HN1 "Matt Rayner" - Activist Suspicions and Management Failures

Full transcript

00:04:28 e e

00:05:22 good morning everybody uh the hearing today is going to begin by being live streamed those with electronic devices May uh report what they may have heard uh in the hearing room uh but only 10

00:05:45 uh in the hearing room uh but only 10 minutes uh after the event that they are describing devices may not be used uh for the purpose of recording part of this morning's proceedings uh will be uh not broadcast by

00:05:57 not broadcast by uh live link instead uh uh uh it will be transmitted to those who have registered on the

00:06:09 on the webinar uh that part of the proceedings is subject to a reporting restriction order uh the terms of it I think have been read out uh anyone in any doubt

00:06:22 been read out uh anyone in any doubt about what they may report uh should ask a member of the inquiry staff this afternoon it is likely we will go into a private session uh when there will be no broadcasting of proceedings uh by either

00:06:40 broadcasting of proceedings uh by either means yes thank you sir hm1 I'm going to ask you some questions to begin with this morning about um the individual that the inquiry is calling George who you can check the cipher list for if you're unsure who that is um his

00:06:56 you're unsure who that is um his suspicions and in particular the laden Street uh campaign the laden Street slaughter house campaign could we have a look please first of all at a report MPS

00:07:09 07430 it's a report of the 13th of January of 1993 and it reports on a monthly meeting of the London boots Action

00:07:27 of the London boots Action Group um it doesn't bear your identifier on the face of this report hm1 uh so that you understand the inquiry considers has has considered to date at least that this is likely to be either

00:07:38 least that this is likely to be either your reporting or reporting from Andrew koh's could we have a look at the body of the report

00:07:43 please um and paragraph uh

00:07:48 four it's c67 sir sorry C7

00:08:06 paragraph four reads as follows George um expressed concern that details of these pickets were being leaked in advance to both boots security staff and the police he went on to claim that he

00:08:18 the police he went on to claim that he suspected at least one person present at the meeting of being the source of such leaks and threatened to expose that person to prevent further leaks however he did not identify this person sorry before I go on I think I said the report was 199 3 but it's 1992 so it's very

00:08:38 was 199 3 but it's 1992 so it's very early on um in your deployment I've got the wrong Daye 1th of March 1992 I'm sorry so very early on in your deployment within a couple of months of it formally commencing hm1 do you recall being present at a meeting of the London boots Action Group uh when George

00:08:49 boots Action Group uh when George expressed these concerns and suggested in particular that he thought somebody present at the meeting might be the

00:09:01 present at the meeting might be the source of the leaks yeah that does sound familiar so you you were aware by March of

00:09:02 of 1992 um that George was suspicious that there was somebody providing information to the police within London boots Action Group yes do you remember whether at

00:09:13 Group yes do you remember whether at that meeting you were conscious that that he might be suspicious of you in particular um no not at that time there were enough newcomers I think to

00:09:29 to um for me to believe otherwise and sitting at a meeting here hearing somebody suggest that there were suspicions that there was somebody informing the police within the group do you remember how you felt about about being in that

00:09:40 being in that situation um yeah it was more or less the beginning of um I think a constant reminder um that you know you woke up

00:09:58 reminder um that you know you woke up and went to bed with um that sort of um suspicion of a suspicion every day um it's quite um yeah it's it's quite a moment especially when um yeah you know that it could be you can we take that report down now

00:10:10 you can we take that report down now please and have a look at a document we looked at this briefly um for another purpose earlier on it's MPS 07461 168 it's your b19 sir and hm1 this is a briefing note written by the

00:10:25 is a briefing note written by the managers hn 86 um on the face of it and we see on page one um the date the 29th of June 1992 so a

00:10:38 um the date the 29th of June 1992 so a few months after the London boots action group meeting that we've just uh been looking

00:10:40 looking at and if we look please at the first two paragraphs uh of this briefing note if we could zoom in on

00:10:52 if we could zoom in on those uh it begins Andy Kohl's mentioned again that the suspicions regarding hn1 had been raised by his group George Etc Jeff Shephard has also also has been

00:11:05 Jeff Shephard has also also has been making inquiries they seem to be on the same theme I.E a journalist they also seem to think his bleep is too expensive a model for his occupation this in fact is not the case but it is the perception

00:11:18 is not the case but it is the perception that is damaging they seem to think some sort of expose will occur probably against George there is still doubt in their minds and he has to persevere whether or not he has withdrawn in the

00:11:30 whether or not he has withdrawn in the long term this is because we do not wish to compound any suspicion by a sudden

00:11:39 exit were you aware that not only George but Jeff Shephard were making was making inquiries about you in the first half of 1992 um I don't remember that not did Andrew Kohl's tell you the information

00:11:51 Andrew Kohl's tell you the information that is recorded in the first paragraph there no how do you feel about the fact that he didn't speak to you directly about it

00:12:04 about it it um not the sort of thing I'd have done and why not um I think if a if a colleague of mine um had come under suspicion um and I was privy to it I'd find a way of

00:12:18 I was privy to it I'd find a way of telling them directly and what would be your purpose in telling them well professional professional loyalty for one thing and duty of care the

00:12:31 the other could we look at the uh rest of this page

00:12:39 please can we zoom in so that it's easier for the witness to read please on the second the bottom half thank

00:12:45 thank you I've asked you some questions about the paragraph with the underlining about having to win their confidence through

00:12:57 having to win their confidence through some illegal act I want to ask you now about what's below that action number one hm1 is not to be told at present disclosure may make him give himself away and damage his

00:13:16 confidence is it was that action excuse me followed in that you were not told in June 1992 that Andrew Kohl's had reported

00:13:17 reported suspicions um yeah that's as I recall yeah I wasn't told and how do you feel about the decision by the managers on the face of it hn 86 possibly in

00:13:28 the face of it hn 86 possibly in conjunction with hn 67 not to tell you

00:13:39 conjunction with hn 67 not to tell you what Andrew Kohl's had told them I take a very dim view of it and can you just explain why that's your view I think it's

00:13:40 it's unprofessional um I think it uhrs a lack of trust um across the unit um I think it indicates

00:13:54 unit um I think it indicates um um don't know what I think really um other than just general lack of professionalism and some attempt to to I guess create um a sense of self-importance

00:14:06 create um a sense of self-importance that this is known to the more senior person in the field I take a I I take a very dim view of this um I will make come I will not attempt to conceal that is there any Merit in the

00:14:18 that is there any Merit in the suggestion there that if they had disclosed to you that there were these suspicions it may have damaged your confidence or caused you to give

00:14:31 confidence or caused you to give yourself away in some other fashion well I mean that's not how I view it um if that was the assessment um I should have been sent anywhere near any part of this

00:14:44 operation uh the uh second action point is that hn 67 was to increase supervision discreetly extra debriefings Etc under the guise of further

00:14:57 Etc under the guise of further deployment SL review within his field and then a handwritten annotation suggests that a report uh there would be a report by the 26th of July so a month later or so for

00:15:08 of July so a month later or so for review by the 31st of July uh did you become aware looking back uh of U additional debriefings or additional discussions with hn 67 no I have no idea what that's a reference to could we look

00:15:22 what that's a reference to could we look at the Lessons Learned section please at the bottom of the page uh lessons to be learned number one says this it appears hm1 lied about his

00:15:33 says this it appears hm1 lied about his experience of having attended hunt Saabs before when it was obvious he had no experience and did not know what to do poor

00:15:39 poor preparation had you lied I by inference to activists about having experience of hunt Saabs before when you were

00:15:52 hunt Saabs before when you were inexperienced in relation to them no I mean I didn't like it was blatantly obvious i' had no experience as soon as I turned up but um um I was I was a newcomer to the seen and said as much have you any idea where the the

00:16:06 have you any idea where the the suggestion that you lied about having previous experience came from no do you agree whether or not there was a lie that you had prepared poorly for your

00:16:23 your deployment yeah so there was a premature aspect to um deploying uh without a proper cover address in any other way apart from the cover address uh

00:16:40 uh no thank you um can we take uh that down now please and have on the screen 07461

00:16:45 167 uh so it's your B

00:16:51 1110 and I'm going to ask this note runs in Reverse chronological order so can we start please at page two of the document it's headed um h one threat of

00:17:05 it's headed um h one threat of exposure um and the earliest report uh in

00:17:14 in time is on is the 6th of August 1992 so uh not even two months after the note we've just been looking at um and hm67 uh Records here hm1 that he had an informal chat with you uh things within

00:17:27 informal chat with you uh things within his organization are obviously settling down and he now appears to be progressing steadily uh do you agree that by August of 1992 you were progressing steadily uh

00:17:43 steadily uh yes um the note goes on although George still does not trust hm1 Jeff Shepard has now taken hm1 under his wing and is telling other comrades that he can vouch

00:18:00 telling other comrades that he can vouch for him almost as if he is acting as hm1 Mentor within the organization did you tell hn 67 that George did not trust you but Jeff sheeper had taken you under his wing uh no I didn't I mean I didn't know that Jeff had in that

00:18:15 that Jeff had in that sense Jeff Shephard's evidence to the inquiry is is that he he hadn't he wasn't particularly Close to You by August of 1992 do you agree with that I do agree with that yes

00:18:31 have you any idea then if not from you where this suggestion that George still does not trust you but Jeff sheeper had taken you under his wing where that had

00:18:46 taken you under his wing where that had come from um not not the Jeff comment no um George didn't attempt to conceal his both uh mistrust and dislike uh to to many people of me so many people were aware of

00:18:55 aware of it the note goes on George is himself regard by other members as erratic and eccentric and it is widely thought that he is likely to receive a custodial

00:19:06 he is likely to receive a custodial sentence if convicted for the McDonald's offense we'll come back to that um later the offense itself um hm1 is confident

00:19:19 the offense itself um hm1 is confident that he is not in danger of exposure and as a result he seems to be gaining confidence he is Keen to continue developing within his field do you recall um saying yourself to hm67 or anyone in management

00:19:32 anyone in management uh these things about George

00:19:36 George um well it would be ongoing conversations about

00:19:53 about um the antagonistic relationship between uh me and him and his mistrust distrust um of me um but it was a fact that um um you some of his sort of spontaneous behaviors uh gave me the benefit of the doubt and

00:20:02 doubt and um and he didn't have the credibility I think um

00:20:04 think um to secure any sort of movement of Suspicion against me can I just ask what you mean when you say some of his spontaneous behaviors gave me the benefit of the

00:20:15 benefit of the doubt um yeah well I think this I'm looking at the words on this page um so sort of the eratic um sort of

00:20:27 sort of the eratic um sort of spontaneous Outburst um I think you know the the McDonald's incident might have been an indication of that I don't know but um you he did have a reputation for being um emotionally

00:20:41 being um emotionally volatile all right so so if I understand your evidence correctly then it were that it was that sort of characteristic of Georges that meant that you were safer from suspicion than you might have been if a more if I use the word stable reliable individual had been making

00:20:53 reliable individual had been making allegations against you yeah and that clearly was the case um others didn't share his suspicions uh which I think is ultimately how uh I was able to

00:21:05 ultimately how uh I was able to continue were you confident that you were not in danger of exposure then no I was never totally confident of

00:21:19 that did you ever give the impression to your managers that you were confident about

00:21:21 about that um well I um I would and this is what I genuinely believe that this was a permanent risk of every day of this operation every day um and um But as

00:21:35 operation every day um and um But as time went on it was clearly the case that those suspicions were not widely held by by those that were they held um I would have had serious concerns about the um second paragraph that we

00:21:49 about the um second paragraph that we can see on the screen that begins I am of the opinion um it indicates that hm67 concluded that whatever danger of exposure there had been it wasn't

00:22:00 exposure there had been it wasn't sufficient to make any change you could just carry on in your

00:22:12 deployment were you made aware at any stage that consideration was even being given to whether or not you should remain in the field at this stage um no

00:22:24 remain in the field at this stage um no I didn't no not not as STK here as that no can we zoom out please and look at the handwritten annotations at the bottom of the page

00:22:31 I so that note drafted on the face of it by hn 67 is seen by hn 86 who writes

00:22:42 by hn 67 is seen by hn 86 who writes continue monitoring and then there are um annotations the one in fact at the bottom appears to be October the one above it

00:22:48 above it September um the September annotation uh reads had a quiet summer and looking forward to commencement of sabbin and more involvement in London boots action more involvement London boots Action

00:23:01 more involvement London boots Action Group still uh I think possibly posing a good base uh for activity providing thank you a good base for activity do you recall having a conversation with hn 86 in All Around September

00:23:16 86 in All Around September 1992 assessing how you were getting on in the

00:23:20 in the field um no not not specifically but that was um yeah the general welf faring um of all of us was such that you know there was a constant how are you getting on um even even to the weekly on

00:23:37 getting on um even even to the weekly on the weekly sessions um but that was um I mean h 86's sort of approaches this was fairly binary um and this was a set of typical minutes that enabled life to go on can you explain what you mean by hn 86's approach to this was fairly

00:23:50 86's approach to this was fairly binary um well sort of you're either Under Suspicion or you're not um and if you're not um that helps with the risk assessment

00:24:04 all right I just want to ask you about one more aspect of this note um before we move on um to a later one can we look back at the whole page please and just going back to um a paragraph We Looked

00:24:17 going back to um a paragraph We Looked at earlier um George is himself regarded by other members as erratic and eccentric and it is widely thought that he is likely to receive a custodial sentence if convicted for the McDonald's offense you um reported did on the

00:24:36 offense you um reported did on the criminal proceedings involving George and so bearing that in mind could we have on the screen please MPS 0737

00:24:41 0737 515 and before I ask questions about this um we need to turn the YouTube stream off please so before I continue I'll wait

00:24:47 I'll wait for the nod

00:25:01 okay I'm told I can carry on hn1 this is a report that bears your identifier you see they're on the cover page um and if we look at

00:25:27 the

02:32:48 e e

02:33:45 thank you um could we have on the screen please MPS 0728

02:33:57 877 it's your c155 sir but some of the previous uh redactions for privacy have been lifted um with Miss Fuller's consent and so there should be a version coming on the screen which may be less

02:34:09 coming on the screen which may be less redacted than the hard copy version that you have sir

02:34:23 and can we scroll to the content thank you hm1 um a report on Miss Fuller is there a cover sheet in between thank you it Bears your identifier

02:34:38 identifier hm1 and the report itself is a report if we can look at it on Miss

02:34:49 Fuller and I will read it uh into the rec Rec at Liz Fuller's recent bout of depression culminated in a suicide bid on the night of the 6th of May 1993 when she took an overdose of

02:35:01 1993 when she took an overdose of paracetamol washed down with a great deal of whiskey at her home address the whiskey made her violently sick and she survived with no apparent ill

02:35:15 survived with no apparent ill effects she was consoled over the weekend by her friends CLA hildr and then are redactions Fuller has been cheered up by the prospect of moving into a squat with hildr and

02:35:26 moving into a squat with hildr and another thus distancing herself from her current cohabit who seems to be the root cause of her misery hm1 I I hope that if you want to

02:35:39 misery hm1 I I hope that if you want to see who appears under the reductions you should have a copy um of the report that permits you to do

02:35:50 permits you to do so um but I will if you want to stop and check please just let me know in your witness statement uh when you were asked about this report it's paragraph

02:36:03 paragraph 482 you said that either CLA Hildreth or one of the individuals redacted for privacy must have told you about Miss Fuller's uh attempt at suicide do you stick to

02:36:23 suicide do you stick to that well that's as I remember it yes is it possible that Miss Fuller herself told you what she had done um well I think eventually um she did I can't remember uh whether she was

02:36:39 did I can't remember uh whether she was likely to have been able to have told me um prior to her friends telling me she has a recollection according to her evidence of speaking to you from a phone box within 24 hours of taking the

02:36:50 box within 24 hours of taking the overdose and telling you what she had done is she right about that

02:36:59 um well I'm not contesting it um I just don't recall the sequencing of who told me first and how I got to learn about it first so you don't remember whether it was the woman with whom you entered an intimate relationship who told you about

02:37:14 intimate relationship who told you about this most personal uh detail or somebody else well I don't remember that bit the outcome of um whoever told me uh was uh I remember being concerned about it concerned about what

02:37:29 concerned about what exactly um uh what she had done and being in this

02:37:39 condition she is 100% sure she tells the inquiry that it was you who first came around to comfort her not CLA hildr or the other individuals mentioned in this report did you go around to comfort her

02:37:57 report did you go around to comfort her the next day um I certainly went around um if it was the next day um uh that's highly

02:38:01 highly possible and your purpose in going round was to offer her Comfort

02:38:18 yes uh she says that when you went around

02:38:20 around uh you checked if she was okay you talked and you asked her if she needed to go to the

02:38:33 to go to the hospital do you recall talking to her in those terms yeah that certainly been part of

02:38:42 it the detail in the report that what Miss Fuller had done was to take an overdose of paracetamol washed down with a great deal of

02:38:53 deal of whiskey is that information that you got directly from her I can't remember whether it's from her whether was from CLA or one of her

02:39:05 her whether was from CLA or one of her one of her friends is it something that you discussed when you went around to comfort

02:39:06 comfort her um I don't remember what I remember the focus was of being concerned about a condition and genuinely

02:39:18 upset well that was one Focus but another Focus appears to have been to write an intelligence report about it doesn't it hm1 yes why did you

02:39:30 doesn't it hm1 yes why did you report that Miss Fuller had attempted to take her own

02:39:35 life um it was a um significant event in someone's life indicating a state of

02:39:54 mind what did it have to do with the police that Miss Fuller had attempted to take her own life using paracetamol and whiskey so with the general police absolutely nothing um but this wasn't for dissemination to um the local police how do you know

02:40:05 how do you know that

02:40:07 that um well there would have been no customer for it well then what was the purpose in reporting it if there was no customer for it um well I think someone um who's committed to a cause um to the

02:40:20 um who's committed to a cause um to the degree that this was who tries to commit suicide is um an indicator um of a of a period of trauma and um as an

02:40:32 a of a period of trauma and um as an indicator and uh of what might happen next don't know U but it's certainly an indication of trauma is the reality that this sort of deeply personal event is of no

02:40:48 deeply personal event is of no legitimate interest to special Branch or policing of any kind um well I I'd contest um

02:40:59 kind um well I I'd contest um that an indication of a state of mind uh when it comes to reporting on subjects of Interest

02:41:10 to reporting on subjects of Interest where people are driven by uh a CA that is emotional um is irrelevant I accept that um it's um it's very private um but my the

02:41:24 um it's very private um but my the nature of my friendship was as Trust did one but it wasn't information for sharing anything them beyond the confines um of the SDS where in that report does it say Do not share this intelligence beyond the confines of the SDS uh well it doesn't um that was my faith in the system that

02:41:35 um that was my faith in the system that intelligence didn't get disseminated um other than where there was a need to do so and why did anybody within the SDS need to know about this um I thought it

02:41:52 need to know about this um I thought it indicated the state of mind um linked to a particularly traumatic set of events or whatever the event was why did anybody in the SDS need to know about that state of mind um well State of Mind is an indicator of possible intent

02:42:04 is an indicator of possible intent further down the line um what does that have to do with the SDS if if you're saying this is not for dissemination to special Branch where analysis are being made of whether certain individuals might have for example criminal or subversive

02:42:17 subversive intentions then what is the point of reporting it I think crudely um it's an indication of stability um or otherwise what is the purpose of reporting somebody's

02:42:32 purpose of reporting somebody's stability to the SDS managers I think in isolation

02:42:34 isolation um little um but as

02:42:45 um little um but as a I know I don't like this term but as a as a as a dot in an assessment um of someone's

02:42:52 someone's disposition um and mindset it's part of the building of someone's um of

02:43:03 of the building of someone's um of someone's demeanor taken to its logical conclusion that rationale would have permitted you to report just about anything on somebody who you identified

02:43:20 anything on somebody who you identified to be an animal rights activist wouldn't it um well the nature of the um operation I was a part of was very much

02:43:22 very much about the reporting on individual interest through the building of close associations um so um had that information not be of relevance uh then doubtless I would have been told about

02:43:40 doubtless I would have been told about it but it was deemed to be um uh at the time worthy of inclusion for very limited

02:43:41 limited distribution and nobody told you on receiving this information please don't

02:43:52 receiving this information please don't report this sort of private detail fa we don't need to disseminate this further up the chain yeah I'm not sure it was disseminated um but I no there was no such

02:44:05 instruction the fact that you formed close associations with individuals in order to do your job of gathering intelligence did not mean that you reported every single detail about their

02:44:17 reported every single detail about their personal or private life did it no no it was a judgment Court so finally can I ask you once more can you assist us as to why you considered this information to be relevant to

02:44:32 this information to be relevant to report um well all I can answer is with um the the state of mind and

02:44:40 fragility and the relevance of that to the SDS was what relevance of that to the SDS were for people committed to a course of

02:44:46 course of action um that required people to operate outside if you like the vast

02:44:57 operate outside if you like the vast ways of people um operating within legal Norms U might have been an indicator um of a propensity for uh possibly uh more violent action while being of uh while being a fragile

02:45:08 while being of uh while being a fragile disposition but you were quite close to her by this time weren't you you were quite a close friend of hers yes so you were able to assess weren't you by now whether or not the fact that she was

02:45:25 whether or not the fact that she was willing to cause harm to her herself was any indicator whatsoever of whether she was willing to cause harm to anybody else or to anybody else's property um well in in the moment I wasn't capable of making nor professionally was I even able to make

02:45:38 professionally was I even able to make that sort of clinical distinction and if you weren't neither were those in the SDS to whom you were reporting this information it wasn't of use to them was it um well I I maintained through my sort of previous explanation that it it was um it was

02:45:54 was um it was relevant you attended upon her when you learned of this to offer her some comfort does that indicate that you felt any genuine level of compassion for her

02:46:05 any genuine level of compassion for her by this stage um yes would doesn't only indicate that I genuinely had that and the fact that she rang you or spoke to you about these events suggests that your friendship must have been

02:46:19 that your friendship must have been relatively close by this stage doesn't it

02:46:23 yes looking again at the

02:46:32 report it identifies an individual in the very last uh sentence part of the last sentence who is described as seems to be the root cause of her misery a current cohabit Denise Fuller has given evidence

02:46:45 cohabit Denise Fuller has given evidence that she lived with a housemate who made unwanted sexual advances towards her and she was worried that he was going to sexually assault her and was taking

02:46:58 sexually assault her and was taking steps to try to stop him from getting into her

02:47:04 into her room you knew about that did you not

02:47:13 um don't know um I clearly knew something

02:47:20 something um that's the root the root cause of her misery that's alluding to something is is it not no no certainly yes um is whether specifically there was some I was aware that degree of

02:47:33 detail the report also suggests that she has been to quote cheered up by the prospect of moving into a squat with Clare Hildreth and

02:47:45 Clare Hildreth and another uh distancing herself from her current

02:47:50 current cohabit given that Miss Fuller appears to have been in a state uh which involved some fairly serious uh mental health

02:47:58 health difficulties do you consider that

02:48:09 difficulties do you consider that suggesting she was cheered up by the prospect of a move to be somewhat trivializing what was going on

02:48:11 on um not no not in the slightest

02:48:21 did you have any discussion with your managers after you reported this information about whether as a serving

02:48:32 information about whether as a serving police officer you owed this individual a particular duty of care given her fragile

02:48:43 state um no I didn't have that conversation did you ever consider your duty of care to this member of the public as a police officer who had just attempted to take her own life I

02:48:54 attempted to take her own life I considered um absolutely a duty of care um out of um the fact that I knew her and we were so-called friends um I think that's in part the relevance of um her close friendship with hildr being of

02:49:07 close friendship with hildr being of some comfort to her which is why I like that but yes absolutely I was um but I didn't consider it as any form

02:49:18 um but I didn't consider it as any form of formal duty of care it was a sort of genuine human response to someone in distress

02:49:21 distress with whom I was friends but separately from the human response did you step back and think I'm a police officer and here is a member of the public who may come to some harm what should I do as a

02:49:35 come to some harm what should I do as a police officer um no I don't think that would have added um to the level of K concern I already had but no I didn't is he answered to your question before I leave this report

02:49:48 question before I leave this report could can I ask why if you're able to assist at all as to why it's silent as to Matt rainer's part in comforting Miss

02:50:03 to Matt rainer's part in comforting Miss Fuller um I don't know I'm sorry did you report to your managers that you had done so

02:50:05 done so yes how in writing or orally um oh at or one of the meetings um or separately um but but most

02:50:16 um or separately um but but most certainly I did yes you can recall it can you yes yeah it was quite a big event who did you tell be careful with names of course yes

02:50:31 um so that I can't recall it um as to who was in the room when I told them um it could well have been at the one of the twice weekly meetings in which it would have been the DCI and um and the DS um I can't specifically remember

02:50:47 DS um I can't specifically remember who so may 1993 your di was hn 67 your DCI was h

02:50:49 DCI was h n86 the detective sergeants were detective Sergeant web or detective Sergeant McIntosh does that help um so I think um certainly um

02:51:12 h86 and you did that in a meeting just with managers or would the other undercover officers have been able to hear the information pass that was just with

02:51:27 managers all right can we take that report down that's the 11th of May 1993 and can we have up MPS 0728 879 it's your c156 sir um it's the 18th of May so 7 days

02:51:44 later I think we can go back to the usual version of this one

02:51:58 yes MPS 0728

02:52:16 879 and can we go please through the pages hm1 it Bears your identifier if we look at the body of the report please another report on Miss Fuller and it's reporting that she has moved a dress do you see that hm1 yes so within a week of

02:52:30 you see that hm1 yes so within a week of you reporting the events we've just been uh discussing she moves out of her address where Miss Fuller says she was frightened of one of her or

02:52:41 frightened of one of her or housemates her evidence is that you helped her move house did you uh I think so yes and why did you do that um it would have been a a natural

02:52:54 that um it would have been a a natural thing to do to help a friend um did you did you tell your managers that you were helping her to move after the reporting

02:53:06 helping her to move after the reporting that we've just looked at um if I did I don't recall that

02:53:18 conversation Miss Fuller recalls you going around to the address and spending the evening with her and her housemates yes it's quite possible that's quite

02:53:31 yes it's quite possible that's quite possible a and her recollection is that it was not long after this house move that the two of you moved from a friendship to an intimate and sexual relationship do you agree with that timing um more or less

02:53:55 yes so Within a small number of weeks after reporting that Miss Fuller had uh been in a state where she had contemplated and attempted to take her own life you began an intimate and sexual relationship with her well that was the sequence of in

02:54:10 her well that was the sequence of in terms of timings yes did you consider her vulnerability at the time um I to me um did not present as

02:54:25 time um I to me um did not present as anyone uh vulnerable at that stage not withstanding what you reported on the 11th of May about her actions uh correct um she presented as someone strong in control determined

02:54:44 someone strong in control determined um did your knowledge of her attempt to take her own life not influence your assessment of her at all

02:54:51 well the gap between the two events [Music]

02:54:53 [Music] um appears to be a few weeks hm1 um well whatever it was um I was in the way that um this had appeared to have been able

02:55:09 um this had appeared to have been able to deal with that and come through it um with the support of her friends um seemed to me um to be anything other than vulnerable

02:55:27 As I understood your answers as to why you reported on the suicide at all it was because it might indicate something about her State of Mind to the SDS or to the

02:55:41 the police but you seem to be suggesting that it had no influence on your assessment of her state of mind when you decided to enter a relationship with her is that what your answers amount to well all I saw is in someone all I

02:55:57 to well all I saw is in someone all I saw was someone who had come through it well

02:56:02 well um and appeared to be um well and truly through

02:56:09 it you were aware weren't you that this was not um a oneoff for Miss Fuller in the sense that she was somebody who had

02:56:24 sense that she was somebody who had suffered some trauma whilst growing up I won't go into the details um whilst we remain

02:56:28 remain streaming but she had suffered some trauma in

02:56:29 trauma in childhood and suffered chronically in terms of her mental health you knew that about her didn't you I don't think I did at any

02:56:41 at any stage um during my time in association with is no I don't remember her telling

02:56:55 with is no I don't remember her telling me that her her evidence is that she did discuss details of that with you is she wrong about that well look I apologize if I forget if I have forgotten something as significant as that um but it's I just don't remember it I I I really don't

02:57:12 really don't um are you genuinely forgetting it hm1 or are you skirting around it because you realize that it paints you in somewhat of a bad light to have selected quite

02:57:23 of a bad light to have selected quite such a vulnerable woman to form a sexual relationship with in your undercover identity um no I'm not I really haven't skirted around anything on this um and that's certainly not the case here I

02:57:36 that's certainly not the case here I genuinely uh don't recall any mention of a childhood

02:57:47 trauma could we have up on the screen please your witness statement paragraph 4 67 so page 210 at the bottom and over the

02:58:08 page this is your description in your witness statement of how your relationship with Miss Fuller came to

02:58:20 relationship with Miss Fuller came to move from a friendship to something more intimate and I want to read parts of of it back to you to refresh your memory please

02:58:21 please hm1 you say this one evening when we were alone together after an event she

02:58:33 were alone together after an event she asked me why I did not have a partner in my life I said I was happy as I was she told me she was interested in someone but she did not believe that they felt the same way from her look I believe this was a reference to me I asked her

02:58:45 this was a reference to me I asked her how she could be sure that the person in question was not interested um or something similar which gave me room to retreat if I'd got the wrong end of the stick we then had a conversation about it I cannot recall exactly what

02:58:57 about it I cannot recall exactly what was said but it became clear that I was correct about what she meant I responded positively but I cannot remember the words I used although it came as a

02:59:09 words I used although it came as a surprise and I was on the back foot as she had made the first move both my words and then us kissing would have given a clear impression of how I felt

02:59:22 given a clear impression of how I felt how is it that you're able to remember uh that

02:59:26 uh that conversation and what came of it it in that much detail hm1 um I'd say that was a fairly significant um event significant to you in what way or

02:59:45 ways um well declaring declaring one's affections for someone

02:59:55 well according to this excuse me sorry just pick up my file from the floor um according to this it wasn't a case of you declaring your affections

03:00:07 case of you declaring your affections for her but of her declaring affections for you and putting you on the back foot have I understood that correctly well I think if you read that in its entirety you just have done um

03:00:23 entirety you just have done um I think the indicators were there during that conversation allowed us both to or as part of that sort brief exchange um that declaration to be made sorry what declaration to be made

03:00:36 made sorry what declaration to be made well declaring one's affections for what actually happened as a result of that conversation Miss Fuller has said in evidence that the conversation did not happen like that at all how confident are you in your recollection of a conversation of that

03:00:55 recollection of a conversation of that nature well I'm pretty confident um but um you know if if there's a different version of that then um that sort of materially affects ultimately what happened

03:01:09 um it's um I'm I'm I'm not aware of it i' that's my recollection um I think we both agree don't we um on the same outcome I'm not asking about the outcome I'm asking about how it came about Miss Fuller's evidence is that you were quite

03:01:22 Fuller's evidence is that you were quite flirtatious and not just with her is she

03:01:35 accurate um no I no I didn't consider myself to be flirtatious at all um and especially with reference to and not with

03:01:40 with her and that far from being in a strong and stable position just a few or a handful of weeks after attempting to take her own life she was an individual with low self-esteem which would have

03:02:01 with low self-esteem which would have been apparent to you do you accept that evidence U no I saw no evidence of low esteem none at all no no not at all I almost looked up to her in her steeliness and her control and her resolve her evidence is quite the

03:02:14 resolve her evidence is quite the opposite that she in fact held you in high

03:02:15 high regard do you accept or reject that evidence um well I guess um we could have both and probably did therefore hold each other in high regard um I don't think there's a conflicting

03:02:39 accounts her evidence is that she did not uh invite you as it were in the way that you describe uh to a relationship putting you on the back foot and that it was not she who made the first

03:02:48 the first move what do you have have to say to that um all I can say is I've um from the statement you just put up that is actually how I remember it

03:03:03 happening and what do you say to her evidence that this wasn't simply after

03:03:16 evidence that this wasn't simply after you dropped her off at a meeting but an an evening when you had purposely gone round to her where she lived with her housemates um well I record it as as after a meeting um but if it was on a different occasion um I'm not going to yeah wouldn't dispute that I I don't recall

03:03:35 dispute that I I don't recall specifically um the events leading up to uh being in her house I thought it was after a meeting um but it could have been through an invitation to come around you did go round to her house otherwise than after meetings and events is that right um yes at the bottom of paragraph 4

03:03:48 yes at the bottom of paragraph 4 67 you say I do not remember if I stayed over that evening but it was fairly soon afterwards that I did start staying over and we started having

03:04:03 and we started having sex her her memory Miss Fuller's memory is that in fact you had sex for the first time on that very first evening when you uh started

03:04:17 when you uh started kissing what do you say as to whether she might be right about that um she might be right

03:04:42 so I have quite a lot further to go on this topic and it's 1 o' so yes um we'll resume now act

03:04:46 two for