Powerful testimony from Sukdev Reel and daughter Tish about their son/brother Ricky's death in 1997 and the systematic police failures and racism they experienced. Devastating revelations about police surveillance of their justice campaign, false assurances given in 2014 about 'collateral intrusion', and evidence that intelligence was shared to the highest levels including the Commissioner. HN81 David Hagen drove Mrs Reel home alone - targeted not collateral surveillance.
00:40:54 Done.
00:41:02 One moment, please. Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings are going to be uh livereamed after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to say what they have heard in the hearing room, but only uh after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event
00:41:13 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. Uh those uh devices may not be used for recording or photography. We are likely to have uh slightly more frequent and slightly longer breaks uh because of Mrs. Real's
00:41:32 longer breaks uh because of Mrs. Real's um uh possible difficulties. Let us see. Thanks.
00:41:36 Thanks. Right. If you could repeat after me, please. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give
00:41:48 that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth. The whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nothing but the truth. Thank you. Please take a seat.
00:42:01 Thank you. Please take a seat. Please sit down, Mr. And um if at any stage you want a break, just say so. and I will rise immediately. Thank you, sir. Thank you. I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm
00:42:12 declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give should be the truth should be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing and nothing but the truth. Thank you.
00:42:25 Yes. Thank you chair. Good morning Mrs. W. My name is Nasmine Immacus and I'll be asking you questions on behalf of the inquiry. Firstly, thank you very much for
00:42:40 Firstly, thank you very much for attending today and assisting inquiry with your evidence. It is much appreciated. Um, I will be asking you a number of questions. My questions are intended to be short and simple. But if you have any difficulty with my questions, I can rephrase them or repeat
00:42:56 questions, I can rephrase them or repeat them for you. Please let me know. And as the chair has indicated, if at any time you require a break, please let me know. I'm going to first deal with your statements. So, could you please give your full name?
00:43:07 your full name? Suk Deabriel. And you have provided three statements to the inquiry. Yes.
00:43:17 Yes. The first one consists of three pages and it's dated the 30th of May 2024. Yeah. And you can confirm on the third page you have signed it and and it's stated.
00:43:35 Yes, I have. Your second witness statement is um it has 76 pages. Yes.
00:43:42 Yes. It's dated the 18th of June 2025. Yes. And you can confirm that on the last page you have signed and it's stated 18th of June 2025.
00:43:57 And third statement consists of two pages
00:44:01 pages and it's dated the 24th of November 2025.
00:44:03 2025. And again um you can confirm on the second page you've signed it and it's stated. Yes, I did.
00:44:16 stated. Yes, I did. And you've had an opportunity to read all three statements? Yes, I did. And confirm you can confirm that what's in the statements the content is true to your belief? Yes, I do. Speaker,
00:44:30 Yes, I do. Speaker, are you happy for them to be taken as evidence at this inquiry? Yes, I do. Sir, may I ask that all three statements be read into evidence? Certainly. If I may now turn to your daughter Tish who is here to support you in your evidence.
00:44:45 evidence. U Miss you've also provided one statement to inquiry. Uh it consists of 62 pages correct. Um on the last page you can confirm that is your signature.
00:44:59 your signature. Yes. And before if I ask you that the statement is um all true, do you you do have one correction to make on the last page?
00:45:10 page? I do. It says 27th June 2026 when it should read 27th of June 2025. It's a typo.
00:45:19 Say for that one amendment, have you had an opportunity to read your statement? I have.
00:45:24 I have. And you accept to the best of your knowledge um that is true? I do.
00:45:29 I do. So once more, can Miss Tish's statement be read into evidence? Uh Mrs. Will, I'm I'm now going to focus on you.
00:45:40 on you. Just a signpost on um today's evidence. The topics I will be covering will include firstly about your son Wiki and
00:45:53 include firstly about your son Wiki and your family, then Ricky's disappearance. I will then move on to the multiple investigations into his death. Then the justice for Ricky will campaign which you set up. I'll move on to other campaigns and
00:46:04 I'll move on to other campaigns and families associated with and then the last two topics is about the undercover police surveillance
00:46:15 police surveillance and specific events and the impact it's had on you and your family.
00:46:21 your statements that you provided does address your experience of your loss of Ricky. Um your ongoing fight for justice and the truth and seek accountability for the failed multiple police
00:46:37 for the failed multiple police investigations into his death. So on that background, I want to first um discuss Ricky and your family. Could UCPI 38821 be put on screen? um chaired at at IA2.
00:46:57 Mrs. V, this is one of your exhibits from your first statement. It's um chapter one of your book. If we can turn to page 23 and zoom into the photo,
00:47:20 Mrs. Will, this is a a photo of of of Ricky.
00:47:25 Ricky. It's said that um Ricky was born on the 11th of July, 1977. Yes.
00:47:32 Yes. And how old is he in this photo? He was 20 at the time.
00:47:43 He was 20 at the time. If I can put there's a um same document page 14 um another photo if that can be put next to this photo of of Ricky
00:47:53 was coming back.
00:48:00 Could we just pause for a moment? I think my mom might need to put her hearing aid in. I think she's having difficulty hearing. Of course. Thank you. Sorry.
00:48:06 Sorry. No, no, please don't worry.
00:48:57 It's fine. Thank you. Mrs. Will, can you hear me properly now? Yeah, but you still need to speak a bit louder because I don't think it's working very well. Very well. Um, so I've put we've put up a second photograph. Um, and is that of
00:49:09 Um, and is that of Ricky and his siblings? Yeah, that's uh
00:49:13 that's Ricky.
00:49:22 My daughter. Yeah.
00:49:25 That was the cheeky green he always had.
00:49:33 May I continue? Yeah, please do. Yeah, thank you.
00:49:44 It's right to say that Ricky was um the second oldest out of four children. Yes.
00:49:48 Yes. Could you tell us what Ricky was like as a son?
00:49:56 a son any mother would be proud of. Uh
00:49:58 Uh he was
00:50:05 he was he did well at school. He went to a local school did really well there and all his teachers have written reports admired him that when the children used to go out in the
00:50:19 children used to go out in the playground he used to stay behind and help other children who needed help. And the same thing happened in the secondary school. He was mad about computers. In fact, he taught me how to use a computer.
00:50:30 computer. And when I couldn't use it properly, he used to say, "Mom, please concentrate. Don't think about cooking. Don't think about this. Concentrate on using a computer." And I remember one day
00:50:47 And I remember one day I was um he uh passed a driving test before his older sister. So he was always showing off and I became ill and he took me to the hospital
00:50:53 hospital and uh
00:50:59 and uh he had his exams the next day and I told him to leave me at the hospital and go
00:51:10 him to leave me at the hospital and go home to study and he said to me no mom I can always take the exams the next year but I won't get another mom like you he was always helping his sisters because he had a car going to libraries help me with shopping, help his dad. He was like, it wasn't a son and father
00:51:25 He was like, it wasn't a son and father relationship. It was more like friends. Um, he did really well at school and then he went to uni. He was in uh Lafra University for two weeks. He didn't like to be away from home. Then he
00:51:47 to be away from home. Then he transferred to Brunal where he did two will study for two years and he did really well there. Then he was uh working as part of his degree um at a London uh firm and his employer in there say that he was really good didn't take any time off. In fact when he died
00:52:02 off. In fact when he died the employer found his back where he was doing far more than he was supposed to do. And uh I had
00:52:18 And uh I had people coming to me like one of the lady down the road because Ricky used to go out running every morning and she used to and she told me your son when I she worked nights she said I used to get off the bus and Ricky if he ever saw me
00:52:31 the bus and Ricky if he ever saw me running he would come to me and say auntie give me your bags I'll walk you home.
00:52:38 home. And my next door neighbor told me that he helped him make the speakers for the carnival and carried them. And uh
00:52:50 And uh people
00:53:01 and he in a school he took part in various dramas and he did one where he says
00:53:12 and he did one where he says responsibility in and out of the house. Uh he was a responsible child I could rely on. But he had a cheeky smile that attracted everyone. And he used to the girls both my girls
00:53:27 And he used to the girls both my girls used to always discuss have discussions about programs or about fashion and about other things. And he used to stand in the corridor listen to them and
00:53:38 in the corridor listen to them and slowly crawl into their rooms. and that that's where they would be discussing and you could leave them for hours. Everybody have their own opinions. So he was very social but at the same time he was very shy. He wasn't the sort of
00:53:53 was very shy. He wasn't the sort of person who was going out every time. Um the one day he did come out and I encouraged him to go out. I was pleased that he was
00:54:06 go out. I was pleased that he was finally going out. is the day he never came back. And I carry this guilt with me that I didn't stop him from going out that night.
00:54:19 that night. And that guilt stays with me all throughout life. We
00:54:31 do you want to say anything? I can talk about Ricky all day long, but I think I'll stop here. Uh Mrs. as well as you've mentioned the night he disappeared. Um I would like now to move on to that night
00:54:46 now to move on to that night and I understand it's a difficult topic. So if any again anytime you need a pause, please let me know.
00:54:57 Before Wikin went missing, is it fair to say that you didn't have any previous dealings with the police? Um I didn't have any previous dealings with the police but I worked as a senior homeless person's officer at local authority
00:55:15 authority and uh yes I was helping my clients who were being faced with homelessness, domestic violence, other kind of
00:55:27 domestic violence, other kind of violence and they were contacts just by the phone you know this and this has happened or that was it but no real involvement in the police force and um I thought on that day as well that they were there to support me or to help me.
00:55:41 to support me or to help me. The documents can be removed from the screen. Thank you. Um Ricky went missing on the 14th of October 1997 and it's it's right to say at the time he was 20 years old. Yes.
00:55:50 Yes. And
00:55:54 And you and your family were living in West London.
00:55:55 London. Yes.
00:55:58 Yes. And as you mentioned, Ricky was a student at Brunell University and it's right to say that during the period he
00:56:10 right to say that during the period he was undergoing a a work placement for a year at Openmind Design, which he said was in London.
00:56:18 If I can go to the background of the evening.
00:56:23 evening. So that evening, Ricky had gone out with three of his Asian friends. Um, and the four of them went to Kingston upon Tames. Is that correct? Yes.
00:56:38 Yes. Um, they intended to go to a nightclub called Options, which was holding a Diwali night gig. And Ricky had told you that he would be home by 1:00 a.m. which he also told his friends that he had told you that as well.
00:56:50 well. But as you say that Ricky didn't return home that night and you spent the whole night waiting on the stairs for him.
00:57:04 The next morning on the 15th of October 1997,
00:57:08 1997, you contacted West Drayton Police Station
00:57:14 Station and you were told that because Ricky was over the age of 18, you would have to wait 24 hours as that's was the that's their police missing person's policy.
00:57:29 In your witness statement, um, the second witness statement at paragraph 30 to 42, you set out the efforts you, your family, and Ricky's friends made to get the police to look into
00:57:43 made to get the police to look into Rick's disappearance. Um, on the 15th of October,
00:57:49 and it's right to say that throughout the day, you were trying to get help from the police and you managed to convince them to speak to one of Rick's friends. It was police D who spoke to Rick's friend. And again,
00:58:03 who spoke to Rick's friend. And again, you explained this at paragraph 34 and 35 of of the statement
00:58:12 that friend had told the police that when they were walking into the town center after they had parked the car in downhill road, two white men started shouting racial abuse at Ricky and his friends.
00:58:25 abuse at Ricky and his friends. It turned into an altercation where the white men attacked them and punches were thrown at them.
00:58:36 thrown at them. It was at this point that Ricky and his friends then ran away but in different directions to get away from the attack. And it's right to say that was the last time Ricky's friends saw him.
00:58:55 During the day, you speaking to both West Raiden Police Station and Kingston Police Station.
00:59:04 Is it fair to say that you had concerns that the police were not doing enough to investigate Ricky's disappearance? Yes. Um, if I'd like to go back.
00:59:18 Yes. Um, if I'd like to go back. Yeah. Uh the day Ricky went missing, like you said, I spent all night sitting on the stairs and I kept on ringing the hospitals, local hospitals to see if because they were in a car, I thought maybe they had a car accident. But when I contacted the police,
00:59:30 But when I contacted the police, I was told um that um they won't they won't take my statement and they won't come and see me. Um when I f when I phoned them the second time they said they had already
00:59:45 second time they said they had already sent a police officer to my house that I had refused to open the door but I was sitting near the door and I did not see any police officer come to my house. Few minutes later the police officer did
01:00:01 minutes later the police officer did come and he was told he he told me that I was given the wrong address. So at that time I did not know what was happening with my son and his friends. So I asked we managed to trace one of Ricky's friends who was not with him that night.
01:00:21 that night. So the police officer spoke I gave that number Ricky's friends number to the police officer who spoke to Ricky's friends and then it wasn't Ricky's friends it was a police officer who told me that Ricky and his friends were racially attacked. So the racial attack did not come from
01:00:36 So the racial attack did not come from Ricky's friends in the first instance. It came from a police officer. So he said when you know Ricky and his friends were racially attacked and I said to him I am worried because the three friends are back at home
01:00:49 are back at home and my son is missing. So it's common sense if four people are attacked three are back at home one's missing. So that
01:01:00 are back at home one's missing. So that person is in danger. So could you please take a statement and investigate? He turned around and said to me, "No." He said, "I my policy is that we have to wait for 24 hours before we could take a statement from you." So I said to him,
01:01:11 statement from you." So I said to him, "Why aren't you taking a statement now? My son is missing. I know he's in danger because of the racial attack." And the
01:01:26 because of the racial attack." And the second thing is that Ricky always always did things whenever he told me like for example he said to me he'll be home by at 1:00 I knew he would be home by 10 to 1. That was we didn't need a clock or a watch in a house. We he was that precise
01:01:40 watch in a house. We he was that precise anyway. So then he went away. He did not take any statement anything at all at that by that time we asked the Ricky's friends to come to us because Weston
01:01:51 friends to come to us because Weston said we didn't want to know. So that was it. So my brother's friend was an ex- police officer. So he told us that if they are not if
01:02:02 told us that if they are not if perpetrator not not going to deal with it go to Kingston because the incident happened in Kingston. So my husband and
01:02:17 So my husband and Ricky's friends who were with him that night went to Kingston police station and reported Ricky missing there. Ricky's friends who had injuries on their faces were with them and my brother and my husband asked them to
01:02:29 brother and my husband asked them to take a statement. We were very concerned about Ricky missing.
01:02:39 But instead of taking a statement, the police officer who was there, who had been in the Met Police for 30 years, so you would think he was an experienced police officer, turned around and said to us,
01:03:08 you may be arranging a arranged marriage for Ricky. because that's what you Asian people do. And then he turned around and he said, "Your son may be gay. He's run away from home because he doesn't want you to
01:03:21 home because he doesn't want you to know." And then he winked and he said, "Well,
01:03:24 "Well, he may have a girlfriend the family don't approve of, as Asian families do." That was his assumption and that's why he decided to run away. So, we were turned away from the Kingston police station as well. My brother said to him,
01:03:43 station as well. My brother said to him, "Here's Ricky's photograph. We know that there was trouble at Kingston uh town center that night. Some of the Asian youths were attacked. Could you at least go? We know that you have some people down there. Could you go and see if Ricky is downstairs maybe, you know,
01:03:54 Ricky is downstairs maybe, you know, there?" And very reluctantly, he went there and he said, "No, it's not Ricky. Nobody's there of that description is there and we can't help you. More or
01:04:05 there and we can't help you. More or less, we can't take a statement. If you can't find Ricky after 24 hours, come back to us. So from then on, we knew a racist label was placed on our forehead.
01:04:18 forehead. They were not interested in looking for Ricky because Asian families in their opinion do not deserve justice, do not deserve the equal amount of
01:04:32 deserve the equal amount of investigation like anybody else. This is so that was it. So from then on we knew that it was up to us to find Ricky and for seven days we did we went to police
01:04:46 for seven days we did we went to police uh out into Kingston every morning times didn't sleep at all kept on roaming around it Kingston with leaflets printed on Ricky's computer saying if someone has seen Ricky and we did not see a police
01:04:59 Ricky and we did not see a police officer there looking for Ricky and in But
01:05:02 But every there were lots of people who joined in our search looking for Ricky and people were really angry. People were really angry at us. People were
01:05:15 were really angry at us. People were angry at the police. People were angry at us because they said you should be sitting at home
01:05:25 looking after your children because my youngest child was at 11 years old at the time.
01:05:27 the time. And you should be and the police should be doing this, not you.
01:05:39 Mrs. Wiggle, I'm going to ask you a few questions about everything you've just explained just to get a bit more information if that's okay. Um, if I can first deal with um the the police's conduct.
01:05:57 um the the police's conduct. um you've set it out in your statement, but if I can just summarize it that um it's fair to say that you considered their response to be inadequate. Yes.
01:06:04 Yes. Um and that you you consider the police had not properly investigated Ricky's disappearance. They had not searched for Ricky's body, had they during that seven days. Sorry.
01:06:12 Sorry. They had not searched for Ricky's body. Yeah.
01:06:16 Yeah. They had taken months to speak to witnesses. They had not properly looked at CCT footage
01:06:26 footage and they did not carry out any forensic examination on Ricky's clothes or or the scene of where his body was found
01:06:33 found or at the scene. I'm I'm going to go more into the detail about the police conduct, but if I can
01:06:45 about the police conduct, but if I can focus on the the day that you found out um
01:06:53 um the police found Wiki's body wiki's body was found on a you came to Sil
01:07:08 That's all fine. Thank you. May I continue? Thank you. Ricky's body was found on the 21st of October.
01:07:16 October. So like as you said 7 days later and at the time you were at South Mon.
01:07:31 and at the time you were at South Mon. Um and just to clarify the day um on on the 15th of October um the day Ricky went missing it's right to say that you had contacted Sewish Grover who was the co-irector of South Mon
01:07:51 in searching for Ricky. Well, the police were not listening to us and uh we wanted someone to help us and uh I contacted Sesh because I've
01:08:03 and uh I contacted Sesh because I've heard of him and I have met him before um and Suresh came in listened to us and then he went and spoke to my uh MP John
01:08:17 then he went and spoke to my uh MP John Macdonald and they both came in and they have been by my side ever and uh without their support I don't think I would be sitting here today.
01:08:34 think I would be sitting here today. So going back to the day you found out. So you were at South Wing Group and it was a superintendent who had told you that they had found Ricky's body. At the same time, your children were at home
01:08:45 home and it's it's correct to say that two family liers and officers attended your home and told your children
01:08:55 children about finding Rick's body without you or your husband present. Yeah. Um I remember that day very well. Um I was with Sish
01:09:10 Um I was with Sish um because we had gone to I think some sort of press um meeting was arranged and uh we went there on the 21st of October I think. Yeah, sorry my and um
01:09:23 October I think. Yeah, sorry my and um while I was there Sesh received a phone call from the police saying give Mrs. real there because he has some news for her and I thought maybe they found my
01:09:34 her and I thought maybe they found my son and uh were coming to sort of say well he's fine he's in hospital or whatever
01:09:36 whatever and uh I phoned my daughter and because because I was never at home I used to keep contact with my family with my children over the phone
01:09:48 with my children over the phone and uh I found my daughter saying the police are coming to tell us something are you Okay. Is are all of you okay? and uh she was talking and then
01:10:02 and uh she was talking and then the line that went dead and I tried
01:10:15 the line that went dead and I tried phoning still couldn't get through and I phoned I asked Sur to phone my daughter and the there was no connection and at that time um the police officers came in and he said that they discovered Ricky's body from the bottom of the river I don't
01:10:34 from the bottom of the river I don't remember much I think I passed out And I all I remember is somebody pulling me from under the table. And
01:10:40 when I come around,
01:10:50 I think my it was my husband pulling me under the table and his hands and his arms were shaking and and
01:10:55 I was put in the car
01:11:03 and and all throughout the journey I
01:11:05 I I was thinking about how I was going to break this news to our children because I have been promising them that I will bring their brother home.
01:11:23 And when I got home,
01:11:33 one look at your face showed me that there was something wrong there.
01:11:42 When my mom and um and sorry, when my parents had been at South Monitoring Group, they were planning to do a press release. It was the first formal press release that we were going to do. Um, and so it was a big deal. Um,
01:11:54 to do. Um, and so it was a big deal. Um, and um, I had been at home with my older sister and my younger brother who was 11 at the time. I was 17. And um, I was waiting for the family liaison officer
01:12:05 waiting for the family liaison officer who had been involved over several days during those that 7-day period. She was due to come and collect my sister and I
01:12:16 due to come and collect my sister and I so that we could go and purchase a shirt similar to the one Ricky had used for a potential witness appeal. Um, I saw her pull up outside the house. I was sat by the phone, which was by the front of the house, by the window that overlooked the outside of the house. I
01:12:31 overlooked the outside of the house. I saw her pull up with another PC. Um, and she came in. I was on the phone to my mom at the time. We hadn't, at that point, my mom didn't know that Ricky's body had been found. Um and um the
01:12:44 body had been found. Um and um the family lesson officer came into the home where my sister and my younger brother were and a cousin and my elderly aunt and she she came in and she pulled out
01:12:55 and she she came in and she pulled out the phone socket from the wall because we didn't use mobile phones then. The police officer did. Yeah. So the police officer pulled out the phone cord from the wall. Um which meant I hung up abruptly. The call was ended abruptly to my mom which was quite
01:13:07 ended abruptly to my mom which was quite distressing for both of us. And then she turned to my siblings and I um and said quite callously and coldly without any emotion um using the exact words, "We found your brother's body
01:13:21 words, "We found your brother's body body at the bottom of the river." Um and my 11-year-old brother was in the room. Um and I said, "Are you sure it's him?" And she said, "Yes, we found some identification on him. It's definitely him."
01:13:37 him." And then she went to the corner of the room where I'd been sitting where the phone was and her and the PC were cracking jokes in the corner and laughing. I don't know what was so humorous. And whilst they did that, I had an asthma attack. They didn't bother to help me. I had to crawl up the stairs to go and get my asthma inhaler. My sister went into shock and my little
01:13:48 sister went into shock and my little brother was just walking around. Didn't know what to do. And my parents weren't there. And they came home sometime later that day.
01:13:59 that day. When I came home, I uh the children told me what had happened. They couldn't relate to the word used by the police to an 11year-old child that
01:14:13 the police to an 11year-old child that the body of your brother body. We found a body of your brother from the bottom of the river and he just stood there and I went near him. He flinched. It was just like a stone standing there. And my
01:14:27 just like a stone standing there. And my other daughter, elder daughter, was just standing there with a tray, glasses of water on a tray. Didn't know what she was doing. And the two police officers laughing and joking as if. She told me that she had
01:14:39 joking as if. She told me that she had to crawl on her stairs like a dog to get an inhaler. She told the police officers where the inhaler was in her bedroom. Could someone please get it? They
01:14:50 Could someone please get it? They didn't. She would have died that day as well.
01:14:51 well. So I told them to get out of my house. So in my view now looking back they were planted there to get information about
01:15:05 planted there to get information about the family what we were doing how many people were there because every time they came in I asked them what was the update of the case
01:15:16 them what was the update of the case they didn't know but they wanted to know who was there what was their relationship whether when we come to your house as Asian families do we need to take our shoes off or not so from very beginning
01:15:32 so from very beginning an Asian woman, Asian family slave was put on our heads and that's how they treated us.
01:15:42 If I can now move on to the number of investigations into Rick's death. Yeah,
01:15:46 Yeah, there's been quite a few. So, I'm just briefly going to go through them. Um, we've been through the concerns about the initial investigation. So that that the first investigation into
01:16:00 that the first investigation into Ricky's death was dealt by West Drayton police station and Kingston upon temps police station. Now due to your concerns of the first
01:16:13 Now due to your concerns of the first investigation on the 20th of November 97 through your solicitors you made a formal complaint to the police complaints authority the PCA. Yes we did. And this led to Surrey police starting an investigation firstly into um the Metropolitan Police initial
01:16:32 into um the Metropolitan Police initial investigation into Ricky's disappearance and death. Um and that was on 16th of December, but they also had a brief investigation into Ricky's death themselves. It was brief because they asked to take over the investigation because of the concerns that we had regarding the officer that was
01:16:44 regarding the officer that was overseeing the initial investigation, but the Met Police refused to allow Surrey Police who were acting under the PCA to take over the investigation. They refused. They wouldn't hand it over.
01:16:59 refused. They wouldn't hand it over. Um, and it's right to say that the the PCA investigation concluded on the 10th of September and you received a letter
01:17:10 of September and you received a letter from the PCA dated 15th of February 1999 which sets out its finding. Can UCPI 38555 please be put up? Um chair that's at AI13.
01:17:30 So this is the letter U Mrs. W that you received. Can we focus on the first page and the last paragraph?
01:17:44 I'm just going to read it out for you. Um, Mr. It says the investigation has found that there were weaknesses and flaws within the organizational structure and policy and I will address these later. Within these flaws um with within this flawed
01:17:55 um with within this flawed organizational framework, the investigation has found your allegations of neglect of duty in respect of PCD,
01:18:07 of neglect of duty in respect of PCD, PCH and Detective Superintendent Moat to be substantiated as follows. The letter proceeds to set out the failings and you also address this in your witness statement at paragraph 190 to 260, your
01:18:21 statement at paragraph 190 to 260, your second statement. Um, if you can move to page four of this document.
01:18:28 Page four.
01:18:51 So under the subheading five racial issues, if we can go to the third paragraph
01:18:52 paragraph under the heading.
01:19:02 So after setting out the failures, the letter reads, "Sadly, you do not receive from the Metropolitan Police the professional standard of service which you have every right to expect, but this is for the most part attributable to
01:19:13 is for the most part attributable to organizational failings rather than to neglect on the part of any of the
01:19:22 sorry of any particular officer.
01:19:33 of any particular officer. So that was the um the PCA complaint. Um how did you feel when you received this letter?
01:19:40 We were um we we were unhappy is probably an understatement. Disgusted is probably closer to the truth because we had um
01:19:51 closer to the truth because we had um worked with the PCA. we being reintered and relived the events for the PCA. When this letter came through, whilst it was in some ways
01:20:07 was in some ways reassuring that um they had found they'd upheld a majority of our complaint, we were concerned that all we were given after almost a year of work by the PCA was a two-page summary letter and we weren't permitted to see the actual PCA report at that time.
01:20:26 Can the document please please be put down? Um, following this, there was a second main investigation looking into Ricky's death and this was carried out by the racial and violent
01:20:37 carried out by the racial and violent crime task force headed by um, DAC John Griev.
01:20:39 Griev. Mrs. Will, you addressed this investigation at paragraph 133 242 of
01:20:50 investigation at paragraph 133 242 of your second statement. The investigation was from the 1st of November 1998 to the 12th of March 1999. Um, and it's right to say that at the conclusion of this investigation, the police concluded that the identified
01:21:04 police concluded that the identified lines of inquiry had been exhausted, but with no fresh lead or investigations to pursue.
01:21:15 Following this um on the 8th of February 2000, you made a second complaint to the PCA
01:21:20 PCA um and this complaint was about a senior officer DCI Hill who was part of that investigation and you addressed this at paragraph 143 to 144 of your statement.
01:21:36 paragraph 143 to 144 of your statement. The PCA did found no formal misconduct proceedings were justified against um DCI Hill. Mhm.
01:21:42 Following this, there was an inquest held on the 1st of November, 1999, and
01:21:53 held on the 1st of November, 1999, and that lasted for 6 days. The verdict was an open verdict, but it's right to say that police were looking for an accidental death. So, Mrs. Will, how do you feel about the police still maintaining their version of what happened to Ricky during the inquest?
01:22:07 inquest? I feel very angry about it. Because
01:22:16 we had numerous meetings with the police where
01:22:25 where um they told us that they were looking at every kind of inquiry, every type of inquiry. And but we found out later on that parts of our our um
01:22:45 documents that were provided to the police. It came clear during the inquest that they were not handed over or Mr. Mohat kept on saying at the inquest that I wasn't aware of this document or Mrs. real didn't tell me this whereas the log
01:23:00 real didn't tell me this whereas the log of kept by the police has what all these documents were logged in there so I don't know if this you want to take over um so the inquest was um a jury
01:23:13 over um so the inquest was um a jury inquest we had to lobby extremely hard to get a jury inquest um and to get funding for representation at that inquest um because jury inquests were not the norm um um but the reason we lobbied so hard is because we knew
01:23:28 lobbied so hard is because we knew already um and by this time Greavves and his team were already on board and the signs were there that even the second investigation like the first was flawed
01:23:40 investigation like the first was flawed um and was racist in its approach. Um the team when they came on board under grieve under CI24 told us that they would approach the investigation with an open mind. It was clear from comments made when the police gave evidence and the police were at that time being directed by the
01:23:54 at that time being directed by the original investigating officer from the first investigation as well as the second team under Greavves. Um that the uh police um sorry council for the police were being instructed to seek an accidental finding.
01:24:11 accidental finding. Um they um Sue Hill and the evidence box gave evidence to say that in her view this was just a tragic accident and nothing more. Um and they over over and over again in evidence and in submissions to the inquest um to the jury invited the jury to find an
01:24:26 jury invited the jury to find an accidental death verdict. And in press articles around the time which are exhibited to my statement, it was clear that that was the line uh that was the um that was the finding that the police were were seeking despite assuring us
01:24:40 were were seeking despite assuring us that they had approached us with an open mind. And it was also apparent during the course of the inquest that the police um there were missing documents. Um there were lines of inquiry that hadn't in fact been followed up,
01:24:52 hadn't in fact been followed up, including lines of inquiry relating to the bus and um the conductors at the time. Um and that um information we found out at the inquest. Um the police themselves had been past evidence, so names of potential witnesses who may
01:25:06 names of potential witnesses who may have been um witnesses to what happened to Ricky in his last moments. um had been passed on to the police. We had a documentary trail showing it had been passed on to the police. The police even even at the inquest two years after Ricky's death um hadn't followed up
01:25:23 Ricky's death um hadn't followed up those investig those inquiries and were unaware of them until our own council introduced into evidence that those inquir that um information had been passed on to the police and it just sat on the police file for two years. So um yeah, we had no confidence whatsoever in the police before we went into the
01:25:34 the police before we went into the inquest. We had even less when we left and they um asked the jury to find a a accidental death verdict but fortunately
01:25:46 accidental death verdict but fortunately because we had a jury that was rejected. Can I uh come back to the inquest because a couple of points that need explaining here. Um my I always thought that inquest were you go to an inquest
01:25:59 that inquest were you go to an inquest to find out how or what happened to your child. Maybe that's what I thought. Uh when we went there it was a very hostile environment very very hostile environment.
01:26:15 environment. The police knew that Sesh has been by my side all throughout and my brother we all attending same meetings and everything but they were taken away. They were told to go and wait in another room. So I was alone sitting there with my husband.
01:26:31 my husband. Both of us were lost. We didn't know you know the question being asked and everything and
01:26:35 and the coroner made a comment which was irrelevant which should not have been asked and he said to me Mrs. real, you
01:26:46 asked and he said to me Mrs. real, you were attending the Lawrence inquiry. And I said, "Yes, because I have been attending Lawrence inquiry every day." And he said to me, "Could you tell me who did you speak to and said that your son was murdered?"
01:27:00 son was murdered?" He said, "I'm going I'm going to make inquiries about this." So I said, "Well, you know, I was talking to people and there were lots of people coming to me saying, "Your son was murdered. What are you going to do
01:27:13 was murdered. What are you going to do about it? What is the police going to do about it?
01:27:19 about it? And then the coroner made a joke which I have never forgotten because the Ricky's friends went to Kingston police station to show them
01:27:30 Kingston police station to show them their injuries on their faces where they were hit. The coroner turned around and said well you know the boys have said after they left the nightclub they had kebabs. So the coroner said, "Well, they must the injuries, you know, sorry, the
01:27:44 must the injuries, you know, sorry, the injuries were nothing then because they they were able to eat kebabs. Is that normally what happens in the jury or at the inquest? And to find out this, we were denied legal aid. We had
01:27:57 this, we were denied legal aid. We had to get our own money to pay for all the legal bills and everything. So, not only did I lose my child, I lost a lot more.
01:28:09 did I lose my child, I lost a lot more. Just in relation to the inquest, there was a lot of publicity around the inquest. Um, we had press releases. There was a candlelight vigil on the first day and there was a huge public presence outside and um in the public
01:28:23 presence outside and um in the public gallery as well. Um, and I just think it's quite telling that we were told that the object of spying was to do with public disorder. And you would have thought then that given that public presence, all that publicity, all that
01:28:36 presence, all that publicity, all that press, the vigil, that there would have been some surveillance reports around the inquest that there isn't anything. And that to me speaks volumes that there are documents that existed, have been shredded or haven't been disclosed.
01:28:48 shredded or haven't been disclosed. I was always told by the police to go back to work because I t took six months off and I traveled all over the country attending meetings, conferences and
01:29:00 attending meetings, conferences and everything speaking about Ricky's case and I was told by the police to return to work, look after my children because in their view they saw an Asian woman
01:29:13 in their view they saw an Asian woman confronting them and in their opinion Asian women should be tied to the kitchen.
01:29:30 Mr. You've just um spoke about how the police dealt with you. Can I just ask, did you ever hear any overt racist comments made by the police towards you and your family? Yes.
01:29:40 Yes. Could you elaborate? Or wasn't this racist where the police said you arrange Asian arrange marriages or your son is gay?
01:29:50 Or have they have you ever heard of a case where the police have broken news to
01:29:52 to a sibling to an 11 year old child? I haven't heard about that but in in my case it happened. Why did it happen? They also mom was the spokesperson for the family. My dad speaks limited
01:30:04 the family. My dad speaks limited English. Um, English is very much a second language for him. My mom was the one who was communicating to the police officers, talking to them, I was. But
01:30:16 officers, talking to them, I was. But whenever they spoke to my parents, they always addressed my dad. And it was clear that they assumed that in Asian families, you address the male because the male's ahead of the family. They would look past my mom, speak over her,
01:30:28 would look past my mom, speak over her, literally speak over cuz she's so short. Um and um it was clear that that was because they had they assumed this is how Asian families operate.
01:30:40 how Asian families operate. And my husband used to ask me why are they telling me this? But you are the one who was asking questions. So what were they trying to do? You know I don't know what was their agenda.
01:30:52 agenda. And at the very beginning of the investigation and this continued as a theme throughout and continues they refused. They were unwilling to link the racist attack to Ricky's disappearance.
01:31:03 racist attack to Ricky's disappearance. They were investigated separately within the first seven days of Ricky's disappearance. They failed to link the racist attack as a as a factor that increased his risk as a missing person, which should have meant they didn't have to wait the 24 hours. Um and um the
01:31:19 to wait the 24 hours. Um and um the original investigating officer um was at pains to tell us initially that the racial element had nothing to do with separation even though Ricky disappeared immediately following within minutes
01:31:31 immediately following within minutes seconds of the racial attack. Um and that unfortunately that theme of trying to dissociate the race racist attack from Ricky's disappearance continued
01:31:48 from Ricky's disappearance continued throughout the initial investigation and um contaminated and polluted the second investigation who took that up and and ran with it. So if that's not overt racism, I don't know what is. And also, sorry I keep on interrupting. Sorry. Also uh because of the two police stations involved um when I whenever I contacted Weston I
01:32:03 um when I whenever I contacted Weston I was told to ring Kingston and when I ran Kingston they said no it's at Weston because each one were trying to save their resources and with Ricky missing
01:32:17 their resources and with Ricky missing within 24 hours I was told by Kingston police that they have closed the investigation and I said why he's still missing and they said we don't have resources to investigate your son's disappearance.
01:32:28 disappearance. If
01:32:37 If I can ask one more question about the inquest. Um, following the open verdict, you had a meeting with the Metropolitan Police on the 4th of February 2000 to see what further efforts will be made into Ricky's death. Um, since then, what efforts have been made by by the police to look into Ricky's death?
01:32:56 The police told us that the investigation at that time would be reactive as opposed to proactive. Frankly, that wasn't anything new to us. It'd always been um reactive. It was always a case of the family bringing the information to the police saying, "Can
01:33:11 information to the police saying, "Can you follow this up?" During the course of the years that followed up until today, um we have made various appeals and off our own back. Um try to follow
01:33:22 and off our own back. Um try to follow up various things. But there is a limit to what we as as individuals as a a grieving family can do. We don't have the resources and we don't hold the technology that the police hold and we've taken that information as we should to the police and asked them to
01:33:38 should to the police and asked them to follow up on various things that whether they were followed up satisfactorily or not is a separate issue. Um after substantial lobbying on the part of our family, people who have supported our family from day one, including Sesh
01:33:49 family from day one, including Sesh Monitoring Group, um our um MP John McDonald, um the Cole case review agreed to undertake a review of Ricky's case.
01:34:00 to undertake a review of Ricky's case. Um and unfortunately that wasn't wasn't undertaken satisfactorily either.
01:34:15 undertaken satisfactorily either. Um I need to bring something in. Uh, sorry. That's how my memory works. Um, after the inquest, um, a reporter phoned me and she said, I mean, she was quite horrified
01:34:25 horrified and she asked me why I had given permission to Mr. Moffett to print photos taken of Ricky during the postmortem. So we were not aware at
01:34:38 the postmortem. So we were not aware at that stage because we received a letter from the police saying postmortem complete no organs removed from his body. But unfortunately we found out from that reporter that Mr.
01:34:56 from that reporter that Mr. had arranged for another postmortem to be carried out without a knowledge on Ricky where he had a where he removed skin from Ricky's body took photographs retired took these photographs home and
01:35:12 retired took these photographs home and contacted which newspaper was it? Sunday Times.
01:35:12 Times. Sunday Times and spoke to the reporter for 4 hours,
01:35:26 and spoke to the reporter for 4 hours, showed her the photographs and we and he wanted her to print his side of the story with
01:35:39 Moffett was the original investigating officer. Unbeknownst to us, he continued to investigate the case when the second investigation took over, thereby effectively polluting the second investigation that took place under
01:35:50 investigation that took place under Greavves. Some years after the inquest, uh my mom received a phone call from a reporter saying that Moffett, who had retired, taken early retirement to avoid um um action being taken against him following the findings of the PCA
01:36:04 following the findings of the PCA complaint. he take an early retirement to avoid um um punishment effectively
01:36:16 to avoid um um punishment effectively and being held accountable. He would he didn't he took it very personally that his theory that Ricky had fallen into the river accidentally had been disproved and rejected at the inquest 2 years after Ricky died in 99 when we received an open verdict rather than accidental death. He took it very
01:36:31 accidental death. He took it very personally and he contacted a reporter to and the reporter was clear that he had taken photographs taken of Ricky at postmortem that Moffett during his time in the investigation had authorized
01:36:45 in the investigation had authorized without the family's consent without the family's knowledge. During that postmortm he instructed the pathologist to remove all of Ricky's skin. The fact that this second post this that third
01:36:58 that this second post this that third postmortem had taken place was unknown to us until two years after Ricky's death and it came out during the inquest at in 1999. He had taken those photographs stripping Ricky of his dignity
01:37:12 stripping Ricky of his dignity completely into his retirement, kept it at home with his personal belongings where he and his family live. and he had contacted the reporter asking her to
01:37:24 contacted the reporter asking her to publish those photographs in the Sunday Times, a national newspaper, um alongside an article he wanted the Sunday Times to to to write to tell his side of the story. his side of the story
01:37:43 side of the story. his side of the story being that um we were a thorn in the Met Police's side that we had wasted public funds on the inquest and on investigations and to try and convince the reporter that Ricky's death was accidental despite I would say the inquest findings to the contrary. So when you ask what
01:37:58 to the contrary. So when you ask what further efforts were made by the police to find out what happened to Ricky, contrary to making efforts to actually find out what happened to Ricky, they there was subversion going on behind the scenes trying to actually do things like
01:38:10 scenes trying to actually do things like this to take attention away from finding Ricky's killers and turning the attention um to my mom and try and create uh vilify her essentially. And
01:38:21 create uh vilify her essentially. And that was taking focus and resources away from actually finding Mickey's killers. So it was quite the opposite. When I found this out, I um I remember I was home on my own and I remember
01:38:35 was home on my own and I remember opening the window and trying to climb out. I just wanted to kill myself simply because I didn't want my children reading this article in the newspaper and then
01:38:47 and then other children teasing my children about what had happened. And if this is the type of policing in this country, then who needs police officers?
01:38:57 officers? They were spying on us as a family at a time when we were grieving. But the under the police's own nose, under the Met's own nose, one of their own officers was able to take investigatory material, sensitive material home with him into retirement. And the Suresh saw
01:39:19 him into retirement. And the Suresh saw the photographs because I phoned Suresh. He saw the photographs. He contacted my lawyers. At that time, my lawyer was Sadi Khan as well. He spoke to the journalist and um they asked me if I wanted and the police went to Morphett's house, Mr. Morphett's house, and they found the photographs, but he still walked away
01:39:33 photographs, but he still walked away because he came under the same umbrella as the other police officers. He was never prosecuted. Could we take a break, please? Yes.
01:39:36 Yes. Thank you. Um
01:39:40 Um I think everyone would like a break of 20 minutes, would they not? Is that that long enough? That's fine. Thank you. Okay.
01:39:48 Okay. All right.
02:07:20 Mrs. I now want to move on to the topic of justice for Wikile campaign. Um the campaign was set up on the 22nd of October
02:07:31 of October 1997. Can you hear me? Okay, Mrs. Real. Thank you. Um in your statement you explained that the campaign was set up of out of desperation. Could you elaborate why you set up the campaign?
02:07:47 set up the campaign? Um because all the conversations, all the contacts we were making with the police, we were not getting any feedback and we were ignored most of the time or given incorrect information. One
02:08:05 given incorrect information. One uh police station saying we said this, the other one saying no. So we set up the campaign to gather information which will help us to determine how Ricky died. And uh because the main purpose of this
02:08:21 And uh because the main purpose of this campaign is to find out the truth as to what happened to my son. And it was difficult to set it up because I'd never been in that position before.
02:08:30 before. And uh
02:08:32 And uh it's something not people set up just because they want to set up a campaign. Um it is a lot of hard work
02:08:47 Um it is a lot of hard work and it it involves a lot of money as well
02:08:48 well and it involved different like meetings, vigils, petitions, public meetings and working with other justice campaigns
02:09:00 with other justice campaigns and um that was it that that's the reason the main reason was just to find out what happened to Ricky.
02:09:18 out what happened to Ricky. And who was involved in the campaign? Well, initially it was my family and uh Suresh Grover and uh my MP and my brother
02:09:20 brother and um and later on um you know we take
02:09:35 and um and later on um you know we take Mike and um yeah this was once and every time we made any decisions at all about anything at all we discuss it among ourselves. you set up you you explained why the reason you set up the campaigns um and you stated that it was for the truth. Could you elaborate further on
02:09:48 truth. Could you elaborate further on what the purpose of the campaign was? Do you want to go? Um the purpose of the campaign was um
02:09:58 um it was set up out of it wasn't optional. There was no choice and it was there wasn't kind of a formal date that we're going to set up a campaign. just came into being out of necessity um because we were very much aware of the climate at the time. Um we were
02:10:11 the climate at the time. Um we were aware of the um racism within the police force kind of at arms length but we were now exper you know because of press at
02:10:22 now exper you know because of press at the time but we were now experiencing it directly.
02:10:27 directly. Um, we knew that the police weren't going to investigate this beyond assuming, as Moffett did, that it was a tragic accident. Um, they were
02:10:39 tragic accident. Um, they were we were treated in a racist way. We were treated as if we weren't people just because we had brown skin. Um, just cuz my mom was a woman. They didn't want to give us information. Every time we asked them to do something, it was too much trouble. There was an obstacle in the
02:10:51 trouble. There was an obstacle in the way. there wasn't enough resources to to do certain lines of investigation to carry those out. Um and so it became apparent that the police were not willing to deal with us on any other premise other than this is a tragic
02:11:03 premise other than this is a tragic accident. They weren't willing to engage with the issues of um racism that they that Ricky's death was a racist murder um firstly and secondly that we were being treated in a way that was racist openly and overtly. Um, and they weren't
02:11:19 openly and overtly. Um, and they weren't willing to communicate with us properly. They weren't willing to pass along information. They weren't willing to take information we gave them that people had given to us to say, "Oh, I saw this or I heard this." Um, we were
02:11:31 saw this or I heard this." Um, we were gathering the evidence. We were the ones who were gathering the CCTV and giving it to the police. So, it was clear that there wasn't um there was nothing more than more than there was no more than a bare bones investigation going on. and
02:11:45 bare bones investigation going on. and that was investigation was a means to an end to in Moffett's eyes to prove that Ricky's death was accidental. Um, and so we knew that we weren't going to get justice for Ricky, by which I mean
02:11:57 justice for Ricky, by which I mean finding out what happened to him and holding those people accountable. and we
02:12:08 holding those people accountable. and we weren't going to get the service that we deserve from the police um if we didn't apply a coordinated um
02:12:13 um I suppose if we didn't coordinate um our efforts to engage with and encourage the police to investigate Ricky's case properly. I I think it
02:12:24 Ricky's case properly. I I think it became more apparent that the police were not treating um Ricky's death or at
02:12:36 were not treating um Ricky's death or at the time Ricky's disappearance seriously and that we needed to do something is 2 days later uh while we were going like I said previously that we spend most of our time in Kingston. We were on our way out to Kingston and then a big van stopped
02:12:49 to Kingston and then a big van stopped right in front of a house and the police officers ran into my house took my husband to the garage and me in the house and they started searching for I don't know what they were searching for in my house and whether they thought
02:13:04 in my house and whether they thought we've heard Ricky wei were hiding him in our house and um then they searched the house they searched the garage and they said uh well that's fine we've done our job I said, "No, you haven't." And he
02:13:17 job I said, "No, you haven't." And he said, "Why?" I said, "Well, I've got a loft. Why don't you go up and check whatever you're checking for?" I said, "I'll ask my husband to bring the ladder and you can check it there as well." And the the other and I was angry
02:13:33 and I was angry thinking that they probably thought that we have heard Ricky because of the assumptions made before arranged marriages, not um you know knowing what Ricky was up to or whatever. They probably thought that that's what he was doing and still doing and that's why we probably hurt him or
02:13:45 and that's why we probably hurt him or whatever and locked him somewhere in the house. And the other issue with the campaign was that when Ricky's Ricky's Ricky's we'd been asking the police for the first week to search for Ricky um and as you heard from mom that we were
02:13:58 and as you heard from mom that we were the ones doing the searching and we were the ones um seizing CCTV. Um and we had no investigatory skills. We were new to the police. We didn't know how any of this worked. We were making missing person's posters at home ourselves
02:14:10 person's posters at home ourselves rather than the police doing it on Ricky's computer. Um the only place we couldn't search was the rivers and we had asked them several times to undertake a search. The search um
02:14:22 undertake a search. The search um finally took place on the 21st as you know and Ricky's body was found within 6 minutes in 4T of water and Ricky was over 5 foot. So it would have been so
02:14:33 over 5 foot. So it would have been so easy for that surgery undertaken so much sooner. Um, and so much more evidence could have been seized if that was done sooner. Um, but he was found so quickly
02:14:44 sooner. Um, but he was found so quickly in such shallow water and I say that was the only place we couldn't search. Um and at at the riverbank there were press reporters there and um Moffett um who was the first investigating the
02:14:58 was the first investigating the consultant who was overseeing the first investigation um said to a reporter at the scene um who asked what's happened and Moffett's response was we found Ricky um this was simply a tragic accident we will be
02:15:11 simply a tragic accident we will be closing the case. So this is as soon as Ricky's body is found in the river. there's been no forensics of um Ricky's clothes of the scene. There's been no postmortem. And so it was that was what we were battling and that was what drove
02:15:26 we were battling and that was what drove the necessity for the campaign. And this is the same officer who as you've heard went on to um he he instructed the pathologist. That was his role as the um senior investigating officer that first investigation. and he instructed the
02:15:39 investigation. and he instructed the pathologist that in his view this was a tragic accident and that the path the the postmortem was carried out on the basis this was a tragic accident and for that reason there was no forensic examination of Ricky's clothes there was no for example analysis to see whether
02:15:51 no for example analysis to see whether any of the injuries on Ricky's body um coordinated with marks on his clothing which it later became apparent did but that evidence that Ricky had defensive marks on his body and injuries that
02:16:03 marks on his body and injuries that coincided with for example a tear to his only came out because we involved people like Sesh and John McDonald um and solicitors who advised us to get a second postmortem which we did and
02:16:16 second postmortem which we did and that's what brought out that evidence. So without that coordinated approach from other people outside of the family which would eventually um turn into what is now called the justice of Ricky Will campaign. We wouldn't have that evidence. The police wouldn't have
02:16:27 evidence. The police wouldn't have benefited from that evidence and we as a family wouldn't have benefited from that evidence. And this is the same officer who authorized a further postmortem and removed Ricky's skin. Um, and we got a
02:16:43 removed Ricky's skin. Um, and we got a letter from the police telling us that no organs were removed from Ricky's body. It's in black and white. And the skin is the biggest organ of the body. So that was a lie. And that was done without a consent. There was no consent
02:16:54 without a consent. There was no consent from our family to remove Ricky's skin. And we always wondered why at Ricky's funeral, which was only 3 weeks, um, which is 2 weeks after he was found, um, when we went to go and see him, he, because he'd been in cold water, he looked like Ricky.
02:17:09 looked like Ricky. But when we saw him at the open casket funeral, he was unrecognizable. I couldn't st I couldn't watch. I couldn't I couldn't stand by his. I promised myself I'd stay with him and I couldn't because I couldn't look at what had
02:17:20 because I couldn't look at what had happened to his I couldn't understand the deterioration in his body. Um, and we now know that the reason that had
02:17:31 we now know that the reason that had happened is because without our consent, Moffett had instructed the pathologist after being after we'd been told that the postmortems were complete, he had gone in, asked the pathologist to go back in, remove Ricky's skin, and that's how Ricky's body was delivered to us for the funeral. Um, and that's where the
02:17:43 the funeral. Um, and that's where the Sunday, it wasn't, sorry, I think I said the Times, it was the Daily Mail, it was the Mail on Sunday reporter got involved and Moffett was allowed to take those harrowing pictures of Ricky stripped of
02:17:58 harrowing pictures of Ricky stripped of his skin into retirement. And they were so bad, those photos, that we couldn't see them. We had to ask the police um to show we had to ask the um police to show Sesh the photos cuz we couldn't see
02:18:09 Sesh the photos cuz we couldn't see them. So when you ask why you know why what was the context why was it set up that's what we were battling and continue to battle even after the campaign was set up there were uh sorry
02:18:24 campaign was set up there were uh sorry there were stalls at that time obviously we have social media now which is quite good at the time people used to have stalls and we used to print our leaflets and give it to everyone you know have you seen him any information or whatever and I remember one incident where this uh lady which she was from SWP she had a
02:18:52 uh lady which she was from SWP she had a stroll there and She attended our vigils and whatever we we did we did and uh um she was at a stall and this woman came in and gave her a piece of paper with somebody's address on it and uh then that woman phoned me and she said, "Sup, I've been given a paper. where is somebody's address on it saying this is where the racist live or these
02:19:07 this is where the racist live or these people who may be um you know connected somehow to Ricky's murder. So we found the police and the police went there and picked up the paper and uh they they told her they said we will investigate.
02:19:20 told her they said we will investigate. We said fine. So when we asked them what was the outcome of this investigation,
02:19:30 they told us honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
02:19:37 or cry. They told us yes we visited the address. These are white educated people. Their house is clean. They can't be racist.
02:19:51 So we were dealing with this type of behavior which has continued even after 28 years. So that's the reason we are here to find out why we are here. Yeah. It felt like we were they were trying to contain us as a family. They didn't want us to ask questions or challenge them and if we did um they
02:20:05 challenge them and if we did um they weren't challenging questions. They were questions like you know have you interviewed this witness? What has this said? You know just run-of-the-mill questions. nothing out of the ordinary.
02:20:16 questions. nothing out of the ordinary. Um, but they were defensive and we felt very much as though we're trying to be contained. This was an accident. Said to mom, "You go back to work. We go back to school." And Moffet actually said on the day Ricky's body was found, have said
02:20:28 day Ricky's body was found, have said that comment to the um uh reporter who was at the scene, he said to us, "Well, my role has finished. Ricky's body has been found. I'm leaving this
02:20:42 been found. I'm leaving this investigation." although we later found out that he continued and over overlapped with the second investigation. And so the campaign was necessary because we felt very much as though the police were trying to shut us down and shut us up effectively and we
02:20:56 down and shut us up effectively and we needed voice and we weren't getting that across on our own.
02:21:02 And it's right to say that on the 17th of January 1988 the campaign was formally launched at a public meeting. Um
02:21:09 Um and
02:21:11 and Mrs. Will in your statement you mentioned that Neville Lawrence attended the meeting when the campaign was launched. How did he come about to attending the meeting?
02:21:25 attending the meeting? I think uh during that time Sesh was working with the Lawrence family and we had our first meeting. I remember that it was in South um and uh Mr. Lawrence was invited as a guest speaker and uh we he has always supported my
02:21:40 and uh we he has always supported my campaign and I have supported his we have spoken uh we have shared platforms during very many meetings we have spoken about and whenever we meet we don't ask how you are because we know how we are and he
02:21:51 are because we know how we are and he always said to me I'm here for you if you need support and I've always said the same so um we were together when the first day of
02:22:02 first day of this inquiry uh opened I think with Mr. Pittford. So we both were sitting there we both attended that and I was at the
02:22:19 we both attended that and I was at the Lawrence inquiry he invited me there and I remember when everybody the first day when everybody was told to leave or something I you know it's a bit not clear with me but I remember him saying sukdev stay Mrs. Rio stay behind so he has always supported me. Yeah,
02:22:36 so he has always supported me. Yeah, Mr. Will, you mentioned before that you attended the Steve Lawrence um inquiry and you touched upon this in your statement that you attended nearly every day. Why did you feel important to attend?
02:22:47 attend? Because I wanted to support another family who was going through the same process same as I support lots of other families and um because also Mr. Lawrence had invited me. So um it was um
02:23:00 Lawrence had invited me. So um it was um I need his support, he needed support. I wanted to show him that I'm here for and half the time listening to the evidence that was presented um were very similar to mine. The mistakes that were made in
02:23:16 to mine. The mistakes that were made in that case were very similar to mine. And I remember sometimes when the pain got too much, I used to go to the toilets and vomit because I was thinking, you know, they made them mistakes. But what lessons have they learned? they haven't learned any lessons because the same
02:23:29 learned any lessons because the same mistakes were made in our case. So I was there as a supporter. I was there to listen to what mistakes were being made and uh just generally as a supporter.
02:23:40 and uh just generally as a supporter. You also gave evidence at the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Yes, I did. And I remember that day really well. I uh a lawyer made submission uh to the Lawrence inquiry which was public knowledge
02:23:53 which was public knowledge and uh so we I went with Suresh my husband and my brother and we were told at the time that because of the pending um
02:24:05 um um
02:24:07 um because uh because the inquest had happened. they were we were waiting for the date for the inquest and they said
02:24:18 the date for the inquest and they said um the panel said I couldn't speak about this case
02:24:29 this case so I was angry and I was annoyed and I thought we made a submission and I should be given a chance to speak and
02:24:33 and what I didn't re I was speaking to Sesh and what I didn't realize was that an undercover probably officer was sitting pray
02:24:41 pray and there was a lot of press and I remember saying to Suresh that uh if I'm not given a chance to speak I'm going to
02:24:55 not given a chance to speak I'm going to stand on the table and tell people about my case because that's that's why I was there
02:24:57 there and um suddenly um there was a recess the panel went into the room and they came back and they said yes you can speak
02:25:09 they said yes you can speak and I was with the Manson family as well. So obviously I wasn't allowed to talk about the case but I gave I can give recommendations and just a general
02:25:20 give recommendations and just a general overview of the investigation and that's where I gave um you know I also recommended that the role of the family less and officers needs to be changed among other things. Yes, I did speak
02:25:34 among other things. Yes, I did speak there and I met Mr. Greavves there as well with the reporter who was well known to our case. If I now can move on to um you leazing with other campaigns. Yeah,
02:25:50 Yeah, I'm going to go through a number of reports and then ask you questions about the reports. Can um MPS01147 be put up please? Chair that's um B1. So Mrs. as well. This is a intelligent
02:26:11 So Mrs. as well. This is a intelligent report by HN81, David Hagen. His um code name Tilter is at the top. It's dated 25th of June 1998. I'm just going to get my bases.
02:26:27 So J is waiting. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to get the paper copy of that. It's B1.
02:26:37 Oh yeah.
02:26:57 Okay. So this is a a report in relation to a meeting held by new neuro monitoring group regarding the Steven Lawrence inquiry. If we can go to page two, third paragraph from the third line.
02:27:14 So from the third line if I can read. So I'm going to read out um two paragraphs Mrs. Wheel and then I'm going to ask you some questions. So firstly this part here it says third line SMG which is South Mountain Group is the lead
02:27:26 South Mountain Group is the lead organization in both the Lawrence case and the case of Ricky Wheel. MFJ which is movement for justice believed that
02:27:37 is movement for justice believed that the real case is the logical next step to concentrate on after the Lawrence case due to the fact that there appears to be good evidence of police mismanagement and racism in it. The paragraph then sets out what
02:27:51 The paragraph then sets out what happened to Ricky. Um, and if we can focus on the last sentence of the paragraph, it says, "The case is still not recognized by the police either as murder or a racial killing, but MFJ see a real opportunity to develop the
02:28:06 a real opportunity to develop the situation as a next campaign against the police.
02:28:08 police. So firstly, what do you think about the comment made by David Hagen in relation to SMG being the lead organization for Wiki Real Cause?
02:28:21 Wiki Real Cause? They were
02:28:27 They were um who was in control of the campaign? It was firmly the family. It was family led. It was supported by others, but it was family led and um and that we were front and center of the
02:28:38 that we were front and center of the campaign. And that's always been the case.
02:28:41 case. And
02:28:49 again repeating, MFJ believe that the real case is next logical next step to concentrate on. Did you have any concerns that MFJ were using your justice campaign as a vehicle to campaign against the police? No, I don't think so.
02:29:09 If I can um this document can um be I'm done with this document. Can we put up
02:29:21 document MPS 0128 um chair that's at B5.
02:29:34 Um this is another intelligent report by um 1881 David Hagen. It's dated the 3rd of September 1998. regarding a SW meeting held in Hackne. Um the first paragraph says it was attended by 200 people
02:29:52 says it was attended by 200 people and speakers include George Silkot Miner Simpson
02:29:59 Simpson Wheel and Gary Faring from the SWT SOP sorry if you now focus on paragraph three.
02:30:11 So,
02:30:16 can we zoom out again? I think I got it the wrong.
02:30:24 Oh, yes. Can we go yet? Go to paragraph three.
02:30:31 This is in relation to Alex Orali approaching you. Um and 1881 points out from the third line from the fourth line from the bottom. The result of this intervention is that both parties have agreed to attend the MFJ demonstrations
02:30:47 agreed to attend the MFJ demonstrations on the first day of the second stage of the SL SL inquiry. Order now has Mrs. Re's mobile telephone number which with which to maintain a
02:30:59 number which with which to maintain a regular contact. So we can see Hent81 paying close attention to the interaction between yourself and Mr. Ol or how did you feel when you found that out?
02:31:06 out? Very angry. Would you like to let He seems like he was stuck to me like glue watching each and every moment of what I was doing. I bet he was also
02:31:18 what I was doing. I bet he was also I don't know. I'm just very angry about it.
02:31:24 it. And um about my telephone number I was giving to everyone because we wanted information. We wanted people to tell us what happened if they heard anything. So my telephone number was with everyone but it hurts to know that he was so
02:31:40 but it hurts to know that he was so close to me to see this number being given to Alex and maybe he also noted my number. Who knows?
02:31:50 knows? Okay, if we now can turn to your statement. So that's UCPI 38548. Is that a I7? Um, can you turn to page 41, paragraph 183?
02:32:08 So, page 41, paragraph 183.
02:32:19 183 is on page so 184. I do apologize. 184, the first paragraph. So this is in in in relation to a a meeting
02:32:29 in so what I do recall is Alex from MFJ addressing the meeting prominently from the floor from the audience. I recall
02:32:41 the floor from the audience. I recall Neville Lawrence who was on the platform being annoyed by Alex intervention and saying something like I can speak for myself. I was worried of MFJ then and for some time before and after. Could
02:32:54 for some time before and after. Could you explain further why you were worried um before and after this incident about MFJ
02:33:08 see the 134? Yeah. Um I recall this meeting I think if I'm not mistaken that was held in Hansow Civic Center if that's the meeting we're talking about. And I think um I was there with Mr. Lawrence. We both spoke from the same platform and I
02:33:28 both spoke from the same platform and I remember maybe that was the first time I probably saw Alex and there was some um something he was saying from the floor but I think I if I remember it I got off and I walked away because I don't um
02:33:41 because I don't um uh
02:33:43 uh really I'm not the sort of person that will put up with violence or any angry words or whatever. So my motive is wherever we go, we I will only attend
02:33:55 wherever we go, we I will only attend anything where there's going to be um there will not be any not be any violence or anything. So any kind of violence frightens me. So I always step away and that's what my son was like.
02:34:07 away and that's what my son was like. So why were you concerned about violence?
02:34:11 violence? I don't know. I just don't like violence. I've seen enough of it at my work.
02:34:18 So, what concerns did you have about MFJ then? I have no concerns but any you know if somebody somebody starts saying something made you worried about the future
02:34:41 made you worried about the future I think I think um he was talking about arranging something about the Steven Lawrence campaign and I think Mr. Lawrence disagreed with that. Going back, it's difficult to remember, but but that was it was something
02:34:56 but but that was it was something between them and I just I didn't want um anyone to sort of I felt that any decisions that are made regarding the campaign should be made by the people who are running the campaign.
02:35:11 Um I'm now going to move on to um another document um MPS01462.
02:35:19 Could that be put on the screen? Chab B15.
02:35:25 B15. So Mrs. This is a a report dated 26th of October 1998 and it's in relation to a March for for Ricky in Kingston. I'm going to cover three areas in this report. Yeah.
02:35:39 report. Yeah. So firstly if we can look at um source comment the first paragraph
02:35:52 it says the presence of of Michael Bradley and privacy as well as her local branch members clearly indicates that SWP
02:35:54 SWP are attempting to court Mrs. Will. However, their efforts are meeting with little success as Mrs. has indicated that she has concerns over the
02:36:08 that she has concerns over the objectives of some political groups and she has been warned specifically about SWP.
02:36:10 SWP. So firstly, um do you agree that SWP were were trying to court you on this occasion?
02:36:17 occasion? Nobody quoted me. Pardon?
02:36:18 Pardon? Nobody quoted me. I'm a woman who speaks my mind. Can you recall if you had been warned about some political groups or about SWP? No.
02:36:32 SWP? No. Um,
02:36:36 Um, did you ever get the impression that any other of the groups were trying to exploit or pressurize your campaign for any other agenda? Not to my knowledge.
02:36:48 Not to my knowledge. And like you said, you know, you're you're quite well spoken. Um, it's fair to say that you were not going to be influenced by or pressure-wise by any other campaigns
02:36:58 other campaigns because we knew what why we set up the campaign and what objectives were and we will not let anybody else dictate to us what we need to do, what we we don't need to do. So, we knew where we were going and we knew why we were going in that direction if you can. So, I'm done with this
02:37:10 if you can. So, I'm done with this because this has always been a family-led campaign. So nobody was allowed to hijack our campaign. If there were somebody was trying to do that, we would have walked away.
02:37:21 would have walked away. If I could now focus on the second paragraph on the source comment.
02:37:28 Um this reads, "Swish Grover from the SMG addressed the rally, but with relative relatively little interest. The MFJ viewpoint was that the demonstration was a pitiful reflection of a year's campaigning and how Mrs. 's case is
02:37:42 campaigning and how Mrs. 's case is being sus squandered by her reliance on Grover whose main attention is is main attention lies elsewhere. Um so I just want to focus on on the last part. Um how Mrs. Will's case is being squandered
02:37:56 how Mrs. Will's case is being squandered by her reliance on on Grover. Um what do you make about that comment? I think the reality is it's difficult for us to say because it's it's this person's opinion. Um and I don't know what he's based it on. I don't know the context of the reporting. So we we can't
02:38:16 context of the reporting. So we we can't say. I can say that fact actually that's not correct because um Sesh's attention didn't lie elsewhere at that time. He was very much involved. Um but yeah, I can't comment on what they've said. It's their opinion. If I now come with the deferred point for
02:38:28 now come with the deferred point for this um report. So can we zoom out and go to the last? I would just say though if there was very little interest in respect to that report and they felt that interest in the campaign was dwindling I question
02:38:42 the campaign was dwindling I question why the surveillance continued when it was clear
02:38:46 was clear in his opinion that there wasn't much interest in the case.
02:39:00 Okay. move to the third um point for this um report. Um last paragraph is MFJ have grown weary of Mrs. Will's fear of being seen to cause trouble so do not intend to waste too much time on this case. You've you you've mentioned that you were you didn't want to be involved in violence. Um do you agree with this
02:39:15 in violence. Um do you agree with this comment and what concerns did you have about being seen to cause trouble? I don't know why he wrote that. No, I don't know. I think he needs to be here and you need to ask him.
02:39:26 to ask him. But I think what it does show very clearly is that we were a peaceful campaign. Um we were using law abiding um
02:39:37 um techniques, methods, processes to challenge the lack of investigation and the racism within the police force. Um, and
02:39:45 and whether people grew weary, uh, whether people grew weary of us or didn't or did or didn't, it was their choice. As we've said, this was a family-led campaign. We moved forward. Whether people wish to
02:39:57 moved forward. Whether people wish to move forward with us or not was entirely their decision. Thank you. I'm done with this document. Mr. I'm now going to move to the next topic, which is undercover police officer. And I'm going to first deal
02:40:13 officer. And I'm going to first deal with how you when you first found out about being um se having surve on on your family. So it's actually on the 18th of July 2014 you had a meeting with officers from operation. Yeah. I'm just going to my statement.
02:40:30 So you addressed at paragraph 20 227 to 232 of your statement.
02:40:44 Yeah. So, it was on this occasion where you were told that the Justice for Wiki will campaign had been subjected to surveillance and intelligence gathering by undercover police officers. Sorry,
02:41:08 sorry. 227. you said. So you you covered this at paragraph 227 to 232 of your statement. Yeah.
02:41:14 Yeah. A meeting with Operation Hearn where you were told that your campaign had been under police surveillance. How did you feel hearing that your campaign had been under surveillance?
02:41:27 How did you feel when you found out that we've been spied?
02:41:30 spied? Sorry, could you repeat the question again? So, you were told that the Ricky World campaign had um undercover police officers surveilling it. Yeah. How did you feel when you found out? Uh
02:41:44 Uh I think I was in a shock. Um but
02:41:58 we were told that um there were 10 reports I think and that these reports were simply collateral intrusion. we were not d uh um
02:42:06 um directly
02:42:08 directly um
02:42:09 um involved in this and that's I would say that they said this the surveillance of a campaign was simply collateral intrusion
02:42:23 collateral intrusion and um this is what they told us and I think at that time um
02:42:40 just give me a and the police. I think we were shocked um because we had tried to put as much of the way that the police had treated us behind us. It had made us ill. It had had an impact on our family already. And I'm I'm talking about just the way they treated us during the first second investigations
02:42:53 during the first second investigations and the inquest and followed. So when we found out that they'd spied on us, you would have thought nothing could
02:43:05 you would have thought nothing could have shocked us at that point after what we'd lived through with the Met Police. But we stood corrected on that day because um we were in shock that in this day and age
02:43:13 age that that could happen. I was shocked that that could happen to me in my generation. I knew stuff like that had gone on my mom's generation when she was younger. Couldn't believe it. And um it
02:43:28 younger. Couldn't believe it. And um it it just it was it was retraumatizing. It just felt like we weren't people. The way the police treated us during the initial two investigations completely dehumanized us because we were with brown skin. Um it felt like that was
02:43:42 brown skin. Um it felt like that was happening all all over again. Um and we couldn't understand why it had taken so long for this information to come out. And we felt humiliated.
02:43:54 humiliated. We felt stripped yet again of our dignity
02:43:59 dignity um of whatever minuscule pieces of peace we'd managed to put back together again in our lives. It completely derailed all of that. And I I can't I can't it's it's so difficult to put into words the impact that that had. I
02:44:14 into words the impact that that had. I remember when they told us I was sitting there and um I don't know what happened to me. I couldn't see. I room went blank black and John McDonald had to tell the police officers to go and wait in
02:44:29 police officers to go and wait in another room. And I remember when I came around I asked questions but we were reassured by this these police officers don't worry about it. It's only collateral. We didn't target you personally. So no information about you
02:44:47 personally. So no information about you or Ricky is in the reports so you don't need to worry. But I just sat there thinking
02:44:51 thinking I thought you know they don't do things like this anymore. But I remember they sitting with my daughter and pulling my cardigan. I thought they could see through to me. I thought I was sitting
02:45:04 through to me. I thought I was sitting there naked because of their spine. And since that day I keep on seeing eyes everywhere. And I went home. I don't know how I got home. I went home and I
02:45:16 know how I got home. I went home and I told my husband what had happened and he said, "Why can't they leave us alone? How much more can we endure?" Now you you said that they used the phrase collateral intrusion.
02:45:27 phrase collateral intrusion. They kept on repeating that as if we weren't the target, it was somebody else. So it it was I think the that this term was used to sort of say to us,
02:45:39 term was used to sort of say to us, don't worry about it. We spying on you, but don't worry about it. And how did that make you feel? Humiliated. Why the hell were they doing it? And then I I think I remember asking
02:45:51 then I I think I remember asking something about the phones as well because every time uh there were calls about meetings and things like this. There was always a click at the end of my call
02:46:02 my call and u now I can understand they were listening to our calls as well and then one of my friends told me he said do you know I I was just talking to her about these clicks and one of my friends told
02:46:20 these clicks and one of my friends told me she said that's how they you know the police record messages or you know they were listening to your phone calls and sometimes
02:46:22 sometimes um just don't know either I suppose I used to talk about the things whatever somebody was asking And I was just are you make you make sure you write it write it down. It was just I don't know.
02:46:37 write it down. It was just I don't know. I I I didn't think that things like this could happen especially to a family who's lost a child who's never been given a time to grieve. 28 years I've been sitting here attending meetings one after another dealing with the
02:46:48 after another dealing with the paperwork. Hell of a paperwork this inquiry has produced and the case and everything. I haven't sat down for one day in the 28 years and said, "I'll grieve for Unic." I still put his dinner
02:47:01 grieve for Unic." I still put his dinner plate on the table thinking he will come and eat his dinner. I wish they would leave us alone so that we can sit down and say yes.
02:47:18 we can sit down and say yes. I'll start grieving for him and I cannot do that until I get justice and justice has been denied to us for the 28 years simply because of my color. I think what was really difficult for us because I was at that meeting with my mom and I was heavily pregnant at the time and it was
02:47:29 time and it was reconciling in our own head and it's irreconcilable. You can't do it. But
02:47:44 irreconcilable. You can't do it. But at a time when we were at our lowest e at a time when we were um begging the police to investigate Ricky's death properly at a time when we were asking the police to put resources into the investigation
02:47:59 investigation to do undertake certain things. We heard for example, you know, we we heard more on more than one occasion during the inquest in 1999 that the excuse for certain lines of investigation not being done at all or being done in a timely manner was a lack of resources. Fed up of hearing that phrase during the
02:48:13 of hearing that phrase during the investig during the inquest in 1999. at that time um and at a time when we were told don't worry um first you know at a time when we made a complaint to the PCA
02:48:28 we made a complaint to the PCA um about the police's conduct and they reviewed all the files and no one mentioned anything to us about surveillance and they took the entirety of the investigation files the PCA did sorry police at that time they diverted resources they had
02:48:41 they diverted resources they had resources available to them to spy on our family. Not what not just once but on multiple occasions over a period of time
02:48:53 time at a time when we were begging the police concurrently to please investigate Ricky's death properly. They're not just financial resources, investigative resources, the special skills that special branch talk about
02:49:09 skills that special branch talk about them having um that weren't employed in Ricky's investigation to find Ricky's killers and time. Um we've been told countless times over the years and still and recently there is only so much time this is real. Um we have an infinite
02:49:22 this is real. Um we have an infinite amount of time. We only have a team of X. We have an infinite amount of resources and we have all these other cases we need to look at but resources, time, skills, effort um and what and
02:49:36 time, skills, effort um and what and were were coordinated in such a way to produce these reports. I'm I'm now going to uh move on to a document. Could MPS072
02:49:49 document. Could MPS072 Can I just mention in respect to the 2014 meeting if I may just some other points um they told we asked for disclosure of the reports at that meeting and we were told at the July 2014 meeting we can't disclose them
02:50:03 2014 meeting we can't disclose them because um they you know they center around potentially um
02:50:07 um the nature of the reports I'm assuming MFJ are to do with, you know, um anti- um uh public disorder
02:50:19 know, um anti- um uh public disorder issues and so we might not be able to disclose them to you. There might be issues around that. But having seen that disclosure, it's absolutely clear to anybody
02:50:28 anybody um who who even hasn't read all the documents in this inquiry that there is no evidence in those of us being involved in any type of any any of that that the police thought was going on.
02:50:42 that the police thought was going on. Everything we did was peaceful. Um so when they said to us and we can't disclose them for this reason that's not true. The the police had the reports when they met us in July 2014. Nothing in those reports associates us with any public disorder activity. So I
02:50:56 public disorder activity. So I I um it's yet another example of the police misleading us and not telling us the truth in that meeting when they came to say look we're very sorry that this
02:51:10 to say look we're very sorry that this happened. It's meaningless because every time the police assure us of something as they did in July 2014, um it turns out years down the line, years unfortunately, um that that's not true and we have to
02:51:23 um that that's not true and we have to start process all over again. And it's only when we challenge and we have things like this inquiry that things come out and we'd have to relive everything all over again. Um and they
02:51:34 everything all over again. Um and they said they said at that meeting because I took the notes of that meeting that nothing person don't don't worry Mrs. Real nothing personal was noted in respect of your family. This is all collateral but we've seen in the reports
02:51:45 collateral but we've seen in the reports that they refer to personal issues. They talk about my mom being very emotional crying. They talk about her health and the impact that would have on the campaign. So when they say to us don't worry there's nothing personal in there in July 2014. Again, that wasn't true
02:52:00 in July 2014. Again, that wasn't true because we've seen now that there are there are a number of personal um comments made in those reports. Um and they said to us, as mom said, that this
02:52:14 they said to us, as mom said, that this wasn't this was collateral. It it was it um so they were kind of towing the met line of don't worry, this was collateral. You don't need to be worried. Um this wasn't targeted. um we're just letting this it was it was a professional courtesy to us, you know, handholding reassuring,
02:52:29 handholding reassuring, but we found out that we this was absolutely specific. It wasn't collateral damage. We we read in one of the reports, which I'm sure we'll come on to with 1881, that he he chose to
02:52:43 on to with 1881, that he he chose to drive my mom home on her own like anyone else in the car from a meeting to our family home to our address. and she was
02:52:54 family home to our address. and she was on her own and she was vulnerable. So it was very much targeted. He made that decision and as we've heard the training for SDS officers, we've seen it in the reports is all intelligence is good intelligence. So what information did we have in that
02:53:08 what information did we have in that report and we don't have we don't have a report for what happened um on that drive home. Anything could have happened. So when he they say it's collateral damage that's not true. It was that was just PR management on on the part of the police. they knew exactly
02:53:18 exactly what had gone on because they had the reports and at the highest levels in the within the police they'd been briefed about what was within those reports. So that just wasn't true I think.
02:53:29 that just wasn't true I think. And then they said also that in that meeting
02:53:31 meeting that information was contained within special branch that it didn't pass over
02:53:43 special branch that it didn't pass over to the Met that there was very much um a a a barrier and that information wasn't passed along. But again, and I'm sure you'll come on to the reports, we've seen that there was an established line of communication specifically set up between special branch and CO24. CO24
02:53:57 between special branch and CO24. CO24 John Grieve was the officer in charge of the second investigation to Ricky's death serving in the Met Police. So that was and that didn't happen accidentally. This wasn't, oh dear, we've leaked some information to the Met. We're very sorry. That was a very very deliberate
02:54:09 sorry. That was a very very deliberate chain of command and communication was set up to share information from special branch to the Metropolitan Police. So that assurance at that meeting in July 2014 are really sorry but we I promise you it didn't impact on the
02:54:20 you it didn't impact on the investigation. We didn't share information to the Met in fact they were sharing it to the very division that was heading up the second investigation to Ricky's death which we told was
02:54:31 Ricky's death which we told was approaching and it was set up you know in response to the Lawrence inquiring and the recommendations year 24. We were told it was approaching MK's investigation with an open mind, but in the background resources were being diverted and intelligence was coming one
02:54:47 diverted and intelligence was coming one way um and pro both way from SDS um into the Met Police that was investigating Ricky's case. So again, that was
02:54:57 Ricky's case. So again, that was inaccurate, but we only find out because of this of this process. We would never have known that. Um and we would have had to we would have relied on that assurance. Um and it simply wasn't true. It was a lie. Um and they told us that um
02:55:09 um the purpose of the meeting was kind of to handhold to reassure us to make us feel better. Um it didn't do that and in fact they just used it as an opportunity to feed us lies which I've just
02:55:23 to feed us lies which I've just explained weren't true to feed us information that would contain us. Again just like the early days of the investigation it was all about containing the family PR management.
02:55:35 containing the family PR management. don't ask too many questions. Um because they because we we found out that everything they said actually wasn't
02:55:48 everything they said actually wasn't true. So that was not a reassurance. It was an exercise in managing us. Um and that's abundantly clear. It was clear then and it's even clearer now that we've had some of those documents disclosed to us. Um and I remember during that meeting um we were told that I think it was by Kraock that he
02:56:02 I think it was by Kraock that he couldn't be sure could be certain that the documents we had were all the documents
02:56:04 documents and he said that the documents that weren't relevant so you know relating to public disorder should have when they went up the chain
02:56:20 should have when they went up the chain should have been shredded got rid of and shouldn't exist anymore. Yet we've got all of these which show there was no public disorder issues in respect of our campaign and they're still there and I'm sure those are only the tip of the
02:56:31 sure those are only the tip of the iceberg. They're not all of them clearly because we don't for example have the note of Hagen driving my mom home. I I think the report was going to be published and u they decided I think
02:56:44 published and u they decided I think they were forced to have a meeting with us to tell us that this is what was coming out in the public domain that our
02:56:55 coming out in the public domain that our name was there but you know be reassured we did nothing wrong to you um
02:57:01 um you've touched upon a few topics so just going forward I just like to reassure that I'm going to go through one document and then we're going to um go through um the topic of the SCS and DAC John Greed and then I'll go on to the
02:57:18 John Greed and then I'll go on to the reporting in the incident where H&81 gave Yumville the the lift. So can we put up MPS0720946
02:57:23 please on the screen chair that's B6.
02:57:34 So this is a a file or briefing note for the SDS. Can we go to page eight? We've got cover sheet. Yes. Go to page eight. Um, and this is a briefing note by Detective Inspector Lambert titled SDS intelligence update September 1998.
02:57:56 Um, and woman um I says extremist involvement in the Steven Thomas campaign.
02:58:02 campaign. If we can look at page nine, the second paragraph.
02:58:11 So, I'm just going to read out the the the paragraph, but this there's two points that I want to focus on in relation to this um paragraph. So, at the time of preparing this this paper, RML Tilter who's 1881 is reporting another significant breakthrough for MFJ
02:58:25 another significant breakthrough for MFJ on Wednesday evening 2nd September. They cemented good liaison contact with sukde real wiki's real's mom mother and are now planning to assist her in mounting a
02:58:40 now planning to assist her in mounting a large-scale campaign against the police. It is important to emphasize here the extent to which the real case has the potential to cause police embarrassment
02:58:51 potential to cause police embarrassment on the same scale as the Lawrence case. Certainly so far as Mrs. s and the activists are concerned there are glaringly similar racist overtones between the police handling of both investigations.
02:59:02 investigations. Again, windmill tilt will be ideally positioned to monitor important developments in the months ahead. So before I go to two points, just taking that as a whole,
02:59:20 that as a whole, um Mr. Will, what would you like to say about the police surveillance on your family and the campaign given what's been put in this paragraph? I'm just reading it. I will focus on two sentences as well.
02:59:34 It's my good listen.
02:59:41 I don't remember
02:59:47 this because
02:59:56 We worked with everyone, you know. We didn't say you can't work with us as long as you understand
03:00:06 planning to see the mother. Well, we already So, what in particular are you asking? Sorry.
03:00:13 Sorry. So, let me focus on two points. Mhm. Um
03:00:21 on the fourth line it's it starts the sentence. It is important to emphasize here okay
03:00:26 okay the extent to which miss um the real's case has potential to cause police embarrassment on the same scale as a Lawrence case. So if I can ask you what are your views that the DI Lambert who
03:00:39 are your views that the DI Lambert who who authored this um report recognizes that your campaign has potential to cause police embarrassment.
03:00:50 I think it's in the police's mind in this report and others they refer to the case as being similar to the Lawrence case. There is a report in which they refer to this as the next Lawrence case. They talk about course of public inquiries.
03:01:04 course of public inquiries. Um and the reference to police embarrassment um is again it's a theme that's echoed through others of the um surveillance
03:01:22 through others of the um surveillance reports. Many of them seemed to focus on the fact that they were concerned that our case was continuing to shine the existing spotlight on the issues of incompetence and racism and misogyny within the police force that the Lawrence case had raised and other
03:01:34 Lawrence case had raised and other campaigns such as ours were continuing to highlight and keep in um in sight of the public. Um so I'm I think they hoped that those issues would die death but cases such as ours were
03:01:49 die death but cases such as ours were keeping that very much at the forefront and the reference to police embarrassment um I think was is basically this is a report going back to the police saying that um our campaign was impacting on the police's image. They had tried so
03:02:05 the police's image. They had tried so hard after the police Lawrence inquiry to try and manage that image, set up initiatives on paper um to show that they were doing everything to improve to tackle racism on an institutional basis.
03:02:25 tackle racism on an institutional basis. And our case was showing that even years after um Steven's murder, shortly after the um inquiry, the um first inquiry, those issues were still happening and I think that's what that report is talking about potential to cause police
03:02:36 about potential to cause police embarrassment on the same scale. This report is all about how do we manage the police's image post Lawrence and now we've got Ricky real and I think um it
03:02:51 we've got Ricky real and I think um it highlights why we were very much on the police's radar. It wasn't because we want to find what out what happened to Ricky Real which of course is the police's function. it was um there are similarities in terms of racist
03:03:05 similarities in terms of racist overtones between our invest our Ricky's case and the Lawrence case and that was something they were trying to manage their public image around at the time to convince um people that um the changes that they had promised to put in place post um the inquiry
03:03:21 post um the inquiry were put in place and working when they clearly weren't because of this potential for embarrassment continuing and I think What's glaringly obvious there is the what's not there is is is
03:03:33 there is the what's not there is is is important just as much as what's in that report which is there's nothing in that report that would justify this surveillance. There's no indication of public disorder on our part. Instead, this officer has chosen to report back on the potential of the case to
03:03:45 on the potential of the case to embarrass the police. There's nothing of public disorder in that report. So, you've covered both my points that I wanted to cover. So, I'm now going to move on to the next topic which is SCES. And
03:03:54 And I just want to say something here. I think the police themselves were aware that they were making mistakes and the same mistakes were exactly similar as
03:04:07 same mistakes were exactly similar as they had made in the Lawrence inquiry. I mean in the Lawrence case as far as um um I think they were they felt threatened by us and and from the public as well because it was not us. It were lots of people saying that these case the two cases are similar and that they
03:04:19 the two cases are similar and that they should be investigated. And I think the police were doing everything and and as a result we are here today to um prevent more damage done to them. I was a damage limitation exercise
03:04:36 limitation exercise and I think the timing is important because in September the PCA report the PCA investigation was nearing its end. We were waiting the publication of the results that was very much in our forefront of our mind and the police. And around this time in September there
03:04:48 And around this time in September there had been a great deal of media interest in the case. We'd met various high-profile politicians at the highest levels to try and um ensure that Ricky's
03:05:00 levels to try and um ensure that Ricky's case was investigated properly. Um those events, those campaign events, those meetings with police officials were p, you know, publicly known. That wasn't things those w things we did behind closed doors and that was all happening in the leadup to this to this report.
03:05:18 in the leadup to this to this report. Um, the fact that we were being vocal and we were being visible about the police's failings means it's meant unfortunately we've ended up in in these reports for no other reason than the fact that we were um calling the police out for being incompetent and racist
03:05:30 out for being incompetent and racist and then you get a report like this.
03:05:41 and then you get a report like this. I think um these all these um failures were reported in the PCA report which is still kept under lock and key after 28 years. We have campaigned had meetings with uh police commissioner and everyone trying to make sure that the report is released. So how come
03:05:58 the report is released. So how come police can learn lessons if they are not told about the mistakes they have made? So it was very important for us to release the report. So I was given a copy of the report but was told not to share it with everyone. I can't even discuss the report with Tish or my
03:06:12 discuss the report with Tish or my husband. That was the undertaking I had to give. So it's still kept under lock and key.
03:06:14 and key. I think
03:06:14 I think so the failures are there. I think that's in keeping with the the culture of secret secretism that we've we've seen around s special branch. Um also just on that last sentence again wind windmill
03:06:29 last sentence again wind windmill tilter will be ideally positioned to monitor important developments in the months ahead that that's not collateral. talking about being ideally positioned is is a very deliberate um observation and recommendation in
03:06:46 um observation and recommendation in this report. Um that's not collateral. That involves strategy that involves planning that involves deliberate decision making the the the complete opposite of collateral. And the sentence says we'll be ideally positioned to
03:06:58 says we'll be ideally positioned to monitor important developments in the months ahead. Now that's in the context of our case being the next Steven Lawrence case. And what that tells me is a lot about the motivation behind the monitoring. They say this is the next
03:07:13 monitoring. They say this is the next Steven Lawrence. We will be we will um monitor the important developments in the months ahead. That tells me there was planning to monitor our case because we were a threat because we were the next Steven Lawrence case. It tells me
03:07:26 next Steven Lawrence case. It tells me there was planning involved because they talk about positioning themselves and monitoring. And they talk about time scales. they talk about months ahead. So there is nothing collateral about that at all. I think at the same time my MP
03:07:41 at all. I think at the same time my MP was asking about a public inquiry and he said I think it was in one of the newspapers and he told us as well that there are similar mistakes being made and that there should be a public inquiry and people need to learn the police need to learn that they can't
03:07:59 police need to learn that they can't keep on making the same mistakes again and again and and to um I I I mean I read the last line as um H81 one was told by his bosses or even a comm you know police commission or whatever here it is the budget you do
03:08:13 or whatever here it is the budget you do what you want make sure you destroy that campaign make sure you do whatever you can to you know sort of do whatever you want want to to destroy that campaign and cause as much damage as you can to the family
03:08:24 the family that's how it came across to me so that's why he needs to be here to answer our questions
03:08:36 answer our questions our events that um talked about police racism, talked about Lawrence case, the lessons to be learned and how those hadn't been learned and we'd been failed again in our case. They were public meetings. These weren't discussions behind closed doors. Um you don't need SDS officers to come in and to those
03:08:51 SDS officers to come in and to those meetings and report back. Those were public meetings. It didn't require undercover surveillance. It didn't justify undercover surveillance. None of none of the reporting did. Um, so why they had to monitor through undercover through spying on us, I don't know.
03:09:03 through spying on us, I don't know. Everything we did, we did lawfully, we did openly, public meetings, if we were doing um a vigil or a picket, we had to give notice to people. We did one
03:09:14 give notice to people. We did one outside New Scotland Yard, we had to give them notice. Everything was done openly. Um, so there was no there was no need for this monitoring to be done covertly in the way it has and is is addressed in that report.
03:09:27 addressed in that report. Can I now move on to the next topic which is um SDS and the with DAC John K. Can document MPS0748390
03:09:40 be put on the screen please chair that is at tab B7.
03:09:59 Oh yeah. So um again just to put it in context um DAC
03:10:03 DAC John Gre was the um in charge of the second investigation and that was between the 1st of November 98 and the 12th of March 99. Um you can see here this is special branch note dated 22nd of December
03:10:19 branch note dated 22nd of December 1998. So the second investigation's already started and the first note is from um DCI HN58
03:10:32 and the first note is from um DCI HN58 to DCS black which states so M I'm going to read out the statement and then ask you a few questions. Um the minute states I understand you requested from DIHN53
03:10:38 DIHN53 a summary of the state of play of leftwing involvement in Steven Law's inquiry.
03:10:48 inquiry. The attached note has been compiled from a secret and reliable source which must be protected um in black as a similar intelligence report has been sent to C squad. The following two minutes are from DCS Colin
03:11:00 following two minutes are from DCS Colin Black to commander SB. If I can focus on the last minute. It's
03:11:12 It's it's a handwritten note from coin black to SB and it says in your absence I should I shared this with ACSO. If you agree I shall so likewise with Mr. Grieve and this is dated the 6th of January 1998. And we can see over the
03:11:24 January 1998. And we can see over the words of Commander SB it says agreed. Thank you. Um, and the attached note is at page three. So, if you just quickly
03:11:35 at page three. So, if you just quickly look at page three, just to get an idea of what the note is.
03:11:47 And this is a special branch note dated to 22nd of December 1998 titled leftwing activities relating to the Lawrence
03:11:59 activities relating to the Lawrence inquiry. Um, and we can see at paragraph two, Wiki is mentioned. So it's it is a note that focuses that um refers to um the Ricky will campaign. So the questions I want to ask you was how do you feel and again um Tish has
03:12:13 how do you feel and again um Tish has touched upon this. How do you feel about the liaison between Ets and John Brie during the second investigation?
03:12:39 I think for one it shows us that G Reeves was involved in 1998. That was when we that was prior to the inquest and it was when we were told
03:12:54 inquest and it was when we were told that this new kind of shiny super duper task force led by Griev was going to come in with fresh eyes and reinvestigate Ricky's death following the botched first investigation by Moffett. This shows that despite the
03:13:06 Moffett. This shows that despite the assurances we were given um in the 2014 meeting
03:13:08 meeting um that there was no sharing of information between special branch and the Met. There was a line of communication specifically set up and information was being shared and it
03:13:19 information was being shared and it concerns me what impact that had on Ricky's investigation that we were told as I say was being done with fresh eyes. Um
03:13:29 Um and it concerns me that that that team that officer had only half an eye to Rick's investigation and the other half was involved in
03:13:41 and the other half was involved in special branch and SDS activities. Is there anything else you would want to know from the um the MPS the Metropolitan Police about this liaison between SDS and um John Griev?
03:13:58 between SDS and um John Griev? Yeah. Everything. All we know is what's in this report. Yeah.
03:14:02 Yeah. We probably know 1% of what's out there. We want to know who made this decision. Why was this decision made? What information was passed um from SDS to John Griev? What information was passed back from John
03:14:17 information was passed back from John Grieve to SDS? Was he was there a dual role there? Um we want to know what other reports were there. What impact did that have on the live investigation? did the second investigation into
03:14:29 did the second investigation into Ricky's how how far down the chain in the second investigation was the
03:14:40 the second investigation was the knowledge that this reporting was going on. How how how down the chain Ricky's second investigation did this go? Um what
03:14:41 what records from the SDS activity were in the investigation files and would have been seen by the investigation team or the PCA.
03:14:50 the PCA. Um, what how were decisions in the live investigation influenced potentially by what was going on with the SDS officers?
03:15:02 what was going on with the SDS officers? What decision logs are there in the live investigation files that tell us why decisions were made? And h how else are we going to know how what impact this reporting had on that investigation? And I mean, we were told this was a full
03:15:14 I mean, we were told this was a full throttle investigation, but clearly was there were other things going on behind the scenes that we didn't know of. And what impact did that have on how that
03:15:25 what impact did that have on how that investigation unfolded on on on the on the suggestion by the second investigation that we don't have any more information? This is just a tragic accident.
03:15:32 accident. Um, we know nothing. I I think what concerns me is that the first investigation carried out by by Mr. Morett continued while m uh John
03:15:50 Mr. Morett continued while m uh John Greece was also investigating. So there must have been communication between them as well from the first investigation to the second one and what information was Mr. Morett passing to John Greavves. Was John Greavves carrying out the investigation with an
03:16:05 carrying out the investigation with an open mind? Was he relying on also on the reports that were passed to him or by him to um you know we know that HN HN81 was having twice weekly meetings with
03:16:16 was having twice weekly meetings with his handlers and some information went as far as special branch and even to the uh police commissioner. So this is
03:16:29 uh police commissioner. So this is really um a concern for me as well. So did they the second investigation did they carry out a proper investigation or did were they biased because of the chain how he went through. So um you know we haven't got justice and that
03:16:44 know we haven't got justice and that speaks volumes of how the investigation was carried out and and you know would this suggest that there was a one-way communication from SDS into the Met to grieve but could there have been could there have been
03:16:56 there have been could there have been surveillance information that had been obtained by SDS that could have actually benefited Ricky's investigation if they had their ear to the ground and all
03:17:07 had their ear to the ground and all intelligence is good intelligence. Could there have been information that could have benefited Ricky's case that we don't know about that was never followed up on?
03:17:11 up on? We don't know. After the second investigation, um, DAC grieve maintained contact with your family.
03:17:22 family. What impression did you get for why he wanted to stay in contact? I don't know. I still don't have the answer because um, I met him at the second phase of the inquiry.
03:17:37 second phase of the inquiry. Um I met him briefly before that. I think I was coming out of the BBC studios and he was going in. Hi. Hi. And then he said to me, he said, "I must meet you at the inquiry." I said, "Yes, whenever." I think uh we met him in
03:17:48 whenever." I think uh we met him in Sureshi's office meeting and he said he'll do everything. He made lots of promises to do this to do that and in fact the second investigation did nothing just a paper exercise. and I
03:18:06 nothing just a paper exercise. and I think it was impacted by the SDS report. Um
03:18:08 Um I'm now going to move just on that surveillance report though. It troubles me how they talk about um
03:18:16 um banners
03:18:26 banners um people remaining under the Grover banner. I think that's dehumanizing and I think I think that's so disrespectful to the victims of this surveillance to talk about them being under different banners. None of us have ever thought
03:18:37 banners. None of us have ever thought made conscious decisions about I'll go under this banner, I'll go under that banner.
03:18:41 banner. Um that's not how that's not how these campaigns
03:18:43 campaigns came into being. That's not how they ran. And it just tells you how these officers were operating and reporting.
03:18:55 officers were operating and reporting. It was clinical. It was cold. Um and it was it was focusing on division. It was focusing not on public disorder. It was focusing on management again. How are the how how do we manage these
03:19:08 are the how how do we manage these campaigns? Right? These campaigns are running under this banner. These campaigns are running under this banner. It's all about management. Um and it it's appalling that that kind of language could be used by um officers who were undercover in such close
03:19:19 who were undercover in such close vicinity and in the confidence of individuals like like our family. Um
03:19:26 Um you've addressed a few of the reports that you see, but it's right to say that um Mrs. Will, you provided a a a document annex one to your statement. So that's UCPI 3847 AI8.
03:19:40 that's UCPI 3847 AI8. And and in that schedule you've actually um commented on on the reports that have been provided to you.
03:19:54 been provided to you. Which one are we talking about? So UCPI 38547 A I8.
03:20:05 So it's about this is a shadow provided by yourself where you've provided comments on the reports you received.
03:20:25 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You can I'm now going to move on to um so you most of these reports are by HN81. I'm going to focus now on two involves two events involving 1881 and the first one being um the occasion where he gave
03:20:38 one being um the occasion where he gave you a lift home. Can document MPS0738122
03:20:49 be put on screen please that's at B29 let me see which one so can we go to sorry what's the number MPS0738122
03:21:04 could you tell us what page of the shed um our schedule page two so it's it's behind tab B29 and it's going Second page.
03:21:23 So this is a meeting which H& 81 attended which sets out his involvements with justice campaigns in which he provides an account of when he gives his lift. So can we focus on the last paragraph on first on page two? Yes.
03:21:39 So it says, "I got a phone call from Karen."
03:21:40 Karen." Yeah.
03:21:45 Yeah. They met up with Suk Dave Real in a McDonald's. I think I was the driver. It was the leaders of MFJ who were trying to use Mrs. Real to lead the campaign. I felt sorry for Mrs. Real and I just sat there. At the end of the meeting, I was
03:21:56 there. At the end of the meeting, I was asked to drive Mrs. Real home and there was general chitchat between us. I felt guilty. It was a difficult journey. She invited me to meet in to meet her
03:22:07 invited me to meet in to meet her husband. I said no. If she had known I was a police officer, she would not have invited me in. I was my own arbiter of what was right and wrong about the situation. I didn't exploit the
03:22:22 situation. I didn't exploit the situation. I not the beast portrayed by the media.
03:22:32 You have addressed um H81's account in your witness statement at paragraph 290 to 300. But I wanted just to um explore further with you. Sorry, could you just repeat those paragraphs in the 290 to 300? Thank you.
03:22:53 Thank you.
03:23:02 Do you recall um an event of having a meeting in McDonald's with MFJ? Um I went to meetings, but I'm not sure. I may have attended it. Yeah, I think I probably did.
03:23:22 Yeah, I think I probably did. Um and in this statement, we can see that um H81 states, "I was asked to drive Mrs. Rule home." Yeah.
03:23:28 Yeah. Do you agree with that? No, I didn't ask him to give me a lift. Um,
03:23:31 Um, and and how do you feel about finding out that um H&81 gave you a lift home? I don't have the words to describe it. I really don't. I felt sick, humiliated.
03:23:43 really don't. I felt sick, humiliated. He took advantage of my vulnerability. He was writing reports that u of no was no use to the inquiry but telling but in the reports was mentioned that I was
03:23:55 the reports was mentioned that I was very distressed. I had health problems. My health was deteriorating. So he clearly knew I was vulnerable at the time
03:24:01 time and I didn't ask him. He
03:24:12 used this excuse to gain more information about from me about the campaign. Uh,
03:24:33 every time I think of this, I see Sarah Ed Everett in front of my eyes. And that's the one thing that doesn't let me sleep at night. She was in a police car,
03:24:46 She was in a police car, unmarked police car. And I think I was in a police car with a with a police officer who pretended to be a supporter of this campaign.
03:25:02 supporter of this campaign. Why did he not tell me who he was? He used
03:25:13 I don't know what does this you want to carry on.
03:25:24 I think this report in particular has been extremely distressing in particular for my mom, for all of us as a family because we weren't there. Um,
03:25:32 my mom didn't know he was an undercover officer. He knew he was an undercover officer. He knew he was in a position of
03:25:46 officer. He knew he was in a position of authority. My mom doesn't ask for lifts. I have to I have to insist that she she gets a taxi, otherwise she'll just put herself on the train. She doesn't ask for lifts. So, I can say with some certainty she wouldn't have have asked for a lift that day. And he he knowing he was an officer didn't have to give her a lift.
03:26:00 didn't have to give her a lift. Certainly wasn't asked for, but he made a conscious decision to do that. And again, that's not collateral. He wasn't in a car with other people. He chose specifically to drive my mom home and
03:26:13 specifically to drive my mom home and she was on her own. No one else was with her. She was in the car on her own with him. And that was a conscious decision on his part. And we've heard time and time again and we've read in the reports that, you know, all intelligence is good intelligence. He tries to palm this off as chitchat
03:26:25 as chitchat but there's no report there's no contemporaneous record or not telling us what he discussed and bearing in mind this you know all intelligence is good intelligence I think we can reasonably assume
03:26:37 assume that he was intelligence gather gathering during that drive because that
03:26:51 gathering during that drive because that was you know that we've we've heard time and time again that was um that was you know every interaction we've seen the reports, every interaction, even the smallest interactions we've seen, for example, are being reported. Mrs. Real was crying, she was upset, she passed on her number. Um, so why is this why isn't there a
03:27:04 Um, so why is this why isn't there a record for this? Why is it missing? Why haven't we seen it? We've only got this officer's word for it, and he's not here.
03:27:12 here. Um, and
03:27:18 Um, and he could have come into the home. How do we know he didn't? Again, we've only got his word for it that he didn't come in. But what he did to is he took advantage of a woman who was
03:27:30 took advantage of a woman who was vulnerable who'd been upset at a public meeting talking about her dead son and how the police had failed her. And he, a police officer, one in the same
03:27:41 police officer, one in the same organization that she was on a platform talking about having turned her into a victim, made a conscious decision to drive her home on her own to her home address. So, he now has her home address, know where she lives. Um, and
03:27:55 address, know where she lives. Um, and there's nothing clutter about that. That that's a series of conscious decisions from the time he spoke to her that he offered her a lift. He drove her all the way home and dropped her home and may or may not have come into the home. Um, and if that's not targeted surveillance
03:28:08 if that's not targeted surveillance as opposed to collateral, I don't know what is. He was on his own with my mom. And my mom, you know, I lived with her for many years after this and I stay at her house
03:28:22 years after this and I stay at her house sometimes with my children. She wakes up in her sleep screaming and it's it's kind of blood curdling and it's it wakes my my my nephew up. He lives with her and he's he's 7, eight now. And she
03:28:34 and he's he's 7, eight now. And she screams in her sleep, but she doesn't know she's doing it. And one of us has to run in and wake her up. And she says in you can hear in her asleep she's saying she's talking about eyes. And when I wake her up she's still half
03:28:46 when I wake her up she's still half asleep and she's talking about eyes following her. And that that's the impact of this. It's enduring. It's it's not going to go away. And it doesn't impact just her. It's impacted generations. You know her, me, her
03:29:01 generations. You know her, me, her grandson are being impact still being impacted by the actions of those officers
03:29:07 officers almost 25 years ago. And I mean
03:29:21 he had boundaries, you know, he didn't remain within those boundaries and and this was a conscious decision and he took that choice away from my mom and he put her in a position of vulnerability. When she talks about Sarah ever Sarah Evro, she talks about she what she means is being in a position of vulnerability with an
03:29:32 position of vulnerability with an officer. She didn't know he was an officer and she was alone and anything could have happened and we don't know what happened because we don't have the officer and we don't have the record.
03:29:45 officer and we don't have the record. And I I think the inquiry can reasonably assume from this that this this record which shows that there was direct targeting is missing that this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of
03:29:56 the tip of the iceberg in terms of direct surveillance on my mom and our family
03:30:00 family because we were we were reassured uh in 2014 that um it was collateral. It doesn't um you know we didn't have direct surveillance on you but there it
03:30:16 direct surveillance on you but there it is. There's proof of that and it should be a public knowledge. It should be addressed to public. probably should be made aware of it that what the Hearn report or whatever the police were saying that no justice
03:30:28 police were saying that no justice families were targeted or no direct intrusion did not take place it took place in our case. So how many more other families were affected by this?
03:30:44 other families were affected by this? If I can just pause there for a moment chair I'm minded about the time. I think for the benefit of the transcribers as well as for you and your daughter, we better have a break for lunch. Thank you. Um, is an hour long enough? Yeah, fine. Thank you.
03:30:57 Yeah, fine. Thank you. Good. Then we'll start again at 10. Thank you.
04:35:54 Good afternoon, everybody. Usual afternoon announcement first, I'm afraid. Um the uh proceedings today are being uh broadcast, but only after a 10-minute delay. Uh those with mobile
04:36:07 10-minute delay. Uh those with mobile devices may use them to speak of what is going on in the hearing room. uh but only uh once 10 minutes have has elapsed
04:36:18 only uh once 10 minutes have has elapsed since the event that they're describing. They may not be used for recording or photography. Thank you,
04:36:25 Mrs. Will.
04:36:30 Before the break, we were on the topic of HM81 giving you a lift. I have a few more questions on that, but just let you
04:36:41 more questions on that, but just let you know going forward. Um after that I have just two or three short topics left um before I am done with my questions. I just wanted to clarify one point um in would you would you like the document back up or UK? Yeah, if you can please.
04:36:52 Yeah, if you can please. Sure. Can we have document MPS0738122
04:36:58 and chair once it's B29
04:37:10 and can we focus on the last paragraph on page
04:37:32 I just wanted to clarify. Um we can see on on the fourth um line of
04:37:45 we can see on on the fourth um line of of this paragraph um H&H say states I was asked to drive Mrs. Will home. Were you aware if anyone from MFG had asked um HN81 to give you a lift? Another way. Okay. Um we can take that um document down. Um
04:38:01 HN81 has provided a statement um CH it's not in the bundle but um I'm I'm referring to one paragraph for the record it is MPS0748738
04:38:24 um at page 74 paragraph 239 Mrs. I'm going to read out the the paragraph and then ask you a question about it. So, paragraph 2239 of 1881's statement, he states, "I still consider that all intelligence is good." Notwithstanding that there were certain situations which I found
04:38:41 were certain situations which I found uncomfortable, such as when I drove Mrs. Sukde home following her meeting with the MFJ.
04:38:43 the MFJ. I would have discussed this with my handler at the time, but I do not recall what was said. What would you like to say in regard to
04:38:56 What would you like to say in regard to H&81 describing all intelligence is good?
04:39:05 I think it just shows that nothing no interaction was off limits including the interaction um of taking mom home and that was quite targeted and deliberate as a means of getting intelligence.
04:39:18 I'm now going to move on to the second event which I wanted to um cover with
04:39:32 event which I wanted to um cover with H&1. Um if document UCPI 38 548 can be shown, this is your statement. Um page 20 paragraph 84
04:39:38 and ch AI7.
04:39:57 Even at the time there were whispers of police officers being present at these meetings, including our memorial lectures held at Guild Hall in Kingston. I do not believe these whispers at the time as I thought I was not doing anything wrong and so I would not
04:40:14 anything wrong and so I would not receive any attention from the police. I now understand that a UC may have been present at 1. And can we look at Fortnite 36?
04:40:24 Yeah. So for first six states, according to my brother,
04:40:25 brother, privacy, Hagen attended one of Ricky's memorial lectures and spoke at length to privacy. He was apparently asked lots of questions about Ricky, his family, and
04:40:40 questions about Ricky, his family, and the campaign. This does not appear in in the disclosure. I have seen um and you go on to say I exhibited the photo of patient 81 taken which my brother said it was the person who recons at the meeting.
04:40:48 meeting. wanted to ask what was your reaction when your brother told you that Hagen was present and spoke to him?
04:40:59 was present and spoke to him? Um, I was sent a photograph of Hagen and um, as I said, my brother was heavily involved in the campaign. I showed him the photo and he recognized
04:41:11 showed him the photo and he recognized him straight away. He said he's the man who was sitting at one of the memorial lectures and uh asking him lots of questions about my family, about Ricky, what he was like and about the campaign, what we were doing and he said um he
04:41:25 what we were doing and he said um he didn't think much about it at that time. and he thought this is one of the sporters who was um you know in the memorial lecture but it turned out to be even even our memorial lectures were not safe even I don't know what he was
04:41:40 safe even I don't know what he was trying to find there but why did he want to know about this I think in terms of how he felt he felt that it was targeted again because it was that was personal targeting
04:41:50 targeting it wasn't by chance he was there um and also it showed us that not all the records have been disclosed because there's no record for that event and also there was no public disorder at
04:42:02 and also there was no public disorder at the memorial lecture so I'm not sure why he would have been there.
04:42:08 Um I'm done with the document so he can be taken down.
04:42:18 I'm now going to move on to um the next topic which is um apologies letters you received from the Metropolitan Police. you in your statement um you refer to a letter dated to 2nd of January 2016. Which page?
04:42:32 Which page? Um so in your statement you deal page 56 paragraph 237.
04:42:46 Yeah. So you received a letter of apology and um at pagraph 237 you describe it as in inadequate.
04:42:57 in inadequate. Yeah.
04:43:06 Yeah. Since then you received a further letter from the metropolitan police. Um and that is and can we put up UCPI 39435
04:43:08 39435 chair that is at tab AI21.
04:43:15 And this is a letter dated the 31st of October
04:43:17 October 2025 from John Savile who's a deputy assistant commissioner for the MP and police.
04:43:37 police. Um this letter first sets out the the um apology and open statement for for this phase. Um but if I can focus on um the paragraph before last
04:43:47 which states we note that the fourthcoming phases of transfery of the inquiry through the summer u through to summer 2026 will be critical in terms of further evidence
04:43:59 critical in terms of further evidence from key individuals including former senior officers managers of the SCF undercover officers and undercover officers deployed at the time. In light of the fact that further important evidence is still to be heard, it was
04:44:14 evidence is still to be heard, it was considered premature to issue a full and personal apology at this stage. Um,
04:44:18 Um, how did you feel about after reading this letter?
04:44:34 it's difficult to describe. We've had apologies before. Nothing's changed. We had an apology from the police before um 2014.
04:44:37 um 2014. Nothing's changed. And we found out afterwards that the information we were given in 2014 in the event was misleading. So,
04:44:48 So, disappointed.
04:44:55 They were giving apologies when they were found out that they were um
04:44:59 um you know all this thing was going on. So it was just like a piece of paper that here we messed up. Here's your apology. Quite closed.
04:45:13 In the first letter, you found it inadequate. How do you find this letter? It's the same. Um there's been no public apology. The record hasn't been set straight. um it's another piece of paper and it leads families like us to worry that in a
04:45:27 families like us to worry that in a couple of years are we now going to find out as we have all the way through this process of 28 years that something we were told now wasn't quite right. Things
04:45:39 were told now wasn't quite right. Things need to change and things need to be put right and until that happens an apology is meaningless. It's the action. It's the lessons that are learned. It's a change in behavior that matters to us and to all the people that still contact us to say that what happened to us is still happening. Until that stops, this doesn't change anything.
04:45:53 I'm now going to move on to my last topic. Um, and it's in relation to impact. Mrs. Will, you've addressed impact and how the police actions have not only impacted your health, your family, and the justice before Ricky and
04:46:06 family, and the justice before Ricky and it has been covered throughout today. Is there anything else you would like to say about how the police surveillance has impacted you and your family?
04:46:21 you and your family? Has impacted the whole family, not just me. Um the way the news were broken and also the spying of the police still continues and um it has impacted me pretty badly. I have been in and out of hospitals. In
04:46:33 I have been in and out of hospitals. In fact, I signed my statement over while I was in hospital
04:46:44 was in hospital and uh the fact that um a police officer disguised himself as a supporter of the campaign and drove me home uh is just something I don't want to think about, but it gives me nightmares. It's um
04:47:00 It's um come on over with the family. It's just I don't know how to describe it, but I am broken. I'm not the same person anymore. Um I don't trust people. And one of the uh report about 81 shows that I I invited him in. That's what I
04:47:13 that I I invited him in. That's what I was like before. I trusted everyone and I just used to come home or you know talk to people. I don't trust anyone anymore. He's destroyed me. This inquiry and all the revelations of what was
04:47:25 and all the revelations of what was going on has destroyed my life. I'm not the same person anymore.
04:47:33 I've covered all the topics I need need to cover, but is there anything else you would like the inquiry to know?
04:47:40 Oh, good.
04:47:50 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. Have a look. Um, are we to have the usual break for rule 10 questions? Yes.
04:47:53 Yes. Yes. Is there going to be any re-examination? Yes.
04:47:57 Yes. Yes. It's going to be down. Yes.
04:48:02 Yes. Um we have a process here under which if people have questions that they want council of the inquiry to ask then they have the opportunity to raise them with them. Now um we'll have another break. It's likely to be 15 minutes I think.
04:48:16 Thank you.
05:04:17 Yes. I have one question one question could document MPS 04 0748390
05:04:26 and chair that's um B7 can put on the screen page two
05:04:33 could we zoom into the second paragraph
05:04:40 this is a special branch now dated 22nd 7 1998 we've come across hostess earlier. Um just to paraphrase the paragraph, this is about MFJ um organizing marches. I I just want to
05:04:56 um organizing marches. I I just want to focus on the um last sentence starts on the third line from the bottom which says if support is not realized then the march will simply become an MFJ event
05:05:07 march will simply become an MFJ event which is what Grover and in brackets in private is hoping.
05:05:18 Did you ever get the impression that um um Sish Graver was more focused in promoting MFJ's um agenda? I think it seems to have been a running theme that Sesh was having private
05:05:31 theme that Sesh was having private conversations with MFJ and that was not the reality at all. Sesh was 100% focused on our campaign and we were leading that campaign. Sesh was Sesh was the coordinator.
05:05:46 the coordinator. Um and we made we made the decisions and everything we did we did off our own back peacefully. We didn't coordinate. So Sesh wasn't having those private conversations. Absolutely 100% not. Um and so I don't I question the the
05:06:01 and so I don't I question the the purpose of the of what said in the note because it's simply not true. Thank you. Um I don't have any further questions. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thank you, Mrs. Real. Miss Real, I've got a few
05:06:18 Mrs. Real. Miss Real, I've got a few questions on some brief topics for you. Um, firstly, information sharing about your campaign within the Metropolitan Police Service. Um, if I could just have up MPS 072 0946.
05:06:37 This is a document that you've already been taken to. Um, it's a briefing note that was prepared by HN10, Robert Lambert, um, one of HN81's managers and
05:06:52 Lambert, um, one of HN81's managers and you were previously taken to page nine. If we can just briefly go back to that and the second paragraph there
05:07:00 and this is the paragraph that indicates um the SCS is concern about potential police
05:07:16 is concern about potential police embarrassment arising from your case um and the um implication that HN81 David Hagen um was well placed to monitor developments in relation into that campaign. Um if we can just then go back to the top um and page two of that
05:07:29 to the top um and page two of that document and we can see a little bit more about the way in which that briefing note was shared. We see at the top here um that there's a note dated the 3rd of September 1998
05:07:41 note dated the 3rd of September 1998 from manager detective chief inspector HN58
05:07:46 HN58 um indicating an intention to to share this note more widely within special branch. But then if we can go down to page three
05:07:58 and we see there in response um a note dated the 14th of September 1998 from Colin Black who was the ops
05:08:11 from Colin Black who was the ops commander in special branch at the time. Um and his handwritten response states, "Thank you. These papers confirm that SCS is as usual well positioned at the focal crisis point of policing in London. I'm aware that DI Richard Walton of CO24 receives ad hoc off therecord
05:08:27 of CO24 receives ad hoc off therecord briefings from the SCS. I've reiterated to him that it's essential that knowledge of the operation goes no further. I'd not wish for him to receive anything on paper. I've established a
05:08:39 anything on paper. I've established a correspondence route DAC grieve via DS McDow formerly of SO12 and opened an SP file or SP file
05:08:55 and opened an SP file or SP file potentially for copy correspondence with CO24. It will of course fall to C squad to provide the bulk of that material. They'll undoubtedly consult SDS as appropriate. So, we can see from this document and the notes appended to it um that not only does there appear to have been a a particular concern within the SDS about
05:09:08 particular concern within the SDS about embarrassment to the force arising from your campaign um and a desire to keep an eye on that campaign, but also um that somebody very senior within special
05:09:20 somebody very senior within special branch indicated um that this sort of material about your campaign and others
05:09:32 material about your campaign and others was to be shared um with people like DAC Grieve in the task force and Richard Walton um and that there was a particular desire um for those briefings not to be done on paper. So just taking
05:09:44 not to be done on paper. So just taking all of that into account and the way in which that information was shared and the parent commitment secrecy um do you have any comment um particularly on that part of the document?
05:10:04 I think um firstly
05:10:06 firstly SDS saying that they wouldn't share knowledge outside SB this demonstrates
05:10:18 knowledge outside SB this demonstrates that it was being shared um and at quite high level so officers at quite high level um were aware not only of the information sharing but were actually facilitating it um and the their
05:10:29 facilitating it um and the their emphasis on there not being a paper trail I think goes to the fact that they knew that their actions were not justified. They knew that this
05:10:41 were not justified. They knew that this was not collateral damage that this was a very um deliberate orchestrated chain of decision making here. Um and they knew it wasn't justified. They knew it wasn't lawful. they knew we weren't
05:10:56 it wasn't lawful. they knew we weren't any threat to public disorder. Um, and if they didn't know it, Griev who was part of this communication um network who was working openly with us knew it knew it because he was running the
05:11:08 knew it because he was running the second investigation into Ricky's death. Um, and because they knew that, they wanted to keep it secret. It was their intention that this would never ever come to light. And on a very similar theme, um, if I
05:11:23 And on a very similar theme, um, if I can just put a further document to you and that has the reference number MPS0748392.
05:11:32 This is another special branch note. Um, and if we can just go down to page six,
05:11:45 it should say this was a note written by members of the SCS and dated the 10th of September 1998. Um, but if you can just see at the bottom of this page at paragraph seven under the title, the Justice for Ricky Real campaign,
05:11:58 Real campaign, it reads, "This campaign surrounds the death of an Asian youth whom his supporters believe was the victim of a racist attack. As previously stated, Sesh Grover is the spokesman and has not been slow in drawing parallels with the Lawrence inquiry, claiming Real's death
05:12:16 Lawrence inquiry, claiming Real's death shows up further proof of police racism. Suk Deriel has appeared as invited speaker at S SWP organized public meetings concerning the inquiry and has gained a measure of publicity from both the local and national media. The campaign plan to march on Kingston
05:12:32 campaign plan to march on Kingston police station on 14th of October 1998 and Miss Mrs. Real intends going on hunger strike from the 19th to 21st of October. Mrs. Real also hopes to be invited to address the inquiry but is
05:12:46 invited to address the inquiry but is awaiting their decision. So we see there there's quite a bit of information um both about your public speaking commitments um a plan for a march plan for a hunger strike and your intentions to participate in the Steven Lawrence inquiry.
05:13:01 inquiry. If we can go then to page two which is the top of that briefing note.
05:13:11 And then if we can zoom in on the heading, the Steven Lawrence Campaign, Associated Organizations, and the text underneath, perfect. Um, we see there in italics
05:13:19 italics that it states, "This note is produced for the information of the Commissioner of Police, DAC Griev, and Superintendent Thornton. It contains secret and
05:13:30 Thornton. It contains secret and delicate source material." So that suggests that information about your campaign plans, speaking engagements, etc.,
05:13:45 etc., um was provided not only to people like DAC Griev um but also the commissioner himself.
05:13:48 himself. Um similarly, do you have any response to that document?
05:14:01 And
05:14:08 I see that the information was provided to all of these people. Um I will ask Tish because I'm too angry to do address this. But
05:14:22 I'm too angry to do address this. But one thing clearly makes sense is that we had um vto or demonstration as you call
05:14:34 had um vto or demonstration as you call it outside the Scotland yard at one time and we were uh asking to see um the commissioner. I think that was Mr. condom at the time and he refused to see us and uh you know we continued and he said
05:14:48 and uh you know we continued and he said well I'll see you but only for 4 minutes so this rings a bell he was already being told of what was going on so there was no need that's why he didn't meet us
05:14:59 was no need that's why he didn't meet us I just again it just shows that information was being shared
05:15:09 information was being shared outside of SDS across the highest levels and we had at various times met various um commissioners of the police all had correspondence with them and all the while asking for fresh inquiries and all the while um this was going on um and again that assurance that that
05:15:20 again that assurance that that information wasn't being shared out special branch clearly incorrect that assurance given to us in July 2014 was made knowing that it was incorrect
05:15:31 made knowing that it was incorrect and and just on that assurance and the evidence you've already given um about the meeting that took place in 2014 Um there is actually a document which
05:15:44 there is actually a document which records minutes of that meeting. If we could just turn to that. It's at MPS 0738102.
05:15:51 And I just had a couple of questions for you on um Met's approach to communication with the family and the accuracy of assurances that you were given.
05:16:10 Sorry, is it on my You should be able to see it on the screen and we can we can zoom into relevant parts if that helps. Yeah.
05:16:13 Yeah. Um and this is titled the brief points of the meeting constituency office for John McDonald MP dated the 18th of July 2014. And I think Miss Real, this is the document or the meeting that you
05:16:26 document or the meeting that you referred to earlier in your evidence. Is that right? It is. Yes. Thank you. And this is when the Met told you that as a family or campaign um you'd been subject to some degree of undercover surveillance. Yeah.
05:16:42 Can see there at the top attendees are listed. Um you're both obviously included in that list and then from the Met we see that DSU Kradic um and a redacted DC were also in attendance to represent the force.
05:16:55 attendance to represent the force. Now if we can just go through some of the information that you were given in that meeting. Um firstly back to page
05:17:06 that meeting. Um firstly back to page one in the second substantive paragraph. So the one that starts DSURDIC explained. Yeah.
05:17:17 It says that DSURIC explained that Ricky Real's family had never been the subject of an SCS operation and had never been targeted.
05:17:23 And then if we go slightly further on in the paragraph, the information was held by special branch and not shared within the Metropolitan Police Service. Now, I think you alluded to this briefly
05:17:39 think you alluded to this briefly earlier, Miss Real. Um, but knowing all you know now, was that an accurate assurance from the Mets? Um, that was very far from accurate. We've just seen from the reports you've shown that not only was it shared in the
05:17:50 shown that not only was it shared in the Met, but it was shared up to the highest levels within the Met. Turning then to um the paragraph second from the bottom of this page that starts DSRock explained.
05:18:02 DSRock explained. So you were told that to access intelligence reporting you can make a subject access request.
05:18:13 subject access request. But then third line up says the purpose was to reassure the family that they were not the subject of infiltration or undercover activity. Um again do you consider that to have been an accurate statement?
05:18:26 statement? Absolutely not. We were subject of both of those and more. And then page two, the second paragraph
05:18:37 starts DS Ukratic explained.
05:18:46 So you're told there about a number of intelligence reports that I don't think you had access to at the time.
05:18:54 And then about twothirds of the way down it says he DS Ukrradock went on to say that hopefully this would reassure that there wasn't anything personal about the family or Ricky and they were not the subject of infiltration. Now given the
05:19:08 subject of infiltration. Now given the intelligence reports that you've since had through this inquiry relating to for example your health and your distress at events. Do you consider that was an accurate assurance? No.
05:19:26 And then finally, page four, um the second paragraph.
05:19:41 So we see here here that a member of the family asks how confident were was operation hear that they had access to all documents and there hadn't been any shredding of SDS documents. If we could just go to the next paragraph downratic
05:20:02 responded that he couldn't say that that documents hadn't been shredded and that the MPS should have shredded any information that had been inappropriately gathered. Now, does this go to your concern about whether or not
05:20:14 go to your concern about whether or not documents relating to your surveillance have been um lost or shredded? Yeah.
05:20:22 Yeah. In this meeting in 2014, um did the police at any point tell you that an undercover officer had had direct contact with Mrs. Real um in in the privacy of of having given you a lift in his car?
05:20:34 his car? They did not even though they had this information at the time but they decided not to disclose to us simply because um they
05:20:48 disclose to us simply because um they were reassuring all the families justice family campaigns and everything that there was no direct infiltration on them whereas they already had a report of Hayden 81
05:21:04 Hayden 81 direct spying on me. So they try to keep it quiet so that the other families don't question them. Finally, just then on on that point, um if we could go to MPS 0738094.
05:21:29 This is, as we can see on page two, a file note that was provided by DS Ukra um who you had the meeting with um in July of 2014 to Operation Hearn. Um and it's a note of a meeting dated 18th of August of
05:21:40 of a meeting dated 18th of August of that year. So it's about a month after the meeting we were just discussing. Um, if we could go to page three, which records a note of of the meeting that took place.
05:22:01 We see right at the top that this meeting involved um HN81, David Hagen, um, Assistant Commissioner Huitt, and DSU Kradic.
05:22:12 We can just zoom into um the third paragraph down that starts HN81 made brief reference to his illness.
05:22:24 Now, we see here HN81 um raising concerns
05:22:26 concerns that it had been claimed during a Metropolitan Police Service um media conference, that it had been claimed
05:22:43 conference, that it had been claimed that no officer had met the Real family, which he noted was inaccurate, as he'd met you, Mrs. Real, and he'd provided you with a lift home.
05:22:52 Now, at the same in the same paragraph, we see that Assistant Commissioner Huitt explained that he was aware of the incident. He'd been briefed um but had been careful not to make particular suggestions as to any contact that had taken place.
05:23:04 taken place. you can then move down to the next paragraph
05:23:10 paragraph and perhaps if we can capture those next few lines on the bullet points please.
05:23:21 Now we see here some review of the comments that had been made in the public media briefing. Um, in the next paragraph down, please
05:23:37 comment. I can see where this confusion occurs as the statement is correct.
05:23:45 occurs as the statement is correct. There are no references in SDS documents to HN81 directly meeting families. This revelation came during the interview with him by Operation Hearn. So it appears on the face of this document that a discussion took place about
05:23:57 that a discussion took place about whether to disclose the fact of the lift having taken place and that a decision was made um that no further public statements or correction of the record
05:24:08 statements or correction of the record would be made following this meeting in August of 2014. So about a month after your meeting with the Met. Was there any communication with you to inform you about the lift or your direct contact with HN81 David Hagen?
05:24:19 contact with HN81 David Hagen? Not until we had the report. So there there was nothing until we got Yeah.
05:24:24 Yeah. this report. So it was through disclosure from this inquiry that you discovered that such contacts had taken place. Yes.
05:24:39 Taking all of that together and the communication you've had from the force since the time of your surveillance to the present date, um do you do you think the Met have shown the cander and
05:24:50 the Met have shown the cander and openness towards you that you'd expect of a public service? No.
05:24:59 No. No, not at all. because when that when we were met with in July 2014 for the purposes of what they refer to as reassurance um the police knew that um the police knew about the lift home that's confirmed in the briefing meeting in August 14 that at the highest level in
05:25:14 August 14 that at the highest level in fact the police had already been briefed about the fact that there had been this lift and this targeted um targeted spying on my mom. they knew about it and they failed to say anything about it at the meeting in July. Um
05:25:25 about it at the meeting in July. Um after that briefing in August, they didn't come back to us to correct their earlier incorrect statement saying there'd been no direct or personal contact um with my mom. They didn't
05:25:37 contact um with my mom. They didn't correct it to us. They didn't correct the public perception either. Um the public perception was the the party line for the Met which was it was collateral in intrusion. this was there was no
05:25:49 in intrusion. this was there was no direct intrusion um direct intrusion or spying despite that briefing in August
05:26:00 spying despite that briefing in August 14 um and HN81 coming forward and saying well actually I did do this um a at the highest levels the police were already aware of the lift but b they didn't take any steps to um correct the public perception either and I think this is
05:26:11 perception either and I think this is just a continuation of the secrecy that we've experienced from the police from the day that Ricky went missing until today and it's a pattern the behavior we see from the Met that their first position is one of denial um until
05:26:22 position is one of denial um until they're faced with evidence where they can't deny it and then they use terms such as collateral intrusion to almost admit it but soften it um and manage the PR around it and that's this is a prime example of that happening in practice
05:26:36 example of that happening in practice I feel really angry about this because from the notes it was quite clear where Mr. Lambert is seem to be saying that's yes he uh N81
05:26:48 yes he uh N81 have addressed this but I don't remember then we have Mr. diddy I think he's called and that's when he said yes uh DC N81
05:26:59 N81 must have told me but I don't remember so this is selected ambia so if they don't want to answer their questions they said we don't remember I wish I can forget what happened to me but I can't so they fooled the public
05:27:13 so they fooled the public by saying no your your campaigns are collective um intrusion but in fact this was a direct direct direct intrusion
05:27:26 was a direct direct direct intrusion spying on us as a family. So in 2014 they knew they've done wrong. They should have come to us and say look this is what's happened for 11 years they kept us in dark not only us but the whole public.
05:27:47 whole public. Yeah. So their lies have continued. They started lying to us in 1997 and to this day they have been lying. And I know this doesn't cover it, but we had a meeting with the police only last year, police, assistant police commissioner, and he lied to us as well in Scotland Yard, saying we don't have the files. So this culture of the police lying
05:28:02 this culture of the police lying especially to black families, not giving them justice, you know, it just continues. And I don't think there is a police officer in the mad place, good enough, qualified enough, decent
05:28:15 good enough, qualified enough, decent enough to give uh justice. I don't think there is.
05:28:18 there is. And I hold my head high now to say yes my son I can finally look in the mirror which I haven't been which I haven't
05:28:29 which I haven't been which I haven't been doing been able to do for the last 28 years. I can look now in the mirror and say Ricky I've done all I can to get you justice but the justice has been denied to you by the police.
05:28:41 denied to you by the police. I think the other issue with the note is this note is it tells us that we haven't got all of the disclosure or that it existed at one point but has been destroyed because there is no note in
05:28:54 destroyed because there is no note in that account that HN81 is giving there is some years after the actual lift was provided.
05:29:05 provided. That was all the questions I had for you. Um but I know you came today with a number of issues you wanted to ensure were covered. Um, is there anything else you'd like to add before your evidence finishes?
05:29:18 finishes? Um, I had a couple of points I wanted to add if that's okay. Um first thing is um there seems to have been a lot of discussion about a lot of focus on MFJ and um you know other groups being
05:29:32 MFJ and um you know other groups being involved in the campaign and Sesh Grover having different conversations with with these groups that were private and I
05:29:51 these groups that were private and I just want to make clear that that didn't happen and that's not accurate and that and we've known Sesh for 28 years and those things categorically didn't happen. The campaign
05:30:03 didn't happen. The campaign was born out of necessity. My mom was just working full-time at the time. Ricky was at university. I was at school. My sister was at university. My younger brother had just started secondary school. Um, and we had lived probably
05:30:17 probably compared to the life we lead lead now very much in a bubble. We were un we hadn't really suffered overt racism. We hadn't come under the radar of the
05:30:34 hadn't come under the radar of the police for any of the wrong reasons. Um, and our parents had always raised us to be law-abiding, to follow the rules. Um, no one wakes up one morning and decides,
05:30:36 decides, I'm going to double up on the loss that I've already suffered and losing my son or my brother and I'm going to make my life even more difficult and I'm going
05:30:47 life even more difficult and I'm going to set up a campaign um and and to get justice. No one makes that decision. It was done at great personal cost to our family who still haven't recovered and I'm not sure we ever will.
05:30:59 and I'm not sure we ever will. We're still we're sat here 28 years after Ricky's death. I was 17 when this happened and I'm in my 40s and I have my own children and this is trauma that's going down from generation to
05:31:13 going down from generation to generation. And the campaign was set up because
05:31:15 because we weren't getting the answers we deserved and that Ricky isn't here to ask for himself. So we weren't none of this was by choice and none of this was
05:31:30 this was by choice and none of this was a conscious decision. But any suggestion that our campaign was in any way led by any anybody else or that there were others trying to have conversations in private
05:31:36 private is just a distraction from the real issue. And the real issue is that the police spied on us and there was no justification for it whatsoever. We led the campaign. We made the decisions.
05:31:49 the campaign. We made the decisions. Sesh was the coordinator but we led it. We had support from others like John
05:31:59 We had support from others like John McDonald but we led it. And we had other supporters on the periphery, but we led it all the way. And everything we did was peaceful, like many of the other high-profile justice campaigns at the time. Everything we did was peaceful. We did pickets where we we got permission
05:32:15 did pickets where we we got permission to pick it. We did candlelight vigils in memory of Ricky. We did petitions to the prime minister. We we did um hunger strikes. All of those things were at great personal cost to us because we had to relive the events and
05:32:30 because we had to relive the events and tell our story openly, royally over and over again. No one chooses to do that. We did it because the police left us no choice because they didn't give us the
05:32:43 choice because they didn't give us the answers and they treated us with racism not once, not twice, but over and over again from one investigation into the next. And so I just want to be very clear that we as families can speak for ourselves and we did speak for ourselves and and and we led those campaigns and we continue to do so today. And any
05:32:55 we continue to do so today. And any suggestion to the contrary is frankly insulting to us I think. Um and those members that originally involved in the campaign such as Sesh such as John McDonald they're still involved with us 28 years later now. The impact of the
05:33:10 28 years later now. The impact of the what the police did to us has meant that we keep those we trust close. We don't trust very many people. Certainly don't trust the police, but it's very difficult to trust people and take them at face value. Even if they hold themselves out to be doing things that
05:33:23 themselves out to be doing things that are in our benefit, it's very difficult to do that. So you can imagine that if we trust Sesh after 28 years, that means something to us because it's not our trust is not
05:33:35 us because it's not our trust is not something we give lightly anymore at all.
05:33:37 all. Um, and
05:33:39 Um, and I just want to be clear that the racism we suffered happened from the very first contact we had with the police on the day that Ricky went missing. And that
05:33:50 And that polluted, contaminated everything from that day to today. That thread has run through everything and all our experiences. And the difficulty with that is that that
05:34:02 the difficulty with that is that that investigation, those first seven days before Ricky was found, anybody knows that those first 24 hours in a missing person's case is absolutely crucial. It's called the golden hours for a reason. That's when the evidence is at
05:34:20 reason. That's when the evidence is at its strongest. That's when you're likely to find forensics, witnesses, CCTV. But the police refused to take a statement for 24 hours. They wouldn't
05:34:34 statement for 24 hours. They wouldn't even accept that Ricky was at risk. They wouldn't accept the racist incident had anything to do with his disappearance. And that was what we were up against. And so
05:34:36 And so that meant that there was no forensics when his body was recovered. There was no forensics on his clothes. The pathologist who undertook his first postmortem was directed to look for signs of accidental death and that's
05:34:48 signs of accidental death and that's what he did. So we were forced into the most difficult position any family could of having to commission another postmortem on Ricky. Just when you thought his dignity couldn't be stripped away again, we were forced into a
05:35:03 away again, we were forced into a position where we we had to say, "Sorry, Ricky, but we're going to have to put you through this again." And that postmortem found signs of injury and defense.
05:35:09 defense. The police gave us back his clothes the
05:35:18 The police gave us back his clothes the day after he went his body was recovered after the first postmortem commissioned by the police was done. on and we were told that's it. There's no more postmortm. It's done. So they g gave us back his clothes. We washed them. I washed them. Me and my sister who sat over there washed his clothes and we
05:35:30 over there washed his clothes and we hung them out in the washing line. We were just a normal family. We didn't know anything about forensics. Nothing at all. We didn't know even know to ask
05:35:42 at all. We didn't know even know to ask the question, have you done forensics on these clothes? Why should we? Why would we have had to ask that question? That was the police's role, not ours. We don't have those resources. We don't have those skills. who don't have that knowledge that the police have. So, we washed his clothes. All the forensic
05:35:57 washed his clothes. All the forensic evidence was lost. That was the police's job, not ours. And that's why campaigns like ours are set up. And that lack of analysis, we got the CCTV evidence. We obtained it. We walked the streets. Turns out
05:36:12 it. We walked the streets. Turns out during the inquest that there was a map of all the CCTV in and around Kingston which had been collected as part of anti-terrorism efforts some years before Ricky went missing. The police didn't even know that that map, their own map
05:36:25 even know that that map, their own map existed, which meant they didn't seize the CCTV, which meant that some CCTV, which was seized at our behest, was destroyed by the police without it ever being viewed. And we now know that that was likely to have shown quite cogent information about Ricky's last
05:36:37 cogent information about Ricky's last moments. That as a family is extremely difficult to live with. To know that we had no control over the fact that someone took Ricky's life. But the control we could and should have had in ensuring that Ricky's killers were
05:36:49 ensuring that Ricky's killers were brought to justice was taken away from us by police officers who were racist, incompetent, and more interested in spying on us than actually looking at who did this and will they do it again?
05:37:06 who did this and will they do it again? And that lack of forensic analysis meant that when Ricky was found, we had very little evidence. So areas in other cases, you can revisit things like forensics because Ricky's death was a river death and he was found in water. We simply don't have that evidence and it's lost to us forever. And that's
05:37:19 it's lost to us forever. And that's squarely down to the police. And we now know that they were more intent on spying on us and looking at whether my mom was crying or upset or a good public speaker than actually looking into why
05:37:31 speaker than actually looking into why Ricky went into the water into the first place.
05:37:40 I also want to be clear that I we're very clear about why we were spied on and
05:37:43 and any suggestion that there were other organizations or anything involved is just it's it's just muddying the waters. The reality is we were spot we were targeted because
05:37:55 targeted because we were
05:37:58 we were because everything we did was lawful. There was no public disorder related to our campaign. That's not something we believe in. You've heard that from my mom. That's how we were raised and was still raised. That's how I raised my kids.
05:38:10 kids. But
05:38:11 But we stood up and we stood up at a time and there were other families including the Lawrenes and others who were standing up saying the Lawrence case is
05:38:29 standing up saying the Lawrence case is not actually sadly an exception which is what the police would have everybody believe. It wasn't an exception. It wasn't a one-off and it was still happening over and over again. And that was not a narrative that the police appreciated because they were working overtime to manage their public image
05:38:42 overtime to manage their public image and show that they had learned lessons from Lawrence and our case and others at the time showed that in fact they hadn't. Um and if anything they had doubled down on their efforts to shut
05:38:59 doubled down on their efforts to shut down any family who called them out for being racist or incompetent because it didn't serve their purpose. And we were spied on because we raised our voice. We were spied on because we were working with people who were peaceful but high-profile people like
05:39:10 peaceful but high-profile people like Sesh Grover and John McDonald. And we were spied on because we were working with other families. We weren't working in isolation. And thank goodness we weren't because we wouldn't have been here today to tell you our story. We
05:39:22 here today to tell you our story. We were supporting and supported by other justice campaigns and other individuals who had suffered what we had suffered sadly or who were supporting people who
05:39:34 sadly or who were supporting people who were going through what we went through at the time. And because of that, we were targeted because we wouldn't stay quiet. We were targeted. And because we made absolutely clear that we would not stop and we will not stop until we get
05:39:46 stop and we will not stop until we get justice for Ricky and all those others out there who are and aren't part of this inquiry. We will not stop. Um and because of that we were targeted and there was you know we didn't need to
05:39:57 there was you know we didn't need to link our case to the Lawrence case or other cases. It was blindingly obvious when I told we told our story what the parallels were. There were articles in
05:40:09 parallels were. There were articles in the press at the time which said first Lawrence now Ricky will and mentioned another high-profile case. What next? There was a huge amount of publicity around it and the police were threatened by that and you can see from the
05:40:20 by that and you can see from the surveillance reports that we do have that there was absolutely no public disorder in anything we did. And so it's quite obvious to conclude that the reason we're being targeted and as you've seen in the reports was that they were worried that we were being
05:40:32 were worried that we were being supported. We were coordinated in the sense that we were supporting families were working together. We weren't working against each other. And we've seen in the surveillance reports that the police are preoccupied with
05:40:43 the police are preoccupied with identifying divisions between family justice campaigns. That was the emphasis of so much of that surveillance. They were so interested in what banner
05:40:55 were so interested in what banner families were working under. Um and that tells you everything you need to know about why they targeted our family. Um and it was nothing and it was certainly not collateral as we've seen from those reports. And the suggestion that it was clattering in 2014
05:41:10 clattering in 2014 was misleading and it was insulting and it it it just shows that the police will only accept they have made an error when they are forced into a position with undeniable evidence that they have made
05:41:22 undeniable evidence that they have made that error and we as a family are fed up of being in that position over and over again. Um
05:41:27 again. Um I'll try and keep it short. I'm very sorry.
05:41:28 sorry. Um,
05:41:43 I would just say just in conclusion that coming here today for my mom and I, my sister's here, my dad sat at the back there and he has suffered every step alongside my mom. It's been really difficult to come here um and talk about this openly. And for everyone who's participated in this
05:41:58 everyone who's participated in this inquiry, the women um who were the women who um had um I'm not really sure you can call them relationships because they weren't relationships, they weren't consentual, but those women, those other environmental campaigners, individuals
05:42:10 environmental campaigners, individuals like Sesh and others who have come under the surveillance from working with families like ours, we've all come here at great personal cost to lay ourselves open again and again and again, and this will keep
05:42:25 again and again, and this will keep happening. But why do we do it? We don't do it because it serves our benefit. This is not going to help us um find out how why or how Ricky died, but we're doing it because we've got responsibility. All of us have to understand why this happened
05:42:40 understand why this happened to be clear that it's not collateral intrusion
05:42:42 intrusion and to make sure it doesn't doesn't happen again because no family deserves to go through what we did at our lowest to be spied on by the police and then
05:42:53 to be spied on by the police and then told it. it was collateral and then told well actually it did happen and we're very sorry. Um no one deserves to do that but it's been very difficult for us to come here and my dad it's been very difficult for him and my mom and it and it's frustrating
05:43:06 and it and it's frustrating that people that officers like HN81
05:43:14 haven't come to give evidence. We all have health issues. We all have difficulties. We all have our own trauma.
05:43:19 trauma. Yeah. trauma, but my mom lost her son and that's not something she can get back. And yet
05:43:33 something she can get back. And yet she's here and I would ask the inquiry to to take that on board, please. I've got UM
05:43:44 SIR, if you don't mind, my mom has a short statement she would like to read, if you wouldn't mind. Of course, I'll read it as quickly as possible. No, take all time that you need.
05:43:51 need. Thank you. No pressure of time. Thank you.
05:44:03 Would you provide a copy to me when you've read it? I will.
05:44:05 I will. Thank you. Yeah.
05:44:07 Yeah. Um
05:44:09 Um first of all I want to say thank you to you sir for giving me the opportunity to to discuss this case and bring it to the public attention and to each and every one of you for coming here and
05:44:22 one of you for coming here and supporting us. Thank you and um the impact of these revelations of
05:44:33 the impact of these revelations of spying has been devastating for nearly two decades. I have lived with grief, guilt and constant stress. I suffer from nightmares
05:44:44 nightmares in which I see eyes watching me all the time. I have somia, panic attacks and
05:44:57 time. I have somia, panic attacks and constant anxiety. The stress contributed to serious health problems. And I'm not the same person I was before 1997. My family has suffered too. My children lost the brother and I lost
05:45:08 and also lost a mother which are where I used to be. I spent years campaigning, attending meetings, fighting for justice instead of being present for them. My husband has worn the weight of supporting us all. Our lives have been
05:45:22 supporting us all. Our lives have been dominated by court hearings, inquiries, and hospital visits. We have spent 28 years trying to uncover the truth only to learn that we will be spied upon. What hurts most is that the police
05:45:34 What hurts most is that the police seemed more interested in protecting their reputation than in finding out what happened to Ricky. They spied on me because I'm an Asian mother prepared to speak up. They fe they featured my camp
05:45:49 speak up. They fe they featured my camp sorry they feared my campaign because it challenged their failures.
05:46:00 They cerized our case as collateral intrusion. Yet internal documents show that it was personally targeted, coordinated, and fed into senior levels of the source. This is institutional racism and sexism in action. The
05:46:13 racism and sexism in action. The McFersonen inquiry described the Metropolitan Police and and as institutionally racist in 1997. Her case shows that by 1998 the police were already worrying about another
05:46:24 were already worrying about another Lawren style embarrassment and were willing to spy on buried families to avoid it.
05:46:33 avoid it. Over the years we have learned that many others were being were being spied upon by undercover police in similar ways. We now know that numerous justice campaigns led by brief families, families just
05:46:46 led by brief families, families just like mine who were courageously fighting for truth after unimaginable loss loss were monitored and reported on by these units. We know that even beyond
05:46:59 the families, women who was duped into force relationships and social justice campaigners exercising their democratic right to protect were infiltrated and surveillance as if they were enemies of the state.
05:47:14 the state. Undercover officers stooped so low as to steal the identities of deceased children to build up their fake personas. meaning that completely
05:47:25 personas. meaning that completely innocent families already devastated by the loss of a child had their child's memory exploited and without their knowledge or consent. This is a this is a cruelty that beggars belief and the betrayal did not stop with us families the campaigners. It is extended to those who should who stood
05:47:38 extended to those who should who stood shoulderto-shoulder with us in a fight for justice, professionals and advocates who supported families like mine.
05:47:49 I want this inquiry to do what the police have failed to do, tell us the
05:47:58 police have failed to do, tell us the truth. I want it to acknowledge that my family was targeted and infiltrated. I want it to name the officers involved and explain what happened to all the documents which are missing. I want to know whether intelligence about us was shared with the coroner or any other bodies and I want to see those reports
05:48:13 bodies and I want to see those reports please. I want this inquiry to make it clear that families who fought for justice are not enemies. We should not have been spied on. We should never we should instead have been supported.
05:48:38 We believe in the promise of justice. We believe that if the truth is exposed in full clear, a society can begin to heal and
05:48:45 and and important reforms will follow. We believe the inquiry can be a force for good. But that will only be true if the inquiry does not shy away from bold
05:49:02 inquiry does not shy away from bold decisions, conclusions, recommendations. This inquiry has a duty to not let us down. Too often in the past, public inquiries and reports have been raised expectations only to bury the real
05:49:16 expectations only to bury the real accountability in vague language. That cannot be allowed to happen here. Not after everything we have given, not after the wounds we have,
05:49:27 after the wounds we have, not after the wounds we have reopened to assist this process. Our country is at crossroads. Trust in the place especially in the marginalized by the marginalized communities is hanging by a thread.
05:49:38 thread. The findings and actions that come out of this inquiry will either begin to mend the trust or break it completely. If the inquiry robustly confronts the racism and misogyny at the heart of this
05:49:50 racism and misogyny at the heart of this scandal and recommend strong measures to prevent such abuses in the future, then we can say that our pain had a purpose.
05:50:01 we can say that our pain had a purpose. But if it but if this inquiry fails, if it minimizes the profound wrongdoing that occurred or shields those responsible or produces a report that gathers dust, then a dangerous message will be sent. It will tell the public that even when the police gravely abuse
05:50:12 that even when the police gravely abuse their power, they can get away with it. It will deepen the disillusion that many sorry
05:50:26 that many already feel. It will be frankly another betrayal, one we fear would erode faith in the British justice in a generation. That is why I urge you sir John Mitting and all involved in
05:50:40 sir John Mitting and all involved in this inquiry to be fearless and to be fair.
05:50:42 fair. Do not allow any institution or individual to put themselves above accountability. For the sake of our country's future,
05:50:54 For the sake of our country's future, shine the brightest light on those dark chapters and ensure that lessons are learned. We are at a turning point, a moment when we as a society decide what will what we will tolerate from
05:51:12 what will what we will tolerate from those who police us. Will we tolerate spying on grieving families? Will we tolerate the sexism that enabled in undercover officers to abuse women? Will we tolerate racism that views families of color as potential extremist
05:51:29 families of color as potential extremist simply for demanding justice? Or will we say never again and put in place the safeguards, oversight, and cultural change that needed to make sure that this never happens to another family like mine.
05:51:40 like mine. For me, the choice is clear. I have devoted the last 28 years to
05:51:51 I have devoted the last 28 years to fighting for justice and I do not attend to stop now. Urge the inquiry do the right by the families and the individuals who have given you their stories when many of us who have lost so much.
05:52:06 Stories stories are all we have left. Stories can be powerful though. Stories can drive change.
05:52:18 can drive change. Thank you for listening to my statement. I sincerely hope that in your final re report and recommendations you will speak truth to power because we are no longer watched. We are now watching. We are now doing the watching to watch
05:52:37 We are now doing the watching to watch what this inquiry does and next. Above all, I want justice for Ricky. My son was kind, promising young man.
05:52:53 He He deserved to live. He deserved a proper investigation. He deserved respect. So did we.
05:53:02 I am speaking out not only for Ricky, but all the families who have been spied upon and misled. We deserve accountability and we deserve change. I ask this inquiry to ensure that no other
05:53:15 ask this inquiry to ensure that no other parent has to carry their child's coffin simply
05:53:23 when he was killed because of his color. And no parents stand where I'm standing today. Thank you.
05:53:58 I'm sorry.
05:54:09 Mrs. Real, I have met several people in the course of the inquiry who have suffered grievous loss like you. Like you, they have all behaved with complete dignity and propriety
05:54:24 complete dignity and propriety and I am deeply grateful uh to all of you.
05:54:25 you. I know this is not an easy task for you to come here to give evidence already uh and to look into as you and your
05:54:37 and to look into as you and your daughter have done with very great care the documents that have been given to you by the inquiry and to make your helpful comments about them. I bear in mind what you say about the what you hope from the inquiry. Please bear in
05:54:51 hope from the inquiry. Please bear in mind that I am only a human being and I cannot achieve perfection. I will do my best, but that is all that I can promise.
05:55:06 In July, in June and July next year, the inquiry will hear live evidence from many of the senior officers who were in post at the time of the events that you were involved in. Okay. Um, you will
05:55:18 were involved in. Okay. Um, you will hear evidence about them which uh will perhaps put a slightly different light upon what you've seen in the documents
05:55:32 upon what you've seen in the documents already about what they knew and did and the purposes for which they did it. Um, until both you and I have heard them uh give evidence, I've read a lot of documents, but until you and I have
05:55:45 documents, but until you and I have heard them give evidence, then we must both, I hope, um,
05:55:52 think carefully before reaching conclusions about it. When we met in May 2018, Yeah. uh I had not read as I now have anything like the extent of the
05:56:04 anything like the extent of the documents that I have or heard the evidence that I have ha I have and um I'm well aware that the issue of so-called collateral intrusion is an
05:56:20 so-called collateral intrusion is an important one which I must resolve and I must resolve it in the light of all of the information that I've read and received and will receive. uh and uh I
05:56:33 received and will receive. uh and uh I please bear please be assured that I do regard the reason for the reporting on family campaigns such as yours as very important and I'm determined to get to
05:56:44 important and I'm determined to get to the bottom of that reason and I will do my best to do so.
05:57:04 We will um adjourn now until 10:00 uh tomorrow.
05:57:07 Thank you.