Morning session of HN122 'Neil Richardson' testimony, covering his recruitment to the SDS in 1988-89, the informal vetting process, use of deceased child Neil Robin Martin's identity for cover, ethical issues around sexual relationships during deployment, participation in minor criminal activity (fly-posting), racist terminology in Special Branch, and infiltration of the Revolutionary Communist Party and Class War. Extensive questioning about the appropriateness of using dead children's identities and the impact on bereaved families.
00:30:56 e e
00:31:33 today is a day when um reporting restriction orders uh ought not to apply save in one respect which is unlikely to arise therefore um normal rules apply
00:31:45 arise therefore um normal rules apply those who have mobile electronic devices may use them to transmit silently to the outside world what you have seen and
00:31:56 outside world what you have seen and heard in the hearing but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event you're describing 10 minutes must elapse so that you don't preempt the video stream which is going to be uh subject
00:32:11 stream which is going to be uh subject to a 10minute delay you may not use any recording device for recording proceedings or for taking
00:32:15 photographs can now proceed thank you
00:32:28 sir I swear by I swear by God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the
00:32:43 truth yes hn22 good morning I ask questions on behalf of the inquiry this morning uh now you're the former special demonstration Squad undercover police officer known to this inquiry by the
00:32:58 officer known to this inquiry by the cipher hn22 is that right that's correct uh you'll be referred to as hn22 throughout uh questioning today is there's a restriction order in place that prohibits publication of your real name do you understand that yes I
00:33:10 name do you understand that yes I do you've prepared a witness statement for the purpose of this inquiry is that right that's correct I think it's 88 pages long is that correct I believe so
00:33:21 pages long is that correct I believe so uh and dated the 19th of May of 2021 is
00:33:35 uh and dated the 19th of May of 2021 is that right I believe so you've signed it I have are the contents of your witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes uh that puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence uh and if not already it should appear on the inquiry's website in due
00:33:47 inquiry's website in due course I just want to begin uh a little
00:33:58 course I just want to begin uh a little with your early career please hn22 and I think it's right that you joined uh the Metropolitan uh relase service in the early 1980s is that correct that's correct and by the time you transfer to special Branch you'd reach the rank of detective Constable is that right
00:34:11 detective Constable is that right yes you worked on a cquad desk that you describe in your witness statement as uh monitoring attempts by extreme leftwing groups to take over local community
00:34:23 groups to take over local community groups is that right that's right all right well that's a topic we'll we'll revisit it a little later but it's right that that desk eventually closed is that correct that's right uh and following
00:34:37 correct that's right uh and following the closure of that desk you transferred to uh esquad is that right
00:34:50 yes uh before you joined the special demonstration Squad the SDS uh were you aware of any separate special Branch undercover unit that was obtaining and providing intelligence back to special drch not specifically but I did come to
00:35:09 drch not specifically but I did come to learn of it yes can you remember how you came to learn of that unit I believe it was in conversation with the supervisors did you know before you were recruited into the uh special demonstration Squad that the unit was
00:35:24 demonstration Squad that the unit was known as the SDS or or any similar name I don't recall what I knew it has
00:35:31 how much did you know about the unit before your recruitment into it only that it existed but nothing about the details of what it
00:35:46 did were you aware before you were recruited into the SDS whether in your other roles you were receiving intelligence that had come from that unit I believe there was information I believe came from such a unit
00:36:04 believe came from such a unit yes did you find that uh information in your other roles of any value yes very much
00:36:13 so now being careful uh with names please um hm122 C can you remember how you came to be recruited by the SDS I was approached by one of the managers on the
00:36:26 managers on the unit are you able and and use the cipher list please it if you need to be careful about names please are you able to uh tell us who that manager
00:36:46 was uh the cipher is hn 109 all right well stick with the cipher please in the case of hn 109 very approximately can you remember when this occurred when the approach was made I believe it was sometime in 88
00:37:08 and was it something that you were interested in it's not something I'd considered pre previously
00:37:18 no following the approach was there anything that you did uh in order to deist assist your decision as to whether this was something You' might want to pursue or
00:37:34 pursue or not well I spoke to my colleagues uh who would know what the unit was about um and I spoke to my
00:37:40 family and did there come a time when you spoke
00:37:41 you spoke to uh senior colleagues about the the role I'm sorry do you mean in terms of an interview yes yes um again uh being
00:37:54 an interview yes yes um again uh being careful about names if you need to be um can you remember which um colleagues you spoke to you or interviewed
00:38:10 you that would have been uh DCR gray and was hm 109 involved as best of my recollection
00:38:21 yes uh was anybody other than the three of you involved in that interview I don't believe so
00:38:35 and please don't be specific but can you remember where that interview took place whether it was on Metropolitan Police premises or private premises or anywhere else uh that would have been on police
00:38:51 premises now in your witness statement you explain that you're also seen at home uh with your wife at some stage in addition to what you described as the more formal interview uh at the office do you
00:39:08 interview uh at the office do you remember saying that yes so does it follow that there was a an interview uh with hm 109 uh and um detective Chief Inspector Martin grave followed by a home visit is that the way it worked
00:39:29 yes just going to ask uh that a document be pulled up please um we which is um MPS 07
00:39:32 MPS 07 38101 which is b46 tab
00:39:52 b46 you
00:39:54 you um this is a manuscript note of an interview that was conducted with you not in relation to your SDS recruitment but with operation Hearn police officers so the police officers that were
00:40:09 so the police officers that were investigating um the SDS sometime later do you follow yes uh and if we look at the page that's up on the
00:40:20 up on the screen about five lines down what's been recorded there is initial initial approach informal interview uh DCI Martin GR did you see that yes thank you can you remember
00:40:41 you can you remember um what the character of your interview with Martin gray or and um hm 109 was like was it was it formal or as you described it in your wit statement or In fairness you more formal or was it an informal process it wasn't uh
00:40:53 informal process it wasn't uh particularly structured um it was more of a
00:40:57 of a conversation um as to how I felt about it and what would be involved is that the reason why you described it as an informal uh process when you were interest interviewed by Hearn officers in 2013
00:41:25 yes but presumably at that interview you were told that you were being considered as a perspective candidate for the SDS mhm I've been car ful about any operational sensitivities can you recollect the general themes that were discussed during that interview with hm 109 and DCI Martin
00:41:42 109 and DCI Martin gray no other than mention of the group that they intended I should go to just want to focus on that that initial interview or initial conversation and just asked you about some some topics and ask us to whether
00:41:53 some some topics and ask us to whether you have any recollection as to whether they were discussed with you or not all right did they uh discuss with you anything about potential training for the
00:42:01 the role not that I recall did they say anything uh about the length of the deployment or the likely length of the
00:42:13 deployment or the likely length of the deployment in general it's certainly not specific terms four to five
00:42:26 years yes or no answer to this question please did they say anything about the type or nature of the groups that you might might be tasked to
00:42:41 infiltrate very broadly yes did they say anything at that stage about the need to create a cover identity possibly I don't recall did they say anything at that stage
00:42:50 stage about cover living arrangements having to be
00:42:58 organized I don't recall was anything said at that stage about the impact that an infiltration you might engage in might have on the lives of members of the
00:43:15 public not that I recall anything said at that stage about the risk of relationships whilst deployed not at that stage yet was anything said at that stage about the impact the deployment might have on you and your
00:43:31 have on you and your family yes I believe that there was all right can you remember what you told about that at that initial interview only that uh the role would sometimes require very long hours and periods away from
00:43:46 and periods away from home was anything said at that initial interview about measures in place to ensure uh your welfare anything said about that no
00:43:59 now for for your reference if you need it I just want to ask you about something you said in your witness statement at page three which is at paragraph
00:44:09 paragraph 11 where you said that it was an honor to be thought capable of gathering intelligence because this was the Pinnacle of Metropolitan Police Special Branch work do you remember saying that in your witness statement
00:44:21 in your witness statement yes did the SDS consider itself to be an elite unit
00:44:29 not a phrase I would have used no what what phrase would you
00:44:39 use well it was the special Branch existed to gather intelligence and this unit was gathering the best possible intelligence and we certainly would have been aware of
00:44:50 that did you ever get the impression that uh the unit considered that the importance of its work meant that the rules of ordinary policing could be stretched if
00:45:05 stretched if required not in those terms no in what terms were you was your understanding it was inevitable that uh for things like fly posting which was a basic requirement of most political activists that is technically legal but
00:45:21 activists that is technically legal but it was regarded as a minor breach of the law that we would be permitted to do right we'll explore things that in a little more detail a little later all right um we know for example that a
00:45:33 right um we know for example that a number of SDS undercover o officers engage in sexual activity with others in the groups that they were infiltrating was there any sense that going as far of this was permissible if
00:45:50 going as far of this was permissible if it meant that the object of intelligence gathering was was met did you get any sense of anything like that no again that's a topic we'll explore in a little more detail a little later are you able to
00:46:05 later are you able to uh tell us what you meant when you made reference to intelligence gathering being the Pinnacle of special Branch work well as I said that that was the reason for special Branch to exist was gathering such
00:46:21 gathering such intelligence by various means U but the intelligence that SDS could gather uh was being done by police officers and therefore ultimately as reliable as it could possibly be I see so the
00:46:32 could possibly be I see so the reliability of the source do I understand you correctly yes all right now you also um say in your witness statement that you never aspire
00:46:45 witness statement that you never aspire to undercover work particularly because you weren't confident that it was something that you were able to do do you remember saying that yes what changed your mind I think in those initial
00:46:56 mind I think in those initial conversations I was reassured that if at any time I didn't feel confident I would be able to
00:47:09 withdraw were you still lacking in confidence about your ability to car carry out such work by the time that you transferred into the
00:47:21 unit I still had my doubts um but as I say I was reassured that uh it's something that I could walk away from if I needed to can you remember what those doubts or anxieties
00:47:33 doubts or anxieties were not specifically
00:47:41 no did anything occur or did you do anything that helped uh fortify you for the role in terms of your confidence no I simply undertook the
00:47:57 confidence no I simply undertook the initial work in the back office spoke to the other officers who were deployed and uh just carried on progressing through the stages and and gradually the confidence built can
00:48:08 and gradually the confidence built can you remember whether any effort was made by those involved in your recruitment to ascertain your suitability for an undercover uh
00:48:22 undercover uh deployment I don't know what they did so other than I assume they spoke to other officers who'd worked with me can you remember of any effort was made by uh them to ascertain your
00:48:34 resilience I wouldn't
00:48:40 know I think it's right that you were married at the time that you were approach to join the SDS is that correct that's right and you've already told us
00:48:54 that's right and you've already told us that following on from the interview or conversation that you had with hn 109 and Martin Gray um that uh the next thing that happened in terms of your recruitment was a home visit to you and your wife is that right I believe so
00:49:11 I believe so yes what was the purpose of the visit uh to your home can you remember my understanding was that they wanted to ensure that officers had a stable family background and that wives in
00:49:25 family background and that wives in particular were aware of what would be required
00:49:29 required right well we'll develop that a little more in a
00:49:31 more in a moment can you remember whether you you and your wife were spoken to separately or or together or a combination of the two as far as I recall it was
00:49:56 together did you understand that uh your relationship was of interest to those who involved in your recruitment in terms of it stability yes I
00:50:11 see was that an an impression that you formed or was that something that was said to you in terms that what your superiors were interested in was um assessing the stability of your
00:50:24 assessing the stability of your marriage I think it may well have been something that they mentioned as a reason for the visit
00:50:31 now you've told us a little moment ago and I think you say in your witness statement as well was that the reason for the V visit was to assess your stability as a couple and how that would withstand the
00:50:45 withstand the strain uh of a uh deployment is that right
00:50:54 yes can you remember how the stability of your relationship was was
00:51:02 tested don't believe it was tested all right can you remember the sorts of questions that were asked of you and your
00:51:14 your wife very general in terms of how long we'd been together and so on so length of relationship I really can't recall specific questions I'm afraid all right what about the strains was
00:51:27 right what about the strains was anything said about what the likely strains might be in terms of long hours periods away from home so long hours uh and long periods away from
00:51:41 home uh you said in your witness statement that you understood that D DN 109 wanted to ensure that your wife was aware and that any miscommunication
00:51:55 aware and that any miscommunication between you and your wife was avoided do you remember saying that not hand no all right um I think it's at um page uh four uh
00:52:06 four uh paragraph
00:52:16 13 you start at the um towards the bottom of page four says Apparently one wife found out her husband's rep only found out of her husband's retirement due uh that he was a superintendent he
00:52:27 due uh that he was a superintendent he told her he'd worked for sh whilst it a CH Changed by the time that you joined and we were encouraged to be more open with our partners I understood that D dihn 109 wanted to ensure that my wife was aware and that any miscommunication
00:52:39 was aware and that any miscommunication was was avoided did you see that yes all
00:52:55 right um what do you think hn 109 wanted to make your wife aware of uh simply the nature of the work that I was going to be
00:53:04 undertaking and by Nature what do you
00:53:16 mean the hours and periods away from home what did you understand was meant by the term miscommunication
00:53:36 I'm not sure I I don't recall using the word miscommunication in in reference to that superintendent that wasn't specifically SDs that was a special Branch
00:53:46 officer you no no recollection of that particular term I'm afraid not was anything said at this meeting about the risk of developing a sexual relationship whilst deployed
00:54:13 no was anything said to you about the significance of a family life for an SDS undercover officer only in terms that the deployment would be or could be very stressful and it was important to have a stable family life to support that
00:54:27 stable family life to support that so the do I understand you correctly that it was considered that having a family life gave you a bit of a support network that would help you cope with
00:54:39 network that would help you cope with the demands of the deployment that was my understanding
00:54:47 yeah can we look please at um a document uh MPS
00:54:52 uh MPS 05274 67 which is a tab B3 of the hard copy bundle
00:55:07 and this is a document uh special Branch memo just wait for it to catch up on the
00:55:25 screen page two of this document please a special Branch uh memo data the 24th of January 1989 where uh uh details in relation to your family and your wife's family are rehearsed and at paragraph three it's recorded that you
00:55:37 recorded that you provided such details C can you remember uh whether um it was at that home
00:55:51 home interview uh that you provided details in relation to your family knif or on another occasion or or was it on mult multiple
00:56:00 multiple occasions I assume it would be between the interview and the home
00:56:11 visit and um are you aware as to whether special Branch undertook any inquiries of their own into your family I no
00:56:20 idea um at paragraph three of that document there's um a comment uh that none of your family had previously come to the notice of special branch do you see that
00:56:42 yes does it follow from that that there may have been some sort of independent inquiry into your family before uh your recruitment into the SDS I can only speculate but I would
00:56:55 SDS I can only speculate but I would assume that they checked special Branch records to see if there was any member of my family who was politically active I
00:57:05 see now uh you made reference in your witness statement to having been through a positive vetting process in advance of your
00:57:16 your recruitment um obviously takeing care to avoid any operational sensitivities or anything like that are you able to tell us what a positive vetting process involved it was an enhanced vetting procedure for officers handling secret
00:57:29 procedure for officers handling secret material standard for all sp sp officers
00:57:38 see so that's something a procedure you'd have been through regardless of whether you going into the SDS or not yes I
00:57:43 yes I see do you know if there was any consideration given uh by your superiors of your own political views before um you um transfer to the
00:57:54 you um transfer to the SDS not that I'm aware
00:58:12 of you described the um interview with hm 109 and um DCI Martin gray as a as a conversation or or informal interview was there ever a point where
00:58:26 interview was there ever a point where you had a more formal style of interview or more formal assessment in advance of being offered your position in the SDS no I don't think
00:58:37 so were you ever given any feedback of uh as to why uh you were successful in your application to join the SDS not that I recall now will you ever given any feedback as to what qualities it was considered you had that made you appropriate for the role
00:58:50 role no I just want to look at a document with you this isn't in the hard copy bundle but it's MPA S 07
00:59:03 28960 uh which is uh so that's in your loose leaf bundle uh which is a copy of um the SS annual report for
00:59:19 1989 um dated around May uh 1989 so this is the annual report hm122 for the period just before your your deployment commenced all right
00:59:31 your deployment commenced all right and just want to look at uh paragraphs uh forgive me Pages 8 and nine on the documents it should start with paragraph six thank
00:59:39 six thank you and this says the following throughout the past 20 years there's been a continual review of the functions and operations of SDS during the past year Commander operations directed the
00:59:52 year Commander operations directed the detective Chief Inspector to conduct a further review of SDS with particular reference to uh recruitment operational deployment and supervisory aspects the selection procedure for field officers has has
01:00:07 has has not uh previously presented any problems in finding uh suitable special Branch officers to fill the vacancies when they occur however the stressful and difficult nature of STS fieldwork made
01:00:19 difficult nature of STS fieldwork made it necessary for the selection criteria to be reexamined to ensure that potential recruits are equipped psychologically and emotionally to cope with the pressure of pressures of this posting each STS candidate is told that he will be retained on field Duty
01:00:35 he will be retained on field Duty subject to the following conditions he is physically and mentally capable of Performing the assigned Duty he is working to the high standard required of SDS officers and at the political area in which he has deployed warrants continued
01:00:54 coverage did you consider your experience of being recruited into the SCS as being part of a elction
01:01:01 procedure yes do you feel that the way in which you were recruited sufficiently tested whether you were to borrow the terms in the report
01:01:13 the report psychologically and emotionally suited to an undercover deployment I assume so you say you assume so do you feel
01:01:27 so you say you assume so do you feel that your superiors did enough to test that you were sufficiently robust to undertake a deployment well I'm afraid I really don't know how they structured the interview what they were specifically
01:01:38 interview what they were specifically asking or so from my point of view it seemed quite informal were the three conditions that are mentioned in that document so physical and mental capability high
01:01:50 physical and mental capability high standards and the availability of a political area wanting warranting coverage were they ever explained to you during your recruitment I think in general terms yes as the
01:02:03 I think in general terms yes as the conditions of the employment in specific terms obviously I can't recall now when it came to areas warranting coverage once you
01:02:16 coverage once you deployed did you keep under review whether the groups that you had infiltrated merited continued infiltration was that something you kept an eye on that wasn't my role
01:02:32 why did you not consider it uh your responsibility to keep under review the justification of any um deployment that you are
01:02:43 of any um deployment that you are engaged in I was satisfied from the information I had that the groups would fulfill a requirement of special Branch but I didn't have any other wider information to make that
01:02:54 other wider information to make that sort of strategic assessment right well we'll look at what was being said about some of the groups a little later on right now once you joined the SDS did
01:03:07 right now once you joined the SDS did you have any formal training that was specific to the role or specific to undercover work there were no training courses but there was quite intensive
01:03:18 courses but there was quite intensive discussion during the time that I was in the back office and before deployed so
01:03:34 the back office and before deployed so is that uh discussion with uh undercover officers who were already in the field yes and and managers and managers all right we'll get to that this those discussions in due
01:03:46 discussions in due course in preparing um to deploy did you ever associate with any leftwing groups or activists or Anarchist groups in advance of deploying on initial deployment into the field then yes I believe I went to one or two
01:03:56 or two leftwing
01:03:58 leftwing meetings before you went into the field was there any sort of Engagement of that nature no I don't believe
01:04:11 so now you say in your witness statement this is at um paragraph 17 on page six uh you say that your preparation uh
01:04:24 six uh you say that your preparation uh could involve drawing on experiences of undercover officers that that were already deployed and that's something I think you've just mentioned in your
01:04:34 evidence uh C can you recollect being careful about names can you recollect any specific colleague whose experiences you drew on in preparation to
01:04:49 deploy and write write it down if you need to hn
01:05:02 122 I would say I probably spoke to all the officers who were deployed at one time or another both in groups and potentially
01:05:08 individually and we'll come on to this topic in a little more detail um later but were you aware whether any of them had engaged in relationships in the course of their deployment no not at
01:05:25 all was there any sort of written resource available that undercover officers could
01:05:27 consult
01:05:37 no have you heard the expression tradecraft manual which has been used to describe documentary material uh that was compiled and retained by the SDS intended to provide guidance to undercover officers have you heard that expression I've been shown
01:05:49 heard that expression I've been shown documents referencing it yes were you aware of any such manual no it didn't EX exist whil I was there were you aware of
01:06:02 exist whil I was there were you aware of any sort of collection of documents that could be used as a as a resource to assist you in terms of guidance once you in the field
01:06:20 no you say in your witness statement that the expression tradecraft was not generally used is that right that's right there is evidence hm122 available
01:06:31 right there is evidence hm122 available to the inquiry that a trade clar manual was put together and made available to undercover officers are you sure that at the very least certain tactics were not referred to as uh trycraft you sure about that I
01:06:43 to as uh trycraft you sure about that I didn't recall it until I was asked about
01:06:57 it can I take you next to uh MPS 07305 A9 which is a tab b33 in the hard copy
01:06:58 copy bundle so
01:06:59 bundle so 07305
01:07:08 89 and just to assist you um hm122 this is a code of conduct for undercover officers that uh came about around June 1993 uh and you address this at page
01:07:24 1993 uh and you address this at page seven of your statement at paragraph 22 um was that code of conduct document something that you were aware of whilst you were deployed
01:07:35 deployed no did you become aware of it at some
01:07:50 stage i' not it may have been one of the documents I've been shown but not time I think you say in your witness statement you that you only became aware of it after your deployment had finished right yes does it follow from that that you became aware of it uh sometime after the conclusion of your deployment in in
01:08:03 deployment in in 1993 yes but I have no idea
01:08:11 when so does it follow that you weren't aware of this code Code of Conduct whilst you were in the field that's
01:08:23 correct had you had a in preparation uh of your evidence have you had an opportunity to have a look at this document not in detail no not in detail all
01:08:35 right let me see if I can assist you because at par um paragraph 88 of your witness statement so page seven of your witness statement paragraph 88 you say that your recollection was that this
01:08:55 that your recollection was that this document was developed at least in part because of the deployment of non SDS undercover officers in the field of football related violence do you remember remember making that observation in your witness statement I don't recall saying that I think there must have been some sort of context to that conversation at the
01:09:21 time if I was to ask you then whether this document was or wasn't SDS specific could you help me with that from what you're saying it doesn't sound like it was an SDS document I'm drawing that from from your your
01:09:34 drawing that from from your your evidence and your witness statement I don't recall at what time or in what context we had that
01:09:44 conversation yes paragraph I think it should have been paragraph 22 forgive
01:09:51 me thanks page seven paragraph 22
01:10:00 again if I was to ask you then what it was about football violence uh that gave rise to the creation of this code would you be able to
01:10:15 assist I'm aware that there was an officer in special Branch who had been involved in such operations
01:10:24 previously were you provided any guidance with how far you could involve yourself in the private lives of others in advance of your deployment not in such terms no what do you mean not in such sense but there's
01:10:39 you mean not in such sense but there's no specific conversation saying this is how far you can involve yourself in their private lives were you given any guidance or advice regarding where to draw the line in relation to
01:10:51 draw the line in relation to relationships that you developed with members of your target groups no specific instruction no how far did you consider it was permissible to involve yourself with members of your target
01:11:09 members of your target groups it was a necessary part of the job to become on friendly terms with these people but uh there was no instruction or intention to form any sort of intimate relationship did you consider that it
01:11:24 relationship did you consider that it was permissible to enter people's homes for example that would be a part of it meeting their families if invited to do so uh
01:11:36 families if invited to do so uh attending social events outside of the group's
01:11:37 group's activities potentially and I think you tell us in your witness statement that uh by the time you were deployed into an anarchist group known as class
01:11:49 group known as class War uh you would visit somebody called Tim Scargo uh who was a prominent member
01:12:02 Tim Scargo uh who was a prominent member of class war and another member at their home and you might stay over sometimes is that right do you remember saying that
01:12:17 yes how did you come to to judge what was and what wasn't appropriate um conduct in relation to
01:12:28 others it seemed to me at the time that that was a perfectly normal thing for me to do as an associate of their you say in your witness statement that you didn't share the political views of those in your your target groups do you remember saying that yes
01:12:46 groups do you remember saying that yes did did your political differences ever influence what you did within those groups no did your political differences uh influence the nature of your reporting
01:12:59 your reporting no I don't think so did you take any steps to ensure that your differences um with those or against those that you were reporting on didn't influence what you were doing did you
01:13:10 influence what you were doing did you take any steps to make sure that your differences didn't impact you in any way as a special Branch officer my role was to report impartially and fairly on
01:13:27 to report impartially and fairly on whatever area of XB work I was involved with with there's nothing particular about reporting on these individuals think you told us there would have been occasions where you would socialize within your target groups is that right to% yes
01:13:44 groups is that right to% yes yes can you remember what sort of social activity you might involve yourself
01:13:54 in um with some of them it would might be going to the pub to theb with others it might involve going to their house and does it follow that you may have been around um alcohol
01:14:05 have been around um alcohol consumption at times yes would would you have drunk whilst um socializing with um those in your groups to an extent were you ever concerned about
01:14:20 concerned about the effect of alcohol and the maybe your inhibitions being reduced and any risk that might flow from that absolutely what measures did you take in relation to that simply to limit the amount of alcohol were you ever around drug use
01:14:39 no can we look at um one of your an intelligence report that's attributed to you please hm122 this is ucpi 399 which is at tab 61 of the hard copy bundle ucpi 3099
01:15:11 now this is an intelligent report dated the 1st of July 1991 and it relates to an individual supporter of the Revolution revolutionary Communist party which is the group you initially deployed into is that right that's right uh uh and we can
01:15:27 that right that's right uh uh and we can see Center although it's under a privacy redaction we can see that the uh document names this individual's
01:15:38 document names this individual's fiance and the main body of the document says this privacy as a fully committed supporter of the RCP uh he was once a full full member but for an unknown reason reverted to being a supporter in
01:15:50 being a supporter in 1986 he's highly regarded in the part in party circles mostly because of the length of time that he's been around since
01:15:56 since 1982 he's recently become engaged to uh an and then there's a privacy redaction and plans to marry in
01:16:08 1991 I think it's right you tell us in your witness statement that you were invited to this individual's wedding is that correct that's correct did you attend yes why did you attend she had requested that I attend
01:16:22 attend she had requested that I attend uh I was under the impression that she was quite intimidated by the other members of the RCP who would be the only other persons present and she wanted me to be there as reassurance and she
01:16:33 to be there as reassurance and she regarded me as not as fanatical as the others but by she are you referring to the the fiance yes did you consider that there may be intelligence opportunities at this
01:16:53 event I don't believe there were any specific uh intelligence opportunities I knew all the people were going anyway was there any reason why you couldn't just make your excuses and and avoid attending this
01:17:06 attending this event I could have thought of an excuse but it would have looked odd um and I decided not to why did you say it would have looked
01:17:20 have looked odd because of my relationship with him then for me to refuse to go would have been a snub to that friendship just want to explore that I mean wouldn't necessarily have required a refusal to go you could have said you had another important commitment or
01:17:34 had another important commitment or something like that did that that ever cross your mind yes I can at every incident or occasion like this then I would always consider the opportunities or the
01:17:49 consider the opportunities or the disadvantages of each course of action see the reason I'm asking you in particular about this is because a marriage or a union that's a pretty personal occasion in somebody's life isn't it yes uh did you not think
01:18:04 life isn't it yes uh did you not think that it was overly intrusive to attend this particular event not at the time
01:18:17 no and why did you say that well that was the obvious obviously the conclusion I came to but the full reasoning I couldn't possibly Recall now looking back do you think it may have been more appropriate to have tried to
01:18:32 been more appropriate to have tried to make up a sympathetic excuse and avoided this event
01:18:41 possibly did you receive any training or guidance as to the appropriateness of sexual relationships with um individuals whilst
01:18:48 whilst undercover there was no formal training or guidance on it that I was aware of um it was a subject of discussion with another
01:19:05 discussion with another officer um and quite apart from the fact that it would be morally wrong uh but that was in context of as with anybody who's working away from home for long periods
01:19:19 working away from home for long periods of time there is the opportunity to have such relationships it was not in connection with the thought that this was a legitimate means of infiltration to a
01:19:32 to a group did your managers ever discuss with you the potential for a sexual encounter or relationship I don't recall that you
01:19:43 relationship I don't recall that you don't recall so uh does it follow from that you don't recall any managerial guidance as to how to handle such a situation if it came up uh there was discussion whether was
01:19:55 up uh there was discussion whether was with management I can't recall U but the difficulty of handling such an approach if it was made by somebody else
01:20:05 yes can you remember then what was discussed about these sorts of difficulties no it was uh various people would have various options um whether it was to say I'm not attracted to you or
01:20:23 was to say I'm not attracted to you or I'm already engaged or or whatever there were possibilities but they would be if it happened you would have to tailor your response to what was appropriate to your circumstances there did anyone ever raise the possibility that one of the options might have been to engage with
01:20:36 options might have been to engage with any individual making an advance or an approach
01:20:48 no now you said in your witness statement uh that it would be completely naive to think that undercover officers during your time never realized that it might be possible to have sexual relationships in their under to cover identities I think that's a paragraph 25 page
01:21:07 8 what led you to come to that conclusion sorry the conclusion of that would be completely naive to think that undercover officers during your time never realize that it might be possible to have sexual relationships in their
01:21:22 to have sexual relationships in their undercover identities as it as I say as in any line of work whether it was a traveling salesman or uh what are people who are away from home for long periods might find
01:21:33 home for long periods might find themselves engaging in such Behavior so it'd be n naive to think that it wouldn't cross the mind if that officer was so
01:21:45 was so inclined are you saying and don't let me put words into your mouth this may be a rather crude way of expressing it but are you saying that it was an obvious risk in your line of work yes yes
01:22:01 and given that that possibility was obvious to you uh and obvious obviously to your colleagues because you've told us there's some discussion about it does it follow that it must have been obvious to your your managers as well I assume
01:22:23 so during your time on the SS had you ever heard about any of your colleagues engaging in sexual ual conduct with others whilst deployed this is whilst you're on the SS
01:22:38 no something else you said in your witness statement uh was that you believe that there was a deliberate policy this is uh paragraph 26 so Pages 8 over the page to page nine you believe that there was a deliberate policy of
01:22:54 that there was a deliberate policy of selecting undercover officers who were in stable relationships because the management perceived that there was a far lower risk of officers succumbing to temptation as well as from a more General Ware perspective yes what made you believe
01:23:06 perspective yes what made you believe that there was a deliberate policy in
01:23:13 place I don't think there was a specific thing that made me think that that was my impression that was your impression what gave you that impression I couldn't say
01:23:36 does it follow from what you said in your witness statement that in your view that policy as you termed it had two purposes so reducing the risk of Temptation and facilitating General Welfare were were were those are purposes of of selecting officers who
01:23:47 purposes of of selecting officers who are in stable relationships as far as you're
01:23:48 you're concerned that's how it appeared to me and forgive me if I'm asking the obvious but what was was the Temptation that you were speaking
01:24:01 that you were speaking about well as I've said where people are working away from home and family for extended
01:24:06 extended period and what did you understand the role of an SDS undercover officer partner to be in terms of the officer's
01:24:13 welfare support but it's U times of
01:24:22 stress did you consider that an Undercovers officer's welfare was also Al the responsibility of the SDS of the unit yes did you consider that it was also the responsibility of of of your managers
01:24:39 yeah we'll come on to the subject of welfare and due
01:24:50 call but given the implementation of this policy and given the obvious risk um that you've described does it not follow that the managers uh responsible in your time must have at
01:25:02 responsible in your time must have at least been aware of a risk of uh sexual relationships occurring whilst officers were deployed I seem so was it ever conveyed to you by
01:25:19 so was it ever conveyed to you by managers that they had an awareness that sexual relationships had been a problem within the unit no did you you ever gain any understanding whilst you in the unit
01:25:33 no was it ever uh explain to you in terms that married officers were preferred because of a risk of sexual activity or an
01:25:44 of a risk of sexual activity or an awareness of sexual activity amongst others whilst deployed no did you engage uh in uh sexual or
01:25:55 no did you engage uh in uh sexual or intimate activity with any anybody else whilst deployed no do you consider that there was any there was any conceivable justification for entering into a sexual relationship whilst
01:26:06 whilst deployed none that I'm aware of no what would be what would be the problem with entering into such a
01:26:20 relationship primarily from my point of view the problem would be the increase in stress uh having to have yet more cover stories and the risk of exposure what about the fact that the other person in that relationship the other
01:26:35 person in that relationship the other half of it would have been deceived was that something that you ever applied your mind to Yes it morally
01:26:50 wrong being careful as to um names please um at the time of your deployment so far as you aware what was the attitude of your undercover colle colleagues to the possibility of engaging in a sexual encounter or relationship what impression did you get as to their
01:27:09 impression did you get as to their attitudes I didn't uh I don't recall any conversation about engaging in such activity at all no but the possibility of it were their attitudes to the possibility of that occurring I don't recall any comment about possibilities does the
01:27:22 comment about possibilities does the same apply to your managers have asked to ask you about them again I don't recall any such conversation but the topic was spoken about I think you told us is that right I spoke uh with one other officer
01:27:42 right I spoke uh with one other officer about it well let's just have a look at at that and this is um MPS 07 38101 so it's a document we've already seen uh which is the um note of of the
01:27:53 seen uh which is the um note of of the interview uh with operation hear police officers
01:27:58 uh that you had uh on the 8th of November 2013 all
01:28:08 right if we look at the bottom of page two what's what's recorded there and going across to page three not aware so this is a record of something you said to to Hearn officers all right not aware of any sexual relationships
01:28:30 not aware of any sexual relationships opportunity discuss with another UCO uh no talks from smt I presume that means senior management team in respect of sexual relationship do you see that
01:28:38 yes now um being careful uh not to mention the name or gender or field of deployment of the officer that you spoke to um can you recollect what the nature
01:28:54 to um can you recollect what the nature of the conversation uh was the nature of the discussion you had with that officer very much as I've uh said before in terms of there was an obvious
01:29:06 in terms of there was an obvious opportunity for people if so inclined to indulge in such things but not only do we both find it morally wrong um but it would be impossible to maintain in that particular
01:29:22 field C can you write down for us please the um Cipher of the officer that you had that conversation please and once that's done if perhaps be shown to the
01:29:55 chairman thank you I won't take that any further will retain this note for the record certainly I think that is something will have to remain um closed
01:30:13 yes was there any gossip uh whilst you're on the STS about past or current other cover officers perhaps being involved in sexual activity whilst deployed
01:30:27 no uh your service an SDS undercover officer followed on from that of of Bob Lambert and overlapped with h87 who
01:30:39 Lambert and overlapped with h87 who cover name was John Li lipskin hn1 cover name Matt rer John dyes Andrew Kohl's Trevor
01:30:40 Trevor Morris and Peter Francis and all of those officers have accepted say for Andrew koh's all of those officers have
01:30:51 koh's all of those officers have accepted being engaged in sexual relationships or having had sexual encounters whilst
01:30:59 deployed says in
01:31:06 statement No I said I said relationship or
01:31:17 encounter whilst on the SDS were you aware of any of your contemporaries having been involved in sexual relationships or Encounters in their cover identities whilst deploy
01:31:32 no this isn't just one or or two individuals this is this is a a handful of individuals hm122 are you sure that this sort of activity wasn't known about it within the unit certainly not by
01:31:48 me can we stick to the document that we have on screen please and look at page three
01:31:56 uh and at the top of Page
01:32:07 Three uh we can see uh that it says this no talks from uh
01:32:08 uh smt in respect of sexual relationships uh new JD uh JD uh being
01:32:23 relationships uh new JD uh JD uh being the initials of John Dy new JD close to HS HS being an abbreviation well sorry initials of Helen steel made no secret of it bravado not to indicate he was having a relationship that he was close to the leadership and
01:32:39 that he was close to the leadership and that's where he had to be he did Target to get the information sexually don't know doubt it do you see that hm1
01:32:54 yes what did you mean uh when you said in 2013 bravado not to indicate he was having a
01:32:55 having a relationship I think there was uh boy some boy comments made simply because it was such a small group that he was
01:33:08 was such a small group that he was infiltrating B comment made by him or somebody else uh could be either can you remember the nature of the comment no but it was within character for for him to make such a
01:33:24 character for for him to make such a comment um but at the time didn't take it to mean that he was having a relationship can you remember the the gist or can you recollect any idea of the sense of the comment no I'm afraid
01:33:40 not could it have alluded to the possibility of him being involved in sexual activity with John dyan's being
01:33:52 sexual activity with John dyan's being involved in sexual activity with Helen steel I suppose well I don't remember the comment so I can't really answer that
01:34:00 are you sure you don't remember agan one
01:34:07 two2 I don't recall anything beyond what is said there that seems a fair representation of what I could remember at the
01:34:12 at the time was John dyes close to the SS
01:34:18 leadership not especially that I know of
01:34:29 why is it recorded in this document uh that he was close to the leadership and that's where he had to be that's the leadership of the group that he was I see all right so leadership of the group as opposed to the management in the SDS yes I
01:34:49 understand what did you mean by um uh what did you mean when you said he did Target to get the information
01:34:59 uh in order to get the information he was tasked to gather then he had to be uh close to a very small group of people of the leadership of that
01:35:13 group in your witness statement you say the first you knew about John dyan's relationship with Helen steel was when you were visited by someone from the office shortly before the story broke in the Press
01:35:28 the Press because of the techniques that we used in tracking John Di's down do you remember saying that
01:35:37 yes G given that you knew that uh John D and Helen steel were close and um you'd heard this boardy comment as you you term it you sure that you this was the first that you'd heard or
01:35:52 this was the first that you'd heard or got the impression at least that there had been some sort of relationship between the pair
01:36:05 yes being careful about names please can you remember who visited you at home about this no uh can you remember when it when it
01:36:17 no uh can you remember when it when it took place I know you say shortly before uh the story break in the Press are you able to date that at all no I'm afraid not were you told anything about the relationship between John Dian and Helen steel at that stage only that one had
01:36:32 existed and why did what had happened to John dyes lead to a visit to to you what was the reason for the somebody coming to see you about this well apart from generally to keep me informed of U
01:36:51 from generally to keep me informed of U press interest but specifically I think it was to do with the use of uh cover identities
01:36:57 I suppose I ought to make it clear I assume this was somebody from the police who came to visit you yes all
01:37:05 right um Bob Lambert was someone you say in your witness statement you only really knew of through other people's comments do you remember saying that yes can you remember anything about the sort of comments you heard about Bob Lambert Only in terms of his uh
01:37:20 Lambert Only in terms of his uh deployment and that he was highly thought of um can we uh stick to the document please that we just had on the
01:37:31 please that we just had on the screen and if we look at page five of that document
01:37:45 please towards the top of page five it says BL so Bob Lambert's initials quite unique demanded commendations you owe us something for this did you see that record
01:37:55 record there yes what did you mean by
01:38:03 this I don't know I don't recall that
01:38:11 conversation how did you come to learn that Lambert had demanded commendations as as recorded in this document I don't believe he
01:38:23 believe he did has has the author of this document got got it wrong then I think he must have
01:38:31 done did you know that um Bob Lambert had received a commendation for his service uh in the SS yes did you have an understanding of the
01:38:44 yes did you have an understanding of the circumstances in which you received that Commendation for the reasons for it in very general terms did you know when that occurred no
01:38:57 one other officer I want to ask you about is uh um hn1 who was before your time real name is Mike chitty cover name Mike Blake who was deployed between 1983 and 1987 in the animal rights
01:39:13 and 1987 in the animal rights field uh now you mention in your witness statement uh that at a social event sometime after you left the SDS you're aware of allegations about uh Mike chitty uh continuing to live in his cover
01:39:25 uh continuing to live in his cover identity do you remember that do you remember saying that can you remember how you were made aware of
01:39:42 this not specifically I think I asked someone who I thought might know what it was and they gave me some outline as to what had
01:39:44 what had happened does it follow that you must have heard something because you asked somebody else to to tell you what it was all about
01:39:55 all about I was aware that people had mentioned the name Mike chitty but I didn't know why or under what circumstances other than it was something awkward or bad but I'd never inquired previously because I
01:40:14 I'd never inquired previously because I didn't know the man or expect to me him were you made aware of any allegation that he engaged in sexual activity whilst deployed
01:40:28 no how do you feel about the fact that amongst those that you served with were undercover officers who had sexual encounters or entered into sexual relationships with members of the public whilst
01:40:34 whilst deployed I was shocked simply because I had no idea that they were doing so how do you feel uh about the fact that this sort of
01:40:49 feel uh about the fact that this sort of conduct took place uh under the aices of the special demonstration Court well clearly it shouldn't
01:41:02 have now you told us a little earlier about um Bill posting being an activity that um undercover officers may have to engage in whilst deployed is that right
01:41:16 engage in whilst deployed is that right yes did you ever engage or uh encourage any c criminal activity whilst you deployed in terms of Bill posting yes I took part in that took part in it uh did you ever encourage anybody else to take part in Bill post
01:41:28 part in Bill post here uh no that wouldn't have Arisen you said in your witness statement that low-level activity might be justify but nothing more serious
01:41:51 be justify but nothing more serious like assault and things like that do you remember saying that yes where did you get this understanding in other words the distinction between low-level activity being uh perhaps tolerable but more serious crime not I'm pretty sure
01:42:03 more serious crime not I'm pretty sure that would have been conversations with u
01:42:14 managers did you engage in anything other than Bill poting no can you remember how regularly you involved in activity Bill posting activity
01:42:28 I couldn't put a figure on it Beyond perhaps once a month for a short period and did this apply to both groups that you
01:42:39 that you infiltrated no I don't believe it applied to class war so just the Revolutionary Communist party yes and you think about once a month possibly all right
01:42:56 just want to explore with you something you said in your witness statement which is at paragraph 30 starts at page n goes across to page
01:43:07 across to page 10 and what you said was that as far as encouraging others to commit offenses paraphrasing here it was only justifiable for offenses of the most minor
01:43:15 minor character and only when there is no other realistic method of maintaining cover do you remember saying that
01:43:29 to an extent yes does it follow that it was your understanding that there were occasions where it may be appropriate or permissible to encourage others to engage in criminal
01:43:54 conduct in terms of the bill posting um when I say encourage I was not in a position to organize and encourage people in that sense but if I was asked to come build posting and to ask somebody else to come as well then I would do
01:44:16 that was your understanding that this was only
01:44:18 was only permissible uh in respect of Bill posting or was there any other sort of minor offend that uh it might be appropriate to
01:44:29 that uh it might be appropriate to involve yourself in encouragement or anything like that well I recall it specifically in this because it was an
01:44:40 specifically in this because it was an inevitable activity that I would have to engage in um but it was explained to me that a minor infringement uh might be justified but a serious offense would
01:44:53 justified but a serious offense would not are you aware as to whether any of your colleagues encourage others to commit criminal offenses
01:45:03 offenses no and forgive me if I didn't understand you correctly but was it your evidence that any
01:45:06 that any encouragement uh you may have uh been involved in was uh restricted to Bill posting uh and restricted to perhaps
01:45:20 posting uh and restricted to perhaps asking others to come along something like that yes
01:45:30 and what was the re what how would it be justifiable what was the reason for en encouraging somebody else to engage in something like Bill posting why would you feel you'd have to do
01:45:41 do that if I was asked to come out of an
01:45:53 that if I was asked to come out of an evening a bill posting yes and asked to ask somebody else to come which you might would then say was I was encouraging them if I was to refuse it would immediately prompt the
01:46:04 refuse it would immediately prompt the question why see you not able to to to say who to whoever's asking you to do the asking well that's that's a matter for them or you know if you want them to come along you could up to you you could did you apply your mind to doing that yes you
01:46:15 yes you could looking back do you think that might might have been a more appropriate course to take as opposed to inviting somebody else to to come along and
01:46:30 somebody else to to come along and commit a a criminal offense or be at low level no why do you not think it would have been more appropriate to try and avoid having to ask somebody else to get involved it's a balance between what I'm asking them to
01:46:44 asking them to do and maintaining the cover that I have and not jeopardizing
01:46:54 it you'd still be involved in the activity yourself wouldn't you regard of what the whether the other individual agreed or not is that is that
01:47:01 fair I you you taken the decision that you would you would Bill post yes wasn't that enough to maintain your cover to to show your credentials to it would entirely depend upon the circumstances
01:47:14 entirely depend upon the circumstances at the time the way it was asked how it was asked uh what my standing was at that time I can't give a generic answer to
01:47:27 to that were you ever arrest Ed um whilst deployed into an underc into a group will you ever the subject of any criminal proceedings uh in court in relation to activity that you were involved in whilst deployed
01:47:40 involved in whilst deployed no can we look again at the um document 07 38101 please MPS 07 38101 so back to the uh manuscript notes please uh and this time this is at b46
01:47:55 please uh and this time this is at b46 of the hard copy bundle this time please um page
01:48:08 four and just below center of the page we can see sentence that says fly posting would go through process use cover name and pay fine and and be
01:48:19 cover name and pay fine and and be reimbursed do you see that yes can can you remember what you meant by that
01:48:31 simply as part of the discussions with managers before I was deployed that uh minor offenses like fly posting our instruction was to maintain our cover go through the a ticket or bail or whatever it was
01:48:44 whatever it was um and that if we were fined for the fly posting that would be
01:48:51 reimbursed can you remember if anything was said to you by your manager about whether it was permissible to other than what you've just told us whether it was permissible to engage in or encourage criminal conduct whilst
01:49:07 criminal conduct whilst deployed can you remember anything else was said to you by your managers not off hand can you remember if anything was said to you what you're supposed to do if you're
01:49:22 arrested uh that if it was a minor matter such as this which wouldn't be a prolonged detention so uh you should inform the office as soon as you were released on bail or without
01:49:35 released on bail or without charge but if you were in custody for a length of time you should try and contact the office did you ever apply your mind to the legality of being processed in your cover name because of course it wasn't your real name no I
01:49:48 course it wasn't your real name no I didn't is there any reason you didn't think about that
01:49:59 sorry a reason I didn't you didn't think about whether it was proper or not if you uh were uh arrested by the authorities to give a a a cover name instead of your real
01:50:10 instead of your real name it was simply uh uh I didn't consider the legal implications of it it was simply an essential way of you
01:50:23 was simply an essential way of you either give up your real name there and then and that's the end of your operations or you maintain it through the process and did you appreciate that if if if you chose to maintain the cover name that would be
01:50:38 name that would be misleading I didn't have any great indepth thoughts on the that was anything said to you by colleagues or managers about appearing in cour in your cover identity no
01:50:55 did you consider uh if the situation were to arise did you ever apply your mind to the propriety of attending Court in your
01:51:10 the propriety of attending Court in your cover name in other words again the fact that the court would be misled did you ever think about that the situation never arose I didn't consider it but it it must have been obvious to you that there was a risk that the situation might come up if that was a
01:51:22 situation might come up if that was a risk then no we would have discussed it with them
01:51:30 with them management did you have any concerns about what to do in the event of um Court proceedings being commenced against you it wasn't something I considered
01:51:43 no did you know whether um fines were paid by the um undercover officer and then reimbursed by the SDS office I'm not aware of a particular example now so that's advis as opposed
01:51:57 that's advis as opposed to something you had experienced of yes all
01:52:05 right and you've told us about what you say was the importance of maintaining covering these sorts of scenarios and the importance of maintaining a um of using the cover name to maintain
01:52:21 name to maintain cover uh you're aware and we'll get onto the subject in in course it was common practice at your time in the SS to use a deceased child's identity as a as a cover name is that right yes did you
01:52:33 cover name is that right yes did you ever ever apply your mind to the fact that if somebody was arrested processed proceeded against in court that there was a risk that they certainly police records would be created in the uh real child's identity
01:52:53 created in the uh real child's identity and the child's real identity forgive me and possibly a criminal record created in that identity did did you did that ever cross your mind
01:53:07 yes and why did you think that um it would be appropriate to proceed in the way that you had be you had uh been told that you should when there was this risk that uh somebody holy innocent might be tainted with a police or criminal
01:53:23 police or criminal record because the way I constructed the cover identity precluded that as a
01:53:42 possibility uh before um forgive me did you ever consider that um there might be an impact on the family of of a deceased child for example let's say somebody has
01:53:54 example let's say somebody has processed um in their cover identity and they don't turn up for court there may be Bale inquiries is at the the the child's known address uh police officers knocking on the door of the family of the deceased child is that something you ever applied your mind to I'm sorry you're asking me
01:54:05 your mind to I'm sorry you're asking me to comment on things I didn't do no but there were things that but you were told that to maintain cover of these sort of things came up to a certain extent so did it ever
01:54:17 up to a certain extent so did it ever did it you ever apply your mind to the to to look if I'm in this sit situation I have to maintain cover these might these are the possible consequences for other people did you did that ever cross
01:54:30 other people did you did that ever cross your mind at all was I say the the way I constructed my cover identity that couldn't have happened well we'll get on to that in in due
01:54:41 to that in in due course uh I think you had uh before your uh uh deployment you had a uh some people would say Mentor some I think use the term point of contact in an officer hn9 is that right
01:54:54 hn9 is that right don't give us the name please but you can
01:55:07 check yes uh were you aware that hn9 was arrested and cautioned for Bill posting whilst he was deployed no do you ever ask his advice as to what to do if you were
01:55:14 were arrested I don't believe so no so I'm moving on to another topic is
01:55:29 no so I'm moving on to another topic is that a convenient moment certainly um we normally have a break of 15 minutes at this point in the morning um I trust that will be sufficient for your purposes yes sir good we'll uh adjourn for 15
01:55:51 minutes
02:12:50 e e
02:13:43 Greatful um hn22 was there any training or guidance provided as to what to do if you became privy to uh material or information that attracted Legal Professional privilege not beyond what every officer would receive
02:13:54 every officer would receive so nothing specific to undercover work or your SDS deployment
02:14:07 or your SDS deployment no did you have any such training before you joined the SDS yes and what did you understand privileged material information to involve but Communications between a a lawyer and their client did you ever come across
02:14:20 their client did you ever come across information that you considered might be subject to uh privilege whilst you were deployed
02:14:29 no did you ever attend meetings where legal matters were discussed maybe for example following someone's arrest or something like that not that I recall
02:14:37 no if such material or information came to your attention would you have considered it appropriate to report on it yes
02:14:47 yes why the decision as to what should happen to it then would be taken by those officers dealing with the
02:15:12 information did you never exercise your own judgment as to uh what intelligence you should include in an intelligence report and what you should leave out generally speaking
02:15:22 no did you receive any guidance or training on on Racial equality or or or racism uh whilst you were in the SDS not was on SDs no did you receive any in advance of
02:15:36 joining in terms of what all police officers receive yes did you ever witness any racist or or racially discriminatory conduct
02:15:49 or racially discriminatory conduct whilst you were serving on the SDS or in special Branch or in the wider Metropolitan Police [Music]
02:15:55 [Music] service throughout my service you mean with yes within London yeah you did what sort of racist conduct did you come
02:16:05 come across comments made by other officers outside of special branch and what sort of comments did you
02:16:17 of comments did you hear uh derogatory comments about black or Asian people did did you ever challenge such comments
02:16:29 did did you ever challenge such comments yes what was the reaction of those um to you challenging
02:16:37 them without thinking of specific examples they simply wouldn't make those comments in front of me
02:16:46 again did you ever report individuals who made comments like that to your superiors
02:16:48 superiors yes do you remember of your impus took action o over comments not specifically
02:16:59 action o over comments not specifically no it's my fault for clumsy question are you saying you don't remember or that they didn't take action I don't recall any specific details or I don't recall any particular disciplinary action that took
02:17:12 took place what about informal action do you remember if anyone was ever any supervising officer had a word with somebody else that was my assumption right
02:17:22 right um your service um as an SDS undercover officer overlapped with a black officer called Trevor Morris that's right isn't it yes being careful as to names please
02:17:38 it yes being careful as to names please were you aware of any issues in relation to race that involved Trevor Morris and anyone else in in SDS management no it's been suggested uh by Mr Morris
02:17:50 no it's been suggested uh by Mr Morris and it's supported by Peter Francis that hn
02:17:54 hn 86 as they're known in this inquiry credited another officer with intelligence in relation to uh the Welling riots that was provided by Morris pause a moment while he looks at the forgive
02:18:05 the forgive me I'm sorry could you repeat this yes so it's been suggested by Mr Morris and this is supported by Peter Francis that h86 mhm credited another officer with
02:18:18 h86 mhm credited another officer with intelligence that related to the Welling riots that was provided by Trevor Morris and that this was motivated uh by racism did you know
02:18:31 motivated uh by racism did you know anything about this no did you have any experience of h86 demonstrating racist
02:18:45 experience of h86 demonstrating racist Behavior or conduct no did you ever hear that he did no could we bring up again please the um manuscript note MPS 07 38101
02:18:56 this is b46 of the hard copy
02:19:03 bundle and on page two
02:19:11 please uh just towards the top um this is what's recorded when dealing with your your early career about three lines down we can see the it says they posted C Squad Black and Brown's desk
02:19:25 C Squad Black and Brown's desk single-issue anti-racist groups uh closed uh end mid 1990s do you see that yes sorry 1980s I'm corrected thank
02:19:42 you and I think in your witness statement you say that you worked on a uh cquad desk that monitored extreme leftwing attempts to take over local community groups do you remember saying that yes and is that a reference to the same desk that's being referred to in this document it is
02:20:01 you um was it the activities of single issue anti-racist groups that special Branch was looking into or was it the
02:20:12 Branch was looking into or was it the influence of other groups on them it we were looking at the generally speaking extreme leftwing attempts at
02:20:19 infiltration is there a reason why that's not recorded in the operation Hearn document and the description of the desk is limited to single issue anti-racist
02:20:30 anti-racist groups I don't know can you recollect any of the groups that that desk was looking into can you remember the names of any of
02:20:42 remember the names of any of them quite possibly Socialist Workers Party
02:20:44 Party um and what about the
02:20:51 the um anti-racist or Community groups can you
02:20:52 you remember any of those uh there were campaigns around um new7
02:21:01 um new7 new8 I recall right so um Hackney
02:21:13 new8 I recall right so um Hackney Community defense Association did that ever come across that desk possibly south or monitoring group do you remember them yes new monitoring project yes right
02:21:24 is the term blacks and Browns is that your
02:21:26 your terminology it was the common name referencing the desk why was the desk referred to as blacks and
02:21:37 referred to as blacks and Browns they were the victims of the extreme left wing infiltration would you accept that to refer to uh these um groups as blacks and
02:21:47 and Browns is to use racist terminology
02:21:58 Browns is to use racist terminology it certainly by today standards would be racist but our understanding at that time was
02:22:00 time was different would you accept that by any
02:22:15 different would you accept that by any standards of any time in the last 40 50 60 years or so that using terminology like that to describe a segment of society uh is racist and unacceptable it's certainly is now at the time I think most people's
02:22:26 the time I think most people's understanding was that if you use such terminology without trying to be derogatory or divisive then it was acceptable and over time uh I think there's been a growing awareness that
02:22:44 there's been a growing awareness that actually it's not it is offensive and shouldn't be used I mean anti-racist groups and local community groups weren't necessarily entirely made up of people from Minority backgrounds were they
02:22:51 they no but we weren't looking at the support
02:23:00 groups no you say you were looking at the groups that were trying to influence them is that right yes do does that make this terminology even less necessary in that
02:23:17 context it was simply shorthand to describe that particular desk was the use of this expression hm122 was it indicative of racist attitudes prevalent within the Metropolitan Police Service at the
02:23:26 at the time no as I say we weren't looking at black and brown groups we were looking at extreme left wing infiltration of those groups then why use the terminology black and brown at all it
02:23:40 terminology black and brown at all it was the terminology that existed when I went
02:23:53 there did you receive any guidance or training on sex discrimination or gender equality quality whilst you on the SDS no did you witness or hear about any sexist conduct whilst you were serving
02:24:06 sexist conduct whilst you were serving uh with the Metropolitan Police Service yes uh what sort of uh conduct did you uh
02:24:07 uh witness derogatory comments about women
02:24:19 comments about women yes did you challenge such comments when you heard them yes did you report those who made such comments ments to your superiors on occasion yes are you aware whether on those occasions any action was taken against the individuals who made such comments I'm not aware of formal action no informal action I
02:24:35 formal action no informal action I believed so at the time yes did this extend to your service on the
02:24:38 SDS no not that I
02:24:49 recall you say in your witness statement if it assists you as a paragraph 36 at page 11 that society's views generally were quite different and some more recent diversity
02:25:01 recent diversity Concepts had not been invented nor had the training to to go with it do you remember saying that in your witness statement was that fact
02:25:18 yes why did you feel the need to say that society's views were different in the context of addressing racism and sexism within the police I think I was specifically asked to make a
02:25:28 comment can you explain what you mean by the expression um recent diversity Concepts in that appreciation of what and what is not offensive has developed over years would you not accept that
02:25:44 over years would you not accept that there has been a an appreciation of of diversity for for many years now it's constantly changed and developed yes would you accept that that that
02:25:57 that appreciation extended to back back to when you were serving on the Metropolitan Police Service yes but I think then it was regarded as uh good manners or good behavior as opposed to something
02:26:18 offensive in building your uh Legend in preparation to deploy undercover uh you use the name of a uh deceased child in part and took on the cover name of Neil Richardson is that right that's
02:26:36 right were you told um to use a deceased child's Identity or was this something you decided to do off your own bat no it was suggested to me uh in order to obtain certain
02:26:50 obtain certain documentation being careful as to name names please can can you remember who suggested this tactic to you no can you remember if it was a fellow undercover
02:27:03 remember if it was a fellow undercover officer somebody in the back office or or somebody in management not specifically no can you remember whether you were given any advice as to how to um
02:27:19 given any advice as to how to um identify an identity and the sort of factors you might want to take into account account When selecting one yes I don't remember the specific advice but certainly there was some and does it follow from your early
02:27:31 some and does it follow from your early answers you you won't be able to assist with who gave you that sort of advice
02:27:49 no was there any written guidance on the use of a deceased child's identity that was available to you you no can you remember if there's anything like that in a in a ring binder or folder or
02:28:00 in a in a ring binder or folder or anything similar available to um SDS officers not that I recall no now I think you explained in your witness statement that you attended St Catherine's house the register of births and deaths in order to research an
02:28:13 and deaths in order to research an identity for you to use do you remember saying that
02:28:20 yes and you also explained in your witness
02:28:24 witness statement um that you think that you didn't use the surname of the uh deceased child but probably either made a surname up or combined the first name
02:28:37 a surname up or combined the first name and date of birth of the deceased child with either the maiden name of the child's mother or details of another record do you remember saying that yes and you remember saying in your witness statement that you thought it was more
02:28:51 statement that you thought it was more likely that you lifted the surname from another record do you remember saying that
02:29:03 yes and why do you think it was more likely that you combined these details from more than one record I was attempting to remember where I chosen the name from I don't have an exact recollection where I got it do you discuss
02:29:16 it do you discuss this method of putting together an identity other words a a real first name and date of birth together with an unrelated surname do you remember
02:29:29 unrelated surname do you remember discussing that with your managers yes were they supportive of this tactic yes did you obtain copies of the child's birth and death
02:29:42 child's birth and death certificates I don't recall but quite likely
02:29:43 likely yes um can you remember uh whether uh um such documents would be kept by you
02:29:57 um such documents would be kept by you or or with the SDS office certainly not by me c can you remember what happened to such documents at the conclusion of a deployment
02:30:08 no now you explain in your witness statement that the Revolutionary Communist Party the first group that you deployed to had security procedures that meant your cover name was likely to be checked do you remember saying that yes
02:30:25 checked do you remember saying that yes and you went on to say that fabricating this detail so in other words using an unassociated surname provided a safety net and that it was important to have a watertight cover story do you remember saying that
02:30:40 cover story do you remember saying that yes how would it have provided a safety net if I if they had checked for a record of the birth under that name and date of birth they wouldn't have found one and my expectation was that I would
02:30:57 one and my expectation was that I would then be challenged on that I would then give an explanation that it was a mother's maiden name whilst they went away to check that would give me an opportunity to safely
02:31:11 would give me an opportunity to safely withdraw did you know whether as part of their security procedures the RCP checked birth certificates I'm whereare they knew about it about that method see it was widely known and that they had the capability of
02:31:25 and that they had the capability of doing so whether they actually ever did or not I don't know did you think that there was a chance the group might check the birth certificate in your case
02:31:43 yes and you've just told us the reason you used the unassociated surname was to buy
02:31:48 buy you uh a bit of time yes in that event is that right
02:32:03 [Music] if the name was ultimately uh partly based on the identity of a deceased child and partly
02:32:19 fabricated what was the purpose of using any part of real identity in the first place I can't recall which documentation it was but there was one particular documentation that could not be obtained
02:32:30 documentation that could not be obtained without a genuine name and date of birth all the others could be obtained and the surnames
02:32:44 changed whilst you're on the SDS were you ever made aware of an undercover police officer uh known to the inquire as h in 297 real name Richard Clark
02:32:56 as h in 297 real name Richard Clark cover named Rick Gibson who deployed in the mid-70s was that somebody who you ever made aware of I know the name were
02:33:07 ever made aware of I know the name were you made aware of this individual having been confronted by his own birth and death certificates by an activist uh which led to his withdrawal from the field no
02:33:26 just want to um show you one document not in the hard copy bundle it's in a loose leaf document serf for you it's MPS
02:33:32 MPS 0731
02:33:48 061 and if we can go uh to page 14 please
02:33:57 now this [Music]
02:33:59 [Music] particular um record dated the 26th of September
02:34:06 1989
02:34:13 um and it was a record made of the possibility of a television documentary uh documentary forgive me possibly involving the activist that exposed Richard Clark being
02:34:25 exposed Richard Clark being made so latter part 1989 is when you deployed is that right that's right uh were you ever made aware that um there was this possibility of this TV
02:34:42 was this possibility of this TV documentary being made that may touch on uh the fact that um Richard Clark's um cover identity had been compromised we ever made aware of that no I just want
02:34:57 no I just want to um look at one thing the uh author of this document says that um bullet point two just center of the page it says upon receipt of this uh
02:35:08 page it says upon receipt of this uh apprise current SDS officers through adci hm 109 and reinforce the instructions already given them
02:35:21 instructions already given them regarding their contact with police Personnel Etc did you see that yes were you ever appraise of this situation with Richard Clark
02:35:36 no does it follow that um certainly in your case
02:35:38 your case then uh this particular um plan of action wasn't carried out nobody told you that there was a documentary possibly to be aired possibly carried a
02:35:53 possibly to be aired possibly carried a um a risk uh of exposure of the deceased child identity
02:35:59 tactic well I'm not sure the context but that point two uh says reinforce instructions are their contact with police Personnel Etc that may have
02:36:11 police Personnel Etc that may have happened I don't recall it I see but not in the context of di Clark
02:36:30 um I appreciate um your evidence is that you weren't aware of this uh but would you agree that this sort of development so TV program uh touching on this this subject ought to be something that should have been of concern to your superiors would you agree with
02:36:41 you agree with that certainly SDS should have been told it would be their judgment as to what we needed to know and at what time would you expected in those
02:36:56 you expected in those circumstances SDS management to have had a rethink about the use of the deceased child's identity tactic I I don't know the circumstances I I can't really comment what they should or shouldn't have done uh can we look please now at uh MPS
02:37:13 done uh can we look please now at uh MPS 07 23156 which is at B1 of the hard copy bundle
02:37:29 now um these are the diary notes of um Martin gray who is one of the um off officers that you've told us uh recruited you into the
02:37:40 recruited you into the SDS H and if we just I just want to look at page um three with you please uh and we can see
02:37:48 see um just above Center there's a record for July 1989 Saturday the 1st
02:37:54 1st hn22 OMD to Durham do you see that yes and ompd I think means outside Metropolitan Police District is that right all right and then below that August 1989 Wednesday the 16th another entry
02:38:06 entry hn22 uh OMD Kent do you see that yes now I think your part of your Legend
02:38:19 yes now I think your part of your Legend was uh that you had spent your school or your fortive years in Kent do you remember that yes do you recollect traveling to Kent not specifically no no so uh do you
02:38:33 so uh do you accept having refreshed your memory from this record that you did travel to Kent yes can you remember why you went there to familiarize myself with landmarks or anything that somebody of that age would
02:38:48 anything that somebody of that age would be expected to remember whether it's the name of the the shopping center or the local football team or whatever can you remember if you went alone or or with anybody else I don't
02:39:01 anybody else I don't recall can you remember how much time you spent there
02:39:10 no can you remember what it is other than what you've already told us what it is you did whilst you were
02:39:17 there no it was simply that so that I could
02:39:19 could talk reasonably as if I had lived there now Durham which is the other area referred to you that was the area where the uh birth and death of the child
02:39:32 the uh birth and death of the child whose identity you used was registered is that right is that's right right do
02:39:45 is that right is that's right right do you Rec recollect traveling to Durham no do you accept that um the document supports that you did yes
02:39:55 can you remember the reason why you went to
02:40:03 to dorham of the same reason to familiarize myself with those things somebody would be expected to remember at that
02:40:18 age can you remember if you went alone or with anyone else no I don't recall that can you remember how much time time you spent there uh less than a day I think can you remember what it is you did other than what you've already told us whilst you were there
02:40:46 no G given that your Legend was that your formative years were spent in Kent was there any really any reason to familiarize yourself with um
02:40:49 with um aspects of the Durham area because following your Legend through you would have been very very young yes before moving to to to Kent do I understand that correctly yes yes so
02:41:08 I understand that correctly yes yes so was there any real reason to to go up to darum to familiarize yourself with the area simply because I didn't know the area at all U and even though my cover was that I'd left there at a young age
02:41:21 was that I'd left there at a young age it would still be reasonable to expect somebody to have a certain amount of knowledge or familiarity with
02:41:29 names was another reason to visit that area to check if the family of the deceased child was still connected to the address on the birth certificate no are you sure about that
02:41:43 no are you sure about that totally did you undertake any research of the home address of the deceased child no did you attend the home address no did you undertake any Research into the family of the child no did you
02:42:01 the family of the child no did you undertake any Research into any other aspect of the child's life
02:42:12 no do you know if Regional special Branch was ever tasked to look into the deceased child's family and their circumstance ances certainly not by me do you know if
02:42:26 certainly not by me do you know if anyone else might have tasked them to do so no would you have expected such inquiries to have been made
02:42:37 no was it suggested to you that these trips
02:42:42 trips uh uh these familiarization trips as you turn them uh were something that you ought to do or was that a decision you made for yourself I I think it was probably suggested uh in general conversations about what
02:42:57 in general conversations about what happens if somebody says they come from the same
02:42:59 the same place now you said in your witness statement that there was at least one question and answer session with one of the managers to test whether your Legend
02:43:10 the managers to test whether your Legend was sufficiently well thought through do you remember saying that yes now other than this question and answer session were you aware whether your managers did anything independently to test the viability of your cover
02:43:25 to test the viability of your cover identity no is that no they didn't or no you're not aware I'm I'm not aware
02:43:39 see did you consider uh if there was any risk to the deceased child's family as a result of your use of the identity the only risk would be if somebody had ident identified that
02:43:53 somebody had ident identified that particular document which say I can't remember which one it was yes had discovered that but there was no reason to suppose how anybody could do
02:44:16 so what about if somebody had put two and two together in other words located the birth certificate where the the first name and the date of birth matched all right um did it ever occur to you that
02:44:27 right um did it ever occur to you that they may use that document to locate the Family there's no reason to suppose they could have located that document they would never have known the name why did
02:44:41 would never have known the name why did you say that they would never have known the the name on the birth certificate because you use the uh un related surname is that is that what you're
02:44:52 that what you're saying but let's say um the best they could do was find a match to the first and first name and
02:45:06 match to the first and first name and the and the date of birth did that ever apply do you ever apply your mind to that there's no reason to think that they would having discovered a false
02:45:18 they would having discovered a false surname then assumed that the date of birth and first name were absolutely correct
02:45:25 so does it follow you say you didn't consider that there was any risk to the family of the um deceased child
02:45:38 yes did you consider any alternative use to the deceased child's identity in creating your own cover uh identity yes the alternative was to not have
02:45:46 have documentation were you comfortable with the use of the deceased child identity
02:45:54 identity tactic I can't say I was comfortable with it but it was the only option I had if I was to successfully deploy what made you
02:46:12 uncomfortable it's not pleasant to use a child's identity especially when they died at such a young
02:46:17 age I just want to take you to uh documents not in the heart hard copy bundle so you have this in loose leaf uh referen is MPS 0728
02:46:44 969 0728 969
02:46:56 this is the SCS annual report for 1994 and 1995 so little while after the conclusion of your deployment all right hm122 uh and I just want to look at what it says uh please on
02:47:11 um yes page um 17 to start
02:47:28 all right page 18 please actually thank you so it's 18 on the system 17 on the document and document says this beginning at paragraph 10.1 uh management have conducted a thorough review of all uh cover documentation
02:47:40 review of all uh cover documentation available to support a field officers Bona fighers one established practice has been discontinued and new procedures have been introduced research in this important area will continue in the year ahead starting undercover duties in
02:47:52 ahead starting undercover duties in November 1994 hn 26 became the first field officer never to run a risk of one day being confronted with a death certificate in her cover name that is to say she has adopted a new system which
02:48:06 say she has adopted a new system which does not involve obtaining cover details in the name of someone whose birth and death is recorded in official records at St Katherine's house and then over the page at paragraph
02:48:19 page at paragraph 10.5 the adoption of a purely fictional the adoption of purely fictional cover identities has an overriding advantage for the security of the STS operation faced with suspicion and distrust a field officer may never satisfy a
02:48:32 field officer may never satisfy a hostile Inquirer who has reason to believe he is uncovered a police Informer an officer's useful
02:48:42 Informer an officer's useful intelligence gathering role may be at an end however if the inquir is unable to reach a def definite conclusion as in finding a death certificate for the person Under Suspicion he remains dealing with the more General problem of a possible Informer as opposed to an
02:48:53 a possible Informer as opposed to an undercover spy thus this strategy seeks to address a worst case scenario and prevent a hostile group obtaining valuable information about the methods of of the
02:49:06 SDS now during your time in the field um hn22 uh were you ever made aware of a possible move away from the use of the dece of the deceased um child's identity tactic no
02:49:23 careful as to names please but you had a colleague hn 56 who uh was in the back office I think mid 1989 deployed early 1990 just let you catch up at hn
02:49:43 56 and that individual's deployment concluded in early 1991 and overlapped with yours do you remember hn 56 I I recognize the name but I don't Rec call him no were you aware that that
02:49:57 him no were you aware that that individual used the holy fictitious identity that he he's told us was prompted by hn 109
02:50:08 no do you remember whether you had any conversation with him as to how to create a cover identity
02:50:17 no are you able to say why a holy fictitious identity was considered to be
02:50:31 fictitious identity was considered to be a viable proposition for him but not for you I don't know what organization he was covering and for the one I was looking at I'd be subjected to a security interview where the documentation could be
02:50:40 checked do you accept that the use of a holy fictitious identity would have been less risky because it couldn't have been verified at all against genuine birth and death records and by verified I mean even in part uh with reference to that
02:50:53 even in part uh with reference to that combination of the first and birth and date of first name and date of birth yes it would have been much preferable to use that but you wouldn't have any documentation to back up your
02:51:10 identity another one of your colleagues uh hn 25 please don't use the real name but um I'll just give you a moment just to to look it up
02:51:24 yes now when hm25 was interviewed by operation Hearn he asserted that an organization if an organization was looking into your date of birth it was his view that it was it was all over
02:51:36 his view that it was it was all over that's what what's he told operation Hearn did you agree with that it may have been true with his group but the issue with the RCP was
02:51:47 group but the issue with the RCP was that they had a security officer for the branch and who conducted a security interview where they asked for your
02:51:57 documentation now going to ask you a bit more on this topic a little later but you had a later down the line after the
02:52:08 you had a later down the line after the conclusion of your deployment you had a A mentee or a point of contact I think you you you use that term called Mark Jenner do you remember Mark Jenner yes and Mark Jenner used a holy fictitious cover identity were you aware of that
02:52:23 cover identity were you aware of that no did you ever have any discussion with him or provide any advice as to establishing his cover identity no that my role was purely
02:52:42 pastoral did you ever consider the time that you used the deceased child's identity did you ever consider the possibility of being found out by the family at some
02:52:56 of being found out by the family at some stage that the identity had been used is that something that crossed your mind no I had no reason to think that they
02:53:02 they would we know now that some of the families are aware of the use of the tactic did you at the time um ever consider the sorrow suffered by the
02:53:20 consider the sorrow suffered by the child's family yes of course how did that make you feel as I say I was uncomfortable with it but felt that I had no
02:53:37 choice can you remember the cause of death of the child whose identity you used
02:53:45 no the cause of death was Progressive cerebral sclerosis sclerosis at the time that you used the identity did you have any understanding of what that was
02:54:03 of what that was no do you have any understanding of what that condition is now not particularly no other than what I've
02:54:16 read Progressive cerebral sclerosis is a neurod degenerative disease did the child's cause of death ever make you think twice about using his identity
02:54:28 identity no did
02:54:30 no did his condition ever make you think about the anguish that it must have caused to his
02:54:42 his family beyond the anguish that the death of any child would cause not specifically that condition no the inquiry has obtained witness statement from the child's mother uh have you considered uh the
02:54:57 mother uh have you considered uh the evidence of the impact of your use of Neil Robin Martin's identity that she has provided I saw the statement
02:55:07 statement yesterday is there anything that you wish to say to her or or Neil's surviving siblings given your use of her son's
02:55:16 son's details I think she makes clear in her statement that an apology would
02:55:30 an apology would not assist her but that what she really wanted was answer as to some questions and I'm quite happy to give those
02:55:44 answers now in your witness statement you describe how um you had a number of bedsets or or one-bedroom Flats uh as cover accommodation during your deployment do you remember you remember saying that yes can I just look at one address please um uh that um you
02:55:58 address please um uh that um you um uh is recorded that you use whilst you are targeted against class War uh and that document please MPS 05 27079 so that's B8 of the hard copy
02:56:11 bundle MPS 05 27079
02:56:33 I'll just wait for the system to catch up thank you now do you see the cover address is recorded there is 39 fer Road London in the E8 postal area yes now
02:56:45 London in the E8 postal area yes now hm122 others have done some research into this address and uh have located a Fen Road in in E5 and a Farah Road in
02:56:59 Fen Road in in E5 and a Farah Road in nh8 but no Farah Road can you remember the correct address where you were living in your cover identity at this time no so if I was to ask you uh whether this uh
02:57:17 was to ask you uh whether this uh document presents an accurate record or not as to where you were living at the time you were deployed into class war you wouldn't be able to assist me is that right no I'm afraid not all right now something else you explain uh in your witness statement is how the rcps vetting process involves a home
02:57:30 rcps vetting process involves a home visit so a visit to your cover cover accommodation is that right yes so we've moved backwards from class war to the RCP and you go on to explain in your
02:57:42 RCP and you go on to explain in your witness statement that this meant you spent a lot of time at your cover uh accommodation at the beginning of your your deployment is that right that's right was that sort of
02:57:55 right was that sort of visit was it carried out unexpectedly or or arranged
02:58:02 unexpectedly because of it was because it was unexpected did you alter the pattern of what you were doing to try to ensure that you were at your cover accommodation when the RCP called
02:58:17 accommodation when the RCP called yes does that mean you stayed in a lot at the beginning of your deployment employment I would have gone to that address at times that would be expected
02:58:30 address at times that would be expected yes and what sort of times was were that were those well there could be good reasons for being out during the day at work and potentially during part of the
02:58:42 work and potentially during part of the evening um potentially for a short times at the
02:58:46 at the weekend but the same as anyone lives an ordinary life
02:58:52 do you accept that you
02:58:54 you um spent prolonged time at the cover
02:59:06 um spent prolonged time at the cover address in the event that um the RCP may have uh come to uh test test the veracity of it yes yes did you consider that that a productive use of your time it was a necessary use
02:59:22 presumably the RCP members were aware that you had a a job or a cover job yes so they wouldn't have expected you necessarily to be at
02:59:35 you necessarily to be at home at any given time is that fair that's right yeah was there really any need to to to sort of hang around the flat in those early
02:59:46 early days uh just to make sure that the you were there to um deal with the visit as and when um it took
02:59:54 took place yes can you remember how much time you spent waiting for the RCP to no it's only a short period after the security interview uh up until they did visit by
03:00:08 interview uh up until they did visit by short period can you assist us with how long you
03:00:12 long you mean I don't recall exactly but a matter of weeks weeks all right
03:00:22 um you worked um um in the SDS back office uh before being deployed is that right yes and that work included helping with intelligence reports that have been prepared by undercover officers who were
03:00:36 prepared by undercover officers who were in the field at the time is that correct that's great did you ever read those reports
03:00:43 reports yes did you ever feel the need to address the necessity of the content no did you ever uh take the view that there was too much going in or not enough going in no my role was purely administrative
03:01:01 in no my role was purely administrative for the reports did the tone of some of the reports that came across your desk ever concern you not that I
03:01:15 recall as a result of this role did you come to understand who the consumers of SDS intelligence were where where the reports were going I was aware that they were going back to special branch and some of them
03:01:28 back to special branch and some of them perhaps most of them to Security Service see was there a house style for the drafting of intelligence
03:01:35 reports there were certain elements of of style but generally speaking it was whatever the officer had written I see so some elements of style carried through but there was other not there was formatting I see
03:01:48 was formatting I see and did you learn how to draft intelligence reports before joining the SDS or or
03:01:57 SDS or or during uh I my duties had already included writing intelligence reports and were intelligence reports
03:02:13 reports and were intelligence reports that you wrote up before joining the SDS were they written up in the same way or were they written up differently there was some formatting differences but otherwise no okay being careful as to names please were you responsible for producing the final typed
03:02:24 final typed reports for the SDS I don't recall exactly I I think that was perhaps one of the sergeants I see so not you you weren't responsible
03:02:36 see so not you you weren't responsible for that one of the sergeants you think I think I don't recall have you ever heard of intelligence reports being sanitized yes um what did you you
03:02:50 sanitized yes um what did you you understand was meant by the sanitization of a
03:02:55 of a report to remove uh any references that might identify the author I
03:03:07 see and C can you remember at what stage of the process if it occurred this sanitization would take place would it be by you as the author or would it be after you submitted your report or or do you simply not know
03:03:24 you simply not know are we still talking about back office or uh so uh yes back office please
03:03:27 please uh I might have done some sanitizing under supervision and when you're in the field I wouldn't sanitize it uh in the
03:03:44 field I wouldn't sanitize it uh in the field I would submit whatever I thought uh was relevant and if I wasn't sure I would include it and let others make that
03:03:46 that decision uh now now uh I think you tell us in your witness statement that um you would provide your intelligence whilst
03:04:03 would provide your intelligence whilst in the field now in a narrative form and handwritten although sometimes you may have produced some on on your home computer is that right
03:04:10 yes and did other members of your family use that
03:04:11 use that computer
03:04:13 computer no did you take any precautions to ensure that nobody else had access access to the
03:04:27 access to the information uh that was any information related to your deployment that was on that computer no it was uh used I was using it as a typewriter if you like there's nothing stored on there did so did you ever retain information on the computer
03:04:47 no and I think uh you say in your witness statement that you reported what you observed and left it to your managers and others to determine the relevance of the information that you supplied is that
03:05:06 right does it follow from that um that uh you would record everything you could remember about your observations in the field say at a particular event or or meeting you would record as much detail as you could recollect yes and I think you've told us that at
03:05:17 yes and I think you've told us that at you weren't applying any filter to the information that you were uh including in reports you left that for others to determin well I wouldn't include
03:05:28 determin well I wouldn't include anything I felt to be completely irrelevant but so there was some assessment of of relevance when you were writing these reports all
03:05:45 right and was it a consequence of this approach uh that uh sometimes people's personal private and sensitive details might end up in a intelligence report
03:06:13 yes once you were uh in the field did you ever receive feedback on the content of your reporting
03:06:20 unofficial feedback certainly in relation to public order intelligence yes uh can you remember how regularly you receive feedback it would only be at a
03:06:34 feedback it would only be at a significant public order events so not a
03:06:40 so not a monthly event I see and did you were you ever
03:06:41 ever um was it ever suggested to you that you were including insufficient detail in in your
03:06:53 your reports not that I recall ever suggested to you that you were including too much or unnecessary detail in your reports
03:07:02 no um you paid overtime in your role as an SDS undercover officer that right yes and I think you explained in your witness statement that it made a significant increase to your take-home pay at most uh may have increased your
03:07:16 pay at most uh may have increased your pay packet you say by about 60% do you remember saying that that wasn't my estimate but yes I agreed with it
03:07:27 with it right um whose estimate was that whoever I was talking to at that time I see that was um anything said to you about opportunities to work over time whilst you're being recruited into the
03:07:45 whilst you're being recruited into the SDS it was implicit in the idea that I'd be working extended hours and away from home and was your opportunity for overtime or the potential for increased earnings was that something that attracted you to the undercover
03:07:57 attracted you to the undercover role it was an obvious benefit but so it wasn't the reason I undertook it no are you aware whether any of your colleagues any other undercover officers took into account the potential to earn more when deciding to take on the
03:08:13 earn more when deciding to take on the role um I'm not aware of any example and but I'm aware there are other roles within the special branch in indeed the police that would earn
03:08:30 more at an equivalent rank or level yes the um I think you explained in your witness statement there was a cap on overtime of 115 hours a month on average is that right
03:08:43 is that right yes are you aware as to whether this cap affected or had any impact on recruitment into the SDS I don't know I wasn't aware of the cap before I was deploy joined SDS anyway
03:08:59 um you say in your witness statement uh that you were not permitted to claim more hours than you worked but you also had to stay within the cap making it
03:09:13 had to stay within the cap making it sometimes difficult to reduce the time recorded into the D in The Diary into line uh with the cap while remaining consistent with your reporting do you remember saying that yes what did you mean by that did that
03:09:25 yes what did you mean by that did that mean that you actually worked more than you would record in your diary
03:09:36 yes a a and did the Times Record recorded in your diary were they submitted to anyone uh well submitted to the office
03:09:47 yes and does it follow from what you said that those times would be inaccurate because you're actually putting in more hours than than you were recording on paper yes did did the management or the office
03:10:01 office know that um these records were were deliberately inaccurate in that we were working more hours than we were claiming
03:10:18 yes now uh I think you explained to us um uh in your witness statement that so far as your tasking was concerned um responsible with DCI gray and Di hn 109 that's at the at the
03:10:34 and Di hn 109 that's at the at the outset of your deployment is that right yes and the group you uh supposed to infiltrate was the Revolutionary Communist party or the RCP yeah that's right um what sort of organization was the
03:10:43 the RCP a very Hardline Ultra left organization uh why was the RCP of interest to the um
03:10:59 SDS in assistance to the security service primarily uh as they were a subersive organization so the security service would assess them as a subversive organization uh and uh SDS uh
03:11:13 organization uh and uh SDS uh infiltration uh was as a result of the security service interest is that a fair summary I don't know when it was first covered um in your
03:11:24 covered um in your time there was also a public order component we'll look at that in in due
03:11:35 component we'll look at that in in due course uh but the principal component uh was uh on counter subversion grounds is that what you're say all
03:11:42 right now it's right that um some supporters and and I think you say in your statement most members of the uh R CPU aliases is that correct that's
03:11:53 CPU aliases is that correct that's correct and you describe your main role as being to identify individuals by their real names is that right that's right can you remember or did you know why you were tasked to find out real
03:12:10 why you were tasked to find out real names uh primarily my understanding was for vetting purposes all right we'll look at that in a little more detail a little later do you know what was done with the information uh that you obtained other than it was disseminated
03:12:24 obtained other than it was disseminated to other areas of special Branch or the security service
03:12:32 no you've told us that you think that the purpose of obtaining real names was for vetting purposes do you know or did you ever get the impression that it was used for blacklisting
03:12:44 used for blacklisting purposes I've not heard that suggested no
03:12:53 and what was your understanding of um subversion or a subversion group I forget the exact definition now
03:13:05 group I forget the exact definition now but roughly speaking those who seek the overthrow of democracy by I think the phrase violent industrial or other means were you aware of uh something labeled the Harris definition or the Lord Harris definition
03:13:28 no as well as giving consideration as to whether a group had subersive ideologies did you ever apply your mind as to whether in fact a group had the means and ability to carry any subversive intent out I understand that was a change in the
03:13:46 understand that was a change in the thinking in government security service that ultimately led to withdrawal of coverage to the RCP during your time in the field yes was it something that you ever
03:13:58 yes was it something that you ever applied your mind to whilst you were deployed I wasn't there to Define
03:14:07 subversion but did you ever think when you were feeding back on a particular group well they may think this but there isn't really a realistic opportunity that they're going to achieve it was that something that ever crossed your mind no I think the
03:14:25 ever crossed your mind no I think the threat was a national security threat if those people had got into positions of influence or
03:14:36 intelligence now you've uh spoken a little bit about public order concerns in relation to the RCP I think you described them in your witness statement as very minor do you do you remember using that expression
03:14:52 using that expression in in terms of the threat to disorder that's not that was never their intention to cause disorder I see um can I just bring up um a document please it's ucpi
03:15:05 please it's ucpi 30351 and that's a c85 of the hard copy bundle
03:15:33 thank you uh this is a report dated the 2nd of March 1992 attributed to you and it's an intelligence report about RCP stewards I just want to look at some bits of it paragraph 2 says the following people are often employed as stewards on public order occasions and are included either as organizers or because uh they have shown themselves
03:15:48 because uh they have shown themselves prepared to Resort to violence when they consider
03:15:49 consider necessary uh when employed as stewards all RCP members and supporters are under strict control of the chief steward and
03:16:00 strict control of the chief steward and team leaders in addition to these people all senior members of the RCP will involve themselves in physical violence when politically necessary uh and then under a privacy
03:16:13 necessary uh and then under a privacy redution it says this of an individual alth over very quiet demeanor that privacy was recently acquitted of causing Grievous bodily harm at Crown Court fought together with someone else arising from a fight whilst flyposting a matter of which he is quite proud and he now claims to have been
03:16:25 proud and he now claims to have been guilty at the bottom of the document there's a privacy redaction says of that individual a Founder supporter of the party and at one time a member although now returned to support a status privacy
03:16:41 now returned to support a status privacy is very much trusted for his reliability in a
03:16:42 in a fight um immediately over the page please um right at the top privacy is usually employed at in ifm so that's Irish Freedom Movement activities uh but
03:17:01 Irish Freedom Movement activities uh but will always be used in a stewarding role for any RCP or workers Against Racism activity he has in the past been involved in fights with class war activists um next uh but one although
03:17:12 activists um next uh but one although not an imposing physical presence and of acquired demeanor privacy was involved with privacy in a fight with two class war acttiv who were uh the worst for the encounter and then towards the bottom of
03:17:24 encounter and then towards the bottom of the page privacy was involved in a fight with class war activists together with privacy see above he's quite capable of violence and would not shrink from it in the
03:17:33 the future so so this report identifies RCB stewards who were in your assessment capable of violence is that is that right yes but it I think you
03:17:46 is that right yes but it I think you told us this wasn't a group that went looking for violence is that right not as a group no no uh and a term uh you
03:18:00 as a group no no uh and a term uh you used more than once in that report is and this is my expression uh not your words but people would resort to violence when necessary what did you mean when necess by the term when
03:18:13 by the term when necessary I don't recall this report off hand I've not seen it before uh
03:18:21 I don't know what the exact meaning of that phrase is I can only speak in general terms as to my appreciation of
03:18:33 them by the time that your infiltration of the RCP had concluded um in your assessment uh did the group have the ability or means to undermine or
03:18:44 ability or means to undermine or overthrow parliamentary democracy no I just want to um look at something
03:18:58 no I just want to um look at something you said in your witness statement which is for your assistance pages 40 to 41 paragraph
03:19:09 125 uh
03:19:24 you say the RCP was definitely a subversive organization but it was not really a challenge to public order it was thoroughly it was a thoroughly revolutionary organization uh in that uh it advocated the violent overthrow of the state but it was too small to threaten revolution
03:19:37 it was too small to threaten revolution in uh and of itself it wanted to create the potential for Revolution and then take over the leadership but I never heard any um practical plans how they were going to achieve that do you
03:19:48 were going to achieve that do you remember saying that in your witness statement
03:19:49 statement yes and I think given your slightly earlier comments that's a that's an assessment that you would standby is that fair yes I think so now did your focus of your deployment
03:20:04 so now did your focus of your deployment eventually switch to a a different group uh being class war yes what sort of
03:20:16 uh being class war yes what sort of organization was class war very Loosely organized um an amalgam of groups all over the country
03:20:22 uh what was the concern with this group uh public order primarily at the
03:20:36 time now you tell us in your witness statement um that when your deployment switch
03:20:38 switch Target
03:20:45 Target um you thought you were going to have an air gap of something like three months but you were pressed by uh DCI and 86 and in fact was given a month to transfer from the RCP to class war do you remember saying that yes did
03:21:01 war do you remember saying that yes did you feel like you had sufficient time to transition from the one group to the other I'd made my plans for the transition on the basis of three months um but was confronted with the desire to do it within one month so I made
03:21:15 do it within one month so I made alternative plans I would have been more comfortable with three did you feel you'd been given sufficient time to prepare for your next
03:21:28 infiltration I probably didn't when I was first told but as it turned out I
03:21:42 did did you feel that the uh immediacy to change groups did you feel that that was something that might have exposed you to any risk yes clearly I be because I would have to have a cover story as to how that had come
03:21:55 about being careful pleases to any o operational sensitivities but do you have any idea why you were pressed in this way I believe looking back on it
03:22:06 this way I believe looking back on it was because of a campaign that occurred the year before that class war had organized do you remember the name of
03:22:17 organized do you remember the name of that campaign summer of discontent I see and that the intelligence was that they were planning to build upon that and create even more disorder the next summer was there any formal Pro process in in place to sort of address your concerns uh about um this push to to be
03:22:33 concerns uh about um this push to to be ready to get into class war quicker than you anticipated was there any formal process in place to to raise this with your
03:22:44 your superiors no there was no formal process that was a matter of discussion between myself and the managers as to whether was achievable and how it could be done did you take it up with them oh yes and what was their reaction to you
03:22:55 yes and what was their reaction to you saying that uh you didn't think a month was sufficient time I don't think I put it in that those terms forgive me how
03:23:08 it in that those terms forgive me how did you put it uh in that I would rather have three months to lay all the groundwork fully and what was their
03:23:20 groundwork fully and what was their reaction that they needed it done sooner than that uh I reassessed and came back to them and
03:23:32 agreed uh now something you also go on to say in your witness statement is that being deployed for too long risked burnout or over association with the target group do you remember saying that yes what did you mean by over Association
03:23:48 not sure I can remember what my intention behind that comment was it might help you then if I take you to the relevant part it's page 19 paragraph
03:24:08 61 uh says it was also made clear to me in the conversations with my managers that the role would last approximately four years I do not know whether there was any particular scientific or operational basis for this figure
03:24:19 operational basis for this figure although it stance the reason they'll take a UCO some time to achieve a position where they can access access reliable information and being deployed for too long risks burnout or over association with the target group does
03:24:35 association with the target group does that help you in in your recollection as to what you meant by over association yes I I think by the time that I made this statement I'd become aware of some issues such as was mentioned earlier of somebody identifying
03:24:50 somebody identifying with the Target and in fact joining them whilst you were in the SDS did you become aware of any undercover officer who had over associated in any way with members of the group no any rumors or anything like that about members being
03:25:08 anything like that about members being uh forgive me officers being um getting in too deep with their their group or members of their group no I was aware there was some sort of Scandal involving
03:25:19 there was some sort of Scandal involving the officer you mentioned earlier uh but I didn't know what the Scandal was and didn't know that it was of the nature that it turned out I see is that Mike Mike chitty yes all
03:25:32 right and what about afterwards m m chiter side were you made aware of anyone who was um uh again said to have got overly familiar or overly associated with their group no I don't think so
03:25:49 so is that a convenient moment certainly um we'll um adjourn until 2:00
03:26:15 please for