Afternoon session examining HN1 Matt Rayner about his relationship with witness 'Gretchen', management of SDS officers, and knowledge of other officers' romantic relationships. Detailed questioning about his interactions with Gretchen and disputed accounts of their relationship.
00:07:58 e e
00:08:44 all or part of this afternoon's proceedings are going to be live streamed with the voice own transmission uh those with electronic devices may use them to report what they have heard in the hearing room but only 20 minutes only 10 minutes after the
00:08:58 20 minutes only 10 minutes after the event which they're describing uh has elapsed
00:09:00 elapsed such devices may not be used for recording thank you hm1 can you see and hear me yes thank you I want to move now to ask you about an individual who has
00:09:14 to ask you about an individual who has given a witness statement to the inquiry since you were last giving evidence in January and who the inquiry has assigned the cipher Gretchen you have seen a statement provided by that individual have you I
00:09:32 provided by that individual have you I have yes and you're aware who Gretchen really is in their real identity yes could we um have on the screen that witness statement I want to ask you about um some of its contents please it's ucpi 0
00:09:56 37534 and we see it's dated the 7th of February of this year
00:10:08 February of this year I'm going to skip the um introductory uh remarks and go please to thank you section two can we focus in on paragraphs 2.1 and
00:10:17 2.2 um Gretchen states that she met Matt that's a reference to Matt Raina around 1994 through London Animal Action do you recall meeting Gretchen in those circumstances yes and around that time
00:10:31 circumstances yes and around that time yes she uh states that she was active in London Animal Action is that your recollection yes and that she saw you regularly at meetings and protests again does that Accord with your recollection yes at paragraph 2.2 she mentions in
00:10:44 yes at paragraph 2.2 she mentions in particular protests outside the leaden street slaughter house on Sundays once a month yes agree with
00:10:59 month yes agree with her and um she describes uh that the part you would play there would be shouting do you agree with that a bit of shouting yeah along the lines I've described and then you would all go to the pub afterwards again to what extent
00:11:15 the pub afterwards again to what extent does that Accord with your recollection well sometimes but not always I know it's splitting ha but yes um she describes you transporting them in your van to many places including National demos that seems to be consistent with
00:11:29 demos that seems to be consistent with what you've told the inquiry to date is that fair yes and then paragraph 2.
00:11:32 2. uh4
00:11:38 please she describes you as being quite flirty with her were you flirty with Gretchen absolutely not no no you'll recall that when Miss Fuller gave
00:11:49 recall that when Miss Fuller gave evidence uh she described you also as flirty and when I put that to you you disagreed with that evidence especially in so far as it suggested FL in with other
00:12:00 other people do you maintain that absolutely
00:12:12 people do you maintain that absolutely yeah could we um take the statement down for a moment please and put on the screen MPS 0245
00:12:16 0245 872 which is an intelligence report attributable to uh1 dated the 24th of January of
00:12:28 January of 1996 so it's your B uh so it's in your supplemental Gretchen bundle at
00:12:44 B3 hm1 this is a report about Gretchen um and under peculiar you describe her as well-dressed and attractive did you find Gretchen to be well-dressed and attractive um she was
00:12:57 well-dressed and attractive um she was well-dressed and by I think even was was pleased to sort of present herself as attractive so I think that's accurate yeah it's not the same as saying I found her attractive well that was going to be my next question did you or did you not find her attractive um no um but I but
00:13:13 find her attractive um no um but I but she did stand out um in in the way that she dressed very smartly very bubbly effervescent and was clearly took a lot of pride in her
00:13:28 of pride in her appearance if we take that down uh please and go back to her witness statement you ucpi 0
00:13:36 37534 paragraph 2.5 please page two at the bottom she describes that at a London Animal Action meeting around 1995 when
00:13:51 Animal Action meeting around 1995 when she would have been around 25 years old you asked her out did you ask Gretchen out on a date uh no I've never asked her out on a date or anyway
00:14:04 out on a date or anyway yes right she goes on to describe over the page please paragraphs 2.7 and
00:14:18 2.8 that you picked her up in your van at her parents house in North London you drove her to Brighton she recalls buying a t-shirt especially for the date with the words Rage Against the Cage
00:14:29 Rage Against the Cage on it she recalls you asking lots of
00:14:41 on it she recalls you asking lots of questions about what type of music she liked what type of food she liked she recalls you saying you were a strict vegan and asking her about her activism did you uh Drive Gretchen in your van to Brighton from her parents
00:14:52 your van to Brighton from her parents address in North London um so I I I'm going to dispute the geography so this is where um it gets a bit confused um
00:15:04 is where um it gets a bit confused um maybe on my part as well but um I don't specifically remember um going to Brighton um just with Gretchen and picking her up from her house what I do remember um is a different
00:15:19 remember um is a different Journey um I say unless over the period of time I've got this completely wrong um because it was certainly someone um and I was fairly certain that um um in her interest in where I worked um and what I did um I'd
00:15:36 worked um and what I did um I'd mention uh the type of Journey that she said you wanted to be a part of um and this which sounded quite ludicrous um of coming to see where I worked um but in
00:15:48 coming to see where I worked um but in the context of this regular run I did um from starting off just south of London coming back through London and going up to northwes on regular delivery runs to the factory um so that was someone I
00:16:00 the factory um so that was someone I thought that was her um and as ludicrous as that sounds because it's a deadly deadly dull Journey on motorways it was again um yeah someone sort of well does
00:16:18 again um yeah someone sort of well does he really work there um and because she was close to George you know that sort of being part of that due diligence I didn't really care whether it was or whether it wasn't um if you really do
00:16:29 whether it wasn't um if you really do want to come you can but it's it's just going to be so dull um so that's where that's where this story for me is in this particular geography um unless she doesn't recall that which would be odd stroke is
00:16:40 that which would be odd stroke is denying that I I it doesn't make sense as to who else that would have been because I do remember the picking up in the morning and dropping off late at night right so you're telling us as I understand it just to summarize about a
00:16:55 understand it just to summarize about a recollection of an occasion on which you drove gretan or you took Gretchen along with you on a drive to North Wales um yeah well specifically um shsh um yeah so so had I um had I not seen
00:17:10 yeah so so had I um had I not seen this um this um Gretchen statement and the open question have been yeah have you ever um uh gone for a trip during the day um in which um you travel with
00:17:21 the day um in which um you travel with Gretchen I would have gone for the from memory uh what I am now talking about um and so the the brighten thing just it
00:17:32 and so the the brighten thing just it just doesn't I mean we're only talking geography in a way at the moment um I'm not disputing that um there was a day in
00:17:44 not disputing that um there was a day in which there was a journey with me um and Gretchen um which involved um picking her up at the beginning of the day um and dropping her off at the end of the day not disputing
00:17:58 off at the end of the day not disputing that right so the question mark in your mind is over where you went on that Journey yes um and I say I mean this is
00:18:09 Journey yes um and I say I mean this is where sort of it's rather it's not even memorable it's that certainly happened with someone in my trip to North Wales um sorry shopshire wherever OS 3 is that's the Final Destination um and I
00:18:24 that's the Final Destination um and I don't specifically remember Brighton in this context I remember going to Brighton regularly um with others that's that's I am on this um on this recollection so you you did go to Brighton with some
00:18:38 Brighton with some regularity um well yes so Brighton was um relatively frequent because it was close to shorum U which is where there was a regular live exports Brighton
00:18:50 was a regular live exports Brighton itself was home to a lot of activity um as we've
00:18:54 as we've seen um conferences demonstration so I just don't recall specifically um as being p pray here you know a day out on a date I've never been on a date U with Gretchen um never sought one and
00:19:06 sought one and um but yeah if we just stick to the geography that's that's why I'm starting this um this sort of um this answer all right just putting the geography to one side and sticking with the journey that
00:19:21 side and sticking with the journey that you do remember taking with Gretchen did you invite her on the journey well so my my recollection was um and this is why it happened it was um her ask me about where I worked I
00:19:32 um her ask me about where I worked I mean to cut what must have been a fairly long series of conversations um well can I come too one day you know that would be fun I don't know if you use the word fun um well why would you want to do
00:19:45 fun um well why would you want to do that you know it's a sort of it's It's a Motorway Journey it's a sort of 450 500 Mile round trip in a pretty uncomfortable van full of stuff in the back um ultimately the answer was well yes okay um I thought it through
00:19:57 yes okay um I thought it through actually um whoever this was I say I think it was I think it was Sir but it was was this also part of you know establishing just whether I really did work there the only point in having that
00:20:08 work there the only point in having that job was to use it um in Anger as it were um and I was really doing that on a sort of fortn nightly basis so come if you really want so you you thought it
00:20:21 really want so you you thought it through in the sense of perhaps you were being tested or checked out did you think it through in any way in the sense that you were about to drive a young woman alone in your van on a long trip together and what and what and what that
00:20:36 together and what and what and what that situation presented to you well I mean I actually thought it was going to be a very awkward day um it was a super it was such an odd thing to want to do when I could understand had it really been you know somewhere more exciting and a
00:20:48 you know somewhere more exciting and a much shorter Journey um but there was a sort of yes I would like to yes I would like to um I was I must admit I was not looking
00:21:02 was I must admit I was not looking forward to it but it it seemed to me if you really want to then you know then yes um but it's yeah that's that that's that's my recollection what she sets out there in
00:21:13 recollection what she sets out there in paragraph 2.8 in terms of the nature of the conversation in the van on the journey does that ring bells uh with you from what you remember of your journey with
00:21:22 with Gretchen um it was such a long day um spent you know sort of trying to consume these smiles and then it's quite a tiring day yes um there I remember probably just small talk in a way
00:21:39 probably just small talk in a way talking about things in common um a lot of a journey especially the one on the way back was I think um
00:21:43 think um either um either her asleep or just in silence or just probably regretting ever said yes to it what about asking her about her activism and how far she would
00:21:57 about her activism and how far she would go and talking about the buzz of getting nicked and having your friends waiting for you at the police station that that nature of conversation I I mean look I'm not to not to say that didn't come up somehow um but I don't remember and I certainly I mean I wasn't even
00:22:13 certainly I mean I wasn't even particularly interested in it it was um uh more just sort of filling the time with idle idle chat um I don't recall specifically it's more likely I think
00:22:27 specifically it's more likely I think that um I think she alludes to she did all the questions and I was pretty uh pretty monic uncommunicative with my monic answers yeah I think I was a bit more expressive than that but get it just if we look at what she says on paragraph 2.9
00:22:45 please for now just focusing on this she recalls going to the George Pub in Brighton with you famous for its vegan burgers do you recall going to the George Pub in Brighton with Gretchen no I don't I really
00:23:00 I don't I really don't hurrian account is that you kissed in the
00:23:05 in the pub what do you say to that well I mean absolutely not no we didn't kiss anywhere least of all in a pub I mean it's
00:23:10 it's just yeah just just didn't happen why least of all in a pub well I don't know why I said that I mean it didn't happen because it hasn't happened um so whatever the geography is on this one uh
00:23:27 whatever the geography is on this one uh yeah that just didn't happen and kissing again at the end of the date when you got back to London any kissing on the at the end of The Journey that you do recall that you think involved Gretchen no this whole thing from even sort of the beginning of the story asking me out on a date is I
00:23:40 the story asking me out on a date is I mean it falls at the first hurdle here um I never got anywhere near even even
00:23:52 um I never got anywhere near even even in my sort of wanting to and suppressing it um asking Gretchen on a date um you know I do know to be fair to her you know she um admits to being the center of lots of
00:24:08 of lots of male attention um so if I'm going to be charitable here I you know maybe I was just caught up in the in the sort of melee or confusion of somebody else doing but when she really thinks it's through she will know absolutely if I never asked on a date um you said there in the I think in the
00:24:21 um you said there in the I think in the context of wanting to and suppressing it does it follow from that that there was in your mind an extent to which you did want to take Gretchen on a day no I actually said even had I I hadn't
00:24:34 no I actually said even had I I hadn't even got to that stage it wasn't even a therefore there could have been an inkling of that in the eyes of others and I've got to say I don't don't recall anyone else ever commenting on this or having observed it or having offered
00:24:48 having observed it or having offered support for any of this um going on um or even interest between me I mean we were so we were so very different um and our whole sort of style and demeanor and popularity elsewhere um kept her well
00:25:01 popularity elsewhere um kept her well away from any interest I might have had but
00:25:02 but didn't well her account isn't that this involved anybody else it's that she was invited by you and went with you
00:25:13 invited by you and went with you alone do you follow well I do but I mean I just I constantly come back very quickly to it um I never asked her out on a date or got anywhere near even the thought of it
00:25:31 your recollection of the journey you did take with Gretchen is it possible that you're mistaken and that it was in fact Brighton um it's
00:25:51 not but say had this brighten story not come up um and the question was did you ever spend a day together traveling um in your van this is what I would have come up with um so the brighten one I just don't recall
00:26:04 just don't recall um and if it wasn't her um on this day I drove all the way to schop and back it was someone else but um either way I I can't say for certain I was more certain of that
00:26:18 certain of that before sort of reading about the fact we might have gone in in her mind to brighten
00:26:20 brighten together I suppose the question that I'm asking you is this are you able based on what you can recall to rule out a journey with Gretchen in your van to Bri
00:26:33 um yes just the two of us yes yeah and certainly
00:26:39 certainly um uh to sort of categorically deny the description of events during that
00:26:51 day she goes on to say uh if we go please to paragraph 2.13 of her witness statement over the
00:27:01 page thank you that you continued to see each other at London Animal Action meetings and uh
00:27:14 demos uh she recalls you both being at Z's fur shop for a day of action against the fur trade when a window got broken do you recall that um vaguely um she was very present at all of these um demonstrations yes
00:27:28 at all of these um demonstrations yes absolutely an occasion on which she's uh suggesting she was bundled on by people in a citizen's arrest does that ring bells um it does vaguely and then if we could just go back up please to 2.12 just above
00:27:45 that sorry just before we do that I should have asked this the action at Z's fur shop is that likely to be the national day of action against the fur trade where you were later arrested in St John's wood or is that a different
00:27:57 St John's wood or is that a different occasion are you able to say I'm not but um spern was a regular um a regular venue for uh for demos so
00:28:07 demos so uh yeah sorry for a day of action against theer it could easily have been
00:28:20 against theer it could easily have been yes um but can't say for certain without conferring the two dates and she puts that as having taken place after the journey in your van in terms of the sequence of events does that match your recollection in terms of the sequence of events um I don't have any recollection
00:28:32 events um I don't have any recollection regardless of the geography on on on the timings at 2.2 Gretchen's evidence in her statement is that after you went on this trip together that she understood to be a date that you asked her out again
00:28:44 date that you asked her out again afterwards a few times did you ask her out again several times um I didn't ask her once never mind several times this is I mean it's
00:28:57 is I mean it's really this is um I don't know where this is from um but it couldn't be further from the truth I mean on stuff far more serious than this I've been
00:29:12 far more serious than this I've been absolutely really quite sort of open and um candid about this is just from the outset uh
00:29:21 outset uh incorrect can we have a look please at the um risk assessment document that we've looked at before ucpi 0 37227
00:29:32 it's your B1 82b
00:29:41 sir um and we looked at this document last time you gave evidence hm1 in connection with um Miss Fuller can we turn over the page uh please in this document and we have um unredacted a
00:29:56 document and we have um unredacted a section at the bottom of this page sorry at the bottom of the page of the risk assessment note so to be clear hm1 this is part of the inquiry process when you were spoken to by
00:30:08 process when you were spoken to by officers conducting a risk assessment in connection with your application for anonymity do you follow yes and what they have recorded is a list of key Associates um which
00:30:29 Associates um which included um if we look please zoom in in particular on the page with 14 at the bottom yes we can look at that text thank
00:30:31 thank you um included uh Gretchen as a key
00:30:43 associate did you did you tell the risk assessors that Gretchen was a key associate of yours um I don't remember being a key associate but was was definitely part of the scene and a prominent prominent on
00:30:59 the scene and a prominent prominent on the on on the circuit is it likely that you it was you who mentioned her real name when you spoke to the risk assessors well I'd imagine so yeah I don't remember doing that specifically um I don't remember coming up specifically with that list of names but yes I guess
00:31:16 yes I guess so in a different document if we could put that on the screen MPS 0749
00:31:21 0749 632 this is also AR rising out of the risk assessment process hm1 and we looked at this um last time could we turn turn to section
00:31:35 2.17 thank you at the bottom there and going over the page this is the list of key Associates recorded in another document from the risk assessment process and just so that you can
00:31:52 process and just so that you can see could we have the rest of the list from the second page on the screen if possible please
00:32:06 is it possible to get the fit the whole list on the screen down to number 16 i' just let hm1 to be able to see the whole
00:32:16 piece thank
00:32:28 you thanks all right hm1 so you can see in this document the list of key asso does not appear to have included Gretchen but did include Miss Fuller's
00:32:39 name so when you spoke to the risk assessor I won't go through it again you you mentioned Miss Fuller as a key associate not as someone with whom you'd had an intimate relationship were you likewise
00:32:54 relationship were you likewise mentioning Gretchen as a key associate because you had in fact shared an intimate day with her if not a relationship as such uh no no couldn't really be further from the truth why does she appear as a key
00:33:17 truth why does she appear as a key associate um are you able to assist no um but she was um she was close to George um so there was that added um element of uh you know
00:33:28 of uh you know George's additional interest in who I was and what I was doing um and the closeness that they had um being
00:33:37 linked but that explains her closeness to George what about her closeness to you well in terms of risk assessments um you him um if you like inverted commas
00:33:48 you him um if you like inverted commas poisoning her as to what he thought of me and therefore the need for um her to be on the lookout um which is what I actually thought that trip could have been partly about knowing
00:34:00 could have been partly about knowing knowing about that Association so that's that's my explanation for that
00:34:17 but her um the the totality of her witness statement suggests that this as she remembers it a date that you took her on occurred sometime around the spring of
00:34:23 1995 if she's right about the date that would have been shortly after you had broken up with Miss Fuller and made an attempt to rekindle which was unsuccessful wouldn't it um well timings wise yes that works
00:34:36 it um well timings wise yes that works was there any sense in which having lost the um as if I can call it as The Shield or the the the assistance you gained from being in a relationship with Miss
00:34:49 from being in a relationship with Miss Fuller in terms of the stability of your cover you were looking for another relationship in order to fulfill the same
00:34:55 same function uh no um absolutely not and in terms of if I've got the sort of nuance to that question right um had that been
00:35:08 to that question right um had that been the case um I don't think Gretchen would have
00:35:09 have been a robust candidate for that but she was another individual another woman who was close to George and with whom a relationship
00:35:21 George and with whom a relationship might have assisted in allaying his suspicions is that fair well I mean this is um none of this none of this got anywhere near even the sort of draing
00:35:32 anywhere near even the sort of draing board in my mind of anything remotely feasible but but had it done she would have been in a similar position to Miss Fuller in that sense um no I disagree with that um but
00:35:47 sense um no I disagree with that um but it hadn't anyway could we go back to her witness statement
00:35:55 please um paragraph 2.14 page 4 it's ucpi 03753
00:36:11 for thank you a gretan says in her witness statement that she spent even more time
00:36:23 statement that she spent even more time with Christine green so hn 26 than with you and that she told Christine green about her date with you uh did you have any conversations with Christine green h26 about
00:36:42 h26 about Gretchen no did she ever approach you and ask about the status of your relationship with Gretchen no no paragraph 2.15 of the witness statement please Gretchen recalls going to your farewell do so when you withdrew do you recall
00:36:57 do so when you withdrew do you recall her being there not specifically but I'm it's absolutely possible that she was not contesting
00:37:12 that did you ever mention to your managers the prospect of or the fact of having taken Gretchen on a journey in your
00:37:17 your van I don't believe so was it the sort of thing that you would have mentioned taking a long journey like that yeah I could have done in passing
00:37:33 that yeah I could have done in passing it was um it was a real it was a bit of a non-event um in in my mind um and I say it
00:37:34 say it would would rather it hadn't have happened because it was going to feel like a very long day as well are you able to assist at all as to why Gretchen might have
00:37:51 why Gretchen might have viewed uh the journey that you took her on as a date or recall that the two of you kissed if that didn't in fact happen
00:38:03 um oh not not really without sort of um offering speculative unhelpful character assassinations I mean she was quite a drama queen and enjoyed the attention as she to be fair to her alludes to um of and was the
00:38:15 to her alludes to um of and was the subject of plenty of male attention and seemed to seemed to CAU it and be quite happy with it so you know beyond that
00:38:26 happy with it so you know beyond that I've I've got no explanation other than um it being a
00:38:33 stake were you ever in any circumstances with Gretchen in which she might have mistakenly thought that the two of you
00:38:44 mistakenly thought that the two of you had kissed so any close physical contact which might lead to a mistake no no I'm you I'm clutching at straws here um but um all all I can offer in support of my version is I don't recall anyone
00:38:57 of my version is I don't recall anyone else ever commenting on this um or even alluding to it soorry why why did you say that hm1 can you just explain no I mean I don't so in all in everything that we've
00:39:09 so in all in everything that we've discussed um which is quite a lot um this has not come up until um gression decided to serve a
00:39:21 until um gression decided to serve a witness statement so that's fine um but it does stand alone as a story which hasn't surfaced in any other um uh in any other part of our discussions up until now now um as to
00:39:32 discussions up until now now um as to someone that I might have been involved with all
00:39:34 with all right um so I'm going to move on to a different topic but uh there is a risk of a breach of a reporting restriction when I do so in terms of the documents
00:39:48 when I do so in terms of the documents that I'm going to so I've been asked um to suggest that the YouTube feed is taken down to avoid any breach that that would seem to me to be prudent
00:39:56 prudent yes
02:11:50 e e
02:12:48 um can we have on the screen your witness statement please page 37 starting paragraph 91 I just want to ask you about a few things you said in in that statement hm1 regarding um the
02:13:00 that statement hm1 regarding um the relationships between the undercover officers and the managers in the SDS so you said at paragraph 91 all the uos had a good relationship with a member of the back office staff there were some natural pairings and others
02:13:15 were some natural pairings and others that were not so natural but which each party appreciated the value of the office had a good handle on what was going on with officers private lives and how their operations were
02:13:27 how their operations were going does that reflect your own personal
02:13:28 personal experience of relationships with the back office staff yes and to what extent do you feel able to comment on the
02:13:40 do you feel able to comment on the relationships that other uos had with the back office staff um well I guess we'd have to go through
02:13:49 through them um but generally I think that generally that statement held true um for for everyone um and it it relied really on you know transparency visibility Mutual problem solving
02:14:03 visibility Mutual problem solving sharing of challenges it was in that sense you know an intimate um collaborative and mutually supporting outfit um recognizing that you know outside of
02:14:16 recognizing that you know outside of that world no one would have a clue of what anyone was talking about right could we look at the next paragraph in your statement please paragraph
02:14:28 92 um you describe support networks were both horizontal and vertical these support Arrangements were flexible not imposed from above office staff sometimes directed us toward particular
02:14:42 sometimes directed us toward particular fellow OS but the unit overall kept tabs on most things one way or another the unit and office was sufficiently sophisticated that almost anything would have come to light could I ask you to expand a little on the basis for your
02:14:53 expand a little on the basis for your assertion that the unit and office was sufficiently sophisticated that almost anything would have come to light yeah I think sort of sophisticated with a small s um I go back to that sort
02:15:09 with a small s um I go back to that sort of uh you know we met often um there was uh the need um to communicate regularly um there were um the sort of the I guess you the Pastoral element and the collaborativeness and nature of
02:15:23 collaborativeness and nature of collaboration and general conviviality at the twice weekly meetings uh you know was such that across the across the Machin its in entirety so office and field
02:15:40 entirety so office and field officers uh I'd say that um you know it was it was understood uh what was going on um what the problems were what the challenges were
02:15:47 were and the back office sorry the back office staff or the office staff uh would
02:15:56 would talk um I'm absolutely certain well this was the case about you know the risks for individuals the risk cumulatively um you know this was a part of the office
02:16:08 you know this was a part of the office had vicarious liability for everyone so they needed to know uh what they were sitting on as it were um as well as wanting to get sort of involved in um helping us all solve our own problems and then can we look also please at paragraph 93 of your Witness
02:16:25 please at paragraph 93 of your Witness statement that starts at the bottom of that page um you say as to the topics that were discussed between uos this could be anything it could be home life
02:16:37 could be anything it could be home life coming Under Suspicion being asked to do something you felt uncomfortable doing feeling there was some issue that the office would not understand feeling stressed these were deeply personal matters that one could seek some
02:16:48 matters that one could seek some understanding about only by having these conversations and so allowing for what you've described earlier about some natural pairings and some less natural pairings would you say that that there was generally a high level of
02:17:03 was generally a high level of information sharing as between officers undercover officers when it came to these sorts of issues um yes I would but I mean like in all walks of life um there are there's natural sort of gravitational pull to
02:17:14 natural sort of gravitational pull to certain combinations that we all make a judgment on that we feel more comfortable with um than there might be for others uh but as but cumulatively um you know the product of all of those
02:17:28 you know the product of all of those discussions I would say uh was uh was shared um and became known about and then at the end of that paragraph you say this there were no issues off limits with management but sometimes it was
02:17:43 with management but sometimes it was more useful to talk to another person in a similar odd situation so can I break that down when you say there were no issues off limits with management do you mean that you considered yourself able to speak to management in theory at least about any aspect of your
02:17:55 least about any aspect of your deployment um well not only felt that I did and so for example your relationship with Miss Fuller that wasn't considered by you to be off limits for discussion
02:18:06 by you to be off limits for discussion with management no it absolutely wasn't and when we were talking about that you
02:18:17 and when we were talking about that you know um I made it quite clear that um it was that was absolutely known to them and Reporting back when you were arrested you didn't feel like you were discussing something something that was off limits or that you might be sanctioned for you felt able to approach your
02:18:29 your managers um well not only able to um you wanted to as soon as I could and likewise when you were um asked to give evidence as a witness for the defense in proceedings was that something you felt
02:18:43 proceedings was that something you felt you could easily approach your managers about in my case yes in terms of what you say there sometimes it was more useful to talk to another person in a similar odd situation then is that simply indicating that sometimes you might have a preference for talking to a fellow undercover officer rather than
02:18:56 fellow undercover officer rather than not being able to talk to your managers about issues um no it wasn't distinguished between those two as two groups it was more um the sort of the human nature of um picking who one
02:19:09 human nature of um picking who one placed it you know placed one's if you like confidence in with the understanding you were you you were looking for and what you were talking
02:19:25 about or all right um paragraph 994 of your statement please we can see it on the page
02:19:40 oh thank you uh you say amongst among most uos there was profound trust in the office the prevailing view was that problems would be taken care of by managers presumably that represent certainly your view of management is
02:19:55 certainly your view of management is that fair yes to what extent do you you feel um that you're able to speak on behalf of most of the uos that you served
02:19:57 served alongside um well I'd say I'd say most in most cases that that that was true I mean whe you know whether it was
02:20:11 mean whe you know whether it was a by necessity a leap of faith or one that it was a leap of faith that was made
02:20:12 made voluntarily um but it was really the only place to go in that respect so um anyone that had problems in that respect was really going to have quite a tricky time of
02:20:23 time of it um and most of us didn't in that respect right can I ask you about one
02:20:37 respect right can I ask you about one particular example uh Peter Francis who served in part at the same time as you was he somebody who you regarded as having profound trust in the office um well he profoundly didn't have trust in the office I don't think and that was clear to you at the
02:20:48 that was clear to you at the time yes were you able based on any observations to form a view on why he didn't trust the
02:20:59 didn't trust the office
02:21:00 office [Music]
02:21:04 [Music] um well most most people had to view on this one
02:21:09 this one um I was quite angry most of the time um I sensed
02:21:20 time um I sensed um I know a perception that he wasn't uh wasn't viewed um perhaps with the same degree of respect and appreciation um by the office as others might have been um I yeah so you're asking me for my view perception um the
02:21:37 asking me for my view perception um the overriding memory um of this officer was just one in a sort of permanently angry mode all right and can I just clarify what you said a moment ago in terms of the perception that he perhaps wasn't as valued as others by
02:21:49 perhaps wasn't as valued as others by the management are you suggesting you thought that was his perception or that there was some truth in that no I no it was very much his perception um I think he
02:22:00 he saw um to his mind more interest in those working in other fields that sort of were more sort of I guess headline
02:22:14 guess headline grabbing um even in the public space never mind within SDS circles would you see any truth in a suggestion that he was not well supported by the SDS managers in your experience of of the
02:22:29 experience of of the situation um no that really that really isn't my view um you know as far as I was concerned I wasn't part of it but would have come through the same um sort of selection process of
02:22:44 same um sort of selection process of discussion as to his appetite for doing this type of work and motivation and suitability um I think you know some are asking questions about that process now uh but I in terms of you know support for and
02:23:00 I in terms of you know support for and his rejection of it it was my view that um I think you know he didn't repay kindness with kindness to put it softly could I ask you about paragraph 95 of your witness statement
02:23:17 please and you say this as in every organization in order to manage your staff well you need to have number of alliances overt and covert there were various of these networks in the SDS the coverage collectively through these
02:23:30 coverage collectively through these alliances was sufficient for most issues to be known
02:23:36 about can I ask you were particular managers in your time so just to go through them when you started it was di hn 67 if you need to check the cipher list please do yeah
02:23:53 okay thank you yes and D detective Chief Inspector hn 86 when you started and they were replaced respectively during your deployment by detective inspector Lambert and detect detective Chief Inspector Edmonson of those four
02:24:05 Edmonson of those four individuals did did you see them as having particular alliances or networks within the
02:24:20 within the SDS um no more so then you get genuinely um on you squads where sort of the the more seniors through time served um it was a sort of more comfortable relationship than the the new boys
02:24:33 arriving in terms of your um relationships with them would you have expressed yourself as in a network using
02:24:44 expressed yourself as in a network using your terminology from the statement with for example detective inspector Lambert were you close with him as as a manager um yes I was close to him as a manager and he'd um he'd been responsible for my early if you like
02:24:55 responsible for my early if you like scouting and closer to him than you were to detective inspector hm67 who was there only at the beginning of your deployment yes could we have a look please at at the paragraph of your witness statement where you uh you were
02:25:12 witness statement where you uh you were asked about managers and you address um their management it's uh page 253 paragraph 541
02:25:31 and can I ask you uh about um hn 67 uh you described he ran the back office efficiently but would not interfere in deployments I would not have burdened him with anything too difficult relating to the
02:25:41 to the field Bob Lambert had my confidence in a way
02:25:46 hm67 did not Bob had a sophisticated approach to problem solving whereas hm67 came across as nervous and highly strong we were very different
02:26:01 people and can we also look um with regard to hm67 please at paragraph 559 C on page
02:26:20 267 thank you can we look at that sub paragraph C all three parts when you gave evidence in January your answers when I asked you about hm67 were to the effect that you didn't hear
02:26:31 were to the effect that you didn't hear of anything about him fathering a child even close to your time in the SDs that you heard that through the inquiry but in your witness statement you said this I heard rumors that hn 67 had had a
02:26:46 I heard rumors that hn 67 had had a relationship with an activist Andor fathered a child in his undercover identity and that this had a affected him badly I believe that I heard these
02:26:57 him badly I believe that I heard these rumors whilst I was on the SDS but I do not know at what stage this was or who told
02:27:02 told me I never discussed the rumors with hn 67 can you clarify is your witness statement accurate when it states that you heard you believe you heard rumors about hn
02:27:19 67
02:46:17 e e
02:47:09 there must be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated during the hearing uh between 4:29 and
02:47:16 4:29 and 4:32 both minutes inclusive
02:47:30 thank you can we go back please to the witness statement of hm1 now uh page 262 uh
02:47:33 262 uh please paragraph
02:47:46 552 and can I ask you about um what you say in this paragraph about halfway or third of the way in please you say this with benefit of hindsight I would say that there was only one style of management and it was very masculine
02:47:59 management and it was very masculine which may have meant that people tended to keep a stiff upper lip rather than
02:48:08 to keep a stiff upper lip rather than showing vulnerability although I did not think it at the time I now think that a more diverse management team may have helped with welfare and Stress Management could I ask you to expand please on what you meant by the management style being very masculine
02:48:21 management style being very masculine uh well I guess a symptom you know the world's moved on and has leared about um you know stronger teams being rather better than what was around at that time so by definition it was
02:48:38 at that time so by definition it was certainly throughout my time it was all male um and most of the field was all male so with that um came to my sense you know a a style um that with
02:48:50 that with and I'm not just saying this from the 21st century agenda um you know with more diversity um could have allowed for more I don't know more more confidence
02:49:03 more I don't know more more confidence in the listening ear um approach um so it was yeah despite the fact you know Keith Edmonson um in the way described um was um you know a soft empathetic had people's confidence it was just I think my comment there is
02:49:16 was just I think my comment there is with reference to how it could have been better
02:49:20 better uh was there any sense when you described it as masculine as the management style just focusing on the managers um failing to have regard for example
02:49:31 example to in the case of relationships with women the autonomy and agency of the women involved or failing to look out for the women in those situations no I
02:49:43 for the women in those situations no I don't think it was any evidence of that at all um
02:49:50 at all um and um and even sure I'd use that term if I was writing that again um it was just a symptom was you know it was all male um uh but there was it was I don't know within that sort of one
02:50:04 know within that sort of one style lack of diversity type composition a um you know an environment which could
02:50:18 a um you know an environment which could have been improved um one of the ways it which could have been improved is among the management um a bigger a bigger range of Stu approaches I'm going to move on um time is a little tight I'm going to move on to ask you please about your knowledge of relationships between other
02:50:29 of relationships between other undercover officers and individuals with whom they associated in their undercover identities could I ask that we put on the screen please MPS 0746
02:50:41 0746 347 it's
02:50:43 347 it's b120 sir in your bundle
02:50:59 and this uh hn1 purports to be an individual profile concerning you um under an SDS contingency plan um and the first question and answer on the
02:51:14 page um is has detective Sergeant chitty so Mike chitty seen you since being deployed in the field and the answer is recorded is yes once in October 1992 did you come
02:51:30 1992 did you come across uh detective Sergeant chitty when you were deployed under cover um no not in the field can you
02:51:41 cover um no not in the field can you explain if you came across him in other circumstances in October 1992
02:51:47 um no not at the moment can you think why this document um from the time appears to recall that you had come across him in October 1992 um am I all to see a bit more of it
02:52:01 1992 um am I all to see a bit more of it yes of course I'm sorry if we could just perhaps show hm1 the top half of the document to see if that
02:52:13 assists so it's headed SDS contingency plan individual profile and then this appears and from Context the inquiry understands that that there were some threat assess assessments carried out by the SDS at a point in time when
02:52:30 the SDS at a point in time when detective Sergeant chitty was undergoing disciplinary a disciplinary process which ended in his leaving the Metropolitan Police
02:52:39 Service okay um can we can we go down a bit
02:52:57 don't recall how I was supposed to help on this I don't mean now but um even at the time uh do you it appears to represent a question and answer session with you questions and answers about possibilities that might
02:53:12 possibilities that might arise if Mr chitty's undercover role came to
02:53:16 came to light yeah so questions how would Robert Lane react um how do you think the ALF would react to news of his undercover role but the first question has has he seen you since
02:53:36 first question has has he seen you since being sorry has DS chitty seen you since being deployed in the field you your answer was yes once in October 1992
02:53:41 1992 yeah um are you asking me about that October 1992 meeting yes what it appears to say suggest that you met detective Sergeant chitty in October 1992 and I'm trying to understand if you did come across him yeah no no you and me both
02:54:06 um well I no idea whether that was at his request um or whether it was a request of the um of the office uh you know we weren't we weren't mates Associates um I think we knew of each other
02:54:19 each other um I had no idea what his relationships were with these individuals mentioned in this report so I'm struggling on this one a bit well were you aware that uh M
02:54:34 one a bit well were you aware that uh M chitty had continued or had returned to live in his cover identity years after his deployment in
02:54:45 identity years after his deployment in the 1990s yeah I became aware of that um and were you still deployed when you became aware of that I believe so this isn't I mean yes I I'm as you can see I'm struggling on this
02:54:58 as you can see I'm struggling on this um I didn't I think there was an overlap certainly did you come across him so in his undercover identity whilst you were also deployed undercover no no no did you understand that he had had a
02:55:12 you understand that he had had a relationship with a woman the inquiry is referring to as Lizzy whilst deployed and that he had returned to contact with her
02:55:27 um well I don't recall knowing that um I'm sure I became aware of it as part of the
02:55:35 the Saga did you uh know that he appeared to have retained and still to have been using some of his cover identity
02:55:43 documents as I say I think this all became this was all made known to me yeah as you know a whole sort of chitty Saga played out it wasn't yeah it didn't play prominently
02:55:57 wasn't yeah it didn't play prominently um in what I was being asked to do um so that's why I'm sort of being slightly hazy on this it was clearly I do remember it clearly being a saga and occupying lots of people's time not
02:56:13 occupying lots of people's time not mine right and this was whilst you were deployed it who who told you who made you aware of this do you remember management or some other means yeah no C certainly management I think it was quite you know obviously was viewed as quite serious um but it
02:56:24 but it was yeah it wasn't something I was I had discussions with um often at all could I ask you about um Andrew
02:56:35 all could I ask you about um Andrew koh's please you are aware aren't you that the inquiry has heard evidence from the woman we are calling Jessica please consult the cipher list if you don't know who that
02:56:54 know who that is um her evidence um is that she uh was in a relationship with Andrew Kohl's in his cover identity for um a period in 1992 going through uh to 1993 so whilst you were
02:57:08 you were deployed uh when you were asked in your W when you gave your witness statement um about your the extent of your OBS observations of her together with um Andrew Cole's you said you
02:57:20 with um Andrew Cole's you said you couldn't remember her face and you didn't know if you ever saw them together um since then the inquiry has shown you photographs that Jessica
02:57:32 shown you photographs that Jessica provided to the inquiry of her in 1993 so her appearance at about that time does that jog your memory at all as to whether you saw her together with Andrew Kohl's um I don't recall seeing them together um
02:57:44 together um but you know are sort of um paths um and being present um in each other's company wasn't that frequent but on
02:57:59 frequent but on occasion did your path cross with the paths of Andrew Kohl's and
02:58:10 paths of Andrew Kohl's and Jessica does it's not a stand out for me no whether or not it stood out did your path cross with the paths of Andrew Kohl's and Jessica well I think at some of the big demonstrations
02:58:21 demonstrations um we would have all been there in the mix but um I don't I don't recall any association uh even under those circumstances um of them being together but it was I say it was a that was a pretty distant world so it wouldn't have probably spotted it even if they were
02:58:33 probably spotted it even if they were you also said in your witness statement I knew he was close to her but I did not know they were anything other than
02:58:46 know they were anything other than friends how did you come to know that Andrew CLS was close to Jessica um well I think um presumably he was um he was reporting on her how would you have known that at the
02:59:01 known that at the time um well through discussion and um among the group as to what we collectively knew as as an organization when being asked about individuals the group of undercover
02:59:16 individuals the group of undercover officers you mean yes yes do you recall him discussing her at meetings um not specifically no um but then I don't recall him specifically talking about
02:59:29 recall him specifically talking about um anyone in particular um apart from a couple of Close Associates who weren't women so what was the basis for saying that you knew he was close to her um well on the on the occasions that she came up um as a named
02:59:43 she came up um as a named individual um on a demonstration or at an event um it was clear that um he was able to answer those questions what questions well was this person present
03:00:00 questions well was this person present um what was um that sort of the sort of thing I was I was doing with others um but it it wasn't um I say this is as close as I can get uh to any
03:00:09 uh to any knowledge um of his um Association
03:00:18 friendship did you hear anything at all from Mr Kohl's or from anyone else that gave you any indication that
03:00:32 else that gave you any indication that the two of them were more than friends I didn't know at any stage before this inquiry
03:00:39 um no I don't I don't think so are you aware of any information at all which could assist the chairman in determining whether Jessica's evidence is truthful when she says that she was in a
03:00:50 when she says that she was in a relationship with Mr Kohl's or whether Mr Kohl's is being truthful when he says that they were not um I'm unable to comment on either
03:01:01 comment on either um not aware of any detail from mixing in uh some of the same groups and with some of the same individuals that might assist not not with regards to these two individuals know in the first half of
03:01:19 individuals know in the first half of 1992 when your deployment was commen ing did you attend with some regularity meetings of the London boots Action Group yes and on at some of those meetings at least Mr Kohl's was also present wasn't he yes and Jessica was
03:01:32 present wasn't he yes and Jessica was also present on occasion wasn't she I believe so Mr kohls's evidence is that
03:01:44 believe so Mr kohls's evidence is that he drove people back to her East London address after meetings do you remember him doing
03:01:45 him doing that um no I mean I don't remember him specifically driving named individuals um we would have gone our separate ways
03:01:57 um we would have gone our separate ways do you remember seeing him with Jessica at those meetings of the London boots Action Group well there was they were quite relatively small group so yes I mean I remember seeing them there in as
03:02:10 mean I remember seeing them there in as much as I remember seeing any other two individuals
03:02:18 there you mixed in the same circles with Mr Kohl's to the extent that you consider he would have seen you together with Liz Fuller is that right yes are you quite sure you didn't see him together with
03:02:30 together with Jessica um I didn't in this sense um look I'd be more than happy to have said if I did um I just
03:02:48 didn't can I ask you about some officers whose deployments will be considered by CH three of this inquiry please um hn 26 uh you overlapped together deployed into the animal rights
03:02:59 into the animal rights field the inquiry has heard some evidence that she formed a relationship with an activist referred to sometimes by the name Thomas Frampton and sometimes by the nickname Joe in the
03:03:11 sometimes by the nickname Joe in the reporting Joe TCH although we've been told that should be tax by activists who knew him
03:03:19 knew him were you aware of her relationship uh Beyond a friendship with Thomas Frampton or Joe Tex or tax uh became aware of it during your
03:03:30 became aware of it during your deployment um so certainly um the friendship and close Association uh was was widely known about and what about the fact that it was an intimate
03:03:44 the fact that it was an intimate relationship um I I wasn't aware that specific physically um at the time of my deployment and afterwards well afterwards it became I
03:04:03 afterwards well afterwards it became I mean it became known and when you say it became known do you mean amongst other undercover officers by management um well I think by by everyone everyone within the SDS yes I mean it became it all got a
03:04:16 SDS yes I mean it became it all got a bit difficult is it what do you mean by that um
03:04:22 well I mean how much am I allowed to talk about this well did you know for example that
03:04:35 this well did you know for example that there came a time uh when the management management team discovered that she was in a relationship with him um
03:04:43 him um I I don't know when they became aware um I was fairly certain that most of sort of the the story at this stage broke after after I'd moved on so you leave the field at the end of
03:04:59 field at the end of 1996 how long afterwards as far as you can recall were management aware that she was in a relationship um I I don't know I I don't know as to the of when they became
03:05:10 know as to the of when they became aware sorry no I we didn't I we didn't discuss it personally the two of us while I was in the field right and any doubt in your mind as to whether or not she was in a relationship with this individual during the course of her own
03:05:28 individual during the course of her own deployment so the relationship commenced while she was deployed so all I um all all I saw was a close uh close friendship close Association which um
03:05:41 friendship close Association which um you know she didn't shy away from and to my mind um I think in the way that she explained it was um he was you know a you useful um if you like reference protection
03:05:59 protection reassurance um to be around in otherwise confrontational circumstances right the point at which it became known as you put it that she was in an intimate relationship with him was that why she was still deployed undercover well I that didn't become known to me um uh sorry that's not what you asked
03:06:14 sorry that's not what you asked uh I lose track of the exact chronology it's quite a um for anyone even on the detail of this it's quite a complicated story um all I know
03:06:28 all I know is um during my time when we were both deployed um for me it was only to my knowledge um a close friendship can we have a look at a document please mps247 547 it's
03:06:51 b177 it's a file note hm1 with Bob Lambert's initials at the end dating from March
03:07:00 1988 um I'm going to summarize bits of it in the interests of time but the first sentence states that roadbridge which is a reference to hn 26 has
03:07:12 which is a reference to hn 26 has identified a london-based Alf cell with potential to commit serious crime the leader of the cell is Joe Tex if we skip down there's a paragraph starting hn1 hn1 reports that Tex was known to have taken part in at least two
03:07:27 known to have taken part in at least two arson attacks on hump related Targets in the home counties in 9495 hm1 has been able to discuss Tex's track record with RB roadbridge at some
03:07:38 track record with RB roadbridge at some length so it appears by 1998 you were in contact with hn 26 even though you were no longer deployed is that fair yeah um I think I ENT in
03:07:54 I think I ENT in role it goes on in recent weeks text has taken RB into his confidence and this has opened up a rich seam of intelligence it has also of course placed an increased burden on RB and she
03:08:05 placed an increased burden on RB and she is now committed to her cover role to an unprecedented
03:08:13 extent if we turn over please to page uh two of the document
03:08:25 uh we see uh one two 3 the third main fourth paragraph down RB has made a significant breakthrough after a long period of frustration that it comes so soon after the writer's more downbeat assessment of her ability to provide high-grade Alf
03:08:37 her ability to provide high-grade Alf intelligence is a lesson to him and a tribute to arb's willingness to explore all options
03:08:56 these references to her committing herself to her cover roll to an unprecedented extent at making a significant breakthrough are those euphemisms for
03:09:08 breakthrough are those euphemisms for knowledge that she had entered into an intimate relationship with Joe Tex or tax um I don't know did you know by this time in 19 1998 when you were in a
03:09:26 time in 19 1998 when you were in a mentoring role discussing Joe Tex with her that they were in an intimate relationship um can't say for certain the document underneath the paragraph on the screen goes on to say that in
03:09:41 to say that in April the bottom of the next paragraph in April she plans to travel with TCH and others to a weekl long animal rights gathering in Holland and this will further enhance her
03:09:55 standing again were you aware that she was traveling on weekl long trips with Joe
03:09:58 Joe Tex um don't believe
03:10:16 so so can't assist as to whether by 1998 it was generally known that she was in a relationship with him well not not to me personally me um yes whether it's known to others in the field at the time the management I don't know I mean by that time uh you know I was largely divorced
03:10:34 time uh you know I was largely divorced from it but your evidence earlier stands does it it became known so it became known widely that she was in that relationship um well yeah factually that is the
03:10:45 is the case can I ask you please about James or Jim boiling
03:10:53 um he uh state has stated in his witness statement to the inquiry I took this through you uh I went through this with you last time that he was aware of your relationship with Miss
03:11:04 relationship with Miss Fuller he has also told the inquiry that you were aware that he was in a relationship with a woman that the inquiry is calling Monica that relationship took place in
03:11:18 1997 do you recall becoming aware that Mr boiling was in a relationship in 1997 at some stage I did I think because he told
03:11:33 me did you form the view that the managers of the SDS were aware that he had formed a relationship with a woman in his undercover
03:11:45 in his undercover identity yeah I assume to recall that um he made it clear that they did know so through him telling you you got the impression that the management knew that's my recollection yes do you know which managers um no I don't
03:12:04 managers um no I don't recall did you ever speak to any of the SDS management about the fact that he had told you he was in a relationship um no because they he appeared to be having that conversation already with
03:12:12 them Mark Jenner
03:12:23 can we have on the screen please page 274 of your witness statement paragraph 559
03:12:40 n and the whole of those three sub paragraphs please you told The Inquirer in your witness statement that you were aware of him having a sexual relationship whilst deployed he was a robust individual and very direct sub
03:12:56 robust individual and very direct sub paragraph 2 you did not know who it was that he was in a relationship with and you cannot recall if you thought it was a Target or someone else he'd come across in his work he did not seem concerned about it with me he spoke
03:13:17 concerned about it with me he spoke about it with the same intonation as his cover job as part of his life and there was nothing more to talk about it was mentioned once or twice at most I reacted
03:13:24 reacted non-judgmentally andless it be subsumed into what he wanted to talk about does that represent the extent of your knowledge of Mark Jenner Jenner's relationship or
03:13:36 relationship or relationships U yes it does do you know to what extent that relationship was known about by other undercover officers uh no but in his very direct way he made it clear that the office
03:13:47 way he made it clear that the office probably knew about it as well so from him you got the impression that the managers of the SDS knew that he was having this relationship yes did he say that to you explicitly or did you infer it from what he was
03:13:58 it from what he was saying um I can't remember it was probably somewhere between the two um his directness was
03:14:06 was um likely to have been as equally clear with the someone in the management as he had been with me it wasn't telling me in confidence or looking for reassurance
03:14:19 confidence or looking for reassurance that if he told me therefore he told the system did you ever discuss this with managers that you had learned that he was having a relationship uh
03:14:30 relationship uh no when you say in your witness statement you reacted non-judgmentally why did you not advise him or guard to guard against a relationship of that
03:14:41 relationship of that nature um well it was a bit too late by by by then and this was for him and the office um to to work
03:14:59 through can we have up on the screen just briefly please MPS 05 27792 at page uh
03:15:08 4 and um just down at paragraph 4.4
03:15:24 this is a document from May 1997 hm1 so after you were out of the field touchy subject is a name given to uh Mr Jenner and this is uh Bob Lambert
03:15:35 Jenner and this is uh Bob Lambert writing or certainly signing off um on Friday the 16th of May touchy subject met with former field officer detective Sergeant hm1 with whom he enjoys a close working uh rapport
03:15:49 sorry so it's your
03:15:55 b174 did you uh enjoy a close working rapport with Mark Jenner in May
03:16:07 rapport with Mark Jenner in May 1997 yeah we did in general yeah did you learn any more detail about the nature of the relationship he had whilst undercover so for example did you learn that he came to live together with the person he was in the relationship with
03:16:21 relationship with um at some stage I came to know that yes and as far as you can assist to the best of your ability did the SDS management seem to know that he was living together with a woman in a
03:16:35 was living together with a woman in a relationship yes absolutely U there was nothing he told me that he hadn't already made known so it was there was no sort of please don't tell anyone and I haven't even told them yet myself it was
03:16:48 was never um I think you know that wouldn't have been a burden um he'd have been happy to put on me can we have on the screen please MPS 0727
03:16:56 0727 448 it's the notes uh from your conversation with operation Hearn in 2014 so it's A2 in your bundle can we turn please to page
03:17:14 nine and the um section on Mark Jenner Under The Heading Mark Jenner please
03:17:28 when you spoke to operation Hearn they recorded that you said this I was not really aware of Mark's deployment or relationship as our worlds did not merge he was a good guy as hard as Nails I have subsequently become aware of the issue through the
03:17:41 issue through the media based on the evidence you've just given that's not accurate is it well um so not really aware I mean sort technically doesn't exclude a bit of knowledge of it but it wasn't
03:17:53 of knowledge of it but it wasn't something that we spoke about you were you were aware that he was living together with a woman in a relationship that's that's awareness isn't it um yeah but it was yeah it was as it was something the office already knew about
03:18:11 something the office already knew about it was we didn't talk about it so um not aware of the detail the circumstances um but yeah that's um I have subsequently become aware of the issue through the media gives the impression that that's where your source of knowledge has come from doesn't
03:18:24 knowledge has come from doesn't it um yes and that's not accurate is it your source of knowledge was directly from Mark Jenner um yeah it became yeah I mean there's more there's more to those two lines absolutely were you
03:18:37 those two lines absolutely were you attempting to obscure the reality when you spoke to operation Hearn uh no not in the slightest it was just through out scant knowledge of the detail birth sort of semi- aware that this was going on because he'd mentioned
03:18:52 this was going on because he'd mentioned it um but the office was aware so it was not something I was remotely concerned with or involved with why couldn't you tell operation Herm what you've told us today that you knew he was in a
03:19:04 today that you knew he was in a relationship that he told you and that you knew that they were living together um well I don't know if I did know that they were living together at
03:19:15 know that they were living together at that stage um all I was aware of but not the detail of was him being in a relationship with someone As I understood your evidence a few moments ago you did know that he was living together with the woman and you knew that the management of the SDS knew
03:19:29 knew that the management of the SDS knew so it gave the impression your knowledge of them living together was contemporaneous with the life of the of Mr Jenner's deployment yeah so you did know in 2014
03:19:44 deployment yeah so you did know in 2014 when you spoke to operation Hearn didn't you um I don't know specifically what I knew then which I subsequently learned but yeah I accept that those two sentences could have been elaborated on but
03:19:52 but that's not I can't add anything to that were you trying not to get your fellow officer Mar Jenner into trouble um Well I this was nothing to do with me um so you know go and speak to Mark Jenner sort of thing um you're asking me about me not you sorry um but
03:20:10 asking me about me not you sorry um but during the H um uh I've got enough on my plate that you ask me about uh I've got Scamp knowledge of this uh you know speak to him sort of demeanor
03:20:22 demeanor right James Thompson you mentored him didn't
03:20:23 didn't you
03:20:33 yes what did you know of his cover employment did you know he worked in the film
03:20:35 film industry yes was there ever any suggestion that he was spending too much time on his cover employment and not enough time on his undercover deployment
03:20:56 um I didn't I didn't have any monitoring or um involvement in in paying attention to that aspect of his uh his operation did it I had no view on that that's what I'm that's what I'm saying okay did it come to your attention that others took
03:21:09 come to your attention that others took the view that he may have been spending more time on his cover employment than on his deployment so at some stage it came to my attention um that all was not as it appeared were you aware of him entering into relationships whilst in his cover
03:21:26 identity uh not at the time we overlapped what about subsequently whilst he remained on the
03:21:38 whilst he remained on the SDS can't remember the chronology um but yes this was a um someone else that became part of a
03:21:45 story sorry what do you mean someone else who became part of the story did you know whilst he was still deployed that he was entering into relationships and his cover identity Intimate
03:21:58 and his cover identity Intimate Relationships I don't think I did while he was deployed no if we have a look please at MPS 0719 806 your b181
03:22:16 sir this is uh dated the 29th of May 20 2 signed off by detective inspector hm 58 please consult the cipher list if you want to know who that is okay thank you yes right and it is recording uh a
03:22:40 yes right and it is recording uh a meeting between you and hm 58 to discuss magenta triangle's current situation magenta triangle refers to Mr Thompson
03:22:45 Thompson yes and I want to ask you uh in particular
03:22:52 um about uh sorry one moment yes the fourth paragraph beginning Mt also told
03:23:03 fourth paragraph beginning Mt also told him so this is you reporting back to hm 58 that Mr Thompson also told you that he believed that most of the current suspicions about his operation stemmed from SDS management disapproval of field officers becoming involved in romantic
03:23:17 officers becoming involved in romantic relationships during the course of their operation according to hm1 Mr Thompson did not go into any more detail was it
03:23:30 did not go into any more detail was it not clear to you from the conversation that you had in 2002 with Mr Thompson that he was engaging in romantic relationships during the course of his deployment um yeah I think so yeah I
03:23:41 deployment um yeah I think so yeah I think it was um that appeared to be the case yes
03:23:51 when you gave your witness statement to the inquiry you said that you were not aware of him having relationships should we disregard that in favor of your answer just now I just can't remember the chronology when I became aware I mean
03:24:02 became aware I mean the you know the the unhappy ending for this officer is is is far more involved than just this particular s just trying to get at
03:24:18 this particular s just trying to get at the state of knowledge and the timing do you agree that it seems in fact by 2002 you were aware and the SDS management were aware that he was involving himself in romantic relationships in his during his deployment it's quite possible
03:24:37 his deployment it's quite possible Yes you heard also did you of attempt an attempt by him to obtain cover identity documents without authorization yes did you know about his use of those documents to facilitate travel
03:24:52 documents to facilitate travel abroad uh yeah I believe so yeah and did you know that at the time that it was happening or subsequently no subsequently and how much later before the inquiry commenced um I can't remember the
03:25:03 commenced um I can't remember the timings um this was when I was it was
03:25:14 timings um this was when I was it was clear that he was in a in a big mess um and I was off of the I think i' off of the go and speak to him um see how he is and where where is he um like there was something to do with I ter it some is sketchy here something to
03:25:26 ter it some is sketchy here something to do with where he was in the process that he either wasn't cooperating with um stroke concerns for his welfare so during the course of his deployment coming to an end would that be a
03:25:44 coming to an end would that be a fair uh way to to identify the point in time when you became aware yeah could well be yeah could well be yeah and again are you able to assist as to whether the SDS management team knew about his obtaining of cover identity
03:25:55 about his obtaining of cover identity documents and his attempts to use them or his use of them at the time that you became aware yeah I mean it appeared to me they were all over it and that um he was in um a serious bit of
03:26:16 bother can I ask you whilst we're on this
03:26:17 this document um hm 58 has recorded um sorry the bit that was on the screen can we keep that please I reassured
03:26:32 please I reassured hm1 that this aspect did not form any part of our suspicions about his operation so that seems to be hm 58 recording that they were not suspicious about romantic
03:26:47 about romantic relationships does that Accord with how you understood the
03:26:53 situation um well this is hn 58 yeah but was your what he said to me yes yeah was your it wasn't what he said to you sorry is that right um yes that's what he's reporting he said to me yes
03:27:09 what he's reporting he said to me yes looking at this the I here yes I is h58 reassuring you that this aspect I involvement in romantic relationships did not form part lot of the
03:27:20 did not form part lot of the suspicions about I guess he was reading this he's assuring me on behalf of
03:27:30 Mt but your understanding if I've not misunderstood your evidence your understanding was that the management were
03:27:43 were aware of Mr Thompson involving himself in romantic relationships yes yeah um look at this stage um this was um just one of many issues um that he needed to be concerned about I it's almost the least of the most
03:27:59 almost the least of the most problematic in the hierarchy of problems that you now appear to be confronted with but nonetheless one that the management appeared to you to be aware of yes hm 58 goes on to say I also
03:28:13 of yes hm 58 goes on to say I also reminded him appears to be a reference to you that it has been made crystal clear to generations of SDS field officers and continues to be so that romantic seexual relationships with wearies are to be avoided at all
03:28:29 wearies are to be avoided at all costs in your witness statement you say it had not been made crystal clear to you is that your evidence um yes that is my evidence yes and are you able to assist as to whether
03:28:44 and are you able to assist as to whether the individuals who you had contact with or mentored hn 26 Jim boiling Mark Jenner James Thompson whether as far as you could tell it had been made crystal clear to them that such relationships were to be
03:28:56 them that such relationships were to be avoided at all costs or did you get the impression that it wasn't regarded in that way well no as a as a statement of common sense I mean it's that's absolutely true they are to be avoided at all costs I mean don't anyone contested
03:29:08 contested that but
03:29:10 that but but four officers who deployed within the 1990s and with whom you had contact had all apparently entered into
03:29:22 had all apparently entered into relationships so do you consider that the message was getting through well um four as a percentage of the total throughput of offices um is a small
03:29:34 throughput of offices um is a small percentage and each one of those stories by the way is totally
03:29:39 different it doesn't appear does it that they were avoiding relationships at all costs no but the statement that they are to be avoided um at all costs is is a good starting night but not one that was
03:29:51 good starting night but not one that was being followed on the face of It Well by the by the vast majority it was you mentioned in your witness statement I'll just touch upon it
03:30:03 statement I'll just touch upon it briefly that there was a Christmas party for the SDS to which Partners were invited
03:30:13 invited yes and did you attend um with your wife whilst you were part of the SDS yes and likewise did other undercover officers generally attend with their spouses or their Partners yes was there any awkwardness in attending those parties given the level of knowledge that there
03:30:30 given the level of knowledge that there appears to have been about you and some of your fellow officers engaging in relationships in your cover identities uh no not during my time any concern on your part that a colleague and aware colleague might mention
03:30:47 and aware colleague might mention something to your wife in that regard no was it generally accepted that you wouldn't tell tales on each other if I can put it that way when it came to these
03:30:56 these relationships um well it would have been an odd thing to have done in a sort of Fairly convivial annual event um people had all year to do that sort of thing if they wanted to do
03:31:11 it so I'm I'm reaching what would be the final section of my questioning I can either continue um but I'm being told that I ought to pull up within the next 10 minutes to ensure there's time for a r 10 process so I wonder whether it might make sense to deal with that now
03:31:25 might make sense to deal with that now and then I can um hopefully incorporate into the last section whichever course you prefer to do I think that might be sensible given the hour and how long is required for the rule 10
03:31:46 process yeah yeah I think 20 minutes sir yes very wel thank you all
03:32:14 right
03:35:44 e e