Mark Jenner (HN15) concludes his evidence with questions from S's representative. He admits S was 'kept in deliberate ignorance' of risks of sexual relationships before his deployment. The questioning covers Christmas parties where wives were thanked while officers colluded in betraying them, family holidays S took alone while Jenner holidayed with Alison, and the house move that left S isolated. Jenner admits funding Alison holidays from the family joint account and using Tunisia as cover for Israel trip. He concurs with MPS apology that conduct was 'abusive, deceitful, manipulative and wrong'.
00:17:25 Good afternoon everybody. Uh this afternoon's evidential proceedings are uh going to be live streamed but after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may report what they hear in the
00:17:37 devices may report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for photography or recording. Mr. Bar,
00:17:48 Mr. Bar, thank you, sir. Mr. Jenner, can I move now to the question of the absence of reporting
00:17:57 reporting about Allison? She attended the CRC Yes, she did. Yes. Initially. And she spoke regularly on issues of
00:18:10 And she spoke regularly on issues of interest to her such as education. She may have done. Yes. In the early days
00:18:17 days and anti-fascism. Again, possibly. I don't know. And as you've said, your approach was to hoover up
00:18:27 hoover up information. Uh she recalls being at the meeting to launch resistance. Do you agree? Yes, she would have been. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:38 Yes, she would have been. Yeah. Yeah. And also at the meeting to close the CRC?
00:18:42 CRC? Yes. Yeah. Undoubtedly.
00:18:48 Why is there no mention of Allison in any of your reporting? Um I I can't answer that. you certainly in the early days when I was going to uh
00:19:00 in the early days when I was going to uh when I first started going there um everyone who'd introduced themselves to me as as the initial membership I didn't really know who was what and how uh important or relevant they were at that
00:19:13 important or relevant they were at that particular time so she'd have been mentioned on that um I know that you know there's an inference I deliberately kept her out of the um of that but that that wasn't my intention I think I if
00:19:25 that wasn't my intention I think I if She hasn't been mentioned on this. There's no motive on my part not to have her mentioned either. It was only the the significant people at that uh
00:19:36 the significant people at that uh meeting or or not. That was my rec recollection of it. There's no intent on my part not to mention her for because of my relationship with her subsequently. Does it follow from that
00:19:48 subsequently. Does it follow from that answer that you did not consider Allison's contribution to the political life of the CRC to be significant? Well, I think her involvement um
00:20:01 Well, I think her involvement um she wasn't particularly involved. She didn't she went to that those meetings that you've uh described there, but she was I'd say reluctant a lot of the time. I I got her interest was sort of waning.
00:20:12 I I got her interest was sort of waning. That was my impression. A lot of the meetings she didn't go to, so I wouldn't have called her a regular attendee at the CRC. No. If it was suggested that you were rather
00:20:24 If it was suggested that you were rather demiss dismissive of her political contributions to the life of the CRC, would you accept that? No, I wouldn't accept that. No, not at all.
00:20:34 all. Why not?
00:20:35 Why not? Well, because obviously she's been commitment. She'd been around there before I was involved. Um, I'm not dismissive of it. There was probably a lot of people in these meetings that I didn't mention.
00:20:49 Could we have now the document at tab B70 MPS309529?
00:21:17 This is a recommendation for your commendation. Uh and it uh if we go go to
00:21:29 Uh and it uh if we go go to the
00:21:30 the penultimate paragraph please.
00:21:37 All SDS officers and their families undergo
00:21:42 undergo considerable upheaval during the course of their tours of duty. DC Jenner was no exception. On many occasions, his work interfered with his leave period, but he
00:21:54 interfered with his leave period, but he accepted without question the exigencies of his work and the need to give that priority over domestic arrangements. that appears to have been written by
00:22:05 that appears to have been written by somebody who understood that you were not taking leave in the normal way. No, I wouldn't read it as that. I mean, this is a very generalized uh um summary
00:22:16 this is a very generalized uh um summary of my involvement. I I don't know who who would have written this, but um
00:22:21 but um if we go over the page and see who it's okay,
00:22:27 it's HN58.
00:22:31 Okay. I think it was um I mean it's a
00:22:44 I think it was um I mean it's a commendation. It's basically it's a thanks. It's not a medal or anything of that significance. It's purely a special bank's recommendation for for the work that you've did. But certainly you know
00:22:55 that you've did. But certainly you know in leave period accepted without the question of exigencies of his work. all special branch off SDS officers um gave up uh that nobody used up all their
00:23:07 gave up uh that nobody used up all their annual leave allocation in that was that was a normal thing um so yeah I think that was a generalization rather than specific to me in my circumstances by this stage the 15th of September 2000
00:23:21 by this stage the 15th of September 2000 did HN58
00:23:24 did HN58 know about your sexual relationship with Allison
00:23:28 Allison I don't know because I didn't go back to work until October of a couple of years. It's a couple of weeks later. Can we take that down now, please?
00:23:42 Can we take that down now, please? Just a question I should have asked you about the lack of reporting on Allison. Was any part of your motivation in not reporting on Allison to try and cover up
00:23:53 reporting on Allison to try and cover up your sexual relationship with her? No. No.
00:23:58 No. No. Speaking to future UCOs, is it right that you spoke to Carlos Saraki uh before he deployed? I did.
00:24:08 I did. Did you discuss with him the question of as it had been put to you the inevitability of sexual relationships undercover? No, we didn't. It was our discussions
00:24:20 No, we didn't. It was our discussions mainly were around similar afer red action that not any sort of relationships either. No, not at all. So, were you talking to him about people
00:24:31 So, were you talking to him about people like Steve Hedley and Frank Smith? Yeah, there were not about Frank Smith. I didn't really know Frank Smith, but certainly Heedley. Yeah. And telling him that Mr. Hedley was a
00:24:43 And telling him that Mr. Hedley was a violent man. Well, I told him the sort of character he was in my experience. I saw him and and various others who he may and may or may come in contact with. What I'm driving at is did you describe
00:24:55 What I'm driving at is did you describe Mr. Headley to Carlos Saraki in the terms that we saw written up in the reports?
00:25:00 reports? I think yeah, that was my assessment of him. Yeah, he could handle himself and he was he was Yeah, he could be a violent man. Although you'd not actually seen him being violent? No, but by reputation and what I knew of him, that was my opinion of him, that's
00:25:12 him, that was my opinion of him, that's all. And are you sure there was no mention of sexual activity undercover at all when speaking to I did not. No, I didn't. And I would never mention that to any of the uh colleagues. Again, it was the same sort
00:25:24 colleagues. Again, it was the same sort of scenario as it was when I joined uh that unit. It just wasn't spoken about and I certainly wasn't going to and he never asked me. But it had been a very big part of your relation of your
00:25:35 big part of your relation of your deployment and in the matters that we were going over before the lunch and adjournment matters which you told us caused you a lot of turmoil.
00:25:46 lot of turmoil. Mhm.
00:25:47 Mhm. Did you not warn him? No. No, I didn't.
00:25:54 Can we have up from tab B71 MPS 309432?
00:26:05 Now I appreciate that this is a document that postdates your time in the SDS. It's dated the 10th of October 2000. It's an office note uh and it is
00:26:18 2000. It's an office note uh and it is about the possibility of having external people acting as girlfriend or boyfriend to an undercover police officer. If we could go over if
00:26:31 police officer. If we could go over if we go page five, sorry, paragraph five, which starts at the bottom of page one and goes over uh to page two. I'll give you a moment to read
00:26:44 I'll give you a moment to read paragraph five.
00:27:12 Okay. So, the the wording of that um suggests that the author knew that uh your
00:27:25 that uh your uh circumstances were such that nobody would need to ask about your situation so far as sexual
00:27:37 about your situation so far as sexual relationships are concerned. That that's what it reads are. Yes. And of course the truth was that's correct because you were in a sexual relationship with Allison.
00:27:48 relationship with Allison. Correct.
00:27:49 Correct. If we could zoom out of that and look at who's
00:27:54 who's signed this. It's produced by Sergeant Titty and it's going to HN58, HN53 and Sergeant Null War and
00:28:06 Sergeant Null War and Greeny.
00:28:08 Greeny. It reads as if Titty might have known. Can you help us any further whether Sergeant Tiddy knew
00:28:19 any further whether Sergeant Tiddy knew about your relationship with Allison by this time? Well, I can only speculate. I know that um uh Sergeant Titty was on very friendly terms with HN58.
00:28:32 friendly terms with HN58. Um so the question really is was HN58 aware of of my uh circumstances at the time and whether they spoke, but I I
00:28:43 time and whether they spoke, but I I couldn't say for sure. No.
00:28:47 And in terms of helping us any further with management knowledge, do you know whether or not HN53 knew of your sexual relationship with Allison?
00:29:03 Not as far as I was aware. No. Sergeant Mintosh? No.
00:29:10 No. Sergeant Web? Possibly. I don't know. Sergeant War? Yes.
00:29:19 Yes. And Sergeant Greeny? I don't know. Can you help me with how Sergeant War knew? Well, that that was the uh officer that
00:29:31 Well, that that was the uh officer that claimed to have seen me with a girlfriend. That was back back to this morning's evidence. Thank you. Uh can we now go take that document down
00:29:42 Uh can we now go take that document down and have up tab B45749473
00:29:51 page three please.
00:29:56 Uh this is a file note produced by HN53 on the 16th of July 2001. Could we expand the text please? Give you a
00:30:07 expand the text please? Give you a moment to absorb that.
00:30:36 Okay. Yeah. So, the paragraph that I'm interested in is the one that begins TS is relatively relaxed. Somebody is trying to find you.
00:30:47 relaxed. Somebody is trying to find you. Um, can I take it that somebody spoke to you about this inquiry? Um,
00:30:55 Um, I think it might have been uh the person on here called Terry uh directly and HN53 wrote this. So HN53 must have
00:31:09 and HN53 wrote this. So HN53 must have got it from somewhere. Has he got it from you?
00:31:12 from you? Has he spoken to you about it? Yeah, I spoke to him, I think. So yes, I gave him that information. Uh, and so you said to him something to the effect of you thought it might be uh
00:31:24 the effect of you thought it might be uh Allison behind these inquiries. That's that was my initial thought. Yeah.
00:31:28 Yeah. And did you what context did you give HN53 about that about my reason for suspecting it was uh
00:31:39 about my reason for suspecting it was uh well I think it was because it was just one of the people that I was you know close to and this is you know an inquiry based on that. I didn't I kept it very loose and you know as you see I didn't I
00:31:51 loose and you know as you see I didn't I wasn't going to go back into all of the the wherewithal. So I I went reverted back to saying it yeah he should he occupied a room in his former dove and the girlfriend of Mark Metaf that was just to because I didn't at this stage I
00:32:03 just to because I didn't at this stage I was trying to detach myself away from this. I just sort of give him that story and he can run with it. So let me be clear. But you lied to HN53 by telling him uh that Allison was Mark
00:32:16 by telling him uh that Allison was Mark McAff's girlfriend. Yeah, I did. Yeah.
00:32:21 And you did that to keep the knowledge of your sexual relationship from him? Yeah. Yeah. Completely that. Yeah.
00:32:32 Did he make any inquiry of you as to uh why Allison might be sufficiently concerned about your welfare to be
00:32:44 concerned about your welfare to be inquire to be putting in hand investigations after your whereabouts? I um I I can't remember but part of my uh the exit was
00:32:58 remember but part of my uh the exit was and the reason that I went back uh for that time was to to gauge the the reaction from people that I know not just Allison. So they were aware of that and and also I think there was just
00:33:10 and and also I think there was just there would be inquiries about people who were concerned about my welfare. So that was you know that was the background to that. Yes.
00:33:20 What I'm driving at was was HN53 at all inquisitive with you as to why a woman would be going to quite significant lengths to try and find you?
00:33:32 lengths to try and find you? Uh, no. Because I think it in this uh particular instance it it wasn't I think it was a woman. Uh I think this on this particular one it was a it was a male.
00:33:45 particular one it was a it was a male. Yeah. Well, let's we can have up there's another document on the subject. It's a document ending 9531. It's an MPS number
00:33:56 It's an MPS number three zeros.
00:34:08 We could have the text expanded please. says Bob Lambert contacted contacted the office on Friday the 28th of May to say that Terry had contacted him to say that
00:34:20 that Terry had contacted him to say that he had had a phone call from a female calling herself Allison who was inquiring where a touchy subject could be. She made reference to your white van
00:34:31 be. She made reference to your white van and that he bought it off Terry. She also spoke of TS coming from Burken Head and referred to his father's illness. She said that she thought he was probably touring around Germany in his
00:34:42 probably touring around Germany in his white van. Then it explains essentially that um there was a very vague uh response from uh Terry.
00:34:54 Is it still your evidence that Terry spoke to you? I this is separate from the the previous one is yours. Well, this is the 28th of May and the document what I was asking
00:35:05 May and the document what I was asking you about was a document um dated the 25th of June because there were there were two contacts during this I can't remember which one was which. The first was it I
00:35:18 which one was which. The first was it I think that was just a it was inquiries that were made and there was a it turned out to be a private investigator. I don't know if that's the same. Yeah, the private investigator was instructed by Allison on the 24th, the day before the
00:35:31 Allison on the 24th, the day before the document that I showed you a moment ago. Okay. All right. So, yeah, on this occasion, um, no, I it I don't I I don't think I spoke to to to Terry on on this
00:35:43 think I spoke to to to Terry on on this occasion. I don't I certainly did the first time round because he said that, um,
00:35:49 um, yeah,
00:35:51 yeah, let me see if I can help. Our understanding is that Allison has called Terry in May. Yes.
00:36:00 Yes. And that an investigator calls Terry in June. Right. Okay. it. Well, in the when Allison contacted Terry, Terry then contacted me to say that um someone
00:36:16 contacted me to say that um someone what did he say porting to be my partner I think it was had been in touch making inquiries. Um and that was then I contacted the
00:36:27 Um and that was then I contacted the office and we got the ball rolling on the back of that which probably ties into the the first uh inquire. But on the second time round, uh, no, I didn't speak to Terry. I'd have got that from
00:36:39 speak to Terry. I'd have got that from the office. In terms of the the the document we were looking at a moment ago was from the second occasion, the one with the false information about Metaf and Allison.
00:36:50 information about Metaf and Allison. After after Allison contacts
00:36:55 contacts Terry, making the first contact in May, you say that you spoke to Terry and then management to set the ball rolling. What did you say to management on that
00:37:07 did you say to management on that occasion? I just said that um well exactly as it sounded that Terry had phon me and there was a female uh had had contacted and making inquiries about my whereabouts. I think I kept it pretty
00:37:19 my whereabouts. I think I kept it pretty vague from what I can remember. I can't remember my exact wording. But you covered up the fact that she'd said that she was your partner. I think yes. I must have done. Yeah. I I
00:37:31 I think yes. I must have done. Yeah. I I wasn't going to declare that. No.
00:37:37 Um if we take that uh document uh down now and if we have the first one back B45749473
00:37:54 page three
00:37:59 we could go over the page.
00:38:04 Can we go back to page two?
00:38:16 If we expand that please.
00:38:21 This is again by HN53 and it is
00:38:29 and it is an investigation into who's been calling Terry
00:38:35 Terry and it essentially finds out that it's somebody involved in investigations.
00:38:45 And the text says, "When I spoke to TS, he mentioned that he had been involved in a touch in his van sometime shortly before Christmas 1999.
00:38:58 Christmas 1999. At the moment, I cannot lay hands on any relevant documentation, but touchy subject did say that the driver of the vehicle was Asian and that there had been a couple of follow-up calls from him in the immediate aftermath. It may
00:39:11 him in the immediate aftermath. It may therefore be that this inquiry is somehow related to the touch. Can we just be clear? Was there a road traffic accident or is this part of a trail you
00:39:22 accident or is this part of a trail you are laying to cover up the fact of your sexual relationship with that? No, I mean there there was um a bit of a of a touch. Um I remember it happening
00:39:33 of a touch. Um I remember it happening in in Mahive. Um it was a bit of a the standoff with these these blo who did take the registration of the van. But I mean that that's what did happen. I'd
00:39:44 mean that that's what did happen. I'd forgotten about that until I read that then. But certainly at this stage I wasn't going to allude or make any sort of reference to um Allison or that whole relationships thing. I was pushing
00:39:56 relationships thing. I was pushing myself away from all of that. Back to your recollection of the call coming in first from Allison and then from a private investigator. Can you remember how how far apart they were as
00:40:10 remember how how far apart they were as far as you're concerned? Not for definite, but I I'm sure they can only be like a month or a couple of weeks apart. It wasn't far. Uh can we take that down now? uh you've
00:40:24 Uh can we take that down now? uh you've already given some evidence that uh
00:40:30 uh Boiling
00:40:32 Boiling knew about your relationship with Allison
00:40:36 Allison um from seeing you together. Can Mr. Boiling's evidence is that you were quite open with him about the fact
00:40:49 were quite open with him about the fact of that relationship? Is that right? I think once he'd uh he'd seen me. Yes, I mean I did speak to him about it. I couldn't I wouldn't very deny it. He'd seen me in the street. I hadn't spotted
00:41:01 seen me in the street. I hadn't spotted him at the time, but yeah, I did speak to him about it.
00:41:07 Turning to the question of the of officers who did not have sexual relationships undercover, is it your understanding that HN81
00:41:21 is it your understanding that HN81 did Not.
00:41:37 Yes. Is it your understanding that HN3 did not?
00:41:46 Yes. Is it your understanding that HN60 did not?
00:41:58 Dealing first of all with HN 81.
00:42:06 Your evidence has been I'll take H181 as the example. Your evidence has been that it would have been unsustainable not to have a sexual relationship.
00:42:20 not to have a sexual relationship. HN81 managed it.
00:42:26 He found it sustainable. Would you accept that if you had wanted to avoid a sexual relationship under cover, you could have done so?
00:42:38 could have done so? Yes, it would have been possible to do it. Yeah.
00:42:42 it. Yeah. I if it had been a specific criminal offense for an undercover police officer to deceive a member of the public into
00:42:53 to deceive a member of the public into sexual activity, would you have sexually deceived Allison? No, I wouldn't have joined the SDS.
00:43:05 Can we go to go to now the document at B78726507
00:43:24 we're moving forward a long way in time now if we expand if we could expand that document please This is
00:43:36 an interview with people who are managing the risk following an indie media article about
00:43:47 following an indie media article about you on the internet. Takes place on the 7th of February at Tintagel House. Uh you're present with a detective inspector and detective sergeant HN367.
00:44:02 inspector and detective sergeant HN367. Do you recall this interview? I don't actually. No. If we go uh to page four, please
00:44:15 second paragraph.
00:44:22 Sorry, the paragraph that begins within a year.
00:44:26 a year. Thank you. Within a year, he had found himself a long-term partner, Allison. Now, this is
00:44:37 Allison. Now, this is stating what the India article said, who was also active in the center. MJ stated that he did not have a relationship with anybody when deployed.
00:44:51 relationship with anybody when deployed. He believes Allison was an ex-girlfriend of Mark Metaf. That was simply a lie, wasn't it? It was. Yeah. He added Allison was in a relationship
00:45:03 He added Allison was in a relationship with a male named Bert who started a travel business called Privacy. That was a lie as well, wasn't it? It was. Yeah.
00:45:15 It was. Yeah. If we uh go down now to page five,
00:45:23 the last sentence on the third or the third paragraph, please. When you read it, it's towards the end. I'm interested in
00:45:52 This is about your exfiltration. Mhm.
00:45:55 Mhm. Um, the reference to a communal phone was a lie, wasn't it? At Allison's flat. Yes. Yes, I was a liar.
00:46:07 Yes. Yes, I was a liar. Page five, fourth paragraph.
00:46:18 This is about the credit card being found.
00:46:23 found. You'll see in the fourth line, MJ stated he did not lose any real o or covert documentation. He added that one occupant of the privacy privacy flat was
00:46:34 occupant of the privacy privacy flat was privacy who was a petty thief and that may explain documents. Cannot recall the incident explained. Those were lies, weren't they? Yes, they were.
00:46:45 Yes, they were. Page five, fifth paragraph, please.
00:46:53 Give you a moment to read that.
00:47:19 Yeah. Okay. So, in terms of who had gone to Vietnam and in terms of the denial of counseling, more lies. Yes.
00:47:30 Yes. Page seven.
00:47:35 Uh and towards right towards the bottom the very end asked MJ if he had been involved in any criminality. Said he did not wish to incriminate himself. Above that asked if
00:47:49 incriminate himself. Above that asked if he had taken drugs. Said he hadn't MJ if he had had a sexual relationship whilst he was deployed. MJ said he had not had a sexual relationship. More lies.
00:48:02 a sexual relationship. More lies. Yes. Yeah. Why were you lying to these risk assessors? Because I really didn't care at that moment. This is sort of 11 years on. Um, and I, you know, I doing my best to put
00:48:15 and I, you know, I doing my best to put all of this behind me. So, I just, I wasn't interested basically. Are you a man who lies readily when it comes to the STS matters? Yes, obviously I was at that time. Could we
00:48:27 obviously I was at that time. Could we take that down now and have up tab B81 722270
00:48:38 and if we go thank you give you a moment to absorb uh this but this is the uh disciplinary charge uh that was
00:48:49 uh disciplinary charge uh that was raised against you in July 2013 isn't it?
00:48:53 it? Yes it is. Yeah. um as a result of Operation Hearn's investigation. Yeah.
00:48:59 Yeah. So, just keep that up. Go back to 2011 when you're being spoken to by the risk assessors. You're still a serving police officer at that time, aren't you? I am. Yes.
00:49:10 I am. Yes. And you know uh that sleeping with members as the of the public as an undercover police officer is wrong. Yes. Yes. By this stage, yes. And you
00:49:22 Yes. Yes. By this stage, yes. And you know that if you had admitted to the risk assessors in 2011, you would be exposing yourself at the very least to professional misconduct
00:49:35 very least to professional misconduct charges.
00:49:36 charges. Correct.
00:49:37 Correct. Of the kind that were likely to lead to your dismissal and disgrace from the police force. Potentially. Yes. And that you might even find yourself in
00:49:48 And that you might even find yourself in trouble with the criminal law. Potentially. Yes. Misconduct in public office. Yes.
00:49:55 Yes. Is that why why why you were lying in 2011?
00:49:59 in 2011? Yeah.
00:50:01 Yeah. Uh no. I think at that time there was a you know it was starting to unravel anyway around the the sort of publicity thing. Um
00:50:11 thing. Um I don't know. I just didn't want to admit it to the to the uh the office at that time. Although by weight of the evidence that was coming in publicly, I didn't have a lot of choice. So yeah, I
00:50:23 didn't have a lot of choice. So yeah, I was trying to hold out for as long as I could
00:50:27 could at least in part to prevent the disciplinary consequences being visited upon you.
00:50:33 upon you. Well, potentially, but I there were control over that. Could you explain? Well, if you know I was put under a disciplinary action, then of course, you know, I couldn't. That's what they were
00:50:45 know, I couldn't. That's what they were going to do. Once it got to that stage, um, and I was going to be interviewed under caution, obviously I couldn't I wasn't gonna lie then. Well, I'm talking about 211 2011. You
00:50:59 Well, I'm talking about 211 2011. You haven't been charged at that point, but you must have known that if you had admitted to the risk assessors what you'd actually done, Yes.
00:51:09 Yes. you would be charged. Yeah. Well, I'd certainly investigated. Yes.
00:51:12 Yes. And probably sacked. Possibly. That is a possible consequence. Yeah. And so my question to you is avoiding that consequence was one of the reasons you
00:51:23 consequence was one of the reasons you lied to the risk assessors. Well, yes, that would have been part of the considerations indefinitely. Let's go uh to uh those uh disciplinary
00:51:36 Let's go uh to uh those uh disciplinary charges.
00:51:37 charges. Uh nothing actually came of them, did they?
00:51:40 they? No.
00:51:42 No. So your lies to the risk assessors helped to save you from a gross misconduct dismissal, didn't they? Well, possibly. Yes. And the consequence of that was it
00:51:54 And the consequence of that was it delayed justice for Allison, didn't it? If you say so. Yes. I'm assuming it would do. Yeah. Did you think about it in that way at
00:52:05 Did you think about it in that way at all at the time? No.
00:52:07 No. Did you think about Allison at all at this stage? No.
00:52:19 S finding out. Uh she says that she found out about the relationship when it was disclosed by the Guardian at the end of 2011. We can take that
00:52:31 at the end of 2011. We can take that document down now. But she says she didn't fully understand the article and thought they'd got their facts wrong. She says that you telephoned her the day
00:52:43 She says that you telephoned her the day before that article was published to warn her that you were being outed. Did you do that? Yes.
00:52:50 Yes. She says that you didn't mention the relationship in that call. No, I didn't. And is that because you were holding out for as long as possible? Uh I needed thinking time. I'd rather
00:53:03 Uh I needed thinking time. I'd rather speak to her face to face than the phone call. Yeah. Did you speak to her face to face about that relationship? No, I didn't. Why not?
00:53:14 Why not? Uh it was a conversation was just too difficult at the time and um you know I didn't uh I yeah in hindsight uh I should have done but of course by
00:53:26 uh I should have done but of course by that time when I did consider doing that we the relationship was broken down anyway and she didn't want to speak to me.
00:53:34 me. Moral cowardice. Yeah I think so. Yeah,
00:53:41 Essa's evidence was that the exaggeration of the threat posed made things worse. She thought that you were infiltrating actual terrorists.
00:53:54 infiltrating actual terrorists. Can you help us with what S knew about the level of threat during the course of your deployment?
00:54:05 the course of your deployment? Well, I think um she would she'd have known that there was an Irish element to to to my deployment. Um and and she'd certainly known that I'd been involved with violent
00:54:17 I'd been involved with violent individuals and there was potential obviously for repercussions on the back of that. Hence the need for the uh security measures at home.
00:54:27 home. Did she
00:54:30 Did she was she laboring under the apprehension that the threat was worse than that? Well, that they were a serious terrorist. Well, a serious, you know, someone
00:54:42 Well, a serious, you know, someone invading your home uh with an intent to get to me. Yeah, that is pretty serious and and worrying for her, of course.
00:54:52 At the point of your being outed, did you speak to her at all about the level of risk she would be at? We spoke about it, but it was obviously mitigated by the the the physical
00:55:04 mitigated by the the the physical security that was put in place around the house at the time. Um, but but obviously the location of where the house was at that time
00:55:15 house was at that time did did make it very difficult. It was reasonably isolated. So putting the question in the round, was your exwife
00:55:28 was your exwife allowed to labor under the misapprehension that the threat to her was greater than it actually was? No. No, I don't think so. No, because it
00:55:41 No. No, I don't think so. No, because it was a threat that would have been directed at me, not her. Uh but because uh you were living together as a family,
00:55:54 as a family, threat to you was also a threat to and to your children. Exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. So any sort of threat would have been Yeah. of a very serious nature and I understand
00:56:06 serious nature and I understand completely why she was worried about that.
00:56:11 that. Can we now go to your interview with Operation Hearn 24th of October 2013? So this follows the charge in the middle
00:56:23 So this follows the charge in the middle of July.
00:56:30 It's 722562 tab B83.
00:57:00 Go to page two. Thank you. This is the beginning of a record of interview. It's a record of a taped interview with you. Uh, and it says that you were
00:57:11 Uh, and it says that you were interviewed by a detective constable Andrew and another detective constable. And you had uh with you your solicitor, Mr.
00:57:22 Mr. Ingram. And we can see the date there, 24th of October. Yes. 2013. If we go to page three, please.
00:57:34 page three, please. Uh,
00:57:34 Uh, this was an interview under caution, wasn't it? It was.
00:57:38 It was. And if we go to page four
00:57:43 and if we look at the first paragraph under your name,
00:57:52 I just want to make a statement that I deny that I have acted in any way contrary to the law or in breach of the standard of professional behavior. My
00:58:04 standard of professional behavior. My acts were in the working undercover for the SDS or with the knowledge and approval of my line managers. Having taken legal advice, I do not intend to make any or answer any further uh
00:58:18 make any or answer any further uh questions
00:58:19 questions at this stage. Uh so essentially you made a no comment interview.
00:58:31 you made a no comment interview. Correct. Those words as uttered are slightly garbled. If we take that down and have up from
00:58:43 If we take that down and have up from tab B840739037.
00:58:55 This is the report of that interview. Uh, and halfway down the page, it says, "Mark, Mr. Mark Jenner then read out a
00:59:07 "Mark, Mr. Mark Jenner then read out a pre-prepared statement, and it's quoted there, I deny that I have acted in a way contrary to the law or in breach of standards of professional behavior. My
00:59:20 standards of professional behavior. My actions when working undercover for SDS were with the knowledge and approval of my line managers. Having taken legal advice, I do not intend to answer any
00:59:33 advice, I do not intend to answer any further questions at this stage. That is um the wording of your statement. If you want, I can take you to your actual handwritten.
00:59:45 to your actual handwritten. No, no, that's fine. That's fine. So if we can stick with the typewritten um uh formation uh you had acted in a way contrary to
00:59:57 uh you had acted in a way contrary to the law and in breach of standards hadn't you? Well in the context of this and I I was covered by at all angles legally uh and
01:00:08 covered by at all angles legally uh and uh you know professional behavior within the confines of the SDS. whatever I did within the SDS was professional and not contrary to the law and that's what I
01:00:21 contrary to the law and that's what I was referring to. Did you actually believe that being in the SDS um put you above the law? No, it didn't put me above the law, but everything was done could be you could
01:00:32 everything was done could be you could do pretty much what you want from kill anybody. That was the one of the things that was quoted to me at one time. It would be covered. you would be you're in a situation where you are,
01:00:43 a situation where you are, you know, it's it's an extremely unusual situation, but you had to be supported. We were supported by secrecy and the the management and the whole structure around SDS.
01:00:54 around SDS. Who said that to you? Is that the who said that you could do almost anything apart from kill any? Well, I think that was a a quote um following the um there was that conflict I
01:01:06 the um there was that conflict I mentioned the other day. There was a big fight with the loyalist in that pub where the pub got uh flattened. I phoned up um John Webb uh who was one of the
01:01:18 up um John Webb uh who was one of the sergeants back then and the following morning and to ask him and tell him about this. He said, "Well, I'll phone up the hospital to see because I was concerned there were possibly serious
01:01:29 concerned there were possibly serious injuries there." And that's what he said to me. So, don't worry as long as you haven't killed anyone. And that was that. So, doesn't sound like a conversation which you meant strictly literally.
01:01:41 which you meant strictly literally. No, but the sentiment that obviously was there that we were covered other than in extremist like that. You were at all times subject to the Metropolitan Police Services discipline,
01:01:53 Metropolitan Police Services discipline, weren't you? Yes, but again under the opaces of the SDS.
01:01:58 SDS. Uh and uh sexually deceiving a woman into a 5-year long intimate relationship
01:02:09 relationship as you did with Allison brings the Metropolitan Police Service into disrepute, doesn't it? Well, it does. Yes, it does. Yeah. My actions when working undercover for
01:02:21 My actions when working undercover for SDS were with the the knowledge and approval of my line managers. The basis of the evidence you've given us today, it was certainly with the
01:02:34 us today, it was certainly with the knowledge and approval of detective inspector Lambert. Yes. And others, I would imagine. Yeah. You use you use the plural there. Can you be crystal clear with us which
01:02:48 Can you be crystal clear with us which managers knew and approved of your actions?
01:02:55 The ones that were aware, well, again, uh certainly no war would have known about it. The people that thought, anyone that thought that they knew that I'd had a girlfriend
01:03:07 I'd had a girlfriend clearly knew that I'd had sexual relations with that person. you don't have a long-term girlfriend and not have sexual relations. So, by inference and
01:03:18 sexual relations. So, by inference and also um they were the ones that the obvious ones that had spoken about it, but it was it was just inconceivable to me that all of those line managers who worked around me at that time must have
01:03:30 worked around me at that time must have got wind of that known about it at the time. So, that was my assumption. So, yes, it was known um and I just got on with it.
01:03:41 with it. If we take that document, unless there were there any is there anybody else you want to add? I can't I I can't think off the top of my head. Those are the two obvious uh names.
01:03:51 names. Can we take that document uh down now? Can we have uh up from B12 527239
01:04:06 page three please?
01:04:11 Uh this is uh we're rewinding to uh the early days of your contact with the SDS the 11th of April 1994. This document is an internal document
01:04:23 This document is an internal document SDS candidate presentation to Commander Hops. Could we go to the fourth uh paragraph?
01:04:36 Each officer has been consistently assessed by supervising officers to have those five basic qualities essential to the undercover role. Initiative,
01:04:47 the undercover role. Initiative, integrity, self-motivation, sound judgment, and the ability to perform well in stressful situations.
01:04:59 perform well in stressful situations. Psychometric profiles appear to confirm these assessments. and additionally provide
01:05:07 provide valuable
01:05:09 valuable management information.
01:05:16 Would you claim now in the aftermath of your inquiry to have behaved with integrity
01:05:22 integrity within the I read that as being a role suitable within SDS and integrity you can read loyalty to that unit. uh not a general I think it's a generalization
01:05:34 general I think it's a generalization integrity by loyalty I would say that is and within those confines yes in the sense of someone who will tell the truth um you have had to accept that
01:05:45 the truth um you have had to accept that you didn't on very many occasions that that is true but then that is the definition of being an undercover police officer you are a professional liar but integrity means loyalty keeping that within the unit
01:05:57 within the unit your lies have gone well beyond the lies that you told to your group. They include a lot of lies that you told to your managers. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
01:06:09 Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Would you accept that you did not demonstrate integrity? Well, possibly not in those terms were certainly successful. Sound judgment?
01:06:20 Yeah, I suppose. Do you really think you exercise sound judgment in forming a sexual relationship with Allison and continuing it for 5 years in the context of what I was doing at
01:06:33 in the context of what I was doing at that time? That was a decision I made. I wasn't pushed into it. That was my own decision and I thought it would be of benefit to the operation that I was undergoing.
01:06:44 undergoing. I'm asking you to look back now. Are you maintaining that was an exercise of sound judgment? Looking back now 20, 30 years later,
01:06:55 Looking back now 20, 30 years later, probably not. Only probably not. Well, no. Clearly, it wasn't. No. Psychometric profiles appear to confirm these assessments and additionally
01:07:07 these assessments and additionally provide valuable management information. What we would like to know is this.
01:07:18 Did you give answers to the psychrometic psychometric tests that the were the answers you thought they want to hear or did you honestly
01:07:32 they want to hear or did you honestly answer the questions? I don't think there's any way of from what I remember you can't seconduess what they're looking for there. I just took them at face value and answered them. Whatever they were, I can't
01:07:43 them. Whatever they were, I can't remember. So if the inquiry is considering recruitment um of undercover officers for the future, can we take it uh that it was the tests themselves that
01:07:56 uh that it was the tests themselves that failed to detect uh risks uh that later eventuated? Well, I I I think it depends on how confident you are that psychometric
01:08:07 confident you are that psychometric testing will find out what sort of people that you're dealing with. And I I remember that myself and uh Jim Boing I think were two of the people who started
01:08:18 think were two of the people who started this. We were one of the guinea pigs for this thing. I don't think it' been brought in prior to this. Uh but again at that time we just it's a tick box exercise I think by management to say
01:08:30 exercise I think by management to say yes we we've done all our best to sort of filter out the right people and that's all we looked at it at being. Thank you. In the same file can we have page five please?
01:08:43 This is again a recruitment document. If we could have the second paragraph expanded. This is a profile about you.
01:08:56 profile about you. Born and raised in privacy, worked as a privacy before staying at home to look after the children. Like her husband, she is very relaxed and personable. DC
01:09:07 she is very relaxed and personable. DC Jenner is very much a family man and understandably proud of his children. Demonstrabably a happy household. Highlights of the Jenner's year include
01:09:18 Highlights of the Jenner's year include summer camping holidays in France and regular visits to grandparents. Was it true when you joined the SDS that you were very much a family man?
01:09:32 you were very much a family man? Yes, it is true. If so, what led you to behave very much not like a family man in your deployment?
01:09:44 deployment? Well, I think you you become a completely different person that is completely different from the person. So, Mark Cassidy was an a completely
01:09:55 So, Mark Cassidy was an a completely different person from Mark Jenner. Um, and so yeah, I I couldn't have got much further away in my undercover role than than that. But it did strike me at, you
01:10:08 than that. But it did strike me at, you know, why they specifically wanted people with uh stable family backgrounds to join that unit. Uh, that always struck me as a bit of a strange anomaly.
01:10:22 As I'm understanding you, you were back to where we were this morning because you were roleplaying to the full Mark Jenner.
01:10:30 Jenner. That's right. Yeah. You're not saying that you lost your identity.
01:10:33 identity. No, I always knew who I was. Yeah. Deep down.
01:10:37 down. If we could take that down now, uh, please. Uh, you gave some evidence this morning about being inoculated against hepatiti hepatitis B.
01:10:52 hepatiti hepatitis B. Can I just be clear when were you inoculated against HEP B? Uh it would have been while I was in the back office. So uh the end of 1994
01:11:03 back office. So uh the end of 1994 before I deployed. And was that because you were going to deploy as an undercover police officer? Yes. I wouldn't have had it any other reason.
01:11:12 reason. Was that standard practice as far as you were aware for every SDS officer officer to receive that inoculation? I don't think it was. No, I think it was at the suggestion of Bob Lambert, I think, who who's who had said to me this
01:11:26 think, who who's who had said to me this is right the very early days at talking about anarchists and squats and stuff like that. So, it was really his idea to be prepared for that. So, because you were at that stage,
01:11:38 So, because you were at that stage, That's right. the thinking was you were going to go into
01:11:40 into Yes, they were lifestyle. Yeah, that's right. Uh, was any part of the explanation connected to the risk of um sexual relationships?
01:11:52 relationships? No.
01:11:54 No. Did you think it was necessary? Um, I was willing to trust the judgment of Bob. And of course, you know, if you can um get yourself inoculated against
01:12:07 can um get yourself inoculated against something like this, I wasn't going to knock it back. I mean, it's it's quite an expensive treatment. It's a three-part treatment. So, no, I thought it was Yeah, I was willing to take it, but I didn't really appreciate I didn't think I'd need it, but yeah, if it was
01:12:18 think I'd need it, but yeah, if it was offered, I was going to take it and I did.
01:12:23 did. You gave some evidence earlier in your before today that Allison had procured a mobile phone for you using documents associated with her address. Uh, we
01:12:35 associated with her address. Uh, we we've been told that Allison denies doing that. Um,
01:12:44 Um, are you sure that she did that? Yeah, because as I said at that this this would have been it must have been 96 sometime in 96 you it was impossible
01:12:57 sometime in 96 you it was impossible in in those days to get hold of a mobile phone without having a fixed address um and and various other documentations which I didn't have clearly because I
01:13:09 which I didn't have clearly because I didn't have uh any sort of utility documentations etc etc. So, she offered, this is my recollection, she offered to get one. Um,
01:13:20 get one. Um, was it in my name or it was addressed to her um or the billing was addressed to her because obviously her name was on the the uh utility bills etc. But it was for my use. I can't remember whose name
01:13:32 for my use. I can't remember whose name the actual uh the phone was bought in but I used it on that basis until such time that I'd been uh resident at that flat to to get my own uh credentials.
01:13:48 Why couldn't the SDS provide you with a mobile? Well, I think in those days they were um my understanding of it what they were these were um contract phones and I
01:14:01 were these were um contract phones and I don't I don't remember it was possible for them to provide one. I don't know I I don't know what it was but I was certainly more comfortable in trying to uh get one myself. I did mention this
01:14:13 uh get one myself. I did mention this because one of the uh operators before one of the officers before me had one uh but he obviously gone the long way around and they he said that they they
01:14:24 around and they he said that they they won't buy you one. This is something you've got to get yourself. Um so who paid for this phone? I did.
01:14:33 I did. Well, no, I would have paid it. Well, I say me. It was with through the SDS uh fund. But your some of the evidence you gave when we were talking about accommodation was to the effect that in your role as a builder you were too poor
01:14:46 your role as a builder you were too poor to have something like that. Well, yeah. So was a builder. I was just a you know very sort of low paid uh builder. I was actually employed by somebody. I wasn't in a in a wage. But the it wasn't the financial side of it
01:14:58 the it wasn't the financial side of it so much as having the correct documentation to be able to get hold of one. Did using a name reg using a phone registered to Allison cause any risk to
01:15:09 registered to Allison cause any risk to her giving some of given some of the characters you were mixing with? Well, yeah, I can see your point, but I can't remember whether it was actually registered to her or whether she uh just provided the documentation, I don't
01:15:20 provided the documentation, I don't know, but certainly um had it been that way around. Yes, there would have been a a risk uh to some degree to her. Was that a risk you gave any consideration to?
01:15:34 Not especially no because it seemed a very low risk at the time. Can I ask you finally at this stage of proceedings, have you spoken to other undercover
01:15:46 have you spoken to other undercover officers about the inquiry?
01:15:57 Yes, I have. Yes. And have you spoken to them about the evidence that you were going to give? No.
01:16:05 No. In being very careful about um anonymity, writing down the names uh unless you're absolutely sure they can be uttered publicly. Uh can can you let
01:16:16 be uttered publicly. Uh can can you let us know who you have communicated with? Yeah, certainly one officer is
01:16:47 Thank you.
01:16:59 So those are all my questions at this stage. I understand there may be an application for you. So do I. Um, can the uh live uh link be cut off at this
01:17:13 the uh live uh link be cut off at this point, please?
01:17:21 We've had an email from Mr. McCullik. Um,
01:20:20 No, I wasn't able to access that. No. And you haven't watched a recording of it?
01:20:24 it? No, I haven't. No. Was that not of interest to you? It would have been, but I I looked at uh trying to find the thing on YouTube, but I couldn't find it. So, I I I say watched a recording. I think
01:20:36 I I I say watched a recording. I think it was not in fact a video. It was a an audio recording only. Okay. No, I Well, I haven't. No. And of course, it would have been of interest to me, but I couldn't find it.
01:20:49 to me, but I couldn't find it. So, we know you married S in August of 1986.
01:20:53 1986. Correct. Yeah. And by the time of your deployment in the SDS, you had young children. We're not stating uh ages or numbers. Correct.
01:21:05 Correct. and S had a further child with you during your deployment with the SDS. Again, not stating years or dates. Correct.
01:21:16 Correct. And you were married, you remained married to S after your deployment ended.
01:21:22 ended. Correct.
01:21:24 Correct. In your evidence yesterday, you stated that prior to your SDS deployment, you had been faithful to S for many years.
01:21:35 had been faithful to S for many years. Had you always been faithful to her before your deployment? Yes.
01:21:42 I want to turn to uh Bob Lambert's visit to your home to meet S. Uh uh and it's a visit at which you were present. Yes.
01:21:54 Yes. Do you remember that visit which as far as one can tell was in early 1994? I do remember it. Yeah. In your witness statement, you suggest that DCI Edmonson accompanied Di Lambert
01:22:07 that DCI Edmonson accompanied Di Lambert on this visit. Correct.
01:22:10 Correct. Is that still your recollection? Yes, it is. Uh, S indicates that she recalls only Bob Lambert being there. Do you think you might be mistaken? No, it's definitely both.
01:22:23 No, it's definitely both. you've seen and we'll come to it in a moment uh the note which refers to that visit which indicates only Bob Lambert
01:22:34 visit which indicates only Bob Lambert being there. There's no reference to to DCI Edmonson being on the visit. I definitely re recall that both of them unless there were two visits but yes
01:22:45 unless there were two visits but yes they were both together.
01:22:50 So your recollection differs from that of S far as it goes the the note it would appear to but I say are we talking about one visit or two I can't remember
01:23:01 remember I think there's only suggested that there was one visit right in that case it was definitely accomp by uh DCI Edmonson yeah as to that visit s describes a chat over
01:23:13 as to that visit s describes a chat over a cup of tea with her obsenting herself elf to make the tea for part of the visit. I think in her oral evidence, which you won't have heard, but she said that she wasn't
01:23:25 have heard, but she said that she wasn't particularly keen to be there for all of the meeting and was happy to be apart from uh you and Di Lambert during the meeting. Is that a broadly accurate
01:23:37 meeting. Is that a broadly accurate recollection? If she says that's that's what Yeah, that's fine. I accept that. Yeah. And she says that the visit was for just less than an hour. Would that also your right? Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:50 your right? Yeah. Yeah. As she recalls, there was an emphasis of what Bob Lambert imparted at the meeting which was the requirement for secrecy. Does that accord with your recollection?
01:24:02 Does that accord with your recollection? Uh yes. Well, yeah, I do remember that. Yeah. C can we have up on the screen um MPS document 052 7239
01:24:16 the document you were taken to a moment ago by Mr. bar.
01:24:24 And if we look at page three, well, sorry, page one first, just to locate you, um, if we could highlight the upper third of the document.
01:24:41 So, this seems to be a proposal for you and two other uh officers to be recruited for employment on the SDS.
01:24:52 recruited for employment on the SDS. Yes,
01:24:52 Yes, we don't see a date at the top, but the attached minute is dated the 11th of April.
01:25:05 From the substantive paragraph, you can see that uh the branch note, and we'll come to that in a moment, describes each candidate professionally
01:25:16 describes each candidate professionally and domestically.
01:25:20 So if we then turn on to page three of the document please
01:25:36 we see that uh all relevant inquiries
01:25:42 inquiries have been made. all relevant professional and domestic background inquiries.
01:25:51 And then moving to the fourth paragraph of that page and you were taken to this a moment ago by Mr. Bar
01:26:02 and we saw the five basic qualities essential to the undercover role and uh Mr. far uh emphasized and explored with you in particular those of integrity and
01:26:15 you in particular those of integrity and sound judgment. Uh I I I won't given his questions on that I won't dwell on that. Could we move on to page five
01:26:28 and uh if we so this is the part of the document which refers to you. You've confirmed with Mr. bar that the family situation described is accurate
01:26:42 described is accurate and you'll recall the the relevant paragraph. Yeah. Yeah. So, having looked at what seemed to be the relevant parts of uh that document
01:26:54 the relevant parts of uh that document referring to all relevant professional and domestic inquiries. As far as you know, is the home visit by Bob Lambert with or without DCI Edmonson the full
01:27:05 with or without DCI Edmonson the full extent of the domestic inquiries made? As far as I can remember, yes.
01:27:14 You have no knowledge of any further pre-eployment assessment of S or your family background beyond that single visit? No, I think that was the only time that uh that s was um around the
01:27:29 time that uh that s was um around the time when we were being interviewed was on that one occasion. There was never any other time that I can recall that that ever happened. Yeah. Thank you. Maybe a naive question, but did Bob
01:27:40 Maybe a naive question, but did Bob Lambert provide any warning to s of the risks of sexual relations uh being pursued in an undercover role?
01:27:52 uh being pursued in an undercover role? No.
01:27:58 reminding ourselves of what you said in your witness statement and confirmed in your oral evidence. You do remember having a discussion about sexual relationships before your deployment
01:28:10 relationships before your deployment and Andy Kohl's had told you that they were inevitable and eventually you will end up with no option
01:28:20 option or risk exposure.
01:28:24 Was that risk a concern that was raised by you with S? No.
01:28:34 No. Why not?
01:28:35 Why not? I think it's um when I was made aware of that and I think I've said in in a previous uh statement that I just didn't think that would ever I couldn't
01:28:46 think that would ever I couldn't conceive of that ever happening to me. Yes. So, so would that make it not all the more likely that you would raise it with S to say that you'd be warned about
01:28:57 with S to say that you'd be warned about this, but you didn't think it was an issue for you? No. No, not at all. I didn't wouldn't want to concern her with that.
01:29:06 So, there was a known risk of sexual relationships undercover, known by you, but thought by you to be inapplicable to your particular circumstances.
01:29:17 circumstances. And neither you nor anyone else informed us of those risks. Is that right? Correct.
01:29:24 Correct. In obtaining her agreement and positive support for you embarking on an undercover role, it's fair to say s was kept in deliberate ignorance of those
01:29:36 kept in deliberate ignorance of those risks, isn't it? Uh, as it transpired, yes, but of course this whole sex thing, I said it wasn't irrelevant. So it was irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, but yes. On the face
01:29:47 as I'm concerned, but yes. On the face of it, she wasn't made aware of that at all. I didn't discuss what I'd spoken to Andy Coohl's about with her at all. No. You say as it transpired, but I mean
01:29:59 You say as it transpired, but I mean that was the position at the time. At the time. Yes. Yeah.
01:30:05 So related to this, can we move to an issue of sexual health and consideration of S in that context? In your evidence yesterday, you denied having told Allison that you had had an
01:30:18 having told Allison that you had had an HIV test.
01:30:20 HIV test. You recall that? Yes. Yes.
01:30:23 Yes. Yes. And you denied that Allison had inquired about your HIV status or uh had a concern to ensure your sexual health. That's right. Yes.
01:30:35 That's right. Yes. And you accepted that in those days there were heightened concerns in particular from the threat of AIDS and HIV?
01:30:43 HIV? Yes.
01:30:46 Yes. Before you embarked on a sexual relationship with a new partner in your undercover role, did you consider the risk that may pose to s his sexual
01:30:57 risk that may pose to s his sexual health?
01:30:58 health? Yes, I did. And what consideration did you give as to that? uh the use of a condom and then later on of course when I when I got to
01:31:09 later on of course when I when I got to know Allison um I you know I I trusted and that wasn't an issue. So no I didn't beyond that that was as far as it went.
01:31:20 beyond that that was as far as it went. You say that Allison had been in a previous relationship. You knew that Allison had been in a previous relationship. Yes.
01:31:27 Yes. I'm not suggesting on behalf of S that you were wrong to trust Allison, but trust does not equate to elimination of risk, does it? Accepted. Yes.
01:31:38 Accepted. Yes. Even if the second partner is being entirely honest. Correct.
01:31:44 So, did you not give that consideration? It may have been a risk you were prepared to run having met and got to know Allison, but what about the health of S at home? No,
01:31:57 what about the health of S at home? No, that was not something I considered. No. Why not?
01:32:00 Why not? Uh I didn't. No. Why? Why not? For no reason. I just No, it wasn't a consideration. It was wrong obviously, but I should have considered it, but I
01:32:11 but I should have considered it, but I didn't.
01:32:14 didn't. Now, Mr. Bar has asked you and covered considerable ground about the knowledge of your colleagues and supervisors as to your relationship with Allison.
01:32:26 as to your relationship with Allison. Uhhuh.
01:32:26 Uhhuh. Um, and that's been what you say about that in your witness statement has been explored and expanded upon significantly in your oral evidence. Um, I I I think seeking to summarize it,
01:32:41 Um, I I I think seeking to summarize it, uh, there were a number of your colleagues and a number of your supervisors who were aware of your sexual relationship with Allison.
01:32:53 sexual relationship with Allison. Correct.
01:32:55 Correct. And
01:32:57 And to an extent I think your evidence is that it was a tacit understanding amongst some people and not expressly spoken about and it was explicitly known
01:33:08 spoken about and it was explicitly known by others. Is that a fair summary? Correct. Yeah.
01:33:15 So in that context, if we turn to the subject of Christmas parties, um
01:33:22 um can we turn up the document at UCPI 50
01:33:29 50 36037
01:33:38 and the second page, please? Now, this was an invitation that was uh put to s during the course of her evidence in questions from from Mr. Bar.
01:33:50 evidence in questions from from Mr. Bar. Uh and she was clear that she didn't in fact attend this particular Christmas party, but had attended uh other ones during your deployment.
01:34:01 during your deployment. Okay. And having read her witness uh statement, you'll recall that she uh remembers three in particular those Christmas parties.
01:34:12 Christmas parties. We see that they're headed from the 27 club. What What's the meaning of the 27 club?
01:34:17 club? I think it was um was it I can't remember. It refers to the uh the number of No, it's like an internal
01:34:30 No, it's like an internal I don't know. I can't I can't remember now. It's it's an it's a special branch uh
01:34:36 uh uh maybe people 27 years old of the SDS. I I can't actually remember what it stands for. No, but it's an an internal a particular SDS code or internal joke.
01:34:48 code or internal joke. Yeah. Uh not it's not a joke. It's a is it how old would the SDS have been back then? It may that may be I interrupt. The SDS was started in 1968. This is 27 years after
01:35:00 1968. This is 27 years after that's Yeah. Thank you, sir. Yes. Did it continue to be called the 27 Club for subsequent invitations? I wouldn't have thought so, but I I don't know that for sure.
01:35:11 don't know that for sure. Um I'll I'll I'll leave that. Okay. Um,
01:35:15 Okay. Um, as far as the other Christmas parties are concerned, S has given evidence of socializing with other undercover officers, your supervisors, the wives of
01:35:26 officers, your supervisors, the wives of both,
01:35:27 both, and being introduced to your colleagues. Correct. Yeah. And is it fair to say that these were occasions to acknowledge and appreciate at least in part the supportive role
01:35:39 at least in part the supportive role paid played by undercover officers, families, their wives, spouses, and the sacrifices they were making. Yes.
01:35:49 Yes. S has said in her evidence, it's no need to turn it up, but uh paragraph 38 of her statement that during the Christmas parties, she remembers frequently being
01:36:00 parties, she remembers frequently being asked about the children. Uh and she says that that makes it particularly upsetting and awful if any of them knew about your relationship. They did know, didn't they?
01:36:13 They did know, didn't they? On on this particular We know she wasn't there. Sorry, the sub not the 1995. Yes. thought some of them would have done that. Yeah.
01:36:19 Yeah. Yeah.
01:36:23 And you said to Mr. Bar that you didn't find these occasions awkward even in even in hindsight because you said it was a social event. That's right. Yes, it was.
01:36:34 That's right. Yes, it was. Do you recognize the hypocrisy in holding an event in appreciation of the support and sacrifices made by
01:36:45 of the support and sacrifices made by wives and partners whilst at the same time colluding in the betrayal of those wives in the undercover officers roles?
01:36:56 undercover officers roles? In hindsight, yes.
01:37:11 I won't Mr. Bar has covered and and I won't go through the identities of the officers who knew or um would have known. Um
01:37:24 known. Um I'm not going to dwell on the house move. Uh I think S has indicated her distress.
01:37:31 distress. Yeah.
01:37:31 Yeah. At that and you in your oral evidence yesterday said that it was massively traumatic. It was Yeah.
01:37:41 including a need for change of school. Oh yes. It was it was terrible. Yeah. Loss of her support network. Yeah. And the house that you moved to,
01:37:52 Yeah. And the house that you moved to, she um as indicated was in a decrepit state and needed a lot of renovation. It was pretty poor. Yeah. So she was isolated, taking prime responsibility for your young children.
01:38:04 responsibility for your young children. Yes.
01:38:05 Yes. In a new property in a rundown, decrepit state.
01:38:09 state. It wasn't run down, but it was in in poor repair, but it was habitable. So yes, that was the the fact of it. So with that by way of background to the topic of holidays
01:38:20 topic of holidays and what s knew or understood in relation to those you described in your oral evidence this morning uh a hol
01:38:31 your oral evidence this morning uh a hol family holiday in 1995 which you said was disastrous. Would that have been a holiday to Tenneref?
01:38:40 Tenneref? I'm
01:38:40 I'm sorry. Tunisia. Yes.
01:38:41 Yes. Tunisia. Yes. Um, S says that that disastrous family holiday to Tunisia was in 1997 and you're mistaken about it being in 1995.
01:38:55 you're mistaken about it being in 1995. No, it was 1995. In 1995,
01:39:02 do you recall you went with her to a Greek island just as a couple with your parents looking after the children?
01:39:13 Yeah. Yes, I do. I know. Yes, I had forgotten about that, but I don't know when in 1995 that was, but yes, I do remember that now. And that would have been the only
01:39:25 And that would have been the only holiday abroad that you had in 1995 and that Tunisia was in fact in 1997, two years later. No, I No, I think
01:39:38 No, I No, I think um Chunisia was a package trip and I'm I'm convinced it's 1995. We didn't go away. I'd never went away
01:39:49 We didn't go away. I'd never went away with her in 1997. I wasn't able to do that. 1995 was the last time that I was able to get away.
01:40:01 Um Allison has given detailed evidence of numerous holidays and breaks away that you went on together and um as I
01:40:12 you went on together and um as I understand your evidence from questions from Mr. Bar, you broadly accept that she's accurate in all those details. Yes. the dates, the venues, the
01:40:23 Yes. the dates, the venues, the destinations and you have explained that those trips were taken in your own time, not work time. They were taken as annual
01:40:35 not work time. They were taken as annual leave.
01:40:35 leave. Annual leave. Yeah.
01:40:38 Yeah. And you explained that it was using up your holiday allowance that would otherwise have been time. Well, it was using up your holiday allowance, but this was time that you could have spent
01:40:49 this was time that you could have spent with your own young family either at home or on holiday. On paper, yes, but it wasn't practicable for me to do that to absent myself from the SDS cover that I was under at the
01:41:02 the SDS cover that I was under at the time.
01:41:04 time. You never told S that you were using your holiday allowances for what was presented to her as work trips, did you? That was part of my wages as well as
01:41:15 That was part of my wages as well as her. It was a joint account and I took what I needed.
01:41:31 Sorry, just going back to the the Tunisia question and and the date of that. Um, could we turn up document MPS 0527792,
01:41:41 which I think may assist.
01:41:48 And if we go to page four of that document
01:41:54 and look at paragraph 4.3.
01:42:10 So we see the reference to the holiday in Tunisia. What we need to do now is anchor that to the date of this document.
01:42:17 document. which I think if we look at page one, that's not the cover page, sorry, it's page two
01:42:29 in the first paragraph
01:42:35 you see at 1.1.
01:42:40 Yes. Yeah. Do you think S is likely to be right and you mistaken in relation to timing of that trip? No, I think um that 1997
01:42:52 No, I think um that 1997 um and and the the summer of 1997 um the holiday the Tunisia um that was probably what I used as a cover when I went to um Israel.
01:43:05 cover when I went to um Israel. The family holiday that we took together to Mc Tunisia actually happened in 1995. Sorry. So if we go back then, so we've
01:43:18 Sorry. So if we go back then, so we've seen the reference to a trip with your wife and children on the returning on the 15th of May 1997.
01:43:28 1997. The significance of it is running in to Kurt. And then move on again to page four, paragraph 4.3.
01:43:49 Yes, I see. So there that is looking at a future trip. Yes.
01:43:58 And not the one that um you've just returned from.
01:44:06 Yeah, that's that's right.
01:44:16 So the the the point is that it's a holiday with your wife for a two week family holiday in Tunisia in a few weeks
01:44:28 family holiday in Tunisia in a few weeks time. And you say that that was a lie to your managers because what you were really doing was going to Israel. Correct.
01:44:36 Correct. And so this doesn't support Ess's recollection that the Tunisia family holiday was in 1997. No, I she's read that and and got it wrong, but it was definitely 1995. I I I
01:44:49 wrong, but it was definitely 1995. I I I don't think it's based on this document. Okay.
01:44:52 Okay. I understand your your answer.
01:44:59 In relation to funds, you said in answer to Mr. Bar that these were paid from your joint account.
01:45:10 were paid from your joint account. Uh, and
01:45:12 Uh, and my question is, how did the Mark Jenner joint account pay for holidays for Mark Cassidy?
01:45:23 pay for holidays for Mark Cassidy? Cash. It was cash. So, I'd withdraw cash, then put it into my cover account
01:45:38 and the flights, everything. You just withdrew cash from the family joint account. Yes. I mean, and but that wasn't just exclusively for um these holidays. It
01:45:50 exclusively for um these holidays. It was to top up my SDS uh running account. That was a routine thing. I was always having to top it up. You said in your evidence that s didn't know that you were funding your overseas
01:46:03 know that you were funding your overseas trips from the joint account. Yes, that's right. Uh and I can indicate you you are correct uh in that. Was that another deceit perpetrated on her?
01:46:16 deceit perpetrated on her? Yes.
01:46:20 You described in your oral evidence your trips with Allison as being nice holidays and you were having a really enjoyable time together.
01:46:32 From the end of 1997, S was living in a shabby decrepit house that needed renovating in an entirely new area and had been removed as we've heard from her
01:46:43 had been removed as we've heard from her network of friends and social support looking after your children. In relation to Ess's own holidays, whilst you were enjoying those with
01:46:54 whilst you were enjoying those with Allison, do you recall that she was generally holidaying with the children without you in places in the UK? For example, staying with a friend in Wales.
01:47:07 example, staying with a friend in Wales. Yes.
01:47:08 Yes. Staying in a caravan in North Cornwall. Yes.
01:47:13 Yes. Spending the millennium staying with friends in southeast London. Yes.
01:47:19 Yes. All without you, with you away with Allison.
01:47:23 Allison. Yes.
01:47:27 Christmas 1998, moving to New Year 1999, she went with the children to Australia on a holiday. You recall that?
01:47:39 on a holiday. You recall that? Yes, I do. Again, without you? That's right. Yeah. And was that because you had used up all your leave on holidays with Allison?
01:47:52 your leave on holidays with Allison? Well, no. I had no intention at that stage. I couldn't get away on a holiday abroad and she was going to go and visit family.
01:48:00 family. Why not?
01:48:01 Why not? Because I couldn't abstract myself from uh the SDS, not just the Allison thing, but the whole work. It was impossible for me to justify being away for 3 weeks
01:48:12 for me to justify being away for 3 weeks or whatever it was. when she returned from Australia, she recalls that you were supposed to have varnished the floor of the rundown new house with multiple coats of varnish. Do
01:48:23 house with multiple coats of varnish. Do you recall that? Yeah, and I did. And that you'd only done one coat, which was still wet when she got back. Well, I don't recall that. No. As far as I was concerned, I did a lot of work on that house while they were away.
01:48:37 And we won't go over it again, but you've been through holidays, family occasions, Christmases, away from your own family on the false pretext of work. That's right.
01:48:50 That's right. You described that this morning as a dilemma, but that you had no alternative because it was part and parcel of your role.
01:48:57 role. Correct.
01:48:59 Correct. I'd suggest you that is simply untrue. You had an honorable alternative, but you chose not to take it. Yes, an honorable alternative such as it was. But I was embedded in an undercover
01:49:11 But I was embedded in an undercover unit, a long-term operation, and I wasn't going to jeopardize that. She understood that. Yes, it was very difficult for her. I don't underestimate that at all. But as far as I was
01:49:22 that at all. But as far as I was concerned, I had to stick to that script that I was doing. Um, and it was difficult. Yeah, of course it was. And I appreciate she must have found it extremely difficult. I know that. Um,
01:49:33 extremely difficult. I know that. Um, there's nothing better, more than I would have wanted to spend time with my family, young children at Christmas. Of course I would. It just wasn't feasible. Final topic, um, day-to-day involvement
01:49:47 Final topic, um, day-to-day involvement with your own family. Uh, you said in your witness statement that you considered yourself to be on duty and in your cover identity pretty much all the time,
01:49:58 much all the time, uh, 90% of the time. Um, Allison, you'll recall, has described your routine, and I don't think you dispute this as a routine, that you set off for work every day at
01:50:10 that you set off for work every day at around 6:30 a.m. and would return to her flat at around 5:30 p.m. Yes. Correct. So, that was your weekday routine.
01:50:21 So, that was your weekday routine. Yes.
01:50:23 Yes. And that's was also what is reflected in a file note that Mr. bar took you to made by Bob Lambert on the 28th of January 1997. We don't need to turn it
01:50:35 January 1997. We don't need to turn it up again. You were you were shown to that and you recall that. Yeah.
01:50:43 So S is evidence contrary to your suggestion is that during your time with the SDS you were generally around a lot
01:50:54 the SDS you were generally around a lot during the day. Yes, I was. at home with her and the children. Yes.
01:51:03 Yes. She says it actually felt like you were spending some good time together over that period. That you would take the children to and from nursery, take them swimming or to
01:51:16 from nursery, take them swimming or to medical appointments. Correct. Is that all correct? Yes.
01:51:20 Yes. And that you got into a pattern of you being away at night and going away at weekends? She says it was a bit of an inside out life, but you were definitely present.
01:51:30 present. Yes.
01:51:33 So, as she says, you were spending a good chunk of time at home during the day on at least 5 days a week, although you had your meetings on Mondays and
01:51:44 you had your meetings on Mondays and Thursdays. Correct.
01:51:47 Correct. and that you were generally there from the early morning until around 5 or 6:00 p.m. sometimes later in the evening. Correct.
01:51:59 She says when he was coming home and when he was at home I thought it was him as him. That's the impression you were
01:52:10 impression you were Yes, of course. Yeah. aiming to create.
01:52:15 So when you finished your deployment, you didn't need to reintegrate with your family. From Ess's point of view, there were no difficulties about your return at the end of your deployment.
01:52:26 at the end of your deployment. Well, from her point of view, yes, of course, I I did have to uh not physically integrate in terms of time, but it was the psychological effects of integrating back full-time from a
01:52:37 integrating back full-time from a full-time deployment on SDS. But you'd been involved with the family as she describes and you agree with the swimming trips, taking children to nursery trips, um doing domestic things
01:52:50 nursery trips, um doing domestic things with the family during the days. That's right. So, it wasn't a reintegration. I appreciate it was an adjustment for you. Well, I think No, I think it was more than just an adjustment. I mean, the
01:53:01 than just an adjustment. I mean, the children were the children were young. I'm not around at weekends, you know. Yes, I was in there, you know, during the week, but that doesn't cover all of the time that I could have spent with them elsewhere. Um, you know, I was an
01:53:13 them elsewhere. Um, you know, I was an absent father pretty much. I was aware of that. I had a lot of ground to try and make up. Uh, so yes, from an I think it was more than just a I was already acquainted with them. Of course I was.
01:53:24 acquainted with them. Of course I was. But this was a proper reintegration and establishing myself as a father again, which from their perspective, they were young enough not to really appreciate my absences, I I assume, but
01:53:37 appreciate my absences, I I assume, but I had to I was now around them full-time, and that was a very difficult period of adjustment. Yeah. So her comment is that while the realities of your deployment did impact
01:53:50 realities of your deployment did impact on your family life, the biggest impact on them came from the way you behaved while undercover and the press attention that followed.
01:54:01 that followed. You agree that's a fair comment with hindsight. Do you mean or the pressure tension only came much later? I mean, were we still talking about my my general reintegration or the
01:54:14 about my my general reintegration or the early my initial reintegration? The point that she's making is that your deployment had an impact, a significant impact on family life, but the massive
01:54:27 impact on family life, but the massive impact came from the way that you had behaved when it emerged. Yes. Yeah. And the press attention which followed. Of course. Yeah. Of course, I accept that. Yeah.
01:54:41 that. Yeah. It's fair to say, isn't it, that throughout your career in the police, including your undercover deployment, S was unfailingly loyal and supportive,
01:54:52 was unfailingly loyal and supportive, making huge sacrifices for you to pursue your career ambitions and what she believed was serving the wider public good.
01:55:00 good. Absolutely right. Yeah. How do you feel you repaid that loyalty? Well, yeah. But again with hindsight, yes, she paid a far heavier price than I did. I accept that. The reason that, you
01:55:14 did. I accept that. The reason that, you know, we discussed this job when before I joined, we discussed it together. Um, I knew it was going to be difficult. Obviously, not to the extent that it proved to be, but it was always because
01:55:25 proved to be, but it was always because it would be a we'd have a better future. I thought financially we'd be secure and it would be a better future. And that's that's what I'd always hoped for. Obviously, that didn't happen. and and
01:55:37 Obviously, that didn't happen. and and she suffered a great deal for it. It wasn't about the money. Um I think it was about the the family life and the time that obviously that we'd missed and then suddenly this enormous bombshell of
01:55:50 then suddenly this enormous bombshell of uh publicity and and all the accompanying uh events thereafter. You've accepted in your oral evidence that your behavior constituted a gross
01:56:04 that your behavior constituted a gross betrayal. I think with your words of S. Yes.
01:56:09 Yes. You have never given S any private or personal apology for your conduct in the SDS, have you? I one of the problems that when the
01:56:20 I one of the problems that when the marriage broke down was that we didn't have any communication. I've actually spoken to her probably 13 years. I could have spoken to her earlier on. I
01:56:32 I could have spoken to her earlier on. I didn't. And this was before all the publicity. We didn't have that conversation. You know, I think uh Mr. Bark will be a moral cowardice and I I accept that. You know, I couldn't face
01:56:43 accept that. You know, I couldn't face that. And I think um on the back of that, yeah, it it the worst of it has happened and but I've never had an opportunity to speak to her about it
01:56:54 opportunity to speak to her about it since then or send any other communication. She's completely ignored everything. She doesn't want to have anything to do with me whatsoever. Anything that uh the contact that she wants to make with me
01:57:07 contact that she wants to make with me is usually via the children. So, no private or personal apology to her.
01:57:14 her. You've not taken the opportunity in your lengthy witness statement to take any personal responsibility for the way that you have treated her, let alone an apology there, have you?
01:57:25 apology there, have you? I haven't. I'd rather speak to her myself on that matter, not to make it a matter of public record. No. So, there's nothing you would now wish to say in relation to your conduct and
01:57:37 to say in relation to your conduct and its impact on s by way of an apology. I'm not going to apologize uh now through this means, but as I said with Allison, I'm quite happy to apologize with her face to face or she'd rather
01:57:50 with her face to face or she'd rather write or whatever. Of course, I would do that, but I'm not prepared to make it in a in a public arena. No. So, thank you. Those are my questions and I'm very grateful to the inquiry for being afforded the privilege of asking
01:58:02 being afforded the privilege of asking and I know Essen as well. Thank you, Mr. K. Um, I apologize on behalf of the inquiry if the misunderstanding which uh led to the
01:58:13 the misunderstanding which uh led to the debate which preceded your helpful email uh uh was the fault of my fault or the staff of the inquiry or or in any way uh
01:58:24 staff of the inquiry or or in any way uh to do with the inquiry but it's all resolved.
01:58:26 resolved. Not at all. It has been resolved and I'm grateful.
01:58:29 grateful. So before we break for the rule 10 process and there will need break for that of
01:58:34 that of course
01:58:35 course there is one factual matter arising from my learned friends uh questioning that I I think it might assist if I put yes I think the um transcriber should know that there will be a break of at
01:58:47 know that there will be a break of at least 15 minutes at least
01:58:49 at least yes
01:58:50 yes and it is this is a very short point yes
01:58:53 yes uh my friend put a a document to you the evidence about Tunisia. Yes.
01:59:01 Yes. According to the chronology that we have and the the document you were shown dated from May of 1997, the trip to Israel was between the 3rd
01:59:13 the trip to Israel was between the 3rd and the 18th of August. There was though a trip to Apple Cross, Scotland
01:59:22 Scotland over the break over May, the end of May into June of 1997. Does does my reminding you of those facts affect your evidence about Tunisia
01:59:35 facts affect your evidence about Tunisia in 1997 at all? Uh yeah, I certainly remember the trip to Appler Cross, but I yeah, I I I take what you say that was the date of it, but I the whole Tunisia
01:59:46 the date of it, but I the whole Tunisia thing obviously that was a ruse by me, but I don't know what particular holiday referred to. So I don't know the answer. Thank you. Right. Well, Rick, for as I say at least
01:59:59 Right. Well, Rick, for as I say at least 15 minutes, uh the rule 10 process may take a little longer. If it does, so be it.
02:43:19 Mr. Bar, thank you for your patience, sir, which I hope will have enabled me to distill the outstanding questions um to everyone's advantage.
02:43:30 to everyone's advantage. First of all, Mr. Jenna, the Trevor Monavville committee, I asked you some questions
02:43:36 questions about the occasion right at the start of your deployment uh when you attended an event. Our understanding now is that the march
02:43:48 Our understanding now is that the march in question ran from the murder site to Stoke Newington Police Station to the Halvi Center. Might that be
02:43:59 to the Halvi Center. Might that be right?
02:43:59 right? Yes.
02:44:01 Yes. And do you recall being introduced to John Burke Monavville on that occasion?
02:44:08 occasion? No.
02:44:10 No. Are you saying you don't remember or it didn't?
02:44:12 didn't? I do remember and I I wasn't. No. Can I ask uh now there's a difference between your evidence yesterday about
02:44:24 between your evidence yesterday about whether or not you gained whether you got personal benefit from the sexual relationship with Allison. Uh yesterday you said no personal benefits. Today
02:44:35 you said no personal benefits. Today many personal benefits. Just to be crystal clear, which is it? personal benefits in terms of sexual activity or not just sexual activity but benefiting
02:44:47 not just sexual activity but benefiting generally from the relationship including sex. Um,
02:44:53 Um, no tangible uh benefits. No, but but food and accommodation and yeah, only what I paid for. Yeah, I did contribute. I wasn't completely relying on her. I paid her food and some money
02:45:05 on her. I paid her food and some money for well I paid her money for food as well as the general uh rental uh thing but of course I had access to a telephone and that that sort of thing
02:45:16 telephone and that that sort of thing and a loving relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. So which is it person no personal benefits or personal benefits? Well personal under thees of the SDS. Yes.
02:45:29 Yes. Uh,
02:45:31 Uh, Israel, you have to come back early because you've been ill. You come back about a week early. I something like that. Yes. I can't remember.
02:45:39 remember. What do you do with that extra week? Where where are you during that week? I spent that in uh Allison's
02:45:50 Allison's address.
02:45:51 address. Allison's recollection was that you weren't there. Are you sure you unless I'd gone back and unless I said I'd gone back to work, in which case I wouldn't be there. But where where would you be?
02:46:04 But where where would you be? Well, if it was suggesting I wasn't there overnight. Can you recall where you were in that week?
02:46:11 week? No. No.
02:46:15 No. No. Uh
02:46:17 Uh today you've told us um about how Detective Inspector Lambert came to know that you were going to co-habit with Allison and were in a sexual
02:46:28 Allison and were in a sexual relationship with her. Uh you did not divulge that fact in your witness statement to the inquiry. On the contrary, you said that he didn't know.
02:46:39 contrary, you said that he didn't know. Why were you trying to protect Bob Lambert? wasn't trying to protect him but it the thing and it's all this inferences you know I was uh he was made aware then I said that look to the uh
02:46:53 aware then I said that look to the uh officers I I name there this is what is I am going to cohabiting or living with uh and he said what he said about you be careful about the amount of time that
02:47:05 careful about the amount of time that you're you going to have to devote to this so it was always an inference but I think given And yeah, he knew. I assumed that he knew that when you're living
02:47:18 that he knew that when you're living with one of your uh people then yes, that is a sexual uh so why why weren't you fully forthcoming in your witness state?
02:47:26 state? I don't know.
02:47:32 You gave some evidence to the effect that you knew some day that Allison would think the worst of you.
02:47:44 would think the worst of you. A difficulty with that answer is that presumably at the time you thought Allison would never find out uh that who I was. Yes. But the thing is that I if I disappear
02:47:58 But the thing is that I if I disappear um Yes. So regardless of who who I happen to be, the fact I wasn't there and I'd left her un under such quick sudden circumstances, then yes, of course, she's going to be very upset by
02:48:09 course, she's going to be very upset by that.
02:48:11 that. Uh the question of depression. Mhm.
02:48:15 Mhm. and your mental state uh when you were executing your exfiltration strategy and your the state of mind you were presenting
02:48:27 of mind you were presenting to Allison. How much of that was genuine and how much of it was false? I I think at the time it was probably
02:48:38 I I think at the time it was probably 6040 genuine. Uh, I mean, depression I know is is actual clinical illness, but it was Yeah, I was pretty um torn up at
02:48:49 it was Yeah, I was pretty um torn up at the time,
02:48:51 the time, but you were still putting a good deal of it on.
02:48:54 of it on. Yes, obviously. Yes, it was. It was to that advantage, but I was I was, you know, obviously pretty upset by it all as well
02:49:00 as well because you were deliberately destroying the relationship. Yes.
02:49:05 Yes. I'm going to read now um a paragraph from the Metropolitan Police's opening statement from an earlier phase in the inquiry.
02:49:15 inquiry. I'm going to ask you whether this apology is one that you would align yourself with. Okay. The MPS accepts that these sexual relationships occurred and that further
02:49:28 relationships occurred and that further relationships will be examined during the inquiry's later investigations of T2, T3, and T4. Now the material part. Such conduct was a gross violation of the women's privacy
02:49:40 a gross violation of the women's privacy and human rights. It was abusive, deceitful, manipulative, and wrong. The MPS apologizes again unreservedly to the women whose lives have been and continue
02:49:52 women whose lives have been and continue to be affected. The MPS also apologizes to the wives, partners, and families who have also been harmed by the misconduct of the UCOs and the failure by the SDS
02:50:05 of the UCOs and the failure by the SDS managers and senior MPSB management to prevent that misconduct. And I concur with that. Um,
02:50:17 Um, does the acronym C R A P meaning clarity, readability, accuracy, and presentation,
02:50:31 accuracy, and presentation, um,
02:50:32 um, ring any bells? No. Were you taught that that was how you should report? No, I've never heard that acronym before.
02:50:40 before. Can I ask you some further questions now about the uh conversation you had with John Dyn before you deployed?
02:50:51 John Dyn before you deployed? Appreciate that I did go over this with you, but I want to see if we can get any further.
02:50:55 further. Okay.
02:50:56 Okay. Can you help us with John Dyn's frame of mind as it appeared to you in that conversation? Um,
02:51:06 Um, so we met in a pub. He was Yeah, he was I would describe him as being fairly withdrawn, but that was I don't know whether that was because I'd never met him before and
02:51:18 was because I'd never met him before and he you know he's been asked to to meet me. So yeah, I' I'd say withdrawn, but that was all. I didn't notice anything outside of that.
02:51:30 What exactly did he say to you? I can't remember the exact thing, but he was he he did ask me what area I was being um I was looking to be put in and
02:51:43 being um I was looking to be put in and that time I didn't know. Um and he was speculating and and he said, you know, I think you're he described me as being hardfaced. Um and so he said, "Well, that's that
02:51:55 Um and so he said, "Well, that's that would be limiting to where they'd want to put you." um you know I thought too a hardf face in terms of being quite stern and uh I don't know physical looking in
02:52:06 and uh I don't know physical looking in his opinion um so that was that really it was it was it was on that sort of level there's no sort of in-depth discussion uh I let him speak it was it
02:52:17 discussion uh I let him speak it was it really for him to you know divulge anything he wanted to me about you know getting involved in the SDS but it was on that level.
02:52:28 Did anybody give you any advice about feigning depression as part of your exit strategy?
02:52:36 strategy? No.
02:52:36 No. Was it suggested to you that that was a tried and tested way of exfiltrating? No, it wasn't. And but I did there is a I think there's mention of it. I don't know if an Andy Kohl's thing you uh
02:52:49 know if an Andy Kohl's thing you uh mentioned sort of was grumpy or something like that was some sort of uh reference to that. I can't remember but I don't remember anybody else telling me about it or being that would be a a
02:53:01 about it or being that would be a a useful way of uh exfiltrating but you know feigning disinterest I think was one of the other things but that's to me that sounded very weak had to be something much more that because these people are committed people you
02:53:13 these people are committed people you don't just get bored and wander off forever.
02:53:17 forever. I asked you uh when we were going through the letters that you wrote to Allison as part of your exfiltration strategy whether you'd had any advice or guidance and I was showing you a par a
02:53:30 guidance and I was showing you a par a line at the time about you saying that you regretted the things you did and and the things that you hadn't done that that is a line that is remarkably similar uh to contents of other similar
02:53:45 similar uh to contents of other similar exfiltration letters that we've seen. Are you sure you weren't given any guidance as to how to write those? Absolutely. Sure.
02:53:56 Absolutely. Sure. Finally, I asked you uh when we were exploring accommodation um a number of questions and at one point you said to me that you were that Mark Metaf had invited you to live with
02:54:10 Mark Metaf had invited you to live with him which was an invitation you'd declined. Can we just be clear exactly why you decline an invitation to live
02:54:21 why you decline an invitation to live with Mark Metaf, but you accept an invitation to live with Allison? I think the invitation with Metaf wasn't live with him. He could stay with him as
02:54:32 live with him. He could stay with him as in he had spare room. I've been round to his place before, but it wasn't a long-term arrangement. And I think that was on the back of the the state of the the place that I was staying in at the time. I mean, if he wanted to make
02:54:44 time. I mean, if he wanted to make himself useful, but there was no indication that that was and it certainly wouldn't have been characteristic of him to offer me long-term accommodation at his place. It was somewhere to stay. No more than that.
02:54:55 that. But why didn't you accept that offer? Because I didn't need a short-term place to stay.
02:55:00 to stay. Was the fact that he was a named target anything to do with it? Well, possibly. Yes. I mean, very close to him, but I I didn't I didn't need a short-term stay. I had a short-term stay in that flat. And was the contrast
02:55:13 in that flat. And was the contrast between staying with Mark McAff and staying in a loving sexual relationship uh with Allison a completely different proposition. Completely different proposition.
02:55:24 Completely different proposition. Far more attractive to you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Food, sex, and shelter. That's it. Those are all my questions.
02:55:35 Those are all my questions. So, I've got no re-examination. There was only one factual matter. I've spoke to Mr. Mullik about it when he asked Mr. Jenner about whether he'd watched the audio video recording on YouTube or and
02:55:48 audio video recording on YouTube or and then corrected himself maybe just the audio recording. In fact, neither um have been made publicly available. Um and of course, M said he couldn't find it when he looked on YouTube. Um that's
02:56:01 it when he looked on YouTube. Um that's all.
02:56:01 all. Thank you for that. Um that now concludes your oral evidence. Um, I'm aware despite everything that it is
02:56:13 I'm aware despite everything that it is a strain for you to have to give public evidence about these matters. I appreciate your frankness today in what you have said and uh I am greatly
02:56:25 you have said and uh I am greatly assisted by your answers. Thank you. Thank you, sir. We will now um adjourn until next year. I think until the 2nd of February. I
02:56:38 I think until the 2nd of February. I hope I've got my date right. Uh I think you have, sir. Good.
02:56:44 Good. Uh may everybody who has attended uh have an enjoyable Christmas and New Year.