Mark Jenner (HN15) continues evidence about his holidays with Alison using annual leave meant for his real family, the 1997 Israel trip where he fell seriously ill, and his marriage to S. He discusses Alison's desire to have children, the 18 months of couples counseling at Relate knowing he would never father her children, and his exfiltration strategy involving feigning depression. Jenner admits the relationship was 'a callous deception' and that he was 'looking after number one'. He describes Christmas 1997 spent with Alison while his real family were elsewhere.
00:26:47 Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings are going to be live streamed subject to the usual 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes
00:26:59 hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for photography or recording. Yes, Mr. Bar. Excuse me. Can I just ask there's there was a couple of points uh raised late
00:27:12 was a couple of points uh raised late yesterday afternoon. Uh one of them is a diagram that was put to me on I'd like to
00:27:18 to comment with the benefit of of thought overnight on that. Yes. And secondly, there was a photograph that I was shown after the uh finished and also like to comment on that if I
00:27:29 and also like to comment on that if I may at some point. Uh of course. Um Mr. Bar will ask you to do that I think first. Um we're in agreement that you should be shown the photograph first of all. Uh my very first question. Could we have the
00:27:41 very first question. Could we have the bedroom photograph um displayed please? Uh this if this is a photograph of you in the bedroom of Allison's flat, is it?
00:27:53 in the bedroom of Allison's flat, is it? It is. Yes. If we concentrate in the bottom right hand corner, uh we can see there is a cable, light
00:28:06 uh we can see there is a cable, light colored cable running up onto Is that the bedside table? Yes, it is. Yeah. And the cable leads to some sort of electronic device. Is that
00:28:17 some sort of electronic device. Is that the telephone? It is a telephone. Yes, it is. So, um, your recollection yesterday was an error.
00:28:25 an error. It Yeah, it was. Yes, I I did believe that it was my mobile phone. I had forgotten that there was a a line a landline there. And of course then it makes sense because uh Brian Higgins
00:28:37 makes sense because uh Brian Higgins would have had the number for the flat and that's how I traced it back to him in the Republican forum. So Allison's account of that was completely accurate.
00:28:49 account of that was completely accurate. Yes.
00:28:51 Yes. So if we can take that down please. Could we have up from tab B45749473
00:29:00 please.
00:29:20 And if we can have page 12,
00:29:28 this is the floor plan. Uh, your ruminations overnight have led you to Yeah, I mean, it was actually it was a comment you made. Um, could that just be
00:29:41 comment you made. Um, could that just be zoomed in a little bit, the the diagram?
00:29:46 Um I don't I say I didn't recognize the the writing but obviously I did say that that certainly I would been the only person capable of of writing that and the reason that it's that it's written
00:29:58 the reason that it's that it's written in certainly in the communal kitchen was because at that time when I when I moved in and declared that this was a change of address I told the uh even though Bob
00:30:10 of address I told the uh even though Bob Lambert knew that I was cohabiting uh I wasn't sure how well known it was amongst the other supervisors. I told them I was moving into a room in her flat which had previously been occupied
00:30:22 flat which had previously been occupied by the friend of hers. So I was trying to distance myself from that cohabitation thing. This was like a an emergency contact address uh form with the the phone numbers down at the bottom
00:30:34 the the phone numbers down at the bottom there. And of course access to that would have been from other people in the back office and members of staff in the event of emergency. So that was the way it had been written was that if I was
00:30:45 it had been written was that if I was moving into a place which was not quite a beds but it was a flat with my own excuse me my own room with a commino or kitchen that's why it's written in that term.
00:30:54 term. So you are misre misrepresenting the position on this diagram. The diagram itself is accurate but yes the the context of it it looks as though it is a bed sit whereas in fact it
00:31:06 it is a bed sit whereas in fact it wasn't. If we can zoom out to see, it's got those emergency contact details on on there. We can we went through
00:31:19 on on there. We can we went through yesterday when you had the pager and when you had the mobile. Your evidence about the mobile was that you got that in 96.
00:31:29 in 96. reminding you of those features because you said in the course of your last answer that Bob Lambert knew that you were cohabiting. Yes, that's my belief. Yeah. My question is when did Bob Lambert know
00:31:43 My question is when did Bob Lambert know that you were cohabiting with Allison? It was that would have been when I had a discussion with um three other colleagues in the SDS and
00:31:57 three other colleagues in the SDS and that was in general terms about uh I said to them, you know, I need or the circumstances are that I could move in with at that time. I worded it as being
00:32:10 with at that time. I worded it as being uh activists or somebody that I knew. Um, and they were sort of talking, but they'd obviously they went back to Bob Lamb, but I think at least one of those
00:32:21 Lamb, but I think at least one of those people was my mentor, known as a field mentor. Um, and then the obviously on the conversations I never spoke to Bob
00:32:32 conversations I never spoke to Bob directly, but the feedback from from then was from him. If you're going to go down that road, just be very careful and be aware of how much extra time that's
00:32:44 be aware of how much extra time that's going to cost you in terms of deployment time day and night. And so by cohabiting, did you mean
00:32:55 did you mean living with Allison in a sexual relationship? Yes.
00:33:01 Yes. And in terms of so the conversation you had with you said three people.
00:33:12 you said three people. Yeah. Not all at once but yes there were there were three different people. Yeah. Was such that they would have known that you were proposing to cohabit.
00:33:23 proposing to cohabit. Yes.
00:33:28 And in terms of what what leads you to the conclusion that Bob Lambert understood that that was what was being proposed is
00:33:39 was what was being proposed is because I was told that they'd spoken to Bob Lambert or certainly one of those officers had spoken directly to Bob Lambert. Um, and I think he at that time, bearing in mind this is only I'd
00:33:51 time, bearing in mind this is only I'd been less than six months out into the field, but he was the go-to person for practical matters such as that given his previous experience, albeit we didn't
00:34:02 previous experience, albeit we didn't know the full extent of that at the time.
00:34:06 Now, of those three people you spoke to, are two of them people who we are not naming but who we referred to yesterday?
00:34:17 naming but who we referred to yesterday? Let me just
00:34:21 check my list.
00:34:35 Not even by nominal please written only. Oh,
00:34:39 Oh, do you want me to write down? Essentially, I would like all three names.
00:34:42 names. Okay. Right. There we go.
00:36:07 So all three of those people knew that you were proposing cohabitation. Yes.
00:36:17 coming back and in terms of dates, if I if I'm understanding your evidence correctly, this is happening sometime in 1995.
00:36:28 in 1995. Yes.
00:36:34 Stepping back to this document, at least part of it must date from 1996 or later.
00:36:43 or later. But poss the first time I saw it was yesterday where it's cut and paste. I don't know. Yeah. When you draw this diagram, you've accepted today you are
00:36:54 accepted today you are creating a false impression. Exactly. Yeah. That it's a house of multiple occupation when it's in in fact the flat you are living in with Allison. What I would
00:37:05 living in with Allison. What I would like to know is who
00:37:10 is who you are hiding the truth from in order for me to create this particular Yeah. When you create this,
00:37:21 Yeah. When you create this, you are hiding the truth. What I want to know is who is it that you do not want to know you are cohabiting? I think at that stage um I
00:37:33 cohabiting? I think at that stage um I well anyone other than Bob Lambert I would say because I didn't I didn't know the other supervisors well enough and also as I say this document would have been accessed accessible by newer uh
00:37:47 been accessed accessible by newer uh officers coming into the back office. So that's what I I left it at that
00:37:54 impression I'm getting is that fellow undercover officers you are trusting with this information because you've told three of them.
00:38:06 you've told three of them. Yes.
00:38:08 Yes. Bob Lambert is trusted with this sort of information. Yes.
00:38:14 Yes. What I'm now wanting to know to explore your last answer in a little more detail is it is one thing to think well I'm not going to write this down. I'm not going
00:38:26 going to write this down. I'm not going to leave an explicit paper trail. Yeah.
00:38:30 Yeah. To the effect that I am cohabiting.
00:38:36 But I don't mind anybody within the SDS knowing.
00:38:39 knowing. Yes.
00:38:40 Yes. It is another thing to say I don't want to leave a paper trail and there are people within the SDS that I do not want
00:38:51 people within the SDS that I do not want to know about this. Can you help us with which of those it was? It was people that I didn't necessarily know. I mean there was no uh in terms of the paper trail. I mean this was an
00:39:02 the paper trail. I mean this was an internal SDS document. It was basically a um a safety emergency response site thing. So it kept in the office but it was um you know there were new people coming into that unit and I who I didn't
00:39:15 coming into that unit and I who I didn't know and you know I well I didn't trust them because I didn't know them and that that was the reason for that. So if we look now at your
00:39:26 So if we look now at your you were managed by DCI Edmonson when you
00:39:31 you joined the that's right yeah I was the SDS. Uh, did you have any concerns about him knowing? Yes, I did. In as much that he was new
00:39:43 Yes, I did. In as much that he was new into the role as I understood it and I don't know what his background was, but he was very supportive and he was always to me and I think probably to others as well. He was subservient although senior
00:39:55 well. He was subservient although senior in rank was subservient to to Bob Lambert because obviously Bob with a greater experience. Did DCI Edmonson come to be trusted by you?
00:40:06 you? Well, he's senior management, so while Bob Lambert was around, I mean, trust is Yes. I mean, you trust him with all the sort of work stuff, but personal stuff
00:40:18 sort of work stuff, but personal stuff like this where I'm living with um a female. No, I I wouldn't have done mainly because I think in that situation that you're putting your management
00:40:29 that you're putting your management under an obligation to do something I bear and I didn't know know him that well other than he was a management. If you're dulging something which he thinks, oh that's wrong, you're then
00:40:42 thinks, oh that's wrong, you're then putting in a position where he has to do something with it. I didn't want to do that either. So that's why I left him. Are you able to say whether or not DCI
00:40:53 Are you able to say whether or not DCI Edmonson ever came to know? I don't know. I really don't know. To the best of your knowledge, did he know?
00:41:01 know? No.
00:41:06 He is replaced around the summer of 1997 by HN58.
00:41:13 by HN58. Yeah.
00:41:14 Yeah. For for these purposes, knowledge of cohabitation in a sexual relationship. Did HN did you trust HN58 with that
00:41:26 Did HN did you trust HN58 with that information? No, I didn't. Again, I didn't know him. Was that for the same reasons as DCI Edmonson or or any other reasons? No, that was for that reason. Same reason.
00:41:37 reason. Are you able to help us with whether or not he ever came to know? I'm not sure because when by 1990 you say 9798 I was in a I was in a position
00:41:50 say 9798 I was in a I was in a position I was so secure in that position that I say didn't care but I was you know I wasn't that fussed about it because I my relationship with Allison was well
00:42:03 relationship with Allison was well known. Um it was no secret I began to meet and she'd meet people I would meet and also other uh people in the SDS had seen me um outside that uh you know in
00:42:15 seen me um outside that uh you know in in in a working environment and presented as a couple. Um they'd been commented on in meetings that I'd been seen as a in a joking sort of way by one
00:42:26 seen as a in a joking sort of way by one officer in particular. So but I didn't really care. I was very confident in the role that I had at that time and just sorry and another there was another incident where one of the um one of the
00:42:39 incident where one of the um one of the the DS's there um which would have been around the time that I was down at do he was outside the the court building there when I was going one of and he came back
00:42:50 when I was going one of and he came back to the office and in front of everyone he said oh was that your girlfriend you were with and I said no so I sort Well, you know, he obviously he must have known it wasn't because Allison wasn't
00:43:01 known it wasn't because Allison wasn't with me. It was somebody unrelated. But so, yeah, it was my it was it was a bit of an open secret, but I think if I'm honest, they probably think, "Yeah, he's a girlfriend." The the fact that it was
00:43:12 a girlfriend." The the fact that it was a sexual relationship was never uh it was never discussed, but I think it was implied. And to be honest, I didn't really care by that point.
00:43:23 really care by that point. Um, right. I need to follow some of that up to get some details. uh the
00:43:30 uh the officer who made the joke in an SDS meeting. If you've got any if you know the person's name can be
00:43:42 if you know the person's name can be uttered fine. If not, write it down, please.
00:43:45 please. Let me just check. This is the the one I've just referred to about saying about I saw your you with your girlfriend. No, that's a we're going back to that. I need to know. I'm going to need to
00:43:56 I need to know. I'm going to need to know the name of the sergeant who made the comment about mis mistook another woman for your girlfriend. Oh, right. Okay. I'll need to know the name of the
00:44:07 I'll need to know the name of the officer who made the joke in the SDS meeting. And I will need uh the name of the other officers who knew that you were in a sexual relationship with
00:44:18 were in a sexual relationship with Allison.
00:44:19 Allison. I'll write them all down, I think. Thank you. And if you can make clear which is which. Yeah, please.
00:47:50 Jimmy.
00:48:07 Thank you.
00:49:08 May I have a look at that document again?
00:50:10 I can for the benefit of people uh listening and for the transcript say that the sergeant you've identified uh was Noel war. Correct.
00:50:20 Correct. And that one of the officers you have identified as knowing about your knowing about Allison was uh Jim Boiling.
00:50:31 about Allison was uh Jim Boiling. Correct. Who saw you with Allison? He did. Yeah. That's he so he told me. Yeah.
00:50:39 Thank you. Can we
00:50:44 go back now? If we can take that document down and go back to just clarify something you said yesterday. Could we have the
00:50:55 you said yesterday. Could we have the extract from yesterday's transcript up please?
00:51:08 The Q paragraphs are my questions. The A's are your answers. I'll let you read the whole of that extract, but the
00:51:19 read the whole of that extract, but the question is going to be about the very last sentence.
00:51:52 Okay. Uh what I'd like you to clarify is please whether you are saying that your attitude when you deployed was that you
00:52:04 attitude when you deployed was that you had to play the role of Mark Cassidy to the full.
00:52:10 the full. Absolutely. Yeah. Or whether you are saying that even at this very a very early stage of your deployment you had lost track of who you
00:52:22 deployment you had lost track of who you really were. I don't know. I don't I ever lost track of who I really was. I was playing that role to the absolute full.
00:52:31 full. Thank you. If we can take that down now, please. The answers you've just given us are very helpful and we'll make matters shorter. Um, if we uh can go now to tab
00:52:44 shorter. Um, if we uh can go now to tab B26
00:52:46 B26 245 961.
00:52:54 Uh there's an annual review of performance um d about you DC Jenner. It's by Bob Lambert. It's dated March
00:53:06 It's by Bob Lambert. It's dated March 1996.
00:53:09 1996. If we could have the text expanded. Um and if we could uh you can look at that, but it's the second and third paragraphs that I'm most interested in.
00:53:37 interesting. I haven't seen that before. Okay.
00:53:42 Okay. Right. So in in the light of your evidence that by this stage Bob Lambert knew that you were cohabiting with Allison.
00:53:53 Allison. Yes.
00:53:54 Yes. Looking at that second paragraph um the phrase I have been impressed with the way he has coped with a series of taxing operational problems that might
00:54:06 taxing operational problems that might have exhausted and perplexed a less resilient and imaginative officer. Instead, he has devised strategies to turn potential difficulties
00:54:19 turn potential difficulties to his advantage. As a result, he has produced results which have won plaudits for the unit. Is he there referring
00:54:30 Is he there referring to your cohabiting with Allison being a potential difficulty turn to advantage or something else? I would say reading that that's the first time I've
00:54:42 reading that that's the first time I've seen that. Yes, I would say that's what he is referring to. And then if we go to paragraph three, DC Jenner is a flaggmatic officer who
00:54:53 DC Jenner is a flaggmatic officer who remains calm in the face of danger. Regularly operating in a dangerous and hostile environment, he has shown that he has a temperament ideally suited to this type of work. Nonetheless, he pays
00:55:06 this type of work. Nonetheless, he pays due regard to the inherent stress of a job that makes huge demands in terms of hours and commitment and demonstrates the ability to balance operational requirements against domestic
00:55:18 requirements against domestic responsibilities and to relax with his family when the opportunity arises. Did you discuss with Bob Lambert
00:55:30 Did you discuss with Bob Lambert the difficulties that were going to arise from cohabiting with Allison whilst being married to s with a family?
00:55:41 whilst being married to s with a family? Not directly. No. When you say not directly. Yeah. Well, I just refer back to when I originally approached my colleagues
00:55:53 originally approached my colleagues who'd spoken to Bob. Um and he'd said that they reported back to me he they he'd said pretty much what he said there that it would be very taxing and uh you
00:56:05 that it would be very taxing and uh you know demanding taking on that role of cohabitation essentially. Um but I never spoke to him directly concerning that. No,
00:56:16 No, but he appears to be at least alluding here
00:56:23 to the issue that arises of balancing operational requirements with domestic responsibilities. Yeah, he does. And I think that's he's
00:56:36 Yeah, he does. And I think that's he's obviously trying to offset that because it almost contradicts itself. Well, in reality it did because um I wasn't able to, you know, relax and have an acceptable balance of family life uh
00:56:49 acceptable balance of family life uh once I was committed in the field as I was. So that's not accurate, but I summize that he's written that to make it sound a bit more palatable as a
00:57:00 it sound a bit more palatable as a as a report which his senior manager might see. I'm I suspecting that, but there certainly wasn't a balance as far as I was concerned. If we can take that document down now please could we have
00:57:12 document down now please could we have up B43749
00:57:18 325 please.
00:57:26 Uh this is a file note uh dated the 31st of July 1997. It bears your code name. If we go over the page,
00:57:39 If we go over the page, uh, it, uh, bears Bob Lambert's initials at the bottom. And then it says it's been submitted to HN58, uh, John Webb, Null War, and Bernard
00:57:53 uh, John Webb, Null War, and Bernard Greeny. If we could go back to the beginning
00:57:58 beginning just to remind you of where we are in the chronology. July 1997
00:58:04 July 1997 is when
00:58:07 is when Jaime's plot is to the four. Yeah.
00:58:11 Yeah. In your reporting. And if we uh look at first of all at paragraphs one and two.
00:58:23 I met touchy subject today. That means you you're meeting Bob Lambert and had a general discussion about his operation in the light of recent developments in particular Jaime's
00:58:36 developments in particular Jaime's approach for a possible major criminal activity in the foreseeable future. Specifically as regards Jaime's plans touchy subject was attending a meeting this evening and he would report the
00:58:47 this evening and he would report the outcome in the morning. He was sanguin about the matter but acknowledged the potential implications. I assured him that our approach would be guided by the principle that he ought not to give
00:58:58 principle that he ought not to give evidence at court. Should a criminal conspiracy emerge, then appropriate action might, for example, consist of disruption, as a tactic aimed at
00:59:11 disruption, as a tactic aimed at preserving his cover. Developments would be closely monitored and all tactical responses fully discussed.
00:59:22 responses fully discussed. Can you help us with what? Well, first of all, is that accurate? I'm just trying to remember what this actual plot was. Was this the thing that
00:59:35 actual plot was. Was this the thing that we were talking about yesterday with a group of activists? Group of five. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um,
00:59:44 yes. Um, sorry, what was the Can you help us flesh out the detail? A A, is this accurate? And if it is, can you help us flesh out the detail of what Bob
00:59:55 help us flesh out the detail of what Bob Lambert said to you about the ways in which you might uh proceed? Um I think this is obviously the report that Bob me I wouldn't have had the
01:00:06 that Bob me I wouldn't have had the sight of this initially but certainly yes we had um a discussion about the implications of uh this this little gathering that was organized by Jamie.
01:00:18 gathering that was organized by Jamie. Um I don't remember specifically talking about um you know all the sort of in what would happen if there would be a it would go a criminal trial etc
01:00:30 be a it would go a criminal trial etc etc. Uh I don't remember that but certainly it was my understanding anyway that you know whatever happened I would take it the distance and the back office would sort it out but I don't remember
01:00:42 would sort it out but I don't remember having specific discussions to the level of detail that's in this report but yes I do remember if it does go you know pear-shaped go to court just stay just we'll sort it out in
01:00:54 we'll sort it out in Can you clarify what you mean by take it the distance uh or go to court uh you know be arrested go to court and then leave it to them to deal with any resultant
01:01:06 to them to deal with any resultant matters arising from that. Does it follow that to be arrested you would have to be at least under suspicion of committing an offense? Absolutely. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So, does that follow that going a distance would include potentially
01:01:17 distance would include potentially committing the offense? Yes, indeed. Yeah. Uh, did DI Lambert say to you that the SDS had had previous experience of this sort of thing?
01:01:28 sort of thing? No, he didn't. No. Did he say that he'd had previous experience of this sort of thing?
01:01:32 thing? No, he didn't. Could we have um paragraph three and four up, please?
01:01:45 And I'll give you a moment to absorb those
01:02:18 Yes. Okay. Um,
01:02:23 this all makes a lot more sense in the light of the evidence you've given us at the start of this hearing. Sure.
01:02:30 Sure. And we may be able to deal with this more shortly. What is going on here? Is it not?
01:02:36 it not? Is that the possibility of you getting involved in a serious criminal conspiracy means that surveillance might be put on
01:02:49 means that surveillance might be put on you,
01:02:51 you, including the fact that you are living at Allison's flat with Allison. Correct.
01:02:59 Correct. And that possibility is something that you and Di Lambert have to think about. Well, yes, him in particular. Yeah.
01:03:10 Well, yes, him in particular. Yeah. And what he's doing here is making a written record which makes clear that there is an issue arising from your
01:03:22 there is an issue arising from your circumstances. But he is not truthfully explaining what it is
01:03:30 it is exactly. So that ties in with the the the floor plan explanation I gave earlier and he's replicated it here and uh he is essentially speaking in
01:03:41 and uh he is essentially speaking in code.
01:03:42 code. Yes.
01:03:45 Yes. And then if we go to paragraph four, uh we
01:03:52 uh we see that he's spoken at length to you about the benefits of this arrangement. Is that right? Yes.
01:04:01 Yes. And this arrangement being your cohabitation and relationship with Allison.
01:04:06 Allison. Uh not necessarily the relationship, but certainly the cohabitation. Yes. And the advantages that brought me. Yeah. And the first part of that paragraph is um all about the operational advantages
01:04:21 um all about the operational advantages uh to you. But then it goes on towards the end of the paragraph to talk about personal advantages to you, doesn't it? when it says he is no longer split three ways
01:04:33 says he is no longer split three ways home duff where his homes and actually finds that he has as much time at his real home now as he did when he lived on his own at his douff
01:04:46 I is it uh fair to say that you spoke at length with Bob Lambert about your living arrangements with Allison and he
01:04:57 living arrangements with Allison and he is clearly concluding that it's good for your operation and good for you. Yes, in a nutshell, I think that's correct.
01:05:05 correct. And was that and that was a view that you shared. It was at the time. I I don't I didn't agree with that final statement though. I had more time to, you know, to spend at home. That wasn't the case. No.
01:05:17 at home. That wasn't the case. No. Well, it says as much time. Okay. Well, which was very little anyway. Okay. Well, I mean, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. That's fine. What What was your impression? Did you have less time, the same time, or more
01:05:29 have less time, the same time, or more time?
01:05:31 time? Yeah, in fairness, it probably was about the same time. Yeah.
01:05:36 Um, and can I take it that um DI Lambert was perfectly relaxed about all of this? No hint of um disapproval.
01:05:47 No hint of um disapproval. Bob is the personification of relaxed. And yeah, of course he was. And on the contrary, he he thinks this is all very good for the operation and for you. I think so. Yeah.
01:05:59 I think so. Yeah. Uh could we go to um paragraphs five and six please?
01:06:11 Start with perhaps. Thank you. Give you a moment to absorb that.
01:06:32 Yes. So in some senses this is all false. But in another sense if you decode it he is saying this
01:06:44 if you decode it he is saying this arrangement with Allison is good news for your credibility in your deployment. Absolutely right. Yeah. And if we could um have that's at six,
01:06:57 And if we could um have that's at six, please
01:07:02 just thank you. It I asked him about the impact it had on his home life and he said that it had not made a significant difference. Yes, he acknowledged that he was often
01:07:15 Yes, he acknowledged that he was often away from home five nights a week, but he always got back at 6:30 a.m. each weekday morning because his wearies thought he was off to work. Also, his
01:07:27 thought he was off to work. Also, his employment allowed him cover to get away for longer periods when necessary. As regards holidays, the position was no different than before. Basically, he
01:07:38 different than before. Basically, he felt it was easier because he had more time to build credible stories for going away as he is doing this weekend for three weeks with his family. So, first
01:07:49 three weeks with his family. So, first I'm going to take this step by step. Yeah.
01:07:52 Yeah. First of all, is it right that he asked you about the impact that your cohabiting with Allison had on your home life?
01:08:03 your home life? Yes, you did. Yeah. And did you say to him something to the effect that it had not made a significant difference? Yeah, I did. Yes.
01:08:14 Yeah, I did. Yes. It it comes across quite flippant. Obviously, it it did with hindsight, but yes, I it made no difference. When you say it did with hindsight, I'd like you to put yourself back into
01:08:26 I'd like you to put yourself back into your shoes at the time you said this. You tell Bob Lambert it had not made a significant difference. Was that true? No, it wasn't true.
01:08:38 No, it wasn't true. What was the truth? I think um the I I don't think I was devoting anywhere near the enough time that he anticipated I
01:08:52 the enough time that he anticipated I had because yes, the the the the circumstances that oh that you know I get back home 6:30 weekday morning. Well, part that's for 5 days essentially. Two of those days would be
01:09:04 essentially. Two of those days would be taken up with SDS meetings in the afternoon certain the Monday be all day preparing reports from the weekend etc. And then every once a week I'd go and visit my uh cover employment back in
01:09:17 visit my uh cover employment back in that time I took up more time. So the actual time I had at home was severely reduced but that just came with the with the territory. There was nothing I could
01:09:29 the territory. There was nothing I could do with that. In terms of your relationship with your wife,
01:09:36 wife, the significant difference is you were having a sexual relationship with Allison and spending nights with Allison and not with your wife. I don't think
01:09:48 and not with your wife. I don't think the yes I mean obviously that that's what in fact was happening but there was no way even had I been on my own that I was going home and when even when I was in the flats having to spend the night
01:10:00 in the flats having to spend the night there simply because you know there was a massive drinking culture. I was never going to go home half drunk. So I would spend time on my own um in that flat and
01:10:13 spend time on my own um in that flat and not go home at all in the daytime. Daytime was the only time when I could legitimately get away when I was supposed to be working. In your mind at the time, was the fact
01:10:25 In your mind at the time, was the fact that you were having a sexual relationship with Allison, spending the nights with her significantly different from beforehand when you were spending
01:10:37 from beforehand when you were spending the night at home
01:10:42 with us? whilst I was in SDS or prior to all. We can have have both. Can you Okay. Well, yes. Um, no, it wasn't the same. And I did certainly, you know,
01:10:55 same. And I did certainly, you know, where are we? 1997 here. Yeah, it was a hell of a a strain and it was on my mind all the time. Um, you know, the sort of duplicity. It was I try to blanket out
01:11:09 duplicity. It was I try to blanket out as much as I can because, you know, I love my wife and I, you know, I the thought of deceiving her above everybody else was was an absolute abhorance, you
01:11:20 else was was an absolute abhorance, you know, but I just buried it. I just did not want to think about it. Um, and I just, you know, it was it was it was a real dilemma. It was very they were very very difficult times.
01:11:36 Why did you continue to deceive Allison and to betray your wife? Well, at the time I was still I was an SDS officer and that was that was my
01:11:48 SDS officer and that was that was my job. I had to stay in in position. Um s was aware of that or be it not the obviously the domestic arrangements I I
01:11:59 obviously the domestic arrangements I I I had with Allison. Um and we both understood that this was a shortterm uh it was a deployment that that would
01:12:10 uh it was a deployment that that would finish and things would get back to normal at the end of the day. Now in terms of the the whole Allison thing is that they said earlier in this document it did it you know it accelerated my
01:12:22 it did it you know it accelerated my progress in SDS absolutely turbocharged it. I would never have got to the levels I did without that domestic background and yeah I was happy to I say happy I
01:12:34 and yeah I was happy to I say happy I was satisfied that I had to keep going with this arrangement uh difficult as it was
01:12:41 was when you said shortterm uh that measured in a number of years. Yeah. Yeah, it is. But, you know, don't forget, I mean, it's this is 90 97 here.
01:12:52 forget, I mean, it's this is 90 97 here. Uh, it was a 4-year operation. And, you know, don't be under any illusion that, you know, we're looking at that time clock. Do what you can
01:13:03 at that time clock. Do what you can within that four years and then get back to your normal life. That was the mindset and it's certainly mine my mindset. So yes, it seemed like a short time and I believed and I and I think Es
01:13:15 time and I believed and I and I think Es wanted to believe that as well that better times would would come. As regards holidays, the position was no different than before. Basically, he
01:13:27 different than before. Basically, he felt it was easier because he had more time to build credible stories for going away as he is doing this weekend for three weeks with his family.
01:13:38 three weeks with his family. First of all, does that accurately reflect what you told Bob Lambert? I can't remember, but it wasn't true. Obviously, that wasn't true. Very untrue.
01:13:49 Very untrue. Yeah, it was. It was completely untrue. are um what I want to know is is this more Lambert code or have you not at
01:14:00 more Lambert code or have you not at this stage been fully forthcoming with Lambert about um holidays? I hadn't. Well, it certainly wasn't fully forthcoming with him. No. Um but
01:14:14 fully forthcoming with him. No. Um but oddly at the end of this particular holiday in question, yeah, he would know.
01:14:21 I may come back to that uh a little bit later. Um basically felt it was easy the position was no different. The position was very different in broad terms because you were going on a lot of
01:14:32 because you were going on a lot of holidays with Allison. Yes. Correct. Yeah. And not so many not so much time with your real family. Correct.
01:14:40 Correct. And the 3 weeks um which what's written as 3 weeks away with his family was not in fact 3 weeks away with your family,
01:14:52 in fact 3 weeks away with your family, was it?
01:14:52 was it? No. No.
01:14:53 No. No. It was 3 weeks with Allison in Israel. Correct.
01:14:57 Correct. But perhaps we should take it take the evidence now. What was it uh about that trip to Israel uh that led uh Bob Lambert to know about the truth holiday
01:15:08 Lambert to know about the truth holiday wise? It was um I mean I think this is the is this the second or third holiday that we'd had? But anyway, it was um at this time I'd
01:15:20 But anyway, it was um at this time I'd sort of decided that um I couldn't I I'd tried a domestic holiday in 95 with the family which was a complete disaster um you know for both of us s and myself and
01:15:33 you know for both of us s and myself and probably the children as well. I thought I can't do this again. is just I cannot extract myself. Uh and bearing in mind I wasn't as as deep into it as I was at
01:15:45 wasn't as as deep into it as I was at this stage. I couldn't and cover the fact that I was being away uh from this life uh successfully and I think we only went for 10 days on that occasion. So I
01:15:56 went for 10 days on that occasion. So I progressive I thought there's only one way I can deal with this is just go away. There was a massive problem with um the police for some reason with annual leave. Rest days obviously all
01:16:08 annual leave. Rest days obviously all used rest days and they were acrewed at the end of the deployment but apparently I was told by management that we had to use annual leave. They had to be seen to be you could carry a certain number over
01:16:19 be you could carry a certain number over but not a great deal. So there was pressure on to take annual leave as such. Um I think probably for maybe a health and safety issue whatever. So that was the problem. So I had to take
01:16:30 that was the problem. So I had to take annual leave. So I was left with a choice of a do I sort of I go home to my actual home and and stay there
01:16:41 actual home and and stay there which was just you know it was just untenable. I couldn't I couldn't do that because I was I was extracting myself from the field without and having to give an cover explanation for that which
01:16:53 give an cover explanation for that which was impossible. Couldn't do that. Second scenario was well not go anywhere and stay with Allison in Hacknne, you know, go to Garden Center or whatever, that type of thing. But I was still an
01:17:06 that type of thing. But I was still an undercover officer. Uh I could still be seen. I still be contacted. So I wasn't on annual leave. Couldn't take it like that. The third option was to go away, have cover to go away on holiday. And
01:17:18 have cover to go away on holiday. And Allison, I thought that's what I'm going to do. A I wanted to go on holiday. I needed a a break from all of this and I took the passport and we we went on
01:17:29 took the passport and we we went on holiday on a couple of three or four holidays. Didn't tell the office about that at all. I just went as far as they were concerned. I was taking his annual leave. He's all nicely refreshed and
01:17:40 leave. He's all nicely refreshed and good to go and that ticked all their management boxes in that respect. But in terms of this particular trip, um I mean Israel was a bit of an odd an odd choice to be honest because you know the the
01:17:53 to be honest because you know the the general left reputation of you telling people you're going on holiday on Israel was not quite as poisonous as it is today. But back then it would have thought what you going there for? But you know Allison
01:18:05 you know Allison new people out there and we wanted to was interested in going. So anyway, we went out there and um with the intention I think we I think we were going to go for two was it two or three weeks? I
01:18:16 for two was it two or three weeks? I can't remember. The first week touring around hiring a car. Um I wanted to see um uh the Goland Heights. We drove up there getting soldiers in the back of
01:18:27 there getting soldiers in the back of this higher car with you know all armed and beating the the troops on the on it all sort of tourist stuff. That was all it was. And then I think on the second day we were camping in this right over
01:18:38 day we were camping in this right over the Lebanese border. And I can remember this clearly to this day. We're camping there and there's a field full of uh other families mainly uh Arabic families,
01:18:52 families mainly uh Arabic families, children, and we're sitting there of an evening. I think we were only going to stay there one or two nights and the next thing that it was in a valley and the whole hillside lit up with what transpired to be rocket fire. The whole
01:19:05 transpired to be rocket fire. The whole whole valley just and it was like what the hell was that? You know, a real and people were coming out of their tents and looking at this and not 5 minutes later the the air was full of it was it
01:19:17 later the the air was full of it was it was like something out of a Vietnam war film. There were helicopter gunships uh and and fighter jets firing. These were Israeli forces firing over our heads
01:19:28 Israeli forces firing over our heads into the uh into southern Lebanon behind us and people just watching this a gas. It was it was it was quite quite unusual experience. Anyway, we drove back
01:19:39 experience. Anyway, we drove back towards Tel a Viv uh because we were then going to go down further south and I started to feel a bit unwell um you know and I thought it was sunstroke or something and uh got back to wherever it
01:19:53 something and uh got back to wherever it was we were staying I can't remember and I started to feel really unwell. I was sweating and basically went delirious completely delirious. I was I was
01:20:04 completely delirious. I was I was hallucinating. um absolutely a torrential sweat and Allison fortunately who was there um managed to get hold of a doctor I can remember the doctor
01:20:15 a doctor I can remember the doctor coming out to see me um but I was sort of in and out of sort of consciousness at that point I was in excruciating pain uh in my chest and um I I don't remember
01:20:29 uh in my chest and um I I don't remember then my sort of memory fades in and out and I was convinced that I would I've been helicoptered to this milit military hospital in in Tel a Viv. I convinced myself cuz the next thing I knew I was
01:20:40 myself cuz the next thing I knew I was on a stretcher being pushed through some double doors and then a day may have been two days later I woke up on my own in a hospital bed. I didn't know where I was. Um I was wired up with drips and
01:20:53 was. Um I was wired up with drips and all the rest of it. None of the staff spoke any English. Um, it was just a very very bizarre experience and it was the only experience I had in uh my
01:21:04 the only experience I had in uh my entire SDS career where I wasn't in control. I was sort of when I did come round and realize where I was. I thought what you know what have I done? What have I said? You know is the you know
01:21:16 have I said? You know is the you know where's me passport the embassy get you know all these sort of racing through. I didn't know where I was. Fortunately, one of the patients, an old boy next to me, um did speak a bit of
01:21:27 boy next to me, um did speak a bit of English. He explained it was a this it was a military type hospital and they were very good, etc. So anyway, and the doctor came round and spoke to me and I'd had plural pneumonia
01:21:39 I'd had plural pneumonia and I was pretty, you know, I'd lost about a stone in weight. Net result of this is we have to terminate the this holiday
01:21:49 holiday and go home early. I remember I do remember got home. It would have been it would have been the Saturday and it was that that Saturday night the night that
01:22:00 that that Saturday night the night that the uh Princess of Wales was killed in the car accident in in Paris. Um when I went to the uh next SDS meeting, I
01:22:12 went to the uh next SDS meeting, I walked in and the people, you know, there's other people there looking at me said, "Christ, I thought you'd been on holiday. You look absolutely bloody awful." And I did. I look ga and ill um
01:22:24 awful." And I did. I look ga and ill um and you know this what happened and I told them I told him this story which sounded completely fantastical uh but said that's what happened you know but anyway um one of the officers I
01:22:35 anyway um one of the officers I mentioned in that list earlier who had been sitting in on this I don't mean the management weren't there at that particular time he'd obviously gone and told Bob and the feedback I got from Bob
01:22:48 told Bob and the feedback I got from Bob was well you know he could have he could have told me as in no he could have ped to he could have told me as I could have confided in him that's what I took that to mean so that's at that point yes he
01:23:00 to mean so that's at that point yes he he would have been aware of these trips
01:23:07 did you have a conversation with Di Lambert in in the light of the you could have told me uh about what was going on did you speak about future holidays is
01:23:21 did you speak about future holidays is with him before we went away. Yes.
01:23:23 Yes. No, I don't think I did. No. Um, but you were as an undercover police officer in Israel who was unwell, pretty exposed, weren't you?
01:23:34 weren't you? Absolutely. Yeah. Are you sure there was no discussion with any manager at all about your welfare on future holidays? Not that I can recall. No. No. Could we
01:23:47 Not that I can recall. No. No. Could we uh go to over the page please to paragraphs um seven and eight
01:23:59 seven. He was very keen to promote what he was doing as a viable alternative to the traditional SDFS method of living alone in a bedsit. In his experience, this was an unsatisfactory method that
01:24:10 this was an unsatisfactory method that was fraught with problems. I explained that he was not the first field officer to arrive at this conclusion. It was something that had always caused
01:24:22 something that had always caused concern, most notably in the anarchist field. Indeed, the SDS had past experience of operatives successfully living with wearies exactly as he was
01:24:35 living with wearies exactly as he was doing
01:24:37 doing now. Nonetheless, there were obvious ways in which shared accommodation did place an added burden of responsibility and pressure on a field officer. We discussed this at some length.
01:24:51 discussed this at some length. Can you help us with what Bob Lambert told you about the SDS's past experiences
01:25:02 experiences of its operatives living in sexual relationships with um activists? I can't remember him discussing that
01:25:14 I can't remember him discussing that with me. And you know, obviously he says he's he's done that. And obviously with it with hindsight, we know that that was the case. Um yeah, if he said to me, I I
01:25:25 the case. Um yeah, if he said to me, I I don't recall it with any significance because I was I was so wrapped up in my I knew what I was doing. I was a master of my own destiny in that respect. So I wasn't really bothered what the history of it all was. Um the fact that he knew
01:25:37 of it all was. Um the fact that he knew about it, well, that that was fine. And it did it did ease a bit of pressure on in my mind that he was aware of that. But I can't remember him discussing any
01:25:48 But I can't remember him discussing any specific uh offices or you know details of previous deployments that ended up like this. And I think you look at I know he was in the the sort of an
01:25:59 know he was in the the sort of an anarchist type field and you know the sort of the squatting existence was maybe quite sort of different from what I was doing but I think with hindsight
01:26:11 I was doing but I think with hindsight I'm looking at this and thinking perhaps he was referring to that sort of thing. So where people live together in squats but not specifically in the way that I was but I I can't unfortunately I can't
01:26:22 was but I I can't unfortunately I can't help any more details on that. So, a second dimension to this conversation appears to have been a lengthy discussion about what he is
01:26:35 lengthy discussion about what he is phrasing as an added burden of responsibility and pressure on you. Yeah.
01:26:42 Yeah. Can you help us with what um that conversation involved on both sides? Well, I think uh with that um in in sort of general terms that we were
01:26:55 in sort of general terms that we were talking about um the fact that when you're living with somebody and this was that this was the whole um issue that we were I think Andy Coohl's mentioned it in his thing about falling in love with
01:27:08 in his thing about falling in love with somebody is you know it's not a good idea and you know because you're vulnerable to all these various um problems around uh well going native was to take it to his
01:27:20 well going native was to take it to his f furthest extreme. But I think in this particular case he was concerned or he understood that yes there was an awful lot of time needed to be to
01:27:32 awful lot of time needed to be to maintain a relationship like this uh was very time consuming and and mentally time consuming as well because this is obviously this is only one part of my
01:27:44 obviously this is only one part of my SDS strategy. I still had all the other field the other field work and had to do as well. So yes, it was he he recognized that this was quite a a strenuous mental
01:27:57 that this was quite a a strenuous mental mental gymnastics really. And what sort of aspects of your having a sexual relationship and cohabiting with Allison
01:28:09 with Allison did he acknowledge and discuss with you? There was no there was never any mention of sexual relationships. It was it was basically all around the amount of time that I would need to devote to, you
01:28:22 that I would need to devote to, you know, to make this work as a as a basis for my SDS operation. And he was right in that respect. And did you discuss, for example, how
01:28:33 And did you discuss, for example, how involved you were becoming with Allison's family? No.
01:28:39 No. It goes on to say, "Touchy subject for his part. felt it would be good if the subject could be discussed openly and frankly between managers and field officers.
01:28:49 officers. He felt it was wrong that field officer should be given guidance which tended to preclude this option, something he had found to be a significant step forward.
01:29:02 found to be a significant step forward. First of all, does that accurately reflect what you said to DI Lambert? Yes, it does.
01:29:13 Yes, it does. And
01:29:15 And in so far as it is coded essentially are you saying you are communicating it's been a relief to be able to talk to
01:29:27 it's been a relief to be able to talk to you openly about this. Yes.
01:29:30 Yes. I think there should be more of this sort of thing. Yes. both in terms of talk and this being an option for field and cohabitation being an an option for
01:29:41 cohabitation being an an option for field officers. Yes.
01:29:45 Uh paragraph 8 says, I thanked him for his frankness and agreed to discuss the matter with HN58.
01:29:57 First of all, is that factually accurate in terms of what um he said to you?
01:30:10 Yes, it is fact. Yes, in general terms, that is factually accurate. Yeah. And secondly, did he say any more in response to your expressing the view
01:30:21 response to your expressing the view that cohabitation with a female activist ought not to be precluded uh as an option for future SDS undercover officers?
01:30:32 officers? No, he didn't say anything to me, but clearly had fed up the line because that was that was to be an option later on. I understand. When you say that was to be an option
01:30:44 When you say that was to be an option later on, you understand? Can you explain what Yeah, I think I think I might have left the unit at that point, but I think they were exploring the possibility of using um undercover female officers or, you
01:30:59 um undercover female officers or, you know, people who were police officers as partners and living in in partnership, that type of thing. Um, can we go to the end of the document, please?
01:31:11 document, please? We can see this was submitted to HN58. Um,
01:31:19 sorry. The end of that that page was what I wanted. Um, sorry. It's um page two of the file.
01:31:29 It's submitted to HM58 John W John Webb, null war, Bernard Greeny. Can you help us as to whether anybody spoke to you
01:31:40 us as to whether anybody spoke to you about
01:31:42 about what the reaction of any of those four people was to Bob Lambert raising it with them? No, nobody did.
01:31:54 I asked you earlier about HN58 knowledge. Does this jog your memory at all as to whether HN58 came to find out about your relationship
01:32:07 came to find out about your relationship with Allison or is the position still that you don't personally know? I'd never seen this document. I I didn't know that. No,
01:32:17 thank you. If we could uh take that down now uh please the financial arrangements
01:32:28 the financial arrangements you were paying Allison a monthly contribution of was it £250 a month? Yeah, it was I think it was it was the same amount that I've been paying at the the flat in Osborne Destin Road.
01:32:40 the flat in Osborne Destin Road. And can I take it that was from SDS funds?
01:32:45 funds? Yeah.
01:32:47 Yeah. Um, and in terms of standing back and looking at what you were doing, were you aware of the phrase deep swimmer at the time?
01:32:58 swimmer at the time? At the time, no. Have you become aware of it now? Become aware of it now. Yes. You were deep swimming. It would appear so. Yes. Was,
01:33:09 It would appear so. Yes. Was, however it was described, was there a feeling that to do this, to be what is what you've later learned was
01:33:20 be what is what you've later learned was called a deep swimmer, something that SDS officers aspired to? I don't think aspire is is the uh the
01:33:31 I don't think aspire is is the uh the right word to use there. I think uh it's something that you can't prescribe. You can't even recruit SDF SDS officers and know how they will, you
01:33:42 SDS officers and know how they will, you know, develop. It's all well and good being, you know, I've been described as being uh, you know, this sort of fighting aggressive type of person. You know, police officers are like that in
01:33:53 know, police officers are like that in general. Anyone can turn that on. It's having the mental strength to be able to to cope with this 24 hours a day for four or five years.
01:34:05 four or five years. You don't really know yourself that you can do it until you are actually doing it. But equally, you don't know the sort of damaging it damage it will do to you at the time. But that that wasn't a
01:34:16 at the time. But that that wasn't a consideration for me. I could handle it. Uh yes, it was a lot of pressure, but yeah, and I became what is now known as a deep swimmer. And I think there were other officers who who could probably do
01:34:28 other officers who who could probably do the same or did the same, but there certainly can think of a few that would be absolutely nowhere near capable of doing that. But was there a feeling that um
01:34:39 But was there a feeling that um being a deep swimmer was difficult uh but something to aspire to and be and it amounted to professional success. Yes, in in that sense it would have been
01:34:50 Yes, in in that sense it would have been I think everybody wants to be a success professionally. Um, if you go out, I think in the past there may have been people who who have just been happy to fogg papers and go to meetings and stuff. Well, that's that's fine, but I
01:35:01 stuff. Well, that's that's fine, but I think there's a sense of professional pride in you've got a very short space of time to make an impression and to the do the very very best you can within that target area that you've been
01:35:13 that target area that you've been assigned to. I think that's a natural thing and I was no different in that respect
01:35:17 respect and it would earn you the respect of your colleagues. Wasn't looking for that. It was my personal respect and you know for doing that job as best as I could. Even if you weren't looking for that, is
01:35:28 Even if you weren't looking for that, is that the practical consequence? I I think so. Yes.
01:35:36 At all times uh when you were with Allison, as you said yesterday, you were in your undercover identity. At all times, you were obviously a serving MPS officer.
01:35:49 MPS officer. Yes. You were being paid a salary and a fixed quoter of overtime. That's correct. Yeah. That was to account for the the long hours that you were working.
01:36:00 hours that you were working. Correct. Yeah. And so it it follows that you were being paid uh to deceive Allison sexually and
01:36:12 deceive Allison sexually and emotionally. Uh if if you put it like that. And yes, that's that's what I was getting my money for. Turning now uh to uh the relationship.
01:36:25 Turning now uh to uh the relationship. Allison was very loving towards you. She was indeed. Yeah. You benefited from regular sex. I did.
01:36:34 I did. You were wellfed. Yes, I think so. Yeah. You lived in a nice flat? Certainly. You were welcomed into her family. Yes, I was.
01:36:45 Yes, I was. You went on many nice holidays. I did. Some as a couple and some with friends. Correct.
01:36:52 Correct. She was clearly in love with you. Yes.
01:36:56 Yes. All of that obtained by deception. Correct.
01:37:01 Correct. Always in the knowledge that at some point you were going to walk out of her life.
01:37:07 life. Correct. Yes. and in the knowledge that you were depriving her of the opportunity to develop a genuine relationship with a
01:37:19 develop a genuine relationship with a real future. Correct.
01:37:22 Correct. How often did you think about that? While I was out in the field, I didn't want to think about it. I was, you know, dealing with that. Obviously, I as I got
01:37:35 dealing with that. Obviously, I as I got to know her more and more and of course, you know,
01:37:39 you know, we had a really enjoyable time. There's no two ways about it. I enjoyed being with her. It was a really really enjoyable lifestyle for me at that time. So, it wasn't I'm not trying to pretend
01:37:51 So, it wasn't I'm not trying to pretend it was it was an awful imposition on me. Far from it. It wasn't that. Um, but I didn't I I knew and this was this was always the dilemma. you know that you're
01:38:02 always the dilemma. you know that you're going to come to the end of this posting at some time. And of course, as we went on, the more the the more and more, you know, close we became. And the thought
01:38:13 know, close we became. And the thought of how that was all going to end, I just did not want to bring it into my mind. I I didn't I just put it out of my mind.
01:38:24 Despite your best efforts to put it out of your mind, were there moments when you thought about it whilst you were deployed?
01:38:33 deployed? Yes, I think so. How did you feel about it in those moments?
01:38:39 moments? I in those unguarded moments I Yes, I did feel bad about it. I'm a human being after all. Of course I did. But I you've got to suppress that. But and often by
01:38:52 got to suppress that. But and often by the in the same token I'd feel bad the way that S was being treated. Uh but again I had to suppress that as well. I mean it sounds very cold and calculating
01:39:03 mean it sounds very cold and calculating but that was the only way I could you know stay sane I think. And why did you do nothing to bring the relationship to an end
01:39:14 to bring the relationship to an end earlier than I did? because it the the benefits it was giving me uh obviously in terms of SDS coverage were exceptionally good. Uh but also I
01:39:26 exceptionally good. Uh but also I generally I generally liked um Allison. Um and it's true I I did end up loving her. There's no question of that. And I in my own mind I didn't want that to end
01:39:39 in my own mind I didn't want that to end even though it was that terrible foroding that it was going to end. It had to end. And but I I didn't want to even think about it. It was like that
01:39:50 even think about it. It was like that because it was a callous deception, wasn't it? It was a callous deception. Yeah. In one of your earlier answers a few questions back, you you made a distinction between your thinking during
01:40:01 distinction between your thinking during your deployment and you were implying your thinking changed after your deployment. Can you help us with uh how your thinking has developed over time
01:40:12 thinking has developed over time in relation to Allison? Yes, I think um obviously the whole the the thing to 1999 was a horrible year. Um I was
01:40:26 1999 was a horrible year. Um I was obviously coming off I had to sort of think of that exit strategy and and deal with all the different groups thing. But it was like this terrible foreboing that this was going to finish and I I did it
01:40:39 this was going to finish and I I did it had to finish. There was no way that it couldn't. Uh, and it did. Um, and when I came out of that of the SDS and I
01:40:50 came out of that of the SDS and I mentally I'd left Mark Cassidy behind um, on that whatever date it was in April. But the truth of it was much as I tried, of course I, you know,
01:41:03 much as I tried, of course I, you know, I was, I was thinking about the effects on her. Of course I was. As human, you know, I love the woman. and to the thought that you know how upset she must have been. Of course I was aware of that
01:41:15 have been. Of course I was aware of that and it was a horrible dilemma because at the same time of going out I then slotting back into my own family that I'd neglected and I had to I had to sort
01:41:26 I'd neglected and I had to I had to sort of rebuild my life and relationship with s as well. So I was in an awful dilemma certainly that first I think I I was given it four months or something off. I
01:41:37 given it four months or something off. I don't even know what it was. It was hellish. It was really really difficult. Um because you've got you've got no one to turn to. There's nobody to speak to about this. And you know, I look at it,
01:41:48 about this. And you know, I look at it, I look back at it and I think Christ, you know, and here's me, a person who could have got out of anything, taught my way out of anything, bullshitted for England and got away with it. I was
01:42:01 England and got away with it. I was desperately trying to think how could I bridge these two completely unbridgegable gaps in my life. You know, if I could have done that, some way of maintain contact with her just to see
01:42:13 maintain contact with her just to see that she's okay. um and then rebuilt my own life than I would have done. I really did try hard. I just could not see a way of doing that. Um and it did it made me very you
01:42:27 that. Um and it did it made me very you know I did feel very sort of depressed over that sort of time and I think you know and then as there were various contacts and and stuff that when she tried to to to contact me which again
01:42:41 tried to to to contact me which again just made me feel worse. And then as the the years went on, you know, I think it was I remember obviously they had the the payout by the the Met Police. There
01:42:54 the payout by the the Met Police. There was publicity around that, but I heard her give an interview uh or something about an interview she gave. I think it was on on Radio 4 and that was the first time that and I can't remember how long
01:43:06 time that and I can't remember how long ago that was. It was the first time I'd actually heard that she'd successfully she got married and she'd had her own family. Um, and that was a great it was
01:43:19 family. Um, and that was a great it was a sense of relief from my point of view. Um, and and and that's how it was. But it was it was absolute torment trying to imagine what it would have
01:43:32 trying to imagine what it would have been like for her. But also you know I had s to consider as well. So yeah it was a very very difficult time.
01:43:44 There came a time in 2019
01:43:48 2019 when Allison did establish contact with you as you finished walking the peney. She did. Yes. Yeah. Can you help us with your recollection
01:44:00 Can you help us with your recollection of that conversation? We are crystal clear. Um, I was walking the penite on my own and up in in North Thland. Um, now I've
01:44:13 up in in North Thland. Um, now I've never shied away from from using Facebook. It's a it's it's a way that I connect with my children. Um, and on there there was a there was a walkers
01:44:24 there there was a there was a walkers group type of thing and they mentioned, you know, they get advice as to where to stay and what conditions were, etc., etc. So, I was just, you know, marching along this. I was staying in a in a um a
01:44:35 along this. I was staying in a in a um a hotel somewhere in Northland and the fellow behind the bar gives me a shout and sat there and I wasn't in the best of moods and I'd have injured myself
01:44:46 of moods and I'd have injured myself that day and he said there was a phone call for you and my immediate thought was who knows I'm here and I thought it must have been some sort of a domestic emergency
01:44:56 emergency um because I got mobile phone obviously and then this this voice comes on and I knew it was instantly. Um, my first thing she is is Jesus Christ. I It was
01:45:08 thing she is is Jesus Christ. I It was total surprise. I go and I think instinctively I wanted to just put the phone down. But then I sort of took a breath and thought, well, yes, I let's
01:45:19 breath and thought, well, yes, I let's hear what she's got to say. And I did really for my own benefit just to see what she what she knew, what she wanted, etc., etc. So the conversation um was I
01:45:32 etc., etc. So the conversation um was I think she told me about her herself and then she was asking me a couple of questions about um there were sort of specific questions about there was an incident that she
01:45:43 about there was an incident that she recalled being in the car or the van with me and she thought we were being followed because I was looking in my my rearview mirror and she said was that Bob Lambert and I said no I don't
01:45:55 Bob Lambert and I said no I don't remember an incident like that but then she was talking Now um she asked me what do you think about you know what what's happening in the media and all this sort of thing and I was non-committal
01:46:07 of thing and I was non-committal but she and and I said you know what about you know what about you your you know your children and that and she said oh yeah well they're very beused by it all and all of this and she's very relaxed and sort of but then she's
01:46:20 relaxed and sort of but then she's trying to ask me a question I said look I'm not prepared to speak to you know not to speak to you and answer any questions about this deployment because there is an up and cominging public
01:46:31 there is an up and cominging public inquiry and that's will be the opportunity for me to to speak and I didn't want to answer any of those questions. It was all very cordial uh but and and she did try and ask me a few other questions but I wasn't going to
01:46:42 other questions but I wasn't going to answer them. Um and she did tell me that she traced uh me via Facebook and this public walking group. Um and well fair
01:46:57 public walking group. Um and well fair play to her. I mean that's you know but that's that's the way it was and yeah she just said well and I said look it she said well it could be four year five years away you know I want to know these things now I said well no it it can't
01:47:08 things now I said well no it it can't happen I will speak at the public inquiry and hopefully you'll get your answers there and that was the end of the conversation as I recall it did you agree to speak to her after the public inquiry
01:47:19 public inquiry I did say that yes but I think that was more I think I don't want to to to get her off the phone did you apologize to her. No, I didn't. Would you like to take that opportunity
01:47:31 Would you like to take that opportunity now?
01:47:32 now? I mean, this is this has been an issue and I, you know, I I would give her a personal apology. Yes. But I don't want to give a public apology. Uh because I don't I don't
01:47:45 apology. Uh because I don't I don't think this is sincere enough, but if she would be happy to speak to me, I most certainly would. Yes. And are you sorry? With hindsight, yes, of course, it was a
01:47:57 With hindsight, yes, of course, it was a cruel thing to do. Uh, I want to deal with the question of holidays. I think in the light of your answers, I may be able to deal with it
01:48:09 answers, I may be able to deal with it um quite quickly. Um, have you read Allison's witness statement on the subject of holidays?
01:48:20 statement on the subject of holidays? Um, I can't I don't think I have. So, okay. Well, I'm going to run through uh a list of of holidays and uh if you disagree.
01:48:32 disagree. Yes, I have. No, the list. Yes, they're all correct. Yeah, they're all correct. Yeah.
01:48:36 Yeah. Okay. Uh can we then go to uh 527873, please?
01:48:52 And if we go over this is um a document dated well it's the top it's the 23rd of May at the bottom it's the 28th of May 1996
01:49:04 1996 and if we expand the text
01:49:12 this is an authority for an SDS officer to work outside the Metropolitan Police District.
01:49:19 District. for you and it's saying there's a request for the organization to travel to exit by sorry requested by his
01:49:30 to exit by sorry requested by his organization to travel to exit on Monday the 27th of May for the purpose of CRC business. The officer will not remain outside the Metropolitan Police District
01:49:43 outside the Metropolitan Police District overnight. This is the May bank holiday in 1996.
01:49:48 in 1996. Um there's the authority for ex. There's some evidence from Allison that uh she was to be in Cornwall that weekend. Can you help us
01:50:01 Cornwall that weekend. Can you help us with whether you went on a trip to the southwest of England with Allison the Maybank holiday 1996? Yes, I did. Whereabouts did you go?
01:50:15 Yes, I did. Whereabouts did you go? I can only remember if it is the same trip. There was another uh work colleague of hers and her partner. If it is that trip, but it was in it was sort of north Devon. I don't remember it
01:50:27 of north Devon. I don't remember it being Cornwall. I might I might be wrong, but I do I do remember that trip if that if that was the same one. Can you help us uh with why there is an
01:50:38 Can you help us uh with why there is an authority to travel that obviously it's it's wrong. Um I've misled them there. The reason I put it in on on that particular occasion was that the van I had was a a pretty
01:50:51 that the van I had was a a pretty decrepit old van and I was concerned that it may not make it there and back and if it broke down then obviously the officer get to know. So I was basically covering myself for that eventuality.
01:51:03 covering myself for that eventuality. This is in the period when you are keeping even from Lambert that you are going on holidays with Alice. Yeah, on that thing it was I mean I these are just sort of I just regarded these sort of authorities outside the OMPD at that
01:51:16 of authorities outside the OMPD at that time as being you know I wouldn't have shouldn't have even bothered really because they were for use I would say more for specific uh tasks if I was going away with a or what specific
01:51:28 going away with a or what specific business but obviously I've dressed it up as that to cover myself but Bob wouldn't have known about that note. Can we have um 527833
01:51:39 Can we have um 527833 up?
01:51:48 This is another travel authority dated the 6 of January 1997.
01:51:56 1997. says the above named officer has been requested by his organization to travel to Cumbria, North Humbria from Sunday the 29th of December 96 to Saturday the
01:52:07 the 29th of December 96 to Saturday the 4th of January 97 for meetings will remain outside the Metropolitan District overnight. Official transport will be used. Now, in January uh 97, you went uh
01:52:23 used. Now, in January uh 97, you went uh to the Lake District with Allison, correct?
01:52:27 correct? According to the the schedule, um
01:52:31 um this by the dates this document postdates the actual trip. Can you help us with why retrospective authority is being sought? I don't know. I don't know. And again,
01:52:44 I don't know. I don't know. And again, at this stage, did Di Lambert know that you were in fact going on holiday to the Lake District with Allison? No, he wouldn't have done.
01:52:55 No, he wouldn't have done. So, you are misleading your employer as to what
01:53:00 to what Absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah.
01:53:04 Um,
01:53:10 passport. Can we take that document down now, please? You traveled on all of these holidays with Allison when you went abroad on
01:53:21 with Allison when you went abroad on your cover passport. Yes, I did. Did you in any way um take steps to conceal the fact you'd left the country on your cover passport?
01:53:34 left the country on your cover passport? No.
01:53:38 So when you went to Israel on your cover passport, it would have been apparent if your managers had inspected your passport
01:53:51 managers had inspected your passport that you'd been there. Absolutely right. Yeah. And as you've described to us, you Lambert came to know about that trip afterwards.
01:54:02 afterwards. Did your managers then ask any of your managers ask any questions about the use of your passport for going on overseas holidays with Allison?
01:54:14 holidays with Allison? No.
01:54:16 No. So if we look at the chronology, you go to Amsterdam with friends on the 28th of November 1997.
01:54:27 1997. Yeah. Was Bob Lambert aware that you were going to Amsterdam with Allison and friends?
01:54:32 friends? No, none of these. He wouldn't have been aware of any of these uh trips. Thailand and Vietnam for quite an extended period um August 98 into early September.
01:54:43 September. No, not either. No, nobody knew. Uh so if nobody knew the specifics, it is right to say though that Lambert knew by this stage that you had gone on
01:54:56 knew by this stage that you had gone on a foreign holiday with Allison and had taken no steps to prevent you continuing to do so in the future. Yes.
01:55:07 the funding of these holidays. Uh is it right that you split the costs generally speaking?
01:55:18 generally speaking? Myself and Allison. Yeah, I think that's that's correct. Yeah. Uh and the money that you are putting into that contribution, where is that
01:55:30 into that contribution, where is that coming from? That's from my own personal Mark Jenner account. Is any of it coming from SDS funds?
01:55:39 funds? No.
01:55:40 No. When you travel to places in your van, presumably that's on company petrol. That's on company petrol in a company vehicle. Exactly.
01:55:51 Exactly. Are there any other expenses claims that you are making um whilst you are on holiday
01:56:00 holiday through SDS expenses? Yes. None at all. No. Well, there is a difference between some of these short trips in the United Kingdom and the the longer foreign holidays.
01:56:11 holidays. The ones where there are authorities was we've looked at a couple and we looked at another one yesterday. Did that open the door for you to be able to make expenses claims for those
01:56:24 able to make expenses claims for those trips?
01:56:25 trips? No. No. No. No. Sorry. So for example, when you go to the Lake District, did you claim for food? No.
01:56:38 You remember that the expenses that we got were minimal. They only just covered. But I was always in dispute with the with the office to provide more money for expenses. So I was always
01:56:49 money for expenses. So I was always having to top up my own account anyway.
01:56:54 So is this a convenient time to take the morning break? Uh, we'll pause for 15 minutes.
02:15:30 Yes. Thank you, sir. Uh, we were talking about the the holidays you took. Uh, I'm getting the impression that some of the shorter breaks would have been on whilst
02:15:42 shorter breaks would have been on whilst you were at work and not part of your annual leave, the longer holidays on annual leave. Is that a fair broad distinction? It is. Yeah. For the ones where you're taking annual
02:15:54 For the ones where you're taking annual leave, there's a process, isn't there? You have to apply for annual leave. It's recorded.
02:15:59 recorded. Yeah.
02:16:00 Yeah. That sort of thing. How was that done with your managers? I was thinking this over last night and I can't remember. I don't think I would have put I'm going to Israel or
02:16:12 have put I'm going to Israel or wherever, but I would have submitted it. Um
02:16:16 Um I I doubt I would have said where I was going. I I honestly can't remember, but I would have filled out this form. This is, you know, where I'm going and for the length of time and and done it that way and they'd have filed it away.
02:16:27 way and they'd have filed it away. That's the same across the Metropolitan Police.
02:16:31 Police. Uh the other aspect of uh leave is your family. S
02:16:38 family. S Yes.
02:16:39 Yes. Um,
02:16:41 Um, can you I mean you've described a terrible family holiday in 1995 and your decision not to repeat that. Did you speak to S about future family
02:16:55 Did you speak to S about future family holidays
02:16:57 holidays in in light of that particular one? Uh, yes I did because I think I made it a pretty miserable experience for her as well. Um, and the the the children were
02:17:09 well. Um, and the the the children were quite young and it it was just a I think it wasn't a pleasant thing for her and I think I said look we can't do this and I was happy to you I don't know whether she for her to be happy about that. I
02:17:21 she for her to be happy about that. I don't know, but it was certainly um something we'd agreed to. We can't do this again. And subsequently, she went away on holiday on her own various occasions later.
02:17:35 And how much does she know about your cohabitation? And I'm going to separate it now from the sexual relation. How much does she
02:17:47 the sexual relation. How much does she know about your cohabitation with Allison
02:17:51 Allison at the time? Yeah. And she didn't as far as I was aware. And would follow. She didn't know about the sexual relationship either. Correct.
02:17:59 Correct. And uh to what extent does she know that you are using your annual leave uh to go on holiday with
02:18:12 on holiday with someone connected to your deployment? Um well she knew I was going away. Um I don't know with you as an part of annual Lee but that was as far as it went and I
02:18:23 Lee but that was as far as it went and I I think I would say to her hey I'm going with people from you know activists or whatever it was. Didn't specify who it was and that's what I was doing. Did you tell her where you were going?
02:18:36 Did you tell her where you were going? I think I did. Yeah I think so. I can't be sure of it, but yeah, certainly Israel was, but yes, there's no reason not to not to say that. And how content or not was s with
02:18:50 And how content or not was s with taking separate holidays? Um, she wasn't at that stage in the until we had to move. I think it was it was fairly straightforward because she
02:19:02 was fairly straightforward because she did have a support network where we were living in terms of family and friends. But when we had to move later, it was much more difficult for her. But then, you know, we decided that she would, you
02:19:14 you know, we decided that she would, you know, she was happy to go. She was visiting family who lived overseas. Um, so we worked around it that way. I I wouldn't say it was a happy arrangement. Of course, she she went on her own and
02:19:25 Of course, she she went on her own and with the children obviously. Um, but that was the best that we could we could do really. And she was under the impression you were making sacrifices for work.
02:19:37 were making sacrifices for work. Well, I was working essentially. That's that's what it was. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned, I think on Monday, uh, the uh, possibility of Lambert
02:19:48 uh, the uh, possibility of Lambert coming out to Amsterdam as a jolly um, ostensibly to cover you. Uh did any manager
02:20:00 manager come overseas with you in relation to any of these trips to give you any form of cover uh however uh ownorous or not
02:20:11 of cover uh however uh ownorous or not it might have been? No, they didn't. And and that that would include the act when we went to to Northern Ireland. I don't think they were allowed to send anybody over there
02:20:22 were allowed to send anybody over there that I remember that being an issue. Outside of that, no, there was no one.
02:20:32 Uh, a final question relating to holidays. You may have heard Allison's evidence. She does not have home video from the
02:20:45 She does not have home video from the Israel trip or or some World Cup footage from the same era or or some of her diaries from the same era. Did you take with you
02:20:59 the same era. Did you take with you any of Allison's home videos? Absolutely not. No. Did you take any of her diaries? No, I didn't. Uh
02:21:10 Uh can we move now to the question of your integration into Allison's family life? Have you watched the video
02:21:24 family life? Have you watched the video montage that Allison put together? Yes, I have. And you've heard Allison's evidence and read her evidence as to the degree to which you were integrated into
02:21:36 which you were integrated into Yes, I was. family life, including her extended family. Correct. Yeah. Is there anything of that that you take issue with? None at all. No. All All correct.
02:21:51 Christmas 1997.
02:21:57 You spend Christmas with Allison and her mother.
02:22:05 Okay. I I can't remember that. But the I may have got that. You spent Christmas with Allison and Allison's family. Is that right? I honestly I can't remember. We may well if if if she said that we did then I
02:22:17 if if if she said that we did then I accept it. I can't remember exactly that though.
02:22:21 though. With her
02:22:24 With her brother and brother's wife. Yeah, that that sound. Yeah, we've done that before and that also in in a at a later date. Yeah. Christmas 97. You are with Allison and
02:22:37 Christmas 97. You are with Allison and her relations. Your wife
02:22:41 Your wife and your children are presumably having Christmas on their own.
02:22:47 own. Um I I I can't remember but probably they're probably with family actually. But yes, I can see the uh where that question is coming from. Yeah, it was a
02:22:58 question is coming from. Yeah, it was a horrible dilemma. What were you thinking? Again, I tried to put all of that out out of my mind. You know, I was constant
02:23:09 out of my mind. You know, I was constant certainly from the home perspective, you know, again, as I said before, um you can't handle getting emotional about the family matters. You just got to put them
02:23:21 family matters. You just got to put them out out of your mind or you just couldn't function. And that's that's how I I coped with it. Why did you think you should spend Christmas with Allison and Allison's
02:23:32 Christmas with Allison and Allison's family and not with your real family? Because again, I mean, I was I was undercover and how do I explain to Allison or anyone else I'm disappearing
02:23:43 Allison or anyone else I'm disappearing off for Christmas time? It was just it was too late for even contemplating that. So, no, that wasn't out of the question.
02:23:54 There was a time Wson's father was ill in hospital in December 1999, wasn't there?
02:24:00 there? Yeah.
02:24:01 Yeah. Have you heard Allison's evidence and her concerns that there might have been some deliberate interference with her father's care? Uh,
02:24:15 father's care? Uh, can you help us with whether or not there was any deliberate interference to protect you? Absolutely not. I mean, nobody would have known I've gone down I dropped her
02:24:27 have known I've gone down I dropped her off down at that particular hospital.
02:24:32 The eve of the new millennium. Allison's recollection is that you were with her at the home of Allison's
02:24:45 with her at the home of Allison's brother and sister-in-law. Correct.
02:24:50 It was quite a moment, wasn't it? Certainly was a moment of reflection. What for me personally or for everybody? I'm asking you whether it was for you.
02:25:01 I'm asking you whether it was for you. Uh, yes. Obviously the the occasion meant that it was um yeah yeah yeah obviously it's a once in a lifetime thing and thinking you know this is where I need to be with my
02:25:13 this is where I need to be with my family really but I wasn't um it was all part and parcel of the you know my ex my extraction and my the rundown to the end of my deployment was looming but yeah it
02:25:25 of my deployment was looming but yeah it was a particularly unhappy time and I think it was exacerbated by the fact that this was a big occasion and I wasn't with my What was the conversation like around the table at your real home with S about
02:25:38 the table at your real home with S about that
02:25:39 that later on?
02:25:41 later on? I I
02:25:42 I I beforehand when you have to tell her you're not going to be there. I think she I think by that stage she'd expected me not to be there um because of the difficulties of me getting away
02:25:54 of the difficulties of me getting away for even an overnight would have been very difficult. So yes, I think she was she wouldn't have liked it obviously, but I didn't like it, but the com I don't don't recall an actual
02:26:05 don't don't recall an actual conversation around that event specifically. It was an accepted part of my deployment. Bearing in mind I was coming right to the end of it now. So I think we were both looking at that final
02:26:16 think we were both looking at that final flag. So yes, this was an important day uh you know as it was, but this will all be behind us in a few months. And from the point of view of Allison
02:26:30 the point of view of Allison tainting the memory of an important event with the presence of an undercover police officer. Well, yes, with the benefit of hindsight of of course, but I think that as I
02:26:42 of of course, but I think that as I recall that particular time the the were quite difficult time. the relationship was in quite poor shape at that point with all of the the you know the previous month's visit into the uh
02:26:56 previous month's visit into the uh the counseling and all the issues around the baby. Yeah, it was quite depressing. I wouldn't say it was a happy occasion that but yes I I I understand. Yeah, we I would have tainted her experience of
02:27:07 I would have tainted her experience of that millennium event. Yeah. And you use the word hindsight, but that must have been obvious to you at the time.
02:27:15 time. Yeah, of course it was. Yeah. And in terms of the state of your deceitful
02:27:24 deceitful relationship that you had started to deliberately damage that as part of your exfiltration strategy.
02:27:32 strategy. It it was part of the strategy but that's when you know it sort of merges with your own or my own sort of feelings about it as well. I mean, it's I think I I mentioned
02:27:44 well. I mean, it's I think I I mentioned it yesterday or the day before about having a this sort of textbook exit strategy um which is just you know you know it was ridiculous and I knew that
02:27:55 know it was ridiculous and I knew that there'd be no easy end to this um not simply because of the sort of relationship side but there just it just wasn't possible to finish this in any sort of pleasant way. That was genuinely
02:28:09 sort of pleasant way. That was genuinely disturbing for me. I, you know, that was, I was worried about that and how that was going to pan out and obviously the effect that was going to have on uh Allison.
02:28:19 Allison. But also wrapped around that was I think there's the issue that I think she raised in her statement um about the child's wanting to have a child which was a big issue obviously
02:28:31 child which was a big issue obviously for her and it was a also similarly big issue for me because I just did not want that at all for obvious reasons. No, I had children. I wasn't going to have
02:28:42 had children. I wasn't going to have children with her. Um, but and and that, you know, that was a very depressing time as well. So, it was where sort of reality and planned strategy sort of
02:28:53 reality and planned strategy sort of came together into a bit of a miserable uh experience, I think, for for both of us, I would imagine.
02:29:03 Less emotional territory now. Dry law. Could we have up 37894?
02:29:30 This is a property deed which you may have heard Allison give evidence about. And you are witnessing signatures in
02:29:41 And you are witnessing signatures in your cover identity. Did you what were your thoughts when you were asked to witness signatures on an
02:29:54 were asked to witness signatures on an important legal instrument? I um I I'd actually forgotten about this but you know at the time I wouldn't have given it a second thought quite honestly. No I did I was asked to do it.
02:30:05 honestly. No I did I was asked to do it. Uh, and I did it quite wrong. Quite wrong. Can we take that down now, please? Uh, Allison's mother's involvement with the
02:30:18 Allison's mother's involvement with the CRC.
02:30:20 CRC. Allison's evidence is that her mother had some minor involvement with the CRC. uh she would type up some of the handwritten minutes that we're taking at
02:30:32 handwritten minutes that we're taking at the CRC and she might help to type up some of the newsletters. Is that factually correct? It is correct. Yeah. And it would be overstating matters to
02:30:44 And it would be overstating matters to say that she was closely involved. Oh yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Could we have up 37956?
02:31:06 Uh, this is a photograph of you and Allison.
02:31:12 Allison. Uh, if you look at your left hand, were you pinching Allison when this photograph was taken?
02:31:23 It looks like it. Yeah. Yeah. Was that something you were in the habit of doing?
02:31:29 of doing? I don't know. Trying to get her to laugh. I can't I can't remember. No, it was quite a happy occasion. I'm smiling away there, but no, I I I don't know why I'd done that. I dare say she was
02:31:40 I'd done that. I dare say she was probably laughing at the same time as well. I wasn't in the regular habit of pinching her. No. Are you trying to cause her pain? They're probably trying to make a laugh or something for the benefit of the the
02:31:51 or something for the benefit of the the thing. I I would imagine innocuous. Could we take that down and have up 37906?
02:32:07 Who took the photograph?
02:32:11 I don't I don't know where where where was it taken? Well, you were there. I wasn't. Um for the purposes of my question, were
02:32:23 for the purposes of my question, were you uh with the uh way in which you are gesturing with your right hand uh trying to send a signal?
02:32:34 right hand uh trying to send a signal? Absolutely not. I'll put it broadly. Are you trying to indicate that you thought somebody was a wanker?
02:32:39 wanker? Absolutely not. Were you pinching Allison? What? At that particular time? on that button. No. Can we take that uh down now? Uh please
02:32:55 Can we take that uh down now? Uh please can we have up now 37732
02:33:02 page 61. This is Allison's witness statement to the inquiry.
02:33:10 Paragraph 7.14. Please
02:33:16 give you a moment to read that.
02:33:35 Okay. I I don't recall that incident at all. Be interested to know who that person was. Uh we can write the name down and have that uh passed up to you.
02:33:50 It's on your sheet. It's number five.
02:34:10 No. When you say no, are you saying you don't remember or are you saying it didn't happen? It didn't happen. No, I did not. Uh, she did not make a pass at me. No.
02:34:22 did not make a pass at me. No. Um,
02:34:23 Um, we think we may have uh made a mistake as to the person and I'm going to have that name passed up to you. If you could show it to the chairman first, please.
02:34:40 Thank you.
02:34:47 No, absolutely not. Are you sure that you never told Allison that that second name, the the woman in question, had made a pass
02:34:58 the woman in question, had made a pass at you? No. Or anything to that effect? No, not at all. Can we take that down now, please? Uh, was there an occasion uh when you
02:35:11 Uh, was there an occasion uh when you said something to the effect they told me the left in London was a knocking shop?
02:35:22 I I allegedly said that to somebody. I don't
02:35:26 don't to.
02:35:27 to. No, I don't remember that. No. Was there a view within the SDS that the left in London was a knocking shop? No. No, it wasn't.
02:35:39 No. No, it wasn't. Was there a view that the left in London had very liberal sexual values? I think in certain quarters I think that's a fair comment. Yes.
02:35:50 that's a fair comment. Yes. And that the women in left-wing groups were likely to be promiscuous. No, I wouldn't go as far as that, but there certainly somewhere, but not as a generalization.
02:36:01 generalization. How far would you go? Um, yeah, I mean, promise you there's a lot of, you know, looking at people, um, of a certain age, 20s, early 30s, single
02:36:12 of a certain age, 20s, early 30s, single people, uh, working in or being involved in sort of close political organizations in various, you know, various, uh, fields. Of course there's going to be
02:36:23 fields. Of course there's going to be relationships in that in in you know fleeting ones or whatever that you they are that happens. That's an environment where you would expected to happen. So
02:36:34 where you would expected to happen. So yeah there was that was an attitude certainly
02:36:37 certainly and in my experience that that was the case. Yeah. Drugs. Uh Allison's evidence was that you brought back some cannabis seeds
02:36:48 you brought back some cannabis seeds from Amsterdam to grow in the cellar of the flat.
02:36:53 the flat. Correct. Yes, I did notice you had smuggled them in. I didn't smuggle them in. I brought them in. It's not illegal to bring cannabis seeds into the country.
02:37:02 country. And Ess's evidence was that you brought cannabis uh to your your real home. Uh yeah, I brought a spliff back, I think. Yeah.
02:37:14 think. Yeah. Um,
02:37:15 Um, I was a regular smoker of it as a result of your deployment. Yes. Yeah. Your credit card. Oh, yeah.
02:37:27 Oh, yeah. In November 1997, Allison finds it. Yes.
02:37:33 Yes. And you
02:37:36 And you fabricate a story to cover your back. That's right. She cut the credit card up.
02:37:44 up. I did or she did. Yes. Yeah. Sloppy trade craft. Uh yeah, ultimately yes, it was. But I I you know, obviously I went over the the circumstances of it and I I know how it
02:37:56 circumstances of it and I I know how it happened, but ultimately yes, that was my fault. Um but, you know, I dealt with it.
02:38:04 it. Did Allison's mother lend you a sum of money? No, she did not. £1,500?
02:38:11 £1,500? Absolutely not. I think I remember that if that was the case. I had no need to borrow money from anybody. Did you leave your deployment owing anyone you had mixed with undercover
02:38:22 anyone you had mixed with undercover money?
02:38:23 money? Well, the only person that I would have owed money to had been Allison, which had been or back rent, I suppose, because when I I first when I first went
02:38:34 because when I I first when I first went away, I was away for a week or something. And then when I finished probably two months probably two months worth of rent I would have owed her. And did you am I understanding from that
02:38:45 And did you am I understanding from that that you never paid that? I didn't pay that. No. No.
02:38:53 Is it right that from about 1998 it became clear that Allison wanted to start a family? Yeah. It round about then. Yes. She was
02:39:05 Yeah. It round about then. Yes. She was talking about it. Yeah. And
02:39:11 you told her that you did want to have children with her, but not just yet. No, I think I was. Yeah, I was holding her off effectively.
02:39:22 her off effectively. Did you say it was too early to throw in the towel? It sounds like something I would have said. Yes. Yeah. And repeatedly shut down the conversation whenever the issue was raised.
02:39:33 whenever the issue was raised. Correct. Yeah.
02:39:37 This is quite a serious moment, isn't it? You have got your real family. You have the benefit of being the parent of children.
02:39:49 children. Allison has a natural wish to start a family with the man that she loves. And you are deliberately stringing her
02:40:00 And you are deliberately stringing her along.
02:40:01 along. Correct.
02:40:03 Correct. and wasting uh fertile years. That is the reality of it. Yes. Did that prompt you to think
02:40:15 Did that prompt you to think that you perhaps ought to consider ending the relationship? Yes, it did. Yeah. What did you think?
02:40:26 What did you think? I thought it could I think in my own mind at the time I I felt that if I made a case for not wanting uh children um she'd get fed up with me eventually
02:40:39 um she'd get fed up with me eventually and say well you know that's it. I did think that. So I try to put the ball in her court in that respect but that didn't work. Um so I it never occurred
02:40:50 didn't work. Um so I it never occurred to me at that time. I think well even into through 99 and when up until the point when we went to this counseling thing um I thought I'm just going to I'm
02:41:01 thing um I thought I'm just going to I'm just have to keep going. I just have to keep going. Um but it was yeah it was it was very difficult and yes of course it's very upsetting for her too. Did you speak to anybody in management
02:41:14 Did you speak to anybody in management about this development? No.
02:41:18 No. And you said you were trying to put the ball in her court when it became clear to you that she wasn't going to end the relationship
02:41:29 relationship on this issue. Why didn't you? I think because I it was very selfish. I'm looking after number one. Um, at that time I think the the visits to the
02:41:43 that time I think the the visits to the uh counseling sessions which I was pretty hostile about, but it was all to do with this the wanting children and stuff. Um, that I thought well that
02:41:54 stuff. Um, that I thought well that would would buy me more time but I was actually feeling quite and it's all part of this where I said before the exit strategy where sort of reality bites
02:42:05 strategy where sort of reality bites into the sort of SDS world. I was feeling, you know, pretty pretty down at the time about the whole thing. And the thought of just saying, "Right, that's it. I'm done." And going would have presented in my mind at the time far
02:42:18 presented in my mind at the time far more problems for me personally with with obviously no disregard to Allison in that respect. Yeah.
02:42:27 Yeah. As we're going through 98 and into 99, we're moving into territory where the Colin Roach Center has wound up. Your credentials are extremely
02:42:39 credentials are extremely well established with your targets. You don't need you're not getting any advantage from being with Allison from the point of
02:42:50 being with Allison from the point of view of your cover, are you? Well, I felt I was because to have that certainly you look at organizations such as uh Red Action,
02:43:02 as uh Red Action, it's an anomaly there. these are very violent people but by and large they're quite conservative in outlook you know somebody who has a wellestablished home and all the rest of it was was useful
02:43:14 and all the rest of it was was useful and even at that stage I could get away with not going to a particular meeting or something I just I had a bit of a domestic oh right okay no problem and that was the way it was so well
02:43:25 that was the way it was so well entrenched was my identity at Allison's address I mean you know it would I needed it I needed to be there. They could contact me. They'd actually some sometime one or
02:43:37 me. They'd actually some sometime one or two of them actually came around to the place. So, yeah, it was just it was just too convenient. I didn't want to let that go.
02:43:43 that go. Can I Well, putting aside what you wanted cuz you've made very clear you were looking after number one. Yeah.
02:43:51 Yeah. In terms of what you could have done, you could have ended the relationship, gone back into a bedsit. You would have had a mobile phone by that stage.
02:44:02 had a mobile phone by that stage. contact not an issue and you would have been known as a man who uh had very wellestablished credentials. Yeah.
02:44:11 Yeah. On the left you did not need the relationship. Correct. Yeah, that's right. So can we say essentially from this stage
02:44:23 from this stage that the primary benefit you were getting
02:44:28 getting from being with Allison was your own comfort and satisfaction whilst continuing your undercover deployment. Yes. And obviously being with Allison
02:44:41 Yes. And obviously being with Allison was important as well. I didn't, you know, I didn't want to uh break up with her as such, but at the cost of continuing to deny
02:44:53 but at the cost of continuing to deny Allison the opportunity to form a real relationship whilst her biological clock was ticking. Yes.
02:45:05 That was an extremely cruel thing to do to Allison, wasn't it? Yeah, I agree. Yes, it was.
02:45:16 Was there a point in time when you came back to Allison's flat after pretending to be at work or being
02:45:27 after pretending to be at work or being at work and uh talking about something nearly blowing up the flats you were purporting to work on
02:45:39 you were purporting to work on something to do with an oven being fitted improperly. No, I can't remember that. No. Was there any time at which you had a
02:45:52 Was there any time at which you had a conversation with Allison in coded language
02:45:56 language um which was in fact mirroring any drama about trial birth in your real identity? Not that I can remember. No.
02:46:15 want to move on to the counseling. You
02:46:23 You have couple counseling with Allison through relate starting in about early 1999. Yeah, I read I read that in her in her uh
02:46:34 read I read that in her in her uh statement, but my recollection was it was I think we went over to Amsterdam for a holiday in August of 99 and I thought it started after that. I thought
02:46:45 thought it started after that. I thought it was in September. That was that was my recollection of it. I don't think it was any earlier than that. and you continue to ma maintain your line of essentially
02:46:58 line of essentially fobbing Allison off. Yeah, that was the the reason for it. Yeah. But as I think, you know, as I've thought about that over the years, I was I was really reluctant to go to a
02:47:10 I was really reluctant to go to a counselor and I thought of counseling on any sort of level uh you know sends shivers down my spine. But at that time uh when I did agree to go I found it
02:47:22 uh when I did agree to go I found it quite sort of cathartic actually which might sound very bizarre but it also gave me a chance to is actually having my whole backstory exploited
02:47:34 exploited uh you know my sort of exploit I had to pour all that out in front of Allison a complete stranger. So it was under the minutest scrutiny and I think in doing that I did reveal a bit of bit of myself
02:47:48 that I did reveal a bit of bit of myself which well perhaps I shouldn't have done but I think the net position for me it was quite cynical I suppose is that I had the counselor over and she thought I
02:48:01 had the counselor over and she thought I was a bit barmy that was my my impression. You thought you were doing your job well.
02:48:08 well. Yeah. It's an unpleasant thing to say, but yes, I think I did on that occasion. I want to now contrast that with your
02:48:19 I want to now contrast that with your relationship with S.
02:48:24 Her evidence was that she was never able to persuade you to have any counseling. Uh, probably. Yeah. Yeah, I think there was a Yes, I I I I can't remember having
02:48:36 was a Yes, I I I I can't remember having that conversation, but yeah, that is consistent with what I would say. Yeah. So, why is it you will go to counseling with Allison,
02:48:47 with Allison, take professional satisfaction from having the counselor over, but you won't go to counseling in your real life to
02:48:58 go to counseling in your real life to try and address the problems in your marriage? Well, I I I'm not particularly fond of counseling and and the benefits of that.
02:49:06 of that. But you did just say that you found it cathartic. I did at that time, but then again, you know, I'm being somebody else, completely somebody else, but I've also I'm almost got a foot in both worlds at
02:49:18 I'm almost got a foot in both worlds at that point. You know, it's it was, you know, mentally it was quite it was quite a difficult time. So it was quite useful to be able to to talk to a complete stranger about that because there was
02:49:30 stranger about that because there was nobody I could speak to at that level.
02:49:37 Staying with the theme of of S and your pattern of life undercover, you were able to spend a good deal of time at your real home, especially
02:49:51 time at your real home, especially during weekdays. Yes.
02:49:53 Yes. And you did therefore see quite a lot of her and your children. Yes, apart from the various abstractions for meetings, but yes, I did I did manage to do that. Coming back to the
02:50:06 manage to do that. Coming back to the question of holidays,
02:50:10 Essa's evidence is that she was shocked to hear that you had used your annual leave
02:50:20 leave for holidays with Allison.
02:50:25 What is your reaction to that? Well, I'm not surprised. I mean, she didn't really understand the dynamics of it all uh in that respect, you know. Well, I should have gone on holiday with her. Well, there were reasons, as I've
02:50:37 her. Well, there were reasons, as I've already stated, why that wasn't practicable. Um, but yes, I mean, of course, she's shocked. She she missed me. Uh, I wasn't around when I when I should have been, but because of the
02:50:49 should have been, but because of the constraints of the job I was doing, I I wasn't. And, you know, I bitterly regret that.
02:50:54 that. How did money work in your marriage with S?
02:51:00 S? Uh, I think we had a joint account. Um, all my wages went into that and I I would take out what I needed to cover any additionals uh with the SDS, but
02:51:13 any additionals uh with the SDS, but apart from that, she did what she wanted with it.
02:51:16 with it. So, is your evidence that the money you used to pay for holidays with Allison was taken from your joint account?
02:51:28 was taken from your joint account? Yes. Well, that's where my wages were going.
02:51:34 S has said she was also shocked that money
02:51:38 money had been your money had been used to fund holidays with Allison. Can is your recollection that she knew
02:51:50 Can is your recollection that she knew or did not know that money you were earning or money from the joint account was being used to fund your holidays with Alison?
02:52:03 fund your holidays with Alison? I don't think she did know that. No. If it was a joint account, how is it that she didn't know? I don't know. I so I didn't you apart from taking cash out from the from it uh
02:52:15 from taking cash out from the from it uh periodically I didn't really have any control over that she was you know accessed it on her own I don't know why that wasn't picked up who was looking at the bank statements
02:52:26 who was looking at the bank statements when they came in it would have been well I would have looked at it but in both our names as I recall it so we both had access to it want to know who in practice was looking at them
02:52:37 at them um well either of us I the things was addressed to both of us, but you I'd look at them, but to be honest, I at that stage I really looking I was earning decent money. I didn't sort of
02:52:49 earning decent money. I didn't sort of keep an eye on the, you know, what was in there. All of the bills and stuff were obviously direct debit. So, no, I don't I I couldn't say yes, I always opened it or she always opened it. It
02:53:01 opened it or she always opened it. It was sometimes it didn't get opened at all.
02:53:05 all. Was S earning at any point during your deployment? Um,
02:53:14 no. No, she wasn't, as far as I'm aware. No.
02:53:17 No. Was all the money that went into the joint account earned by you? Yes.
02:53:28 You went to a number of SDS uh Christmas parties
02:53:33 parties with S, didn't you? Uh, we certainly went to two. Yes, I remember
02:53:39 remember her recollection is one in Morton in Marsh, one in Rutland, and one in the New Forest. Okay. Yeah. Three then. Yeah. When you are at those Christmas parties,
02:53:55 When you are at those Christmas parties, a number of your colleagues know that you are having a sexual relationship with Allison. Yes.
02:54:04 Yes. And are in fact living with her. Yes.
02:54:09 Yes. Bob Lambert knows. Yes.
02:54:11 Yes. And we will be exploring in due course. It may be others new too. Yep.
02:54:20 And you are circulating with S at these parties. She does not know of your deception of
02:54:31 She does not know of your deception of her. They do. Yes.
02:54:35 Yes. That must have been pretty awkward for you.
02:54:37 you. Uh, no it wasn't. Why not?
02:54:40 Why not? I think it wouldn't even occurred to me that that was an issue. This was a pure uh family occasion. Um, I I didn't even give it a thought that it was awkward at
02:54:51 give it a thought that it was awkward at all. Um, and even in hindsight, it it would appear that other people had various sort of backgrounds to me anyways. But it it wasn't it wasn't that
02:55:02 anyways. But it it wasn't it wasn't that sort of situation at all. I didn't think it was awkward. No. Why didn't you think it was awkward to have at a social event your wife when others knew that you were
02:55:13 your wife when others knew that you were betraying her? Uh because it wasn't awkward. It was it was a social event. We didn't discuss uh the the job at all in generally speaking. It was just a social.
02:55:26 speaking. It was just a social. Your treatment of s taken as a whole was a gross betrayal, wasn't it? To put it mildly, yes.
02:55:41 To quote her words, appalling, unconscionable, and unacceptable. I think that's fair point. Yep. Her
02:55:54 I think that's fair point. Yep. Her evidence was that misogyny starts at home. In your case, that's true, isn't it?
02:56:06 I don't understand your coming from attitude towards her, thinking it was okay. Yeah.
02:56:16 Yeah. to cheat on her without telling her, without discussing it with her, to use joint funds without any discussion of her, and to put it
02:56:29 any discussion of her, and to put it frankly, treating her like a doormat. Yes, I think that that is a fair comment, but I would say that, you know, she did know that I was I was I was leading a double life completely. that
02:56:40 leading a double life completely. that doesn't mitigate the what what her thoughts were on that. But I kept deliberately kept as much as I could from her what I was getting up to on the SDS field. That was a conscious decision
02:56:51 SDS field. That was a conscious decision by me. But of course with hindsight, yes, she is going to feel that way and I don't blame her. Well, it's not just her feelings.
02:57:04 Well, it's not just her feelings. That is how you treated her, isn't it? It is how I treated her. Yes. The way she described it was that personal gratification
02:57:15 personal gratification and careers took precedence. And again, in your case, personal gratification and your police career did
02:57:26 gratification and your police career did take precedence. They did. Yes.
02:57:34 When Allison traced
02:57:39 your children's birth certificates in the course of trying to find you.
02:57:48 One of your children has a birth certificate which records their father's occupation as a joiner.
02:57:58 Why does the birth certificate of your child
02:58:06 bear the job description of your cover personality because at that particular time that's
02:58:17 because at that particular time that's what I did and when registered that uh that birth I was it was Mark Cassidy so and I think it was also I didn't want to
02:58:28 and I think it was also I didn't want to where I was living at the time. I didn't want to allude to the fact that I was a police officer.
02:58:37 You weren't a joiner. You were a police officer.
02:58:39 officer. I was a police officer. Yeah. But I wasn't going to stand up in that particular uh council room looking as I was and made it make it known that I was a police officer.
02:58:55 Can we move now to your withdrawal strategy? If we could have up tab B62, that's MPS302741.
02:59:21 Uh this is your withdrawal strategy. Uh if we go to page three please,
02:59:31 we can see that it bears Sergeant Titty's initials at the end and it's being circulated for comments to HN58, HN53,
02:59:42 HN53, Sergeant War, and Sergeant Greeny. How much input did you have into this document? Uh, none at all. I mean, when I dis you, I
02:59:56 none at all. I mean, when I dis you, I remember getting called to a meeting with I think it was an HN58 and Steve Titty basically to talk about my thoughts on
03:00:08 basically to talk about my thoughts on the best way of um extracting myself from this. Um, and on the back of that, uh, DSTD has gone off and made a a
03:00:19 uh, DSTD has gone off and made a a summary of of this, and which I I hadn't seen I hadn't seen until this appeared in the evidence bundles and and and this is what it was. Could we have a look at page one,
03:00:30 Could we have a look at page one, please?
03:00:33 And if we look at the third paragraph down, first of all,
03:00:44 DS has for some time lived in shared accommodation, and over the past few weeks, he has slowly but surely begun displaying overt signs of antisocial behavior. This part of the sherade
03:00:56 behavior. This part of the sherade includes short-temperedness, grumpiness, and a general attitude of disdain and dislike to other housemates. In the week leading up to Christmas, this type of behavior will snowball into
03:01:09 this type of behavior will snowball into outright hostility and provoke the kind of outbursts that will lead to touchy subject, leaving the address to go live short term in South London.
03:01:21 short term in South London. So where has Sergeant Titty got that information from? I I don't know. I mean the part of it is is correct. You know, he sort of it was
03:01:32 is correct. You know, he sort of it was more of a he's put short-tempered and grumpiness. It's a bit more than that. It's a bit of um hesitate use depression, but like depressive behavior.
03:01:43 depressive behavior. uh again the the lead leading up to Christmas
03:01:48 Christmas and this the short term in South London. No idea what that where that's come from at all. No, that's not what I discussed uh previously with the the management.
03:02:01 First of all, accommodation
03:02:05 lived in shared accommodation. Did Sergeant Titty know when managing your withdrawal uh that uh you were living in a flat
03:02:17 uh that uh you were living in a flat with Allison? He's Well, I by the looks of it he didn't, but I can't see how that would be the case given he was working with. Well,
03:02:28 Well, what I'm really asking you is is this more covering up in written documents? Well, no. I don't I you know and he
03:02:39 Well, no. I don't I you know and he won't thank me for this but I don't think that uh Steve Titty is the sort of person who would be able to successfully do something like that. Um
03:02:50 do something like that. Um no I I wouldn't say it's as it's as complex as that using the phrase shared accommodation is ambiguous isn't it? It is. Yeah it is. And that harks back to well the that original um the thing
03:03:03 to well the that original um the thing we discussed this morning uh with the the floor plan. So whether that he's got that from that I I don't know. It go there's there's more to come on this subject but um your recollection
03:03:14 this subject but um your recollection now did Sergeant Titty know that the truth was you were living in a flat with Allison as a couple? I I don't know but I wouldn't have
03:03:25 I I don't know but I wouldn't have thought so.
03:03:31 Second, your actual conduct up to
03:03:37 up to Christmas. You you feain a mental breakdown effectively. Well, not a breakdown. It was a Yeah, that effectively. It was just It was a a depression. Not a complete mental
03:03:49 depression. Not a complete mental breakdown. No, mental distress. That's more like it. Yeah.
03:03:57 Do you do that all of a sudden? No.
03:04:02 No. And when do you start doing it? Again, this as I said before, I would say that came into to when we came back from uh Amsterdam. So, it been sort of
03:04:15 from uh Amsterdam. So, it been sort of from September onwards. And this is when the pressure of the you know the children uh things was coming on. And yes, that was it was causing mental
03:04:26 yes, that was it was causing mental anxiety as I said before linked with the fact that I was leaving and I didn't want to leave Allison at that stage and all of those things. So it was it was a bit of a stress overload
03:04:38 it was it was a bit of a stress overload time at that time. Allison's evidence is that you did not appear to her to be depressed during the autumn.
03:04:48 autumn. Okay. I obviously I hid it too well.
03:04:56 I take it from your answers in relation to Sergeant Ti Titty that you did not personally tell him about your living arrangements. Absolutely. I wouldn't have done anyway.
03:05:07 Absolutely. I wouldn't have done anyway. No.
03:05:07 No. Can you help us with why you would not have trusted Sergeant Titty with that information? I mean, well, I think he was known to be a little bit indiscreet. I just did call
03:05:19 a little bit indiscreet. I just did call him. I don't when he when I um mentioned yesterday during the the telephone call that I Allison picked up overnight
03:05:32 that I Allison picked up overnight um
03:17:14 for the things I haven't. What were the things that you hadn't done? Well, I hadn't been honest with her certainly, but I I can't honestly can't remember the things I hadn't done. I you
03:17:26 remember the things I hadn't done. I you know, I I hadn't been the person that she thought I was. I think essentially is what I was trying to say. There was a phrase uh that somebody
03:17:37 was a phrase uh that somebody recommended you put in. Not at all. I wrote this completely of my own valition. Did you have any tips or guidance as to how to write this sort of letter? No, this was a completely personal
03:17:48 No, this was a completely personal letter.
03:17:49 letter. When you wrote that phrase, were you actually thinking um about what you'd done and not done or were you just writing anything that would achieve the aims we outlined?
03:18:00 aims we outlined? No. This this was how I felt at the time completely. Can we take that down and can we have up please 37964?
03:18:16 This is uh a second letter dated the 11th of April 2000. Again, are you familiar with the contents? Uh
03:18:27 Uh yeah, mostly. Yeah. If we could go to page two, please.
03:18:35 And the PS. Yeah.
03:18:39 Yeah. Take care. Be strong. I am always thinking of you. Yes.
03:18:50 Yes. That plays with her emotions, doesn't it?
03:18:54 it? Yes.
03:18:56 Yes. and in the circumstances was simply stringing her along. I think um yes on the face of it it does but in the we were talking about when is
03:19:10 but in the we were talking about when is this April I I left then or it was just on the cusp of leaving and in those first couple of weeks after deployment I did I I I thought about her all the time
03:19:22 did I I I thought about her all the time and the and the effect that that she was having but I had no way of contacting her. So yeah, I mean that was although she might not accept it but yes it was that that's what I was doing.
03:19:35 that that's what I was doing. Can we take that down now please? And can we have 37947?
03:19:46 This is a third letter 10th of May 2000. Again, its purpose is to further your exfiltration strategy, isn't it?
03:19:59 your exfiltration strategy, isn't it? Yes.
03:19:59 Yes. If we could have page two towards the the last few lines, please, the last paragraph.
03:20:21 I am sorry I have hurt you. I didn't mean to, but you have a different agenda than me. You said yourself things can't be like they were between us. And that I
03:20:32 be like they were between us. And that I had to
03:20:34 had to Does that say grow up? Grow up. Yeah. Well, you were right. But I couldn't face all that. What a wanker. I know. I realize that I have hurt a lot of people
03:20:47 realize that I have hurt a lot of people though
03:20:49 though through
03:20:50 through through what I've done to you. But I can only say
03:20:55 only say I am not a cunning evil bastard as many must now think. But I felt desperate, alone, and
03:21:06 But I felt desperate, alone, and frightened. I hope that privacy didn't think. I'll stop there. I can only say that I am not a cunning evil bastard. Do you maintain that
03:21:19 evil bastard. Do you maintain that denial now? That I I'm not well I clearly I was um I'm not denying that at all. Of course I was. But I just I felt just to
03:21:32 course I was. But I just I felt just to put some flesh onto that at that particular time when I wrote that I you know I love this woman and I I did feel absolutely horrible and I knew that
03:21:43 absolutely horrible and I knew that someday
03:21:45 someday that's you know she would think the worst of me. So I was I was simply preempting that. But yeah essentially I I was a a cunning evil bastard. I accept
03:21:56 I was a a cunning evil bastard. I accept that wrong but that's the way it was. Uh sir, I'm moving on to another topic. May we rise for lunch? Certainly. Um so that um we can all
03:22:08 Certainly. Um so that um we can all understand uh what is going to happen this afternoon. Um roughly how much longer do you have with your own questions? Uh I would have thought perhaps an hour.
03:22:19 Uh I would have thought perhaps an hour. Yeah. And then there is the uh rule 10 process. There may be re-examination. Yeah. Uh, and there's also, I understand, there's been an application
03:22:30 understand, there's been an application to cross-examine which you've considered. Um, I I haven't um had that put to me yet, but I'm aware of the possibility. Um, we'll um resume at 5 to 2, please.
03:22:44 Um, we'll um resume at 5 to 2, please. All right.