Afternoon session of testimony from HN122 'Neil Richardson', an undercover officer who infiltrated the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) and later Class War Federation from 1989-1993. Extensive questioning about the justification for infiltration, particularly after the RCP was deemed to pose insufficient threat to national security, personal data collection practices, and his redeployment to Class War.
00:25:57 e e
00:27:00 forg me as at the start of every um major part of the hearing day uh I must remind those who have uh mobile devices that they may use them to transmit what is going on in the hearing room uh to the outside world after 10 minutes of elaps since the event that they're describing that to to fit in
00:27:15 they're describing that to to fit in with the uh 10minute delay on the uh live
00:27:20 live stream the devices may not be used to record proceedings or take photographs yes Mr h122 good afternoon um once you established in the field um how
00:27:35 how handson uh were the SDS Management in terms of how you conducted your deployment day today it would be for me to decide what was appropriate uh but it
00:27:47 to decide what was appropriate uh but it would always be in consultation if there was something underw with the manager uh did management ever seek specific information from
00:27:59 specific information from you yes from time to time there would be an inquiry as to whether I knew a certain person or what I knew about an
00:28:15 event um being careful as to any sensitivities how would um any query for you ordinarily be communicated normally at one of the two regular meetings uh after a round robin
00:28:30 regular meetings uh after a round robin session then you'd be taken aside and uh it would be communicated verbally all right we'll address those in due cause um in your witness statement I think you say that you would consider whether any question uh from
00:28:43 whether any question uh from management um asked about your targets went beyond the legal and ethical boundaries of police work do do you remember saying that no all right let's bring it up so it's page um 19 paragraph 64
00:29:11 so paragraph 63 you uh tell us that the managers might give you particular questions on which they needed a response and then at 64 you say it was a two-way process I'd consider whether the question was one to which I could provide an answer in a way that was
00:29:23 provide an answer in a way that was consistent with my Legend and which not and which did not go beyond the legal and ethical boundaries of police work as I understood them if it had not satisfied these criteria I would have told my managers as much it was about protecting myself personally uh as an
00:29:37 protecting myself personally uh as an intelligent G Gathering asset in in long term does that refresh your memory yes um I think it that's an answer I gave in response to a question about going Beyond legal and ethical
00:29:50 about going Beyond legal and ethical boundaries I'm not trying to suggest I was ever asked
00:30:01 to all right um did you uh in your own mind have any idea of what those legal and ethical boundaries were well as I say I think as I recall that was in response to a question phrased in those terms and I that's the answer I gave all right uh would you
00:30:18 answer I gave all right uh would you apply your mind if you were if you were tasked to find out a certain bit of communication bit of information forgive me would you would you apply your own mind as to whether ethic Al that was
00:30:29 mind as to whether ethic Al that was appropriate I don't think the situation ever arose nor would I have expected it to
00:30:37 legally
00:30:48 likewise thank you now you say uh in your witness statement that there were occasions when you were asked to find out more about a group that was peripheral uh to one of
00:31:00 group that was peripheral uh to one of your core groups or considered to be a front organization do you remember that I have to see the context I'm afraid okay paragraph 65 this
00:31:13 time so as has dealt with in more detail below there are definitely occasions when I was asked to find out more about peripheral groups or front organizations but these were exclusively based on opportunities that presented
00:31:25 based on opportunities that presented themselves to me uh and where uh I was comfortable in relative terms at the potential benefit justify the additional risk I was not directed towards organizations which did not have some
00:31:36 organizations which did not have some for form of link to either the RCP or all class war does that help refresh your memory yes now I think later in your witness statement you give the specific example of the Irish Freedom
00:31:53 specific example of the Irish Freedom Movement ifm being considered as a front group to the RCP do you remember giving that example yes and I think you go on to say in that statement that uh you required the approval of SDS managers in order to attend one of their events do you remember saying that
00:32:14 yes uh does it follow that there were occasions uh when your targeting might have extended to groups that were not your core D core groups or or was it always limited to the r limited to the RCP or class war no I think if another organization
00:32:25 war no I think if another organization or group had become involved in an event say there would be an opportunity for me to engage in conversation with those individuals I may not know how relevant
00:32:41 individuals I may not know how relevant that group was and therefore I would ask advice on
00:32:42 advice on it advice from whom SCS management yes
00:32:55 it advice from whom SCS management yes yes um when it came to attending events that were not directly related to your core group did did you require management approval uh I don't know approvable but I would certainly discuss it with them as to whether it was a benefit or or not all
00:33:07 whether it was a benefit or or not all right and would you always seek to have those sorts of discussions
00:33:17 yes um you say in your witness statement that you believe more questions were asked by your managers in respect of class war than than the RCP do you remember saying
00:33:31 remember saying that not specifically but yes I may well have done all right do do you know why more questions were asked about class war than the other group I I think purely because they were more active uh in a more concerning manner now you've just touched on that
00:33:43 manner now you've just touched on that when you were in the field there would be uh
00:33:52 be uh meetings twice a week is that right yes uh and I think it's common ground that that would involve other undercover officers and managers within the SS at one of the two SS safe houses or flats that they would have had in operation at the time that's
00:34:08 correct and you had round robin discussions is that right yes in individually we would give an update of what we were doing in
00:34:20 an update of what we were doing in general terms uh what upcoming events there were and so
00:34:30 on um you said in your witness statement that these meetings provided an opportunity to to share examples do you remember saying that examples of what sorry well that's what you you just say examples that was going to be my
00:34:44 examples that was going to be my question can you remember what you meant when you refer to examples being shared examples of difficulties in maintaining cover or U
00:34:55 U uh General daytoday op operation um you also mentioned that uh at the meeting's occasional vignettes to
00:35:13 at the meeting's occasional vignettes to illustrate some piece of advice what was shared um did these ever extend to the possibility of sexual relationships
00:35:28 no something else you mentioned was that at the meetings um was that the managers would assess each undercover officer's welfare and and state of mind uh can you remember how they went about doing that um as far as I was aware by observation and uh if they felt
00:35:42 observation and uh if they felt appropriate they could take them aside and speak to them would you ever have had one-on-one time with your managers during these meetings from time to time if an issue arose
00:36:00 yes uh you described the meetings as informal and sometimes involving a social aspect or or or going for a drink afterwards do you remember giving that description in the witness
00:36:13 statement we're operational matters ever discussed in the social context no what sort of things say for example if um people went for a drink what sort of things would be spoken
00:36:24 of things would be spoken about oh it might be uh family or Hobbies or or same as anybody's going to the pub would speak about women ever spoken
00:36:35 spoken about possibly can you remember have you ever heard anything derogatory or sexist in that context
00:36:54 no I think it's right that you deploy towards the end of 199 1989 and your deployment concluded around September 1993 is that
00:37:07 concluded around September 1993 is that right that's right all right can we just look at a document please which is a B1 17 of the hard copy bundle it's ucpi 26278
00:37:32 now this is a um security um service document a loose minute which Bears uh your unique identifier which is ciphered at the top right of the document and we can see under the
00:37:45 document and we can see under the heading revolutionary Communist party it says the review of RCP is now been completed and that has been decided that it poses an insufficient threat to National Security to Warrant further investigation by uh
00:38:03 investigation by uh F2 uh and in manuscript at the bottom left of that document there's a note that says I'll stop these reports awaiting reply from G Branch officer before doing so document is dated November 16th of November
00:38:19 1990 was this assessment ever communicated to
00:38:30 communicated to you uh the only first and only time I was aware of it was uh when the inspector informed me that no longer uh continuing coverage and um was that around November 1990 or was that later no that was
00:38:52 later looking back at what you were doing uh in November 1990 would you say that were it were that was an accurate assessment uh that the uh RCP um POS an in sufficient threat to National
00:38:59 National Security it wasn't my role to uh assess their threat to National Security in as a whole I was only privy to the information I was gathering in my
00:39:15 information I was gathering in my particular area you say you formed no opinion at all as to the group that you'd infiltrated well again their security threat I'm led to believe now that this was at the time when the definition of subversion was
00:39:28 modified did you have any View at that time as to whether the RCP was a threat to National Security or not at that time I had no doubt that they were a threat
00:39:48 yes can we look please at ucpi 2760 it's b19 of the hard copy bundle
00:40:10 it's another Security Service uh file note uh dated the 19th of February 1991 I just want to look at what it says under uh your Cipher there bottom of the page on
00:40:17 page on page uh
00:40:20 page uh one uh going on to page two it says I informed hsds that F2 had discontinued their study of the Revolutionary Communist Party
00:40:31 Communist Party um on the grounds that they were no longer considered a significant subversive threat however uh T was still interested in any Irish reports steming
00:40:42 interested in any Irish reports steming um from the RCP front organization Irish Freedom Movement I've been chasing T Branch uh officer for a reply uh to my LM I think that's loose minute of the
00:40:57 LM I think that's loose minute of the 11th of December on hm1 122's file I'd finally received oral confirmation on the 11th of February that Branch did want ifm reports I asked hsds if it would be possible to send only Irish reports but if it were not then to send all hm1 122's reports and I would weed
00:41:10 all hm1 122's reports and I would weed out the RCP hsds was content to do the former out of the last 14 reports December uh 90 to February 91 only uh one referred to
00:41:22 one referred to ifm uh however interestingly uh he then reflected aloud on SS's ability to continue to justify their RCP Source purely on law order grounds like our view of their subversive threat there was little Law and Order uh threat
00:41:42 either so that's a a record arising out of a conversation between um the security service and uh Martin gray and h& 86 were these
00:41:53 86 were these assessments uh of the level of threat posed by the RCP communicated to you at the time
00:42:07 no did you or or or looking back would you agree with the S SDS assessment that your deployment was difficult to justify on Law and Order
00:42:19 difficult to justify on Law and Order grounds and that there was a little Law and Order
00:42:21 and Order threat yes that would seem
00:42:28 reasonable did you you apply your own mind to that at the time did you think about the Law and Order threat posed by the RCP around February
00:42:39 RCP around February 1991 it was always a component but as
00:42:50 1991 it was always a component but as far as I was aware my primary objective was to collect the Intelligence on the members did you ever raise with your managers uh any concern as to whether this group at that stage continued to Merit infiltration that no that wasn't my
00:43:08 decision you were in the group and it was your intelligence that um was being gathered did you not
00:43:20 that um was being gathered did you not think that they would be better informed if you were to give them uh the benefit of what you thought about the threat level of the group at the time no as I say I didn't have a full picture of the activities of the
00:43:40 RCP and now uh we know that your intelligence reporting on the RCP continued until around March 1992 do you know why it took a year for you to be diverted away from the RCP
00:43:54 RCP no can we look at ucpi 30162 please and this is uh tab C uh c68 of the um hard copy bundle
00:44:53 yes ucpi 30162
00:45:27 thank you uh this is an intelligence report attributed to you dated the 14th of August 1991 and just want to look at what it says at paragraph 2 on Saturday the 10th of August 1991 the Revolutionary Communist Party held its
00:45:41 Revolutionary Communist Party held its annual anti- internment March under the aices of its front organization the Irish Freedom Movement the March was held from isington Town Hall Upper Street N1 to wittington Park holway Road n19 between 2: and 400 p.m. with a rally
00:45:56 n19 between 2: and 400 p.m. with a rally at the park until 5:00 p.m. uh there was no disorder and then next please ucpi 30290 which is c81 of the hard copy
00:46:22 bundle again um just want to look at the introductory paragraph of this report attributed to you dated the 4th of December 1991 which said as um the on Wednesday the 27th of November 1991 the Irish Freedom Movement of front
00:46:35 Irish Freedom Movement of front organization of the Revolutionary Communist
00:46:36 Communist Party um held a public meeting at 7:30 p.m. at the Camden Irish Center Murray Street nw1 entitled The Myth of tit forat the meeting was attended by about
00:46:51 forat the meeting was attended by about 120 people of whom about 70 uh were RCP uh ifm activists the unusually high turnout of RCP activists was probably designed to make maintain the political focus of the meeting as the larger than usual audience of Irish people would
00:47:02 usual audience of Irish people would otherwise have reduced it to the level of simple support for the Republican cause so these are reports uh focused on U ifm
00:47:16 U ifm activity was it ever communicated to you that the security service remained interested in intelligence regarding um the Irish Freedom Movement not that I recall no
00:47:30 were these the sorts of events that related to a front group that would require your manager approval before you attended
00:47:44 them I'm not sure in the case of the ifm that was run by members of the RCP so possibly
00:47:54 not can we look next please at 3 ucpi 3076 which is at B2 two of the hard copy bundle
00:48:23 30706 now this is a security service file note dat of the 15th of May um 1991 it relates to a visit by the security service to the SDS in a meeting with di
00:48:29 with di h86 I just want to look at something that's said under your Cipher page two paragraph eight I
00:48:41 think and it says I clarified ft's residual interest in minor trotskyist groups and in particular referred to RCP if information came their way that would update our records on individual RCP
00:48:52 update our records on individual RCP members uh then you we would still be interested to receive receive it in addition to our previously declared remaining interest in RCP Irish
00:49:03 remaining interest in RCP Irish activities uh I said there was a residual interest desk uh
00:49:13 F2 were you informed at the time um that uh the security service remained interested in upto-date information about RCP members
00:49:20 no does it follow that um
00:49:29 before uh your managers uh spoke to you about redirecting you to another group you hadn't been told um about the um lack of interest on
00:49:41 about the um lack of interest on subversion grounds in relation to this group that's correct I I had no idea you hadn't been told about the lack of interest on public order grounds by the SDS no uh you hadn't been told that um
00:49:56 SDS no uh you hadn't been told that um the security service was still Keen to receive Intelligence on the ifm no you hadn't been told uh that the security service was still Keen to receive
00:50:08 service was still Keen to receive intelligence that despite its assessment of the RCP on individual members no had you been aware um that um of
00:50:24 no had you been aware um that um of the change of attitude by the security service and at the SDS in relation to this gr group at the time would you have continued to have provided such
00:50:42 information as soon as SDS management had decided that they weren't covering it I would have been withdrawn as far as I knew at the time that's what had happened had it been communicated to you however
00:50:53 however that
00:50:59 that um these this group was no longer of significant interest but you hadn't been but no one said anything to you about redirecting your deployment or anything like your target or anything like
00:51:13 target or anything like that would you have raised this with the management or would you have just carried
00:51:15 carried on I'm sorry but it's it's highly hypothetical um I can't off the top of my head think of a situation where they would tell me it was no longer of
00:51:26 would tell me it was no longer of interest but please keep doing it I
00:51:37 see do you accept however given what you've told us that it's apparent that the group was no longer of interest but you were still tasked to uh continue
00:51:50 you were still tasked to uh continue infiltration and provide information on that group from these documents I've been shown I suppose
00:51:53 so um could we look please at at um ucpi
00:52:01 30338 which is at C1 of the hard copy
00:52:18 bundle this is a report um hm122 attributed to you dated the 15th of December 1989 it's the earliest report that the inquiry is located that was
00:52:29 that the inquiry is located that was produced uh by you uh and it relates to a um we can see from paragraph two a public meeting of the Communist Party of Britain Marxist
00:52:41 Britain Marxist leninist and at paragraphs 5 to six uh one can see that information was provided about a local government officer uh and a school teacher with with two uh young
00:52:56 with two uh young children um why did you report on this particular group as far as I recall that was part of my initial deployment was to go to some meetings of the extreme left wings
00:53:10 some meetings of the extreme left wings so they could see how they operated and if I was to make the wrong remark um or not be careful and was called out then there would be no harm
00:53:21 called out then there would be no harm done I went to a number of meetings like that uh I don't recall this one in particular as far as your where at the time was there any relationship between the the RCB and the Communist Party of Britain
00:53:35 no given
00:53:49 that uh your attendance at these sorts of uh meetings uh were a tester for want of a better
00:53:55 expression um was it appropriate to report the Intelligence on this group my understanding was that that organization was of interest on a
00:54:06 organization was of interest on a national security basis of their extreme views and therefore I reported it whether it was relevant or not was for others to
00:54:19 decide was that was that right your understanding hm122 because you say in your witness statement about this group but I cannot comment with any reliability on the extent to which the group was subversive presented a
00:54:31 group was subversive presented a challenge to public order promoted violence or was involved in other criminal
00:54:34 criminal activity is it your evidence this afternoon that your understanding was that there was a subversive interest in this
00:54:47 this group it was my understanding that as an extreme leftwing group they potentially of interest but no I didn't have any specific knowledge and wasn't targeted against
00:54:53 against them would you accept in hindsight that wasn't uh um appropriate to provide this
00:55:08 intelligence
00:55:21 possibly um just want to look at please ucpi
00:55:27 ucpi 26290 which is at B13 of the heart card copy
00:55:43 bundle and this um document is uh another Security Service file Note data the 20th of August 1990 uh and just want to examine what it says Under The Heading RCP on the first page uh it reads hm122 was launched in
00:55:59 page uh it reads hm122 was launched in October 19 1990 hn22 was targeted into the RCP West London Branch but for various reasons has been slow to get off the ground F2 and f2b talk through their
00:56:10 the ground F2 and f2b talk through their orbat I think that means order of battle uh for the 7 to8 London branches including which ones there uh which ones had leading figures as Branch members they'll now Supply a written list of these details through F4 for handing on to SDS the lists uh to include addresses
00:56:28 to SDS the lists uh to include addresses of known RCP premises in London SCS feel it would have been an opportune time to move
00:56:29 move hm122 to to another RCP uh branch do you agree with the observation that you were slow to get off the ground
00:56:40 that you were slow to get off the ground didn't appear to me that way at the time
00:56:49 no can you being careful as to any sensitivities can you think of why uh you may have been considered to have been slow to get off the ground I don't know you don't know can you
00:57:04 I don't know you don't know can you remember if a list of leading figures or details of RCP premises ever made its way to
00:57:05 way to you not off the top of my head no did your managers ever discuss with you moving Branch within the
00:57:23 RCP I know we discussed which branch I should go to but I don't recall anything about moving branch and that was the West London branch is that right yes you told us um earlier that the RCP was a security conscious
00:57:36 was a security conscious group uh and did their security measures extend to vetting prospective supporters or or members
00:57:49 yes uh having approached the RCP were you vetted in any in any way yes I think you explain in your Witness
00:58:10 yes I think you explain in your Witness statement that you your cover occupation being a carpet cleaner you were invited to attend the home of a member of the RCP and clean their carpets is that right yes that wasn't part of the initial uh security procedures but it did happen later
00:58:21 yes and did you attend that person's home
00:58:27 home yes did you do any carpet cleaning yes did you do anything else yes I obtained some information on supporters what did you do I found a list of uh supporters for that local
00:58:41 list of uh supporters for that local branch and what did you do with that list uh I copied it down and reported it
00:59:02 do you know what lawful Authority you had to acquire this information whilst in somebody else's private home I couldn't quote uh act and section but as far as I was concerned that was perfectly legitimate way of
00:59:13 perfectly legitimate way of operating have you thought about it
00:59:25 since I've been asked about it since but I still can't uh recall what Authority that would fall under you see in ordinary investigative policing um these sorts of things are governed by leg legislation aren't they so for example one could secure a
00:59:39 so for example one could secure a warrant under the police and criminal Evidence Act or or something like that if certain criteria were met is that right that's right yeah what made you think that it
00:59:55 yeah what made you think that it was uh appropriate uh whilst you were being tested in this way to acquire information from somebody else's
01:00:03 home the police criminal Evidence Act relates to evidence Gathering and the admissibility of that evidence in later proceedings I'm not aware that uh there's anything similar for Gathering of
01:00:20 intelligence I mean you this was a search you conducted of this premises wasn't it not an evidential search no well you say in your statement that you you had a look around
01:00:33 you had a look around H what what was the purpose of having a look around to see if there was any useful
01:00:48 intelligence looking back do you uh maintain that there was a proper basis for you to acquire this sort of information whilst you in somebody's private home
01:01:02 I've had it suggested that there was no legal basis uh but I really don't have the legal knowledge to know whether that is true or not at the time that um you
01:01:17 is true or not at the time that um you acquired this information were you clear as to whether there was an appropriate basis for you to copy down uh those details and pass them to special Branch I believe that
01:01:31 them to special Branch I believe that there was uh that was part of the role that I was performing at the time was that a clear belief I didn't have any doubt
01:01:42 belief I didn't have any doubt myself um during your attendance at that property did you consider the possibility that you might come across personal possessions or personal information that related to the
01:01:58 occupants if it was unrelated to CP activity I would not have been interested in
01:02:05 it can you remember have you submitted the list of names that you copied yeah certainly did were your managers aware of the circumstances in which you obtained that intelligence yes did they raise any issue with you in relation to that
01:02:24 no uh ucpi 30079 please which is at c89 of the hard copy bundle
01:02:44 now this is an intelligence report attributed to you dated the 14th of May 1992 uh which uh describes an updated flowchart showing the structure of the RCP and we go over to
01:02:57 RCP and we go over to the um following page please we can see the
01:03:08 the chart and I think in the um bottom right corner very very small text there's a date April 1992 and it says there information from
01:03:15 SDS and I think you accept in your witness statement um that the information within this document is likely to have been derived from from your intelligence do you remember
01:03:26 your intelligence do you remember accepting that certainly some of it would be yeah yeah um is it is it the sort of document that you might have produced yourself no um information in relation to the
01:03:41 no um information in relation to the regions is that the sort of information that you might have been in a position to provide or not no can you remember whether you ever saw this document or a document like it whilst you were deployed no I never saw
01:03:55 it now you say in your witness statement that a document like this would have been part of a regular review of the RCP possibly one of the last by special
01:04:08 RCP possibly one of the last by special branch and the security service G given the timing in other words possibly one of the last given that we've we've looked at these documents already that say that interest in the RCP had
01:04:16 diminished uh given that by um November
01:04:25 1990 interest had diminished on the p of the security service and the SDS do you have any idea why the why special Branch would still be conducting
01:04:38 special Branch would still be conducting a regular review Into the group about 15 months later I have no
01:04:51 idea would you accept that continued review of this group given what you've seen now uh was probably unjustified by this time I really don't have enough information to judge that did you reach any position of
01:05:12 that did you reach any position of prominence whilst you're in the RCP no uh can we look at um you uh MPS 02198
01:05:17 02198 please it's at b45 of the hard copy bundle
01:05:35 now this is a special Branch note uh dated the 14th of June 1999 so you're you're well out of the um out of your deployments at this stage
01:05:47 out of your deployments at this stage I'm prepared by hn 58 please don't say the real name but if you want to REM refresh your memory as to who that is feel free to do so uh and it's a risk ass assessment in relation to
01:06:02 relation to you uh that um was authored some six years after the conclusion of your deployment and I just want to look at something um it says um just below um center of the page it says the RCP is an
01:06:14 center of the page it says the RCP is an extremely welld disciplined and security conscious group and hm122 successful infiltration ensured that he became a well-known figure within the
01:06:25 well-known figure within the party is it accurate to say that you were a well-known figure within the party no by the end I would be well known in the branch but I wouldn't say within the party so well known within the West
01:06:37 party so well known within the West London Branch but not within the overall party is that is that what you're saying not as far as I'm aware does it follow that hn 58 was wrong to describe you as
01:06:51 that hn 58 was wrong to describe you as well known within the party I don't know what the statement's based on what would was it that you were doing within the branch that made you um well known uh within it simply being there
01:07:08 known uh within it simply being there right give us an idea how many at the time of your deployment how many uh people were involved in the uh West London branch of the RCP oh I couldn't really come up with
01:07:24 oh I couldn't really come up with numbers without referencing the reports I made they they would give those details well but we talking tens hundreds what no TS
01:07:36 right now I think you tell us that you in your witness statement that you it's likely that you acted as a steward for the RCP at an anti- internment March that was held on the 10th of August 1991 do you do you remember saying that in your witness statement uh not no no let's bring it up so it's uh page 68
01:08:04 paragraph
01:08:11 222 just taking it from the center of the paragraph As regards the anti- interment march on the 10th of August 1991 I do not know how the intelligence I provided was distributed so I do not know how the policing of the event changed I assume it did some good in
01:08:22 changed I assume it did some good in general it's likely I was one of the stewards on that that occasion do you see that yeah
01:08:35 right um if we look at the uh report in relation to that event so it's ucpi
01:08:40 30162 uh which is at c68
01:08:55 please I won't go into any Det detail but we can we can discern from that document that the March involved 140 stewards split into to five
01:09:09 teams um does it follow from that that this March must have been quite a sizable
01:09:10 sizable event I suppose so
01:09:23 yes does the fact that you were um given this responsibility uh demonstrate that there was an element of trust in you within the RCP or within your branch of the RCP I seem so
01:09:49 yes RCP was divided into sort of two two forms of a person involved wasn't it there were supporters which was the lower tier and the members is that right that's right yes and I think had to spend quite some time to as a supporter before You' considered for membership is that
01:10:00 that correct um no generally I regard it is quite a short time I see forgive me all right but it's certainly membership wasn't automatic
01:10:13 certainly membership wasn't automatic many supporters were or supporters could be refused membership is that is that right as a supporter you would attend a lot of um meetings on political points
01:10:26 lot of um meetings on political points seminars uh to want of a better phrase the view of the party was that a supporter is simply somebody who isn't a party member yet but those who didn't make the grade would be just cast
01:10:37 make the grade would be just cast aside and did you did you start off as support as a supporter yes did you ever escalate to a member
01:10:54 no within the local group uh as a supporter
01:10:59 supporter given that you've told us there was some degree of trust placed in you did you you ever reach a position where you had any influence no that that's purely for party
01:11:17 members you've told us a little uh about how the infilt your infiltration of the RC PR brought you into contact with the with the
01:11:22 with the ifm what sort of group was the ifm uh it was a group set up by the RCP simply to involve itself in discussions about uh Irish
01:11:38 about uh Irish politics um but its role was the same as the main party that is to gather supporters for the party how did you come to report on the ifm I ended up going to what some of
01:11:49 ifm I ended up going to what some of their meetings uh by invite um but I mean public fundraising meetings or a musical evening or whatever it might
01:12:04 musical evening or whatever it might be forgive me if it's obvious in some of the answers you've already given but um what was the relationship between the RCP and the ifm the ifm was completely controlled by the
01:12:15 controlled by the RCP why did you report on the ifm as part of the
01:12:24 RCP was your assessment of the ifm similar to that of the RCP in other words subversive but not a particular challenge to public order I was never that involved in
01:12:35 order I was never that involved in monitoring their activity so I couldn't really give an opinion on what they did uh but I believed it was justified reporting on them as part of the main
01:12:55 party can we look please at ucpi 303 27 which is at tab C2 of the hard copy
01:13:18 bundle U this is a report attributed to you uh on the Irish Freedom Movement um dated the 9th of February 1990 and it relates to an ifm rally in commemoration of Bloody Sunday that was held on the 30th of January
01:13:29 held on the 30th of January 1990 just want to um look at some of
01:13:40 1990 just want to um look at some of what this says um on Tuesday the 30th of January 1990 at 7 p.m. at the McNamara Hall Mar Street nw1 the Irish Freedom Movement held a rally to commemorate Bloody Sunday approximately 200 persons attended uh the vast U majority of which were members of the ifm or its parent
01:13:53 were members of the ifm or its parent organization the Revolutionary Communist party uh the rally was shared by uh Fiona Fox of the ifm and consisted of two speeches the first by uh Terry Robson introduced as a civil rights
01:14:05 Robson introduced as a civil rights activist who described the events of Bloody Sunday being an eyewitness himself and the second by Phil Murray the ifm spokesman who gave the political background and its relevance today after the speeches food was served and there was a then a social event with Irish
01:14:17 was a then a social event with Irish Republican songs by the BNI ferryman from Liverpool they are unlikely to be invited back as during a rendition of an anti homosexual song the lead singers
01:14:29 anti homosexual song the lead singers remark what's the matter Are You Queer was greeted with Stony
01:14:41 silence so this was um intelligence in relation to an event that involved one speaker giving an eyewitness account of what occurred on Bloody SP Sunday another one who spoke about the political background and
01:14:52 about the political background and relevance of that why did you report this
01:14:56 this information because it was activity by the
01:14:57 the RCP what
01:15:03 RCP what about uh the information about the band that played at the event what was the policing purpose and feeding that back to to special Branch it was illustrative of the problems that the RCP had in dealing with the Irish
01:15:24 issues uh can we look at 30353 please which is at C7 of the bundle
01:15:44 um this is a report on a group um called um workers Against Racism uh and um it deals with their the group's attendance in Brick Lane to
01:15:55 group's attendance in Brick Lane to oppose a BMP March how did do you come to report on workers Against Racism again it's another organization set up and run by the
01:16:08 RCP we can see on um forgive me did you come to any um independent view uh as to whether this was a
01:16:23 view uh as to whether this was a subversive group or a significant public order threat outside of the RCP
01:16:31 now was it necessary to report on this group I thought so yes what was the necess necessity of reporting on an anti-racist group it because it's not a genuine
01:16:49 group it because it's not a genuine anti-racist group it's an organization set up by the Revolutionary Communist party to gather people who are interested in anti-racism and from that see if they can politicize and recruit them to the party thank you uh next please
01:17:02 uh next please 30268 which is at c38 of the hard copy bundle ucpi
01:17:18 30268 now this is another intelligence report attributed to you dated the 12th of October 1990 uh and it relates to uh the hands off the Middle East committee demonstration in central uh
01:17:32 demonstration in central uh London uh that occurred on the 10th of October of that year now was the hands off the Middle East committee was that a group that was set up in opposition to the conflict in the Middle East at the
01:17:47 the Middle East at the time yes how did you come to report on this group again it's another organization set up and dominated by the RCP did you make any sort of assessment uh yourself as to whether it was
01:18:00 uh yourself as to whether it was particularly subversive or or a threat to public order no what was the reason for reporting on this group because it was an organization set up and run by the
01:18:12 RCP um next 30180
01:18:27 please this is c114 of the um hard copy bu and this is a report dated the um 18th of August 1992 and it relates to the Hackney Community defense Association I just want to to read out what it says
01:18:38 want to to read out what it says please uh the Hackney Community defense Association has obtained a radio scanner to monitor police Communications in the Hackney area the hcda is particularly interested in monitoring the
01:18:49 interested in monitoring the activities uh of a Hackney police unit headed by a sergeant which it leaves is specifically targeting anchus in the
01:19:02 specifically targeting anchus in the area how did you come to report on the hcda I really don't recall
01:19:12 no do you remember if you made any assessments as to whether this was a subversive group or threat to public order I I don't recall this report I could speculate on where my information came from
01:19:23 came from but well don't speculate but if I I suppose you're not going to assist me if I ask you why you submitted intelligence in relation to this group I don't recall doing
01:19:39 group I don't recall doing so uh let's see if another report helps you it's ucpi 30195 which is at c116 of the hard copy
01:19:54 bundle now this report relates to something you told us about this morning um which uh was uh class war activity uh this relates to the class
01:20:13 activity uh this relates to the class war Federation in East London but we can see against the heading of other organizations um the uh it says four members of the Hackney Community defense Association monitoring police action and at the main body of the
01:20:24 action and at the main body of the report we can see reference to the summer of discontent rally tour which is something I think you told us this morning uh prompted your redeployment into class war does that assist you uh in any way
01:20:42 war does that assist you uh in any way uh in Remembering why you were reporting on the Hackney Community defense
01:20:56 Association I'm not sure where that report is produced but I assume it does uh conin information supplied by me at least in part it's attributed to you so as a matter of fact if they were at a meeting organized by class war then I would report the fact that they were at
01:21:10 would report the fact that they were at that meeting I see but you can't help us with the earli report that simply deals with the hcda in isolation as I say I I speculate it was conversation that I heard between class war
01:21:22 heard between class war members um let's look a little closely
01:21:33 members um let's look a little closely um at um class war then please and you said um in your witness statement uh that uh you've been
01:21:42 provided now I ought to explain I suppose first the the way this process started um in terms of getting your witness statement together is you giving a provider with a documents from the inquiry is that
01:21:57 inquiry is that right uh I have been provided with some documents from the inquiry yes and the inquiry provided you with all the intelligence reporting that it had which it considered to be a tributal to you do you remember that
01:22:09 you remember that process yes and you said in your witness statement that you'd been provided with fewer intelligence reports and you recollect writing and you think you submitted about 4 to 500 reports um during the course of your deployment do you remember saying that not
01:22:24 you remember saying that not specifically but it sounds right yes um C can you remember how much of your total reporting or What proportion would have been attributed to the RCP and what What proportion to class war no I don't you can't all
01:22:36 you can't all right um I'd want to look at a document please that um doesn't um feature in the hard copy bundle but it's um MPS uh sorry ucpi
01:22:48 MPS uh sorry ucpi 22281 please
01:23:08 now this is a document dated the 18th of September 1987 it's a security service file note so before you a couple of years before you deployed hm122 and it relates to a visit to the SS and a meeting with
01:23:19 meeting with um uh detective inspector Eric Docker and and if we look at page two please paragraph six there's a comment about class war
01:23:34 six there's a comment about class war and it says this a class war Collective is regarded as of no interest by SDS who view it as at most a collection of half a dozen Hooligans SDS believe uh the local
01:23:45 Hooligans SDS believe uh the local police attribute far too much common vandalism to the CWC do you see that yes I can see that
01:23:56 I can see that now
01:23:57 now before
01:23:58 before um you were retargeted um to class war were you aware of the existence of the group what class war yes yes were you
01:24:14 group what class war yes yes were you aware that there was a a time when the SS wasn't interested in this group I don't know the history of its coverage
01:24:33 can you remember when you were retargeted um towards this group in 1992 what you were told by your managers as to what it was about the group what the group was doing uh that merited
01:24:46 group was doing uh that merited infiltration or or or why the SDS was interested in class war from my recollection it was primarily on uh public disorder
01:24:59 um can we look please at ucpi 30713 which is B24 of the hard copy
01:25:19 bundle just to put a date on things hm122 this is a security service file notes dated the 16th of January 1992
01:25:29 uh and it relates to a visit by the security service to the SS meeting with Detective inspector hn 67 if you need to remind yourself of that individual's name please do
01:25:52 so um and it says that um hm122 Can Be Moved Sideways from from the RCP it's just below center of the first page do you see
01:25:59 you see that were you aware at this time that consideration was being given to moving you away from the
01:26:11 you away from the RCP I I can't recall the date that I was informed so I don't know if this was before or after all right were you aware that the security service
01:26:19 service were informed as to what groups you were in or or or what the SDS intentions were for you and that sort of thing where you were living other information in relation to your deployment no I
01:26:43 wasn't can can you remember when the issue of your retargeting was first raised
01:26:53 no been care to names can you remember who it was raised by
01:26:56 yes thank
01:27:02 you
01:27:15 h86 were you consulted uh in your
01:27:25 redeployment uh I believe the conversation went along the lines that coverage is ceasing um in the RCP in the ICP and that therefore you would have to withdraw
01:27:38 therefore you would have to withdraw from the field unless there was another area which you felt you could move
01:27:50 to and was it the management that suggested class war to you or was it the other way
01:27:52 other way around I quite possibly it was me that suggested it but I can't be certain all
01:28:03 right can you remember what what input you had in relation to your redeployment well there was a lot of discussion as to whether it was feasible
01:28:14 discussion as to whether it was feasible whether um it would stand up to scrutiny and so on uh and how I would manage um anybody who out there who thought it wasn't feasible or it was
01:28:25 thought it wasn't feasible or it was unusual what would I say and how would I say it and would that stand up to scrutiny was that because would the appearance would be of somebody who was involved in the RCP leaving and then becoming interested in class war was
01:28:37 becoming interested in class war was that it on the isue it seemed unusual and therefore it had to be covered were these groups that cared for one another in particularly no not at all
01:28:55 no who had the final say as to what your next Target would be was it you or or management no the
01:29:01 management and I think it's right that by about April 1992 uh your infiltration of class war was on the way is that right
01:29:12 was on the way is that right uh it sounds right do you want me to help you the let's look at ucpi 30714 which is b26 of the hard copy
01:29:25 bundle uh the this is a
01:29:27 a um Security Service file note dated the 15th of April 1992 relates to a security service visits the SDS meeting with DCI
01:29:45 service visits the SDS meeting with DCI in 86 and DH in 67 on the 14th of April 1992 and at paragraph well uh about center of the page I think it's paragraph two there's a record there hm122 new address flat 77 centry Road in ilford has been Rec had been retargeted against CWF which stands for class war
01:29:58 against CWF which stands for class war Federation is that right yes it does had successfully joined class war Federation nce London who'd welcomed who had welcomed an X RCP supporter with interest do you see that
01:30:23 yes and I've used the term class war but is it right that the proper title of the organization when you first infiltrated was class war Federation uh there were a number of splits and amalgamations and history behind them I really can't remember the
01:30:36 behind them I really can't remember the details now well we're going to get to a split that occurred whilst you were uh involved and we'll we'll um we'll look at the names
01:30:55 then um can we start by looking at ucpi 381 please which is at scene 90 of the hard copy
01:31:09 bundle um that is an intelligence report attributed to you um dated the 19th of May
01:31:11 May 1992 and it says this um since the recent division of London class war into three autonomous branches Southeast and West confusion and lack of Direction
01:31:27 West confusion and lack of Direction have been the order of the day today only one East London has even held proper Branch meetings the others relying on informal meetings in various public houses and even then have failed
01:31:38 public houses and even then have failed to agree a strategy or any action Beyond paper sales and a broad commitment to a poster campaign most groups are now awaiting the National Conference in Birmingham on the weekend of the 30th 31st of May 1992 in the hope that
01:31:49 31st of May 1992 in the hope that someone may have an inspiration for a summer campaign of some sort now can you remember um um was there a degree of division within London
01:32:02 there a degree of division within London class war that by the time that you came to infiltrate the group yes it was a period in which it was fragmenting all the
01:32:14 was fragmenting all the time um did you when you first infiltrated the group did you affiliate to any particular Branch or or or geographical area of the group or
01:32:26 or geographical area of the group or anything like that uh in general terms of Northeast London I see um can we look now at ucpi 30121 which is at c95 of the hard copy
01:32:45 bundle uh this is a uh report attributed to you dat of the 24th of June 1992 H uh and it relates to some planned class war Federation
01:32:56 class war Federation demonstrations against people termed as the rich at the Oxford University Shelly ball uh and the bath Opera House in June 1992 and just at the bottom of this
01:33:13 1992 and just at the bottom of this document it says this despite its stated intentions London class war is totally disorganized uh at it is quite likely that no activist from the capital will turn up at all
01:33:33 did you find that um the time uh that London class war was a disorganized group yes did the division and and disorganization that was going on with this group in London make it difficult for you to obtain any useful
01:33:54 intelligence no I don't believe so can I just look at something uh that you said in your witness statement with you please um page 53 uh paragraph
01:34:15 165 uh you say um I've considered the report dated 19th of May 1992 so that's a report but but one that we've just seen and recall the circumstances around the general division within class warwell the split of the group groups in London was just a sympton of that
01:34:26 London was just a sympton of that problem there was very little that I could do that was consistent with my UC role I certainly did not try to keep a group going in the meantime in common with the other activists I waited for
01:34:39 with the other activists I waited for the National Conference later that month to clarify things what do you did you mean when you said that there was very little that you could do that was consistent with your UC
01:34:49 UC role I'm not sure what I meant when I said that again it looks like I was was
01:35:01 said that again it looks like I was was responding to a particular question but the the issue was that there was no definitive actions or branches or members or leaders to report on because it was all waiting for this Summer Conference to see how it would sort Health out was it is it a fair
01:35:17 Health out was it is it a fair observation to say that at that stage in your deployment the the group was in London at least was ineffectual as an organization yes yeah
01:35:28 ineffectual as an organization yes yeah did you you tell your managers that this was an ineffectual group yes uh did they express any concerns as to whether you should continue with this deployment given the state the group was in in London I think they wanted uh to wait
01:35:43 London I think they wanted uh to wait for this summer conference and to see what would happen I
01:35:51 see just want to ask you about some of the things you did whilst involved in the group and the inquiry um H want to2 for your information has received a witness statement from one of its core
01:36:07 witness statement from one of its core participants called Norman Blair and he was involved in class war During the period of your deployment and in his witness statement um signed and dated the 24th of July of this
01:36:19 this year he says that someone else remembers that you had a car and that you'd collect copies of of uh the group's
01:36:30 collect copies of of uh the group's paper or newspaper class war from the printers to deliver to other groups including a journey to a Motorway service station on the M4 to hand over copies to members of the Bristol class war group that's what's part of the
01:36:48 war group that's what's part of the evidence that he's given do you remember if that's something that you did whilst you were infiltrating class war no I don't recall that
01:37:01 are you sure uh that you didn't um Courier class war literature on occasion on behalf of the group no I may well have done but I have no clear recollection I see going down to the M4 all right so you may well have delivered
01:37:13 right so you may well have delivered papers but you can't remember the the precise geographical locations to where you took them as that I certainly have no recollection of driving down the M40
01:37:27 no recollection of driving down the M40 H do you have any recollection of going anywhere else not specifically no but it's quite
01:37:40 possible does it follow that others within the group must have had a degree of trust in you if
01:37:49 you if you uh were asked to uh undertake the delivery of papers if I did I assume so
01:38:00 yes can we look at uh 3092 at c91 please of the hard copy
01:38:15 bundle um this is a report attributed to uh hm122 dated the 3rd of June 1992 and I just uh it relates to a series of class war Federation rallies I just want to have a look at what it says um
01:38:24 says um class war is arranging a series of rallies called the summer of discontent rally tour to be held in areas where riots or mini riots have erupted throughout Great Britain each rally will be addressed by a speaker from Los
01:38:35 be addressed by a speaker from Los Angeles who witnessed the riots there uh by the usual speakers from class war the speaker from Los Angeles is in fact an anarchist who lived in America for 10 years who was active with an American
01:38:50 years who was active with an American Anarchist publication profane existence dates and venues are to be arranged at the suggestion of members and included so far in Newcastle the meow well estate Leeds Chapel toown Bristol hartcliffe Burmingham hansworth and as a finale
01:39:05 Burmingham hansworth and as a finale London Notting Hill coinciding with the carnival the object of all this is to spread class Wars influence whilst it is not their intention to actually start any disturbances if the police overreact in their coverage of these events that
01:39:27 in their coverage of these events that class war hopes uh that um local youths uh will be antagonized into causing trouble thus adding even greater notoriety for the organization so um infiltration of class war you told us uh
01:39:42 war you told us uh was on public order grounds uh by um June
01:39:43 June 1992 uh you were reporting that it wasn't the group's intention to start any disturbances is that right yes um there are a number of locations um
01:39:56 there are a number of locations um mentioned in in this report do you remember whether your infiltration of of the class war Federation took you outside of London yes certainly on one occasion in
01:40:08 London yes certainly on one occasion in your witness statement you say at least half a dozen times over an 18month period is is that it may have been I see and for what reasons would you
01:40:19 see and for what reasons would you travel as a result of your infiltration of the the group uh to attend uh conference certainly on one occasion to attend events on
01:40:36 another did you inform your managers when you traveled with the group yes um every time yes did you inform them if you plan to stay away overnight yes did they ever challenge you or explore the
01:40:47 they ever challenge you or explore the necessity for you to leave London or to stay away we would always discuss whether it was necessary or not yes uh being careful about any operational sensitivities on the occasions that you
01:41:08 sensitivities on the occasions that you did travel were any measures ever taken in order to manage any risk to you yes if uh there was certainly one event I recall where one of the managers went to the local area to Leo with the local police
01:41:21 see did you attend any of the rallies that are mentioned in this report
01:41:32 not outside of London no I'm not even sure these rallies actually took place it was the plan you've told us um that you did
01:41:43 plan you've told us um that you did spend time away overnight when you did typically where would you stay just in uh another class war members house or squats or whatever it was and what were the sleeping around
01:41:55 was and what were the sleeping around Arrangements be like just a sleeping bag on the floor the city I think it's right you you tell us in your witness statement that you there was an occasion where you stayed in a flat that was the home of several
01:42:06 flat that was the home of several members of the band chumber wber in leads that's that right yes so at least one occasion where you you were outside of London overnight yeah yes did you ever stay in family
01:42:20 yes did you ever stay in family homes not that I recall did you ever stay in addresses where children were present not that I recall
01:42:48 now did you um ever consider that staying at other people's homes may have been overly intrusive no why not it was purely by invite as uh and as a class war activist
01:42:54 I it may have been by invite but the activists didn't know who you really were did they did did you ever apply your mind to whether it was appropriate to spend the night in in somebody else's home well I've always consider the
01:43:07 home well I've always consider the circumstances of where it was planned we would stay but uh as a class war activist um that's where I either had to go or come up with a good reason why I wasn't going were there occasions where
01:43:21 wasn't going were there occasions where you did come up with a good reason to to avoid going somewhere I can't think of specifics right now um next please can we look at MPS 0746
01:43:37 0746 260 uh which is c117 of the hard copy bundle
01:43:56 now this is a report that's attributed to uh hm122 dated the 2nd of September 1992 and it relates to the submission of some photographs that were taken of
01:44:07 some photographs that were taken of London members of class war Federation at a rally on the 29th of August 1992 can we look specifically please at uh page four
01:44:26 and uh page four top right uh we can see an image of uh what I think is a female holding a child do you see that
01:44:44 female holding a child do you see that yes uh and then can we look at page six [Music]
01:44:59 please uh top left uh we can see what looks like a male and female and a child in the in the male's arms do you see that yes female's got her hands on it what looks like a double buggy do do you see that mhm did you take these
01:45:14 mhm did you take these photographs from what I can see yes I think so how did you come to take them uh I was asked uh to take photographs of a rally that we attended earlier in the day and then they went to a pub and I was
01:45:30 and then they went to a pub and I was asked because I had some film left to take pictures of them what were the photos of the rally supposed to be for for publicity so initially asked to take
01:45:42 publicity so initially asked to take some photographs of uh the rally for publicity and then asked to to use up your spare film yes to take some photographs in the pub
01:46:01 amongst these photographs and I haven't shown you all of them but we can we can flick through them all if you like
01:46:07 like um so it's Pages four five and six amongst these
01:46:12 photographs just give you a moment to have a
01:46:14 have a look can you see any of the publicity photographs or any photographs of the rally amongst these three
01:46:26 rally amongst these three pages I have I haven't seen any so far no no do you know whether or not the publicity photographs was submitted submitted to the SDS yes I
01:46:34 SDS yes I believe can you think of of why they haven't made it uh to be tallied up with this intelligence report I don't
01:46:51 know what was the purpose of of handing of um submitting the other photographs um to the office for identification purposes of the class war
01:47:06 activist did you not consider it overly intrusive to include photographs of children I had no means of cropping those photographs so I submitted them as they came off the
01:47:22 film did you try and avoid taking them at all
01:47:24 at all I was specifically asked to take them uh would have been very difficult to refuse could have made an excuse or something like that couldn't you I perhaps I could but uh I couldn't think of how to do
01:47:35 but uh I couldn't think of how to do that at the time or could you have used your discretion taken the photograph but withheld any that that had images of children in them I could have done but you you submitted everything yeah as a
01:47:47 you you submitted everything yeah as a complete single package yes but you'll accept that we can't see amongst these photographs and any of the photographs of the rally is that right apparently
01:48:00 right apparently not um I think you tell us in your witness statement that each significant activist would um have their own special
01:48:13 activist would um have their own special Branch file containing as much detail as possible and that a photograph may be obtained for for the file do you remember saying that yes um when uh reporting on an individual was any any attempts made by
01:48:26 individual was any any attempts made by you to include only information that you considered relevant or or would you include um all detail and leave it to others to decide what what needed to be passed up the line or not well I
01:48:41 passed up the line or not well I wouldn't submit information I thought was
01:48:45 was irrelevant but I wouldn't necessarily make that distinction
01:48:57 make that distinction myself in relation to this document are you aware as to whether following your submission of these photographs any attempt was made down the line to exclude the images of the children I was very surprised when these were shown to me that they existed in that form with the pictures of the children I saw no reason why they
01:49:16 should can we look at uh 3249
01:49:22 3249 please uh which is at um tab c138 of the hard copy
01:49:35 bundle thank you um just before we look at this report in any detail it's a it's a
01:49:39 a report um attributed to you data the 24th of November 1992 um and it relates to a class war Federation National Conference held in
01:49:51 Federation National Conference held in leads in November of of that year and we can see uh some uh Security Service comments uh appended to this report uh say the most useful Report top left of
01:50:03 say the most useful Report top left of the document and if you look top right there's some gist it text uh which includes an assessment that this information was above average value um could we have a look at page two of the document
01:50:21 please um this document says as follows at its National conference in Le on the 21st and the 22nd of November the class war Federation suffered a serious split
01:50:33 war Federation suffered a serious split Tim Scargo resigned his post of national coordinator and membership secretary before leaving the conference declaring that he would start a new group uh retaining the name class War uh he took with him some 20 to 25 committed uh
01:50:48 with him some 20 to 25 committed uh class war Federation activists roughly half of the useful membership but a minority of the conference the of the issue was Scar's insistence that class war become a more structured organization with uh individual branches
01:51:03 organization with uh individual branches being subservient to a central Authority this was unacceptable to the majority and then a comment detail of the split which is considered permanent will be reported on in the near future and then next can we look at 3259
01:51:31 this should be tab B30 of the hard copy
01:51:44 bundle and this is a briefing note um in relation to class war that's attributed um to
01:51:48 um to you briefly noted the security service dated the 15th of December uh 199 2 um headed developments in the class war Federation I just want to have a look at some of what this says it says
01:51:59 look at some of what this says it says this paragraph one says this paper is in response to box 500 Telex dated the 18th November 1992 file reference redaction and outlines the composition aims and
01:52:14 and outlines the composition aims and membership of the class war Federation recently there's been a major Rift uh between factions of the class war Federation which will undoubtedly result in there being two class war organizations whilst it is accepted that the matter is not yet finally resolved
01:52:26 the matter is not yet finally resolved the content of this briefing note deals with aspects of the exan class war Federation which will be retained by the most significant of the new groups uh uh which will probably be called class war
01:52:42 which will probably be called class war and which will uh be led by Tim Scargill the information contained in this paper has been uh deceived uh from a secret and reliable forgive me has been received from a secret and reliable source which must be protected the National Conference of the class war Federation in leads on the 21st 22nd of September 19 1992 was
01:52:55 21st 22nd of September 19 1992 was completely overwhelmed by national coordination secretary Tim Scar's Maneuvers to split out the split the Federation Scargo resigned his post and subsequently as membership of the class
01:53:07 subsequently as membership of the class war Federation his thinking is that the existing class war Federation is a rudess and impotent conglomeration beset by apathy what Scargo wants is a more disciplined anarchic group if that is not a contradiction in terms with a
01:53:18 not a contradiction in terms with a degree of organization and structure with commitment and most of all with a rigorous and energetic approach to activities it in short Scargo wants to turn the CWF into an effective political
01:53:32 turn the CWF into an effective political party Tim scargle carries between 30 and 60 of the quality members of the CWF with him that is to say the majority of the committed membership of the Federation the remainder many of whom
01:53:44 Federation the remainder many of whom are still undecided as to whether or not to follow Scargo still support the idea of class war being as we know it I.E unstructured and disciplined and locally autonomous there will be a series of meetings culminating in another national meeting in Birmingham on the 31st of
01:53:55 meeting in Birmingham on the 31st of January 1993 to finalize the separation of the Scargo faction from the class war Federation that it will happen is beyond doubt the only question remaining being the number of members Scargo will take
01:54:09 the number of members Scargo will take with him a list of the leading declared Pro and anti- Scargill uh class war Federation members is attached to this briefing paper as appendix a uh one of uh the known london-based class war
01:54:21 uh the known london-based class war activists very few are thought uh to be Keen to adopt gle's new um discipline uh if we progress please then to page four of that document the concluding part uh it says the class War faction
01:54:34 part uh it says the class War faction which contains Tim Scargo will be the dominant one it is likely therefore that 1993 we'll see a revitalized class war Group which will be more effective than in the past and which will be smaller at
01:54:49 in the past and which will be smaller at least in the short term the split should be completed by the end of January when it will become clear just how many of the ex existing members and supporters will follow Scargill the aims and direction of the new group will quickly become clear and they will be reported as soon as possible and then over the
01:55:06 as soon as possible and then over the page to um page five uh we can see that there is a a list of names of leading class war Federation members supporting uh scargle that includes Ian bone and Bristol and Tim scargle himself uh and then amongst uh those um
01:55:29 himself uh and then amongst uh those um who oppose Tim scargle if we go over the page to page six uh Norman Blair um who as you know has provided a witness statement of the inquiry and is engaged as one of its um core
01:55:36 core participants that so is that an appropriate moment for a break and then we'll follow on from that document afterwards we'll um break for quarter of
01:55:51 time
02:12:50 e e
02:13:55 hn22 the last document that we looked at was some quite detailed intelligence in relation
02:14:00 relation to um the split that occurred in the class war
02:14:01 class war Federation and is it right that um following that split the the faction that was driven by Tim Scargill who
02:14:13 that was driven by Tim Scargill who we've heard about uh that was referred to as the class war organization yes I believe so and the
02:14:26 so and the action that remained retain the name class war Federation or CWF is that right I believe so yes um can we look at another document then on that topic which is ucpi 30313
02:14:55 think I've got the wrong document forgive
02:15:12 me thank you so um this is a um report attributed to you dat of the 16th of February
02:15:13 February 1993 it
02:15:15 1993 it relates to uh an emergency National Conference of the class or Federation held on the 31st of January um 1993 as a result of this emerging split
02:15:29 1993 as a result of this emerging split in the group and we we may look at it in a bit more detail later but I just want to focus on one small part of it for the moment uh and that's at page two please uh right at the bottom of the
02:15:47 please uh right at the bottom of the page where it states that there was a pro proposal by um some individuals whose names have been redacted uh for privacy The Proposal was for the introduction of a physical Force group to undertake direct action against right-wing and
02:16:01 direct action against right-wing and ruling uh class targets uh this was also withdrawn privacy and privacy by now despairing and preparing to leave but
02:16:12 despairing and preparing to leave but reintroduced uh by Norman Blair who then explained that he did not want one as such but would like some selfdefense training do you see that yeah uh and then over um to the next document which is ucpi
02:16:23 is ucpi 30314 which is c148 of the hard copy
02:16:38 bundle uh this is a report dat of the 16th of um February 1993 attributed to you
02:16:46 um and it uh relates to uh a meeting of the class war organization held in Birmingham the 13th of February and we Leap Frog to page three uh we can
02:17:03 three uh we can see your cover name uh Neil Richardson there uh which I think uh Under The Heading special Branch references of aists identified and present do you see that yes so it looks like a meeting that you attended so out of London in
02:17:25 you attended so out of London in Burmingham is that is that fair it seems so yes all right I just want to look at um some text that appears at page two uh about Center uh where it says this the meeting agreed to the establishment of a physical Force group suggested by um
02:17:40 physical Force group suggested by um privacy the group will be coordinated by privacy and its members will be used to undertake direct actions such as assaults protection of events and individuals and causing criminal damage uh and it will be run on a cell structure it's accepted that class war
02:17:56 structure it's accepted that class war does not have sufficient numbers to make this group viable uh but it is intended to use others who are not members to take part in direct action types who might become involved the youth from the har Cliff area of Bristol who are noted Hooligans and others from the Crusty
02:18:10 Hooligans and others from the Crusty underclass of squatter anarchists it's envisaged that few if any class war members will become personally involved in the actual Commission of direct action
02:18:21 action offenses the new class war organizer boasts a paid up membership of 12 including privacy and privacy uh from Winchester who did not attend this meeting they're elsewhere collecting a printing press for the organization a
02:18:35 printing press for the organization a further 10 members are expected uh to join uh
02:18:45 shortly now uh We've uh seen at least um one comment um made by the security service in relation to the value it placed on your uh
02:18:56 placed on your uh intelligence related to um class war were you ever made aware of uh of these comments from the security
02:19:17 no just looking at the latter two reports did either faction of class war so that's the Federation or the organization did either neither of them managed to establish a physical Force group I don't recall that they did no
02:19:39 no is this uh another example of of a lack of organization on the part of either faction of this group quite possibly there there were a lot of suggestions and movements between groups and so on going on at that time
02:19:56 um I just want to take you to something that you say at your witness statement please this is page 57 uh paragraph
02:20:07 [Applause]
02:20:17 179 now you say this the decreasing numbers led to class war becoming known at least informally as the Tim privacy and Neil show I struggled from this point to remain active uh while not influencing the
02:20:29 active uh while not influencing the group's activities it is a lot more difficult not to say anything when there are only three core
02:20:47 members reference to Tim is Tim scargle is that right yes reference to Neil is reference to to your cover name Neil Richardson is that right yes and does it follow that this is uh a reference to the scargle faction of
02:20:59 reference to the scargle faction of class war in other words the class war organization yes H and I think what you're saying here is that the core
02:21:12 you're saying here is that the core group in London amounted to three of you is that a fair summation eventually it did yes
02:21:17 did yes yeah and was it the after the split occurred was it the class or organization that you Affiliated to as opposed to the class war Federation yes why did you decide to go uh to the
02:21:37 yes why did you decide to go uh to the class war organization rather than the other the other faction of the group whilst all this was happening in consultation with the managers I asked where they wanted me to go which groups or groups I should try and associate
02:21:48 or groups I should try and associate with and the decision was to stay with
02:21:58 skaret was it also because one of the people you were closer with within the group was Tim Scargo yes were you ever briefed to get close to the prominent members of the
02:22:12 to the prominent members of the group as part of joining class war then yes the the one that's redacted there was uh the person I tried to get close to see
02:22:25 now something you say in your witness statement about These two factions is that one was Bristol base I take it that's the Federation and one London base which I I take it as the organization do I understand that
02:22:36 organization do I understand that correctly I can't remember you want to see I can't remember exactly how it's set up there were a number of factions and allegiances changed quite rapidly all right well let's take you to this
02:22:47 all right well let's take you to this this part of your statements paragraph 192 at page 60
02:23:07 uh and you say this as I recall them the circumstances of the split and class war meant that although I tried to position myself to go with either faction was more straightforward to stay in London even though in bone and the Bristol faction ultimately proved more enduring that would have been a management
02:23:18 that would have been a management decision I've considered the Security Service notes uh for file dated 9th of June 22nd uh September 1993 in the SDS annual report uh and in my view the
02:23:32 annual report uh and in my view the justification for maintaining coverage was probably o overtaken uh by by changing priorities do you see that yes thank you just give me a moment please hm122
02:24:09 now what did you mean when you said it would have been a management decision um to stay in London despite the Bristol faction being more enduring and that the justification for maintaining coverage was probably overtaken by changing
02:24:21 overtaken by changing priorities well leg ically it'd be very difficult to align myself with a group based in Bristol as I would be staying in London so it wasn't particularly
02:24:35 in London so it wasn't particularly practical uh and the justification for maintaining coverage I think I'm
02:24:46 maintaining coverage I think I'm referring there to the Scargill group uh but as I say the situation was changing rapidly and eventually the priorities were not to cover his group how was infiltration of a group in
02:24:57 how was infiltration of a group in London with uh only three core members um
02:24:59 um merited well it wasn't that it was a group of three over a period of time it was a group of three that in the end
02:25:10 was a group of three that in the end couldn't attract any more support but obviously initially that wasn't
02:25:20 apparent how did you influence um class war activities or class war organization ation
02:25:21 ation activities as little as I could but it was obviously a very delicate Balancing Act does it follow that there were times where you you did influence the group I don't know that I influenced the
02:25:37 group I don't know that I influenced the group but I certainly had to take a more prominent part than I wanted to and can you give us some examples of uh how you became to be more prominent within the
02:25:48 within the group what sort of things you doing well there was one occasion where they had an idea to make themselves look more organized and as as part of that they
02:26:01 organized and as as part of that they wanted an industrial strategy along with several other strategies and I was asked
02:26:12 several other strategies and I was asked to write an industrial strategy for them all right we we'll look at that in due course uh were you provided with any guidance as to how far you could go if
02:26:27 guidance as to how far you could go if at all in influencing a group or acting in a position of responsibility yes it was there was a constant conversation going on with management as to how tenable the situation was and how far were they prepared to let you go can you remember I I don't
02:26:39 let you go can you remember I I don't know that there was guidelines set down or written down in instructions but I was well aware that uh I didn't want to do anything that
02:26:50 uh I didn't want to do anything that would uh promote or Aid the group group that wouldn't otherwise
02:27:00 happen were you managers aware that in your words you were struggling not to interview influence forgive me the group's activities at this stage did you did you tell them that yes what was their
02:27:08 their response well to do do the best I
02:27:17 could I just want to return to something Norman Blair has said in his witness statement about you all right hm122 and he says
02:27:23 he says this he says um I recall that um hm122 had apparently had an apparently close friend in class
02:27:36 friend in class War uh whose name is under a privacy reduction and who was from and then there's another privacy reduction in the early 1990s Neil as I knew him played an active role in breaking up the cohesion of the
02:27:49 of the organization I suspect this was part of the overarching SS MI5 brief and would be a well-worn tactic I'd like to hear evidence from him regarding his infiltration of class war and his role
02:28:02 infiltration of class war and his role the group split in two with Neil leaving with Ian bone and Tin Scargill and others and then later in the witness statement he refers to somebody whose
02:28:14 statement he refers to somebody whose name is um subject to a privacy redution says privacy recalls like me that Neil supported the faction in class war that developed around Tim Scargill uh and led to an eventual split in the class war
02:28:34 organization be before the split um hm122 were you supportive of one particular faction over the other no were you
02:28:45 were you directed or or ordered by anyone to disrupt the group no where you ordered or directed by anyone to facilitate a split in the group
02:29:01 group no did you yourself uh seek to disrupt or split the group
02:29:08 no do you accept that the split manifested about six or seven months after your infiltration of class war of the class war Federation
02:29:16 began if that's the timings yes
02:29:36 and you tell us uh that um there came a point where the prominent individuals in London so far as a class organization was concerned included you and two others how did you end up in this position of prominence in the New London
02:29:48 group simply by my association with uh one of the group and everybody else left was your prominence anything to do with having had a role in or being
02:30:02 with having had a role in or being involved in the split of the original group
02:30:15 no can we look at um ucpi 302 um 47 which is at c159 of the hard copy bundle
02:30:28 um this is uh an intelligence report attributed to you uh it's dated 25th of May 1993 and it deals with the class war organization F its first National
02:30:39 organization F its first National Conference in Birmingham on the 22nd of May
02:30:44 May 1993 uh and just before we we get into the uh detail of this document um we can see the Security Service comments uh at the outset or appended to this report and they open
02:30:55 appended to this report and they open with thank you very much for a report giving much insight into insight into the cwo particularly membership and finance uh and we look at the the gist
02:31:06 finance uh and we look at the the gist bottom left of the document in terms of the uh value of the information provided it's it's assessed as extremely valuable um just want to look with you
02:31:17 valuable um just want to look with you it's a lengthy report but um lengthy by virtue that uh a uh document in relation to the conference is attached to it but I just want to look uh with you
02:31:34 I just want to look uh with you initially as to what it says uh at the outset about membership uh and so at page two it says this of the 20 persons presence 15 were paid up members of the class war organization the total paid up membership of the cwo is now
02:31:50 membership of the cwo is now 23 and the group has declared assets of £ 108 and a little later on it says the conference opened with reports from Tim
02:32:02 conference opened with reports from Tim Scargo reinstated National organizer and privacy membership
02:32:22 secretary I just want to go back please to uh the report um uh 3247
02:32:37 please forgive me this is forgive me this is 30247 forgive me I misread my note
02:32:43 note um can we just look at the agenda that's appended to this report um starting at page six please
02:33:01 and we can see that on the agenda there are a number of uh proposals that are detailed over the course of page six and Page
02:33:13 Page seven and I think it's right to say uh that where uh and any any individual your proposal is listed against the motion it's either Tim
02:33:24 it's either Tim Scargill or or the national membership officer or or it's you on page seven do you see that
02:33:37 you see that um yes Neil London class war and that's against
02:33:43 against industry um and I think that's what you were telling us about a little earlier the proposal was that the class war organization holds in stock several National leaflets on a variety of subjects
02:33:51 subjects and one is industry do you see that
02:34:01 yes and can you help us what would have been the purpose of the group holding a stock of this sort of literature to hand out
02:34:11 out events why were you involved in proposing this motion uh that was agreed between the three of us uh at a direct request from
02:34:24 three of us uh at a direct request from Tim scar arill based on my background in the RCP thought I could write a better industrial
02:34:37 strategy and is it is the fact that um you were involved in decisions between the three o o of You by this stage is that indicative of the level of prominence that you were starting to to achieve within the group it was always
02:34:54 achieve within the group it was always danger but I don't think you could say that I was ever leading anything or directing
02:35:01 anything now you say in your witness statement that writing industrial um policy was something that allowed you to appear to contribute to the group without having to take any real action do you remember saying that
02:35:17 yes did it ever occur to you that someone may read uh what you what you wrote and be influenced by it I took great care um in conjunction with
02:35:28 conjunction with managers that the strategy itself was fairly meaningless but had a lot of uh political slogans and words in
02:35:45 it uh are you saying that you deliberately produced what was possibly an unhelpful document it was designed so that it would Aid them as little as
02:36:10 possible did you not consider that in itself um demonstrated a degree of in interference with the
02:36:23 with the group to a very limited extent but it was the least I could get away with without appearing
02:36:29 uncooperative why was it appropriate to interfere in this way in order that I could remain close to those other
02:36:44 two I want to look at page eight now please are the um same document
02:36:50 uh
02:36:58 where a national Port uh a national report appears I just want to look at something it says in relation to elections in the first paragraph says the Newbury byelection was a good campaign but sadly no matter how hard we worked the situation that prevailed of standing in two areas was a strain the
02:37:12 standing in two areas was a strain the good thing however was that the strategy for propaganda and support worked well with the March and the canvasing uh the return was certainly of value and great experience the other area in which we we are standing Red Hill is giving the
02:37:23 are standing Red Hill is giving the local uh group more work than ever but they're still working their campaign uh has been good considering uh the amount of of
02:37:38 of of workers uh and then at page 10 of the same document
02:37:48 please there's a uh further report um and Under The Heading emergency appeal it says this um as you all aware we're standing in a council election in Su and funds are very much
02:37:59 election in Su and funds are very much needed to run the campaign as you know leaflets and propaganda does not come cheap so please if anyone could spare a bit of do or come up with ways to raise money then we cannot stress enough how much it will be needed so please dig
02:38:10 much it will be needed so please dig deep in your pockets and if you can send all donations to the Red Hill Post Office box a big thank you goes out to all those who' have already made donations and raised cash
02:38:29 now is it right that one of the reasons for the split was that Tim Scargill wanted to pursue activity in in elections is that a fair observation possibly I I certainly can't remember the details of the split now does it follow from this document that
02:38:40 does it follow from this document that involvement in elections was something that was actively pursued by the class war
02:38:49 war organization in one or two isolated examp examples like this yes as a core member were you involved no not especially not involved in
02:38:58 in canvasing not that I recall leafleting as far as I recall we didn't do that attending election events I don't think there were
02:39:18 any could we look at 30325
02:39:30 please uh this is a c167 of the hard copy
02:39:50 bundle this is a um an intelligence report um dated 26th of uh J 1993 attributed to you hm122 it relates to the pathfind the Bookshop in the water Le area and Tim scargle just want to have a look at what it says um the Pathfinder book shop in
02:40:07 it says um the Pathfinder book shop in the cut London se1 apparently has been suffering attacks from the extreme rightwing group combat 18 it seems the owners of reason to believe that these attacks result from a mistaken belief by combat 18 that the class war
02:40:20 combat 18 that the class war organization has its newspaper class war printed there in fact it is printed by the class war Federation in Bristol and there is no connection between cwo or CWF and the Bookshop the journalist lario harus stated that comat 18a
02:40:33 lario harus stated that comat 18a targeting CW and in particular it national organizer Tim scargle the latter attributes to cat the appearance of stickers on his house and the
02:40:45 of stickers on his house and the threatening phone calls recently reive in fact he's even considering moving house because of it
02:41:01 so we can see uh that you're reporting uh attacks there uh by combat 18 on the Pathfinder Bookshop is that right yes and threats uh made uh by the far right
02:41:13 threats uh made uh by the far right directed uh to Tim Scargill is that correct yes did you consider those threats to be genuine I can't recall now where that information came from other than from Tim
02:41:25 Tim Scargill did you do anything to make sure that this sort of intelligence reached the right part of the police force that would monitor the situation so the force local to the Bookshop or the force local to Tim Scar's home I
02:41:41 the force local to Tim Scar's home I reported it in the normal channels for others to take that action so the the answer is no is that right yeah I wasn't in a position to ring up the local
02:41:54 in a position to ring up the local police and tell them no uh but you were in a position to impress upon uh your DS's or your managers uh that threats were being made and that some needs to be brought to the right people's attention is that fair
02:42:11 right people's attention is that fair yes hence the report yes did you but did you speak to them independently of your reporting possibly I can't recall you can't
02:42:18 recall all right uh can we look um at another document please which is uh
02:42:23 30317 um c163 of the hard copy
02:42:36 bundle this is a um this's a report um dated the 6th of July 1993 attributed to you it relates to a planning meeting of something a
02:42:47 to a planning meeting of something a group called the unity group that was held on the 1st of July 19 1993 and the unity group um represented a number of individual groups opposed to to Fascism and racism and we can see from the head of
02:43:04 racism and we can see from the head of this report that the class organization was listed as one of the organizations that was involved uh together with others uh and uh I think it in the
02:43:18 others uh and uh I think it in the second uh paragraph it's uh it's obvious that there were other groups forgive me it's not second paragraph the second page we can see that the uh a list of groups just towards the bottom groups represented that were uh that were in attendance at the
02:43:29 attendance at the meeting um just want to show you another uh report in relation to this group it's
02:43:38 3319 and it's at c164 of the hard copy
02:43:52 bundle uh again attributed to date of the 13th of July 1993 and it relates to this report relates to Unity group activity in opposition to a right-wing local election candidate in houndslow and if we look at page two
02:44:09 two uh it looks like um you were present at the activity because your your cover name appears there do you see that yes uh uh you I think you report that this um activity um failed due to lack of
02:44:30 organization um and uh we can see though sticking with page
02:44:31 with page two uh again a number of different groups uh represented do you see that
02:44:43 groups uh represented do you see that yes now at uh I think you said in your witness statement uh that you have no
02:44:55 witness statement uh that you have no recollection of the the unity group do you remember saying that that yes you also said that um you may have been class Wars or the class war organization's official representative within the group do you remember saying that no all right well let's look at uh page 57
02:45:06 page 57 please uh paragraph um 180
02:45:24 uh says I consider the reporting on the unity group uh and as far as I can recall it was an umbrella group that included a number of organizations my only interaction with it was as a member of class war it may be that I was even
02:45:39 of class war it may be that I was even the group's official representative it seems that all the the organizations that participated were opposed to right-wing activist activities forgive me uh and there was therefore the potential for public order intelligence to emerge from its meetings did you see that
02:46:04 yes um if we go to uh ucpi 30724
02:46:06 30724 please ucpi 30724 this is a tab uh b38 hard copy
02:46:22 bundle uh but it's a it's a document we'll look at a little later but I just want to look at page 11 please of this
02:46:30 document and this document is the record of your debrief with the security service on the 10th of September 1993 at the conclusion of your deployment just have a look at page 11
02:46:42 have a look at page 11 please right forgive me page three paragraph
02:46:49 11 thank you paragraph 11 says that the cwo has however joined the unity group where different anti-fascist groups meet to pool information and discuss joint activity the group began as the
02:47:07 activity the group began as the brainchild of privacy from Hackney and has grown London wide uh most groups involved are um anarchists and trot trist groups um have been uh excluded uh except in Hackney as their thought to exploit all opportunities for their objectives that the unity group
02:47:20 their objectives that the unity group has been in effective and works only as an arena to pull information uh since groups are unwilling to compromise their own aims um both uh class war Federation and panther attended the first few
02:47:32 and panther attended the first few meetings but but have since dropped out do you see that hm122
02:47:37 yes just bear with me a moment please
02:48:00 yes do you um do you accept that uh now that you did have some sort of role on behalf of class war in the unity group it would appear that I may well have been nominated I suppose U but I have no clear recollection now but it
02:48:15 have no clear recollection now but it appears from this document that you were able to provide the security service with information as to uh who who instigated the group and where that person was from do you see
02:48:27 where that person was from do you see that well yes but that was a few months afterwards um and who were involved in the
02:48:33 the group well yes who wasn't involved sorry who wasn't involved who wasn't involved well forgive me you you able to provide intelligence as to who wasn't involved as well right yeah people who were excluded groups that were excluded yeah
02:48:57 was your involvement uh in this group again uh indicative of the the prominence or level of prominence that you'd reached in the class war organization that you were being sent out as their representative in this
02:49:12 representative in this group I don't think it indicates any particular prominence just the difficulties I had operating within a very small pool and not being able to refuse every request what was the relationship between class war and the
02:49:25 relationship between class war and the unity group I couldn't tell you now did your involvement in this group uh the unity group that is provide access to other groups I'm sorry I really can't recall anything about the activities of the UN
02:49:37 the UN group can you remember whether you underwent any sort of briefing or
02:49:52 you underwent any sort of briefing or undertook any research of your own as to the political disposition or the threat posed by any of these other groups I wouldn't have been in a position to undertake any research but I would certainly have spoken to the managers about it
02:50:10 yes did you make an assessment of what information to include in your report in relation to groups other than class war or or or or or or did you just provide all the information that you could recollect my reporting on it would be purely factual if the group was represented I would report that they
02:50:21 represented I would report that they were is there any particular reason that you can recollect why you were reporting on activity that was concerned with the opposition of fascism uh purely in relation to public
02:50:39 order um can we look at 30123
02:50:40 30123 [Music]
02:50:46 [Music] please this is a c96 of the hard copy bundle
02:50:55 now um this is a report dated the 30th of June
02:50:57 of June 1992 and it's attributed to you and it's about class war Federation act action at uh the Oxford University ball something we touched on
02:51:08 ball something we touched on earlier which occurred on the 27th of June 1992 and it was refer to as a smash theer
02:51:15 theer demonstration I just want to look at what um the this report says it says this smash the rich smash the rich demonstration at the end of year Oxford
02:51:27 demonstration at the end of year Oxford University ball was attended by about 10 class war activists members the remainder of those present uh were local class war contacts from various Punk and squatter groups the demonstration was arranged by the Oxford class war
02:51:39 arranged by the Oxford class war organization organizer uh privacy the protest was to have consisted uh of the shouting of insults and abuse to ballg
02:51:53 shouting of insults and abuse to ballg goers and the unfurling of a large class war Banner in the unlikely event of an opportunity itself forgive me an opportunity arising the demonstrators intended to infiltrate the ball itself but if all else failed the plan was to disperse to uh local pubs where the ball
02:52:08 disperse to uh local pubs where the ball get where ball guests might be found and to cause as much disruption as possible the demonstration started at about 1845 but it was badly organized uh uh the participants decided uh
02:52:21 participants decided uh independently uh to break off in small groups and harass anyone in evening dress throughout the Town Center this led to scuffles and inevitable arrests but no serious incident occurred some small groups returned uh to the picket
02:52:38 small groups returned uh to the picket line from time to time but there was no real enthusiasm about 23 at about 2330 hours a large Gathering of local yous was dispersed from outside University College by police with several arrests being made at midnight the remaining class war activists left the scene
02:52:51 class war activists left the scene senior class War figures consider the event to have been a partial uh success uh despite poor organization and enthusiasm that many of the bll guests
02:53:03 enthusiasm that many of the bll guests were suitably insulted and inconvenience and the ensuing publicity has proved uh particularly
02:53:13 satisfying um would you accept that that um reads as a firsthand account of events
02:53:14 events hm122 yes it appears so and does it follow from that that it's likely that that you attended yes that's quite possible now um Norman Blair says this
02:53:32 possible now um Norman Blair says this about um this event uh Neil was involved at the smash the rich demonstration in Oxford against the Shelly ball on the 27th of June 1992 about 40 people were present including myself privacy Tim scargle and Phil guard Phil says Neil gave him a lift there in his car on the way they
02:53:46 lift there in his car on the way they discussed Spain and his love of flamco Music Phil says the demonst ation was extraordinary and that the police seem to have been withdrawn he believes that
02:53:58 to have been withdrawn he believes that the Oxford student newspaper had written something um critical about the chief Constable of TS Valley and this was thought to be the explanation C can you remember whether you uh drove up there in a vehicle no I think that person's confusing me with
02:54:10 think that person's confusing me with somebody else can you remember whether you gave a lift to Phil guard I certainly don't recall that now did you witness any of these scuffles or restr that that took place I can't recall myself but it's
02:54:24 place I can't recall myself but it's likely I suppose so if I was asked if I was to ask you what sort of activity you saw you wouldn't be able to help me I don't recall it clearly now do you recall
02:54:45 anything it sounds very familiar but no I don't have a particular memory of that that event can you remember what you were doing at this event no
02:54:59 right now can I just take you to something you say in your witness statement uh this is Page uh 69 uh paragraph 226 to 227
02:55:23 um you say that with one exception um detailed below I did not witness any violence to people or property other than in the context of public disorder and I was not involved in violence during my time as a UC on one occasion
02:55:36 during my time as a UC on one occasion during my time with class war a member of a local group with which we had Linked UP whose name I cannot now remember but who was apparently well known for having a reckless streak started kicking a Rolls-Royce we all ran for it because otherwise there was a
02:55:47 for it because otherwise there was a significant possibility that we would all be arrested do you remember that incident I I remember that in U kick a
02:55:58 incident I I remember that in U kick a roll Royce was kicked but I don't recall where that was did you do anything to try and stop or disuade the individual who was kicking the vehicle it just happened in front of me so that's a
02:56:11 front of me so that's a no is that right I didn't know it was going to happen um it happened and then everybody Ran So no I couldn't intervene all
02:56:36 right uh in his witness statement Norman Blair um tells of a recollection by Phil guard that you were present in a pub on one occasion when a scuffle took place with some uh BMP activists he said it's not something you were involved in is that something you remember no as I say
02:56:48 that something you remember no as I say I think he's confusing me with somebody else
02:56:54 uh could we have a look at ucpi 30112
02:56:56 30112 please and that's c154 of the hard copy
02:57:12 bundle um this is a report dated the 10th of April 1993 that's attributed to you about the class war Federation in London just want to have a quick look at what this one says uh the class war Federation in London now only has
02:57:23 Federation in London now only has limited support mainly from uh the longer serving members with many activists disillusioned and choosing to stay away from meetings the the last London Gathering was attended by Norman Blair it gives another uh some other
02:57:34 Blair it gives another uh some other names that were redacted for privacy during that meeting uh privacy proposed a motion that privacy should be expelled as he's too friendly with Tim scargle of the Breakaway class organization
02:57:45 the Breakaway class organization although the motion apparently was not passed priv left the meeting in protest and almost certainly the result will be that privacy joins CWA privacy has decided not to attend meetings for the
02:58:00 decided not to attend meetings for the immediate future uh but remain active in the anarchist Community uh privacy privacy's partner has also decided not to attend uh future CWF uh meetings uh would you agree uh that the
02:58:13 meetings uh would you agree uh that the outlook for the class war Federation in London uh By the time of this report in April um
02:58:25 April um 1993 uh that you were reporting was that was that of a group in Decline
02:58:35 Decline yes um take you to a document now please it's not in the bundle but it's uh MPS 0728 uh
02:58:41 0728 uh 968 uh and uh so this is a document that you have available in loose lease form and this is the uh SDS annual report report for 1992 and 1993 um dated the 30th of March
02:59:05 1993 and I want to have a look at please uh page 20 of the
02:59:18 document thank you um paragraph 2.8 says this if one considers numerically uh a numerically small group such as class war it'll be seen that the effect of the group far exceeds its
02:59:29 effect of the group far exceeds its capabilities because of its success in generating publicity and its attachment to other groups or types of people in itself class war poses no significant threat to public order but with in tandem when in tandem with others
02:59:43 tandem when in tandem with others members of CW are able to generate substantial degrees of unrest SCS coverage of class war of the past year has been highly Justified from the public order point of view to due to the availability it gives to assess accurately the numbers and behavior of
02:59:58 accurately the numbers and behavior of CW inspired participants this achieves in the first instance a saving uh a saving resources in terms of um police deployed both within the Metropolitan
03:00:11 deployed both within the Metropolitan Police District and in other Force areas or the prevention of potentially uh serious um
03:00:19 disorder and then if we could look at page 30 of the document
03:00:35 please paragraph uh 2 um 27 says uh this um the rump of the class war Federation uh remains in existence but its representation in London is so dissipated and L luster as to be
03:00:49 dissipated and L luster as to be ineffectual although the very name of it is still enough to cause alarm amongst the uniform the uniformed forgive
03:00:57 me and I think in your witness statement you agreed with that description of ineffectual do you remember that hm122 yes
03:01:02 yes yeah
03:01:05 yeah um paragraph uh 2.28 future SS coverage of class war hinges upon the development
03:01:16 of class war hinges upon the development or otherwise uh of the two uh concurrent uh factions
03:01:20 and then page 58 of the document
03:01:34 please redeployments in the wake of the changes to in the security services study of subversion have now been affected the coverage of the class war Federation will be reassessed during the forthcoming six months particularly in relation to the recent split within the
03:01:47 relation to the recent split within the Federation uh all other fields uh remain valid
03:01:52 uh and next could we have a look at a um Security Service file note which is at
03:02:04 3722 and that's b34 of the hard copy [Music]
03:02:11 bundle thank you uh this is dated the 9th of June 1993 and relates to a visit uh by the security service to the SDS in a meeting with DCI in 86 and dih in
03:02:28 with DCI in 86 and dih in 67 and it says this at paragraph 2 uh hn 86 outlined uh SS's current agent coverage hm122 had been retargeted from the RCP and now provided very good coverage of class war hm122 had moved to
03:02:45 coverage of class war hm122 had moved to the class war organization following the latter split from class war Federation hm122 was due to be terminated in September
03:02:46 September 1993 SS did not intend to use hm1 122's uh replacement in exactly the same role as mpsb did uh not believe uh cwo remained a significant
03:03:01 believe uh cwo remained a significant Law and Order threat he would probably be targeted against a group of non-aligned anarchist in Tottenham uh but would join um cwo devoting approximately a quarter of his time to
03:03:18 approximately a quarter of his time to this later to this latter Target the SCS thought it would be it would take hm1 122's replacement about a year to be properly accepted in the anist
03:03:26 scene were you are made aware of this assessment uh in relation to uh class war not this document but uh I was aware of the general assessment and I agreed with it yes
03:03:40 with it yes yes and we're talking in and around April uh 1993 is that right if that's the date of the document yes thank you um can we look at another document please this is ucpi
03:04:11 30724 uh and this is the um Security Service uh file note uh in relation to the debrief meeting that they had with you on the 10th of September
03:04:23 you on the 10th of September 1993 and I just want to look at um some of what's recorded in in this
03:04:32 document um paragraph uh uh two on page one please um the threat from both the class war
03:04:39 war organization uh and the class war Federation is perceived by source to be very low that both organizations still hold revolutionary goals through violent
03:04:50 hold revolutionary goals through violent Mass protest sweeping the rich away from power and influence however their funds and capability are low local groups May create local disturbance but the lack of an effective national network precludes larger scale activity only a few in
03:05:03 larger scale activity only a few in influential members of each organization have a strong theoretical and political basis for their activity uh most members support attacking The Rich And subscribe to a philosophy of politics with a laugh uh both cwo and CWF are unlikely to
03:05:15 uh both cwo and CWF are unlikely to generate any unrest but in in a manner similar to the Socialist Workers Party they aim to exploit and encourage existing unrest without leading it um
03:05:27 existing unrest without leading it um the CW has a core of 35 members and this figure is likely to remain a ceiling until a large issue arises upon which the CWA can recruit the organization
03:05:40 the CWA can recruit the organization also has around 50 peripheral members or sympathizers who being anarchists float in and out of activity uh but always retain at least uh distance contact uh to the Core um and then can we look uh please at
03:05:55 um and then can we look uh please at paragraph 20 of this document which is at page
03:06:06 four now this says um Source was a member of class war before the split and the decision was made for him to join uh cwo rather than CWF source is still able to give an overall picture of activity in CWF but is unable to provide great
03:06:21 in CWF but is unable to provide great details the CWF has a membership of 100 to 120 although many of these members are only sporadically in contact with the party since the split of class war in early 1993 the class war Federation has retained the more politicized but
03:06:35 has retained the more politicized but less active members as it has kept the classful reputation it is still attractive to the society's disillusion and has maintained membership levels uh since the
03:06:47 since the split uh and then finally please page five paragraph
03:06:58 26 at source believes that both uh cwo and CWF will continue to exist as uh leading uh Anarchist organizations but at a very low threat to National Security their perceived threat continues to be greater than their
03:07:13 continues to be greater than their actual threat uh due to a persistent Street reputation and over-generous media attention
03:07:21 so it's recorded there that your assessment was that the threat to National Security from both class organization and class war Federation uh was very low is that an
03:07:33 Federation uh was very low is that an accurate record of your assessment at the time yes I think so thank you um can we look now at another document that's not in the hard copy bundle but so you have this in in Loosely form it's
03:07:50 Loosely form it's 1993 uh to 94 uh SDS annual report uh and it is
03:07:52 and it is um dated the 30th of March
03:07:57 1994 so MPS 07 22654
03:08:33 we could just go to page 13
03:08:52 please just want to look at the opening line of paragraph uh 1.7 which says this this in the last 12 months the SS has withdrawn from class war which is no longer worthy of full
03:08:55 coverage and then page 35
03:09:05 please at paragraph
03:09:12 2.23 um the past year saw a continuation of the steady decline in the number and commitment of anarchists in general the sdsc it coverage coverage of class war that when the officer deployed there
03:09:28 that when the officer deployed there became there became due for his return to other duties uh since then the two factions of class war have rarely uh been seen in public and then finally page 59 of this document
03:09:45 please and then right at the bottom the coverage of the class war Federation cease in September all other fields remain valid
03:09:59 um hm122 is this a fair summation of the position of class war towards the end of the
03:10:17 the deployment yes sir no yes just just wait for it please no no public order threat in itself small memberships with sporadic participation CWF
03:10:24 CWF ineffectual stdf believing that cwo no longer remained a significant Law and Order threat and your own assessment that the threat level in relation to both factions was very low is that a fair assessment of of of what the position was like towards the end of
03:10:37 position was like towards the end of your deployment yes I would say so in those
03:10:38 those circumstances was it really justifiable for this declining organization to have been targeted and infiltrated by the SDS it wasn't clear that that was the
03:10:50 it wasn't clear that that was the situation until a certain point and at that point the decision was made not to continue coverage but before that it could have gone a different way I think you agreed a little earlier that by
03:11:06 you agreed a little earlier that by April in your own assessment that this was uh that the threat was low um did you convey that to your managers whilst you were still in the field
03:11:19 field I think that was from a management document wasn't it forgive
03:11:26 me see if I can find the uh
03:11:38 quote yes group group and decline I think is what you agreed with as your assessment in April 1993 do you remember that yes but as I say the situation wasn't certain that they would simp simply de keep carry on declining and
03:11:55 simply de keep carry on declining and disappear there came a point when it was clear that they were declining did you ever have a conversation around that time with your managers to point out that this
03:12:01 that this group was in Decline and whether there was any Merit and reviewing and whether it was worth carrying on that would be
03:12:12 it was worth carrying on that would be an ongoing conversation as to what the state or the groups were and the decision was taken that you did carry on was it
03:12:19 was it up until the point when the decision was made not to was not my decision to make all right can we look at a document in relation to another group please this is uh U uh MPS
03:12:31 is uh U uh MPS 07462
03:12:34 55 and this is tab c151 of the hard copy
03:12:45 bundle Z 7
03:12:56 46255 and if we could just um move to page two please where we'll see um hm122 uh unique identifier Cipher um that is a document date of the 9th of uh
03:13:11 that is a document date of the 9th of uh or the report which will come to is date of the 9th of February 1993 which is attributed to uh m122 uh we go to the report itself page three
03:13:21 three please it it uh relates to a group called the land London antio tax activist forum and and simply attaches minutes of the group's meeting
03:13:39 um around this time so February 1993 uh you were infiltrating class war is that
03:13:46 is that right uh yes I would have been uh and by all means take your time to look at it if you want to um the minutes are uh carry on over the pages if you need to
03:13:57 carry on over the pages if you need to be shown them but there's no mention in this report or or or or in the minutes to to class class War uh can you remember how you came to report on this group I have no recollection of that at
03:14:13 all if I was then to ask you how this reporting was justifiable given that on its face it had nothing to do with your target would you not be able to assist me uh if you say it makes no reference
03:14:24 me uh if you say it makes no reference to class war then no I have no idea why it would be reported would you agree then that on its face this was not a report that ought to have been submitted I can't see any reason to do
03:14:38 submitted I can't see any reason to do it it's not a group I can recall at all I no idea who they are um next please ucpi 30347
03:15:00 uh this is at C4 of the hard cobby bundle it's uh we can be c14 I think
03:15:08 think no just bear with me a
03:15:21 moment C4 I'm grateful sir um it's a report um dated the 27th of February
03:15:22 February 1990 attributed to you uh and it's about a public meeting organized by the Camden branch of the RCP so this is back in 1990
03:15:32 1990 now uh on the 22nd of February and I just want to look at what it says at paragraph
03:15:38 paragraph 4 um says at the conclusion of the meeting uh 9:45 p.m. it was announced that the Nick Mullen defense campaign in
03:15:49 that the Nick Mullen defense campaign in tend to hold a public meeting and social on Wednesday the 7th of March 1990 at 7:30 p.m. at the Camden Irish Center Mar Street
03:16:02 Street nw1 this meeting is being organized at least in part by the rcps associated organization the Irish Freedom Movement and I think uh you say in your witness statement hm122 that you don't
03:16:18 witness statement hm122 that you don't have any recollection of of of what Nick Mullen was accused of doing do you remember saying that yeah yes yes um did you have any idea of what this campaign was about at the time that you were reporting on it I I don't know I may or may not have
03:16:35 it I I don't know I may or may not have done all right would you accept that on its face it looks like that this was a some sort of Justice campaign appears to be yes how did you come to report on this Jus Justice campaign it's in connection with an a
03:16:53 campaign it's in connection with an a meeting organized by the Irish Freedom Movement was the uh connection to the ifm the only reason that merited inclusion of information in relation to this campaign in that report sorry as I
03:17:18 know were you ever given any guidance or training on providing Intelligence on elected
03:17:20 elected politicians not specifically no you you say not specifically what what guidance or training were you given well generally within special Branch
03:17:36 well generally within special Branch uh they would they would not be subject of files because they're elected politicians and that brings me to my next question were you aware whether files were kept on elected politicians no I don't know you don't
03:17:51 politicians no I don't know you don't know do you see any files like that for yourself during your time in special branch no not I can recall other than historical
03:18:03 FS have you ever heard the expression bulk
03:18:10 file it sounds familiar I can't recall what it means so you can't you can't help me with what that means is that right not at this time no not
03:18:30 was it ever necessary to include information about elected politicians in intelligence reports if one was to come across them or come across mentions of them uh if a politician addressed a particular meeting as a simply as a matter of record it might be
03:18:42 matter of record it might be noted do you know what would be done with such
03:18:47 information I thought would depend on who who it was so I would simply be
03:18:58 who who it was so I would simply be reporting the fact that a politician was present as that may indicate it's a legitimate meeting as opposed to anything
03:19:05 else um just want to remind you of something
03:19:14 um just want to remind you of something you said in your witness statement which was that you witnessed public order uh while you're an undercover officer uh but it was only really only scuffles during demonstrations there was nothing that you saw that went beyond minor public order offenses do you remember
03:19:27 public order offenses do you remember saying that yes all right just want to look at a couple of examples with you please uh
03:19:29 please uh 30103 please ucpi 30103 which is at C50 of the hard copy
03:19:45 bundle uh this is a report dat of the 22nd of January 1991 attributed to you it's uh a hands-off the Middle East committee picket held in central London on the 17th of January
03:19:57 17th of January 1991 and I think you accept I can take you to to the part of your statement if you want me to but I think you accept in your statement that you probably attended this event right um just want
03:20:08 attended this event right um just want to look at what this says um it says on
03:20:19 to look at what this says um it says on Thursday the 17th of January 1991 the ad hoc hands off the Middle East committee uh an organization sponsored and controlled by the Revolutionary Communist party uh held an evening picket outside the United States Embassy grna Square W1 to protest at US military action in the Gulf in the event the
03:20:31 action in the Gulf in the event the picket became a march to trafala square and then to Downing Street in Parliament Square s sw1 uh there was some minor disorder in whiteall and then just
03:20:46 disorder in whiteall and then just skipping to paragraph um five please it deals with that disorder it says a police
03:20:49 police Cordon was established in whiteall and on approaching uh on approaching them the March paused but was then encouraged to charge the police lines uh the main
03:21:02 to charge the police lines uh the main instigators of this action were privacy privacy privacy and privacy although privacy and privacy were in overall control and undoubtedly organized the move the charge failed and although some placards were thrown at police the situation was calm by access being
03:21:14 situation was calm by access being allowed along the footway in whiteall on the far side from from down street Street do you see that uh and I just want to take you to another example please it's uh 1 19949 ucpi
03:21:31 19949 uh this should be c99 of the hard copy
03:21:48 bundle and uh this is a report um authored um or attributed to un hn9 who was an officer that was deployed into the swp uh dated the 7th of July 1992 um and it relates to a
03:22:01 1992 um and it relates to a demonstration outside the home of David Irving in central London on the 4th of July
03:22:02 July 1992 another um another event you say in your witness statement that you probably attended and we can see from the list of organizations
03:22:14 organizations involved um that the class War Federation was amongst them just want to look at what it says at the bottom of
03:22:26 look at what it says at the bottom of page one um on arrival uh um outside the um International students hostel um the Revolutionary internationalist League encouraged the crowd to Surge forwards to storm the police lines the attempt was half-hearted however and when a few
03:22:40 half-hearted however and when a few arrests and when a few arrests were made it persuaded a further 50 persons to leave the picket then proceeded quietly apart from an incident when stewards from the Jewish socialist group led a charge against some people who had emerged from the seminar to taunt the
03:22:52 emerged from the seminar to taunt the demonstrators later some anti-fascist action members of whom there were only about five all told uh discovered a rear entrance in the park Cresent and a small group of airfare and CWF supporters
03:23:03 group of airfare and CWF supporters gathered there in the event Irving was brought to this entrance by an unmarked police car and entered the building before the demonstrators had time to
03:23:17 before the demonstrators had time to react minor scuffles broke out later uh when a demonstrator chose to argue with a passer by um so we've looked at an example there in relation to the RCP and an example in relation uh to
03:23:34 relation uh to um class uh war was the sort of activity that you reported on in those two reports typical of the type of low-level disorder that you encountered whilst
03:23:50 disorder that you encountered whilst deployed within your groups during your time in the field it was uncommon but but uh that would be typical of any disorder yes all right um just one more report on on this subject please at 24859 ucpi 24859 which is at c75 of the hard copy
03:24:14 bundle uh and uh this is a report dated the 14th of November 1991 which is
03:24:29 the 14th of November 1991 which is attributed to uh hn uh 90 uh to U uh to uh hn uh 2 Andrew Kohl's and other sources uh uh and it relates to a demonstration opposition of the extreme rightwing in East London on the 10th of November
03:24:41 November 1991 were in fact U some minor conflict arose between your two groups the RCP and class War uh uh I just want to have a cck look at what happened
03:24:54 a cck look at what happened um starting at paragraph 7 on on page two please it says about 250 uh revolutionary Communist Party activists in the guise of workers Against Racism attended and although there were some
03:25:06 attended and although there were some minor disturbances during the march it's not believed that any of those any of these were involved a minor scuffle at the final rall is detailed below the tactics of the RCP were to March as a
03:25:19 tactics of the RCP were to March as a single contingent under their own uh W banners and to place approximately 50 people alongside the march to sell propaganda and collect money if the opportunity had Arisen they were prepared to take over or split away from
03:25:31 prepared to take over or split away from the main March but in the event this was not considered desirable as usual the RCP contingent was tightly ested by about 60 activists split into teams under the overall direction of Kirk leech uh privacy uh the team leaders
03:25:47 leech uh privacy uh the team leaders were privacy privacy and privacy uh plac at the front rear left and right of the contingent respectively at the final rally and Alto B Park uh the RCP attempted to hold their own rally at the same time as the organizers were holding theirs which immediately incensed some members of the crowd a small group
03:25:58 members of the crowd a small group believed to be class war supporters ran at the RCP Banner uh which resulted in a small scuffle where two people about 5'
03:26:10 small scuffle where two people about 5' 10 were hit by privacy about 6'4 uh this is simply a continuation of the bad feeling between the RCP and the other and other leftwing organizations now this is a report um that uh was submitted when you were
03:26:23 submitted when you were infiltrating uh the the RCP and I think it's right that um you you say in your witness statement that you were part of the rcps protect the
03:26:36 you were part of the rcps protect the banner group is that right that's right C can you tell us what that role involved please uh stewarding of the banner in
03:26:46 banner in essence uh did it ever result you having to engage in violence or or or or disorder no was there potential in that role for violence or disorder yeah in what circumstances was there
03:26:57 what circumstances was there potential if uh as is described there some another group tried to storm the banner as I believe had happened in the
03:27:09 banner as I believe had happened in the past and would you have been prepared to engage in violence or disorder if you had to well I I'd have to act the part but without committing any offenses
03:27:26 yes that difficult to act aart would you accept without committing an offense certainly difficult yes all
03:27:37 certainly difficult yes all right I just want to look at a couple of examples now please of of uh reporting against individual about individuals forgive me and can we start at 30177 which is a c21 of the the hard copy bundle
03:27:48 ucpi uh 3
03:27:54 0177 sorry it should be
03:28:09 c21 let's try again it's ucpi 30117
03:28:20 thank you now this is a report attributed to you dated the 22nd of May 1990 about a branch organizer uh of the central London branch of the RCP and it says
03:28:32 London branch of the RCP and it says this at paragraph three three privacy currently resides with privacy privacy another full member of the RCP and privacy age 11 years the couple are
03:28:46 privacy age 11 years the couple are usually referred to as being married although this has not been
03:28:56 confirmed uh next please Z 30224 which should be at c127 of the hard copy
03:29:00 bundle ucpi
03:29:12 30224 um this is a report attributed to you dated the 22nd of August 1990 about an individual support of the RCP and it says privacy a supporter of the north London branch of the
03:29:24 the north London branch of the Revolutionary Communist Party lives at privacy attends the Privacy School uh privacy privacy where he has just entered six form although he's very keen on RCP politics he is nevertheless an immature individual to the extent that
03:29:36 immature individual to the extent that he often uh brings his parents to public events um a situation tolerated but but
03:29:47 events um a situation tolerated but but disapproved of uh by the party he uses a false party name of privacy privacy was born around 197 3 and is described as follows height 5'7 medium build with short dark hair he wears glasses and speaks with a refined English accent although his parents are Irish and then ucpi
03:30:01 Irish and then ucpi 3010
03:30:06 3010 please this should be at C60 of the hard copy
03:30:15 bundle uh this is a report dated the 1st of July 1991 that's attributed to you about an individual supporter of the RCP and towards the bottom it says this privacy has been a support of the RCP for about 6 months having been recruited
03:30:35 for about 6 months having been recruited by her mathematics teacher at privacy it is quite possible that her interest was sparked by a crush on her teacher but she nevertheless has become a close supporter of the party and regular sells party propaganda and attends all um internal um meetings [Applause]
03:30:54 [Applause] um what was the purpose of reporting details in relation to school children
03:30:55 children uh still at school but from what I can gather there they're 17 years old so at the time they technically be young
03:31:06 the time they technically be young persons rather than children the child in the first report was 11 years old that was simply a matter of reporting the family makeup for purposes of identification and what about reporting on the 17year
03:31:20 and what about reporting on the 17year olds what was the purpose of reporting on them well certainly from that last one I would say there were safeguarding issues that needed to be addressed was safeguarding within the SS
03:31:32 safeguarding within the SS remit no that would be other officers but it would need reporting to
03:31:47 somebody do you suggest that these 17year olds were a threat in any way they were people who were liable to become RCP members and if they did they'd be very hard to identify at the time that you were reporting on them were they a
03:32:00 were they a threat individually no would you accept that this reporting was unnecessary I think it's debatable uh if you say it was unnecessary I'd accept that um ucpi
03:32:15 that um ucpi 30158 please which is at c26 of the um hard copy
03:32:32 bundle um this is dated the 19th of June 1990 it's about an individual supporter of the
03:32:33 of the RCP uh and it says that privacy is a loose supporter uh of the Revolutionary Communist party she lives in the basement flat at privacy uh a two-bedroom rented flat with another
03:32:44 two-bedroom rented flat with another woman who is not connected with the RCP privacy is a lesbian described as about 20 years old 5'6 with very short hair um why why did you report on the uh
03:33:00 hair um why why did you report on the uh living arrangements and sexuality of the subject of this report they're simply matters of facts for to Aid
03:33:17 identification I think you say in your witness statement that there was a security vetting purpose to this reporting do you remember saying that
03:33:26 that yes how was someone's sexual orientation relevant to any security concerns uh security vetting at that time was quite different to what it is now and it was considered relevant how was it relevant at that time it was one
03:33:44 was it relevant at that time it was one of the criteria set for National vetting why I don't know you'd have to ask the government
03:33:51 was information like this ever reported because it was considered useful in order to to recruit a possible informant no I didn't
03:34:02 informant no I didn't specifically uh report on anyone for the purposes of
03:34:11 recruitment um 30132 um please which is at c67 of the hard copy bundle
03:34:19 this is dated the 31st of July
03:34:29 1991 um and reads as follows privacy of privacy a close support of the Revolutionary Communist party as a relative who's employed by privacy to work on radar systems for the military he is apparently currently engaged on the development of a system that makes
03:34:41 the development of a system that makes uh enemy um radar uh show a false plot of The Vessel vle or aircraft using the system this work is apparently classified under the official Secrets
03:34:54 classified under the official Secrets act which he has signed but this does not prevent him telling his relative about it it's unclear whether he is fully aware of her involvement in the RCP no further details of the relative um are
03:35:07 um are known um what was the purpose of of this sort of
03:35:09 sort of reporting anybody subject to the official Secrets acts uh obviously is a security RIS if they're associated with revolutionary
03:35:23 Communists I think you saying your witness
03:35:29 witness statement uh that it was relevant to the issue of vetting for sensitive roles is that
03:35:33 that right yes other way of saying the same thing I
03:35:43 think and does it follow uh that it's your evidence that the SDS had a role in providing intelligence that could be used for vetting purposes that was my understanding of the purpose of reporting through to the security service did you have any concerns about
03:36:04 service did you have any concerns about uh providing intelligence to be used for this sort of purpose no why not I'm sorry why would I at
03:36:06 I at 30285 please ucpi 30285 which is at c42 of the hard copy bundle
03:36:26 [Music] um this is a report about an individual supporter of the RCP dated the 30th of October 1990 it says this um privacy is a close supporter of the West London branch of the Revolutionary Communist
03:36:38 branch of the Revolutionary Communist party that she's introduced to the party by privacy with whom she worked at privacy in the Privacy area until being made redundant uh on day and mon 1990
03:36:49 made redundant uh on day and mon 1990 privacy lives at privacy uh telephone number uh privacy where she rents a small flat privacy is a keen participant in all RCP activities and as she is also quite intelligent it's likely she'll be
03:37:00 quite intelligent it's likely she'll be encouraged to attain full membership of the party she's described as born uh Circa and it gives a year 5'6 tall slim build with short dark hair her only
03:37:12 build with short dark hair her only distinguishing feature is Rosy Cheeks which is apparently a result of a previous alcohol problem
03:37:21 um what was the purpose of reporting on the subject's previous alcohol problem because of the nature of the rosy cheeks that would be
03:37:32 that would be apparent and why was that detail important simply an identifying
03:37:45 detail um can we look please at 30310 it's at
03:37:49 c46 ucpi
03:37:55 um
03:38:07 30310 um dated the 23rd of November 1990 it's about an individual and says this privacy under the name privacy was identified at Day School uh on South
03:38:18 identified at Day School uh on South Africa organized by the RCP on Sunday the 11th November 1990 at the Africa Center 38 King Street privacy was attending with others from the south London branch of the RCP although it is not thought that he is himself a member or supporter of the party privacy is
03:38:31 or supporter of the party privacy is apparently living in the Wimbledon area although he's believed to have spent a lot of time recently in Nottingham um what was the purpose of reporting on an individual who was not thought to be a supporter or a member of the
03:38:42 the RCP on the base of this it appears that he is associating with RCP members it's
03:38:53 he is associating with RCP members it's important to there's a note to say that he's not a member or supporter how was this information of value if uh the information the individual concerned was not part of the group well if he's associating with members of the RCP somebody else may report that and take
03:39:08 somebody else may report that and take the inference that he's a member so this clarifies that he's not
03:39:49 hm122 um throughout your reporting um there are examples of um Intelligence being submitted in relation to people's education their employment and living arrangements there intellect and interests parentage death bereavement relationships marriage pregnancy
03:39:59 pregnancy children wider family attraction to others
03:40:08 others sexuality serious illness alcoholism and drug use victims of crime and previous criminal uh conduct would you agree that uh there were occasions when when you reported on some very private and personal details of people's
03:40:22 of people's lives yes I'm Sor did you not consider this to be uh overly
03:40:33 this to be uh overly intrusive I can't recall anything that I or I haven't seen anything that says it I now consider overly intrig it no so is that a convenient moment yes um how uh are we doing with VI finishing on time uh Target is about
03:40:49 VI finishing on time uh Target is about 6:00 we um confident we should be there or thereabouts yes um I was wondering whether the short handwriter would accommodate us by um continuing until we reach the point where we have to break to enable any further questions to be
03:41:02 to enable any further questions to be put yes to you to ask um Can can I ask whether you're willing to do that how long roughly will that be um so that she can
03:41:17 can um I hope maybe much 20 minutes to half an hour is that all right yes then let let's continue for 20 minutes or have now thank
03:41:18 now thank you um can we look at
03:41:28 30 there's more there's
03:41:41 more that's uh um reminded um by my learned friend Mr Sanders um that the witness May appreciate a break well I appreciate the reason for that and let
03:41:52 appreciate the reason for that and let me ask would do would you like a break t if you if the answer is yes of course we'll have no sir if if we're only talking another 20 minutes or so that would be fine thank you very much thank you sir there's the answer thank you I'm grateful aent
03:42:04 grateful aent 122 um could I just look at um one um other Report with you please this is
03:42:18 30135 uh which is at see 23 of the um hard copy
03:42:32 bundle and it's dated um the 5th of June 1990 and uh it uh relates to the rcps mag magazine living Marxism and just want to have a look at what this says uh it says that living Marxism the monthly magazine of the Revolutionary Communist
03:42:43 Revolutionary Communist Party um Remains the party's primary propaganda vehicle and a source of great pride for all involved in its publication public sales through news agents such as whh Smith uh have
03:42:54 agents such as whh Smith uh have apparently remained stable over the last few months in spite of adverse publicity for Marxism following recent events in Eastern Europe um sales at Railway
03:43:06 Eastern Europe um sales at Railway Station Outlets have shown a large increase uh one suggestion for this being that it helps people to sleep on Long
03:43:13 Long Journeys um was the comment about the publication helping people to sleep um your comment or or was it a sentiment
03:43:25 your comment or or was it a sentiment that you picked up amongst supporters and members of the party uh it may have been mine but I equally I wouldn't be surprised if I was
03:43:36 equally I wouldn't be surprised if I was told that by another member what was the policing purpose of reporting this sort of
03:43:37 of observation uh to detail the activities of the party and the importance in which they held it you say in your witness statement that
03:43:48 you say in your witness statement that the had the remark been yours it would
03:44:02 the had the remark been yours it would have amounted to justifiable levity on your part do you remember saying that yes I probably did was there room in your opinion for levity in uh intelligence reporting it's not something you have to include but don't see that it doesn't harm from time to time um I want to ask you now a little
03:44:18 time um I want to ask you now a little bit about your filtration and it's right that towards the end of your deployment in order to leave the field um I think you find a gradual loss of interest you tell us in your witness statement with class War uh and told the
03:44:33 statement with class War uh and told the group you'd met a girl and that you were going to live in a commune in Wales do do you remember saying that in your words was your withdrawal from the field planned yes were your managers aware of your withdrawal plan yes they they approve the plan
03:44:48 approve the plan um did they become involved in the plan in any way
03:44:55 no I just want to return to um something Norman Blair said in his witness statement and he says this about uh Phil guard he says Phil now believes he may have been the reason for Neil
03:45:06 have been the reason for Neil Richardson's sudden exit from class war probably pulled out by his SDS managers Neil rangi one evening after the split and they had a verbal argu about Neil's role uh in the split of of class war
03:45:21 role uh in the split of of class war Phil was suspicious after the split and it was very bad news for the class organization this split appeared to come out of nowhere and suggested a conspiracy behind the scenes Phil realized that there had been a secret there had been secret conversations
03:45:32 there had been secret conversations between Tim scargle and Ian bone that Neil had been involved in the reason was given to encourage um more action yet at the time class war was bigger than it had ever been and was creating groups
03:45:45 had ever been and was creating groups around the country and increasing the circulation of the paper Phil ended the conversation by accusing him of being a cop uh due to his role in the split after this conversation Neil was never seen again in retrospect it is likely
03:46:02 seen again in retrospect it is likely that he'd been pulled out by his STDs managers did you leave the uh group because you were accused of being a police officer no I think he's confusing me with somebody else from the other comments he makes
03:46:22 did you have any direct um contact with the security service during your deployment
03:46:30 no um before you deployed did you have any um idea that the security service and the SDS liased in relation to SDS deployments uh before I joined I had no
03:46:43 deployments uh before I joined I had no detailed knowledge of how they operated at all
03:46:46 at all were you aware whilst you were deployed that your managers were sharing details in relation to your Legend and deployment with um the security service no I didn't know they shared those
03:46:59 no I didn't know they shared those details knowing now that you do how do you feel about that I don't know why it was done uh in that
03:47:09 that format did you think that that exposed you to any additional risk to me it seemed unnecessary but then I don't know what the justification
03:47:28 was I just want to look at um an example of a a security service brief uh and that's a ucpi 1 uh
03:47:33 8315 and that's a B9 of the hard copy
03:47:48 bundle I say an example of a brief an example of a brief being handed over to the SDF yes so we can see this is a uh file note dat of the 14th of March 1990 uh it relates to security Ser service visit the SDS uh meeting with DCI Martin gray and dihm
03:48:04 DCI Martin gray and dihm 109 uh and it says at paragraph 2A that you had already plan to attend an RCP conference on the 17th to 18th of March and a brief was therefore I
03:48:16 March and a brief was therefore I therefore handed over a copy of uh brief serial uh second page only can you remember if Security Service briefs were ever provided to you no they weren't they
03:48:36 weren't um 31849 please which is at B12 of the hard copy n bundle so ucpi um 3 uh 1849
03:48:51 this is another uh Security Service file note uh dated the 15th of August 1990 I just want to look at what it says about uh u hm122 a London base SDS Source he
03:49:02 hm122 a London base SDS Source he provides good identifying details on London members and supporters and also information on activity in the London branches of the RCP since most national RCP events are held in London he is also able to cover these however being an SDS Source he
03:49:20 these however being an SDS Source he operates primarily primarily for police police requirements making tasking and feedback um more uh
03:49:35 feedback um more uh difficult um was it ever communicated to you whilst you were deployed um that um the security service provided feedback and and valued your intelligence I assumed there would be some mechanism but uh I wasn't aware of any in particular so you're never told when there was uh a
03:49:52 so you're never told when there was uh a particular glowing reference for certain intelligence that you'd submitted not from the security service no I
03:50:16 see just bear with me a moment please hm122 um could we Le look at please ucpi 26288 which is at b36 of the hard copy
03:50:38 bundle uh now this is a um Security Service communication that was submitted to the SS in advance of the the debrief that was held on the 10th of of September
03:50:39 September 1993 and you remember we we looked at that document a little a little earlier the the record of the
03:50:50 the the record of the debrief uh H and it's about um the class war organization and the class war Federation with with with a little bit about other groups uh towards the end if we just scroll through it's a a three-page
03:51:08 document that topics um of discussion include membership and structure and finances
03:51:10 finances objectives and elections
03:51:18 um were you debriefed well we know you were debriefed by the security service because we've seen the record at the conclusion of your deployment but can you remember whether this list of topics
03:51:37 you remember whether this list of topics or this brief was communicated to you in advance of that meeting not in advance no uh was the debrief conducted in in your real name cover name or or some other identity cover name I think
03:51:49 um we've uh looked um at the record um of your uh debrief um already um and uh I know you've had an opportunity to look at it when you're you're making your witness
03:52:09 you're making your witness statement um is the record or is the record of what you discussed at the debrief an accurate record I don't recall that now you don't recall C can you remember appreciate it sometime again now but can you
03:52:30 sometime again now but can you remember um whether um you were able to answer uh all of uh the um Security Services questions about class War I believe
03:52:38 so uh and if we just look at please ucpi 30723
03:52:46 it's a b37 of the hard copy
03:52:58 bundle um says that uh Security Service file note dated the 14th of September 1993 says on the 10th of September 1993 hm122 was debriefed by F2 Annie mashen
03:53:14 hm122 was debriefed by F2 Annie mashen uh and F2 DCI and 86 and uh redacted was and I were were also present the sessions were extremely useful hm122 responded well and made a point of ringing uh to uh thank me afterwards
03:53:29 ringing uh to uh thank me afterwards hm122 is now out of the out of class war organization and will shortly resume normal
03:53:36 normal duties now were you ever informed that the security service found um the debrief uh to be extremely
03:53:44 useful possibly um it wasn't something that bother bothered me particularly at the time of your deployment to what extent did you consider um or to what extent were you
03:53:56 consider um or to what extent were you aware that the deployment was influenced by the security service certainly in terms of the RCP it was my assumption that they would be
03:54:09 was my assumption that they would be involved um I wasn't aware that they were involved in monitoring class war until the DB was arranged
03:54:18 now you say in your witness statement that um moving on to another topic hm122 that you remember the SDS being visited by an assistant commissioner but you cannot recollect who that was do you
03:54:31 you cannot recollect who that was do you remember mentioning that in your witness statement that's correct yes having had some time to think C can you remember who the assistant commissioner was who visited or do you still not remember not now being careful as to the precise location or address please can you
03:54:45 location or address please can you remember where the VIS it took place it was in one of the safe houses all
03:54:53 right um can you remember if all of the then undercover officers attended that visit um most of them were they may have been one or two who weren't able to can you remember what the visit
03:55:05 you remember what the visit involved it was generally just um uh thank you for all your hard work and Well Done Carry On Any operational discussion or anything like that no no can you remember how long it
03:55:22 can you remember how long it lasted um not really my impression is half an hour an hour perhaps and did your managers brief you about it
03:55:27 about it beforehand they told us it would be happening yes they thought it would be happening all right um mentoring now please um
03:55:38 right um mentoring now please um hm122 uh uh and I think uh you've seen some documents that make reference to a mentoring team being in operation at the SDS but I think it's your evidence and you say in your witness statement that
03:55:51 you say in your witness statement that that puts it slightly too formally and your understanding was that a UC an undercover officer would be provided with a a point of contact if they wanted one in other words an experienced field officer who they could they could draw
03:56:04 officer who they could they could draw on if they needed advice is that a fair summation of your evidence yes I think it built upon what had existed already previously um but I don't recall it being
03:56:14 being uh strict um carefully assembled projects uh more of a we would like
03:56:25 projects uh more of a we would like people to help are you are you willing so uh you were mentored by uh uh hn9 uh feel free to refresh your memory of the of the name is that
03:56:36 name is that right yes that's correct and did you have any say uh when this Arrangement was um put together as to who your point of contact or or
03:56:47 to who your point of contact or or Mentor could be um yes I I'm free to turn it down was there a reason that you chose hm9 uh I didn't choose him I see all
03:57:05 right uh did you meet with hn9
03:57:11 hn9 regularly um yes off and on um every six months perhaps right a h 19's recollection is that he met with you what he tells us in his witness
03:57:28 what he tells us in his witness statement is he met with you uh twice in 1992 do you think it was more than that yes I would have think so and when you met how long uh would your meetings last um generally speaking it was a couple of hours chat in a
03:57:43 couple of hours chat in a pub and was the pub an appropriate venue to have uh discussions of the nature that you might have with your point of contact or your
03:57:56 have with your point of contact or your Mentor if it was designed to be a social meeting to see look after pastoral matters so it was yes a relaxed atmosphere were you concerned about
03:58:08 atmosphere were you concerned about being overheard in a public venue like that yes of course did you take any measures to make sure that you weren't all
03:58:18 right during the time that you were under H and 19 did you raise any issues of concern with him no not that I recall now I think it's right that um
03:58:33 recall now I think it's right that um you were later uh a point of contact or a mentor to DC Mark Jenner is that correct that's
03:58:50 correct and before we move on to your um relationship with Mr Jenner just want to focus just lastly on your experience of of being mentored under H and 19 do you consider that was that was an effective or a useful experience for you yes
03:59:03 you yes why simply moral support if you like and U an opportunity if I had a problem then I had another place to go okay
03:59:20 just bear with me
03:59:24 please just give me a moment please
03:59:37 hm122 now I think you say in your witness statement um um hm122 that um Mark Jenner wasn't as
03:59:51 as interested that wasn't as interested in having a point of contact and was much more it was much more difficult to to get him to make time to see you and that you go on to say you met
04:00:02 you and that you go on to say you met with him on half a dozen occasions at most he had no concerns did not feel that continuing the meetings were necessary uh so you didn't continue with them and you don't recall informing the office about that do you remember saying that um in your the statement yes I I
04:00:20 that um in your the statement yes I I don't remember a specific notification to the office but I'm pretty sure I would have mentioned it to them now Mark Jenner says in in his um uh witness statement that the arrangement between you and him lasted
04:00:32 arrangement between you and him lasted no more than a year do do you agree with
04:00:41 that I would recall slightly longer but round about that yes
04:00:52 round about that yes he says that the um sessions between you and him amounted to chats in the pub is that a fair representation what took place between you
04:00:58 you two
04:01:05 two yes did he raise anything related to his deployment with you
04:01:19 no now Mark jenri accepts having a SE seual relationship with a woman known to the inquiry is Allison from about mid 1995 until the conclusion of his deployment in uh April 2000 uh they also shared an address uh he's told the
04:01:33 shared an address uh he's told the inquiry and went on overseas holidays together do you remember whether you provided uh Mark Jenner with any advice about sexual relationships whilst in the field no I don't that we discussed
04:01:52 it did you ever become aware that he entered into a sexual relationship whilst he was deployed uh not until the allegations became
04:01:58 became public were you aware of any rumor or suspicion uh that he was engaged in a sexual relationship at the time of his deployment
04:02:11 deployment no were you aware that he was living with a female whilst deployed no did he ever confide in you uh about any sort of relationship with members of his Target groups
04:02:25 Target groups no did you ever get any indication that this was going on no was there anything about him that concerned you not on the times I met him
04:02:40 you not on the times I met him no had you known about the relationship would that have concerned you yes had you known about it what would you have done well I like to think I would have reported to the office
04:02:54 immediately looking back can you think of anything about his behavior that may have been an indicator to
04:03:06 to you um that he was uh having a relationship whilst deployed
04:03:17 no what about his unwilling to engage that you describe in your witness statement did that set question marks in your mind as to whether uh he was involved in anything he ought not to have been no uh the purpose of those meetings
04:03:31 been no uh the purpose of those meetings were to provide a channel for support if required many officers who were deployed would become very confident
04:03:45 would become very confident and uh Happy that they could cope with whatever situation they had and they didn't need the extra support it was just another difficult or just something
04:03:59 just another difficult or just something else they had to arrange and they didn't want to if they didn't see value in it did you feel that Mr Jenner's lack of Engagement was deliberate I felt it was his choice um if he didn't get a benefit from those meetings there was no point
04:04:13 meetings there was no point continuing did on the occasions you met him did he ever speak to you about his family
04:04:18 family life not particularly no did he ever say anything to you about um his situation that made you think that he was perhaps unhappy or that there were problems at home or anything like that no not at
04:04:29 home or anything like that no not at all you you say in a w in your witness statement there was a limit on how hard you felt that you could push uh Mr Jenner uh without endangering the
04:04:40 Jenner uh without endangering the relationship completely do you remember saying that yes what did you mean by that well simply if he was unwilling to meet there was no point me trying to force the issue is that then defeat the purpose of meeting at
04:04:51 purpose of meeting at all did you think there was anything about him or was there anything about him that made you think that he might need pushing to open up about it was
04:05:04 need pushing to open up about it was only his reluctance uh to agree a date to meet
04:05:07 to meet um that's the only thing I consider whether I should start insisting on it but as I said say that would defeat the point of being there as a friendly shoulder so uh no did you make um SDS
04:05:23 shoulder so uh no did you make um SDS management aware that Mark Jenner wasn't engaging with you I don't remember specifically as I said but I'm pretty sure I would have to report it back and before the arrangement uh
04:05:41 back and before the arrangement uh commence before your UH point of contact arrangement with Mark Jenner commenced were you briefed about him at all or provided any information about his personal background ground or his family life or anything like that
04:05:55 no during your deployment was your welfare uh formally monitored by your managers I assume so yes uh you you say you assume so was there anything that you remember that was explicitly done um in order to monitor your welfare no uh were there
04:06:12 monitor your welfare no uh were there any informal Arrangements in place to to uh monitor your welfare well we were meeting twice a week so I rely on their
04:06:24 week so I rely on their observation and we you content with the way that you were looked after during your
04:06:25 your deployment on a purely personal level
04:06:32 yeah um at the conclusion of your deployment were there any resources made available to you in order to assist your integration back into ordinary
04:06:47 integration back into ordinary life no specific resources no but if had an issue I go back to the management of SDS uh I think you mentioned in your witness statement that you were offered a series of meetings with possibly a psychologist as part of an initiative
04:06:59 psychologist as part of an initiative that Martin gray started do you remember do you remember saying that in your witness statement I think that was after I returned to the main office rather than During the period uh of uh
04:07:15 uh of uh redeployment I may you're wrong on that yes yes so I'm might be cross purposes but I'm talking about the following the
04:07:27 but I'm talking about the following the conclusion of your deployment all right so anything that was done to help you after your deployment had come to an end
04:07:32 end um did you take up the offer of meeting with with anybody no
04:07:36 no um why did you feel that you didn't need
04:07:41 to an absence a feeling that I did need
04:07:57 to can you assist us with any whether any formal steps were taken by the SDS or special Branch or The Wider Metropolitan Police Service to check on and ensure the welfare of you and your family after your deployment had come to an
04:08:07 an end I don't think there was anything formal no were any Welfare Services made made available to you or your family as a result of your SDS
04:08:18 a result of your SDS deployment not specifically but I was aware that I could approach them if I needed
04:08:31 to did your deployment impact on your welfare in any way not in any significant way no I think you describ in your witness statement some minor panic attacks when you thought you recognized somebody at a railway station
04:08:46 recognized somebody at a railway station is that right yeah yes did anything else happen
04:08:52 no did your deployment impact on the welfare of your family well it was a major disruption to them at that time
04:09:05 them at that time certainly hn22 I have no more questions for you at this stage thank you sir we will now have a quarter of an hour's break you're almost at the end um can I reassure you thank you
04:09:42 for
04:31:40 e e
04:32:39 um so I'm grateful for the time there are a few um areas of followup that I
04:32:51 are a few um areas of followup that I ask to address hopefully we can resolve that in in uh not too long a time um hm122 can I just ask um about Peter Francis um did you ever act as a mentor
04:33:03 Francis um did you ever act as a mentor in any capacity to Peter Francis no does the term field me field Mentor mean anything to you it sounds familiar but no I don't recall it such were you ever involved in assisting um Peter
04:33:20 ever involved in assisting um Peter Francis or or advising him as to what an appropriate Target group or Target area might be for him no absolutely
04:33:29 not um there were some aspects of um Norman Blair's uh evidence that were put to you and your response on more on more than one occasion was that Mr Blair must have been confusing you um with
04:33:41 must have been confusing you um with with uh somebody else do you remember giving that answer yes now now if you're talking about a specific somebody else please don't say give us any names all right but is your evidence that is is
04:34:01 right but is your evidence that is is your evidence that um you're saying that Norman Blair was confusing you with a specific
04:34:08 specific individual or or is it that because of the evidence that he's provided the narrative that he's provided you consider that it must be somebody else he he's talking about from his statement uh he makes two comments that were
04:34:19 uh he makes two comments that were reported to him by somebody else one is which that person said they had accused
04:34:30 which that person said they had accused somebody of being C and there's another comment he makes in there which in my view cannot never would be attributed to me it's just the specific of what he says therefore I conclude that that
04:34:41 says therefore I conclude that that person is thinking of somebody else right but is it your conclusion that he's thinking about a specific individual that somebody you know you're aware of or or or is did you just make
04:34:54 aware of or or or is did you just make that deduction from from The Narrative that he's given I'm not aware that anybody was accused of being a cop during the time that I was
04:35:09 there um we um covered briefly the um uh topic of reporting on elected politic itions and you made reference to seeing uh some historical files what did you mean by historical files oh I'm afraid that in the they've now been put in an
04:35:25 that in the they've now been put in an archive but there was at one time even a file on Adolf
04:35:33 Hitler but uh is it your evidence that you
04:35:34 you saw uh old files on uh elected politicians no I never saw those okay
04:35:49 what did you mean by historical files can you just help us what what you meant by that was your your expression only that it's entirely possible that a political activist from extreme nature might have been reported on in the past and therefore historical but might subsequently become a politician I
04:36:09 see so uh are you saying that from your recollection this would have been activity before uh an individual became an elected member of parli yes as far as I'm aware no inquiries were ever carried out against elected
04:36:31 politicians um we spoke a little bit about sanitizing reports and I think it was um around 1989 when you were in the back um back off office um of the
04:36:47 back off office um of the SDS but were you ever involved in the sanitization of reports no the my role in the back office was administrative rather than
04:36:59 office was administrative rather than any executive function in sanitizing my role that was if individuals were mentioned to get the file reference and so
04:37:04 so on
04:37:10 on um can you remember of anybody that was involved in that role I assume that the managers may have sanitized if they thought something shouldn't be in there but generally speaking the principle was that the
04:37:22 speaking the principle was that the information was reported back to the desk and the desk would then sanitize any further dissemination of that information do you have any direct
04:37:35 information do you have any direct experience of that process no uh so if I to ask you how frequently it happened would you be able to assist me no I'm
04:37:46 would you be able to assist me no I'm afraid not if I were ask to ask you who was involved in that process would you be able to assist me not the individuals on the desk no um but otherwise the detective Chief Inspector and inspector it would be
04:37:57 Inspector and inspector it would be their role to do that uh if I were to ask you um whether you were able to give any examples of sanitization taking
04:38:09 any examples of sanitization taking place is that something you could help with no not that I recall
04:38:14 um just bear with me
04:38:25 please I'm being reminded that um you made reference in your evidence to sanitizing uh of reports being undertaken under supervision what did you mean by
04:38:36 that I'm sorry I don't recall the context of saying
04:38:44 that um um do you have any idea what happened
04:38:50 happened to um material that was removed from intelligence reports whether it was retained in any form or anything like that no as I say um I can't think of a specific example um I'm really saying
04:39:04 specific example um I'm really saying that if it was to be sanitized it would only be DC who would do that uh it wouldn't have been my role in the back office nor that the sergeants I see um a little bit on on on John dmes
04:39:18 see um a little bit on on on John dmes um how well did you know um John dines uh he was there when I first arrived um I'm not sure exactly how long he before he
04:39:31 he left um were you aware whether he uh operated within the same sort of geographical area was deployed in the
04:39:44 geographical area was deployed in the same sort of geographical areas that you were I really was wasn't aware of where he was operating specifically did you come across him whilst in the field no um to what extent did you communicate um with um John
04:40:04 dyes uh during the meetings we would U chat probably and I think on one occasion I helped him move some furniture
04:40:09 furniture right um did you ever see him in any demonstrations
04:40:20 demonstrations no did you ever see him with Helen steel no um you told us about a gardy comment that he made which you described as being in character for
04:40:31 him what aspect of of John D's character are you referring to only that he was a very outgoing
04:40:40 character how are you able to to remember
04:40:44 remember uh or recollect that he made a boardy comment without being able to to recollect what that comment actually actually
04:40:59 was that's all I can recollec ofely did you challenge John dyes about this
04:41:00 this comment as I say that's all I can recollect of it can you remember whether you raised raised that comment with any uh SDS
04:41:09 uh SDS managers no
04:41:18 can you remember if there was a reason why you didn't raise it with any manager as I say I really can't recollect um were you aware that John dyes was arrested at the um pole tax demonstration
04:41:29 demonstration yes uh what did you know about that only uh that he reported it afterwards when at the next meeting did you know any the detail of
04:41:44 meeting did you know any the detail of what he was supposed to have done or any detail of the
04:41:49 arrest uh did you ever discuss the M Lial litigation with John dyes I didn't discuss it with him he may well have mentioned it because it was
04:42:03 well have mentioned it because it was very current at the time do you have any recollection of of him mentioning it to you no no no specific example do you have any recollection of anyone else um discussing the mlal litigation uh no I don't think anybody
04:42:18 litigation uh no I don't think anybody else had any input on that by the time U that uh John D's deployment had come to an end did you have any welfare concerns about
04:42:27 about him
04:42:34 no um you told us a little bit about avoiding advances uh and um you your evidence was uh I think that various people had various
04:42:50 various people had various options uh can you just help me a little bit with what you meant by that was it the case of an individual say for example a manager that said to you well various people have various options or or was it or was it that the topic had been discussed by various people and
04:43:02 been discussed by various people and they all gave sort of different options as to what might be appropriate thing to do those circumstan does
04:43:13 do those circumstan does matter it was just subjects of conversation from time to time C can you remember who amongst your colleagues um you engaged in with these conversations
04:43:30 no um just want to revisit very briefly um the content of a report I'm sure you remember it um but we'll bring it up if you if we we need to uh where you're
04:43:41 you if we we need to uh where you're reporting on uh a girl um who was said to have a crush on her teacher do you remember we we yes spoke about that just before the break uh what made you think that the subject of that report had a crush on
04:43:56 subject of that report had a crush on her teacher I would only be reporting what other members of the RCP had
04:44:12 said did you think that um that expression about her involve the sexualization of the subject in any way I don't know what the content of it was other than reporting the
04:44:35 comment now you helped us a little bit with Mark Jenner uh and you told us that you had you known that he'd engage in a sexual relationship whilst deployed you'd like to you'd like to think that you'd have reported him to uh your superiors do you remember uh do you
04:44:46 superiors do you remember uh do you remember giving that evidence yes now I appreciate this is hypothetical but is is there any reason that you can think of uh that you might not have reported
04:44:58 of uh that you might not have reported uh somebody for engaging in that sort of conduct
04:45:03 no and finally um this hm forgive me
04:45:23 just a yes or no answer to this question please uh and um please don't tell us I'm going to ask you about documents please don't tell us what the document was all right but did you ever have a document in the full real name of the
04:45:38 document in the full real name of the deceased child uh whose um identity that you used
04:45:41 you used I don't recall doing so but it's quite possible as you asked that I had a copy of a death skip of it uh yes or no um did you ever have a passport
04:46:05 no thank you hm122 that's all I ask do you have any reexamination no thank you very much for your patience
04:46:16 no thank you very much for your patience and perseverance and for doing your best to remember what happened all those years ago telling us frankly about it grateful to you we will resume tomorrow at 10: when
04:46:31 you we will resume tomorrow at 10: when I think we hear from Mr Adams and later Mr John Burke moille so yes