Undercover officer HN1 'Matt Rayner' testifies about his deployment 1991-1996, including being assaulted by police during arrest, planned arrest operation to enhance credibility, giving evidence in court under false identity, and management decisions to withhold intelligence from local police.
00:07:28 e e
00:08:28 good morning uh part at least of today's proceedings are going to be broadcast by live stream uh voice only those with electronic devices
00:08:39 voice only those with electronic devices May uh use them to report what they have heard in the hearing room but only 10 minutes after the event that they're describing has uh elapsed uh those devices may not be used for recording yes thank you sir hm1 can you see and hear me yes I can thank you
00:08:51 you see and hear me yes I can thank you thank you could we pick up please um on the questions I was asking at the end of yesterday which were about a national day of action against the fur trade on the 16th of March of
00:09:05 the 16th of March of 1996 um and can we have a look please at your witness statement page 90 paragraph
00:09:20 225 page yes page 90 thank you
00:09:34 and in relation to the end of the day the um demonstration at in St John's Wood outside the hawkley home address um and by reference to the report that I was showing you yesterday you said this
00:09:45 was showing you yesterday you said this upon reading the report it rings a bell that privacy was arrested but my memory does not extend beyond the report toward the end of the day as I remember it the police were controlling entry to the
00:10:02 police were controlling entry to the tube station and minor scuffles uh broke out that was when I was arrested I did not see Greg Avery arrested but I presume he was arrested at the same time because we were in the same police cell does that represent um the extent of your recollection of the circumstances
00:10:14 your recollection of the circumstances um of your arrest yes and if we go you add a little bit of detail at paragraph 226 I'm just to set that
00:10:39 out uh you say um you were asked about a custody record and a briefing note which gives slightly different details about the circumstances of your arrest um and you say uh that um The Briefing note records your arrest while taking part in animal rights activity target targeted against
00:10:56 rights activity target targeted against Michael hawkley the custody record shows johnswood station as your place of arrest and you say I was arrested outside St johnswood station making my way back from hawley's home address immediately before my arrest I was
00:11:07 immediately before my arrest I was trying to get into the tube station is that accurate yes it is so your recollection is this right that there were police in the vicinity of St johnswood Tube Station yes quite a few a and you were
00:11:20 Station yes quite a few a and you were trying to get into the station to leave the area is that right yes and can you are you able to explain how a scuffle uh broke out in those circumstances
00:11:35 broke out in those circumstances um well my my memory is it was just one of those police were trying to control entry into the tube station um and some were eer to get in into the tube station quicker than the the police were allowing and in one of those sorts of
00:11:50 those sorts of confrontations um people were arrested um or I was
00:11:59 arrested why would there be a confrontation between the police if they were trying to Usher people away from from the area and those people were trying to get into the tube station to leave the area um well I think it sort of there was just there was a body of people that had come back from the nearby
00:12:10 nearby demonstration um and I think they were just trying to regulate the the people going to the tube station that's that's my recollection in terms of your
00:12:25 my recollection in terms of your personal um activities or actions that um led to your arrest are you able to assist in any more detail with what precisely you were doing that caused you to be
00:12:33 to be arrested yeah I think I just um it was a sort of minor contesting of why when this q and tempted to walk um feel like past one of the officers saying not yet um and got caught up in that
00:12:45 um and got caught up in that argument right so an argument with a police officer led to your arrest yeah it was um not ready to come in yet I'm now going to try and go in um sort of
00:13:02 now going to try and go in um sort of thing it was all over in a second it was a bit of um um wasn't a particularly sensible thing for me to do um but that's what happened forgive me in terms of the grounds for your arrest what did you understand them to be
00:13:11 be um minor uh minor breach of public order and as a result of your direct
00:13:22 order and as a result of your direct interaction with a police officer um yeah sort of confronting sort of uh attempt to control um still a sort of rather agitated group group of people could we have on the screen
00:13:35 people could we have on the screen please um a note a management note MPS 02
00:13:37 02 46208 it's your b151
00:13:49 sir and this hm1 is an SDS briefing note bearing Keith edmonson's name uh dated in the bottom leftand corner the 20th of March and in fact at the top and could we zoom in please on the uh
00:14:02 and could we zoom in please on the uh circumstances of arrest section of the
00:14:13 document and so this records that at 5:30 p.m. while taking part in animal rights activity targeted against Michael Hawley you with other like-minded activists were arrested for conduct likely to cause a breach of the pece does that ring a bell yes and it it
00:14:27 does that ring a bell yes and it it records all arrests at about that time took place after the activists had spent some time outside hawley's home address pouring a torrent of vitriolic abuse at the hated fur
00:14:39 the hated fur Trader your arrest didn't in fact arise from the events immediately outside the Hawley home address did it um no it was um the tube station's quite close um so
00:14:51 um the tube station's quite close um so it was a um it was a spillover from from that event well the tube station's about 10 or 15 minutes walk from the road
00:15:03 10 or 15 minutes walk from the road where the hotley address is isn't it um I can't remember um but it's within range of most people going back to the tube
00:15:12 stations the next paragraph records you being taken to the police station detained and released without charge at 900 p.m. again does that ring bells with you
00:15:27 you yes were you interviewed do you recall or were you simply detained and then released uh detained
00:15:34 released and you were arrested alongside other activists were you held with other
00:15:46 other activists were you held with other activists I think your statement suggest you were held with Greg Avery yes we ended up in the same uh cell for a bit and you uh I you informed the management did you of your arrest as soon as you
00:15:59 soon as you could yes if we look please at the next section of the document under
00:16:15 welfare uh this note records that you did that and it also records I was able to establish that he had suffered no unto physical injury although the arresting officers had seemed fit to remind him that his presence was unwelcome in their police area by the time I spoke with him again
00:16:35 area by the time I spoke with him again he was at home in the tender care of his wife again similar to questions I asked you
00:16:39 you yesterday was there an assumption that your wife your spouse would perform a welfare role for you in these sorts of
00:16:50 circumstances um yeah I think there was well there was a natural expectation that um that was sort of an enduring part of the relationship we had yes wasn't specifically related to this a
00:17:02 wasn't specifically related to this a and to well my question was really aimed at the expectation was it because this is a document that was drafted in the name of or by detective Chief Inspector Keith Edmonson did you feel that there
00:17:17 Keith Edmonson did you feel that there was an expectation that your wife was to offer you care and support in these sorts of
00:17:27 sorts of circumstances well I don't know what his expectation was I mean that was uh that was just something that was naturally there um I didn't even give it any consideration it was just um that was a given to what extent did you feel able or were you permitted to share with your wife what had happened to you
00:17:42 with your wife what had happened to you were you expected to keep it from her or were you permitted to share with her that you'd been arrested in your undercover role no absolutely could have shared I mean we we we shared most things um it wasn't in itself um in that in that sense um a big deal um the big
00:18:00 in that sense um a big deal um the big deal for me personally um was the uh was the injury all right I'll come to that then the this document I've just read out says that uh it was established you had suffered no unto physical injury
00:18:11 had suffered no unto physical injury although arresting officers had seen fit to remind him that his presence was unwelcome in their police area that's a euphemism isn't it you were assaulted by the officers in the van yeah so I've described what happened I say that's not my wording um so what I describe what
00:18:28 my wording um so what I describe what happened and as a result sorry G no I'm sorry to interrupt you I was going to ask if it would ass you to have your witness statement where you describe it to refresh your memory um I think I'm okay with this one um but it was after being um put in the van and taken to the police station um I remember being um
00:18:46 police station um I remember being um held um in a in a way that I suffered um what turned out to be I didn't know at the time because I thought it would just get better after a bit of a sort of um bit of a scuffle um but it turned out to be a fracture um a hairline fracture
00:18:57 be a fracture um a hairline fracture yeah of your rib I think one of your ribs yes yeah and what you describe in your witness statement was being placed head down on the floor of the van and the officer putting their knee between your shoulder blade and your spine is
00:19:08 your shoulder blade and your spine is that right yes and this was following your arrest for a breach of the piece yes how did you feel being in that
00:19:20 yes how did you feel being in that position treated like that by a fellow police
00:19:21 police officer um well I was more um the concern at the time was um how much um how much of the this and doesn't get any worse before I declare my
00:19:35 hand all right so you you were contemplating saying to the officer please stop I'm a police officer not really um but I remember thinking um I would like this to be over very
00:19:54 quickly if we turn to page two of the note
00:20:00 note please there is a further note from uh or in the name at least of detective Chief Inspector Edmonson can we zoom in on that top half of the page the whole thank
00:20:18 you and so you were spoken to um on the 25th of March at the meeting about what is described as the continuing after effects of your encounter in the police van on the way to the police station with the tsg officers who arrested him and what's recorded here is that it
00:20:30 and what's recorded here is that it seemed you'd suffered severe muscle strain to your chest and back may have cracked a rib although not definitely diagnosed but you'd taken yourself to
00:20:41 diagnosed but you'd taken yourself to hospital and had an x-ray and some tests is that right yes um a and so it took a
00:20:52 is that right yes um a and so it took a little while did it a number of days for it to be confirmed that you had in fact suffered a a hairline fracture to your rib
00:20:59 yes uh the second paragraph starting that being said um the second half of that paragraph says this this uh that he that you sorry I'll start again the first
00:21:10 you sorry I'll start again the first part of the paragraph um indicates that you asked the detective Chief Inspector if he would make a form 438 entry for you um well I I don't remember
00:21:22 you um well I I don't remember specifically asking him to do that um that would have been I think incumbent upon him to do so and could you assist us a form 438 entry is that reporting that you'd been
00:21:37 is that reporting that you'd been injured on duty um yes um from having read this that's what it is um yes absolutely and this note records um edmanson doing that to quote couched in
00:21:58 edmanson doing that to quote couched in suitable terms and a copy is on his file in the SDS um office if we have a look please at that form MPS 07 4616 2 b49
00:22:14 sir this is what we understand to be the injuries on duty form it Bears Mr edmonson's name at the
00:22:25 bottom um and if we can zoom in on the details at the top of the page first of all please
00:22:42 it records your arrest in as being in lud Road and W8 which is in fact where the demonstration took place isn't it rather than the tube station
00:22:44 station um
00:22:46 um yes and it gives as the type of Duty demonstration and then if we can look please at the uh body of what was uh
00:23:00 please at the uh body of what was uh reported on this form the handwritten thank
00:23:08 you and so what was entered on this form is that you were involved operationally in monitoring a demonstration and picket and during the course of this hostile event you were caught up in the events and injured in the ribs and back
00:23:22 events and injured in the ribs and back by the general activities and actions of those taking part that's not the truth is it well I mean it's not my language but I'd imagine well it is it's sort of a generic description without being
00:23:34 a generic description without being explicit um of the type of work I was doing um presumably because this goes on a general um uh welfare bit of one's Personnel form but you weren't injured
00:23:46 Personnel form but you weren't injured were you by the general activities and actions of those taking part in the demonstration you were injured by the actions of a police officer yes why would it not be possible simply
00:23:59 yes why would it not be possible simply to report that you had been injured by a police officer um I don't know I never wrote this and um I never saw it after it had been written did you uh feel that the injury
00:24:15 written did you uh feel that the injury to you was being taken seriously by your managers
00:24:17 managers yes did you consider that they appreciated the circumstances of your injury namely that you were already in a police van and you were subject to force from a police officer yeah we had a lot
00:24:34 from a police officer yeah we had a lot of conversations about it um with my um Associates um in the field um and with colleagues um inverted Commerce friends um who were concerned about my
00:24:46 friends um who were concerned about my injury so um from all angles people were concerned and wanted to know what I was going to do about it from with different perspectives um at the time that the force was applied to you were you
00:24:58 force was applied to you were you offering any physical resistance to your arrest
00:25:02 um well not once in a van I don't recall I just recall it being um a pretty crowded van um and being put in that position pretty quickly so on the face
00:25:17 position pretty quickly so on the face of it you had been assaulted by a fellow police officer hadn't you
00:25:28 um well um it certain it certainly felt if so um I didn't quite deserve um this sort of treatment that's for sure was any consideration given by you or your managers to your knowledge about reporting the officer so that for
00:25:40 reporting the officer so that for example disciplinary action could be taken against him um so in all the conversations I had with everyone um
00:25:51 conversations I had with everyone um actually sort of the general thrust was um I'm just going to get better thanks this is going to recover um on either side of the fence I don't want I don't want to make an issue of it it would just get horribly complicated um from the point of view of suing the police
00:26:03 the point of view of suing the police from the other side of the fence to the point of view of any sort of action um complaint against a fellow officer which I wasn't minded to do were you not concerned that there were fellow police officers out there willing to commit
00:26:21 officers out there willing to commit physical assaults on arrested activists people arrested for something as minor as a breach of the peace well I put this down to just an isolated incident at Heat of the Moment I wasn't you know I wasn't there to change the World in that respect of um it was I could have you know I could
00:26:32 it was I could have you know I could have walked away from that scuffle by just not insisting but i s of jump the queue uh so no I wasn't concerned in that respect and certainly wasn't felt that anything I did was capable of
00:26:44 that anything I did was capable of addressing that any wider issues there well what about if an internal complaint or report had been made to the tsg to try to root out this sort of behavior did you see that as any part of your
00:26:57 did you see that as any part of your role as a member of the Metropolitan Police Service um no that wasn't part of my role I mean had I been asked um I might have had a few but I mean gosh had enough on my
00:27:08 few but I mean gosh had enough on my plate was there any sense within the SDs that it was better to cover for fellow police officers even if their behavior fell below the standards expected rather than shine a light on it no actually
00:27:21 than shine a light on it no actually there was more empathy and support for what I wanted to do than I had any interest in doing the question was about whether the culture of the unit
00:27:32 culture of the unit the SDS was such that it was thought better to cover for a fellow police officer whose Behavior had fallen below expected standards rather than shine a light on it was that the culture of the unit no quite quite the opposite um it
00:27:53 unit no quite quite the opposite um it was um I would say the culture and Views and um of people selected to do that work were did not fall into that category um of putting bad conduct or
00:28:08 category um of putting bad conduct or protecting bad conduct well then why not at the very least prompt some sort of internal report so that appropriate action could be taken against the officer who had done this to you um because on balance I didn't think it merited it um you know I could have walked um I agitated the situation on
00:28:20 walked um I agitated the situation on balance um might have overstepped the mark a little bit um but sort of all fair and Love and War was a view I took and I did get better um and it wasn't outside of that sort of particular moment it was nothing particularly
00:28:33 moment it was nothing particularly egregious but I hadn't sort of brought upon myself in a way right so my to understand that you didn't consider that a police officer causing a hairline fracture to the rib of someone arrested who was not physically resisting arrest
00:28:50 who was not physically resisting arrest to be worthy of note yeah it could have been uh but on balance um when set against the huge complication um and additional process and Machinery that that would invoke um with everything else I um I had to
00:29:04 with everything else I um I had to manage um it just it just didn't Stack Up what would have been complicated about detective Chief Inspector Edmonson walking through Scotland Yard and speaking to an officer in charge of the
00:29:17 speaking to an officer in charge of the tsg to say one of your officers has just fractured the rib of one of my officers well it's never as simple as that um you know that would be the result of a
00:29:30 know that would be the result of a witness statement um and a whole sort of um uh an additional bit of Machinery with possible you repercussions uh for the officer involved I don't think he actually set out to um to do what he did
00:29:45 out to um to do what he did uh so on balance it was uh you this is an isolated incident I'm going to get through it um and I'd rather just forget about it but just um if you like enjoy the sympathy um and the empathy for what i' been through from friends in Inver
00:29:58 i' been through from friends in Inver commas on the other side of the fence and leave open the risk that some other arrested person might be assaulted in a similar way by the same officer in the
00:30:09 similar way by the same officer in the future well I don't think he set up to um cause that injury um he didn't accidentally fall on you did he it was an intentional act on your description of it I can't yeah I mean I that was a decision I made um I I can't get any
00:30:21 decision I made um I I can't get any further in this conversation I said I wasn't there to sort out the whole of the Metropolitan Police uh while deployed doing um other
00:30:34 things when you spoke to operation Hearn in
00:30:38 in 2014 and perhaps we'll get it on the screen MPS 0727
00:30:41 0727 448 page five
00:30:56 please and the section headed arrests please
00:31:08 and the the date is slightly wrong it's 1995 so I'm grateful it's your A2 sir um hm1 the second uh of these listed has the date slightly wrong it should be the 16th of March 1996 in fact um but it records an arrest for breach of the
00:31:23 records an arrest for breach of the piece and you saying this was useful as I got to spend more time with a particular Target spending a night in the CS with him augmenting my credentials in their eyes we basically became leery with the police officer and
00:31:40 became leery with the police officer and were locked up until we calmed down this helped cement my relationship with him and then uh this was a demonstration against the fur Trader Hackley on this occasion I received an injury on duty damaging my ribs that gives the impression in the
00:31:55 ribs that gives the impression in the way it's recorded by the Hearn officers that you didn't mention that the cause of your injury was an assault by a fellow police officer did you mention it to them yeah no most certainly um because and we had this a similar
00:32:07 because and we had this a similar conversation to the one we're having now as to um yeah what happened next as it were so no reticence in mentioning that to operation Hearn no no not at all no no there
00:32:22 Hearn no no not at all no no there nothing to there was nothing to be remotely reticent about
00:32:37 this um document uh Records that you spent the night in the cells with a particular Target is that accurate um well we certainly spent the most part of the evening um and we let out later on that day um by which time
00:32:50 out later on that day um by which time it was dark I recall and I did end up in a cell with um Greg Avery and you refer to that augmenting your credentials in their eyes again was that seen as a benefit of being
00:33:08 that seen as a benefit of being arrested um well there's a certain camaraderie um that is naturally established sitting in a police
00:33:15 cell and was that seen as a benefit from your
00:33:24 benefit from your arrest um yeah I mean any any camarad in establishing um of a relationship and sort of bit of credibility of having sort of um shared that front line experience um is always going to be something that's worth talking
00:33:41 about you mentioned um when you were answering my questions um earlier
00:33:44 earlier um your Associates in the field and their response to what happened to you on this occasion in terms of your injury you weren't the only SDS
00:34:01 injury you weren't the only SDS undercover officer who had suffered if I just use the term rough treatment to cover a host of of scenarios rough treatment by arresting officers were you
00:34:14 you um well I'm sure not but could you could you remind me of which one so I might know about if that's if that's what you're asking me about all right well I'll I'll ask you particularly whether you ever heard of John
00:34:25 you ever heard of John dyes being assaulted after his arrest during the ptax riot so it would be slightly before you deployed but whether you ever heard of that sorry yes when you were in the field for example yes
00:34:41 you were in the field for example yes yeah but John D um that part of John D's history um absolutely um was was talked about and was it spoken about in the sense that it there was a pattern of that sort of behavior by arresting
00:34:55 that sort of behavior by arresting officers um not in my presence I mean it was just it was history for me um from the very first moment I heard it can we have on the screen uh back on the screen please MPS
00:35:11 screen please MPS 0246 208 your b151 sir this is the clip of documents from detective Chief Inspector
00:35:17 edmanson and can we have a look again please at the welfare section
00:35:30 the second paragraph records that you were debriefed more comprehensively at the Monday afternoon meeting and it goes on as follows and indeed his colleagues were able to share in the event and
00:35:41 were able to share in the event and those other rather light-hearted points which will always emerge at such
00:35:54 debriefings does it follow from that that all of the other field officers at least those at that particular meeting would have heard of your the circumstances of your arrest uh um I think in general terms yes and was that usual that you would hear about that sort of thing if others were arrested um well it it was an
00:36:07 were arrested um well it it was an exceptionally rare occurrence um even amongst the whole Squad if you like such as it was for anyone to be arrested but it'll be it rare was it something in
00:36:21 it'll be it rare was it something in your experience that was shared amongst the squad when it happened
00:36:28 um well I've got to say from myself um I don't actually recall
00:36:35 recall um any sort of um news being made in that setting of of somebody else's arrest to my knowledge um so it was it was that rare and so that it was too rare for there to be a pattern well we
00:36:47 rare for there to be a pattern well we know for example that Andrew Kohl's was arrested at a hunt sabbin event in November of 1994 whilst you would have been deployed do you recall hearing about that um I
00:36:58 do you recall hearing about that um I don't recall it but yeah um obviously it happened I don't recall whether it was mentioned or whether it was spoken about the reference to other rather light-hearted points which will always emerge at such
00:37:10 emerge at such debriefings was your arrest treated by your fellow officers as something light-hearted um no that's a reference to me
00:37:18 to me um sort of making light of an event I wanted to make light of within a sort of comfortable space uh it's just sort of
00:37:31 comfortable space uh it's just sort of what I was alluded to earlier you know I could have walked away um you know why didn't I um and um you these things happen uh that was a sort of light um sort of light dialogue that that's a reference to it was nothing to do with
00:37:45 reference to it was nothing to do with um anyone uh treating the event itself as um with indifference given that you've told the inquiry
00:37:51 inquiry that you sought to avoid arrest for low-level matters not to be seen as hotthead why did you not just walk away from St John's Wood Tube Station and
00:38:05 from St John's Wood Tube Station and avoid confrontation with the police on that
00:38:06 that occasion yeah um good question and I'd rather I had done um so it's just one of those um those spontaneous moments I don't think that sort of uh undermines
00:38:19 don't think that sort of uh undermines in any ways um that General posture of of not doing that I mean it only only happened twice within my my time there so most of the time I did avoid wood walk away
00:38:28 walk away um so exceptionally rare but I absolutely agree um should have done and would almost rather I had done you were arrested twice but are you sure that it was only twice that you were at the
00:38:45 was only twice that you were at the front of this sort of event rather than hanging back yeah absolutely or is it the case that you were somebody who presented yourself as more willing to get
00:38:51 get involved in this sort of activity with that carried with it a risk of arrest than you have told the inquiry no absolutely not the front line you know sort of skirmishes
00:39:02 you know sort of skirmishes Confrontation um was just was just not
00:39:13 me could we have a look briefly before I move on at the custody record in your name that was kept by the police MPS 07461 164 it's your b147 sir page three
00:39:29 and can we thank
00:39:42 you the entry at 8:00 p.m. 2000 hours checked correct I think that says if I'm not mistaken meal offered uh delivered stated he was vegan uh that that told he would have to wait for food I was told to off is that how you behaved to
00:39:56 to off is that how you behaved to the police officers in in the police station um I don't remember using that language um I don't know whether that was you know Greg's language or not
00:40:07 was you know Greg's language or not um but that I mean that conversation yeah um I did have to decline food while waiting for vegan which was um I remember doing that for sure is it possible that you felt AG grieved having been assaulted by the police in the back
00:40:22 been assaulted by the police in the back of the van AG grieved enough to react in that way um no and this is I I do remember this though I tell you what I did feel grieved about um I was at that point very very hungry indeed and the idea of turning down a vegetarian meal
00:40:38 idea of turning down a vegetarian meal while having to wait for vegan um was um was not a happy place not easy in 1996 to get a vegan meal in police custody um no um absolutely not not sure how easy it would be now but anyway it was just the fact that having to wait for
00:40:50 the fact that having to wait for something that's what I remember most about um that
00:41:02 about um that evening can we take that down please and go back to the notes of detective Chief Inspector Edmonson MPS 02 46208 that's your b151
00:41:12 sir and at the bottom of page one if we can have the bottom half of the page
00:41:21 please Mr Edmonson expressed himself as satisfied that you had acted quite properly within the terms of your SDS operation and that your standing within your target group remains High it then
00:41:33 your target group remains High it then says this albeit some wiser heads found it amusing that he could not avoid arrest for this relatively minor offense do you understand the reference to wiser
00:41:44 do you understand the reference to wiser heads to be a reference to people within your target group
00:41:55 um well if don't know actually what whatever it is I mean there were people that did find it um within that that Target group as you put it um surprised uh but I'd found myself in that um in
00:42:06 uh but I'd found myself in that um in that situation and hadn't walked away from it so uh that that's certainly accurate I don't know what was meant by Keith Evanson when he wrote it Is there any possibility that that
00:42:23 it Is there any possibility that that refers to your colleagues in the SDS the wiser heads um I doubt it I don't know why they how those wiser heads would have got to that conclusion um and it's a um it wasn't a world that many of them were familiar with do you recall there being any
00:42:37 with do you recall there being any amusement from your colleagues that you had not been able to avoid arrest no there wasn't Amusement I mean I think people could actually see to be fair as I recall um it was quite difficult to conceal um the uh the pain um it was
00:42:50 conceal um the uh the pain um it was that classic sort of rib injury that every time you breathe on it at that time was at it's most painful
00:43:09 I'm going to ask that we turn to page three but before we do just remembering that on the 20th of March the view was that you're standing remained high in your target group could we have a look please at page three of this clip of
00:43:23 documents and a note on the 26th of April so just about a month on a bit on and you had been on holiday with your
00:43:41 wife um you had continuing discomfort in your ribs and a hairline F fracture had been
00:43:49 diagnosed Mr Edmonson appears to have provided that information on to um those in the police the medical branch and then the third paragraph says this apart from that hny y is in his usual good spirits orbe it he
00:44:03 is in his usual good spirits orbe it he has been involving himself fully in Alf activity of late and he is a little concerned about some around him being
00:44:14 concerned about some around him being arrested or least receiving presumably at least receiving home visits and searches by the police it may be that we will need to devise a cunning plan regarding this but we will have to ensure that we have
00:44:30 we will have to ensure that we have control at all times that idea is being considered and any outcome is being uh will be
00:44:36 will be noted when the note records that you had been involving yourself fully in Al activity of late what is it referring to I think that's a generic description um of of my
00:44:49 that's a generic description um of of my day-to-day engagement and Association um with with the group but your day-to-day life as Matt rer didn't involve daily Al activity did it um so no I think it's a it's a it's a loose bit of
00:45:01 loose bit of language um that describes just a continuation routinely of everything that I've done up to date that's what it describes is that
00:45:18 date that's what it describes is that right or is it reflecting an increased involvement by you in Al activity by this point in your deployment uh no but it does reflect I think a a closer association with those that are
00:45:27 that are isn't the definition of Al activity in the eyes of the SDS and of you at this time illegal activity um so I didn't I didn't write that I think it's you know I think it's
00:45:39 that I think it's you know I think it's it's it's lazily put um I know what was meant by that um which I've attempted to describe say I didn't write that what
00:45:53 describe say I didn't write that what did you tell Keith Edmonson you were up to well Keith Edmonson and the and the
00:46:05 to well Keith Edmonson and the and the team daytoday week to week um visibility um of what I was up to um they couldn't actually see what you were doing they were reliant on you to tell them weren't they yes absolutely that was that was a case from day one so what were you telling them you were doing in around
00:46:19 telling them you were doing in around April 1996 that might have led to the record suggesting that you were involving yourself fully in Al activity of late well I think if um if you put together together everything that we've spoken about um over the last few
00:46:34 spoken about um over the last few days um that's a pretty good picture in fact that is the picture as I've understood your evidence over the days that you've been giving it hm1 it's that whenever there was the prospect of activity criminal activity
00:46:53 prospect of activity criminal activity that might lead to arrest you stood back from the core of it and avoided getting involved as much as possible have I understood that yeah that's absolutely that was that was the balance I struck yes that's not consistent is it with involving yourself fully in Al
00:47:11 involving yourself fully in Al activity well Alf activity is a is a broad Church um yeah support for involved in groups um that are supportive of such activity Falls within that broad church right but it doesn't say involving himself fully in supporting Alf activity it says
00:47:27 supporting Alf activity it says involving himself fully in Al activity yeah I I I just say I didn't I didn't write that I think it's it's it's lazy language for the sake of brevity are you quite sure that it doesn't reflect an increasing
00:47:38 doesn't reflect an increasing willingness on your part as your deployment came towards its end to involve yourself in illegal activity connected to the AL no no that's not
00:47:52 connected to the AL no no that's not that's not what it's um that's not the significance of how that's written the reference uh to con your concern about some around you being arrested or at least receiving home
00:48:08 arrested or at least receiving home visits and searches by police that does indicate doesn't that those with whom you were associating were at least suspected of being involved in criminal activity
00:48:22 yes and the reference to devising a cunning plan regarding this was that something that you were involved in discussing at this stage were you aware of that as a
00:48:35 were you aware of that as a consideration um not at that time but then it was um uh it was discussed subsequently uh as to this might be something that um would enhanced
00:48:48 something that um would enhanced credibility and the need to enhance your credibility was because you were
00:49:00 credibility was because you were associating with people who were getting arrested were receiving attention from the police in connection with their activities yeah it was this whole concept of um if that type of thing is happening to others um how is it that um it hasn't happened to you yet I mean it wasn't
00:49:18 to you yet I mean it wasn't a um it wasn't spoken about all the time it was just an aspect of what you what enhances the journey if you like in
00:49:29 enhances the journey if you like in order for it to be worthy of remark that you you were not being arrested and not receiving police attention you must have been representing yourself as somebody who might do something worthy of police
00:49:41 might do something worthy of police atten attention does it not follow um well people um uh people were the subject of attention um not necessarily post fact it was with regards to intelligence um
00:49:56 intelligence um identifying um activity which falls into that for involvement with in um conspiring to a whole range of um yeah a whole range of broad Church type activity linked to the the sort of
00:50:07 activity linked to the the sort of generic self Acclaim self-avowed um support for Alf activity um you up and down the country um that was sort of
00:50:19 down the country um that was sort of routine police investigative work um and people
00:50:24 people were being the subject of um attention through search warrants for example example that's how the that's how that's what the Genesis of this discussion was
00:50:35 what the Genesis of this discussion was um so it wasn't hatched by me um it was presented to me as whether this was something worth exploring and presumably you agreed it was worth exploring because we know that there was a sham search of your cover address in due course so yeah yes as yeah as a
00:50:48 course so yeah yes as yeah as a conversation um unfolded we talked it through um and it it seemed to me that
00:51:00 through um and it it seemed to me that was um uh that was a worthwhile venture on the last occasion you gave evidence in January one of the individuals you compared yourself to in terms of your outlook and how you presented yourself
00:51:14 outlook and how you presented yourself was Paul grabit all right somebody who was vocally supportive of Al direct action but who didn't indicate any willingness himself to take that action do you recall giving evidence to that
00:51:25 do you recall giving evidence to that effect um yes absolutely in my time that was absolutely how I saw him and so if Matt rer was somebody who offered vocal support for Al activity but represented himself as
00:51:39 activity but represented himself as somebody not willing to take criminal direct action in support of it it wouldn't be surprising if that person was never arrested would it um no
00:51:50 person was never arrested would it um no but it it wouldn't be surprising if they were uh depending on what um other information was in the system that might
00:52:01 information was in the system that might give cause for uh that um that that type of action I think the other aspect of this was it it was deemed to be quite a useful
00:52:07 useful event which could then be exploited either way um one you need to be quieter than a before need to be more careful than before um and so it was quite a it
00:52:24 than before um and so it was quite a it was it was quite useful in terms of the versatility from which it could be um deployed
00:52:25 deployed subsequently just to to make sure I understand that answer you're suggesting that after a search it would give you an excuse to stand back from
00:52:37 excuse to stand back from activity well it gives one the option um to deploy that deploy that line yes and all sorts of risks as well I mean it was a it was a a balance uh of uh the
00:52:48 a it was a a balance uh of uh the positives and the negatives and yeah the complications of actually um doing it as well did you foresee as at April 1996 that you might come under any pressure
00:52:59 that you might come under any pressure to involve yourself in serious criminal activity such that it would be useful to have this
00:53:05 have this tool
00:53:08 tool um well it was useful to have the tool from a point of view I say um a little bit of credibility or enhancement of
00:53:19 bit of credibility or enhancement of credibility but also that additional um if you like range of options uh so and I was was more associated with people that were engaged in that type of action so it was just um I say it was part of the
00:53:31 it was just um I say it was part of the it was part of the journey um it wasn't with a view to any sort of strategic um finite part of the finite part of the
00:53:44 part of the operation let's have a look um if we may at a document the inquiry um found alongside the search warrants that were obtained uh in May 1996 it's MPS 0746
00:53:57 1996 it's MPS 0746 56 and it's your B150
00:54:16 sir and what this appears to be on its face hm1 um appearing alongside the warrants is at least a version of information an information being pre prepared for submission to the court in support of the warrants that were issued do you follow
00:54:28 do you follow yes and if we um just step back for a moment before I ask you to look at the detail of this do you accept that the whole premise for an application for a
00:54:41 whole premise for an application for a warrant to search your cover address and vehicle was false because you weren't in fact a real person um well I I wasn't involved in
00:54:55 person um well I I wasn't involved in the um in the wording of this um or the drafting
00:55:02 drafting of the case for a search warrant um but the whole nature of um the undercover operation was that um yeah I I was an authorized real
00:55:13 um yeah I I was an authorized real person in that identity but the court was going to be misled wasn't it necessarily um I had no involvement in how that aspect um of the application was dealt with uh at
00:55:27 was dealt with uh at all can we have a look at the detail uh in
00:55:28 in this uh document please I want to go through it um paragraph by paragraph so can we start with the first three on the screen
00:55:43 please right it says information has been received from a well-placed source who has proved to be very reliable in the past concerning an individual who has been responsible for threats to damage property and criminal damage inquiries made have established
00:55:56 damage inquiries made have established that the individual so named is resident at the aforementioned premises these are references to to Matt Raina in context this individual has been identified as a known animal rights activist who has
00:56:10 known animal rights activist who has been in regular attendance at protests against the animal trade and against people allegedly involved in the animal trade two of the subjects of animal rights attention of late have been the
00:56:21 rights attention of late have been the wholesale fur outlets in central London and the chicken slaughter house in Laden Street London
00:56:32 Street London E1 the first paragraph is suggesting that you have been responsible for threats to damage property and criminal damage is that accurate um well I think if you read the
00:56:43 accurate um well I think if you read the whole thing I mean it talks about all of that activity that is taking place um I haven't read the whole thing by the way but I I can see what um what's being
00:56:55 but I I can see what um what's being said there all of this activity um is taking place um in and an association with protests against um those premises you know I have been present as we've as we've discussed many times these last few days
00:57:12 discussed many times these last few days so which um which I never denied had you been responsible for threats to damage property and criminal damage no so to that extent this information to be put
00:57:25 that extent this information to be put before the court is false so I um can we read the whole can I have the whole thing back up yeah sure we'll read through the whole thing and then I can come back if we have paragraphs three and four on the screen sorry the one starting in March 1995
00:57:40 1995 please I haven't read that one thank you in March
00:57:42 in March 1995 a burglary was committed at the leaden street slaughter house during which damage was caused and a list of company employees were
00:57:55 stolen since then the home addresses of a number of L Street employees have been visited on these occasions the occupants of the addresses have been subjected to physical and verbal abuse they have also had damage caused to their
00:58:06 had damage caused to their property those paying the visits have been masked and have decamped prior to the arrival of police during the first
00:58:17 the arrival of police during the first quarter of this year the situation has escalated the most recent incidents involving the slaughterhouse employees occurred on the 21st of January 1996 a grenard and motorc car belonging to an employee of the slaughter house was
00:58:30 employee of the slaughter house was criminally damaged by what was believed to be animal rights activists in the vicinity of the premises then on the 20th of February 1996 an address in M
00:58:41 20th of February 1996 an address in M Avenue wly middlex was visited by about eight balaclava clad individuals who demanded to see the occupier son who is an employee at the chicken slaughter house the occupier who is a 76-year-old widow was caused Great alarm and
00:58:52 widow was caused Great alarm and distress by the threatening manner of the group who stated that they intended to to get her son later the group having left the premises then returned and sprayed in paint the words scum and
00:59:04 sprayed in paint the words scum and murder across the front door on walls of her house they also posted disturbing literature through her letter box and those of her neighbors can we have the next paragraphs
00:59:18 paragraphs please the final three please thank you in addition to the slaughter house campaign the London fur trade has been the target of many damage attacks including one which took place on during the night of the 12th to the 13th of March
00:59:29 March 1996 on this occasion a motor vehicle belonging to the wife of the manager of Hawley Furs was criminally damaged by having paint DED all over it the information received is that the occupant of the aforementioned premises
00:59:44 occupant of the aforementioned premises is responsible not only for taking part in Acts of criminal damage but also in targeting victims he is also responsible for recruiting others to commit the offenses with him and the occupant of the aforementioned premises for the
00:59:57 the aforementioned premises for the avoidance of doubt is is you the subject of the the warrant to be the purpose of the application is to search for evidence which will prove his connection with these offenses this evidence will it is expected include
01:00:10 evidence will it is expected include articles for use for causing criminal damage and correspondence which will relate to the targeting of victims it is also expected that evidence will be found in correspondence form which will assist in proving offenses committed by
01:00:28 assist in proving offenses committed by others involved do you accept looking at that document as a whole hm1 that the impression given is that you were involved Matt Raina was involved in these incidents yes if we could look then at that
01:00:46 yes if we could look then at that penultimate paragraph it also suggests doesn't it that you had taken part in Acts of criminal damage and also targeting victims had you no so this information makes false assertions in support of the application for a warrant on the face of it doesn't it um on the
01:00:58 on the face of it doesn't it um on the face of it yes as I say I had no part to play in the drafting this document never seen it before but yes I agree and it asserts that you were responsible for recruiting others to commit offenses
01:01:12 recruiting others to commit offenses with you were you so responsible no can you think of any reason why it's asserted there that you were uh no as say it wasn't privy to the process underway that um had this draft going
01:01:24 underway that um had this draft going into the system um did you understand that an application was going to be made for warrants to search your cover address and vehicle yes what did you imagine would
01:01:35 vehicle yes what did you imagine would be the basis for such an application if not a suggestion that you were involved in crime well um by association I mean if you if you take the generic
01:01:54 if you if you take the generic description of what was going on um as described in the application which is all correct um association with um through uh it being acknowledged that um for the mainstream demonstrations I was there I was taking people to being spotted was regularly present and was quite prominent on the scene I could see how
01:02:16 prominent on the scene I could see how you could get there as to um interest by investigators as to whether more would be found linking me to some of those allegations if your only role was to drive people to demonstrations that wouldn't be enough found a warrant would it investigating
01:02:31 found a warrant would it investigating you for involvement in criminal damage attacks or targeting victims well so allowing sort of allowing for the fact that this is you know by definition um
01:02:52 that this is you know by definition um something created um for the use of an SDS officer um within the system that would absolutely be enough um uh to actually
01:02:53 actually prompt uh the need to do more than hither to had been an investigation um up up to that point so regardless of the accuracy um of the assertion that I am
01:03:11 accuracy um of the assertion that I am behind all of those events um needing to know more about someone Associated very prominently and with other sort of forms of intelligence and Reporting identifying me as someone involved on a periphery would absolutely be
01:03:25 periphery would absolutely be enough right can we have a look at the examples given um and by reference to your reporting on the events if we could have a look please um could I have the whole document up and then look at the
01:03:38 whole document up and then look at the fourth paragraph that begins during the first quarter of this
01:03:52 year and this paragraph refers to an incident on the 21st of January in which a car belonging to an employee of the leaden street slaughter house was criminally damaged and can we bear that in mind and have up on the screen please MPS 0245
01:04:05 0245 867 an intelligence report of the 23rd of January of
01:04:13 1996 and we see a report um reporting um almost exactly what's in the information that an that Gretchen and another identified a Ford
01:04:24 Gretchen and another identified a Ford Granada used regularly by employees of the leaden street chicken slaughter house it was located and subjected to criminal damage attack by the pair is the information right or wrong in suggesting that you were also
01:04:36 in suggesting that you were also involved in that criminal damage attack uh well it's wrong because I wasn't are you sure about that yeah
01:04:49 wasn't are you sure about that yeah positive could we go back please to the information MPS 07461
01:04:54 07461 156 I don't know if it's possible to keep that document on the screen whilst we bring up the reports it might save going backwards and forwards but I'll leave that to whatever's easier side by side if that's possible and then that will save you jumping
01:05:12 around we can take that that report down now but have a backup at 07461 156 and keep that on the screen if we can thank you
01:05:27 thank you and can we go back if it's possible to zoom in on the left side document 07 46156 on the large paragraph during the first quarter thank
01:05:39 during the first quarter thank you the other incident referred to in this paragraph hm1 is on the 20th of febru and address in M Avenue Wembley middle sex was visited by about uh eight balaclava clad
01:05:51 balaclava clad individuals could we zoom out of that and if we can have on the screen next to the information MPS
01:06:02 MPS 0246 237 a report of the 23rd of February
01:06:20 1996 can we get rid of the report on the right hand side and having in instead MP s 0246 237
01:06:52 please thank you hm1 this is a report um of the events of the 20th of February visiting a a surprise home visit as it's
01:07:15 described and it describes the visit in paragraphs 2 and three we have those up on the screen please thank you as this the activists met at privacy station before going to privacy once in the street the activist his leafleted
01:07:26 the street the activist his leafleted neighboring houses having done this a small delegation went to the door and asked the elderly woman occupant where privacy was the elderly woman visibly shaken by the presence of sinister
01:07:37 shaken by the presence of sinister visitors said that privacy would not be home until the following night although she said he would be at work at privacy the next day satisfied that they had the correct address and that privacy was not there the activists adjourned to a
01:07:52 there the activists adjourned to a nearby pub during the ensuing period a small group of activists including George and privacy returned to the address and painted slogans on the walls and windows
01:08:04 and windows there if we compare that to the information in the document headed information can we take that down that says that eight balaclava clad
01:08:22 down that says that eight balaclava clad individuals demanded to see the occupier son and that the occupier a 76-year-old widow was caused Great alarm and distress by the threatening manner of the group who stated that they intended to get her son later so slight
01:08:35 to get her son later so slight differences in terms of the description of what went on and the effect on the individual are you able to say whether your reporting is more accurate or the information is more accurate
01:08:49 accurate um not not specifically I mean I do remember as being um I this was a particularly nasty event I do remember the you know the elderly person being shaken whatever how however it's described um so I've got no no
01:09:06 described um so I've got no no particular um recall of this event as to whether people at the time were put B CLS on or not uh but the event certainly took place well you were present for it weren't you we see your cover name and
01:09:18 weren't you we see your cover name and the bottom of the report no absolutely yeah no we we absolutely went there collectively yes um I just don't recall um the specific bit about bavs right
01:09:30 um the specific bit about bavs right were you a balava clad individual no no I've never never worn a balava can you think of any reason why the information put before the court would assert that if it were not accurate um no and I don't know that it
01:09:41 accurate um no and I don't know that it I don't know that it wasn't accurate um I just don't don't recall that and I see that I hadn't put that in my report either
01:09:52 either so no the report doesn't mention that at all no
01:10:03 the report uh attributes the painting of slogans on the walls and windows to George and another the information says that the
01:10:15 another the information says that the group returned to spray paint um across the front door and walls of the house again is it more accurate to suggest that it was just George and one other or was the whole group involved including you no the whole group wasn't um the elements of them were
01:10:34 can you think of any reason why when the information or when this detail reaches the document headed information it's suggesting that the whole group was involved um no I can't but it's not inaccurate to say you know elements of the group well it doesn't say elements
01:10:49 the group well it doesn't say elements of the group it says the group it no it doesn't I just say I didn't I didn't draft it and I didn't see it and I didn't cooperate it um could we have a look please uh if we take down the report on the right hand side of the home visit and focus
01:11:03 hand side of the home visit and focus back on the information please on the left hand
01:11:16 side it also asserts um damage to the car or the vehicle belonging to the wife of Mr Hawley in the fifth paragraph
01:11:28 and can we have up please the report 0246 076 MPS 0246 076 of the 15th of March
01:11:42 1996 that's your c441
01:11:54 sir and this report on the right hand side
01:12:00 side now referring to Wednesday the 13th of March so the same date reports uh that a car believed to belong to Hawley was sprayed with red paint
01:12:11 to Hawley was sprayed with red paint Gretchen and privacy apparently saw him driving the vehicle last week in addition to the paint attack it's believed they may have sent a letter to Hawley threatening or privacy may have sent a letter to hulley threatening further
01:12:26 further action were you involved in in this criminal damage attack or is the information wrong to imply that you were well I wasn't I wasn't
01:12:41 involved are you sure about that yes positive can you offer any explanation for how these particular incidents came to be included in the application for the search warrant or was that nothing to do with you um yeah I'm Fair that's
01:12:54 to do with you um yeah I'm Fair that's my constant reply on this one um I say I wasn't involved in the drafting I didn't see it wasn't able to cooperate or or even sort of suggest um
01:13:13 amendments could we just go back moving away um for a moment from the information itself and go back to uh
01:13:29 information itself and go back to uh this home visit that took place in moson Avenue in Wembley in February 1996 can we have on the screen MPS 0245
01:13:31 0245 910 that's your c425
01:13:44 sir and can we focus on the main body of the report thank you it's dated the 6th of February hm1 and in short it's a an a report in advance that the visit was to take place so George is becoming inly frustrated
01:13:58 so George is becoming inly frustrated with the lack of progress in his Crusade against the leaden street chicken slaughter house the three-year campaign has reached new heights of acrimony um and then paragraph two in devising new
01:14:09 and then paragraph two in devising new tactics George has decided that the 20th of February will be a day on which activists pay a visit to the home of one or more of the slaughterhouse staff in addition he's planning an Alf style Liberation raid on the slaughter
01:14:25 Liberation raid on the slaughter house um etc etc um but we see there reference at least that the 20th of February has been selected as a day for one or more home visits is that right yes that's right and the heading uh indicates that this information was
01:14:39 indicates that this information was known to very few trusted activists so that suggests that you were amongst a very small group does it not who knew about the information in this report um
01:14:53 about the information in this report um yes absolutely although you know George was very sort of um vocal um quite sometimes spontaneously as to his intentions and plans for events such as these if we take that down that's a report dated the 6th of February and can we put on the screen please MPS
01:15:06 we put on the screen please MPS 0245 964 it's your b143 sir and this is a a management a document uh created by
01:15:17 a a management a document uh created by management not by you on the face of it hm1 dated the 15th of February 1996 and can we uh it's headed the leaden street chicken slaughterhouse
01:15:32 leaden street chicken slaughterhouse campaign but can we have a look first of all at paragraphs uh 1 and two just to set the scene I it sets out the history um of the laden Street chicken slaughter house demonstrations that George is the main
01:15:47 demonstrations that George is the main campaigner that there have been monthly pickets and occa on occasions confrontations and that the atmosphere has been more tense it references is to damage to a
01:15:59 tense it references is to damage to a car um from activists which we've looked at reporting about that and then retaliation and scuffles breaking out at pickets in retaliation at paragraph two we needn't touch upon but it's George said to be
01:16:19 touch upon but it's George said to be recruiting a new Ally and then can we have a look please at the following paragraphs three and four and five please actually thank
01:16:26 you um there's reference at paragraph 3 to a change in the demonstrations and then also what has
01:16:37 demonstrations and then also what has not been reported or communicated to C Squad is the intended target for the subsequent home visit the target is privacy of mtin Avenue Wembley this has not been communicated because there can
01:16:52 not been communicated because there can be no guarantee that to do so would not result in police action which would be detrimental to the safety of hn1 hm1 will be taking part in the home visit which is not likely to result in criminal acts against privacy or his
01:17:05 criminal acts against privacy or his property so what we see there um taking it in stages is that it appears that by at least the 15th of February so nine days after the written report certainly
01:17:21 days after the written report certainly you were able to say that the target for the home visit would be this address in moson Avenue and when is that right yes and and are you able to say why that
01:17:36 and and are you able to say why that doesn't appear in your written report is it because the decision had been taken not to communicate not to disseminate that
01:17:40 that detail we're looking at that yes that is the explanation
01:17:54 yeah were you consulted or informed about the decision not to communicate or disseminate the target for this visit more widely
01:17:58 um I don't know if we had that conversation on this um uh on this specific one um it would be there was always a conversation about um how many people know
01:18:14 people know about sort of Duty of um care to the um the subject um of the protest um and the likelihood um of anything unto happening did you know when you went
01:18:27 happening did you know when you went along to the visit that the wider police Community had not been alerted in advance uh no I I didn't know whether they had or whether they hadn't um I always was happy to leave that
01:18:38 always was happy to leave that decision um to u to the office the suggestion made here is that the reason for not communicating the target the precise address is because there can be
01:18:50 precise address is because there can be no guarantee that it wouldn't result in police action detrimental to your safety do you
01:18:58 do you understand what that means um well if it if it was genuinely felt and it could well have been at the time um that this really was only known um to those on an invitation list
01:19:13 um to those on an invitation list attending um I think it was with a that's part of the balance of protecting uh the originat of the information in this case me so when it says safety would it be
01:19:31 says safety would it be equally accurate to say detrimental to the operational security of your deployment yes so to ensure that you were able to
01:19:43 yes so to ensure that you were able to maintain cover and not be not fall under suspicion would be another way putting it yeah as part of that articulation
01:20:01 yeah the assertion that uh it's the uh home visit was not likely to result in criminal acts against the individual or his property we know from your report after the event that there was damage in by
01:20:13 the event that there was damage in by painting slogans on the house was that not foreseen as a possibility um yes in my mind it always would have been I don't think um on those home visits I ever committed to a line um that criminal damage was
01:20:32 line um that criminal damage was anything other than a possibility so do I take it from that that you would not have asserted that the home visit was not likely to result in criminal acts against the individual or the property um for that type of event with those
01:20:43 um for that type of event with those individuals I would absolutely not have asserted
01:20:50 that because in order to dorb slogans with paint one presumably needs to turn up with the paint so there's an element of planning well even yeah even without any knowledge of that in advance it was just knowing how those home visits go
01:21:02 just knowing how those home visits go the level of Victory on arrival and even if not planned uh a spontaneous you know um
01:21:16 um emotion can easily lead to um unplanned events so even even without the lack even with the lack of planning and intent um I would always include U on visits such as those the possibility of spilling over into um acts such as those but one can't
01:21:28 acts such as those but one can't spontaneously DW paint unless one's carrying paint around no no no I'm not talking about the paint specifically um I'm talking about the assertion that
01:21:41 I'm talking about the assertion that it's unlikely that criminal activity uh sorry it's likely it's unlikely that criminal activity will take place I would always have the provisor that it could well do whether planned or otherwise and on this particular occasion that you attended were you aware that those attending were taking
01:21:53 aware that those attending were taking paint with them with a view potentially to causing criminal damage um no I don't think I was at the time I don't think that had been spoken about specifically I'm not in my presence what so do you
01:22:09 I'm not in my presence what so do you remember that coming as a surprise to you well I mean all those sorts of things just from past experience um have a habit of appearing or had had a habit of appearing up and down the country um so but um in advance um it
01:22:22 country um so but um in advance um it wasn't specifically that's going to be the plan of attack so no and I wasn't present um when any such conversation
01:22:33 present um when any such conversation was had but recognizing that on the day Anything could happen I think you've described elsewhere George as being somebody you regarded as um having a volatile temperament and being unpredictable sometimes taking action Without Really Consulting other people
01:22:45 Without Really Consulting other people is that is that right yeah I think that was um not just my
01:22:53 view looking at it now was it not risky not to alert the local relase in the circumstances to this home visit in
01:22:59 visit in advance um well I I mean I I said I didn't I didn't know that they hadn't been so um
01:23:14 when it's a balance isn't it um with hindsight um another part of the risk mitigation um is to uh brief the intended um uh subject of the protest um that was likely to
01:23:30 that was likely to um some form of protest at the house and and not to be there and I don't know whether that was done or not well based on this document the address wasn't communicated even to C
01:23:45 even to C Squad so it appears doesn't it that the intelligence wasn't disseminated this particular piece of intelligence the address wasn't disseminated anywhere outside of the SDS yeah reading that
01:23:58 outside of the SDS yeah reading that that's how that reads yes and so so does it follow that this is the SDS taking a decision
01:24:00 decision internally that it would take a risk in terms of the safety of the
01:24:14 risk in terms of the safety of the property and the individual concerned in order to safeguard the continuation of your
01:24:15 your deployment um yes on this occasion I mean that was a risk that they you were mandated to um to own um and and regular um you know regularly balance that type
01:24:30 um you know regularly balance that type of risk when you say they were mandated to own the risk was there any written policy or guidance that you were aware of that gave them authority to take those risks in order to maintain the cover of their field officers I don't no
01:24:45 cover of their field officers I don't no I don't know I don't know whether it was written policy um or indeed where that was but it was a um a structured outfit with senior command
01:24:57 with senior command um all the way to the top that had vicarious liability for ownership ownership of that risk taking and articulation of why it was taken in the way it
01:25:17 was right could we take that um down please um and I want to um look a little more at the management documentation around this time could we go to MPS 0730 1114 please it's your B150 54 sir
01:25:29 0730 1114 please it's your B150 54 sir and hm1 this is a file note which on its face shows Bob Lambert as the uh its author and it's dated the 20th of May
01:25:41 author and it's dated the 20th of May 1996 so the document we were looking at in which uh Keith Edmonson referred to there being a cunning plan or thoughts
01:25:56 there being a cunning plan or thoughts of a cunning plan was back I think in in April and now in uh May uh this is a note drafted by Bob Lambert could we uh just zoom in on the top half of the page please above the reduction thank
01:26:11 you right so a document again referring to the fact that you had come under suspicion from George uh during the first year of your
01:26:22 first year of your deployment and it says this during the intervening period hm1 has got on reasonably well with George but there has always been an underlying tension which appears to have been exacerbated by the fact that hm1 has won the confidence of leading Al activists
01:26:34 the confidence of leading Al activists in London and elsewhere and George has not and then there's a paragraph about why uh certain activists uh who listed
01:26:46 why uh certain activists uh who listed there do not trust George because he's excitable and discreet Etc um and then paragraph three describes George as the leading
01:26:58 describes George as the leading organizer of the long running long running Laden Street chicken slaughterhouse demonstrations and then it says this it was on a recent Laden Street demonstration when hm1 managed to incur the WTH of George again this was a
01:27:11 the WTH of George again this was a personality clash and one where the bulk of activists concerned have sided with hn1 however it leaves George angry and determined to undermine hm1 if he can do you recall what that is referring
01:27:30 can do you recall what that is referring to um can you remind me the date of that yes it's May it's 20th of May 1996 So within the last six months or so of your deployment oh okay um no not specifically um there were many such occasions um where um I don't know what
01:27:45 occasions um where um I don't know what that particular altercation was if that if you asking me about that specific bit um yes I was wondering if you could assist
01:27:50 assist as no by I mean by 96 um uh you know I'd lived for four years um with his
01:28:01 um with his um uh I guess you know his his views on me and um and dislike in in a in a sense um and that anything when we were close
01:28:15 um and that anything when we were close well when we were close to each other in geography uh was likely to be antagonistic for him so I can't remember what that
01:28:23 what that specific had it been earlier I mean there was one um incident where um
01:28:35 um incident where um he uh assumed my temporary disappearance to go and get coffee was I I think associated with phoning the police um and use that as a sort of one of the strands as to why I might have
01:28:46 of the strands as to why I might have been well at that time a journalist or or something other than what I was reporting to be I can't no so as late as 96 I don't remember that
01:28:58 96 I don't remember that specific uh uh Saga um have been one I'd lived with for over five years so this was a recurring theme recurring fairly lowlevel incidents well look it was it was almost um I mean it was a sub I mean so many
01:29:11 um I mean it was a sub I mean so many people by then were talking about it um uh about the two of us as you know having just not got on uh for a long periods of time orbe it that we'd
01:29:26 periods of time orbe it that we'd actually been present and um at events together could we just have a look at page two of the
01:29:30 document thank
01:29:36 you just going to wait I haven't put a paragraph reference just bear with me
01:29:50 please yes if we could look please just it's the the first main paragraph we could look at the first three paragraphs if we could zoom in on
01:30:04 those um it it says that you realize you have to tread wey to avoid the matter escalating um would not be in your interest to engage in a long running internal dispute which might backfire once you left the scene and then it says instead he that's you is going to seek an opportunity to appease George on a
01:30:20 an opportunity to appease George on a onetoone basis it may follow from your lack of recollection of the incident itself but are you able to help us to what appeasement of George you might
01:30:31 what appeasement of George you might have engaged in uh no other than uh the occasional discussion as to attempts to almost sort of have this out one to one uh whether you know what are we going to do about this either sort of put up or shut up and um type
01:30:43 sort of put up or shut up and um type conversation uh that never those never really materialized or when they did um they weren't entirely
01:30:54 they weren't entirely successful the document goes on in that third paragraph George's current allegations add impetus to a plan to enhance hm1 credibility by visibly linking him to an ongoing police
01:31:08 linking him to an ongoing police investigation concerning criminal damage attacks surrounding the leaden street campaign George for his part has been arrested for related offenses in the past more recently however privacy Gretchen and privacy have been
01:31:19 Gretchen and privacy have been questioned with regard to a criminal damage attack which took place at the home of a laden street slaughterman L slaughterman in
01:31:31 slaughterman in February that appears on the face of it hm1 to be a reference back to the 20th of February visit to the muston Avenue
01:31:43 address and the document concludes thus the intention has been to include hm1 in this investigation so as to enhance his credibility but also to offset George's specific allegation or cause for
01:31:54 specific allegation or cause for suspicion I.E how come he never gets pulled in by police do you recall um that there was
01:32:12 police do you recall um that there was um a a plan to link you specifically to a a a visit to the home address and a criminal damage attack at the home address of aaden Street slaughterman uh sorry a plan by whom to link me well this this is written by Bob Lambert so a plan by the management of the SDS
01:32:30 the SDS to link you to a criminal damage attack that had taken place in February at a home of a laden Street slaughterman um not not in connection specifically with the application for um for the warrant if that's if that's the
01:32:44 for the warrant if that's if that's the question well this is a document drafted by Bob Lambert shortly before the warrants were executed suggesting that the plan would to enhance your credibility would involve linking you to that
01:32:55 would involve linking you to that specific Criminal damage attack do you recall being made aware of that no do you agree that it wouldn't make much sense to George or the other activists to see you arrested in connection with that criminal damage
01:33:10 connection with that criminal damage attack unless you had been sufficiently close to it to Warrant suspicion um well I don't think the plan was to um let them know what the specific nature of uh what it uh what
01:33:22 specific nature of uh what it uh what was going into the application the want it was a general as as in that statement um how do we get over that how do we
01:33:33 um how do we get over that how do we move forward for those how come he never gets pulled in by the police um type assertions it wasn't Laden Street um specific right but wouldn't you expect to be asked after the event by your fellow
01:33:47 fellow activists what were you arrested for and to be able to give a credible answer um well yeah no that did take place I mean that the whole I mean the whole purpose of of the
01:33:59 I mean the whole purpose of of the subsequent um search was to be able to talk about it and was the reason that you gave them that the arrest was linked to a
01:34:16 them that the arrest was linked to a home visit in February at which criminal damage took place I I I don't remember singling that out um in my in my explanation to anyone it was more The Wider um The Wider interest me of
01:34:27 Wider um The Wider interest me of someone that was on the scene at someone that they now wanted to know more
01:34:36 about so if asked after the event you were simply to tell your fellow activists that the police were just generally interested in you as someone on the
01:34:46 on the scene rather than arrested in connection with a sus suspicion that you had been involved in a particular offense no it was for me it was for me to use as I I
01:35:02 was for me it was for me to use as I I saw fit um I me everyone that knew me by then knew I was um you uh on the scene and associating with people that were being um the subject of Interest or or arrested um or the subject of search one so there'd be nothing unusual in terms
01:35:13 so there'd be nothing unusual in terms of where I was um for me to be next in line if you like but it wasn't for me to shout from the Treetops about the fact I've been arrested it was for me to use discreetly um as to
01:35:28 discreetly um as to as as to what had happened but the fact was it had happened I could speak credibly about it but even if deploying it discreetly you would be deploying it with fellow activists have I understood that correctly the the explanation yes yes
01:35:42 correctly the the explanation yes yes and those activists were themselves not strangers some of them to being arrested by the police were they no but it was um you're asking specifically about mostin Avenue and Laden stre
01:35:57 Avenue and Laden stre um you know no one's expected to talk to others that weren't involved in that type of activity about about stuff that you might generally want to keep to yourself but those activists would understand wouldn't they that if you
01:36:09 understand wouldn't they that if you were arrested by the police the police would have to have suspicion at least that you had been involved in a criminal offense um that's it no well yeah but I think yes but the general view was um
01:36:24 think yes but the general view was um you know the police were pretty active um and most uh most association with this generic Al way of life came under police scrutiny in a way that regularly
01:36:37 police scrutiny in a way that regularly had people um put under um investigation and sometimes the subject of search
01:36:44 warrants is it not the case that if this was going to enhance your
01:36:55 was going to enhance your credibility It could only work in that sense if the activists believed there were grounds to connect you with a criminal
01:37:01 criminal offense so um suspicion of Engagement in activity supportive of that type of activity I think there U where we're sitting at the moment having this conversation is um just it's it's actually quite difficult um to describe um what was going on at
01:37:14 um to describe um what was going on at the time in terms of the proliferation of this type of activity which is more or less a complete thing of the past now so it wasn't
01:37:28 so it wasn't um these weren't odd bits of campaigning that had individuals only sort of um arrested and incarcerated um for serious arrestable offenses This was um prolific activity up and down the country
01:37:40 activity up and down the country responsible economic damage criminal acts and in some cases quite serious criminal acts so it was as prevalent as other extremist forms of action were
01:37:52 other extremist forms of action were including Irish Republican um terrorism in terms of the level of interest and need to know what those associated with this course of action was so it wouldn't have come as any surprise to anyone um even if it was just for my
01:38:07 anyone um even if it was just for my taking people to and from events um that I'd come under such scrutiny if you had been if you had told your fellow activists that you had been arrested by the
01:38:16 the police simply to inquire into why you seem to be driving people backwards and forwards to demonstrations would they not have encouraged you to take action against the police for an unlawful arrest yeah
01:38:28 the police for an unlawful arrest yeah so I that's not what I said I did um uh I was saying how they could quickly get there in terms of this knowledge of intense police scrutiny of what was
01:38:40 intense police scrutiny of what was going on at the time because it was so
01:38:51 going on at the time because it was so prolific and the number of people being swept up into that sort of um sort of investigative Machinery no it wasn't obviously just because I was taking people to and from um but it was certainly knowing that at event where um we had all been associated in different groupings things were going on and people were being arrested and I was by definition
01:39:06 by definition geographically um and almost sort of intellectually supportive of such activity I mean why wouldn't they want to well simply intellectually supporting such
01:39:13 such activity didn't necessarily lead to someone being arrested did it no that was on my list I didn't just mention that in isolation that was on a that was part of a list of things
01:39:24 part of a list of things but none of your list if if I suggest hm1 none of your list includes anything that would give the police proper grounds for arrest is it oh this wasn't an arrest um This was um part of an
01:39:37 an arrest um This was um part of an investigation into those involved in um support for organization of um knowledge of um this prolific type of activity all right well perhaps we'll Carry On Through the
01:39:53 Through the documents um I'll just uh carry on with this document before the break at par further down on P page two sorry could we have a look um from the paragraph starting DC MCM MOS down to the
01:40:16 end it the paragraph now at the top of the page beginning DC MC Moss uh in summary describes that uh he has made connection or made a productive working relationship with with an officer in the officer in the case Who's involved in
01:40:35 officer in the case Who's involved in the investigation of the events at moson Avenue who has already been responsible for the arrest and search of someone else's home address uh based on a photo fit relating to the criminal damage attack at moson Avenue in
01:40:47 Avenue in February and Mick Moss has worked out a way of securing the search of your address based on a warrant issued at the local magistrates Court to enable a full search of the address and then it says copy warrant and draft information attached so the draft information is
01:41:03 attached so the draft information is what um we were going through earlier the search will be conducted by
01:41:11 the search will be conducted by detective Constable Charles Lindsley on the animals section who has been fully briefed and he will be accompanied by Wembley CID who of course have no knowledge of the activist true identity that's your true identity it is hoped that correspondence at the address will lead to an arrest
01:41:25 at the address will lead to an arrest and subsequent questioning at Wembley police station so it was envisaged wasn't it that as part of this sham search of your address you would in fact be
01:41:33 be arrested um yes it suggests that correspondence at the address would lead to your arrest was there a plan to place correspondents in your cover
01:41:46 correspondents in your cover address that would link you to the either the leaden street slaughterhouse campaign or the muston Avenue new event in
01:41:54 in particular uh no did you have such literature at or correspondence at your cover address anyway yeah there were
01:42:05 cover address anyway yeah there were leaflets and paraphernalia um associated with those campaigns yeah and did you discuss with Bob Lambert the fact that that paraphernalia was at your address and could be used as grounds for your arrest
01:42:16 arrest no did you discuss that the paraphernalia was there with Bob Lambert uh um no I think he would have he would
01:42:28 um no I think he would have he would have known that that was sort of part of the
01:42:35 the furniture how would he have known that you had correspondence at the address sufficient to justify your arrest um because um well I don't know about justifying the arrest but in terms of um uh knowing and seeing how I was living um if not him one of his colleagues um had visited
01:42:50 colleagues um had visited before so through visits to your cover address it would have been known that there was material there sufficient to give grounds to Wembley CID to arrest you yeah I mean it was it was um it was absolutely known sort of there was
01:43:03 absolutely known sort of there was paraphernalia um and leaflets and the OD poster uh that was was part of the setup there but we can see from this document that this officer from Wembley
01:43:14 that this officer from Wembley CID is the officer in the case investigating what happened at moson Avenue and she the intention appears to be that when she turns up at your cover
01:43:27 be that when she turns up at your cover address she'll have no idea that you're an undercover police officer that's that's how it appears from this document isn't it that's how it appears in the document yeah um and so if a decision were to be made by her to arrest you it
01:43:42 were to be made by her to arrest you it on the basis of something found in your address that thing found would have to be sufficient to give her grounds to to arrest you wouldn't it um well I wasn't
01:43:59 arrest you wouldn't it um well I wasn't I doesn't have to be as clinical as that um it could be um enough um in terms of whatever else that person has at their disposable um to want to arrest me for further
01:44:16 questioning what are you suggesting that detective Constable Lisa large might have at her disposal I'm sorry I didn't understand that answer no I'm not suggesting anything I'm saying but um regardless of what is found during a search warrant um from I'm
01:44:34 during a search warrant um from I'm talking about in generally here is um is that's not the whole picture often um it's there will be things outside of what is found in terms of intelligence other investigative material which gives grounds um for further questioning um and a rest in connection with those um
01:44:49 and a rest in connection with those um uh with that questioning it's not solely reliant on what is found um in one's home address but your evidence Matt rer wasn't engaging in criminal activity so what other grounds could there possibly be well I right yeah I had no part to
01:45:02 be well I right yeah I had no part to play um in the drafting of this one but I will keep coming back to the fact that there would have been enough in the
01:45:16 there would have been enough in the machine of people observing me seeing me reporting me um up and down the country um as a um as a very present campaigner but but being a campaign ER doesn't give grounds for arrest does it
01:45:29 doesn't give grounds for arrest does it well no in isolation no but campaigning with Association for linked to groups who were unashamed in their commitment to the use of direct action um in support of animal Liberation bringing
01:45:41 support of animal Liberation bringing the Viv setion and the third trade to an end um at the time that would have been that would have been plenty um you could argue even I mean regardless of the fact I was an undercover officer that would
01:45:53 I was an undercover officer that would have that would absolutely be more than enough are you quite sure you weren't more involved in the criminal acts being carried out by your fellow activists than you are willing to admit to this inquiry hm1 no I'm absolutely certain
01:46:06 inquiry hm1 no I'm absolutely certain that um I you could not have been more open and candid on this
01:46:20 one um there's one more point on this document I'm just pausing to see if I can test the p Pati of the stenographer for a few more minutes youve got a nod thank you can we just turn please finally to page three then of this
01:46:36 document and at the top of the
01:46:44 page um it is asserted it would certainly be surprising were hm1 to complete 5 years in the AL with only one or two public order offenses to his
01:46:59 to his name do you agree with that suggestion hm1 um yeah I don't disagree does it not seem at odds with
01:47:11 disagree does it not seem at odds with what you've said about it being possible to carry out a long-term deployment seeking intelligence about the Al and standing back and not involving yourself in their activity um no I don't think it
01:47:22 activity um no I don't think it contradicts that at all there are ways of being involved
01:47:32 of being involved but keep you or keeps one well away from the public order of offense type arrest um and the more discreet support that nevertheless brings one into that category of U action being taken against you but isn't the suggestion or the implied suggestion
01:47:43 implied suggestion here that the arrest in connection with M Avenue will be helpful to you because it would be surprising if all you had done in 5 years was be arrested for a
01:47:56 done in 5 years was be arrested for a couple of minor public order offenses yeah look it's not it's not categorical one way or another and it's all contextual within say where where in my case I was on that
01:48:09 where where in my case I was on that Journey um and B in terms of the the search that we're talking about I think is that was deemed to be sort of commensurately um proportionate to
01:48:24 commensurately um proportionate to something that needed happen that hadn't happened as a result of which people were asking questions so it didn't need it didn't have to happen um but strategically um it was a
01:48:37 strategically um it was a useful um uh part of the as a journey of it as it
01:48:47 were and useful because it would indeed be surprising for somebody to spend 5 years expressing themselves as a supporter of the ALF and not to involve them El in any activity that risked arrest well not to have come to the
01:49:00 arrest well not to have come to the attention um in a way that can be spoken about um I the incident we're talking about um uh search and arrest uh I think that's well I don't think that's what we're referring to
01:49:11 we're referring to here thank
01:49:21 you so can I suggest we take the break there certainly um we'll break for 15 minutes
01:49:51 for
02:05:20 e e
02:06:02 hm1 can I check you can see and hear me yes thank you could we have on the screen please um the same document we were looking at um before the break but a later part of it thank you so page starting on page
02:06:16 it thank you so page starting on page three and going over to page four there is an update to the note that we were looking at uh which confir confirms that on the 21st of may of 1996 the search warrant obtained was
02:06:30 1996 the search warrant obtained was executed and you were in fact arrested and questioned at Wembley police
02:06:47 and questioned at Wembley police station do you recall being arrested and questioned at wly police station yes this document asserts that you were questioned arrested and questioned concerning your possession of Correspondence which indicated your involvement in the leaden street campaign and gave rise to Reasonable
02:06:59 campaign and gave rise to Reasonable Suspicion of possible criminal activity VI the targeting of slaughterhouse Personnel can you be any more precise as
02:07:12 Personnel can you be any more precise as to what it was you were in possession of that gave rise to Reasonable Suspicion of involvement in the targeting of slaughterhouse Personnel um well there would have been flyers for events um there would have
02:07:25 flyers for events um there would have been um articles um um so lots of the it was a high-profile Campaign which featured
02:07:27 featured in um journals um articles in the I think the AL supporters group
02:07:41 supporters group um magazine paper um so yeah plenty there with reference to uh my knowledge of um Associated involvement in um so but mainly so literature for
02:07:56 literature for sure but what what literature that would have linked you to the targeting of slaughterhouse Personnel specifically oh no no I don't well it wouldn't there's no literature linked to the T the targeting in that
02:08:09 linked to the T the targeting in that sense um but in terms of the slaughter house campaign being uh one that I was involved in with through the regular picketing um is is a good starting point bearing in mind all
02:08:26 good starting point bearing in mind all the other associated activity which was taking place um out of sort of public view as it were this document is asserting that you were questioned about it do you have no recollection of what it was you were questioned about specifically in this regard um do you know I I really don't
02:08:40 regard um do you know I I really don't remember the questioning um but it would have been
02:08:46 have been um I mean in summary um very similar to the questions that um we've engaged in um about involvement in knowledge of um
02:09:01 um about involvement in knowledge of um role um knowledge of specific events for example the Wembley one uh I really I have no granular uh recall though of question by question but it was very similar to um the type of conversation we've
02:09:10 we've had but what basis would the wem CID Officer have had for asking you about the incident at mostin Avenue or the targeting of slaughterhouse Personnel
02:09:22 targeting of slaughterhouse Personnel more generally what what gave them the basis for asking you questions about those topics um well I was I mean I was involved um and I was involved in the
02:09:37 involved um and I was involved in the London scene um and Wembley was the area that covered where I lived um I mean it was I me my mind totally totally
02:09:46 justified the uh document here goes on to
02:09:48 to record uh that the operation was regarding Ed as having gone extremely well there had been a series of
02:09:59 well there had been a series of interviews with Detective Constable Lisa large and you were released on bail pending further
02:10:06 inquiries at the point at which you were released on bail did you have any understanding of what might happen next in connection with this at at this stage embryonic criminal investigation into
02:10:23 embryonic criminal investigation into you no did you feel at all at risk of charge or
02:10:27 charge or prosecution uh no I didn't know I felt this was a contained um a contained part of the operation and and why were you confident in that what did you think was going to happen
02:10:38 happen next um well I didn't give it I didn't give it much thought in that sense other than this what I mean it clearly was
02:10:50 than this what I mean it clearly was staged um and therefore there would have been a degree of control um over what happened next this was a series of questions
02:10:56 questions um and questions which I answer a fairly satisfactory way to my mind uh that wouldn't lead to any um any form of prosecution regardless of it's
02:11:08 prosecution regardless of it's authenticity or not um and bailing pending further investigation was
02:11:16 pending further investigation was actually stand you know totally standard procedure had there been any discussion in advance of you being interviewed about what you should say to the uninitiated detective Constable Lisa L in order to avoid her taking the investigation any further um no uh I um I do
02:11:36 remember I can't I can't be certain um I really can't and I I never asked um as to the degree to which she might have been briefed somehow the document the first part of
02:11:51 somehow the document the first part of this document that we looked at before the break indicated that she was not told AB your real identity yeah did say that y so what was there to guard against the possibility that she
02:12:03 guard against the possibility that she might take the investigation against you further towards you being charged oh well I mean I didn't feel a need to worry about that um because I assume that would have been yeah say part of the containment um strategy uh
02:12:18 part of the containment um strategy uh for the whole uh for the whole operation as it were so that was for Bob Lambert and Keith and to worry about as far as you were concerned is that is that yeah no absolutely well not just to worry
02:12:31 no absolutely well not just to worry about but as part of the as part of the planning as to how this would you how this would end the second paragraph on the page records that a pickaxe handle was seized from your address what was that doing
02:12:46 there um
02:12:55 H I recall having um um a baseball bat I don't remember a pickaxe handle was a pickaxe handle planted in your cover address in advance of the search can you recall whether that
02:13:09 search can you recall whether that that's what happened no I I I really can't recall any um any pickaxe handling feature featuring at all if it was a baseball bat what was that doing in your cover
02:13:25 bat what was that doing in your cover address oh just theater what does that mean um so my uh Place have been burgled uh while I was living there and um so when people came around it was um for the theater of yes if someone comes again um I'll be ready
02:13:40 someone comes again um I'll be ready type theater ever for the theater of I'm an activist willing to do damage with this baseball bat no for the theater of protecting myself the next time somebody else comes in and um damages my my
02:13:56 uh the final paragraph on the page records that at 700 p.m. on the day of your arrest you were debriefed by Keith Edmonson and Bob Lambert and found to be in good
02:14:07 in good spirits his account of the interviews formal and informal with Detective Constable large helped confirm that she appeared to be entirely satisfied that he was the genuine Al activist article
02:14:27 he was the genuine Al activist article so whatever you said your interviews you maintained your cover and that appears to have worked in the sense that she remained uninitiated do you agree um yes I do agree can you recall anything of the nature of what you said to her in the
02:14:40 interview um not specifically no other than um answering your questions in a way that um yeah I say very similar to the theme and the focus of um our
02:14:51 the theme and the focus of um our question specifically regards to um London based
02:14:58 activity so do you mean you were being asked about generally involvement in london-based animal rights campaigning or something else um well I was there for a bit of
02:15:11 else um well I was there for a bit of time so I'd imagine the whole uh quite a sort of broad spectrum
02:15:20 of activity was was discussed I just I just really cannot I really cannot remember
02:15:29 the document goes on uh to say you were treated well and fairly your performance appears to have been equal to the occasion and then this he was able to phone Alf activist Aubrey Thomas from the police station and he subsequently informed PJ Zed if you need to consult
02:15:47 informed PJ Zed if you need to consult the cipher list please do fine thank you and other key Associates some of whom had to be alerted that their phone numbers addresses had un fortunately fallen into police hands um rather than the impression you gave earlier about
02:16:02 the impression you gave earlier about this being something you might deploy if necessary it appears in fact doesn't it that active steps were taken by you to alert uh Al activists as they're termed here to the fact of your
02:16:14 here to the fact of your arrest um yeah I did selectively yes and when you did that did they not ask you questions about what it was you'd been arrested in connection with um well not immediately no it was more I think concern for how it had gone and
02:16:29 think concern for how it had gone and what happens next and what about other than immediately did they not ask you what you'd been arrested in connection with what the police were interested
02:16:40 with what the police were interested in um yeah and um absolutely um and I think it was in connection with that that um I mentioned you know some of some people's details um in oldfashioned address books would have would have therefore
02:16:51 therefore now be um now now be within their records yeah because the activists who were engaging in criminal activities were themselves concerned about their own risk of being arrested weren't they
02:17:10 own risk of being arrested weren't they um well generically um I think there was always always that concern because it was happening and so if you had been arrested and questioned there would have been some interest on their part to understand what it was the police knew and what lines of Investigation the police were pursuing is that fair y
02:17:23 pursuing is that fair y absolutely and so were you not asked to account for the your questioning in the police station and what topics it had covered
02:17:36 covered yes and you were able to satisfy them were you that the questioning had related to something that justified you being pulled in by the police yes even though on your account Matt rer was somebody who didn't involve himself
02:17:52 somebody who didn't involve himself directly in criminal activity oh know but by the time we've explained the broad range of questions um I mean anyone will get there quite quickly um as to why I might have been in use of use in in attempting to answer
02:18:10 them could we um look at the last part of the uh briefing note thank you it says that after the debrief you left for an all night session with Brendan MCN
02:18:22 an all night session with Brendan MCN MCN saw the arrest as part of an Arie inspired campaign of harassment and monitoring of top Alf players
02:18:35 Nationwide another useful spin-off was that MC Moss obtained details of a word of mouth anti- circus demo at godstone sorry and could thus disseminate fully without fear of compromising uh
02:18:47 sources can we thank you all in all a very satisfactory outcome do you recall the all night session with Brenda MCN that is referred to there yeah I do I um I do recall um yeah a
02:19:00 yeah I do I um I do recall um yeah a long conversation or a conversation with him um separately at a um can't remember where it was um uh there there were others there but I do remember us going having a conversation separately for
02:19:17 having a conversation separately for some time it so on the day that you had or the evening of the day that you had been arrested well but but for that remind ER I wouldn't have got there as to it happened that day but it I certainly remember having that conversation with him so not contesting it wasn't on that day and it seems from
02:19:31 it wasn't on that day and it seems from what's in this document doesn't it that offers his view on the arrest that you must have discussed the arrest with at least with Brendan MCN that night
02:19:44 least with Brendan MCN that night yes do you agree with the conclusion on the face of it by Bob Lambert that all in all it was a very satisfactory outcome um well it's certain appear to have been yes I mean I wouldn't dispute that did you reflect on whether it was
02:20:03 that did you reflect on whether it was satisfactory for the Wembley C officers who were effectively misled and wasted their time interviewing an undercover officer um no I didn't reflect on it in that way um I I just reflected it on as being something have been carefully
02:20:15 being something have been carefully thought through um and been conducted well and I'd come out of it satisfactorily and the uh everyone appeared to be satisfied with the way it
02:20:28 appeared to be satisfied with the way it had gone so it was for others to concern themselves with the degree to which people were going to be briefed or otherwise but we know from this document that the Wembley C officer detective Constable large was not
02:20:42 detective Constable large was not briefed so she did not know that she was wasting her time interviewing you and searching your cover address was any thought given by you to the fact that you as a police officer were misleading detective Constable large in this Enterprise so I
02:21:00 large in this Enterprise so I um I actually um so not proactively no I mean sort of for others to worry about that and then could sort of philosophize as to whether um she was being uh misled or not but I I did get the impression
02:21:18 or not but I I did get the impression though regardless of what's been written down here and not being briefed um that um
02:21:21 that um she was privy to more than a cast iron
02:21:32 she was privy to more than a cast iron sort of assertion that she hadn't been briefed and I've got nothing to base that on other than a gut feeling um from her interaction but what's recorded here in this document of your debrief at 700 p.m. is that your account of the
02:21:45 p.m. is that your account of the interviews with her helped confirm that she appeared to be entirely satisfied that you were the genuine Al activist article so there's no hint there is
02:21:56 article so there's no hint there is there of you thinking she was in on it no and I don't think it was categorically I I say um there was just something that either during the course of that
02:22:04 of that discussion um or in a confidential briefing I don't know I can't put my finger on it um and but I didn't
02:22:17 finger on it um and but I didn't overthink um the um from your question the sort of deceiving deception angle because I didn't see it that way you saw this as a
02:22:24 this as a proportionate Enterprise in order to support your cover is that fair way yeah and I also saw it as there having been plenty of sort of serious people up the chain um who'd factored all of these
02:22:38 chain um who'd factored all of these sorts of things in and wasn't privy to a degree of briefing or otherwise could we take that note down please and look at a further note by
02:22:52 please and look at a further note by Robert Lambert now the 5th of June so a few couple of weeks later it's MPS 07461 153 your b157
02:23:03 so and this completes the picture as it were hm1 as to what happened following your arrest and you're being bailed so can we look please at the text it's got Bob Lambert's initials at the bottom and then Keith edmonson's further
02:23:20 then Keith edmonson's further down on Tuesday 4th of June hm1 attended Wembley police station in accordance with his bail conditions he was accompanied by Alf activist privacy he was interviewed by detective Constable Lisa large who told him that no further action would be taken against him she
02:23:31 action would be taken against him she also stated that a pickaxe handle and a Target list would not be returned to him privacy was a witness to the authentic proceedings later that day a small group of Al stalwarts celebrated his narrow
02:23:43 of Al stalwarts celebrated his narrow escape from the clutches of the law so this document seems to suggest um that you had a Target list that was
02:23:59 you had a Target list that was seized do you recall that uh no not not no I don't just I don't recognize that description did you have a list of individuals associated with the leaden street slaughter house in your possession at your cover
02:24:11 possession at your cover address um well unless they appeared in sort of the widely circulating documentation as part of the campaigning literature no and um the conclusion as it were of
02:24:22 no and um the conclusion as it were of this criminal investigation is that no further action was taken against you do you recall that yes did you have um any understanding of whether that was um
02:24:38 understanding of whether that was um agreed upon in advance or whether that was a happy a happy coincidence that that conclusion was reached uh well my assumption was uh that that was part of the plan you appear to have gone to this uh
02:24:57 plan you appear to have gone to this uh return on bail alongside or accompanied by an Alf activist do you recall that uh
02:24:59 that uh yes and then later after that had happened later that day it says a small group of Alf Stewarts celebrated your narrow escape from the clutches of the law so would it be fair to say that the
02:25:16 law so would it be fair to say that the activists with whom you were associating took an interest in your arrest and interview on this occasion yeah
02:25:27 the second paragraph refers to a letter of solidarity from Jeff Shephard and a series of supportive meetings with Brenda MCN as examples of net gains from this operation do you recall a letter of solidarity from Jeff Shepard
02:25:38 Shepard [Music]
02:25:43 [Music] um no but we were in correspondence um I can't quite place that but it would it would have been a natural thing for him to have done and then series of supportive meetings with Brendan MCN does that ring any bells with you um
02:25:55 does that ring any bells with you um well there was that sub there was the conversation with him um that evening um the previous evening we spoke about and what about a series of supportive
02:26:07 what about a series of supportive meetings following that I don't know about a series no I mean it was um
02:26:21 about a series no I mean it was um obviously alluded to um every now and again can I ask you about the final paragraph It's been uh GED over the top of a redaction but it refers uh to Bob Lambert uh discussing a plan to undermine George and it says any
02:26:37 plan to undermine George and it says any progress is to be reported to him before any action is taken and it will be discussed with hn1 do you recall discussions with Bob Lambert about plans to undermine George no
02:27:01 was there a broader SDS strategy as far as you were aware of taking action to undermine targets of undercover deployments by SDS officers uh
02:27:12 deployments by SDS officers uh no do you recall yourself being involved in any action to undermine George no not at
02:27:21 all in order to avert George suspicions uh by this date uh based on the documents we've just looked at a decision was taken not
02:27:32 just looked at a decision was taken not to alert the Police before you attended the home visit on the 20th of February a plan uh was put in place to obtain warrants to search your cover
02:27:51 obtain warrants to search your cover address and vehicle and to arrest you in May did George's suspicions remain not withstanding all of those events um I don't know you don't know if he remained suspicious of you after that no I don't I just um you know by that time we were
02:28:10 I just um you know by that time we were um sort of living with each other um as opposed to sort of knowing how to sort of coexist um while remaining at a distance so uh didn't come up in conversation with me directly uh and I think there was that additional aspect which we've touched on on before
02:28:23 aspect which we've touched on on before about um others finding him quite tricky uh so it was sort of almost in his behaviors slightly undermining his credibility so can you assist us at all as to how it was that Bob Lambert
02:28:41 as to how it was that Bob Lambert appears to have come to be discussing ways potentially to undermine George well I don't know what that means um yeah there were sort of frequent suggestions as to you know how's this going to resolve itself and um uh each time was met with um from my
02:28:57 um uh each time was met with um from my perspective no that's not going to work so it was um and I think you by and large I think I was right it was more sort of living with it uh and um sitting it out as it
02:29:20 were all right can we move on please to look at documents um which relate to you giving evidence as a defense witness on behalf of LTD please consult the cipher list if that doesn't mean anything to you as a cipher thank
02:29:34 you as a cipher thank you and if we start please by looking just briefly touching on two intelligence reports that are attributable to you MPS
02:29:46 attributable to you MPS 07458 33 it's a report of the 13th of May of 1994
02:29:59 it's your c242 so
02:30:33 at H1 we see your unique identifier there on the cover page and can we look please at the second page a report about LTD dated the 13th of May
02:30:51 1994 and on the second page we see reference to her appealing against her conviction under Section Five of the public order act at a Magistrate's court in
02:30:57 in 1994 arising out of her arrest the previous year outside the Brighton Conference Center during an anti-v action
02:31:06 action demonstration so by May 1994 um she is appealing her a conviction that she's received and then if we take that down please and have on the screen MPS 0245
02:31:26 911 that's your C 301 Sir this is the 6th of February of 1995
02:31:31 1995 hm1 another report about LTD and if we look at the body of the report she's recorded now to be
02:31:43 report she's recorded now to be appealing against two recent convictions first relating to an arrest in 1993 in Brighton and the second during a home at visit in the in to to a chesher
02:31:57 visit in the in to to a chesher huntsman um can we take that down please that's just by W background to refresh your memory hm1 and have on the screen MPS
02:32:03 MPS 0526
02:32:05 0526 756 it's your b122 sir and can we turn to page
02:32:16 sir and can we turn to page three and can we zoom in on the text please
02:32:23 uh we have an SDS briefing note hm1 it's got Bob Lambert's sign off on it um concerning your attendance as a defense witness at
02:32:36 court uh the paragraph one provides some background about your deployment can we look thesee are paragraphs uh two and
02:32:48 three it describes LTD as a long-standing and extremely well placed bed Alf activist who has taken you into her confidence resident in privacy she
02:32:59 her confidence resident in privacy she is a frequent visitor to London and one of a small group of activists who are trusted by Al cells operating in different parts of the country having proved herself on active service taking a leading role in an Al incendiary device campaign against department
02:33:14 device campaign against department stores in the 1980s she now operates as a talent Spotter and Courier on April previously April 1994 you drove her to Brighton for an afternoon meeting with Alf contacts
02:33:29 afternoon meeting with Alf contacts aware that she would be attending the magistrates court in the morning to answer a charge under Section Five of the public order act threatening behavior arising from an incident at the animal rights demonstration in Brighton in July
02:33:42 in July 1993 excuse me fellow Al activist privacy based in privacy was due to give evidence um on her
02:33:56 evidence um on her behalf this information about um you driving her to Brighton for the afternoon for a meeting and being aware that she was to attend court that's information that must have come from you isn't it
02:34:05 isn't it hm1 uh
02:34:13 yes can we look please at paragraph uh four
02:34:23 in the event privacy um was unable to attend court and LTD asked detective Sergeant hm1 who had been present on the same demonstration if he would give
02:34:34 same demonstration if he would give evidence on her behalf instead naturally he had little choice and agreed in terms of what he had witnessed in his cover role at the demonstration
02:34:46 in his cover role at the demonstration on the day he gave a brief and accurate account concerning what he had seen without calling into question the Integrity of the police uh evidence that note gives the impression doesn't it hm1 that you were uh in a sense caught
02:35:03 hm1 that you were uh in a sense caught on the spot by this request and so you were left with little choice but to agree to give evidence um well I had a choice um and that was a choice I made yeah but you were on the way it's expressed here you were put on the spot weren't you that's
02:35:18 were put on the spot weren't you that's that's as I would call it yes yeah yeah in fact you had given a witness statement you say in your statement to this inquiry to ltd's um lawyers in
02:35:29 this inquiry to ltd's um lawyers in advance is that right um I don't recall a chronology but I'm not contesting that and you drove her to Brighton that day knowing that she had a court appearance in relation to that
02:35:41 appearance in relation to that matter oh yeah I think it was in connection with that and um meeting others um referred to in the earlier note had you not anticipated at least a risk that you might be asked to give
02:35:54 risk that you might be asked to give evidence as a defense witness on this day
02:36:02 um I can't recall um degree of thought I gave to that was it not the sort of thing that you would have been looking out for in advance so that you could discuss it with your managers
02:36:17 managers um ideally yes wasn't always it's possible to do that can we have up on the screen your witness statement um the section where you deal with this page 229
02:36:39 please so subparagraph this is 502 at
02:36:50 D where you you talk about being asked to fill in for the other individual who didn't turn up you say I found out that day and agreed to give evidence on her
02:37:03 day and agreed to give evidence on her behalf uh because I had been present at the index events and she asked me as a favor to a friend it would have been inconsistent with my cover Persona to refuse especially as I had already submitted a witness statement brackets
02:37:15 submitted a witness statement brackets after discussion with my managers though I was not due to be called so that rather gives the the impression that you you didn't think you would be called as a witness but you had had prior discussion regarding the provision of a witness statement for in
02:37:31 provision of a witness statement for in support of her defair yes do you recall discussing it with your managers now um I can't well I I recall discussing it at some stage um I can't remember the exact chronology um are you able to assist us with the nature of the discussion what was under
02:37:50 discussion what was under consideration um well I can only surmise from what eventually happened was um the the thrust being that all I've contributed here um is nothing that contests um any of the evidence um but is an accurate uh reflection description
02:38:06 is an accurate uh reflection description of what I witnessed that person doing at the time of arrest any reflection that even the name on the
02:38:14 on the statement had the capacity to mislead if it was submitted to the court um well um yeah discuss I mean look my view was that I wasn't misleading um it was accurately reporting and not contesting even um any
02:38:28 reporting and not contesting even um any of the um any of the police evidence per se your name was misleading wasn't it if submitted to the court well so that's um only as much as um the whole the
02:38:43 um only as much as um the whole the whole operation was was misleading in that sense um it was such a benign contribution um in saying that I at no stage did I see um that person engaged in that type of activity um it was right at the sort
02:39:00 of activity um it was right at the sort of really sort of I guess benign end um and was not in any way contesting um or challenging um any of the evidence behind uh the original charge did you see no material
02:39:12 charge did you see no material difference between misleading your targets as to your true identity and misleading a court as to your true identity
02:39:20 identity well a dis you know this was a discussion with the office in which this was you know this was a collective um this is what happened um it was a benign end of the scale doesn't contest
02:39:37 benign end of the scale doesn't contest doesn't challenge um adds very little um hm1 can I ask you to focus on my question which is about giving a false identity to a court did that trouble you at
02:39:46 at all um not in the context um of the operation um and you but for the name everything else was was accurate about what I was
02:40:02 was was accurate about what I was reporting in relation to the allegation and what I was been asked whether I'd seen and presumably your managers gave permission for you to submit a statement to ltd's
02:40:17 to ltd's lawyers knowing that if submitted to the court or if you were called to give evidence you would do so not in your real name yes yes I think because of the because of this articulation of how benign it was and how it didn't challenge
02:40:41 um so the material Factor was the nature of the evidence you were to give and not the name that you were to give yeah I think it was um as I recall it was um me saying I didn't see um any of the activity being described
02:40:54 any of the activity being described leading up to um the arrest which is factually true it wasn't it wasn't saying it didn't happen if we go back to the briefing note that Bob Lambert put together please MPS 05
02:41:08 26756 at page
02:41:12 three so that was at your b122
02:41:24 and it gives a summary of your evidence that was given to the court on Friday afternoon the 11th of June 1993 he was one of 30 or more
02:41:36 June 1993 he was one of 30 or more demonstrators present during a three-day demonstration outside the Brighton Conference Center where a group of vivisectors were holding an annual conference it was a peaceful but
02:41:48 conference it was a peaceful but passionate protest when Viv sectors entered or left the building they were subjected to a hail of abuse from protesters he saw Viv sectors confronted can we go over the page
02:42:05 please confronted by female demonstrators who inter Alia blew whistles close to their faces asked if he had seen the defendant LTD blow a whistle close to the face of an individual leaving the conference
02:42:17 an individual leaving the conference center he answered truthfully that he had not asked if he had seen the defendant cautioned for using insulting words by the arresting officer prior to the alleged incident again he answered
02:42:31 the alleged incident again he answered that he had not asked if he had seen the defendant throw away a whistle upon or immediately after arrest he replied that he had not seen her dispose of such an item can we carry on
02:42:50 item can we carry on please questioned about his proximity to the defendant during the demonst rtion he stated that to the best of his recollection he had been with her at the material
02:42:56 material times six it will be readily appreciated that ltd's defense consisted of mistaken identity that the police officer mistook her for a fellow
02:43:07 her for a fellow demonstrator who may well have been blowing a whistle close to the face of a Viv
02:43:15 Viv sector the purpose of your evidence to the effect that you were with her at all material times and did not see her do the things that the police were alleging that she did was
02:43:33 police were alleging that she did was inevitably to undermine the prosecution case wasn't it um so I don't remember being as categorical as linking my presence to her at all material times these were sort of you know moving
02:43:48 these were sort of you know moving feasts of people moving around um and sort of quite sort of
02:43:57 volatile um scenario so those um what I'm claiming not to have seen is absolutely accurate yes you didn't see the things that the police were saying she did yeah but I was I'm not saying I'm
02:44:10 did yeah but I was I'm not saying I'm not saying that um I I could have missed um and therefore because I was with her at all times which I couldn't have been at all times um there wasn't an occasion where she did it so I wasn't contesting that but Lambert wasn't in court when
02:44:23 that but Lambert wasn't in court when you gave evidence was he well I don't believe so and so the information included in this note about the evidence you gave can only have come from you
02:44:34 you gave can only have come from you can't it well I didn't write that note um so as we've um sort of alluded to many times um other than written by me which it
02:44:44 which it wasn't uh I would not have got to see this that description did you you give a copy of the witness statement you had given to ltd's lawyers to your
02:44:55 given to ltd's lawyers to your managers um I don't believe I had the opportunity to do that I don't recall doing
02:45:16 that and so either Mr Lambert has made up that you gave evidence that you were with her at the material times or that must have come from you those are the two options aren't they well I all I know is um that uh I could not be certain that I was with her at every moment of that demonstration um to account for her conduct if that was the nature of your
02:45:30 conduct if that was the nature of your evidence do you agree it wouldn't have been terribly helpful to ltd's defense well all well I all I can say is what I
02:45:46 what I um is what I did say and it was part of my articulation of it not being in any way to
02:45:47 way to challenge um or rather dis headon uh but was more accurate articulation of what I what I what I
02:46:02 articulation of what I what I what I witnessed so yeah not not tremendously helpful um but helpful to a degree um that was the balance and so to that degree you were giving evidence favorable to the defense and necessarily unfavorable to the
02:46:17 and necessarily unfavorable to the prosecution and the police case weren't you well I mean I didn't I didn't articulate in that way um I was satisfied I was giving accurately what I saw and what I didn't
02:46:35 see did you consider at any stage that by presenting yourself as a fellow demonstrator rather than a police officer that in itself misled the court U no I didn't I mean that was absolutely Central
02:46:47 absolutely Central to um
02:46:57 to um sort of um every day of my operation but with regard to the course of Criminal Justice was it not relevant for the magistrates to know that the person they were hearing from was a police officer and not simply a friend of and fellow demonstrator with the defendant
02:47:09 fellow demonstrator with the defendant in the case well that was for the wider office to manage um this wasn't you know this I didn't set a precedent in doing this uh so the question isn't whether
02:47:24 this uh so the question isn't whether you set to president hm1 the question is whether you considered and reflected on that aspect of misleading the cause um no the only way of answering in the way I just did is I put my faith in
02:47:37 the way I just did is I put my faith in the office that this would have been um this type of argument would have been had um and adjudicated on to the satisfaction of the of the organization did you not at any time exercise any individual judgment in the course of
02:47:53 individual judgment in the course of this U well for 0 95% of the time that's exactly what I was doing in connection with giving evidence on for LTD um yeah it's how I got to the this is right at the benign end
02:48:08 is right at the benign end of um any sort of uh moral professional maze on this particular issue of misleading or not misleading um so yeah that was a that was a judgment that was owned by me um articulated by me and conveyed um to the office in that way but but LTD
02:48:27 office in that way but but LTD unbeknownst to her had a police officer who could come to court to say that he didn't see her do the things that another police officer was saying she did that that wasn't allowing the course of Justice to progress as it should was
02:48:42 of Justice to progress as it should was it well I wasn't saying that she didn't do what it was claimed she did I was I was claiming that I didn't see it happen which was factually true and that is evidence of assistance to the
02:48:53 is evidence of assistance to the defendant in the case isn't it well it's accurately um a sworn statement to the
02:49:04 accurately um a sworn statement to the effect that that is absolutely true are you reluctant to accept that you gave evidence in a case that was of assistance to the defense well I didn't it wasn't for me to make that um to make that judgment
02:49:15 to make that um to make that judgment yes I was doing it um please will you do this you were there can you write what you saw Yes I did that it was accurate it is what I saw um regardless of who that helped or not what it didn't do uh was um
02:49:27 do uh was um contest um or make allegations um that the evidence for the prosecution was in any way
02:49:41 faulty so saying that you didn't see LTD do the things that the police said she did in your view didn't contest the evidence for the prosecution at all well it doesn't um because it's saying that it implicitly it could have happened when at moments when when I didn't have
02:49:57 when at moments when when I didn't have full sight and visibility and hearing um of the person concerned if we return to the note that Bob Lambert wrote paragraph 7 asserts
02:50:09 Bob Lambert wrote paragraph 7 asserts that your evidence was accepted without serious
02:50:10 serious Challenge and LTD was duly found guilty if the evidence of a defense witness was accept Ed without
02:50:24 challenge well let me ask in a different way the two assertions that your evidence as a defense witness was accepted without serious Challenge and LTD was duly found guilty aren't those two things
02:50:40 inconsistent um well I don't see how um well if a police officer gave evidence for the prosecution saying that he saw LTD doing the acts alleged and you gave
02:50:52 LTD doing the acts alleged and you gave evidence saying you were with her at the material times and you didn't see her doing the acts alleged and she was found guilty of doing the acts alleged then how could your evidence have been accepted so I
02:51:03 your evidence have been accepted so I don't I don't recall using the words at the material
02:51:15 time so you gave evidence that you weren't with her necessarily at all times and and you didn't see her doing the things alleged um yes as I keep coming back to
02:51:27 um paragraph uh 10 please of this
02:51:44 document Mr Lambert concluded that he was satisfied that you had behaved in a thoroughly professional manner throughout and maintained cover in the best
02:51:49 best traditions of the
02:51:56 SDS uh there's been an ination that an appeal would be lodged and his conclusion is that you might be called to give evidence on her behalf again but in operational terms
02:52:12 behalf again but in operational terms that would pose no problems for the SDS do you agree with the conclusion that you acted th in a thoroughly professional manner throughout in regard to these criminal proceedings yes and do you agree that if asked to
02:52:23 yes and do you agree that if asked to give evidence again on appeal it would pose no problems for the SDS oh well if that was if that was um should that event have taken place which I don't think it did um yes it would have been it would have been an issue to
02:52:35 have been it would have been an issue to work through uh but I think that line is with reference to this will be addressed in due
02:52:41 in due course could we have a look please um over the I think it's over the page on this document thank
02:52:59 you paragraph 12 asserts the SDS policy and precedent is clear in respect to field officers attending Court as defendants but the same cannot be said in respect of attendance at court as defense
02:53:08 defense Witnesses SDS policy guidelines regarding participation in crime address the subject but clearly not in the context of this case which consists of a
02:53:24 context of this case which consists of a minor public order offense can we scroll down to Pages six and seven of this document which contain those SDS policy guidelines regarding participation in crime thank
02:53:43 you and could we look please at the bottom of the first uh page to start with just for the context so where an SDS officer obtains information about about the intention of others to commit a crime in which they intend he she shall play A Part his her participation will only be allowed to
02:53:55 participation will only be allowed to continue where and then sub paragraph
02:54:08 e which is the material part here at no time will an SDS officer commit himself or herself to a course to mislead a court this could include appearing on
02:54:20 court this could include appearing on behalf of a defendant as a witness were you aware of those guidelines at the time uh not specifically no do you consider that anything about that is unclear on the question of
02:54:31 that is unclear on the question of whether or not you were permitted to mislead a
02:54:33 mislead a court um well it's got plenty of um ambiguity there um as to it's got the word could um and it leaves room for um a caseby casee discussion of
02:54:46 for um a caseby casee discussion of whether something's in breach of uh or Falls within those guidelines I'm asking you about the first sentence at no time
02:54:57 you about the first sentence at no time will an SDS officer commit himself to a course to mislead a court is there anything ambiguous in your mind about that
02:55:04 that guideline um no did you not mislead the court if or nothing else as to your real name and
02:55:15 nothing else as to your real name and the fact that you were a police officer um no I don't consider um in the entirety of this event and what I was contributing um to be um a
02:55:27 contributing um to be um a misleading right so turning up and saying I'm Matt rer a fellow demonstrator and animal rights activist was not misleading the court um well I wasn't misleading a
02:55:39 court um well I wasn't misleading a court in terms of the accuracy of the evidence or contesting um any of the police evidence so your view is that the course of conduct you
02:55:51 course of conduct you uh engaged in was not contrary to this guideline um on balance absolutely
02:56:10 yes the guiding principle um in regard to whether or not it was appropriate for you to give evidence on behalf of the defense in this case
02:56:20 appears to have been but correct me if I'm wrong appears to have been the importance of you maintaining cover would that be fair yes rather than any concern about
02:56:32 yes rather than any concern about whether or not the criminal justice system was um allowed to go or allowed to proceed as it
02:56:40 as it should um no I think it it always operated within that uh within those parameters
02:56:55 there is no um well the inquiry has located no written report from you of the events of the day when you gave evidence at the magistrates court so when you uh drove LTD to Brighton can you think of why you might not have
02:57:09 you think of why you might not have submitted a report of the events of that day um no I sorry no explanation for that if we um go back up please um oh sorry go over to page 11 of this same
02:57:23 sorry go over to page 11 of this same document that's on the screen so still notes from Bob Lambert um your b122 sir still MPS 0526 756 thank
02:57:36 756 thank you um we find a note from um it's October I think
02:57:43 1995 um thank you and it is still contemplated based on paragraph one of this report that you might give evidence in the Crown Court as a defense witness for LTD on her
02:57:56 as a defense witness for LTD on her appeal do you remember that remaining a
02:58:04 possibility yes no yes yes it's is coming back to
02:58:13 me paragraph three asserts that you had been suitably advised as to your course of conduct and reminded of the relevant guidelines when you gave your witness
02:58:24 guidelines when you gave your witness statement to the inquiry you you said that you weren't reminded of the relevant guidelines is that right I I I don't remember being shown relevant guidelines No Looking Back might have assisted if
02:58:38 No Looking Back might have assisted if you had been shown those guidelines or do you think you would have taken the same course yeah um for for this particular scenario um I would well I would have taken the same course I'm fairly certain because even looking at them now
02:58:49 them now um I don't think it breaches those guidelines can we take that down please and have up MPS 02 45731 it's your c405
02:59:02 45731 it's your c405 sir just to complete the picture um hm1 this is a report uh from uh in fact that it's dated the 29th of November 1995 at the
02:59:15 1995 at the bottom um and uh the second
02:59:32 uh the second paragraph please it's a report a wider report but it records uh that LTD had planned to travel to a meeting to coincide with her appeal but that changed because in the absence of one of her Witnesses privacy uh she negotiated a further
02:59:47 uh she negotiated a further adjournment um that suggests doesn't it that she hadn't an alternative or additional witness available to her
03:00:00 potentially um yes do you recall that being the case um well she talks about one of her Witnesses no idea how many right so do you recall being one of many defense
03:00:06 defense Witnesses uh no I have no no recollection of that at all how many I was among if you had been if there were other Witnesses um available to her
03:00:21 other Witnesses um available to her would that have affected your decision about whether or not to go ahead and give evidence on her behalf what originally or for the in either case um well that isn't well I don't know I mean that's not what transpired
03:00:34 know I mean that's not what transpired she asked me specifically knew I'd been there um and that was the beginning of the story as it
03:00:45 were I think your your recollection is it that that you didn't end up giving evidence in the Crown Court
03:00:48 Court um yeah
03:00:54 um yeah I'm if I did that's completely I'm gone for my memory I don't believe ever stepping fo inside a crown cours and just for completeness if we put on the screen please MPS 07 32480 that's your b139
03:01:12 sir and page two please
03:01:21 and particularly the the paragraph closer to the top of the
03:01:32 page we see a minute from detective Chief Inspector Edmonson hm1 on the 21st of
03:01:36 of November noting that ltd's appeal had been adjourned until January uh
03:01:48 1996 but no indication there of whether it was still expected the you would give evidence may or may not assist you in your recollection as to whether you did but for completeness I put that up to refresh your
03:02:00 refresh your memory um no thank you I um just speaking the whole
03:02:08 thing um did it go ahead on January 96 do we know the inquiry hasn't found any records to assist either way hm yeah um
03:02:19 records to assist either way hm yeah um gosh um I really don't believe that took place then or that I was I was I couldn't have been involved in that do you have any recollection of giving evidence in a Crown Court in your cover
03:02:32 evidence in a Crown Court in your cover identity no no it's what I went a couple of sentences ago I never Ste foot in inside a Crown Court in this context all right thank you can we take that down um you have also given evidence to the inquiry um in your written statement recalling that you
03:02:50 written statement recalling that you gave evidence on behalf of Jeff Shephard in respect of a similar offense so section five public order act offense can we have on the screen please page 235 of your witness
03:03:13 statement in fact we start the page before just to have the context thank you paragraph uh 512 by reference to notes of the operation Hearn debrief with you which record you saying that the only time you remembered appearing Court remembered
03:03:29 remembered appearing Court remembered appearing in court was as a witness for a case when Jeff Shephard was arrested outside Harrod's for a public order offense whilst wearing a mask I appeared as a witness and told them that I had attended the protest with Shepherd for a peaceful protest I would have answered
03:03:40 peaceful protest I would have answered the questions truthfully this was a true account of the shepherd trial and a true account of my memory at the time as the quiry has not located any written
03:03:51 quiry has not located any written records relating to an incident matching this description I will describe these events in so far as I am able to before I go to that detail hm1 how confident are you in this recollection even in the absence of any written record Being
03:04:03 absence of any written record Being found um yeah I know it there was um confusion probably on my part whether it was harro's or whether it was um um a fur shop uh but in terms of the the
03:04:17 fur shop uh but in terms of the the court incident um then yes I do have recollection of this and could we look then please at what you say about it in the sub paragraphs on that page that
03:04:29 follows okay so you recall it being before you gave evidence on behalf of
03:04:38 LTD you were shown some information that indicated he was arrested outside a first shop in June
03:04:46 1993 and you say at sub paragraph C at the time of Jeff Shepherd's arrest we were holding up anti fur placards and giving out leaflets I had not seen or heard a particular incident that led to the arrest though I saw the arrest he
03:04:58 the arrest though I saw the arrest he was arrested for a public order offense and
03:04:59 and charged can we go on
03:05:10 please when the case went to court I agreed to give evidence on Jeff's behalf because he asked me to in my evidence I said I had not witnessed the relevant conduct but I admitted it was noisy thus I was not lying nor was I undermining police evidence I've asked you lots of
03:05:24 police evidence I've asked you lots of questions on this topic with LTD but but to cover it in this uh scenario is your recollection when you were asked by Jeff sheeper to give evidence on his behalf that that you
03:05:36 evidence on his behalf that that you were already at court or that you were asked in advance of the trial um in
03:05:49 asked in advance of the trial um in advance and um was it not possible for you to find um a way out of having having to give evidence in his defense not credibly because um I was there with him but based on what you say in your statement you had not witnessed the relevant
03:06:04 you had not witnessed the relevant conduct so could you not have said to Mr Shephard I'd love to help but I didn't see what happened before your arrest um could have done it would have been pretty
03:06:11 pretty weak weaker than giving evidence which was not terribly helpful to his defense
03:06:22 was not terribly helpful to his defense um well it was giving evidence based on what I saw so and I did I did say that um in terms of it what was General atmosphere was it was noisy we were holding up playards which were sometimes quite
03:06:33 quite provocative um but that that wouldn't have assisted Mr Shephard's defense though would it that evidence um no but he asked me to um and I did um and
03:06:47 he asked me to um and I did um and that's what's happened but in terms of um getting out of it um it would have been pretty feeble and I would um have considered had I asked to be pretty inexplicable that if
03:06:58 asked to be pretty inexplicable that if you were there you know you wouldn't at least be prepared to turn up and give give evidence of what you saw even if you saw nothing of the relevant
03:07:07 relevant conduct well so there was General conduct which um you um he knew would not be necessarily helpful so noisy um you know um provocative photos um to
03:07:23 you know um provocative photos um to passes by no one denied that um I didn't deny that
03:07:24 deny that um spec sorry go what what was it you could say that could assist Mr Shepard's defense on this occasion um that in terms of the um I
03:07:40 occasion um that in terms of the um I think there was reference to um I really can't remember but in specifically the incident that led up to his arrest um I um I wasn't aware of I wasn't aware what what was different in
03:07:57 wasn't aware what what was different in that particular moment um than had been sort of more or less the case for the whole of the the whole of the protest does that mean you gave evidence that you didn't witness any conduct justifying his arrest no because I I'd gone as far as
03:08:16 arrest no because I I'd gone as far as saying look at any stage this is this is borderline threatening behavior for all of us um when you're sort of Fairly noisy um
03:08:20 noisy um in this sort of if you like very respectable part of London to unsuspecting passes by with posters of provocative pictures linked to the fur trade um it is quite a threatening environment so that was that was there
03:08:33 environment so that was that was there from you know that that was there from me
03:08:34 me off but in terms of Mr Shephard's conduct are you saying your evidence was that you didn't see him doing anything differently from anyone else um not at the moment of arrest no
03:08:47 else um not at the moment of arrest no no that that would have under under mind the prosecution case wouldn't it well all I agreed to do was talk about what I
03:08:59 saw paragraph subparagraph e says that you cannot recall the detail of conversations with managers before and after this case but the emphasis was on not misleading the court does it do we take
03:09:10 misleading the court does it do we take it from that that you recall that there were conversations with managers just not the detail of them yes and in terms of all of the things I've asked you about in relation to giving evidence from
03:09:22 from LTD the fact that it wasn't your true identity the fact that you wouldn't disclose you were a police officer were those all things considered similarly in this case as you've explained they were
03:09:34 this case as you've explained they were considered yesd case yeah this this was not taken lightly this was not a a casual um event I mean never mind just for the reasons we were talking about you know the actual um it's actually
03:09:46 you know the actual um it's actually quite intimidating um turning up in that scenario
03:09:51 scenario um with against the background of everything we're discussing here and so that was the subject of discussions with your managers yes and what about the topic in terms of misleading the court do you remember
03:10:02 misleading the court do you remember what was discussed in connection with that um well I I absolutely considered I'd done enough in explaining the
03:10:13 I'd done enough in explaining the scenario and this this thread of um I would not be shying away um from you know the noise slightly threatening um in the eyes of others nature um of what was on
03:10:27 was on show uh and I also uh wouldn't be contesting directly whatever the evidence was against him that led to his arrest but saying that you didn't see the conduct that he was charged
03:10:44 with does have that effect doesn't yeah no but I mean that could have that could have it was borderline from you know borderline from the moment we got there really um and so you know one bit of
03:11:02 really um and so you know one bit of Confrontation one bit of angry language one gesture I mean I I didn't spot the actual Catalyst um that led to um his arrest for look let's face it was a fairly minor at the softer end um of a breach of public order what's the
03:11:13 breach of public order what's the relevance of it being a minor offense in your consideration of this well is part of a story um is um
03:11:22 um is one if you put the whole scenario together this was not a big event in terms of anything that I would like to have a material contribution to other than supporting and report and giving
03:11:41 than supporting and report and giving evidence accurately as to what happened on with regards to a charge of I think it was um threatening behavior um I believe it might have been The Wider public order offense it was the whole the whole sort of you
03:11:56 it was the whole the whole sort of you know the whole whole way of life in this is is gray I accept um but wherever you get to in this articulation of um judgments to be called this was at the softer benign end um of the gray
03:12:07 softer benign end um of the gray area can I can I ask it this way so you have the opportunity to comment was it the case that a balancing exercise was being done and it was considered less serious
03:12:20 done and it was considered less serious to mislead the court as to your identity and the fact you were a police officer if the charge was less serious than it would be if the charge was more serious no I think no I don't I don't think it
03:12:33 no I think no I don't I don't think it was that it was that binary um I think the key point was um misleading the court in terms of the fabrication of One's Own evidence um was not the issue here because that isn't what was
03:12:48 here because that isn't what was happening um it was accurately and you um under oath describing and not even shying away from the sort of slightly threatening environment that is presented um all it was saying was didn't see and couldn't help with when
03:13:00 didn't see and couldn't help with when questioned about it um what the Catalyst for actually led to his arrest I mean to be honest you know I I don't think I was even very helpful um to uh Mr shepher
03:13:16 even very helpful um to uh Mr shepher and even going as far as talking about the noise and the sort of threatening sort of the slightly shocking photos that were on display to people in this part of
03:13:28 London right thank you hm1 I wonder if that's an appropriate time for a lunch break certainly um we'll now um break for lunch uh it's slightly after 1:00 now can we resume at 2 minutes past 2 all
03:13:46 right for