Testimony from Roy Creamer, a Special Branch officer who worked alongside the SDS during its formation in 1968. Creamer provides detailed insights into the SDS's role in monitoring left-wing groups before and during the Vietnam demonstrations, his assessment of various political groups, operational practices, and security concerns. The testimony reveals the unit's approach to undercover work, relationships between groups, and the evolving nature of protest policing.
00:00:48 day
00:22:28 all rise please
00:22:45 i understand there are a number of questions that uh you've been requested to put
00:22:46 to put yes
00:22:47 yes there are sir um mr smith uh in answer to the first question please can you simply reply in relation to your period of time in the sds okay
00:23:01 of time in the sds okay um was there a time when you were on the sds where the units the sds were writing targeting papers for
00:23:12 i don't remember anything of that no thank you
00:23:16 thank you the next issue is going back to something you said this morning you said that there was a danger to the squad if it became known outside i think special branches is what you were referring to i just wanted to
00:23:29 you were referring to i just wanted to explore that a little bit more with you if i could um why did you consider it it might have been a danger to the squad's existence if
00:23:40 if they had been found out if you like well
00:23:40 well quite simply if they'd been uh their security had been blown then um their existence would could well be jeopardised and they
00:23:54 could well be jeopardised and they wouldn't exist anymore they wouldn't be able to provide the service to essentially a8 and ourselves in terms of understanding what was happening it was no more than more than and obviously
00:24:04 obviously um
00:24:08 um that's in respect of the squad uh
00:24:11 uh that was yeah that was it yes um what was there uh um a concern about embarrassment that could be caused if if its operations had been known outside of special branch
00:24:22 known outside of special branch embarrassment no it's just as simply that the squad couldn't have existed different entirely to the individual the individual could have been at risk personally and physically
00:24:35 personally and physically but that's a different issue was
00:24:39 was there any kind of concern that you knew about
00:24:40 about that
00:24:43 that officers were doing things perhaps that they shouldn't do and that was why the squad would be put in danger if they were known about outside of special branch no i can't think of anything as i say the only thing that was
00:24:58 considered as a reasonable but inevitable was it once in a blue moon someone would be arrested for obstruction but other than that no um thank you you referred to
00:25:10 referred to extreme left-wing groups this morning was that a particular definition as you understood it it was a general definition i think it was a sort of thing you'd read in the
00:25:24 sort of thing you'd read in the newspapers or we wouldn't know where anybody would know it was uh tropsies groups um anarchists which aren't supposed strictly left but they're still regarded as extreme
00:25:35 as extreme uh maoist for example uh
00:25:38 uh groups which were minority groups but nevertheless uh were
00:25:41 uh were very vocal and capable of creating a problem was that something you would have been instructed when you were in c-squad before you joined well instructed but just picked up naturally
00:25:53 instructed but just picked up naturally yeah so you just knew that i mean it was a said it was common knowledge it wasn't something confined to to special nature thank you can i ask you to have a look at a document that you looked at this morning please it's mps
00:26:04 please it's mps 0729093
00:26:32 and it's page two thank you um and it's the center of the page um the the question i had is if you can see number two and sorry by that i mean on the top left-hand side yes it says room 892 to note can you see
00:26:45 yes it says room 892 to note can you see that yes um are you able to help us with what room 892 was in 1973
00:26:53 in 1973 as you were i can make a a stab at certainly um there was an office which dealt with a
00:27:06 sort of summary of sb activity which
00:27:12 was manned by an inspector and a sergeant i think
00:27:20 and i can remember the office in the old building in the old pre-1967 building and i think it probably existed in opposition again in this building so it's possible so in other words it was a
00:27:35 so in other words it was a an office which did summary of sb activity across the board and so it's just for them to be aware of perhaps i don't know but that's the best i can come up with i can't think of
00:27:48 i can come up with i can't think of anything else that that could be thank you um take that down please you you told us uh this morning um in answer
00:27:58 answer to some questions about reputations that i asked you specifically in relation i think to to rick clark and another officer whose name we're not using yes um you told us that you
00:28:10 you told us that you heard 10 to 15 years later after your time the sds perhaps about a reputation is was that in relation to rick clarke ah
00:28:18 ah if not i can give you the the oh no i remember you saying you clear you
00:28:29 i remember you saying you clear you clear who we're talking about yes i know i know who you're talking about yes and it was the other man so it's hn 300 we know him yes i just confirmed yes please do absolutely
00:28:40 yes that's the chap i had in mind yes and what was what was the the reputation you heard
00:28:44 you heard a womanizer a womanizer yes yes there was there was no um ambiguity there with him i'm afraid he was that way inclined and did you hear this from
00:28:51 this from another colleague in special branch or from a i heard it from many colleagues i imagine
00:28:57 imagine don't name them please but you heard it from more than one person oh yes yes yes i think it was common knowledge
00:29:03 knowledge and was there a particular event that had happened to him that led you to be talking about him 10 to 15 years later or was this just something that
00:29:16 later or was this just something that came up in conversation no there's no particular event it was just common knowledge as i said okay thank you can i i'm asking you to look at another document please it's ucpi zeroes
00:29:27 zeroes three five zero seven zero
00:29:35 and page four specifically please
00:29:43 maybe in fact page five sorry
00:29:56 sorry can we go down one more page please
00:30:15 and we'll come back to that in in a moment if i may i'm just going to locate a reference and then ask you about it um
00:30:15 um you you told us that in answer to my question about registry files being taken down to the safe house um
00:30:25 um these these files were they of individuals as i understood your evidence yes to be um were they people that you
00:30:38 you you as managers wanted the officers to target or were they people that the officers had asked the people not so much target but what did they have any information they could do
00:30:52 they have any information they could do to add to existing knowledge it wasn't a question of saying well could you make them a special target just can you help do you know this chap and can you fill in
00:30:59 in anything on him it wasn't as if there was some special project
00:31:04 project and was the purpose of taking these files down to assist the officers with their deployment yes it was the officer who had brought the file in it
00:31:16 if he could find out a bit more through the officer because there was a reasonable chance he might know him then you'd ask him you know so you mean the other officers from elsewhere and special branch asking yeah they would come in
00:31:27 come in to our office with the file and um we would then put the file into the bag uh direct it to a particular
00:31:40 the bag uh direct it to a particular officer or it might be two officers with a note on it say can you help with this and there would probably be a a letter or something on the file which indicate what the nature of the inquiry was i see
00:31:56 thank you can we have another go with that document i asked you to look before please it's ucpi five zeroes three five zero seven o and it's page eight i'm told that i'd like to look at please
00:32:10 thank you and it's the second bottom half of the page now this uh mr smith is a registry file history sheet as we understand it i know you mean yes um you may have been
00:32:25 you mean yes um you may have been familiar with these and when you were in special branch and this is in relation to
00:32:26 to um one of our core participants
00:32:38 um one of our core participants diane langford now you'll see on the left hand side by the dates the markings that read s p and c
00:32:40 and c now we have received some evidence that these relate to security classifications so um
00:32:46 so um we've been told that s p means secret pink and c means confidential yes does that accord with your recollection at the time
00:33:00 the time what what i'd be interested to know mr smith is that those security classifications were those classifications that you would put on sds reports when they left you or would they be put on by special branches we would stamp them secret
00:33:13 branches we would stamp them secret straight away right before they left our office
00:33:16 office we didn't use confidential because of the source and secret pink was a was a dip
00:33:27 was a dip dominican tourist that's the right word of a particular file it's a grade of secrecy and above that there was a another another yes we've heard some evidence about that and so
00:33:35 and so would you ever put any security classification other than secret on your reports when they left sds no i can't no they're also always secret
00:33:48 they're also always secret so would it be fair to assume that it is likely that whoever put those markings on this history sheet would have been within special branch rather than the sds uh they would have been in possibly in special branch records i don't know i
00:34:02 special branch records i don't know i think what happened was that the file went over
00:34:04 went over to
00:34:07 to sp because i think on the minuting it would say
00:34:09 would say s a s
00:34:11 s a s s b r s b r records to index and p a which has been put away or rbf bring back in two years or whatever
00:34:22 back in two years or whatever but it was just the phraseology they used but i think these were typed in almost certainly by special bonus raffle so someone in there would look at it and do with just a literally a two-liner of what what that
00:34:35 literally a two-liner of what what that reference was about what their entry was about
00:34:36 about um so that the decision on which level of security classification if i can put it that way that would be taken within the branch within the shutdown yes thank you but outside of the sds
00:34:48 outside of the sds not it i
00:34:49 not it i uh
00:34:50 uh sometimes i mean these other files whatever it is confidential probably was from somewhere within the branch right sp we did others used sp i mean it wasn't um
00:35:01 wasn't um it was a
00:35:02 it was a common uh grading that was used throughout the branch it wasn't the case that just all sds intelligence was graded
00:35:09 graded secret pink for instance well it was common that it was all graded secret yes but the file that was put on could have
00:35:21 but the file that was put on could have been secret pink or it could have been a different secret file so it says we we kicked it off and said look here this is secret and then the chief inspector level when it went to the various squads they would then
00:35:33 to the various squads they would then put it on the appropriate file as they saw fit
00:35:36 saw fit thank you um if we could take that down please
00:35:41 please another question please mr smith um the inquiry has heard some evidence um after you were involved in the unit that there was
00:35:52 that there was at times a black folder which was kept within the safe house which had a number of pieces of advice and guidance for ucos about how to conduct their deployments is do you ever recall there being a
00:36:07 is do you ever recall there being a black folder when you were in the sds no the first time i heard of the black folder was years many many years later i might have been
00:36:12 been at the very end of my service or may have been after that again at a reunion or something but i'd or even when i've had
00:36:20 had just bits and pieces of discussion about the fact this inquiry was taking place i wasn't aware of it next question please um the
00:36:29 um the term weary has been used by some officers to describe
00:36:35 describe the people that they were reporting on the people in the groups that they were providing intelligence on was the term weary something you ever heard when you were in the sds never
00:36:49 um you've told us that
00:36:51 that an undercover officer was withdrawn due to not having proper identification yeah now i don't i don't usually name that person but the question i wanted to ask you please
00:37:02 you please is
00:37:02 is is it one of the three people that were withdrawn in january 1973 and i'll give you their their numbers no it wasn't it
00:37:16 you their their numbers no it wasn't it wasn't do you need to recollect who they were or are you confident i know those three i do you mentioned i can recall them yes
00:37:18 them yes um
00:37:25 um the day of the jackal you you said that it might have been a chicken or egg um sort of situation and you remember um sort of mootings about it i think you said that may have triggered someone saying that that was what we should do or
00:37:33 or what someone then said oh that's exactly what happened in today i can't remember that uh so were you speculating that it might have been or do you require adult
00:37:44 have been or do you require adult conversation about either or could be neither all right
00:37:53 next in relation to the policy change to use deceased children's identities that i mentioned just before lunch would you as the back office sergeant um have it would expect to have been informed of that change
00:38:07 that change which policy was in particular the the starting of using deceased children's identities from records held at somerset house is that something you would expect to have been told or found out about
00:38:21 to have been told or found out about my problem with that is i can't remember when i became aware of it but i at some point somewhere along the line either before or after when i can't i just don't know when i would have thought it would have been mentioned but not necessarily because i wasn't involved in
00:38:33 wasn't involved in establishing that that identity that was very much the province of the chief inspector in the spectra and the sergeant but it wasn't
00:38:46 wasn't absolute that i would have been told understood uh positions of responsibility you told us that uh you would not have expected during your time on the sds officer uh officers deployed officers to assume
00:38:58 officers deployed officers to assume particular positions of responsibility within groups that they were reporting on
00:39:04 on now we know that um hn298 who we who we discussed before lunch and please remind yourself if you need to know who we're talking about i think please do check you're talking about but i'll just be sure
00:39:16 sure yes
00:39:19 yes became he became the membership secretary of uh the young liberals in january 1972 when you were within the sds
00:39:27 sds are you surprised that a uco did something like that when you were on the squad
00:39:38 you were on the squad yes i would have been nice but i didn't certainly didn't i don't recall it at all
00:39:42 but yes i would have been surprised yes yes do you think that's the sort of thing that might have been approved by those above you in the management chain or by you even well presumably if they knew of it they would have approved it
00:39:58 knew of it they would have approved it the only thing i can say is that being the young liberals and because we weren't bothered about the young liberals it was seen as not that
00:40:00 not that uh of a but of a problem i mean had it been img well yes definitely a problem but because it was young it was simply a stepping stone to something else and he was interested anyway in
00:40:15 else and he was interested anyway in that arm of the of the young liberals that was into the anti-apartheid movement and those demonstrations would have it wouldn't have it'd have been far less heinous so i say if that's the right word what why would it have
00:40:27 the right word what why would it have been more of a problem if it was a group like the img for instance uh because obviously they shouldn't be seen as being anywhere in the situation which could be construed as a provocateur or
00:40:40 could be construed as a provocateur or having extra influence within the group the idea was to be as i said just a rank and file fly on the wall member of the group you mentioned the anti-apartheid movement just a moment ago and um
00:40:54 and um can you help us with why the sds was interested in the anti-apartheid movement well partly much to do with things like stop the 70 tour i don't know if you obviously would have heard of that
00:41:05 of that demonstrations of that nature where they would invade a football pitch or a rugby pitch more precisely and
00:41:14 and do things so that would have been it um were you interested in the individuals within the anti-apartheid movement and and what i mean by that is people like peter hayne lord hayne he was the one that was
00:41:32 was the one that was organizing a lot of that yes obviously what he was directing and doing he he would have been aware of what was happening on that particular front and yes to that extent it would have been interested in him um
00:41:40 um smith
00:41:44 smith finally this um i asked you about arrests just before lunch and you mentioned that offenses like obstruction might be considered the sort of
00:41:53 of maximum
00:41:57 maximum acceptable offence that um an officer might be arrested for if forgive me i'm i'm paraphrasing what you said
00:42:02 said and
00:42:03 and what i wanted to know is is are you in that referring to obstruction just of the highway would obstruction of a police officer be considered in a
00:42:14 police officer be considered in a similar way by the sdx i think as obstruction along the lines of sitting down in the road and blocking the traffic
00:42:26 road and blocking the traffic um or something along those lines not of a police officer which is a more
00:42:29 more further down the line as i would say you would you would have considered it slightly more serious oh yes oh yes yes so if you're obstructing a police officer i'm provided that was proven obviously
00:42:37 obviously anything but yes
00:42:44 smith thank you very much those are the only questions that i have for you thank you any re-examination no thank you thank you thank you mrs i'm sorry your departure has been delayed but that now is an end of it i'm very grateful to you for coming to assist the inquiry
00:42:56 coming to assist the inquiry we're now i'm now going to rise says to permit arrangements to be set up for the next witness mr creamer to give evidence over the live screen
00:54:51 all rise please
00:55:14 mute
00:55:22 mr creamer sir good afternoon john meeting speaking chairman of the undercover policing inquiry i'm very grateful to you for coming to assist us i
00:55:33 i realize um that
00:55:43 that remarkably i was aged seven when you joined the metropolitan police was a long time ago um i understand you prefer to be sworn yes yes then mr fernandez will uh do the necessary
00:55:57 thank you mr kramer please place your bible in your right hand and repeat after me
00:56:05 i swear by almighty god i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give that the evidence i shall give will be the truth
00:56:09 the truth will be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but true thank you chairman mr barr
00:56:19 mr barr thank you sir
00:56:26 mr creamer could we start with your full name please
00:56:28 please roy creamer no middle name you've provided a witness statement dated the 4th of november 2020
00:56:39 2020 are the contents of your witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes sir
00:56:52 yes sir and you joined the metropolitan police in 1954
00:56:54 in 1954 is that right yes and you moved to special branch in 1958
00:57:01 in 1958 yes
00:57:06 yes and between joining special branch in 1958
00:57:08 1958 and joining the sds in 1968 you spent a fair bit of your time
00:57:20 you spent a fair bit of your time working for c squad is that right yes yes indeed
00:57:31 yes yes indeed and c squad was the branch of special branch which dealt with the far left um
00:57:34 um more or less but i think it did move to b squad
00:57:40 b squad at the time when i came back from port it was b squad they took over um the far left and left sea squad to do what they normally did
00:57:51 what they normally did i see and what was that um
00:57:51 um look after the communist party cider and did there come a time when the far left went back to sea squad yes yes
00:58:10 can i uh ask you how deep a knowledge of the far left did you develop whilst working for b and c squads before you joined the sds not a lot um i mean
00:58:25 i mean you could i went to a lot of meetings but not a lot but i mean more than i would expect and uh
00:58:28 and uh mostly of left-wing character
00:58:34 character and
00:58:34 and i was interested to find out
00:58:47 to find out about all the different groups what they how they differ from each other and all that kind of thing so i was interested as a an individual that wasn't told anything about what to do simply there report what you heard put it down
00:58:52 it down and
00:58:54 and look
00:58:55 look for the next opportunity to go out and about um
00:59:02 um i think in those days the
00:59:06 the groups that were not communist were
00:59:08 were hardly
00:59:09 hardly thought much of you know they generally they were small and
00:59:16 and generally they were quite you know when you went there quite sincere and genuine you know
00:59:26 in their beliefs and
00:59:30 and i think as time went by particularly towards um 68 and so on they got stronger and did begin to cause a problem but for the most part in the early days there was no trouble from the time
00:59:43 was no trouble from the time did your interest means that you developed a good knowledge of the groups it could have been better but yes it's fair enough
00:59:59 the inquiry has been told that the stuart christie
01:00:11 stuart christie described you as and i'm now quoting the yard's dialectician of descent yes well
01:00:15 yes well you may well have done but the thing is that um
01:00:16 that um in
01:00:21 in those days this is before um the sds
01:00:23 the sds the usual
01:00:28 the usual behavior for a man in my position um
01:00:29 um was to try and meet personally with the leading lights on the other side there was two reasons for this one was that particularly with anarchists say
01:00:45 leaders if they felt like it um
01:00:51 we were sent to
01:00:56 sent to um say processions royal processions or other big public occasions and it was important for me to know oh somebody to know who were the mischievous and likely people to
01:01:06 people to either throw a bomb or whatever it is that anarchists might be up to so really i had no
01:01:12 i had no um unease about talking to christie and for the life of me i don't really didn't mind what he thought to be honest i mean i was always pleasant with him and
01:01:25 and in many ways even after you know later things when there could have been enemies i almost got involved with them as um somebody
01:01:37 um somebody old acquaintance basically it wasn't anything more than that and how well did you get to know mr christie
01:01:45 well in this in a way that if he saw me he would talk to me or i would talk to him but i never knew anything about his
01:01:56 but i never knew anything about his private life i knew he was married and had children himself i had a daughter and things like that but that was incidental i mean i didn't ask him about that sort of thing and i didn't really ask him about anarchism or anything he
01:02:07 about anarchism or anything he um there was a shop in red line square run by albert meltzer now melsa was the chap i really got on with because
01:02:21 because well he's an ex-wrestler a big man and uh
01:02:27 uh very courteous and so on and so forth christie used to help him but i went into the shop really to sort through meltzer's books and find books about anarchism if they were that i would possibly be able to buy or read on the spot
01:02:40 on the spot but more to the point really from a police point of view uh to see what notices uh were in the window on the counter and that kind of thing
01:02:51 that kind of thing saying things about which groups anarchists which anarchist groups were going to hold a meeting or whatever so it was a useful thing to do but unfortunately in a way christy
01:03:04 christy used to be in there helping and he
01:03:05 and he um
01:03:07 um well
01:03:11 well we had this kind of uneasy relationship really i wasn't gonna hurt him and he wasn't gonna hurt me and there were times for example when he would see me at some of these left-wing meetings and he'd whispered to his friends
01:03:25 and he'd whispered to his friends there's creamy not from beyond blah blah blah
01:03:29 blah but he never did anything about it and i always felt that even if you tried this i've been have the advantage really because
01:03:40 because who is more likely to cause trouble at a left-wing meeting and anarchist not the police they just settled tell me to go home or whatever but they might be a bit more
01:03:46 more uh
01:03:49 uh you know fierce with him so i i didn't really mind that sort of situation
01:03:58 how forthcoming uh were the likes of mr meltzer and mr christie
01:04:00 christie in response to what i might call your direct approach about themselves not the thing i mean
01:04:13 about themselves not the thing i mean i didn't expect that but what was useful to me
01:04:16 to me was what was their attitude to other groups
01:04:20 groups and that way i mean for example i would say
01:04:27 say what do you think of these maoists and so on and they would uh get on their platform on their high heels high whatever and say um oh they're loaded rubbish and you know they've got no no
01:04:38 rubbish and you know they've got no no support anywhere and we don't like them and thanks to that uh in in that way were helpful to me to sort of
01:04:51 sort of see what other people thought about them you know the group said i could judge myself whether they were um
01:04:52 um or that they claim to be
01:04:59 did your interactions with people on the far left
01:05:04 far left before you joined the sds involve you going into private homes at all no no no i think um i should make it clear sir that uh in those days
01:05:20 clear sir that uh in those days uh if you were sent to a cover meeting and it was in a private home you
01:05:21 you should and you could for example go back to the yard and say no i can't get in there because it's a private house
01:05:34 house not merely could but you should and some senior sergeants would you know something very annoyed with you if you came back and said i couldn't get in now others would say we should have
01:05:55 now others would say we should have tried a bit harder but the official line was no way you don't go you don't go in and most of us knew that but of course because it happened so rarely it
01:05:56 it kind of got overlooked or you know people just
01:06:09 overlooked or you know people just didn't think about it do you know why the instruction forbade you from entering private houses um
01:06:14 um not really but uh i think uh
01:06:15 uh you in the ordinary course of police work you you wouldn't go to a person private house without an invite now this is a problem um
01:06:27 um they're holding a political meeting in a private house so there is by implication an invitation to anybody to go there not necessarily anybody but the people that um were interested in subject
01:06:39 were interested in subject so that if you got there and they weren't quite sure who you were they welcome you anyway and so that you could take advantage of that invitation but the obverse of that
01:06:52 but the obverse of that is that if they knew that you were a police officer um
01:06:55 um the invitation wouldn't be that it wouldn't be there would so you sort of typical
01:07:00 typical uh
01:07:01 uh sort of territory there and i think the best way would be to solve it anyway is not to go in i mean that's just from a practical point of view it didn't matter what any other consideration applied you
01:07:21 what any other consideration applied you were there not to cause waves and not to upset people but to do the job with the discrete way that was the emphasis meaning
01:07:33 am i right to understand that the expertise that you developed was mainly in the fields of anarchism and trotskyism yeah
01:07:38 yeah later on of course i couldn't be an expert on dropsism straight off because it's complex and i didn't have a lot of time
01:07:49 didn't have a lot of time uh anarchism yes a bit more because i was interested in it and
01:07:50 and i learned a lot from the subsequent experience i had with the anchorage game
01:08:00 i'd like to ask you a few more questions now about anarchists and these are on the theme of whether or not they should have been of interest to special branch
01:08:16 to special branch if we start perhaps with an easy example the angry brigade plainly were of interest because they adopted violent means yes
01:08:30 what was your view in relation to the friends of freedom press ah now that's interesting because i was quite relaxed about them but for the most part
01:08:42 but for the most part they were not and in my view uh
01:08:43 uh dangerous
01:08:46 dangerous anarchists are likely to assassinate anyone they were more um
01:08:53 um friends who got together in the belief that um
01:09:02 there should be more freedom for everybody to live but mainly they didn't like the communists the communist animals traditionally have been enemies and uh whether it was in the french in the uh spanish
01:09:13 the french in the uh spanish civil war or whatever the anarchists got a very hard time from the communists when the communists got in in russia so there was that background of their shall we say their enemy was my enemy so we had a little bit in
01:09:27 was my enemy so we had a little bit in common so i could quite happily to them if i wanted to but from a public order point of view um
01:09:32 um they were
01:09:36 they were a bit difficult to assess because uh
01:09:37 uh they were on the whole people like that are not physically big and strong they're usually it's too
01:09:49 they're usually it's too kind of academic or even small in statue and that kind of thing and their anarchists in a sort of in a way that some artists believe that anarchism is a good thing you know they
01:10:03 anarchism is a good thing you know they break uh traditional rules and all that kind of thing and so i didn't think they were forced to be reckoned with they weren't like rugby players or whatever uh as you know in physique
01:10:17 uh as you know in physique nor in intention they didn't really want to fight anybody so i i rather felt
01:10:22 felt it's not exactly a waste of time talking to anarchists but it's um
01:10:26 it's um you've got to be quite clear in your mind
01:10:27 mind that they're not you know public order targets really it's
01:10:37 it's that is we talked about freedom press up i'm not saying that applies to all anarchists and staying with freedom press for the moment
01:10:45 moment was freedom press in any way a threat to the state
01:10:47 the state no
01:10:49 no no no no no i mean in my estimation no
01:10:56 no i don't want to stick up for them too much because you know they can stick up for themselves but um from my estimation if there were anarchists at a um
01:11:06 um a demonstration the people that would support freedom press and the federation of anarchists um
01:11:19 um would watch and they might even cheer and they might even take part like supporters of the football matchman but
01:11:26 but they weren't likely to do an awful lot but the trouble with saying that is that there's another aspect to so-called anarchists which
01:11:36 which covers the hooligan element in demonstrations that don't want to pay don't want to obey anybody they want to discipline from the organizers or from the police or whatever and that is
01:11:49 the police or whatever and that is called anarchism but that is not what the uh freedom press
01:11:55 moving away from the freedom press and having already dealt with the angry brigade
01:12:02 brigade which were the anarchists who in your experience were trouble
01:12:13 well from a public order point of view any hope could be that burns i don't think
01:12:21 think it wasn't in the nature anarchist to um
01:12:23 um support or enhance the you know the activities of any other group they would
01:12:36 any other group they would they'd only do what they wanted to do but there were one or two people in solidarity and in some groups like that that
01:12:42 that were difficult and
01:12:46 and an example of that would be the people who helped the russian spy to escape from prison and that kind of thing they were of anarchist tendency
01:13:00 of anarchist tendency must be careful because they were found not guilty of anything but um in
01:13:01 in in reality there was something there that needed to be kept an eye on because it was very difficult
01:13:09 difficult and uh
01:13:10 and uh i don't think we were up to you know they were cleverer than us in many ways for interrupting do you mean blake i don't
01:13:26 your witness describes some of them as too intellectual who did you have in mind as too intellectual did i say that yes it says these were the groups most likely to
01:13:38 these were the groups most likely to make trouble there were some who were probably too intellectual and would not welcome people who did not know anything and others were just drinking clubs oh well you talking in in the context of uh
01:13:53 well you talking in in the context of uh you know putting a an undercover officer with them
01:13:54 with them um
01:14:02 um well that's true i mean if uh you went there uh
01:14:03 uh and
01:14:10 and they started talking to savannah kids too we know about hakuni and all that kind of thing um
01:14:11 um you would be it go over your head and they would sense it did and they wouldn't take to you really they wouldn't welcome you in but um
01:14:25 but um in theory if you went to a left-wing group
01:14:28 group ideally you should go as a sort of laborer
01:14:35 laborer on a working man because i mean it's all about workers isn't it really it's not about intellectuals and
01:14:37 and i i felt that if they'd tried to get into an anarchist group at that time hey it would be difficult be it be a complete waste of time
01:14:47 time and why a waste of time because they weren't up to much um but this way if they were in the football team you
01:14:59 if they were in the football team you they could sit on the bench and not play not playing the field
01:15:08 can we move now to trotskyists what was your view from a policing perspective of the img
01:15:25 well i'll put it simply as i can sir if you if you took the whole range of um left wing demonstrators um
01:15:30 um img and is would be like um
01:15:35 mayfair and park lane in the game of monopoly
01:15:37 monopoly that is to say uh
01:15:43 uh they were the most difficult to get in but if you did get in you would learn a lot about what they were up to now there was a kind of scale where
01:16:02 where other groups say for example the vietnam solidarity the vietnam bsc groups that were more like the um oak count road classification that is to say they were easy to get in and they didn't really know an open model
01:16:13 model because they were taking all their instructions from elsewhere
01:16:19 and that's roughly
01:16:20 roughly what i thought about things you know in general at that time
01:16:36 well if we if we stick with the img you say they were difficult to get in were they involved in public order problems
01:16:40 problems it was one of those difficult things in those days that they claimed and maybe rightly
01:16:49 rightly that they didn't want violence no no no uh but
01:16:52 uh but uh they weren't going to do an awful lot to stop it if you contrast them say with jerry hill's law we'll call it socialist labor league
01:17:04 labor league would have none of it he said uh we're going to have a march which is disciplined and you'll all do as you're told with the police say do this to us you've got to behave and i think he did that really to show up the
01:17:15 up the falseness of img who were not prepared to discipline a because they weren't numerically very strong themselves if you take the a ing i doubt if it was more than 100 strong
01:17:34 i doubt if it was more than 100 strong it might have been 200 but it certainly wasn't enough to provide marshals nor were they the types of people that wanted to be martials and keep discipline they could be in some other group uh so
01:17:39 uh so um
01:17:39 um [Music]
01:17:44 [Music] i used to think at the time how come
01:17:54 how come that the left wing of the labour party which of course are the nearest and closest neighbours to trotskyist don't go to them and say um
01:17:57 um what are you playing at if you um
01:18:00 if you um organize demonstrations that are rowdy and cause uh a lot of damage and stuff like that
01:18:06 like that a
01:18:07 a you're not doing an awful lot of good but you are damaging the labour party because we're in government we'll get the responsibility will be blamed if things get out of hand
01:18:19 things get out of hand so why don't you kind of uh
01:18:21 uh calm down
01:18:22 calm down and i think in the long run that might have happened but in the early days they didn't they do not just well they they just didn't care they thought
01:18:33 thought if it's
01:18:36 if it's i think possibly because they were looking not at the labor party's problems but how it would look to say the um fourth international and people abroad
01:18:48 fourth international and people abroad if there was a lot of fuss going on in london good that's what they wanted so they didn't want to reign in on any disorder or rouse or nights with the police or anything like
01:19:00 nights with the police or anything like that that that was i think they stood on this
01:19:02 this side
01:19:10 side and said uh oh it's not our fault no no no that's not what we wanted we didn't didn't mean that so it was rather a false position i thought that they were in and
01:19:18 and the idea that there might be some secret uh napoleon type fellow saying this is it that you know this is the beginning of the revolution and uh urging them on to stir up violence i think
01:19:31 to stir up violence i think when we came to look at the um bsc demonstrations i knew full well we'd never find such a man there wasn't one there wasn't a group even that would do
01:19:44 there wasn't a group even that would do that i think it was a situation that got out of hand wasn't uh they did nothing to stop it and that's the worst you could say often
01:19:56 going thank you going back to the international socialists we've heard evidence certainly from the 1970s particularly the late 70s
01:20:10 1970s particularly the late 70s that the swp as as it became was very easy to join so i was interested in your answer that uh suggested the is
01:20:21 uh suggested the is might have been difficult to join is that really right uh
01:20:26 well i had that impression at the time part but um i'm not saying
01:20:33 if it subsequently turns out that you could put in easily will i take it back but um well i i am conscious about that i'm conscious that i'm asking you about a period of time in the 1960s when is was a lot smaller
01:20:52 was a lot smaller have you got a positive recollection one way or the other about is in that era uh
01:20:54 uh well i knew people who were in it and
01:21:04 um i found them they're all very reasonable and you know they didn't but how they would behave on the demonstration is a different a different question and i thought if anybody uh
01:21:18 i thought if anybody uh went there in a clumsy way and
01:21:19 and uh
01:21:20 uh was a bit
01:21:22 was a bit you know
01:21:23 you know sort of um please do ask a lot of questions don't they and
01:21:28 they and it they gave the impression that they weren't genuinely socialist if you know what i mean that they would be caught out much more quickly in um is
01:21:39 um is than in most other groups because they're quite i mean by the way people i mean
01:21:45 mean it wouldn't be like helios who were almost uh paranoid about people coming in and joining and is was a lot less like that so
01:22:03 and is was a lot less like that so in a way what you said that they were easier to get in it's true but it's uh
01:22:09 true for the ordinary citizen but for an undercover police officer it's different really it would have been hard
01:22:15 from your experience
01:22:22 were the international socialists a threat to public order
01:22:27 well um
01:22:36 yes and no i think they they were the prepared to organize big demonstrations and like ing we're not prepared to discipline them so in a way yes yes but of course it's a bit harsh to say that that um from food's point of view
01:22:48 food's point of view which would say what matters that's what you know i would say yes
01:22:58 moving to the socialist labour league you've already made quite plain that you don't think that they were a public order threat
01:23:11 public order threat were they of any policing interest at all
01:23:12 all oh well
01:23:13 oh well um
01:23:15 um they were not a public order threat simply because they were determined to have um
01:23:24 have um good demonstrations and were not um not let strangers or anybody come and join them you know so given credit for that that they they're demonstrating demonstrations
01:23:38 they're demonstrating demonstrations were very good in the way well handled by the police and well done by the organizers but
01:23:41 but the
01:23:43 the uh
01:23:47 uh socialists they believe never drop of water of course
01:24:01 the soldiers labelly was not liked by many other groups i mean
01:24:04 i mean the discipline that jerry healy had was objectionable i mean they just uh i remember saying to conrad that on
01:24:21 i remember saying to conrad that on stage when he was suggesting that we put somebody in the socialist labour league that they would have to stand outside the place the um railway station at clapham common and sell newspapers which when you think you're going to send a young officer there
01:24:33 send a young officer there who might see his friends or other police colleagues or something like that saying what are you doing double i mean it would be a ridiculous thing to do and dangerous
01:24:47 ridiculous thing to do and dangerous so i had my feelings about them as uh as a group and also
01:24:49 and also um
01:24:53 um i think the truth of it was that the socialist labor league aimed for support into trade unions they wouldn't get it from political demonstrations and i think uh
01:25:09 and i think uh that was a closed area to me i didn't care about so you know it wasn't my business
01:25:12 business to concern myself with trade unions but i think um that's where uh he drew his uh strength and support if he had any and at times he did because he did have um
01:25:24 um he could number his demonstrations in hundreds really so it was a difficult one to assess that one
01:25:29 one when you say the trade unions weren't your business do you mean they weren't police business yeah
01:25:40 now i appreciate this may not be an area where you had quite the same depth of knowledge but could i just ask you about maoists in your experience did the
01:25:51 maoists in your experience did the maoist groups present a public order threat and if so which ones uh i think i did write a report on manchanda didn't i you did well we'll come to that later specifically
01:26:04 specifically i was interested in that of course um and going back to what i'd chat up to the anarchists about they were an unknown fact uh
01:26:11 uh and i got
01:26:13 and i got the feeling that
01:26:15 that first of all whatever they said they were not prompt they weren't sponsored by the chinese embassy or anything like that they were people usually from
01:26:29 usually from the far east themselves who
01:26:32 who felt very strong obviously about vietnam especially i mean because you know it was their patch and
01:26:38 and they by
01:26:39 they by um
01:26:45 by tradition of their ways they would behave differently to us and they would shout and scream and make a lot of fuss which we would do as english people so that you were in a bit of a difficulty to know how far this uh
01:27:00 difficulty to know how far this uh anger that they seem to suggest was uh
01:27:01 uh genuinely
01:27:06 you know sort of uh
01:27:07 uh help from
01:27:16 help from a sense of injustice or whether it was just a natural way so you you had to have difficulties with them uh in and i think the
01:27:21 the the numbers fortunately it was so small they didn't really matter a a competent group of police officers could handle any kind of marriage demonstration
01:27:32 demonstration and i know when i used to do uh assessments for maoist i generally wrote along the lines that they
01:27:41 that they were noisy and that they were boisterous and that they were this that the other but they were not dangerous
01:27:49 can i move now to anti-racism campaigners people like the anti-apartheid movement uh did you have any experience of them no no
01:28:01 no no no i lost uh i think when i
01:28:03 when i i'm not sure what happened but i i certainly wouldn't have anything to do with that
01:28:09 with that did you have anything to do with the far right
01:28:11 right in the early days um we were all was sent to a far-right meeting as part of our kind of in
01:28:23 our kind of in introduction into the branch's work and
01:28:24 and it been so discredited by um what had happened during the war and that that that fascist was a absolutely you know dead
01:28:37 absolutely you know dead political idea altogether nobody would take it up they were wasting their time trying to persuade the public towards their point of view and i think we used to have to watch
01:28:48 we used to have to watch oslo mosley at hyde park corner and he would make very
01:28:51 very you know
01:28:54 you know well chosen words and good speeches and that kind of thing but
01:28:58 but the support for him from round and about was
01:28:59 was negligible and to my mind the uh
01:29:05 the uh of course
01:29:06 of course you know from my particular point of view there was nothing interest in them in there nothing they they could be the victims of
01:29:18 they they could be the victims of attacks by the left that was a big problem
01:29:18 problem but on their own they were of no account really and i think when they did have demonstrations on their own that weren't attacked by the left wing
01:29:34 wing uh nobody would know i mean so quiet and orderly what period of time are we talking about here well we're talking about before the sds yeah so in that era
01:29:46 thank you can i move now from the individual groups
01:29:47 groups to ask you um
01:29:49 um in your experience were
01:29:53 were if i call them traditional special branch methods of obtaining intelligence in your opinion an experience sufficient
01:30:11 sufficient to deal with the public order problems that the police faced in london um up to the uh the vietnam demonstrations in the march would it be 70
01:30:18 70 16
01:30:20 16 or 68.
01:30:25 or 68. i would have said yes because um
01:30:27 um generally speaking they were smaller uh they were less intense in the fact that the emotions that prompted them to
01:30:41 prompted them to demonstrate were not that heavy and the police
01:30:46 also had a how can i put it they were respected more there was you know stories of man on the white horse holding back a crowd at wembley and that kind of thing so they had that confidence and that uh know-how
01:31:01 and that uh know-how to deal with disorder because it was small
01:31:06 small and it wasn't really very vicious now
01:31:07 now after
01:31:09 after the march demonstration in london where a lot of police were injured of course it did change and i think it was
01:31:20 i think it was inevitable that we would have to increase our um
01:31:25 um surveillance of left-wing groups a lot more
01:31:26 more uh just how that was to be done is oh you know up to the powers that be but i i realized that we couldn't go on the way we were because
01:31:41 the way we were because one sergeant and two two constables possibly if he was lucky would have to uh an assessment or a demonstration and in fact most officers were reluctant to do it because they
01:31:54 were reluctant to do it because they said look we're not fortunate tellers we're not weather forecasters what's going to happen it's not we can't say i mean it might be this it might be that but we can't forecast what a
01:32:06 but we can't forecast what a demonstration is going to be or how many people are turning up because we're not equipped to do that not able to do it or we don't want to do it and that was the key point that they didn't want to do it and and those days uh
01:32:16 uh we had a
01:32:21 we had a chief superintendent gilbert who sent me out one one day something had happened and people were demonstrating outside the house and the then home secretary was um i forgot his name
01:32:36 i forgot his name and labeled home secretary and
01:32:40 and there was a small demonstration outside his house
01:32:44 his house and the officer that went there said to us
01:32:45 us small demonstration six or seven people blah blah blah and nothing to report really which was a very main gilbert quite cross because he was uh asked by the
01:33:02 cross because he was uh asked by the home office what's all this you know who are these people blah blah blah and
01:33:06 and he said to me you go the next time it happens
01:33:09 happens and i want a full report so of course i went and with the help of a lot uh you know like the protection officers and the local
01:33:25 the protection officers and the local police and all the rest of it i was able to say who they were and what they were protesting about and i can't remember what it was here protesting but uh
01:33:30 uh it i took this back to gilbert and he sent me very much and he said to me afterwards um you know
01:33:33 you know we are not giving uh and uh a8 much in the way of uh information about um demonstrations and things
01:33:44 um demonstrations and things i think you ought to you know
01:33:50 try and gingered it up a bit or words of that effect and uh from then i i felt i've got a mission to do that if you know what i mean it was kind of
01:34:01 mean it was kind of not as grand as all that but um i thought that if i if i did that then others would then say oh well we can beat him at
01:34:12 say oh well we can beat him at forecasting who was going to come on demonstrations it would it'd be a kind of
01:34:15 a kind of much more like a competition to get things right rather than again
01:34:20 again but
01:34:24 but i went halfway along that road on the subject yeah can you recall when that was that would be if immediately before because
01:34:39 if immediately before because i was on b squad then if you remember i said it was big squad and
01:34:40 and i was
01:34:44 i was brought back from four with
01:34:47 with not having been in touch with anything for about three years so i had a lot of catching up to do and i was
01:34:53 i was some of the time acting
01:34:56 acting vic gilbert's clark because his upper claws are often ill so we saw a bit of big and uh
01:35:08 and uh i think that would be 67 or 60
01:35:16 67 or 60 66 that kind of can you recall whether or not the home secretary was james callaghan
01:35:18 callaghan oh yeah
01:35:24 he was home secretary at um just about the time of the demonstration shouldn't he yeah so what i'm asking you is can you remember whether the demonstration was outside james callahan's house or was it outside a
01:35:36 callahan's house or was it outside a different minister's house what's your difference
01:35:41 let me um now um
01:35:49 this minister uh
01:35:53 uh was rather dome shiny hair and
01:35:54 and and don't for it brother i was uh a literary man he wrote books and after he retired i can't think of his name to be honest but um
01:36:08 but um if it occurs to me i'll mention it thank you
01:36:12 you sticking with the period before the sds was formed did you think that the traditional methods were sufficient to obtain the information
01:36:24 information that the security service wanted from special branch about subversion oh that's a total order sir i mean you know i was only a sergeant and
01:36:38 know i was only a sergeant and what the security service wanted was
01:36:40 was that they speak to us they they just asked the questions and we they
01:36:52 they wanted to identify people basically and so it was a question of them adding
01:36:53 adding clothes to
01:37:00 sort of a naked subject all they had was a name or something and you would have to um
01:37:05 book um
01:37:06 um the
01:37:10 the date of birth and all the rest of it i think um
01:37:11 think um there was some uh dispute in the branch itself at one time about
01:37:21 about uh he is known to me on the
01:37:22 on the um
01:37:24 um on the report and there was a lot of discussion because
01:37:30 because to say that he's known to me i think was a throwback to the days when people were likely to be arrested saying
01:37:45 people were likely to be arrested saying uh if they were suspect should have been involved in espionage during the war it was important that the officer who had written about him should be able to identify
01:37:53 identify and now with the people that uh mi5 were interested in we weren't particularly i mean
01:37:54 mean and i
01:37:55 and i which some people felt quite rightly that you no need to put down he is known to me because hey you've got to take a risk
01:38:02 risk getting to know it how could you say it's known to me without going down and look at it and he would you know
01:38:12 you know not take kindly to that why should you do it
01:38:16 do it so that that was a situation that they had their what they wanted to know and we were obliged to answer them
01:38:27 are you sorry are they right wrong are you referring to a tension between doing your duty as a police officer and providing information on people who were in no way a threat to law and order
01:38:39 law and order i you would have to be very fastidious to do that no i mean if you're told to do something and it seemed reasonable and it came from on high
01:38:51 and it came from on high you couldn't qualify with it really right if you were bold enough
01:39:02 bold enough or silly enough or you didn't care but normally nobody in this life wants to make waves about something which is beyond there and you know it's beyond them to decide really
01:39:07 really i see can we pause there a moment mr creamer um you've been going for about an hour now do you want a break i'd like a yeah okay
01:39:19 yes yes sir just this time not long i eventually do well we have a minimum of 10 so it's 10 all right
01:39:33 10 so it's 10 all right and it is the name you were trying to find roy jenkins yes indeed indeed thank you sir i will resume in 10 minutes
01:52:48 all rise please
01:53:04 refreshed
01:53:09 oh yes thank you good good thank you sir
01:53:24 thank you sir mr creamer we'll move on then to the sds in your witness statement you said that uniform had complained that they were not getting enough intelligence about what to expect are you able to elaborate on that for us please
01:53:31 please well yes um that was not said to me personally by a because i you know too too much of a minion for them to talk to me but the um
01:53:46 me but the um i think at the top level we're at the level of bit gilbert and the chief superintendent and maybe in discussions which they must have had with the commissioner uh they
01:53:55 uh they felt that it wasn't their fault that the demonstrations were the early ones the march
01:54:02 march and
01:54:04 and previous ones had been rowdy and uh and of course police injuries they felt it wasn't their fault which it wasn't i mean no it's arguing about that but
01:54:17 but uh i think they kind of uh
01:54:24 uh suggested that it would be a bit better if the special branch weren't so bland and
01:54:25 and simply right the demonstrators will start off at this particular point at this particular time and march to this politically because they already knew that
01:54:38 they already knew that and in fact they had the advantage of being able to interview the people that organized into demonstrations and arranged precisely that so they didn't want their own information back but they couldn't quantify or even
01:54:51 but they couldn't quantify or even describe what kind of information they wanted no
01:54:55 wanted no could anybody really um it was sort of um i
01:54:58 i chose a way of them
01:55:05 of them if for example they said they organizers uh
01:55:07 uh said that
01:55:12 said that uh oh we are going to bring 3 000 people
01:55:16 people i would make it 4 000. if i thought it was going to be lively and horrendously vicious that wasn't very often but
01:55:25 often but i was inclined to sort of exaggerate the numbers
01:55:33 because saying anything in words to the effect that they will be anti-police or whatever or even to suggest for example that provided it's um carefully handled
01:55:44 carefully handled you put sentences like that in that's kind of offend an enormous amount i mean they don't want to hear that either so what is it that they do want and i found that the
01:55:53 that the if you put a figure
01:55:59 a figure higher than they expected that would do the trick because uh you stood
01:56:07 you stood there stood the chance that if they didn't
01:56:08 didn't uh didn't turn up in those numbers they wouldn't like you know that would take your assessment um as
01:56:20 as any value either but if you got it right then you would establish some kind of understanding between the branch and a8 if the branch said it was going to be big
01:56:29 big it would be and that's as much as you could do really because um there's no way anybody can forecast the future really you just have to do the best you can
01:56:44 have to do the best you can in what circumstances did you personally come to join the sds
01:56:50 um well they
01:56:52 well they it was a
01:56:54 it was a uh
01:56:58 uh i was the uh on the desk dealt with trotsky's
01:57:00 trotsky's and although i hadn't been there long uh i was supposed to know all about them and uh
01:57:07 and uh [Music]
01:57:10 [Music] so i was the one that they would choose but also
01:57:12 but also um
01:57:14 um conrad was looking for people
01:57:16 people uh
01:57:17 uh that he knew were um
01:57:23 um enthusiastic about doing the work and that kind of thing and although i wouldn't say i was a shining star at work but um or over energetic he sensed that i'd got a lot
01:57:35 energetic he sensed that i'd got a lot to offer and so he he chose me but the um
01:57:39 um i didn't have any i didn't really have a choice i mean how could you if you're in that situation you're the anarchist on trotsky's desk and they're forming this special squad
01:57:50 and they're forming this special squad about trotsky's you've got to go i mean there was no um
01:57:54 um pressure or anything like that i just knew i would have to do it
01:57:57 but what was your role
01:58:03 i'm the squad yes well i've made it clear from the beginning i was not going to be an undercover officer for a song because it was against my nature i mean you know you could tell that i like to go about openly
01:58:14 openly uh not only that i wouldn't get away with it for one minute
01:58:18 minute um because christie or somebody would say hey what's he doing to you and so on so i said i wouldn't do it and but conrad
01:58:29 conrad um
01:58:30 um i don't want to be i'm pleasant not not unpleasant but i don't want to put him down in any way but
01:58:38 but he
01:58:41 he he took the job because it was an adventure
01:58:43 adventure uh
01:58:43 uh he had the feeling that it could be done and if if anybody
01:58:56 that it could be done and if if anybody was going to do it he was going to do it that is to say have undercover officers into these difficult um areas of left-wing extremism and now
01:59:00 and now he knew
01:59:08 he knew that i was a bit softer than that that and i would be there to kind of uh
01:59:14 uh restrain him from doing anything really stupid now that's what i uh
01:59:18 uh kind of tacitly agreed with him about so
01:59:19 so um
01:59:20 um if i can
01:59:22 if i can uh
01:59:25 uh i don't want to make too much of it really but i would help him with the report i would look after the office i would do this and the other but mainly i would go out and listen to the meetings
01:59:37 the meetings uh the
01:59:38 uh the bigger ones in what's name hall in red line square places
01:59:44 places that
01:59:45 that i had an overall view so when it came to the the day when we have to say
01:59:55 to say uh answer the big question is it going to be as rough as a present everybody seems to think or is it not um he would get it right that's so whatever he thought he would
02:00:06 he thought he would take account of my version of events so that's
02:00:10 that's it reasonably likely to be true and
02:00:11 and it wasn't articulated in any way it's just that i knew what i had to do and he knew what to expect from me
02:00:22 knew what to expect from me mr creamer can we look at some of the documents in the bundle i'm going to start with ones first of all which do bear your name could we start with
02:00:37 could we start with the document at tab 4 sir of your bundle and for the screen mps
02:00:55 i don't think it will be your bundle mr creamer i think i'm a it'll be a different document it will be um
02:01:00 um can you see the screen yes
02:01:01 yes good
02:01:07 good now this is a report dated the 19th of september
02:01:09 september 1968
02:01:10 1968 it's about the anti-imperialist solidarity movement if we go to the bottom
02:01:23 if we go to the bottom uh it's signed by you we've redacted your signature and counter-signed by conrad dixon yeah
02:01:34 yeah um perhaps if we stay with the bottom paragraph
02:01:35 paragraph which reads the anti-imperialist solidarity movement cannot be expected to have much
02:01:52 cannot be expected to have much influence on the vsc controlling bodies but as will be seen from the attached leaflet its potential for mischief is very high and the
02:01:58 and the report at the top tells us that it's just been formed so is this the sort of analysis that you provided
02:02:09 that you provided um i'm sorry to say so that that isn't um
02:02:13 um that is written by uh an undercover officer is it yeah i think uh i've talked about this and a lot of documents are of that sort where my name appears
02:02:24 where my name appears and all i can imagine is that um uh anything that came from the undercover officers had to be kept so secret even from the registry people that whenever they got one they simply
02:02:35 that whenever they got one they simply put my name on it uh because everybody would know that it was from the uh sds but uh
02:02:44 but uh only i would know whether i'd written it or not and um i thought to myself afterwards well when i write my own report instead of saying for example um the following has been received from a
02:02:55 the following has been received from a reliable source i should have said from a trustworthy source nobody noticed the difference but i would and so i'd know which were my reports and which weren't
02:03:07 which were my reports and which weren't but that didn't happen and these reports were all
02:03:08 were all filed and put away sometimes without my knowledge it was not to say i hadn't read them because obviously i needed to know what was in them but i would not have read them with my name underneath because i'd be
02:03:21 my name underneath because i'd be surprised i'd say well i haven't written this
02:03:24 this but that is the situation i'm afraid well from
02:03:28 well from from our knowledge of sds reporting in this period a lot of the reports are signed by the undercover police officers in this era and the i
02:03:41 and the i looking at that bottom paragraph i think mischief is a word that you use quite a lot isn't it it could be but uh are you sure are you sure it's not yours well
02:03:52 well um
02:03:53 um just have another look um
02:04:01 yes
02:04:13 well i have no recollection of it put it that way and uh
02:04:21 i obviously i wish i had but no no no i can't say that
02:04:27 don't worry mr creamer it is a very long time ago yeah we'll take that document down now please and if we can have in its place document tab seven of your bundles sir which is mps-074725
02:04:50 and this is a document which is a report dated the 6th of january 1969 about the vsc working committee again
02:05:00 again over the page it's signed by you and uh
02:05:01 and uh counter signed in this case by either ray or ryby wilson yeah
02:05:11 if we can go back to the top of the first page please yes
02:05:20 yes it says submitted here with the copies of the minutes of two meetings of the working committee of the vietnam solidarity campaign which were held on the 5th and 12th of december 1968.
02:05:38 the 5th and 12th of december 1968. now we've had to redact the content but can you help us is getting inside the working committee of the vsc
02:05:39 vsc and reporting on what it was doing something that traditional special branch methods were likely to have been able to achieve
02:05:52 able to achieve no they wouldn't they would not achieve that
02:05:55 that and i know it's difficult when we've had to redact the content but would the content likely to have been of use to special branch in preparing for the demonstrations
02:06:08 demonstrations that the vsc were organizing indeed yes if we could take that document down now please and if we could have tab 9 up it's ucpi
02:06:17 it's ucpi five zeros one four three two zero
02:06:28 and this is a report dated the 22nd of january
02:06:30 january 1969
02:06:32 1969 this is a
02:06:33 this is a a report that runs to several pages i can tell you that on page the bottom of page 4
02:06:42 of page 4 we have your signature again counter-signed by conrad dixon yes well that is more like my work really um
02:06:51 really um but obviously with the help of an undercover officer or maybe more than one and that is your analysis
02:07:03 one and that is your analysis broadly speaking of those maoist groups with an emphasis in
02:07:17 with an emphasis in those with mr manchanda's influence yeah yes you can see um it would be helpful but i mean my motive in in wanting to do that was that i was concerned that people understood which groups were doing a mistake you know
02:07:29 know it wasn't my anarchist so to speak it was these moments and uh so it was a kind of personal interest in that and but the young
02:07:40 but the young man who who got the information um
02:07:43 um i can't remember who he was or anything no names please okay if we could go to page three please mr creamer and i'm
02:07:52 and i'm looking for the penultimate paragraph the one that starts manchanda has one significant advantage yeah
02:08:03 yeah about two-thirds of the way down that paragraph it reads
02:08:14 down that paragraph it reads to a casual supporter he may appear to offer the ultimate in revolutionary activity and no one is likely to be excluded from his groups for aggressiveness
02:08:26 for aggressiveness or violence on public demonstrations
02:08:37 on public demonstrations was that your understanding of how mr manchander's groups worked oh yeah yes indeed i thought
02:08:45 i thought that yes exactly that because um in other words he [Music]
02:08:48 [Music] um a lot of sounding brass and tinkling simple about his methods but um
02:09:00 yeah
02:09:04 it's not kind of um final assessment it's just kind of um that is what it's like now what it would turn out to be eventually is probably a waste of you know
02:09:17 is probably a waste of you know nobody would take any notice of him at all but at that stage it was a potential to uh
02:09:20 to uh yeah
02:09:24 offer the ultraviolet revolutionary activity
02:09:26 activity and
02:09:33 and you know that's the way it was but i had to up the sort of um germ of the idea taught to me by the undercover office thank you
02:09:41 thank you could we now take that down please i'm going to move from documents which you signed to some documents which you did not sign
02:09:52 not sign and i would like though to know whether you either wrote them or had some input into them these are in the supplementary bundle that we've put together
02:10:08 that we've put together the first one is tab two sarah of your supplementary bundle it's mps-07300
02:10:18 and it's a report dated the 21st of august 1968
02:10:24 and that's very early in the life of the sds
02:10:32 sds it's the first of a series of reports uh summarizing as i understand it the sds's understanding of preparations for the october
02:10:42 october demonstration it's signed by conrad dickson it's counter-signed by arthur cunningham and it talks
02:10:53 and it talks about
02:10:54 about the
02:10:55 the internal
02:11:02 internal divisions between the different groups those in favor of a more violent approach
02:11:07 approach and those in favor of a peaceful approach
02:11:11 approach as well as the sort of targets that might be chosen on route
02:11:19 take as long as you need to familiarize yourself with the contents mr creamer but is that a report that you wrote for conrad dickson
02:11:30 wrote for conrad dickson no um it's a report that he wrote himself um and he's gone to make it makes that clear about signing himself and not including anybody else's name in it and what i think happened there
02:11:41 happened there that date is it yes this is before the demonstration took place isn't that yes this was a build-up to the demonstration and um
02:11:52 and um i feel a bit difficult about having to say this but um
02:11:58 um that wasn't from an undercover officer either
02:11:59 either it was
02:12:02 it was [Music]
02:12:04 [Music] a source that knew what was going on and was prepared to tell us but he wasn't informed exactly
02:12:16 wasn't informed exactly and uh i don't know who he was or anything like that and it wasn't um conrad
02:12:22 conrad himself who um had dealings with him it was another officer
02:12:33 officer i could tell you the name the name of the other officer but i'd rather not and
02:12:36 and it you could see that it's of a much higher standard than any of us could have written
02:12:54 even the vocabulary is different but uh the fact that they were closer to the uh hierarchy of the um vietnam solidarity campaign and it's quite apparent to me anyway and i don't think conrad uh for all his talents he couldn't have written it either
02:13:04 either right if we look at the next document the next document at tab three is nps07306
02:13:21 this one i can't read it it's on can you see it on the screen now no oh
02:13:31 no oh yeah this is this is another document which is signed by conrad dixon
02:13:42 which is signed by conrad dixon counter-signed by arthur cunningham yeah it stated the 30th of august so just over a week later yeah it's again about the forthcoming autumn offensive
02:14:01 autumn offensive it starts with a contextual paragraph about events in czechoslovakia then goes on to say that there's been a change of emphasis within the vsc in that the img
02:14:08 img was retreating from the logistics who are retreating from a violent stance
02:14:19 stance and then it goes on to provide some information about the political leanings of members of the liaison committee
02:14:31 liaison committee and some intelligence about different branches
02:14:33 branches our understanding uh mr creamer had been that these were documents that were periodic updates on
02:14:46 on the state of progress of preparations for the autumn offensive are we understanding these documents correctly oh yes yes i think he it was kind of progress report um every week more or less uh
02:15:05 anything of this nature and this level wouldn't be my he might confide in me and show me but uh by and large um that came from him and his um the
02:15:18 that came from him and his um the sources that were open to us then and so
02:15:23 and so what if any input do you think came from you um
02:15:31 it's difficult to say i i would like to obviously have been more open with what was going on at the top level of vsc but um
02:15:39 but um i wasn't i mean there's no reason about the bush it wasn't um in
02:15:52 in the thing that i was either expected to do or you know or ever did but
02:15:53 but um
02:15:53 um [Music]
02:15:58 [Music] as i say there there was a help um
02:15:59 um and if you think about it well if you think about um
02:16:12 the business of img sort of opting out of um this
02:16:13 this could well be what one i might have mentioned earlier is that some pressure had been brought to bear
02:16:20 to bear on them
02:16:22 on them by the
02:16:27 by the ordinary members of the labour party who felt that
02:16:29 felt that they'd gone too far and
02:16:32 and any uh
02:16:34 any uh advantages that they might think of being a light to the labour party or whatever like that would go out the window and they were treated as
02:16:49 the window and they were treated as pariahs and the rest of it that kind of um frightened them a bit and or not frightened them but concerned them and uh
02:16:50 and uh they
02:16:53 they they dropped out but only somebody was well happy that would would know i mean and it wasn't i well i say it wasn't just i hope it was a an individual
02:17:05 an individual officer but i can't imagine it i don't think anybody wants uh however diet is to produce such stuff really
02:17:18 really okay can we take that down and can we go to the document at tab 5 which is mps 073064
02:17:24 which is a again a
02:17:29 a again a it's a two-page report signed by conrad dixon
02:17:30 dixon dated the 19th of september
02:17:41 and this one is it post-dates the national councils the vsc's national council's meeting on the 7th of september 1968 which had decided uh largely on the
02:17:59 which had decided uh largely on the route and form of the demonstration it reports that uh those decisions were being
02:18:00 being hotly debated uh within uh vsc branches across the country and then relates events at the large meeting held in
02:18:16 events at the large meeting held in conway hall on the 17th of september at which
02:18:18 at which as we understand it the maoists had been outvoted by others as to the final route and it had been decided that the route would not go past the us embassy
02:18:38 would not go past the us embassy it does so uh go on effectively to communicate that there were maoist-influenced groups such as the earl's court and notting hill branches of the vsc that were going to take no notice of the vote and go
02:18:51 and go go their own way anyway now we have seen a lot of vs a lot of sds reporting about the meeting in conway hall
02:19:02 about the meeting in conway hall about branch meetings discussing events at the national council and we know that there were sds officers in both the earls court and notting hill branches of the vsc
02:19:21 we understand this to be essentially an amalgamation of intelligence gleaned by the sds about the forthcoming demonstration yes are you able to are you able to help us with whether we're right or wrong
02:19:35 us with whether we're right or wrong about it you're on steady ground there yeah
02:19:36 yeah and again did you have did you have anything to do with writing this report at this stage i can't remember but probably yeah
02:19:57 to explain to myself more than anything um
02:19:59 um conrad
02:20:00 conrad was concerned with uh
02:20:04 uh trying to prove that all this business of undercover work could be done and it was an adventure i was more concerned that
02:20:15 that whatever else we should not make a song a dance and make anybody more alarmed than they need be that is to say i would tone it down if you said as often happens indeed
02:20:27 as often happens indeed that people said oh we're going to march on the
02:20:28 on the ministry of defense or uh manchin house or whatever this i'm saying no no don't bother with that i had a
02:20:37 i had a something to the effect that it was a lone voice or whatever and didn't mean anything so that when i looked at the report apart from anything else i was
02:20:52 report apart from anything else i was kind of in a kind of sub editor role of saying anything that was uh likely to um
02:20:54 um alarm anyone should
02:21:00 should either uh not be put in or toned down or whatever
02:21:01 whatever we had to
02:21:04 we had to carefully i know i did i mean because if that was
02:21:05 that was true and
02:21:06 true and uh
02:21:07 uh so on and they were going to do that then obviously i couldn't interfere but if it was unlikely and just kind of thrown into uh
02:21:17 uh because somebody reported it um i would pressurize conrad to take it out so in a way that was the kind of um
02:21:35 that was the kind of um area in which i felt i could be useful but as for getting the information in the first place that was um between conrad and the staff i didn't interfere in any of that i had no idea who'd done what thank you
02:21:44 thank you if you could take that down now just going to show you one last document of this sort for a specific reason if we could have up tab six mps-073096
02:22:11 now this is a another of these updating reports described as a regular weekly report it's dated the 3rd of october 1968.
02:22:16 1968. what i'm interested in is the very bottom of this page thank you subparagraph c reads
02:22:28 thank you subparagraph c reads information from glasgow indicates that about 400 demonstrators will be coming from scotland
02:22:39 from scotland of whom 160 will be from glasgow itself the latter contingent of being advised to wear crash helmets an urge to carry ball bearings fireworks
02:22:48 fireworks hat pins and banner poles for use as weapons
02:22:52 weapons can you recall any concerns about uh
02:23:02 uh glass violent glaswegians being expected at the demonstration no um but um i know
02:23:13 i know in the early days we did not
02:23:17 did not presumably this came from the special branches up in scotland and in the early days we were not um i don't know we just didn't
02:23:28 i don't know we just didn't contact provincial officers about our demonstrations
02:23:34 because that was just tradition we've never bothered
02:23:35 bothered but
02:23:42 but they obviously had a change of heart and uh wrote to us all the special branches i think and uh along the lines uh anything you can do to help us would be
02:23:53 to help us would be greatly appreciated and so on so this has come from them now
02:23:58 i can't remember um i can't remember it in particular but i think if it had to come to me to have a look at i would say uh
02:24:11 uh well i can't stop you putting it forward but
02:24:12 but be skeptical about it because um what people say they're going to do when they're on the bus or whatever is not necessarily what will happen when they get there they might find they're
02:24:24 they get there they might find they're outnumbered or that they're reluctant or whatever so that it it's not guaranteed this sort of thing will happen but if we've been warned that it's going to happen
02:24:35 to happen it's got to be mentioned and the a8 ought to know so in a way um it wouldn't i wouldn't interfere and i wouldn't any interference from me wouldn't be welcome
02:24:46 interference from me wouldn't be welcome at all man okay we'll we'll come back to glass regions in a moment if we could take that down please i'm now going to take you to two documents which a date
02:24:58 which a date dated the 27th of october 1968
02:25:04 1968 obviously the day of the demonstration itself they're both telegrams the first
02:25:10 the first the first one is tab one of the supplementary bundle that's mps-0733955
02:25:20 this is the earliest of the two it's timed at 11 15 in the morning
02:25:31 another one you mean yeah without looking there this one says it's from you
02:25:32 you to the chief yeah have a look at this yeah it says it from you to the chief superintendent of special branch
02:25:50 branch and it says a group of about 20 maoists intend to commence leafleting at the embankment from 11 30 a.m onwards in order to catch the early
02:26:01 in order to catch the early demonstrators and persuade them to march later to grosvenor square and it's signed by a constable
02:26:12 constable we can see from what's written below that chief superintendent cunningham had spoken to commander lawless
02:26:24 lawless so this seems to be very much real-time intelligence on the day yes can you help us with whether you would have been on the embankment with the maoists or
02:26:37 on the embankment with the maoists or whether you were in the office sending the telegram from one part of special branch to
02:26:48 from one part of special branch to another no i was in the office and this is from one of the undercover officers well
02:26:56 well even there well yes it might have been undercover officer it may have been an ordinary um officer that wasn't undercover i see now if we could go take that down please could i ask him
02:27:09 could i ask him did the constable sign his name and so on yes we redacted we redacted it for privacy reasons yes it won't have been an sds it won't have been an sds officer because we would have put the sds office as nominal no but the fact that he signed it it
02:27:24 no but the fact that he signed it it suggests to me that it was an outside somebody outside the sds who have been detailed to look out that you know early in the day to see just for that sort of thing i think would ever do that
02:27:35 i think would ever do that good thank you if we could have up the document which is in the original bundle at tab 4a it's mps dash
02:27:56 now this is the one that was in your original witness pack it's again same date but later in the day
02:28:02 day 1845 hours
02:28:14 1845 hours this one says it's from detective inspector saunders to the chief superintendent special branch and is signed by you and it says i am in the vicinity of south ordly street
02:28:22 street since about 4 p.m i have been with a group of some 200 anarchists from liverpool and glasgow who broke away from the main march at hyde park corner they have engaged in various sorts of
02:28:37 they have engaged in various sorts of hooliganism in the vicinity of grosvenor square
02:28:38 square they led the charge towards the u.s embassy along south ordly street from its inception and for the past two and a half hours they have been confronting police
02:28:54 they have been confronting police they have been joined by contingents of the international marxist group and various vsc elements from hyde park they are at present at the head of the column in south ordly street
02:29:06 column in south ordly street which is confronting police at the junction of the southwest corner of grovner square i will give a full
02:29:17 grovner square i will give a full account of their activities in due course
02:29:19 course can you help us first of all with what was your role in the generation of this telegram
02:29:30 well it's a long time ago and i'm not quite sure but the um i was in the office for that very purpose to take messages from whoever was outside so i must have done that um
02:29:42 um and as for the content well d.i saunders would know more about what glasgow had told us so he would be uh
02:29:58 uh aware of the background and would see the dangers of all this and
02:29:59 and all i could do would be i think i didn't have to do it it looks as though
02:30:05 though um
02:30:08 um it says she superintended somebody or other to see this
02:30:12 this would be sent instantly to a8 because it was happening the drawback there of course is that um it such a long-winded way of getting
02:30:25 such a long-winded way of getting information 288 that it's probably too late i mean probably they were there before but the advantage for aa would be uh
02:30:36 but the advantage for aa would be uh they're on the spot and they can see just as well as sanders could but to be told by us that uh who they were would be helpful but of course it's uh uh
02:30:45 uh yeah
02:30:48 yeah it's good piece of work i can't argue with it it's very good and my message in part in it was simply to pass on the lessons because presumably you would have remembered if you'd been in grosvenor
02:31:03 remembered if you'd been in grosvenor square with 200 violent uh liverpudlian and glaswegian afterwards yeah it was fun apparently
02:31:16 i mean you know i was a bit disappointed to have to be put in scotland yard not not go out and see what was happening but
02:31:23 but that's the way it was um on to
02:31:25 um on to a
02:31:29 a rather more mundane matters do you know whether conrad dickson went to the home office or met the home secretary in
02:31:41 office or met the home secretary in relation to the october demonstration no i don't know i mean i didn't need to know there was a lot of that about if it wasn't you know you didn't need to know you wouldn't know
02:31:54 know we can take the document down now thank you
02:31:55 you do you know whether conrad dixon took any legal
02:32:06 whether conrad dixon took any legal advice or received any legal advice about how to operate an undercover police unit
02:32:10 well i'm not sure did well i'm pretty certain he didn't and it wasn't in his nature to do that he he saw this as a challenge
02:32:23 as a challenge and he didn't want to be inhibited by
02:32:32 a scruples that other people might have because he trusted himself to be scrupulous as the situation demanded no more no less and to be honest that's the situation
02:32:46 you've made various observations in your witness statement about
02:32:50 about what the sds did and did not do in relation to policing the october demonstration
02:33:03 demonstration what is your overall assessment did undercover policing make a big difference or not
02:33:14 make a big difference or not i'm not quite sure what the christmas is religion in policing the autumn offensive
02:33:19 offensive did the use of undercover officers make a big difference or not overall um certainly yes but on on the day no no you could say they weren't
02:33:34 in the position or they weren't even told what to do i mean they could go on it and obviously if their branch or group went on it but they had to behave themselves just like anyone else but overall
02:33:43 overall um
02:33:44 um the standard of information that a8 received from us was far higher than anything that could have been done before without a doubt
02:33:59 a doubt now one of the reasons why i asked you that is there were two comments uh
02:34:03 uh which were a little doubtful the first was
02:34:11 was you said that vsc groups were very badly supported sometimes and there would be hardly anybody there and looking there did not help but local but vsc groups were where a lot of sds offices were deployed
02:34:26 lot of sds offices were deployed yeah that's a that it's a situation about you i mean it can't be helped um you see uh
02:34:34 uh had the situation been such that there was a great deal of interest among the say the general public in um the vietnam solidarity campaign and
02:34:47 and these groups i mean these individual places like putney or whatever um
02:34:56 um filled up with people all anxious to get on the demonstration show how opposed they were to the americans into the war that would be one thing and that would enable you to say well look even at this level there's a
02:35:10 well look even at this level there's a whole lot of interest so you know it's going to be big now if it was the opposite which is what wasn't the truth that hardly anybody went there and those who went there weren't particularly
02:35:22 particularly uh
02:35:26 uh well not assault to alarm you in any way um
02:35:31 um that was helpful in kind of reassuring the powers that be that there's not good uh at least there's no great call or a big violent demonstration in fact
02:35:43 or a big violent demonstration in fact it's not much of a call for it you know at all
02:35:44 at all now
02:35:45 now you couldn't put that down as the very last word but it was just an indication that had we not gone there and looked at who was going to go
02:35:58 who was going to go um would have been missing out the fact that nobody much went there was helpful i have no doubt but extravagant of course i mean you shouldn't have that's what i felt at the time you shouldn't need to have a
02:36:10 shouldn't need to have a man of a rank of inspector or chief inspector going to a a meeting of six or seven people that that was awful i mean in in terms of use of
02:36:22 in in terms of use of offices but on the other hand potentially could have been very helpful as it
02:36:28 as it events turned out um
02:36:30 um it wasn't but you know
02:36:37 you know i don't think criticize anybody for it um because we had to do everything in a hurry um there was no hope of getting uh you know
02:36:47 you know information from the top and what undermined the whole situation was looking for evidence
02:36:57 evidence of
02:37:01 of pre-planning and plots to violence and all that kind of thing they did not exist so we were not going to find them anywhere and you know we had to work against that background hope uh so to speak
02:37:20 uh so to speak i i think i've written somewhere in my statement that um uh well
02:37:26 well forgot what it was now but you've written something to that effect i've done something that i think yeah righto thank you um can i move now to fatherly advice
02:37:38 fatherly advice i am you say that you gave fatherly advice to the officers about not taking drugs
02:37:49 about not taking drugs not getting involved in mischief and not getting illnesses what sort of mischief were you referring to oh well
02:38:01 i was really addressing myself to those who were going to do the anarchist uh
02:38:05 uh you know trying to join the nando's booth
02:38:06 booth oh they they do um flight posting which isn't that mischievous but they might do uh objectionable you know sort of
02:38:19 uh objectionable you know sort of painting of walls and for which they could very well be arrested uh
02:38:20 uh that kind of mischief that's not no not terrible but better not do it because then we've got a problem if they are arrested as to how to proceed i mean you can't go to
02:38:36 how to proceed i mean you can't go to the police station say let him go it's an undercover officer at least i felt that maybe you could but i didn't want him to get into that situation at all and in those days drugs were fairly novel but it was quite common about
02:38:49 but it was quite common about anarchist-minded people to smoke pot without a doubt and one of the consequences of injecting themselves with heroin or
02:39:00 injecting themselves with heroin or whatever it is is that they transmitted i can't what disease it was but some sort of disease which would do you know injure them for life really so i i felt they ought to
02:39:14 they ought to i don't say they needed that advice they probably knew more about it than i did but i thought that was the um uh gist of what i um concerned only with the anarchist law i didn't
02:39:23 didn't know too much about with the others about not getting illnesses well that's what i mean they're not getting
02:39:30 getting hepatitis b is it some such thing which you can't get if you mix with drug tests
02:39:49 that's what i meant were you referring at all to sexually transmitted diseases oh no no
02:39:51 oh no no to be honest uh i never gave that thought i i i'm amazed really that uh it should ever come up because uh it's quite
02:40:02 it's quite awful
02:40:03 awful and um
02:40:05 and um i imagined that uh they could flirt with people and do all sorts of things i mean you're dealing with fellows are very presentable and attractive young in themselves i mean
02:40:16 attractive young in themselves i mean they would get attention from women but it's nonsense to sleep with them i can't imagine any of the ones i knew i knew most of them would do such a thing
02:40:33 can i move on now after the demonstration you have written in your witness statement i thought the sds would pack up anyway
02:40:42 up anyway because we had done our job with the vsc do you think that the sds should have packed up yeah i do
02:40:53 yeah i do i'm afraid so because what we should have done and what the powers that we should have done was to say
02:41:03 say that was well done uh because it was uh but
02:41:07 uh but it's uh hedged around with all sorts of difficult problems why don't we sit back take a look at what we've done uh pick out the good bits throw out the bad bits and
02:41:19 bad bits and if we have to try again but i i've i really felt that uh we the battle had been won basically um
02:41:29 um well not so much that uh not the bsc demonstration but
02:41:32 but um one of the problems with demonstrations is the police were very reluctant to cancel them they they felt that the public wouldn't want them to cancel them and especially with the thing like vietnam
02:41:44 especially with the thing like vietnam um there would be more trouble if they tried to prevent them taking place and then was worth it but after the lewisham business which was a clash between national front and the left wing generally
02:41:56 left wing generally um
02:41:57 um the uh
02:42:01 the uh commissioner and whoever advises him um
02:42:04 um said well that we're going to be in a position to ban really violent demonstrations so in a way
02:42:10 way uh that
02:42:14 uh that clinched it for me i thought well fine we don't need any more undercover officers and i'm really quite surprised that it continued but um i had nothing to do with it i mean really i went back to my desk and uh
02:42:29 desk and uh kept out of the hair of the [Music]
02:42:35 [Music] well i just didn't have anything to do with them but i didn't know people involved except one occasion when arriving
02:42:45 arriving whatever one of the officers told me um that
02:42:46 that they were sure and needed somebody who could uh kindly look out and see what i thought and find somebody for them
02:42:53 them or
02:42:56 or if i found something for them would let them know
02:43:00 them know i did that once i think but by and large i wasn't
02:43:03 i wasn't an enthusiast for it because as you can see it's
02:43:07 see it's hedged about so many problems thank you
02:43:09 thank you operational security you say in your witness statement that there were verbal briefings by commanders
02:43:20 commanders and senior persons in the branch for example quote we do not want the sds to get out do not create trouble and do not make waves
02:43:35 and do not make waves yeah can you help us with what they meant by that well i think the man at the top in those days was uh ferguson smith
02:43:46 days was uh ferguson smith and ferguson smith had fought during the war
02:43:52 war and had gone on secret missions over germany as a raf navigator so he
02:43:54 so he uh
02:43:55 uh had this um kind of wartime feeling about security
02:44:02 security that
02:44:03 that you know
02:44:04 you know uh
02:44:07 uh dangerous talk and all that sort of thing
02:44:08 thing so he was
02:44:09 so he was uh of the belief and just said so that this should not get down it will not get out that's he would go as far as that
02:44:22 out that's he would go as far as that because i remember saying to him one day he could talk to its people uh
02:44:26 people uh in those days um however high the rank was and uh i said you know we um bought
02:44:32 bought to take the view that will do nothing that when it comes it ever comes to life that the public would not approve and he said to me it will not come out and because
02:44:47 it will not come out and because if you're going to start with that uh believe that it will not come out you have given carl blanch to do all well whatever ever you like and i thought that was not right but i
02:44:58 thought that was not right but i couldn't really say it couldn't hug him with him he was the boss and on the point that it should not come out i agree with him it shouldn't come out because i mean imagine if it had come out at the time
02:45:11 out at the time that the police had undercover offices there would be a much worse situation you know from the left they would resent it and people who wouldn't normally have gone to a demonstration they'd go over there and say we've tested against police and
02:45:24 say we've tested against police and interference in our lives and so on and so forth
02:45:32 i've got about 10 10 minutes 10 or 15 minutes more questions for you mr creamer are you are you happy to continue or would you like another break i couldn't have a drop of water of course you can
02:45:44 i must say so i don't sound too flippant about all this i know we're doing a very serious subject
02:45:49 subject but
02:45:50 but when
02:45:51 when when we were in that squad it was a lark in many ways it was an adventure and there was no
02:46:03 adventure and there was no ill will towards the the people were penetrating or whatever um it it was some an experiment to see if it could be done that was the theme of conrad's um
02:46:15 theme of conrad's um belief so a lot of the seriousness of it has been traded away right
02:46:26 may i just explain what we would like to do and you tell me if you're happy to go along with it mr barr says i think he has about another quarter of an hour's worth of questions uh we would then have a 20-minute break so that anyone who wants him to ask you
02:46:42 so that anyone who wants him to ask you things that he hasn't already asked can make that suggestion and he would then ask
02:46:45 ask whatever questions he thinks right arising out of that and then your counsel will re-examine you
02:46:50 you if at all very briefly in other words uh if if we adopt that uh arrangement you're likely to be here for at worst an hour uh and possibly a
02:47:04 at worst an hour uh and possibly a little less would you be content with that
02:47:04 that me personally yes i don't mind i don't like cup of tea now of course um can you wait for quarter of an hour for your cup of tea thank you
02:47:14 thank you now i was wondering can you wait for quarter of an hour to get your cup of tea or would you do you want to meet up spend it right then we'll ensure you
02:47:25 spend it right then we'll ensure you have long enough to have a cup of tea thank you mr creamer i'm now going to move to your time in special branch after the sds did you
02:47:34 did you uh ever occupy a role where you were compiling the threat assessments for a8 oh yes yes yes that that's what i really like doing
02:47:50 really like doing and when you were doing that did you have a a relationship with the sds
02:47:58 well it's a bit thorny really because um they were kind of snooty about it they would only say for example oh we haven't
02:48:10 would only say for example oh we haven't got anybody interested in that they were in
02:48:10 in i mean
02:48:15 i mean demonstrations come in all sorts of form and
02:48:19 and uh if it's not is and if it's not ws or whatever it's um img or one of the groups that they were involved with they couldn't tell you any more than
02:48:28 more than anybody else so it was a bit disappointing it was called special demonstration squad but it
02:48:38 but it didn't do what you would expect a special demonstration squad should do that is to say take over the whole business and do the assessments so they left it to us now
02:48:50 so they left it to us now it didn't cause any real friction it just made me feel a bit uh disappointed really that had i had stayed in sds myself that would have been my cheap purpose
02:49:01 been my cheap purpose uh you know to make use of it in that way but uh i didn't dare to ask what they were up to or who was doing what and i thought well we can manage without
02:49:14 and i thought well we can manage without go back to the old-fashioned methods and be all right of course tricky i mean uh by and large i was right about most of the things i assessed but i couldn't say that i was you know
02:49:22 you know 100
02:49:24 100 perfect
02:49:25 perfect um and
02:49:26 um and but i did but i could
02:49:32 did you ever make requests of the sds for intelligence about particular forthcoming events or particular fields no no no no i mean that people above me
02:49:46 no no no no i mean that people above me might have done i i dare say they would but um
02:49:49 but um i wasn't i wasn't in that position really
02:49:50 really uh
02:49:53 uh i mean even to go into their office i wouldn't
02:49:54 wouldn't do um
02:50:01 do um i'd left and they had their own problems and they didn't want to um
02:50:08 um they didn't want any any interference and i didn't want to were you able to make an assessment relatively as to how helpful the sds intelligence was
02:50:23 was in compiling threat assessments for a8 well in my time probably not much but what happened afterwards i don't know i think it got a lot better
02:50:33 i i didn't
02:50:37 i didn't oh well i had to take notice of the fact when they said we're not interested nobody's coming from img is and then ing or whatever um
02:50:46 um yeah i had to bear that in mind but
02:50:47 but uh
02:50:49 uh no i didn't think they're um what they had to offer the the ordinary squad officer doing an assessment in those days i thought could have been a lot better
02:51:00 a lot better but maybe
02:51:01 but maybe uh
02:51:04 uh you know the groups that demonstrated were weren't necessarily uh of interested well i mean there wouldn't be of interest to them but they were of
02:51:15 be of interest to them but they were of no account if you know what i mean some of the demonstrations that uh
02:51:22 people from what used to be the london polytechnic would uh run around the streets for bar for a while and make trouble
02:51:34 and make trouble but they were so small that the um sds probably didn't even know so we're not to assess that kind of a thing without the help of the sds
02:51:47 the sds but had there been anything larger than that which did involve the people they were interested in then they would have had a different role but
02:51:53 role but in my time though it wasn't very long to be honest um could have been two years or three years or whatever but um i i personally um
02:52:03 um but
02:52:10 but i don't want to knock them in any way it's just that that's the way it was can i show you now at two specific reports the first one is mps-0728-675
02:52:34 now this is a minute sheet on the front if we scroll down a little bit we will see there's a reference to you um which seems to suggest that you were to see this report
02:52:46 to see this report do you see that oh yeah well that was a fairly routine thing sir and yeah anything that to do with trotsky's or anarchists it would uh
02:52:56 that was in the non-sds part of the branch i i don't know i would have to see this report is in fact about the troops out movement so if we go on please to the next page
02:53:13 to the next page yeah it's dated the fourth of july 1975. it's about the troops out movement
02:53:19 movement and in particular it is a meeting of uh supporters of jerry lawless in other words
02:53:31 other words a meeting of a faction within tom who were at loggerheads at the time with the revolutionary communist group and workers fight
02:53:44 workers fight if we scroll down please and on to the next page rick gibson at the bottom there was a cover name of an undercover police officer
02:53:56 officer so there was a an sds uco at this meeting
02:53:57 meeting and if we go onto the next page uh you'll see the signatures chief inspector and the chief superintendent
02:54:11 we think that the signature of the chief inspector
02:54:12 inspector may have
02:54:14 may have revealed to you that this was sds intelligence would that or any other indicator on
02:54:26 would that or any other indicator on this have indicated to you that this was sds intelligence
02:54:35 the yes a because it's signed by chief spectre and not by a constable
02:54:41 i think that's a jh somebody and i did when i saw it earlier or before uh i don't know i did we had two people who could fit that one's uh
02:54:53 uh but i can't remember now jh
02:54:55 jh let me let me uh but whether he was on the sds then i don't know okay well let me take this document down and show you the next one which dates from march 1976. it's mps-0728785
02:55:15 it's dated the 25th of march 1976
02:55:21 and again on the minute sheet towards the bottom of the screen there you can see it says seen by d.i creamer amongst other things
02:55:34 amongst other things and it's got your signature on it so you see this report appears to have crossed your desk
02:55:36 your desk if we move down down onto the next page please see the report itself it's the 25th of march 1976.
02:55:49 march 1976. it's about the london coordinating committee
02:55:51 committee of
02:55:52 of tom
02:55:58 tom and if we scroll down further please it says
02:56:01 it says in the paragraph which starts at the top of the screen if you go to the bottom of that paragraph it says gibson was chosen to fill the post of convener
02:56:18 to fill the post of convener and privacy to take over from gibson as the tom london organizer so you see this undercover officer is assuming
02:56:27 assuming quite significant post caesar taking on the
02:56:31 the post of uh national convener for this organization
02:56:38 and if we scroll down to the signature block at the end of the report please
02:56:49 it's signed by jeffrey kraft would you have known at the time that jeffrey kraft was the detective chief inspector in charge of the sds yes yes i knew that
02:56:58 knew that so
02:57:00 so it would have been apparent to you wouldn't it that you were looking at a report from the sds
02:57:11 sds yeah yeah did you know that rick gibson was an undercover police officer
02:57:24 i've shown you you can i've shown you these two reports because for the first one shows that rick gibson was involved in factional infighting within the group he was meeting with one of the
02:57:35 of the factions
02:57:42 factions i am understanding your evidence to be that you did not know that he was an undercover police officer
02:57:53 if you had known that would it have been of concern to you that mr gibson uh was taking sides within an organization he was infiltrating of course
02:57:59 course yes
02:58:01 yes can i just go back a page and it says d.i creamy to see or seen or whatever
02:58:11 whatever and then it a chief superintendent a signature that i am this chief superintendent now that's all wrong isn't it let's just let's just get that minute sheet back up yeah yeah
02:58:24 it should be the first page
02:58:37 those cover sheets i'm afraid throwers from time to time thank you very much yeah uh see there yes where it says uh roy creamer and underneath it says chief superintendent well that's absurd isn't it so there's something
02:58:51 so there's something odd about the whole thing uh and
02:58:53 uh and at this stage i can remember clearly that i did not have anything to do with trump's health movement and it was it was
02:59:00 it was the
02:59:01 the concern of other officers and uh i personally thought lawless well i had an opinion of him rich i didn't tell you but the
02:59:10 but the uh
02:59:13 uh i didn't think i'd tell him to be honest and
02:59:18 and i wouldn't be interested in what he was up to to be honest even okay thank you um
02:59:25 would you have been concerned if you had known that the person who was calling himself rick gibson was an undercover police officer that he was also assuming high office
02:59:35 in the yes
02:59:44 it shouldn't have happened but then let's face it i could i couldn't even if i'd known i mean i wouldn't dare interfere with what the
02:59:55 sds were doing i mean apart from anything else uh troops out movement is related to irish matters isn't it it's nothing to do with homegrown trotsky's anarchists and
03:00:06 and uh maybe
03:00:09 uh maybe the powers that be thought that if they've got to keep tabs on irish matters uh well you know
03:00:21 tabs on irish matters uh well you know research goes everywhere so we'll have a look at trump's out movement which they're probably concerned about but i was and had no reason to be i mean it wasn't in my pack to talk so frankly
03:00:32 i saw it which i doubt i don't know why they've
03:00:32 they've seen by
03:00:36 seen by uh d.i creamer because they don't call it at home and secondly i wasn't at the time of chief superintendent thank you if you could take that down two more things i want to ask you about
03:00:50 two more things i want to ask you about the first is a document which is at tab 18 of the bundle ucpi5030775
03:01:12 now this is a note for file made by the security service on the 16th of march 1978
03:01:18 1978 and it re relates to a meeting on the 14th of march 1978 and as you will see from paragraph one it says that superintendent ray wilson and inspector roy creamer of
03:01:31 and inspector roy creamer of metropolitan police special branch discussed various aspects of anarchism with f7 and me
03:01:42 with f7 and me it was agreed that a we've had to redact the next bit and i would discuss the f7 contribution to the national special branch conference on
03:01:59 national special branch conference on domestic anarchists with c squad in more detail when we were clear about what we wanted to say in particular we would seek mpsb clearance for the use of target material one of the points we needed to put
03:02:19 one of the points we needed to put across was that provincial police forces needed to tell us and did not always do so about acts of violence committed in their areas with apparent political
03:02:21 political connections b mpsb
03:02:30 b mpsb would consider the possibility of putting someone alongside privacy and privacy of revolutionary struggle now my question to you is
03:02:44 now my question to you is is that reference at little b about putting someone alongside privacy and privacy of revolutionary struggle
03:02:52 struggle a reference to inserting an sds officer into
03:03:04 to inserting an sds officer into that group please when you answer don't say anything about any alternative sources
03:03:06 sources um
03:03:13 um well frankly i don't know i i remember going with ray wilson but what we discussed and things like that
03:03:20 that i don't know i think he took me along um
03:03:28 in case he was asked questions about anarchism and that kind of thing that he couldn't answer for himself but um that part of the conversation such as it was written down um
03:03:41 um i have no idea i didn't follow it i um i think we were in a position to say we will put somebody alongside because we had the sds but whether we said it or whatever not i don't know
03:03:59 in your experience and if you can't speak to this just say so but in your experience what influence did c squad have in the tasking of sds undercover police officers
03:04:09 officers um no
03:04:11 um no well
03:04:12 well um
03:04:19 it was up to the sds themselves i think the most that you could say would be uh c squad could
03:04:28 could have the power of veto or or even sort of put forward what they thought should they should be doing but
03:04:34 doing but i
03:04:38 i of my knowledge they didn't i think we all kind of kept it at arm's length because none of us
03:04:43 us were quite sure where it was leading are you able to help us with the role or influence that sea squad had in passing on
03:04:56 on requests from the security service to the sds for intelligence no i wasn't the admin man on two squadrons
03:05:05 squadrons you know i was one of the operatives there was uh that was from ray wilson and however uh to do with that and anything from
03:05:19 anything from the security service was treated with great you know sort of alacrity if they wanted it they were the people that mattered because they would not say they were our supervisors but they were one level
03:05:32 supervisors but they were one level higher than us and now we should do what they want really the last topic i want to ask you about
03:05:46 the last topic i want to ask you about did you ever sit on the industrial desk no no never i didn't want to know that you
03:05:46 you i think uh if the chairman agrees it's tea time it is there's 20 minutes to give you long enough
03:05:57 oh yes thank you very much good then we'll we'll uh adjourn for 20 minutes
03:26:31 all rise please
03:26:53 mr barr no more questions from me thank you any re-examination
03:27:01 thank you mr kremer your evidence is now finished i'm very grateful to you for illuminating for us as vividly as you have all those events of uh more than 50 years ago
03:27:10 years ago thank you
03:27:15 thank you then we will adjourn now until tomorrow at 10.
03:33:29 you