Derek Brice, Detective Inspector on the SDS from early 1973 to October 1974, testifies about his management role during a critical period when multiple officers adopted deceased children's identities. His testimony reveals gaps in supervision, awareness of problematic recruitment practices, and concerns about the 'fiefdom' management style of his superior HN294.
00:10:30 all rise please
00:10:49 welcome to day four of evidential hearings at the undercover policing inquiry
00:10:52 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager there is no fire alarm testing expected today so if the fire alarm goes off please follow the fire exit signs and make your way to the master point which
00:11:04 make your way to the master point which is the hard rock hotel great cumberland place
00:11:05 place on arrival at the muster point please make yourself known to a fire marshal who will be wearing a high visibility jacket and who will be keeping a register of all attendees the fire marshals will also be
00:11:18 the fire marshals will also be responsible for letting everyone know when it is safe to return in liaison with representatives from the thistle hotel i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start today's proceedings chairman thank you
00:11:34 proceedings chairman thank you those at the back will know what i'm about to say apologies but it's necessary
00:11:39 necessary you may use any mobile electronic device that you have to transmit silently to the outside world what you have seen and heard in the inquiry but only 10 minutes after the event that you are describing
00:11:55 event that you are describing 10 minutes must elapse before you do it you may not use such a device for recording our proceedings or for taking photographs thank you
00:12:02 thank you ms campbell thank you sir this morning i'll be summarizing the evidence of hn2401 anthony john greenslade
00:12:13 hn2401 anthony john greenslade anthony greenslade assisted the sds as detective inspector during a period of about six months from the summer of 1973 to the end of the year
00:12:32 to the end of the year he provided a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 27th of july 2021 which may be summarized as follows anthony greenslade joined the metropolitan police service as a cadet in 1954 becoming a full constable in 1957.
00:12:40 1957. he joined special branch in 1960 and undertook various postings including in c-squad ports and the section concerned with black power
00:12:51 concerned with black power in 1971 he joined the bomb squad conducting surveillance and inquiry into the actions of the angry brigade it was during this posting that he also became involved with the sds
00:13:06 became involved with the sds he states that he did not consider himself in the sds he was formally on the bomb squad and he confirms that he continued that work
00:13:17 confirms that he continued that work throughout his time assisting the sds he notes that he was running surveillance in the bomb squad excuse me in the bomb squad with di derrick bryce who was at the time also involved in managing the sds
00:13:28 sds and he believes that he was brought in on bryce's recommendation
00:13:36 anthony greenslade supported the squad in an administrative capacity and one and was one of three detective inspectors serving in management positions for the sds at the time
00:13:47 positions for the sds at the time he had had no previous contact with the sds and only knew about it vaguely before becoming involved he confirms that he had not previously done any undercover policing and did not receive any training for the role anthony greenslade indicates that he was
00:14:05 anthony greenslade indicates that he was put onto the sds by chief superintendent rolo watts in order to help in the purchase of 12 cars to be used by undercover officers prior to this period the sds had been renting a small number of vehicles for general sds use something which greenslade notes had been quote a bad experience
00:14:25 he states that he was also tasked to run promotion classes for members of the sds as there had been a bad record of promotional exam success in the squad greenslade did not have experience in training officers in promotion exams prior to this and states that he does
00:14:36 prior to this and states that he does not know why he was picked for this role
00:14:42 he ran weekly sessions of three to four hours at the sds safe house six officers chose to take part in these sessions and greenslade recalls that three of the six were ultimately successful
00:14:53 successful he notes that quote morale was low at the time and i was put on to try and improve morale greenslade cannot recall now how he knew morale was low or what the
00:15:06 how he knew morale was low or what the cause of it was but confirms that this was a known issue he recalls other individuals being put on the sds to help address the problem at the same time
00:15:18 anthony greenslade was involved in finding a second safehouse for the sds
00:15:30 finding a second safehouse for the sds he states that his involvement was quote by accident due to the fact that hn 294 was unwell at the time and derek bryce was preparing to leave he did not have a role in recruiting officers though accepts that he may have recommended one individual who he had previously managed
00:15:44 previously managed he states that he believes officers were recruited quote randomly with no set procedure
00:15:48 procedure the process would have been largely under the control of hn 294 an individual who greenslade describes as the quote kingpin of the sds he recalls that hn294 quote virtually
00:16:02 he recalls that hn294 quote virtually ran the sds as a fiefdom i do not think he was a very he was very good at management
00:16:08 anthony greenslade confirms that he was not involved in training or tasking members of the sds choosing targets developing cover identities or anything to do with intelligence reporting exfiltration pay or overtime
00:16:20 exfiltration pay or overtime he states that he had no role in liaising with the security service or any other outside body
00:16:35 anthony greenslade states that he was not involved in the management of sds officers but maintained contact with them through the promotion classes he also recalls playing cricket with the officers a couple of times as a group
00:16:47 greenslade states that he had a desk in scotland yard with the bomb squad and would attend the sds flat but never worked from the sds office in scotland yard he remembers commander matt roger visiting the sds flat
00:17:00 visiting the sds flat socializing with the undercover officers and offering support he does not remember how often this occurred
00:17:07 he did not have any role in compiling the sds annual reports he states that he did not know why specific groups were targeted but expects that the decisions were largely made by hn294
00:17:19 made by hn294 in consultation with the chief superintendent of c-squad he cannot comment on how successful the infiltrations were or how they may have contributed to policing or assisted the
00:17:31 contributed to policing or assisted the security service as he was not involved in the intelligence side of things
00:17:39 greenslade states that he does not know whether prior permission was required for undercover officers to assume positions of responsibility within their groups
00:17:46 groups or whether any guidance was given on the issue
00:17:50 issue he was also unaware of the use of deceased children's identities he confirms that he did not give any guidance or have any informal discussions with ucos about sexual
00:18:06 discussions with ucos about sexual relationships in their cover identities he states that his attitude to this issue was that any sexual activity between undercover officers and civilians would have been unacceptable
00:18:14 to his knowledge none of his contemporaries provoked or encouraged a third party to commit a criminal offence engaged in sexual activity whilst in their cover identity were arrested tried or convicted in their cover identity
00:18:28 their cover identity were involved in incidents of public order crime or violence reported on any legally privileged information or reported on the activities of elected politicians
00:18:39 politicians he confirms that he did not give any officer
00:18:43 officer orders instructions advice or guidance in relation to any of these issues
00:18:51 when asked to comment on a report concerning personal details about an individual anthony greenslade notes that quote this is the sort of report special branch was always creating it is a normal special branch report
00:19:02 it is a normal special branch report into the background of a person with potential extremist activity i'm not aware of any guidance by the sds as to the level of personal detail which was considered helpful to the reader of the report
00:19:13 the report but there would not need to be because it was standard within special branch
00:19:20 branch everyone would have had the experience of what to do
00:19:26 asked about reporting on trade unions anthony greenslade states that such information would have been reported because special special branch or the security service would have been concerned about disruption to the economy
00:19:39 economy in terms of the contribution made to policing green slate states quote the sds provided advanced warning for demonstrations that was the whole purpose of it
00:19:52 purpose of it i suppose the sds assisted the security service in identifying extremists and plans for possible disruption
00:20:00 he notes that overtime payments were a substantial part of officer pay in on the sds and recalls that hn155 cover
00:20:11 the sds and recalls that hn155 cover named phil cooper was the highest paid detective sergeant in the mps at the time because of overtime despite this greenslade did not get the impression that this overtime influenced officers to stay on the unit longer than they might or
00:20:20 might or influenced them to paint an overly optimistic picture of what they were achieving
00:20:26 achieving anthony greenslade retired from the metropolitan police in 1987 at the right at the rank of detective chief superintendent
00:20:37 superintendent he concludes his witness statement by observing that quote the only matter i wish to add is that i disagreed fundamentally with the principle of undercover policing it was damaging to individuals
00:20:50 it was damaging to individuals many suffered from the work and some left the police afterwards i think some people are psychologically unsuited to that sort of work as i am so that concludes the summary for anthony greenslade
00:21:03 anthony greenslade documents related to that officer will be published by the inquiry today as well as documents related to four other individuals involved with the sds they are
00:21:12 they are hn294
00:21:18 hn294 who is deceased who was detective sergeant in this sds from january 1969 and detective inspector from march 1970 and finally detective
00:21:29 from march 1970 and finally detective chief inspector from november 1972 to march 1974. we would probably we will also be publishing the documents of hn 332 where no statement has been sought due to ill health
00:21:46 health he was just detective inspector in the sds from july 1968 to mid 1969 and head of the sds between september 1971 to february 1972.
00:22:02 uh hn 819 derrick neal who was deceased who was head of the sds between march 1974 and april 1976 and finally hn 357 david bicknell where no statement has been sought due to ill health
00:22:16 has been sought due to ill health who was superintendent of the sds from july 1974 to july 1975
00:22:27 july 1974 to july 1975 and then chief superintendent from august 1976 to early 1977. thank you sir thank you
00:22:35 thank you we'll rise now for 10 minutes to enable the screen to be set up for our next witness
00:22:39 [Music]
00:45:02 all rise please
00:45:27 mr bryce good morning sir good morning um i understand you wish to be sworn thank you
00:45:28 thank you mr fernandez will do the essay thank you mr bryce please place your bible in your right hand and repeat after me
00:45:43 i swear i swear by almighty god my almighty god that the evidence i shall give the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:45:49 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing but the truth thank you chairman mr rice i understand that you would like to give your evidence in 40-minute
00:46:03 to give your evidence in 40-minute stretches with a a quarter of an hour's break in between if that's convenient of course it is i hope this isn't going to be
00:46:18 i hope this isn't going to be proof of one of parkinson's laws that um work expands to fill the time available but we have plenty of time to accommodate your wish thank you
00:46:20 thank you thank you sir can you confirm your full name please derrick william fred price mr bryce it's right that you made a
00:46:35 mr bryce it's right that you made a witness statement to the inquiry dated 15th of september 2021. yes
00:46:37 yes have you had the opportunity to read the statement before giving evidence today
00:46:46 oh yes before yes not today but before today yes yes thank you and can you confirm please that the contents are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they are may we start uh briefly
00:47:00 yes they are may we start uh briefly with your background in the metropolitan police force it's right that you joined as a 19 year old senior cadet in late 1957.
00:47:11 yes and at that point as all officers do you had 13 weeks training at hendon yes
00:47:19 yes following that at the earliest opportunity two years on you joined special branch i did
00:47:27 did and you remained in special branch performing a variety of roles for approximately 14 years before you left the police force in october 1974. that's correct
00:47:38 that's correct when you left it's right you're in the rank of detective inspector having been in that rank since 1971 that's correct can i please um
00:47:50 can i please um deal
00:47:53 deal in a global sense if you like of that time that you're in the metropolitan police force with the training that you received
00:48:01 received you've confirmed the initial training at hendon
00:48:06 hendon do you recall whether you received any additional training when you join special branch no i can't recall any specific training though
00:48:20 though so if i were to ask you whether you have any election recollection of a two-week course that doesn't come to mind to you
00:48:23 to you it doesn't come to mind um
00:48:24 um when you joined the sds in and around that time you completed as it write a four month course at brams hill
00:48:38 could you ask me that question again please
00:48:39 please do you recall completing a course at brums hill in late 1973
00:48:46 late 1973 yes i do
00:48:51 yes i do a few more questions please if i may or on training um whilst you're in the police force do you recall training being given to you
00:49:03 you recall training being given to you um on the legal limits of police powers i can't remember i'll see if i can help in this way were you aware of the limits on a police officer's powers of entry search and seizure
00:49:15 seizure yes
00:49:20 yes were you given any instruction at any stage about whether those powers or limit and limitations on those powers were the same
00:49:32 were the same when you or our officer was acting in an undercover role i can't remember sorry
00:49:43 does it follow with whether you ever addressed your mind when you joined the sts
00:49:46 sts as to whether the limitations on those powers were the same or different
00:49:53 i have no comment to make on that i'm sorry
00:50:00 perhaps i can use an example that may assist in your witness statement you refer to a force memorandum being
00:50:12 you refer to a force memorandum being circulated on two occasions during your service on the subject of agent provocateur do you recall that
00:50:13 that yes i do
00:50:15 yes i do are you able to help with whether that was during your time in special branch on the sds or both well it's in my time in special branch i
00:50:28 well it's in my time in special branch i don't know whether it was during my time on sds
00:50:33 on sds is there any uh reason that you recall that particular piece of guidance
00:50:44 no you have any recollection of other police orders being issued in the same way by way of a circular
00:50:51 i think there may have been the police order issued some time about azure provocateur and if we can have a document please mps-0727104
00:51:06 mr bryce i hope that will come up on a screen that you have
00:51:17 are you able to see that document mr bryce
00:51:20 bryce yes i can yes and you'll see that that's a home office circular dated may 1969 um regarding informants who take part in crime
00:51:33 if we can scroll down please to the second
00:51:37 second page actually remaining where you are sorry the first page
00:51:43 there mr bryce and i'll read it out if it helps that paragraph three a it states no member of a police force and no police informant should counsel incite or procure the commission of a crime
00:51:56 commission of a crime do you have any recollection whether that is the memorandum that you received when you're in special branch i've never seen that memorandum before i was
00:52:11 seen that memorandum before i was offered it as a piece of um exhibit does what's recorded there um fit with your recollection of what you received in relation to agent provocateur
00:52:24 provocateur yes i think that the piece that you read out to me of course rings a bell yes thank you
00:52:29 thank you a couple more questions on training and then we'll move on um during your service in the police force did you have in mind that you needed to police in a way which would maintain the respect of the public
00:52:43 public and the public's approval of your actions
00:52:45 actions yes
00:52:50 yes and did you maintain uh that view whilst you're on the sds
00:52:54 well i would have tried to yes
00:53:03 simile what about police disciplinary regulations do you recall having knowledge of those
00:53:09 um
00:53:15 on well of course yes i was aware of of police discipline regulations of what we could and should do um
00:53:26 um and that's about as far as i can recall thank you mr bryce and i realize i'm asking you to turn your mind back um some years um i'd like to move please to sea squad and your experience there
00:53:39 sea squad and your experience there is this fair to say from your witness statement that early on in your police career you were on c-squad you went off to do other work and then
00:53:54 you went off to do other work and then you returned to c-squad and that was a pattern that you followed yes
00:53:55 yes and you returned to sea squad in 1971 now as detective inspector and remained there until the bomb squad was formed the following year is that right
00:54:08 the following year is that right yes i believe that to be true yes mr bryce you refer to returning to ceo was that the central office yes commissioner's office yeah
00:54:23 yes commissioner's office yeah commissioner's office forgiveness was that based at scotland yard yes
00:54:32 yes whilst you were on sea squad it's right that you dealt with left wing groups is that correct yes
00:54:38 yes can you help a little please as to what your role entailed in that regard in c squad
00:54:46 i would have been supervising the inquiries probably of the dc's and the sergeants
00:54:52 and you said that you don't recall any particular training in special branch how did you come to understand what sort of information the squad wanted
00:55:07 i think i think we would have gained that knowledge from learning as it were on the job as it were you know being passed down
00:55:18 are you able to help us please with how material was collected and retained on c squad
00:55:25 i can't really remember though
00:55:34 now we'll come on to the sds in a short while you said in your witness statement that you
00:55:38 that you had no contact with that squad before becoming involved in it whether or not it came from the sds were you aware of intelligence coming in from other sources
00:55:52 other sources to the assistance of sea squad i wasn't aware of that
00:56:00 and was that throughout your time on sea squad
00:56:06 squad and i'm focusing particularly please on your final stint when you came back in 1971 to see squad do you recall any other intelligence coming in to assist
00:56:15 i can't recall anything though
00:56:24 perhaps you you've already answered this but um let me ask this were you aware of any intelligence or information coming in for onward dissemination for example to a8
00:56:34 a8 public order
00:56:40 yes well i would have been aware that information it was gathered would be passed to them because they were in charge of public order but that's all i remember
00:56:53 and is that from your knowledge uh or an assumption that it would go on to them
00:56:59 them i think it's an assumption that they would have received the information that was available for them
00:57:10 whilst you were working on c squad or indeed anywhere else in special branch did you ever pass requests for intelligence to other units no
00:57:25 the second element of the work on c squad that you refer to in your statement his inquiries for the security service
00:57:38 were those inquiries related to groups and individuals that the security service were interested in
00:57:45 they could have been groups or into and or individuals and was the interest to your understanding of potentially subversive groups and individuals or was it a different reason
00:58:03 i can only assume that it was because they were of subversive elements
00:58:14 were you given any training or guidance on what subversion meant at that time i can't recall okay
00:58:21 okay inquiries for the security service was were any of those relating to vetting
00:58:27 i can't recall that either
00:58:33 final um question relating to c squad you said that you were a supervisor of some of the officers
00:58:44 the officers can you give an idea please of how the
00:58:48 the squad was supervised and managed during your time
00:58:56 it's so long ago i have a problem in remembering that i'm sorry okay i i again i appreciate i'm asking you to turn your mind back um a considerable
00:59:08 turn your mind back um a considerable amount of time and before we move to the sds please you moved in 1972 to the bomb squad and
00:59:19 you moved in 1972 to the bomb squad and there you were also a senior officer on the surveillance unit is that correct yes
00:59:22 yes and you said that the head of the bomb squad was conrad dixon
00:59:29 were you one of yes sorry continue please he was one of the senior officers yes were you aware that he had was the former head of the sds or other of a covert unit
00:59:40 covert unit no it wasn't
00:59:46 did he give you any training or ethos
00:59:52 ethos on the performance of a covert role no okay
00:59:57 let's move now please to the sds
01:00:02 the sds i'd like to begin um with clarifying if we can your start date your initial recollection when you were made um asked to make a witness statement for this inquiry was that you'd been on the unit for
01:00:16 was that you'd been on the unit for approximately you were on the unit sorry for approximately 20 months we know that you left the sds under police force in october 1974 so that would have put your starting
01:00:30 so that would have put your starting date on the sds in and around february or march 1973. so it's right that was your initial recollection i think mr bryce yes now it seems perhaps on receiving the
01:00:43 now it seems perhaps on receiving the bundle of documents from the inquiry for your witness statement you then thought your initial recollection was perhaps incorrect i'm going to suggest to you that your
01:00:56 i'm going to suggest to you that your memory on that your recollection was in fact the right one and that you came on to the sds in around february or march 1973 given the time that you've had to
01:01:13 given the time that you've had to reflect since providing your statement would you now agree with that yes i would
01:01:24 dealing please with your recruitment to the um sds i want to clarify please something that you put in your statement at paragraph 14
01:01:35 14 it doesn't necessarily need to be brought up at the moment and what you said there was that you asked the federation rep what special branch was
01:01:46 federation rep what special branch was before going into it and he said nobody talks about it did you mean there you asked about what the sds was rather than special branch
01:01:58 the sds was rather than special branch no when i asked that question i was a pc aged
01:01:59 aged 20 when i was when there was an application for members to join special margin i asked an old pc what they were
01:02:10 margin i asked an old pc what they were and he he said nobody talks about it so i join
01:02:18 so in fact what's in your statement is correct that the response nobody talks about it was in relation to special branch rather than to the sds itself well
01:02:25 well i think both in some senses yes i didn't know
01:02:26 know okay i had no um
01:02:30 um i didn't apply to join sds whether you can say i was invited or not i'm not sure but that's where i ended up
01:02:43 once you joined the sds did that closed approach remain in the were you able to talk freely certainly amongst members of the sds
01:02:54 certainly amongst members of the sds and the more senior managers about what was happening in the squad
01:03:02 i can't really answer that question i'm afraid i don't recall do you recall whether you were told when you were moving to the sds to keep it a secret
01:03:14 it a secret well no i wasn't told it was a secret but um
01:03:18 but um i think we just left it at that really huh
01:03:19 huh okay
01:03:27 now you've touched on whether or not you were invited you didn't apply to join the sds
01:03:29 the sds um
01:03:31 um in your witness statement your recollection is that you in fact didn't formally join the sds
01:03:43 formally join the sds but sometimes you would be back doing bomb squad work is that correct well the time is so long ago and um i'm i'm probably still a bit confused about what i was doing from time to time
01:03:55 time to time but i'm so i'm okay with those dates you gave me earlier on
01:04:06 gave me earlier on i wonder please um if we can look at a document it may or may not assist um it's can we have first please mps-0737402
01:04:13 so that's tab 15 of your bundle i believe
01:04:25 now this is a fairly difficult document to read mr bryce as seems to trouble us with the documents and it is an organizational chart of
01:04:36 and it is an organizational chart of metropolitan special branch and the sea squad
01:04:46 yes um it is dated albeit there's no date on this particular document we understand july 1973. if i can ask you please to look in the the middle and at the bottom of the document
01:05:02 document can you see there sitting under a chief inspector which reads hn324 there is the special demo as it says and your name is that in the second of those four boxes
01:05:12 yes
01:05:24 now i don't know whether this helps you or not as to whether your recollection that you weren't really on the squad is correct um
01:05:39 correct um it certainly seems as though you are placed on that organizational chart as an inspector in the special demonstration squad i can accept that now yes
01:05:52 whilst we have this document on the screen i'd just like to ask you a couple of supplementary questions please about c squad
01:05:56 c squad could you look to the far left of that page
01:06:00 page and you'll see a box that says sec
01:06:01 sec service inspector
01:06:08 yes we think that may refer to security service inspector are you able to give us any help on what that
01:06:18 that role was
01:06:20 role was i'm afraid it means nothing to me
01:06:27 another rather tricky question and numbers please
01:06:32 please can you recall approximately how many officers there were in sea squad ranked either sergeant or constable
01:06:46 above sergeant or constable of either the rank of sergeant or constable
01:06:50 constable i'm sorry i don't know okay um
01:06:53 um if we can take that document down please
01:07:10 are you able to recall whether there are any lengthy periods of time after you joined the sds when you were off that squad and doing other work
01:07:17 i can't recall
01:07:26 in your witness statement you make reference to the connection of you moving over from the bomb squad surveillance unit to the sds
01:07:38 sds was perhaps a relationship between those two squads
01:07:48 and just a yes or no answer please were you aware of the two units being jointly supervised no
01:07:56 remaining on that connection for a moment
01:07:58 moment is it a fair assessment to say that there was no interview no formal process for joining but it was perhaps more of a word of mouth based on recommendation recommendational
01:08:12 recommendation recommendational reputation that officers moved over to the sds
01:08:16 i can't answer that really thank you
01:08:22 let's just see for a moment if this helps
01:08:26 helps do you recall anthony greenslade another detective inspector yes
01:08:33 yes he was on the surveillance unit with you is that correct yes and for a period of time he was on the sds as well do you recall that yes and in fact i think he was brought on a
01:08:47 and in fact i think he was brought on a couple of months after you joined he um came over in the summer of 1973.
01:08:56 he suggests that he thinks he was probably brought onto the unit at your recommendation do you recall whether you did recommend him
01:09:02 him it's possible i don't recall
01:09:11 an officer we're hearing from tomorrow hn 34 jeffrey craft in his witness statement considers that he may have been brought onto the sds
01:09:22 he may have been brought onto the sds as a result of you having a word with the senior managers i think he came on at the end of your tenure does that ring true with your memory
01:09:34 your memory no i don't recall that
01:09:42 the comment that he makes in his witness statement is that the special branch was a comparatively small place and everyone knew everyone else is that a fair assessment
01:09:52 yes
01:10:06 another officer in the final of this recruitment phase is hn 368 richard walker
01:10:07 walker a
01:10:13 a junior manager that joined once you were leaving he
01:10:14 he states that he was asked to join by you um you'd known each other from a police station years earlier do you have any recollection of that
01:10:27 i don't recall that but it's a possibility if and when you were recommending management level officers come over to the sds
01:10:39 the sds what characteristics or personalities did you consider might work well on the squad that were important
01:10:51 i think they'd have to be officers that would have
01:10:58 a caring approach to the offices that they were supervising
01:11:07 um can we turn please to
01:11:08 to the handover and or any training that you received as a detective inspector on the sds
01:11:17 the sds it's fair to say isn't it that by the time you joined you were an officer of considerable experience in intelligence gathering surveillance and the like
01:11:35 i'm not sure i would say it that way but um if that's what somebody has said well i must accept it
01:11:44 did you feel equipped from your time on sea squad and other areas of special branch for 14 years that you had an idea of what the branch were interested in yes
01:11:58 and did that influence at all how you expected the sds to operate
01:12:07 no not really
01:12:12 and i think it's right isn't it that you say
01:12:13 say for all the experience that you had gained you'd never performed a role in undercover work before moving to the sds i had not performed undercover work
01:12:28 i had not performed undercover work and in fact you yourself didn't perform any undercover work whilst you were on the sds that's correct
01:12:37 now you've made it clear in your statement there was no formal training when you moved over
01:12:44 is does it follow that you weren't provided with any documents or written guidance when you joined the sds
01:12:50 sds i can't recall ever receiving him do you recall ever seeing a black loosely folder that was available to the undercover officers no
01:13:08 what you do say is this right mr bryce that of course you discussed how things were done when you you joined
01:13:13 probably
01:13:19 do you recall that the chief inspector on the unit was hn 294 and you may wish to look at the document you have there
01:13:33 yes
01:13:41 the detective sergeant do you recall was dave smith yes
01:13:49 yes and certainly at the time of you joining there wasn't a dedicated superintendent is that right yes i can't remember that and we've spoken about anthony greenslade that for a
01:14:02 about anthony greenslade that for a short period he was a member of this management team yes
01:14:18 do you recall please any discussion with hn294 as your immediate superior about the purpose of the sds no
01:14:25 in your witness statement you
01:14:28 you say that essentially the purpose boils down to
01:14:32 down to or the justification of why we were doing it in the first place and you make reference to the vietnam solidarity campaign and the demonstrations in 1960
01:14:53 did you discuss with hn294 why the unit was still operating in 1973.
01:15:02 at that point in joining in early 1973 did you gain an understanding about what the remit was of the sds
01:15:15 the remit was of the sds of what they were interested in gradually by talking to the officers yes
01:15:28 and does it follow then that any information that you
01:15:29 that you uh gleaned on which groups were considered to pose a threat to which groups that you were interested in
01:15:37 in was from
01:15:39 was from being on the job rather than hn294 as your chief inspector informing you of how deployments and why deployments
01:15:51 and why deployments were as they were
01:15:58 i would say it's more likely i learned on the job
01:16:10 we've um touched briefly on a8 in relation to c squad in your witness statement you refer to
01:16:19 refer to perhaps an assumption you say that the information the public order purpose was of interest to a8
01:16:30 of interest to a8 and you assume information went to them from the sds is that right i assume it did but does it follow that you're not able to to help with
01:16:44 to to help with how and when the uh intelligence was disseminated to that unit 2a8 that information would have been disseminated and decided upon at a level higher than me
01:16:55 higher than me would that be a level higher but still within the management team of the sds for example the chief inspector
01:17:02 inspector or higher than that rank
01:17:09 probably higher than that
01:17:21 can i ask you this when you're discussing um public order purposes in your witness statement and this is a paragraph 100 you state some organizations were pacifists and caused no problems
01:17:37 pacifists and caused no problems is that something you came to learn on the job on the sds
01:17:45 i can't say i'm afraid if you
01:17:46 if you did come to that understanding whilst you were the detective inspector on the sds
01:17:58 sds would you seek to review a deployment of that particular undercover officer for its justification
01:18:03 i'm not sure i can answer that either i'm afraid
01:18:12 i'll a couple more questions to finish this topic mr bryce and then i think we are about time for our break and did you have any understanding that there was a direct relationship between the sds and c squad
01:18:32 because the yes because the boss i think that chart you showed me earlier the boss
01:18:36 boss of the whole thing was in was in charge of
01:18:36 of everything on c squad which included that little box at the bottom where my name was
01:18:43 name was and i think it's right at this time that you were all on the same corridor in the same building at scotland yard
01:18:54 yes i'm i'm sure we were yes
01:19:09 do you recall whether there was regular and open dialogue between if you were in your office and there was a manager of sea squad in his or her office um
01:19:11 office um that there would be discussion
01:19:17 well i don't recall any particular instances but there would be an opportunity if one wanted it
01:19:29 i i just want to deal please finally before the break with the role of the sds in relation to the security service
01:19:39 did you have any understanding that there was a relationship between the sds and the security service no
01:19:50 no you were provided with a document in the preparation of your witness statement which related to a meeting in january 1974
01:19:57 1974 where you attended along with hn 294 at the security service now it's fair you say you have no recollection of that meeting
01:20:09 meeting yes i have no recollection of it um but i i accept because i've seen the documents
01:20:21 i just want to spend a few minutes um on
01:20:25 on what hn294 recorded of that meeting in case it assists at all with the relationship i i wonder please if we can have a document mps mps-0735753
01:20:39 and starting at page three so this is tab seven of the bundle
01:20:49 mr bryce i'm going to read some parts of that um
01:20:55 that um to you and i'm starting at paragraph two um
01:20:56 um this is a memorandum of hn 294 your chief inspector at the time dated the 15th of january 1974.
01:21:08 time dated the 15th of january 1974. he records in the document at paragraph two
01:21:09 two that
01:21:14 that the meeting that you and he attended was to acquaint you with the intentions of the security service
01:21:21 service to form a new section and it was a section to deal with extremist politics to the left of the communist party
01:21:34 the communist party and he goes on to say that in his assessment the
01:21:43 the security service wanted to ascertain two things and this is a paragraph three the first is whether
01:21:47 whether the sds
01:21:48 the sds would be
01:21:53 would be making their experience available to the security
01:21:58 security service and the second was the attitude of the police if
01:22:00 if they were to come into conflict with the law as an accessory to an offense moving to page four
01:22:11 moving to page four the response that hn294 records that was given at that meeting
01:22:17 meeting was that
01:22:18 was that uh
01:22:19 uh what yes this the sds would assist the security service and information would be freely available and two
01:22:30 and two that
01:22:33 that sds officers were precluded by the home office instructions from any action likely to invite an accusation of their being agent provocateurs
01:22:46 that document can be taken down now thank you
01:22:47 thank you mr bryce do you recall
01:22:51 recall in january 1974 any discussion within the unit of the relationship with the security
01:23:03 the relationship with the security service and the new section that was being
01:23:04 being formed
01:23:05 formed um
01:23:06 um none at all um so if that's a convenient time for a break um
01:23:13 break um certainly um we'll have a quarter of an hour break and we'll be ready to resume at the end of the quarter now thank you thank you
01:39:17 all rise please
01:39:36 mr bryce um i want to deal please with your role as detective inspector at the sds now and that was one that was primarily
01:39:55 and that was one that was primarily supervising officers looking after their safety and their needs is that correct yes i would describe it as a welfare officer in a sense yes and i think in your statement you say it's akin to a quartermaster in the army
01:40:03 army yes
01:40:04 yes um
01:40:09 given that was your role um and i appreciate you said that to your recollection the learning was really on the job rather than by way of a handover i want to spend a few moments more
01:40:24 i want to spend a few moments more looking at some specific areas of that exercising that supervisory function before we deal with the the day-to-day interaction with
01:40:35 interaction with the undercover officers the
01:40:36 the first area pleases is compromise potential compromise of the undercover officers
01:40:51 immediately before or at around the time that you joined the sds three
01:40:52 three officers were unexpectedly
01:41:03 withdrawn from the field without going into any detail do you have any recollection of a quarter of the squad being unexpectedly withdrawn no
01:41:12 no no recollection at all
01:41:18 i'll give you the nominals if you'd like to look at the document you've had just in case that jog's your memory the first is heyten 45
01:41:31 right and then a female officer hn 348
01:41:49 yes and a third officer and i can give you her name it's jill mosdell
01:42:01 they as i say were all withdrawn unexpectedly and in fact it was an incident that was then referenced in the annual report of that year
01:42:07 year it
01:42:11 it is your recollection that your superior hn 294
01:42:17 hn 294 made no mention of that when you came on to the squad
01:42:22 i was not aware of that and i didn't recall
01:42:27 recall the last two people being around when i joined
01:42:39 again without going into details please once you were in your day-to-day life as the detective inspector on the unit did you
01:42:41 did you hear or engage in conversations with the undercover officers about the loss of those three officers
01:42:50 officers no
01:43:01 at targets and tasking uh please
01:43:03 please how
01:43:12 how were you going to approach your daily supervisory role the welfare role in the absence of any information about what your officers were doing which groups that they were infiltrating
01:43:29 their job was very much one based upon trust that they were doing the job but they were supposed to do
01:43:39 and i saw them frequently did you understand it to be any part of your role
01:43:43 your role to conduct a review of their deployments
01:43:52 on the basis of being a supervisory officer yes but it was very difficult because you're not doing their job to actually make worthwhile comments
01:44:09 and did you and we'll come on to the meetings at the safe house but did you keep at the forefront of your mind that
01:44:24 you needed to have this appraisal of whether the groups that they were infiltrating um
01:44:26 um were causing an issue with public order
01:44:37 when you talked about appraisal i thought you were talking about the appraisal of the officer concern not the organizations i didn't have any i can't recollect anything about the organizations themselves
01:44:51 themselves so just to clarify that mr bryce when you
01:44:52 you um
01:44:56 um say that really it was on trust but you you had to keep on top of what your officers were doing
01:45:00 doing was that in relation to assessing the officers rather than making an assessment of the groups that they were infiltrating yes i think that's true
01:45:17 what about the offices would you be assessing
01:45:30 well i mean one met one way would be did they ever put any intelligence work before into the office as it were
01:45:43 and so would you be able to monitor that when you um attended the bi-weekly meetings at the save house
01:45:52 only that you were the messenger or the carrier
01:45:53 carrier of possible notes or something being brought forward for the back office um i couldn't to vouch for that for the um authenticity of the information no
01:46:12 so if an officer were handing nothing or very little in would that cause you to to speak to the officer as to whether there was a problem
01:46:25 but it might do but i can't be specific about that now okay
01:46:34 okay we'll we'll come back when we we move to the safe house um to any assessment of reporting
01:46:35 reporting um
01:46:39 um positions of responsibility i'd like to speak to you about this is something in your witness statement that you say
01:46:45 you say there was no sds policy to your knowledge against undercover officers taking up positions of responsibility and they didn't need to seek permission before they did so
01:46:58 before they did so is that correct that's correct i wasn't aware of that
01:47:11 how did you come to that understanding or was it simply the absence of anything to the contrary
01:47:17 i think it was the absence of i can't remember
01:47:27 in light of the the memorandum that you do recall getting on um asian provocateur did you seek any guidance from your chief inspector
01:47:38 chief inspector uh as to whether it was appropriate for an officer to take a leading role in a group
01:47:39 group no
01:47:41 no did you
01:47:44 did you form any of you in your own mind as to whether that would be appropriate i can't recall forming any opinion
01:47:52 i'd like to ask you please about hn 353
01:48:16 yes that is an officer that you do recall being
01:48:17 being in the sds at the same time as yourself and in fact we will come back to hn 353. he was an officer recruited and in the
01:48:30 he was an officer recruited and in the back office during your tenure in spring 1974.
01:48:33 1974. he in his witness statement has told the inquiry that he was advised never to take an organizational role
01:48:44 never to take an organizational role and that was by a manager in the back office
01:48:45 office do you recall that being you
01:48:49 no i don't
01:49:00 and it's right that at this time the management team was made up in the back office of yourself and dave smith is that right
01:49:03 yes
01:49:10 can we move on please to arrest of undercover officers when you joined hn 298 was a member of the squad
01:49:23 yes
01:49:39 about a year before you joined hn298 had been arrested and subsequently prosecuted and convicted in his cover name and that is the name of mike scott
01:49:41 scott that
01:49:45 that had been managed by your chief inspector hn 294
01:49:49 hn 294 and commander roger as head of the sea squad
01:49:51 squad and he
01:49:53 and he the decision had been taken for him to engage in that matter and be convicted in his
01:50:00 in his covenant
01:50:08 is that something that was brought to your attention of how an officer may be dealt with if he was arrested
01:50:12 no
01:50:19 do you recall having any type of conversation with any of the undercover officers about their knowledge of of what happened with hn 298
01:50:26 hn 298 no
01:50:39 mr bryce we heard yesterday from officer uh from dave smith and uh he said that in the back office there was yourself and him and your chief inspector
01:50:53 and him and your chief inspector and it was a case of you being together there and if a problem arose you would perhaps discuss it and ask one another does that accord with your recollection of how things were done
01:51:06 i think that's a reasonable thing to say yes i
01:51:07 yes i i don't recollect any particular incidents but not all this time later but
01:51:12 but that's a reasonable statement to make
01:51:19 and is that your recollection that it was that sort of reactive approach to any issues rather than
01:51:29 than having guidance and a clear path of how you were going to manage the unit
01:51:37 i'm not sure i can comment on that really
01:51:43 perhaps let me ask it in this way when you
01:51:45 when you went to the back office went to go and look after the welfare of your officers did you have any clear policy or guidance in your mind
01:51:58 guidance in your mind in terms of compromise arrest positions of responsibility of how you would guide and supervise them
01:52:12 i saw them on a twice weekly basis and so i would like to feel that um
01:52:13 um any issues would have been brought to my attention um
01:52:21 um which is why i say it was very much like a welfare
01:52:22 a welfare function or role
01:52:30 outside of you performing the welfare role
01:52:34 role um it's right that as and when needed you stood in as head of the unit as acting chief inspector didn't you yes
01:52:42 yes and
01:52:46 and it's right that that was a role you took on
01:52:58 on from time to time throughout your tenure from february march 1973 up to leaving in october 1974. is that right
01:53:02 did the absence of any
01:53:07 firm policy on
01:53:12 policy on being head of the unit and how you would deal with the officers caused you concern
01:53:19 no and certainly until the mid part of
01:53:30 1974 would you agree that in the absence of a dedicated superintendent if there was a problem and you were acting chief inspector effectively the book stopped with with you
01:53:39 you you were making the decisions
01:53:46 well in any supervisory role i think the point there is that had i have required further assistance i would have gone to the next person up in rank which would probably have been a cheap superintendent
01:54:02 and to your memory would that be somebody who was on the same corridor at scotland yard yes okay
01:54:16 before we move to those meetings can i spend a moment please on the management style of hn294
01:54:31 anthony greenslade your colleague in the surveillance unit and then fellow detective inspector on the sds has described him 294 as being the kingpin of the sds
01:54:43 kingpin of the sds and running it as a fiefdom does that do you agree with that statement
01:54:53 yes i think it's a fair statement from mr greene's right
01:55:02 was your assessment that han
01:55:03 han 294 would
01:55:09 keep his own his decision-making to himself effectively rather than share the role with you
01:55:20 yes this man is dead and i
01:55:22 and i but i think it's a fair statement
01:55:34 did at the time you feel that had any impact on your ability to perform your own role
01:55:35 own role no
01:55:41 no it was not just
01:55:48 not just hn294 he was your chief inspector about a year into your service um he was replaced with derrick neal as chief inspector do you recall that well i know derek neal but i don't recall
01:55:58 recall as it were being answerable to him when i was on the sds
01:56:05 the sds but it is possible so is your main memory of hn294
01:56:11 of hn294 in the
01:56:15 in the chief inspector role yes and as you said earlier
01:56:16 earlier i was often doing the acting role because he was sadly i think a person who suffered from ill health which is why i was acting right i think that you recall
01:56:27 that you recall david bichnell becoming the superintendent in and around the time that the sds
01:56:38 in and around the time that the sds moved to the s squad do you remember him playing a role in the management yes he was the person that i would have been answerable to when i was acting chief inspector yes
01:56:57 did that have any impact on how the sds was run when david bicknell came on board
01:57:07 well he was a an approachable senior officer and therefore obviously life would be a little easier he was there if we wanted him
01:57:19 and do i take it from that mr bryce that you're drawing a comparison with how approachable or not hn 294 was
01:57:28 possibly yes
01:57:33 some people are more approachable than others
01:57:39 before we have our next break and we still got some time um let's uh have a little look at your your day-to-day role please
01:57:50 day-to-day role please i want to ask you about procurement of vehicles
01:57:52 vehicles when you joined in february march 1973 did each undercover officer have their own vehicle
01:58:08 i'm not sure everyone each had one but um i can't really be any more certain than that
01:58:17 were you aware that until early 73 there was a pool of only three to four vehicles that were higher vehicles that the
01:58:23 the operational officers shared yes i think that's highly likely
01:58:34 so it's highly likely but it's something that
01:58:39 that wasn't in your direct knowledge is that well
01:58:40 well i say that because um i i wasn't aware that i had many vehicles to look after if they were hired ones it wouldn't have been down to me
01:58:57 i want to move please to the back office where you were your chief inspector and hm 103 david smith
01:59:09 if there were any new recruits to the sds such as as officers who were going to be deployed in the future it's right is it that they would also spend time in the back office
01:59:24 yes i think that's probably right i can't recall any individual but i think that's right
01:59:30 and once an officer i think this is what your evidence is in your witness statement once an officer had been asked to join the sds effectively they were then yours to look after
01:59:46 they were then yours to look after not while they were doing their stint in the office
01:59:51 but you would see them on a day-to-day basis in in the office if i was in the office yes but very often i was not in the office and when you weren't in the office it's
02:00:06 and when you weren't in the office it's right that twice a week you were at the the safe house at the meetings yes
02:00:07 yes and for the remainder of the time was this the case if you worked monday to friday in this role yes um
02:00:16 um if you weren't at the safe house meetings would you be in the back office more than likely
02:00:29 let's still please with new recruits the officer that you do recall joining during your tenure is hn 300. i don't if you'd like to remind yourself of the name
02:00:45 yes
02:00:50 in fact other officers in addition to hn 300 were also recruited and spent time in the back office
02:01:02 in about the middle of your service there
02:01:09 there hn 353 was one and that's an officer that i think you do recall in your witness statement
02:01:23 yes that officer came into the back office in spring 74 and appears to have been reporting by about june of that year do you recall that officer in the back office no
02:01:31 office no hn 351 was another and to be fair mr bryce in your witness statement you do say you don't recall
02:01:41 i don't recall them
02:01:44 what about hn 200.
02:02:04 yes i recognize him and he was an officer that came into um the squad in about april 74. and does do you recall this he remained in the back office
02:02:16 in the back office until the end of your tenure essentially till october of that year
02:02:25 i'm not absolutely sure that i thought he would have gone from out of the back office
02:02:29 office while i was still serving but i can't be certain
02:02:38 uh and hn 297 and i can give you his actual name it's richard clark yes
02:02:39 yes he joined you in summer of 1974. do you remember him i don't remember him at all i know who it is but i don't remember him
02:02:49 him in my time in sds we'll come back on to
02:03:02 we'll come back on to your memory of him uh in a little while so we will come back to richard clark these officers that were in the back office so to your memory you do remember hn 300 and hn 200.
02:03:18 yes but all of the officers that i've mentioned to you used the identity of a deceased child sorry can you ask me another game um
02:03:27 um the officers that we've just spoken about
02:03:28 about all joining in the middle if you like of your tenure all used uh the identity of a deceased child
02:03:38 child do you recall that no i'm not aware of that
02:03:46 i i just want to explore for a few moments please you you said in your witness statement that when the officers came to you they had a cover identity
02:03:58 what the officers have described either in their witness statements or in oral evidence
02:03:59 evidence is that
02:04:03 is that once on the sds and in the back office they would develop their cover identity
02:04:16 let's look at an example perhaps hn353 who we've spoken about that you recall
02:04:28 yes he in his witness statement said he was told to go to somerset house to update obtain the details to develop his cover identity did you tell him to do that certainly not
02:04:46 hn 200 who you recall challenged the instruction
02:04:53 yes uh hn200 challenged the instruction to use a deceased child's identity as it didn't sit comfortably with him and that led to
02:05:04 led to a discussion about why he needed a birth certificate and that was during his time in the back office
02:05:17 office do you recall a conversation with him of that nature do you recall overhearing any such conversation
02:05:37 david bicknell who you say was your superintendent for a period addresses the use of such identities in a witness statement given some years ago to operation hearn in 2015 he described
02:05:53 he described at this time with these officers that it was a practical solution to a problem that
02:05:57 that the sds was facing in creating plausible identities did david bicknell discuss the need for these identities with you as head of the unit at that time never
02:06:19 as acting chief inspector did you give any consideration to the importance of knowing how robust or not your officers identities were when they were going out into the field each day
02:06:35 not especially now
02:06:52 mr bryce let's move on from that area please to training of these new recruits and i'll take this uh shortly um
02:07:07 the officers in their witness statements describe much of their learning um was on the job as i think you've described and that
02:07:22 and that collectively say that they would speak to deployed officers to get some information does that accord with how you understood them to be trained
02:07:32 yes i think their ability to meet collectively that was one of the advantage of it they could pick each other's brains really
02:07:44 pick each other's brains really on the topic of picking brains miss um hn200
02:07:46 hn200 has stated that he would
02:07:56 yes that he would go to senior officers if he wanted to to pick a person's brain as to
02:08:02 to how to go about his role do you recall interactions with him about how he should perform his
02:08:14 about how he should perform his day-to-day role i don't recall any reaction there no at all interaction
02:08:23 hn 351
02:08:26 351 353 and 200 who we've been speaking about were all to infiltrate uh the international socialists then become
02:08:38 international socialists then become known as the socialist workers party did you become aware or were you involved in the decision to deploy those three officers into that group i was not involved in that deployment
02:08:57 let's start if we may dealing with the bi-weekly meetings
02:09:03 is your recollection that there were two safe houses when you joined the sds
02:09:14 possibly i i just think i'm um
02:09:17 um [Music]
02:09:24 i think it went at one point when i joined there was only one
02:09:36 without going into details at this stage did you
02:09:37 did you uh come to understand why there was one and then there was an additional one of why that happened
02:09:49 i think it made sense to have an alternative yes
02:10:00 the meetings at the safe house were described in the annual report for the year when you were in the sds uh
02:10:12 uh as having two purposes essentially one was an opportunity to discuss and identify problems and future targets and the other was to afford an
02:10:24 and the other was to afford an opportunity to assess the behavior of operational officers
02:10:32 officers so that any pressures operational or otherwise could be diagnosed and remedied
02:10:39 is that a fair assessment of the purpose that you understood them to be for yeah that's pretty fair you've described the undercover role as a gutsy job
02:10:51 a gutsy job which was awful to do and scary at times focusing on your time in the sds how did you come to form that opinion
02:11:04 i think the whole nature of undercover work is um
02:11:13 is um we need a few a bit of guts to do it and it's a it can be risky and it's only possible by certain people
02:11:22 and you you give the example in your witness statement that then it was important that the officers saw their contemporaries shared some camaraderie together and would it be fair to be able to be
02:11:35 and would it be fair to be able to be relaxed and to be free in talking to one another
02:11:37 another yes
02:11:43 can you help please describe how
02:11:44 how a day would be run how the day would go when you went to one of the safe houses
02:11:55 oh we would have met probably mid-morning um we would have somehow eaten together around the lunch period
02:12:06 around the lunch period and there was an opportunity then for either a one-to-one chat or
02:12:13 chat or um meetings with smaller groups of people
02:12:19 and having met mid-morning would the meeting
02:12:21 meeting run for the remainder of the day
02:12:29 well i think they would probably have finished round about
02:12:34 four o'clock because there may have been work to be done later on because most a lot of their work tended to be that sort of
02:12:40 of start of the day onwards
02:12:47 were you aware or involved if there wasn't
02:12:50 wasn't anywhere the officers were going at around four o'clock might from time to time they socialize outside of the safe house
02:13:01 well i didn't particularly socialize outside of the safe house i'm not saying others didn't i wouldn't know okay
02:13:19 let's spend a few moments up until the break to deal with the business side of things if you like at the meetings and then we'll deal with welfare afterwards um you you stated in your witness statement that
02:13:25 that some officers wrote down their intelligence at the meetings um and it's others simply handing a a manuscript report to you yeah yeah
02:13:40 report to you yeah yeah those that wrote um their intelligence their information down at the meeting
02:13:46 was there discussion about what might be included or excluded in what they wrote
02:13:55 no i would have collected or whoever was with me collected the information as it was offered
02:14:04 do you recall david smith sometimes coming to those meetings
02:14:11 well he might have done he wasn't it wasn't his regular job but i'm not saying he didn't turn up sometimes
02:14:21 um earlier in your evidence you said one way of assessing the officers was by the quantity of reports that may come in are you able to help with the sort of
02:14:36 are you able to help with the sort of volume of reporting that was coming in twice a week at the meetings no i can't really
02:14:53 i won't bring it up but um so for reference the document is ucpi five zeros one six three five
02:14:57 five mr bryce that is simply an intelligence report
02:14:59 report that you signed in august 1974 when you were acting chief inspector
02:15:09 and that's one example of when an intelligence report came across your desk
02:15:18 desk do you recall from time to time signing intelligence reports
02:15:24 well i have seen one or two in the document so i can't recall them individually of course but it is a possibility and there's one example
02:15:38 and from that example i'm not for now interested in the content it's simply if it does to help your recollection when that came to you to sign would you read it first yes
02:15:48 yes would you make any assessment of its contents
02:15:54 no i wouldn't necessarily be in position to question his content and therefore my job was to send it further up the line and what was the purpose in reading it before you signed it
02:16:08 before you signed it well i think it would be wise to read it before you sign anything and so when you were reading it if something jumped out at you would you then take it up with the individual officer
02:16:24 well i if it was something um particularly um
02:16:33 outrageous or something important and or i knew something which maybe wasn't true then of course i would question them i don't recall any of the those that happening any time
02:16:49 those that happening any time what sort of content would cause you to say this is outrageous i need to deal with it
02:17:00 i i can't think of something at the moment i'm afraid okay
02:17:14 two examples before before we break if i may
02:17:15 may um
02:17:16 um hn 343
02:17:19 hn 343 was an officer in the squad
02:17:33 oh yeah do you recall that officer yes
02:17:38 yes um in his witness statement um his evidence is that he recalls conversations with yourself and the chief inspector and giving an update on the situation in his group which was the international socialists
02:17:50 socialists do you recall discussions with with him specifically i don't recall those discussions though
02:18:03 hn 299-342
02:18:08 299-342 i'll just give you a chance to look at that officer's details
02:18:24 yes do you recall that officer yes
02:18:26 yes in his uh witness statement he recalls that on occasion at these meetings at the safe house he was asked to attend specific meetings or
02:18:38 to attend specific meetings or demonstrations so given some task direct tasking requests does that accord with your recollection well that is possible i don't recall myself particularly
02:18:51 myself particularly detailing him to go to a particular place but it's possible and finally on this topic before the break
02:18:59 break what you do say is that deployments would be
02:19:02 would be discussed if an officer was having a sticky time could you help us please with what you meant by the sticky time
02:19:10 i think as we mentioned earlier i was uh
02:19:16 i was always i was always i tried to be aware that um whether they were comfortable um in the job they were doing and
02:19:28 job they were doing and i'd like to think that you would have been able to perhaps spot that um
02:19:30 um and
02:19:33 and there came a time or there would come a time
02:19:34 time when
02:19:36 when people might want not to continue doing the job they were doing
02:19:41 doing so in other words i described that as when things got a bit difficult in terms of maybe they were i don't know apprehensive about being exposed
02:19:59 on that point in case this assists you hn 343 who we discussed a moment ago
02:20:15 yes he described in his witness statement that he'd had enough of life as an undercover officer as a single young man being deployed made it difficult to have a personal life
02:20:25 life and he spoke to management and was asked to come off the unit and found a supportive response in that is that an example of what you're referring to as a sticky time
02:20:42 i think we can assume that's a reasonable comment to make yes do you recall having a conversation with that officer about his wish to leave i don't recall it
02:20:55 so if that's a convenient point for our our next break certainly thank you mr price 15 15-minute break then your evidence will resume and then we'll have a break for lunch a rather longer than 15-minute break
02:21:10 than 15-minute break content with that good thank okay
02:37:19 all rise please
02:37:39 mr bryce before we move on to welfare um i just want to ask uh for a clarification from one point in your witness statement it's paragraph 29 you say that detective sergeant smith and the chief inspector had a direct
02:37:56 and the chief inspector had a direct line of communication that excluded you as a supervisor can you just explain what you meant by that what i meant was that they they sat um in two adjacent desks in the same office
02:38:06 office okay
02:38:08 okay so it was no more than that it was simply that they were there and i didn't have a desk cause i didn't need one particularly so there they were side by side in the office
02:38:24 um let's move on then please to um welfare and we're going to come back to this part of your statement in a moment but you say that officers wouldn't necessarily tell their detective inspector everything
02:38:36 detective inspector everything does it follow from that that an important part of your supervisory and welfare role was to observe the officers carefully at the meetings um
02:38:53 officers carefully at the meetings um and essentially to keep an ear to the ground as to what was happening yes that would be fair without giving any names um [Music]
02:39:05 [Music] what were the welfare concerns of the officers when you were attending the meetings i think as we um you indicated before the break
02:39:19 indicated before the break um if people were feeling that they were um
02:39:20 um fed up with that sort of life um i i'd be looking for that sort of behavior
02:39:27 behavior um
02:39:32 um in their usual or unusual mannerisms as the case may be and then invite a situation where you want to talk about this um
02:39:47 um because i think that was probably the most important thing of all were there any other welfare concerns secondary to that
02:40:00 well not that i can put my finger on at the moment um
02:40:01 um i think that was our main concern whether they felt in their own mind that they were safe in invert
02:40:20 when anthony greenslade came on to the sgs in summer of 1973 his
02:40:24 his evidence in his witness statement is that
02:40:25 that one of the reasons for him coming on was that morale was low amongst the officers do you remember being that
02:40:37 do you remember being that being the kind of atmosphere at the time no i wasn't
02:40:42 did you have any concerns about the morale of your officers in well not that they can recall now and i'm surprised to hear that statement now
02:40:58 you've referred to sharing a meal together having drinks and
02:40:59 and um
02:41:05 um relaxing did that include alcoholic drinks in the afternoon no
02:41:08 no did you ever consume any alcohol at the meetings
02:41:13 meetings i was not an encourager of alcoholic drinks and oh no what about you the officers the undercover officers well it wasn't it wasn't permitted during the what i call the official
02:41:26 the official um meeting time in the safe house we didn't have alcohol when we broke up and you asked me this before
02:41:34 before what happened after that when i had no uh control over is that the period you say when the meeting came to an end at about four o'clock and then we went on our separate ways yes right
02:41:53 now during your period of time there were no female
02:41:56 female undercover officers on the unit were there
02:41:57 there that's true i think yes and so it goes to follow that it was a male-dominated environment for the the 20 months or so that you were there
02:42:13 well i suppose numerically that's a fair statement to make yes hn 353
02:42:17 hn 353 who you recalled
02:42:30 oh yes describes um they're being friendly banter at the meetings is that fair
02:42:38 yes i'm sure that there was
02:42:44 another officer who joined the sds shortly after you left
02:42:55 joined the sds shortly after you left has described occasion when the friendly banter would turn to comments on female members of the groups that were infiltrated or comments and reputation of the officers and on sexual interactions of the officers
02:43:07 the officers was that a fair description of the banter that took place when you were on the sds
02:43:13 the sds no i wasn't aware of that at all and then and you're saying that happened to him after my time
02:43:26 what sort of banter do you recall hearing anything that caused you concern
02:43:35 well i'm not aware of anything that did cause me concern really and certainly i wouldn't have gone along with the suggestion that that was banter about females
02:43:46 females if you'd have heard such type of banter would you have dealt with it yes
02:43:48 yes the the same officer um describes that managers would essentially turn a blind eye to such a banter at these informal meetings
02:44:05 a banter at these informal meetings um would that be fair to you or your superior at your time not in my time no
02:44:11 let's go back to your comment that officers wouldn't necessarily have told their detective inspector what they were doing if we can have paragraph the statement is mps-0747802
02:44:30 and paragraph 117 please i'm sorry i don't have a page reference
02:44:40 mr bryce this is your witness statement that's being brought up onto the screen thank you
02:44:50 is it that you thought officers might be keeping from their managers
02:44:58 what i mean there is this that because the job was so unique and individual i wouldn't have an opportunity to challenge
02:45:07 challenge first of all it's authenticity and and whether there is missions or not if i was supervising say a younger detective on a crime investigation i could check back on certain things but because it
02:45:21 back on certain things but because it was undercover that's not possible from a position that i was holding in sds i had to take these things at face value so when i say that it is possible that
02:45:32 so when i say that it is possible that some of the things that were done were not reported i stand by that statement because i can't prove one way or the other i can't go out there and find out for myself
02:45:44 for myself what things are you referring to mr bryce
02:45:48 well i think
02:45:53 i'm not quite sure i understand the question because um what
02:45:58 what people
02:45:59 people don't necessarily tell everybody everything and certainly in a working environment that's that's what i meant by my statement um i have to take it at face value
02:46:13 um i have to take it at face value and there may be things that i wasn't told of course
02:46:19 if i can just give you an opportunity to read to yourself um paragraph 117 of your statement which i hope is on your screen
02:46:31 oh yes
02:46:58 yes i'd read that again thank you in that paragraph you're discussing aren't you the the difference as you see it in the moral standards between then and now
02:47:16 discussing that officers in your view this was their day job they weren't living together with activists
02:47:21 activists and this is where we have the comments that they would not necessarily have told the detective inspector what they were doing
02:47:32 were doing and it's really then that final part of the sentence that i'm interested in is that you follow from your comments that they wouldn't necessarily have told you
02:47:38 you what they were doing that you were pretty confident they all went home eventually i i i stand by that because i think life has changed um
02:47:54 because i think life has changed um certainly as it was though then in the early 70s
02:47:56 early 70s and
02:47:56 and what i meant there was that the job certainly wasn't nine to five because i said earlier some of the work took place
02:48:07 took place in the evenings but i was fairly confident that um in that day and age cohabitation for example wasn't common usage
02:48:17 usage people weren't identified right left and center by where they were on their mobile phones in other words
02:48:28 phones in other words you took people more on trust and so what i mean is that um maybe life was more simple and straightforward then and what i'm what i mean is that they were
02:48:41 were as far as i was concerned the job they did primarily i think was i would say evening activity um most meetings for example uh take place in
02:48:52 place in in the evenings so there would be a tendency to do the work the undercover work
02:49:05 work and then resume some sort of normal life with one's normal family and when i've named me
02:49:12 named me in other words to go home afterwards and as far as one can pick up normal life again
02:49:15 again then it there perhaps was a a clearer distinction between the undercover work and
02:49:31 and ordinary life as it was in those days mr bryce was that any reference to the possibility that an officer might be developing a close relationship with a member of the group they were
02:49:42 with a member of the group they were infiltrating whether it be a friendship or an intimate relationship one that they wouldn't tell you about but they would go home from at some point
02:49:54 point of course i have to say that is a possibility
02:50:02 but i want i would just say a possibility i can't say any more than that because i don't know was it a possibility that was in your mind back in the time you were in the unit no it wasn't
02:50:15 wasn't um that possibility is only because what i've learned in the national press since about sds
02:50:23 staying
02:50:29 on the topic of relationships and reputation i'm going to return please to deal with two officers that we've spoken about hn 300 who you recalled
02:50:42 and
02:50:47 yes and hn297
02:50:50 and hn297 clark
02:50:51 clark yes
02:50:54 yes um please can you bring up document mps-0724152
02:51:08 uh and scroll please to page two
02:51:10 two three
02:51:10 three um
02:51:12 um mr bryce this is a memorandum written by chief inspector neil and dated the 31st of may 1974 so when you were still on the unit
02:51:25 so when you were still on the unit the first point i want to deal with please is married offer married officers if you look there please at paragraph two
02:51:36 two references made to hn 300
02:51:41 300 seen indicated a willingness to join he's a married man who lives with his wife and child
02:51:53 who lives with his wife and child if we then move to paragraph three d.c richard clarke who is hn 297 willing to join [Music]
02:51:58 [Music] he is a married man aged 29 with children
02:52:02 children so dealing with that point first if we may
02:52:09 in your witness statement you recall that as you gained experience on the unit you understood that those that were recruiting looked at personal circumstances and that preference was given to
02:52:24 and that preference was given to a prospective recruit who was married is that right yes the officers that we've spoken about who were recruited during your time were all married
02:52:43 were all married was that a policy that you understood to be developed whilst you were on the sts well it could have been yes
02:52:50 now in your well can you explain what you thought the purpose and and the advantage was of recruiting a married officer please
02:53:03 officer please i think my um concern would be primarily that at the end of an operation or a day's work or whatever they would by definition hopefully return
02:53:12 return to
02:53:13 to an established home life in this case with their wives and possibly their children that to me meant there was um it was
02:53:32 in inverse slightly more stable and safer than the other possibility
02:53:38 are you aware whether the the families of these officers were made aware of the role that they were expected to play to be providing that break that stable home life
02:53:52 well i'm not aware that wives are actually ever interviewed or or um but i think there was a consideration that must have been given i i was never really involved in the selection of these people that
02:54:03 these people that appear on these lists um i i i we never sort of sat down and said who we got next
02:54:14 who we got next they sort of emerged from somewhere probably more senior up the scale maybe it was recommendation amongst more senior officers saying this person might be suitable for
02:54:28 saying this person might be suitable for this type of work and it would come down the line rather than go up and on that point if
02:54:34 if an officer arrived to you and your chief inspector
02:54:38 inspector that you had a different opinion about would you be able to challenge their suitability for the unit with your superiors
02:54:50 well um i think i would be expected to if i if i had grounds to do that um and i think i would have a duty to do that as well if for some reason i felt that that person after all wasn't
02:55:03 person after all wasn't quite suitable for the job but i don't recall this ever happening
02:55:09 david bicknell in his witness statement suggested that the reason married men were chosen was it was considered less of a temptation for them to enter into inappropriate relationships with women
02:55:25 inappropriate relationships with women was that also a consideration that you understood at the time
02:55:30 well i didn't say that and but i understand what he's saying i i hopefully i put it in a different way to
02:55:42 hopefully i put it in a different way to your earlier question that i felt it was a safer and more stable place to go to when they'd done their job um
02:55:48 um can i perhaps ask it like this by mid 74 was there a live issue that there was at least a risk that male officers infiltrating groups would engage in intimate relationships
02:56:06 well i can't answer that question specifically of course of course there was always a risk but i wasn't aware of that risk
02:56:17 but i wasn't aware of that risk during the latter part of my time or indeed any of my time on sds but then
02:56:18 but then how would i have known anywhere
02:56:24 whether the officers were married or not the job of the officers were to go into a group
02:56:31 a group pretend to be single and to befriend people in that group is that right
02:56:45 i think that's an assumption then when you start out in this job but um you say single i'm i wasn't aware that it ever came up whether a person had to admit they were single or married or whatever
02:56:58 or whatever um if they were just going to do the routine job [Music]
02:57:02 [Music] i don't know i can expand on that any further let's move them please to just one or two questions um
02:57:12 um the length of service that david bicknell as your superintendent in his witness statement said that two years was the maximum length that he
02:57:24 was the maximum length that he considered an officer should be in the role
02:57:27 role the reason being that they didn't forget that they were police officers some of the officers in the the squad when you joined were on for up to five years
02:57:41 five years so well in excess of that two-year maximum
02:57:43 maximum did you have any concerns about long-term deployments and the risks that they carried
02:57:57 i think big no statement is a reasonable one um i would have been more concerned about the length of time that they remained as it were safe and secure in that job
02:58:09 let's go back please to hn 30297
02:58:26 yes both of those officers had at some time been on the surveillance unit did you know any either of them from your connection with that unit no i don't uh
02:58:37 uh if um
02:58:40 if um we won't have it back up the memorandum that i showed you someone had spoken to them it seems that the behest of chief inspector neil
02:58:51 the behest of chief inspector neil do you recall speaking to either of these officers about joining sds yes no
02:59:03 can we have a please document mps 0741094
02:59:12 mr bryce what's being put up is an appraisal of hn297 now you weren't the person appraising him but i want to take a look at
02:59:26 but i want to take a look at the view that was taken of him in january 1975
02:59:37 you'll see there that it reads d.c clarke has recently shown remarkable abilities during a period of difficult surveillance work among these are an enthusiastic and intelligent use of available intelligence to full advantage and an
02:59:52 intelligence to full advantage and an ability to work extremely well in a team he shows qualities of leadership under pressure which will fit him well for promotion to sergeant
02:59:59 sergeant it's later then that year in the summer that he is brought on to the sds the question i'd like to ask you as a result of that and it can be mr bryce are you still reading it all
03:00:13 mr bryce are you still reading it all no i did read it i i think i got to the end
03:00:16 end thank you if that can be taken down um
03:00:17 um what an appraisal such as that what you may consider a glowing appraisal way in the balance of whether to recruit an officer to the sds
03:00:34 yes i i don't quite i don't see the connection quite between the team
03:00:39 the team leadership that's required for surveillance and as distinct from work on the sds because the sds
03:00:50 work on the sds because the sds until we met together twice weekly was very much an individual role they played so i don't see the connection that one makes it obvious for the other if that makes sense
03:01:04 i think what i i'm driving at is in
03:01:11 in the recruitment to the sds a closed secret unit would a reputation be it good or bad be important on knowing where
03:01:23 knowing where who should be brought on by those involved in recruiting
03:01:31 i don't really i can't really answer how this process of recruitment started up at all
03:01:45 started up at all in terms of who discussed what with who um but what i think i said earlier on was that very often the candidate was presented um
03:01:57 was presented um i i don't have any recollection myself of being involved at the very early stages of recommending people particularly for sds work
03:02:03 we'll return to that in a moment um
03:02:09 hn 300
03:02:10 300 an officer
03:02:13 who
03:02:26 was in the back office who you recall being on the sds would it be fair to say that you would have weekly if not daily interaction with that officer
03:02:36 well i would have a interaction with him if he was in the back office yes but not
03:02:40 but not that frequently hn 300
03:02:47 hn 300 has been described during evidence to this inquiry as having a reputation for falling in love all over the place were you aware from your time
03:03:01 were you aware from your time in special branch not just the sds but the wider special branch of that reputation i didn't know this man very well and i'm not sure i don't think he was ever properly engaged on sds operations while i was still there so i'm not aware
03:03:16 i was still there so i'm not aware of that reputation and of course i i left the
03:03:17 left the the the the force at the end of i think october 74. so i don't know about any reputation that he might have had
03:03:36 hn 297 who by the time you left in october that's richard clark if i can assist um had been with the sds albeit in the back office for
03:03:44 for three or four months has been described as having a reputation again in special branch not just within the sds
03:03:51 sds as being a womanizer and to the degree that an officer has described him as a carnival
03:04:02 described him as a carnival were you aware of his reputation no i wasn't
03:04:06 wasn't from your observations of him during that time did you form any such few well i don't remember him actually being certainly not on on the squad or
03:04:18 certainly not on on the squad or i can't remember him in the back office either
03:04:25 i just want to come back to that the point um
03:04:27 point um of who was suitable to be on the squad i understand what you say that you had no involvement in recruitment but you have said that if you were
03:04:39 but you have said that if you were presented with an officer and told this person's coming to join you and you felt that they just weren't suited it would be a duty to
03:04:48 to raise that what view if any would you take if you were presented with an officer
03:04:59 if you were presented with an officer who'd had a good reputation for the work product
03:05:00 product and considered to be a strong and safe pair of hands was a married officer an officer with children so hence a stable home life from your description
03:05:14 description but that had a reputation for being a womanizer would that cause you to say this person is not suitable to infiltrate groups in an undercover role
03:05:26 well it's not something that happened to me at the time if i was presented with that situation
03:05:37 in the two then it would be something i would want to consider i think greater um because clearly
03:05:42 clearly there was a big degree of trust involved in
03:05:49 deploying these people in this sort of work
03:05:50 work um
03:05:51 um i wasn't particularly on the angle of womanizing or whatever but but it was the trust aspect of it
03:06:07 but but it was the trust aspect of it which i think is more important and um and maybe when a person has that said about them that would to me raise a doubt about um perhaps the whole question of integrity
03:06:17 i appreciate i'm asking you to say what you think you may have done as opposed to being a situation you were faced with but would it be a matter of it being a balancing exercise and seeing where the balance fell
03:06:29 balance fell or
03:06:30 or would it be a this is concerning we won't have this sort of person on the sds
03:06:41 i find that question very difficult to answer really i'm sorry
03:06:52 final few topics mr bryce i hope we can deal with them before the lunch break i just want to spend a few moments on as you learned on the job the views that you developed
03:07:06 the views that you developed you have said in your witness statement that from time to time you would consider how to improve the unit can you expand on that a little please how to improve it
03:07:25 i can't think of anything specific in my time
03:07:32 time and i'm only speaking from the months or the year and a bit i spent on it um we
03:07:38 we we might have benefited from even a more frequent um
03:07:43 number of meats um
03:07:45 um and then and not that i felt it was wrong at the time i think what i'm saying here is that um that you can't have too many
03:07:58 that you can't have too many opportunities to meet people who are dealing with uh difficult work situations whether they are within a group as we were in the safe houses or as individuals
03:08:10 individuals um
03:08:12 um so maybe we could have had more one-to-one situations than we actually did although people were able to ask for one-to-one situations even when
03:08:26 ask for one-to-one situations even when we met together at safe houses sometimes things were confidential do you recall now having any one-to-ones do i recall having any
03:08:38 one-to-ones do i recall having any one-to-one meetings that request being made yes
03:08:39 made yes um
03:08:43 um again for the moment not going into d so do you recall what the concern was leading to those one-to-one meetings
03:08:58 people may have may have had a problem about feeling for the time being a bit less secure than they'd been or
03:09:07 or they might have had a domestic situation which
03:09:12 which would cloud their ability to do this difficult work um
03:09:16 um or they might want to change their cover operation in terms of maybe
03:09:26 maybe a job or something or something like that
03:09:30 that so they were the sort of things that we were available to discuss and they would have been dealt with on a one-to-one situation yes
03:09:40 and so if it was a welfare consideration um such as home life that would be something that you were equipped to deal with yourself would it well not just me i mean
03:09:48 i mean but i was the first port of call in a sense because i like to feel that in the time i was there i had developed a trustworthy
03:09:59 i had developed a trustworthy relationship with each of these officers not just as a team together because they didn't work together after all but as individuals and and basically there has to be
03:10:17 there has to be an element of trust there together and i would have always thought that i was their first line of um not attack um solace in in being able to bring that particular piece of worry they might have to notice and we take it from there
03:10:36 would it be fair some situations you would deal with yourself and others you would refer up to your superiors yes i mean that would be judged entirely on its merits i mean if it was something that i could easily put right i mean yes of course i would do it i've been sorted
03:10:52 of course i would do it i've been sorted out and if it was something else where i needed further counsel as well then i would take it um further up
03:11:00 can i ask you this about intelligence you've said that you came to understand that if good intelligence was being produced the officer might run for a bit longer
03:11:12 did you come to understand what constituted good intelligence
03:11:25 it's a very difficult question to answer um and it was always a difficult uh situation to know um when to withdraw somebody from this type of work um
03:11:33 um it wasn't difficult if there was say personal problems or something in in the welfare front because that has to take precedence but in the gathering of intelligence
03:11:45 intelligence of course
03:11:46 of course um
03:11:47 um there is a temptation to keep it going whilst things low looking to be good
03:12:00 i can't quantify that any further at this stage because it's so long ago it's not an issue really i never came about but i can understand you might want to go that extra month or two when
03:12:11 month or two when with the benefit of hindsight you might take somebody back out earlier on i'm i can't help any further than that to your knowledge would an officer be
03:12:23 to your knowledge would an officer be aware that would they be given feedback so that they were aware if they produced good intelligence they may get a longer run in the sds
03:12:34 in the sds no i don't think i don't think that was ever
03:12:40 ever a guarantee or an idea of a guarantee no i think the welfare situation was paramount in everybody's mind because what you didn't want them to be is to be um compromised
03:12:55 mr bryce final topic i'd like to deal with is the move to s squad in july 1970
03:13:04 um i wonder please could we have document mps-0730906
03:13:13 so it's tab three of the bundle at page three
03:13:19 mr bryce what is on the screen now is one of the annual reports um that were produced and the letters that went
03:13:26 went um
03:13:27 um from
03:13:32 from those high in um special branch to the home office yes um to seek the continuation and this is dated february 1975.
03:13:40 1975. could we scroll down a little bit please
03:13:53 i'm looking at the final paragraph on that page and this relates to the move to
03:13:58 to s squad it's a letter by the assistant um
03:14:01 um commissioner for crime awards and it says this
03:14:02 says this um this the commission i have continued to take a close personal interest in the activities of the squad and i would stress as i did last year that each officer involved undertakes
03:14:15 that each officer involved undertakes that the maintenance of the strictest security remains paramount every practical step is taken by close supervision and intelligent anticipation to prevent exposure
03:14:29 to prevent exposure and no complacency is permitted to this end operate the operations of the special squad were placed in july 1974 directly under day-to-day supervision of a chief superintendent and
03:14:49 of a chief superintendent and superintendent who were reallocated from other tasks in order to provide a further degree of control yes
03:14:54 now we we've dealt with the fact that you're aware of this uh move to the additional control of being under s
03:15:07 additional control of being under s squad by the arrival of david bicknell on on the sds as your superintendent is that right
03:15:11 yes i from my memory i think mr bicknell became the chief superintendent so i think that's what i was saying in my statement
03:15:22 statement were you aware of any review that took place
03:15:23 place on the
03:15:27 on the management level of yourself and the chief inspector that led to the sds being brought under the control and supervision of s squad
03:15:44 i don't see any major difference between the control of it was before it went to air squad and when it went to escort apart from that slight change in chief superintendent and superintendent um
03:15:59 um i think that's my my answer well that anticipates my next question and you said that
03:16:04 said that once david bicknell was in place it was a little easier he was it was more approachable aside from that did you notice any impact on the day-to-day running of the sds from july 1974
03:16:15 1974 no because um i wouldn't have done because of course i was um i said on the way out i left and knocked i think on fairly early in october or something so
03:16:30 fairly early in october or something so um i wasn't aware of of that structural difference making a difference day-to-day um i wasn't exactly on d-mob leave but um
03:16:35 um in a sense i was still dealing with mr bicknell anyway he may have been a rank higher so i didn't have a problem in dealing with him when he was either a superintendent
03:16:50 him when he was either a superintendent or a chief superintendent but i think by the time we get to the point in that report
03:16:59 report mr neil was in place as well as the chief inspector and you said earlier you don't have any real recollection of derek neal um
03:17:09 um by july of 1974 then were you aware that you were going to to leave the police force i don't need any detail but just whether you recall because i probably was yes
03:17:27 two final points to deal with um the description that i've just read out from the letter would you agree that the supervision on a day-to-day basis and by senior
03:17:38 on a day-to-day basis and by senior managers was not so much concerned with the standards of undercover officers and a check on the limitations of them trespassing into
03:17:50 trespassing into the lives of individuals but the concern was to keep the activities of the unit secret and secure that was the overriding concern
03:18:05 overriding concern i think my answer to that is of course i i never saw that um letter because it's um until i was shown it as an exhibit um
03:18:20 until i was shown it as an exhibit um not long ago and nor should i have done but what i would say is that those comments i would heartily endorse and i believe that the point they were making about the
03:18:31 the point they were making about the security of it was as important as it's as what it actually achieved in terms in terms of intelligence there was certainly a dual role here and i happen to feel very strongly that
03:18:44 very strongly that as you would expect i would i suppose that during my time on it we had a pretty close hand on what was going on in both of those contexts is the success of it as
03:18:55 those contexts is the success of it as far as it's gathering of information and also the fact that it was pretty secure
03:19:06 also the fact that it was pretty secure overall so i would endorse the comments of that senior officer whoever it was writing to the mr walker at the home office
03:19:14 office thank you mr bryce um for now those are the questions that i have for you i realize we've arrived at 1pm
03:19:21 would it be um sensible for any questions that uh you you may be requested to um pose uh to be communicated to over the lunch hour or do you need longer than that i
03:19:32 hour or do you need longer than that i hope over the lunch hour yeah sufficient sir thank you then um
03:19:40 then um can you be back ready to resume at two when i think the final leg of your evidence will be completed thank you sir thank you thank you all right we'll adjourn until two
03:23:01 you