Ellie, granted anonymity, testifies about her 17-year deceptive relationship with undercover officer HN16 'James Straven' (James Thomson). She describes how he pursued her when she was vulnerable at age 21, maintained the relationship for 16 years after his deployment ended, and only revealed his true identity in 2018.
00:26:59 [cough]
00:27:08 Good morning everybody. Uh we have an early start today um to accommodate our next witness Ellie. Um, those of you with uh mobile devices may use them to report what you've heard in the hearing room when 10 minutes or more have
00:27:22 room when 10 minutes or more have elapsed, but you may not use them for uh recording or photography. Yes. Could the witness be sworn, please? Good morning, Ellie. I'm the usher
00:27:37 Good morning, Ellie. I'm the usher and I'm going to take you through the affirmation. Can you hear me? Okay, I can. Yes. Thank you. Um, please can you repeat after me? I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:27:48 sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:27:59 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. Thank you.
00:28:12 Thank you. Good morning, Ellie. Um, I know that giving evidence is not everybody's cup of tea and it may not be yours. If ever you need a break, just say so and we will stop and pause to let you have a break. We're going to have a break
00:28:26 break. We're going to have a break anyway at about half 10 or 15 minutes. It's
00:28:28 It's very kind. Thank you. Yes.
00:28:34 Yes. Good morning, sir. Um, so I'm not going to ask the witness her name because she's been granted anonymity. Um, I'll refer to you as Ellie throughout because that's the cipher that has been given to you by this
00:28:45 that has been given to you by this inquiry. And can you confirm that's correct?
00:28:46 correct? That is correct. Um, you gave a witness statement to this inquiry dated the 29th of May, 2025. Um that reference is UCPI 38206.
00:29:04 Uh do you recognize that that is your statement? Yes.
00:29:09 Yes. And it consists of 38 pages. You've signed and dated the last page. I'm not going to bring it up on the screen, but I think you've seen that recently.
00:29:21 I think you've seen that recently. And can you confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? I can. Yes. And that will stand as your written evidence of the inquiry. Understood.
00:29:36 Understood. Now, the statement addresses your experience of the man you knew as James Straven, whose real name is James Thompson and is also known to the to this inquiry by the cipher HN16.
00:29:50 this inquiry by the cipher HN16. His code name for his SDS operation was Magenta Triangle. Are you content for me to refer to him as James throughout? Yes, that's fine.
00:30:07 Yes, that's fine. We know that he was deployed as an undercover officer from 1997 to 2002. And you knew him in his undercover identity during the last two years of that operation from about 2000 to 2002. Is that right?
00:30:26 Yes. My memory is a is a bit shaky from back then. It was either 2000 or it started 2001 to 2002. Okay. We can go into that in a bit more detail. And of course, you also knew him for a further 16 years after his
00:30:39 for a further 16 years after his deployment ended. Is that right? Yes.
00:30:41 Yes. So, what I'll do today is ask you questions about some parts of your witness statement and go into a little bit more detail in some of those aspects. Okay.
00:30:52 aspects. Okay. Okay.
00:31:00 Okay. Um, if we can start with your background and your interest in animal welfare. Um, I think we start you start your
00:31:11 Um, I think we start you start your evidence about 1998 when you were about 18 years old and I think you were in your last year of college. Is that right?
00:31:12 right? Yes.
00:31:13 Yes. Yes.
00:31:16 Yes. And do you want to tell us a little bit about what you were doing at that time? Um, I had begun volunteering at a local wildlife hospital. Um, I volunteered there for um, a few
00:31:31 Um, I volunteered there for um, a few years. Then I was taken on part-time and then I was taken on full-time. Okay. And whilst volunteering there, is that where you met Wendy? Correct. Yes. She was also taken on um part-time and then full-time.
00:31:44 part-time and then full-time. And why was it that you were volunteering at the wildlife hospital?
00:32:02 volunteering at the wildlife hospital? I had an interest in animal welfare. Um I was considering going on and doing and working in that in that area. Um so I thought it would be good experience. Okay. Um
00:32:07 Okay. Um can we take it that you you cared quite a lot for animals? Yeah, I have a soft spot for them. Okay.
00:32:15 Okay. Um, you say that you first started as a
00:32:26 Um, you say that you first started as a in a volunteer position and and then you went on to be full-time employed at the hospital. Can you recall when that position changed? Oh, um,
00:32:38 I I can hazard a guess around about 2000 2001.
00:32:44 2001. Um, round about then I went full-time. Okay. And your your friend at the hospital was Wendy. Um can you describe uh how uh the common interest that you
00:32:55 uh how uh the common interest that you had and also the differences between you and Wendy in terms of interest? So we we were both roughly we were both roughly the same age. Um we were the only two people that were hired. Um we
00:33:10 only two people that were hired. Um we got on quite well pretty much right from the start. She I knew she was very passionate about animals. I knew she was vegan. Um and I knew she was quite into animal rights. Um whereas I was more
00:33:21 animal rights. Um whereas I was more animal welfare side of things. But you know despite that we we got on very well and we became firm friends quite quickly.
00:33:35 quickly. Um you say she was in animal rights. Um would you describe her as an animal rights activist?
00:33:48 from my limited understanding then um yes I knew she um I knew she gave talks I knew she went to demos um and then later on I knew she went hunting um James uh Thompson in his witness statement
00:34:00 statement for your references at paragraph 291 he describes you as an animal welfare sympathizer but not an extremist or an activist is Is that fair?
00:34:11 activist is Is that fair? Yes, I would say that was fair. Um, and is it right then that you didn't go on uh uh uh uh to to uh go to talks,
00:34:24 go on uh uh uh uh to to uh go to talks, animal rights uh events and that sort of thing?
00:34:26 thing? I think there were there was one demonstration I went to from work, but
00:34:37 demonstration I went to from work, but that was to hand out leaflets to drum up some that the wildlife hospital was a charity. So that was to hand out leaflets at this demo to get some support for the charity. And I think I went out with Wendy.
00:34:49 went out with Wendy. I tried hunt sabbing maybe three times. Okay. That that was my whole extent.
00:35:01 Okay. That that was my whole extent. Okay. And and when you say you went on about three hunt stabs, that was between the dates of two uh 1998 and 2002, I think you say in your witness statement. Yeah. I can't remember the exact dates. I'm sorry. But within that era. Yeah.
00:35:17 I'm sorry. But within that era. Yeah. Um and and was that really the extent of your involvement?
00:48:38 of the accommodation you were in attached to the wildlife hospital and into what had been Wendy's mom's house in early 2001. Is that right? That's right. Yes.
00:48:50 That's right. Yes. Um, and you said earlier that um, Wendy had been asked by James, is that right, to to exchange phone numbers or to get your phone number?
00:49:03 your phone number? Yes.
00:49:06 Yes. Uh, is that Sorry. Go on. Sorry. No, no, you're good. Is that how um you came to be in further contact with James?
00:49:21 contact with James? Yes. I can't remember who initiated the first contact, but yes, that's that's how we started. When you say you can't remember who initiated the first uh contact, what do you mean by that? Sorry, I can't remember who would have text who first.
00:49:38 text who first. Okay. Um, when you say that it it was James who asked Wendy, um, how how did that come about? Do you recall that or
00:49:49 I remember her saying that he was interested in me and um would I be interested in maybe going out with him.
00:50:00 with him. So he made the first step in that regard.
00:50:03 regard. I see what you mean. Yes, he did. Okay.
00:50:11 Okay. Um and and so Wendy then uh uh gave him your phone number. and gave you his phone number. Is that right?
00:50:18 right? I think so. Okay. And then at some point either one of you contacted the other to arrange a first meet. Correct.
00:50:26 Correct. Okay.
00:50:29 Okay. Um,
00:50:42 we understand from Sara who gave evidence to the inquiry last week that she had left the UK and moved abroad around March 2001. Um, can you recall when you first started to meet up with James?
00:50:56 started to meet up with James? Not with any accuracy. I can't. I'm sorry.
00:50:57 sorry. Okay.
00:51:02 Okay. Um, Sara recalls that within a few weeks of moving away, she heard news that James had started a new relationship with you. And in James's witness
00:51:14 with you. And in James's witness statement, and for the record it is paragraph 295, he says, "The approximate period of time that we were involved in a sexual
00:51:29 that we were involved in a sexual relationship was from April or May 2001 until my deployment ceased in early 2002.
00:51:31 2002. that April or May 2001, was that when the relationship developed into a sexual relationship or do you have a different recollection?
00:51:49 Um, as in is that when we started dating? Yeah. What do you what do you remember about the timings of when you first met to dating to then a sexual relationship?
00:52:12 to dating to then a sexual relationship? I was I was pretty sure I was living in Wendy's mom's house. Um I think I had left the Wildlife Hospital at that point.
00:52:14 point. Um
00:52:20 Um there was a there was a gap from when we started dating to when we first started sleeping together cuz there was an issue of um contraceptive. Okay.
00:52:32 Okay. I can ask you a bit about that in a moment.
00:52:33 moment. Okay.
00:52:40 Okay. Okay. So we're talking a matter of a few weeks, couple of months, something like that. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm so sorry. No, that's okay. Don't apologize at all. Um, is it right you were about 21 by
00:52:55 Um, is it right you were about 21 by that stage? 2000 early 2001 you were 21. 21, correct? Yeah. How would you describe your character? What kind of a 21year-old were you? I've
00:53:07 I've an awkward, geeky, naive, possibly a bit sheltered 21-year-old. Um,
00:53:25 Um, I'd moved out of home and moved into the wildlife hospital and that was my first step into the real world and I had screwed that up quite spectacularly. And then turns out I was kind of
00:53:36 And then turns out I was kind of homeless, living in a friend's house. Um,
00:53:41 Um, not quite sure what was going on. Um, I was I was I was often sort of told by the um by the guy that we worked with, that colleague, that I was very naive.
00:53:53 that colleague, that I was very naive. And I think much as I hate to admit it, he was right. When you say you screwed that up spectacularly, are you referring to actually what that colleague was doing and how he was
00:54:04 colleague was doing and how he was treating you? Yeah, I've just walked straight into a bad situation and then ended up homeless within what within a
00:54:15 ended up homeless within what within a period of a year of moving out. It was fairly spectacular. So, how were you feeling or coping at that time?
00:54:30 When I left the wildlife hospital, I looking back in hindsight, I wasn't great. I was I would cry at the drop of a hat. A simple task that should have
00:54:45 a hat. A simple task that should have taken 5 minutes seemed to take half an hour. I was sleeping all the time. Didn't have a lot of motivation. Um I was quite underweight. I remember that. Um, and I just when I when I moved into Wendy's, I ended up pretty much I didn't leave
00:55:00 I ended up pretty much I didn't leave the house for about a week. I think I just slept constantly.
00:55:07 And then after that, I ended up I had to start again. So, sorry, that's my dog. I'm so sorry. It's all right. Yeah.
00:55:29 So that's the situation you were in early 2000 and one and that's when James and and you started dating. Yes, correct. Um how often were you seeing each other at that early stage in your relationship?
00:55:41 It was quite a um wasn't particularly intense. So we would only really see each other maybe once a week, twice a week, pretty much for the entire relationship. It was never
00:55:52 It was never there texting and calling in between, but we would only really meet up once or twice a week maximum. And what sort of things would would you do in terms of uh going out and dating?
00:56:08 A lot of the time it would it be um going out for meals. um talking, getting to know each other, cinema, just your normal standard dating.
00:56:25 Um did it progress to going away for weekends or anything like that? Eventually it did. And not not right at the beginning, but then yeah, as time
00:56:38 the beginning, but then yeah, as time went on, he had a motorbike. I'd always wanted a motorbike, so we would go out for sort of day trips. We would ride around. I'd be perched on the back. Um sometimes we went and stayed in an
00:56:51 sometimes we went and stayed in an Airbnb overnight. We'd go away and then come back. Um that sort of happened later on.
00:57:03 How old did you understand him to be? Yes, initially I believed he was 33 years old
00:57:11 years old and then there was an incident. He was he was always he always seemed quite conscious of the age gap. Um there was an incident when we were having dinner and he mentioned his children and I worked out
00:57:26 children and I worked out that he would have been quite young when he'd had his first child and that had made him a bit uncomfortable and it was a I can't remember how long
00:57:42 and it was a I can't remember how long it was after that. not that long. I got some random phone call from him saying that he'd spoken to Sara and she had pointed out that he'd got his age wrong and he was actually 36 and not 33.
00:57:54 and he was actually 36 and not 33. And I I thought he was I thought he obviously always knew his age. He just had lied to me about his age because he was conscious of the age difference. But he was actually 36 years old.
00:58:08 he was actually 36 years old. Okay. And uh we heard evidence from Sara last Friday that she doesn't believe that that conversation between her and James actually happened because she always understood that he was uh uh 2
00:58:19 always understood that he was uh uh 2 years younger than her and at the time she was 35. So that would make him 33. That was her understanding.
00:58:32 That was her understanding. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I I did speak to her and she I did ask her about this conversation and she said to me that She it never happened but I didn't know that she also thought he was 33. Okay.
00:58:42 Okay. Um we understand as the inquiry that in fact he was 37 years old when you first started dating which would make him about 16 years your senior.
00:58:54 about 16 years your senior. Yes. That's awkward. Yes. Um, did his being older cause you any real concern at the time
00:59:08 when I thought he was 33?
00:59:15 That was sort of the upper limit. I know um my sister had a concern about that, but I was I was okay with him being 33. When I found out he was 36,
00:59:31 that was a that was that was an it was it was an issue, but at that point we were dating and I liked him and it wasn't an issue enough to end it.
00:59:43 it. Um can we have up on screen please uh the tradecraft manual extract which is MPS0527597
01:00:00 at page 27 paragraph 5.6.3 6.3. And this is the extract that has been
01:00:09 And this is the extract that has been quoted a few times before, but it says, "While you may try to avoid any sexual encounter, there may come a time when your lack of interest may become suspicious. In these circumstances, you can either try to introduce an appropriate male or female from your own relations or friends to meet the
01:00:22 relations or friends to meet the weareries on a few occasions or ask the office if they can find an exSDS operative to fill such a role. Both options are fraught with difficulty and
01:00:41 options are fraught with difficulty and you must make your own mind up about how to proceed. If you have no other option but to become involved with the weary, you should try to have a fleeting disastrous re relationship with individuals who are not important to your sources of information. One cannot be involved with the weary in a relationship for a period of time
01:00:54 a relationship for a period of time without risking serious consequences. Um that can be taken down. Thank you.
01:01:06 knowing how your relationship started with James and how long it went on for and knowing just how important you were to Wendy in terms of the friendship and living with her. Um
01:01:24 living with her. Um it doesn't appear to be that he complied with that advice in the trade craft manual. Would you agree that that's fair?
01:01:33 fair? I would agree that that's fair both for Sara and myself. Okay. Your evidence is clear, I think, that he did the chasing. You weren't chasing him initially.
01:01:44 initially. Correct.
01:01:54 Correct. And that you were an important source, an important, you had an important relationship with his source of information, that being Wendy. Is that right? Yes. I gave him unfettered access to her residence. Okay. So, putting aside for a moment that the the legal and ethical
01:02:11 moment that the the legal and ethical value of that tradecraftraft manual for a moment, he didn't even comply with that guidance. Is that is that no your evidence? He seems to have done the opposite.
01:02:22 Um, I want to move on to what James actually told you about himself. Um,
01:02:33 what did you know about his background or or what the inquiries come to know as his legend? Yeah. So, he said um he
01:02:44 Yeah. So, he said um he was he had the Scottish background. His father was a lad. I had no idea what that was. Um he had um his his father was very military and I think his grandfather was as well. He had two
01:02:56 grandfather was as well. He had two brothers and a sister. I think at least one brother was also in the military. He said the sis his sister was a bit
01:03:11 said the sis his sister was a bit quirky. Um but she was an actress and she was doing quite well for herself in that field. He said he had sort of public sort of private schools. I think he was expected to go into the military but didn't.
01:03:23 military but didn't. He was a bit of a black sheep. Did that background chime with any um family famous family that you have come
01:03:36 family famous family that you have come to be aware of? it when when I found out everything, I spent a lot of time trying to look a lot of stuff up and try and understand as best
01:03:48 stuff up and try and understand as best I could and the family thing came back a lot. I ended up looking up anyone that would fit that profile and I did come across somebody called um James Christopher Swinton who's part of the
01:03:59 Christopher Swinton who's part of the Swinton family. I think the father his father was a lead. His brothers were in the military. He was um in sort of television
01:04:13 He was um in sort of television production and his sister was an actress and his sister is Tilda Swinton and it just it fit with everything that he said that fit. Um so initially when I didn't know who he
01:04:27 so initially when I didn't know who he was I was wondering if he was um James Christopher Swinton. It was only I when I found out it was Tilda Swinton, I thought, well, that's he just lied. Um, and then I found a photo of them,
01:04:41 Um, and then I found a photo of them, the the whole family, and I was like, yeah, no, he just he made the whole thing up.
01:04:46 thing up. But I do do believe that's what he bas I personally believe that's what he based his legend on. Do you remember when you discovered that?
01:04:57 That would have been in the in in the months preceding the the months after after he told me that he was an undercover officer. It would have been a few months after that
01:05:10 been a few months after that and we'll come to that. That's about 2018 onwards, isn't it? It is. Yeah. Um, in terms of previous relationships that he had, were you aware of any significant past rel relationships apart from Sara?
01:05:25 from Sara? I knew he had um he had had a long-term partner. I can't for the life of me remember if he said they were married or not, but he said he had three children with her.
01:05:33 with her. Um he said it wasn't particularly happy and they were going to split up a few times, but every time they split up, he got she got pregnant
01:05:46 they split up, he got she got pregnant and they ended up staying. But um they they had three children together and then they split up but it was relatively amicable.
01:05:55 amicable. So I I knew about this lady and then I knew about Sara. And is that the extent of it? That that is the extent of it that I knew. Yes. What about his cover accommodation?
01:06:12 What about his cover accommodation? His cover accommodation was a shock when I first got there. It just he was always quite well presented and well turned out. His clothes were always quite neat. I I know some of the um some of the
01:06:23 I I know some of the um some of the huntabs including Wendy used to laugh at him for ironing his jeans. He So when when I saw his accommodation, it wasn't what I expected. It was very rund down. I think there were two very
01:06:34 rund down. I think there were two very threddy towels in the in the bathroom. There was nothing personal in there at all. There was hardly any food in the
01:06:48 all. There was hardly any food in the fridge. It didn't look lived in and it didn't fit with him. Okay.
01:06:50 Okay. How how often would you stay at his cover accommodation and how often would you stay at where you were living with Wendy?
01:07:04 I'm I'm not sure. I want to say roughly maybe 50/50, but I can't be positive on that. Sorry. Okay. This is Sorry, I should have made that clear. When when you were with
01:07:16 that clear. When when you were with James, you know, where would you spend the the time together and where would you stay overnight together? Yeah. So, we would we could we would either go out local to Wendy's and then we would go back to Wendy's or we would go out further a field or we would go out to London um and then we would go
01:07:31 out to London um and then we would go back to his and spend the night at his place.
01:07:38 in terms of his cover employment. What did you understand he did for a job? So he said that he had started off as a locations assistant um and then had become a locations manager
01:07:50 become a locations manager and he worked he did do some work with the BBC. He had a a couple of films that he'd done. There was a there was a sort of a TV
01:08:02 There was a there was a sort of a TV miniseries that he was part of. I don't know if I can say can I say what it is. We don't need to go into to to what uh particular shows he was involved with.
01:08:15 particular shows he was involved with. Um and we don't need to know the name of the company he worked in. No. Yeah. That then he ended up setting up a little company with some friends later on. Um, I remember one of the
01:08:27 later on. Um, I remember one of the shows he did, we ended up watching it to support him, to be supportive, and we watched right through to the end, and we saw his name come up on the credits as associate producer, and we were really happy for him and really supportive.
01:08:43 happy for him and really supportive. When you say we, who who do you mean? Wendy and myself. Okay.
01:08:58 Okay. And how much travel did the job entail? He did go away a fair amount. Um he would he would either be away spending time with his children or he would be away traveling for work. He would go either around the UK or he would travel further a field. That one time he told me he was in Tuskanyany or in Italy or
01:09:18 nice places where I wasn't basically. But yeah, he did seem to travel quite a lot.
01:09:23 If I can ask you about the nature of the relationship itself, how would you characterize the uh the relationship with James?
01:09:37 with James? From from my point of view, he was my first what I would call proper relationship. So, anybody that I dated before had hadn't been that the feelings hadn't been that
01:09:50 that the feelings hadn't been that intense. It hadn't been there. Um I this one I was very comfortable in quite quickly. I could see it going on for a long time. He was the first person that I thought I could actually see myself with someone. Um it just it was easy. It
01:10:05 with someone. Um it just it was easy. It was nice. There was no pressure. I could be myself.
01:10:17 be myself. Apparently [clears throat] not. But it he he was my first love basically. My first proper intense relationship. Did you think that there could be anybody else in that relationship or was it exclusive to you two? Was it a monogous relationship?
01:10:28 monogous relationship? I actually we I was having a conversation once I do remember that with Wendy and we were talking about people cheating on each other and I said, "Yeah, I don't think James would do that." And she went, "No, he's not
01:10:46 do that." And she went, "No, he's not really the type. He doesn't seem to be the type." We we got that incredibly wrong. But I was I was under the impression it was monogous. You spoke about contraception a moment ago. Can you explain how you dealt with that in your relationship?
01:11:00 that in your relationship? I we weren't He was reluctant to sleep together without contraception, which was great obviously. So I went to maybe
01:11:14 was great obviously. So I went to maybe look at going on on the pill and talking with my doctor, we tried the injection. And I think once you have it, you have to wait a couple of weeks once you've had that and then you can you can start an intimate relationship. So it took a little while for me to get that sorted, but once once that was done,
01:11:29 but once once that was done, we never used any other forms of contraception. Okay.
01:11:42 Um, we heard evidence from Sara last week about James informing her about the difficulties he had in maintaining intimate relationships for long periods of time. And that was due to traumatic
01:11:54 of time. And that was due to traumatic childhood experiences relating to when he was at boarding school, his best friend being raped by the headmaster and subsequently killing themselves. and that his first sexual relationship had
01:12:12 that his first sexual relationship had been with a 35 year old teacher from his school and the fact that both of those experiences had impacted upon him significantly. Did he ever talk to you about those experiences?
01:12:27 The the rape? No, that was that was fairly horrific that he would say that. He did say that he had had a sexual relationship with the school nurse, but he seemed quite proud of that.
01:12:42 but he seemed quite proud of that. That was that was only really mentioned once and it wasn't brought up as an issue.
01:12:51 issue. Did he have an issue in maintaining a sexual relationship with you? No, he didn't. In your witness statement, you talk about um giving each other space um and that suited you. Can you just explain
01:13:07 that suited you. Can you just explain that a little bit? Yeah, I am I'm quite I'm quite an introvert. I'm quite a
01:13:18 I'm quite an introvert. I'm quite a private person. I do like my own space and he seemed to as well. So, um I do find it uncomfortable if you date someone and then you're getting 10 texts a day and calling and meeting up every every night or I I find that quite claustrophobic.
01:13:29 claustrophobic. So, the fact that it was a nice slow pace and it wasn't we weren't in each other's pockets suited me very well. And then when we were together, it was
01:13:44 then when we were together, it was lovely. It was romantic. It was caring. It was sweet. It was easy. It was fun. It was great. And then I still had time for myself. What about gifts? Was he quite generous towards you?
01:13:56 towards you? He
01:13:58 He birthdays. Um yeah, he gave me a gift. Um it was a cuz I said I wanted to ride a motorbike. He'd given me um the CBT
01:14:12 a motorbike. He'd given me um the CBT course, the initial motorbike course, which
01:14:14 which was very generous and I was quite uncomfortable accepting that especially cuz I think I'd given him a bottle of whiskey which was 21 years old which
01:14:27 whiskey which was 21 years old which ended up being the same age as me and that was weird. But yeah, so he I he gave me that motorbike course and then I think before he left he gave me the next one
01:14:38 one to to end up getting getting my full license.
01:14:41 license. Um
01:14:48 Um and who would pay for your meals out or you spoke of me weekends away and that sort of thing? He he was very generous with that as well. I didn't have a lot of money. Um especially cuz I was after the wildlife hospital I was finding my feet and trying to get
01:15:03 by the time you pay bills with you there's not a lot left. So I didn't I didn't have a lot of expendable income. I did try and pay halves as much as I
01:15:15 I did try and pay halves as much as I could. But when we went away to Airbnbs, I'm I'm very sure that he was the one that he always said, I if I want to do
01:15:26 that he always said, I if I want to do it, I'd rather pay for it so then we can do it because that's what I would like. Um so he he paid for a lot of those things.
01:15:35 things. Okay. I'd like to ask you about the trip abroad that you took. Um was it one trip abroad that you had with him? Yes. Yeah. and and and that trip was to Indonesia and Singapore. Is that right? Yeah.
01:15:46 Yeah. And that was around September 2001.
01:15:55 It must have been later because it was it was after the um 911 attack.
01:16:06 attack. Okay. Okay. So that was the the attacks on the World Trade Center and other US targets on the 11th of September 2001 that became known as 911. Yeah. So whether it was sort of end of September, beginning of October, I'm I'm not sure. I'm sorry.
01:16:17 I'm I'm not sure. I'm sorry. The inquiry understands the dates of that trip to be between the 26th of September 2001 and the 5th of October 2001. Does that ring true? Okay. that that would work out. Yes.
01:16:34 Okay. that that would work out. Yes. Okay. And can you can you tell us how it was that you went on this trip with James?
01:16:39 James? He he had suggested it. He was going over to see um a friend of his and to visit him in Indonesia and he asked me
01:16:53 visit him in Indonesia and he asked me if I wanted to come which I thought was fantastic. So yeah, I jumped at the chance.
01:16:59 chance. that the inquiry knows that that person who he went to visit in Indonesia in Jakarta is a person known to this inquiry as L4. So they have a cipher. Yes.
01:17:06 Yes. Um did you know that person?
01:17:20 I'd certainly knew of that person. I maybe I'd met him once or twice. I must have I must have met him a couple of times. Yeah. Okay.
01:17:25 Okay. And did that person have a partner over there in Indonesia? Not in Indonesia. His partner was over here. What what I found out later, which I didn't know at the time, was
01:17:42 which I didn't know at the time, was that his partner had contacted James and she had said that she was exceptionally worried about L4 um because of things that had happened and she was worried that he was over there isolated and alone.
01:17:56 there isolated and alone. and she paid for James to go over and be with him because she knew they were friends and she just wanted him to be supportive and be a supportive friend over there. Okay.
01:18:08 over there. Okay. Now, the context to this the inquiry understands is that L4 had been um assaulted uh run over by a
01:18:21 had been um assaulted uh run over by a vehicle um during the course of being on a a hunt sab. Was that your understanding as well? Yes. What I had heard is that um someone had driven I think it was a car out a
01:18:35 had driven I think it was a car out a bunch of sabs and he had been hit sort of from the legs upwards. So the the wheels had gone over his entire body and then I think I heard that the car had then circled back around to come
01:18:48 had then circled back around to come back and go over him again. Um and then the driver had been stopped. Okay. And we understand that he nearly died from that
01:19:06 that very unwell. Um I think if he hadn't have been, ironically, if he hadn't have been a hunt sab and been as fit as he was, he would not have survived. Um,
01:19:15 at the time when James was going over to visit him in Indonesia, we understand that uh
01:19:23 that uh the trial against the person accused of that assault had collapsed. Was that your understanding? Yes. And this is sort of third party. I heard this from someone who heard it. So forgive me if it's not completely
01:19:37 forgive me if it's not completely accurate but my understanding was that the trial had collapsed on a technicality and they had been it had come across as a little derogatory towards L4. Okay.
01:19:45 Okay. As in it
01:19:49 As in it so the whole the whole lot had fallen fallen apart.
01:20:00 fallen apart. It's it's absolutely your understanding that we're interested in. It's what you understood to be the case. Um, and your evidence is that it was L4's partner that paid for James to go to Indonesia. Who paid for you? I
01:20:19 I am I'm very I'm about 70 80% sure that James paid because again I didn't have a lot of money. I I question myself quite a lot as I go through it all. So,
01:20:31 through it all. So, I sort of I try I second guess myself a bit, but I am I'm about 80% sure he paid for me.
01:20:42 about 80% sure he paid for me. And he paid he paid for the uh you think he might have paid for the tickets, the flight tickets? Flights and accommodation. Yeah. Um but it may have been you that paid for flights and accommodation.
01:20:57 It might have been me that paid flights or contributed to flights, but I don't think I did. Okay. What about accommodation? I really did not have a lot of money. There was no way I could have done I could have done that.
01:21:08 could have done that. So, in terms of the accommodation, just to be clear, he paid for that. I'm sure he paid for. Okay.
01:21:18 Okay. Um the flights I'm 80% sure he paid for. Okay.
01:21:20 Okay. And who organized the trip? He organized everything. I literally just floated along.
01:21:34 just floated along. Okay. Did Did you Did you deal with the tickets at all? Did you have your own set of tickets? He he seemed to do everything. So he he always came across as upper class and he had this whole
01:21:46 upper class and he had this whole etiquette thing. So if you were walking down the road, he would always walk on the car side of the pavement. And um I used to laugh at him about that and just what are you doing? Just walk. Um so he would then he took all the the tickets
01:22:00 would then he took all the the tickets and the passports and everything and he did all the checking in and all the sorting out. And I just thought this is just something he does.
01:22:08 Um,
01:22:21 if I can just ask you about that passport. Did you ever see his passport? No.
01:22:29 Um, were you aware of who was detailed as his next of kin in the passport? No, I wouldn't have a clue. Could we have up on screen please MPS0719722?
01:22:52 This is page three paragraph se uh 2.7. Um
01:22:58 this is part of the inquiries that took place into James Thompson's deployment shortly after he had left the SDS. Um, and it says this, Indonesia matters
01:23:17 and it says this, Indonesia matters began to come a uh to come to a head in early September 2001 when DS Thompson sought authorization to visit L4 in Indonesia. His operational grounds for doing so were based on a need to brief L4 on legal issues around the L5 trial.
01:23:34 L4 on legal issues around the L5 trial. L5 being the person that was accused of uh assaulting him. His request was initially authorized, but events soon overtook that decision with the attack on the 11th of September. It quickly became apparent
01:23:48 September. It quickly became apparent both from media sources as well as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office that there were too many risks attached to such a visit, particularly in view of the anti-American and British fervor being fermented in Indonesia.
01:24:03 being fermented in Indonesia. DS Thompson was therefore instructed not to travel to the Far East. He was patently dismissive of the decision and its rationale but advised the office that he would travel to France on annual
01:24:16 that he would travel to France on annual leave instead from the 26th of September to the 5th of October. Could we have up paragraph 2.8 as well please?
01:24:30 please? 2.8 Eight reads, "By early November, inquiries had established that DS Thompson had indeed traveled to Singapore and Indonesia during his leave period using his covert identity. As a result of this serious breach of
01:24:42 As a result of this serious breach of operational security and discipline, he was interviewed by Detective Chief Superintendent Colin Black and informed that his operation would be concluded at the earliest opportunity, a final date
01:25:01 the earliest opportunity, a final date being set of the 27th of January, 2002. DS Thompson continued to maintain that he held the moral high ground and justified his decision to override the veto on travel to Indonesia on the basis of operational necessity.
01:25:14 of operational necessity. There was incidentally no intelligence feedback from this trip that can be taken down. Thank you.
01:25:31 Um, so it's understood from that document, Ellie, that he was forbidden by his managers to go to Indonesia. Um, yet
01:25:40 Um, yet on your evidence, he he invited you to go with him. That's right, isn't it? Yeah.
01:25:53 Yeah. To what extent, if at all, did he explain to you that there were any risks involved with such travel at that time? He didn't. Um, and in fact, we went we went to Indonesia and saw L4 and then we went um and stayed on an island for a couple of nights. When we got back from the island,
01:26:06 got back from the island, we were told that we then had to leave Indonesia and that's why we ended up in Singapore. We were evacuated.
01:26:18 Singapore. We were evacuated. Who told you you had to leave? James.
01:26:20 James. Okay.
01:26:24 Okay. Uh, you say you were evacuated to Singapore. What was that like? We we we got a flight to Singapore. Evacuated sounds dramatic. We just we got on a plane and I think L4 had already left at that point.
01:26:41 already left at that point. So L4 had already left Indonesia, believe I believe so. Yes. How much time did you spend with L4? Only a few days. Not not very long at all.
01:26:56 Um, in Singapore,
01:27:02 you went and had a a Singapore sling in raffles. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, that's correct. He was quite keen on doing that. That seemed to be a bucket list thing. Is there anything specific that made it feel like that
01:27:16 specific that made it feel like that that that was something more than just a touristy thing one might do when in Singapore? He he was very that was one place he definitely did want to go. I have found out since then that this was a bit of a place that all of the
01:27:28 a bit of a place that all of the undercovers were quite keen on visiting. There's a there's a Raffles in London, I think, where Ian Fleming wrote the James Bond um stories and that seems to be a
01:27:45 Bond um stories and that seems to be a that seems to be a thing for them that they all like. I didn't know that at the time. Okay. So, you didn't appreciate that at the time, but in reflection, that
01:27:56 the time, but in reflection, that appears to be something significant, does it?
01:28:04 does it? It does. He was I mean, he was very keen on going. That was that seemed to be a big deal to him to have a Singapore Singapore slinging raffles.
01:28:10 Did you ever hear of James being referred to by nicknames? James Blonde. Yes. Yeah. And why was that?
01:28:24 And why was that? Wendy told me right from the start um that when he first came out in the field, everyone assumed he was an undercover officer. They said he was he was very textbook in his approach and so they called him James Blonde as a bit of
01:28:38 they called him James Blonde as a bit of a joke. Um, as time went on they decided that he wasn't an undercover officer, but the nickname stuck.
01:28:46 Was he aware of that nickname? As far as you knew,
01:28:50 you knew, he was aware of the nickname. He wasn't aware how it came about. Okay. How regularly was that used? I don't know. with within the activist circles. I wouldn't I wouldn't have a clue.
01:29:08 clue. Did you use that that term for him? No, I don't think I did. Um,
01:29:15 if somebody were looking at James's deployment uh for the first time, a fairly superficial look at it, knowing that his nickname was James Blonde,
01:29:29 that his nickname was James Blonde, um, could it be seen that he he may have been a bit of a a James Bond character? this sense of a a lovable rogue, somebody getting into a bit of a a bit of trouble, disregarding his superiors and the rules and having love affairs
01:29:47 and the rules and having love affairs whilst spying, traveling. What What do you say to that sense of of his deployment? That seems to fit to be honest with you.
01:29:57 Yeah, that seems to be exactly what he's done.
01:30:08 done. Okay. And how does that fit with uh your experience of do you feel like you've had an experience with a James Bond character? I obviously didn't at the time. Um I always he was always a very private, secretive person, but um
01:30:25 I didn't I didn't feel that I didn't feel he was like that at the time looking back. I do now.
01:30:32 Um,
01:30:41 in terms of photographs from that holiday,
01:30:52 can you explain what happened to your holiday snaps? my holiday snaps. I had taken I had a couple of rolls of film and I had one left in the camera and when we got back to the UK, he said, "Give me your give me your rolls of film and I'll get them developed with mine."
01:31:05 and I'll get them developed with mine." And I never saw them again. And he told me that none of mine had come out. Um, and the the two photos that I have
01:31:18 Um, and the the two photos that I have of him that I've exhibited were the ones that were remaining in my camera when I got back. Everything else was gone. He did, I think, because I didn't have any of the photos, he'd made two collages
01:31:31 of the photos, he'd made two collages for me of our time away, um, which I I was really touched about at the time. And they were they were photos and bits and pieces of our stay, bits of
01:31:44 and pieces of our stay, bits of memorabilia of our stay, like a coaster from Raffles from Yeah. that that sort of thing.
01:31:50 And what did you think about that at the time?
01:32:00 time? I was genuinely touched. I thought that was an incredibly thoughtful gesture. I
01:32:02 I I it showed that someone had put a bit of time and effort into doing something like that. I that meant quite a lot to me. I kept them for ages and in fact when I did bring myself to throw them
01:32:18 when I did bring myself to throw them out, that's why I took a picture of them so that I still had a a copy of them. But it meant a lot.
01:32:23 What do you think about that now? Looking back.
01:32:29 Looking back, I'd be surprised if he was the one that did it. Maybe someone else did it. I don't know.
01:32:46 Um, do you think there may be any other reason why that collage came to be?
01:32:55 What do you mean? Sorry. Um, did you ever give any other thought as to why none of your photos came out? In hindsight, I think he got rid of them because there were photos of him.
01:33:07 because there were photos of him. So, what what was contained on that collage in terms of the photographs? There was photographs of the area. I think I was in a couple of them. Um, some of the photographs were from
01:33:18 some of the photographs were from Singapore, some were from Jakarta, some were from the island. Um, and then there was so when when we arrived on the island, we got these little hats and a little drink. And so one of the little
01:33:33 little drink. And so one of the little hats was in there. Um, the I think plane tickets were in there. Did he feature in the collage? He did not. No, funnily enough.
01:33:47 Um I'd like to move to the withdrawal um in early 2002 when he was when his deployment was coming to an end.
01:34:01 coming to an end. Um now this happened about 10 months into your relationship. So from the
01:34:13 into your relationship. So from the point at which you you started dating um in uh early uh like springtime 2001 to early
01:34:16 to early 2002.
01:34:18 2002. Um
01:34:24 what can you tell me about what happened at the start of 2002?
01:34:34 He when he was when he was preparing to leave.
01:34:35 leave. Yeah.
01:34:36 Yeah. Um so he he turned up one day to go on a date and he went, "Oh, let's go for a walk." And we just we walked around the block um around Gwendy's
01:34:51 around the block um around Gwendy's place. And he he explained that his exartner
01:34:57 exartner had a new partner who had a job in San Francisco
01:35:02 Francisco and she wanted to take the children and immigrate
01:35:07 immigrate and needed his permission and he'd given his permission but he obviously wanted he didn't want to have his children on the other side of the world. He had started up this small production company with a couple of friends of his and so
01:35:20 with a couple of friends of his and so they had decided that he could be the LA branch and he could then move over there and work from America. So that was so he was going to be leaving
01:35:35 was going to be leaving from there. Things did progress quite quickly.
01:35:36 quickly. There were a couple I was around at his place. Um he went out. He said he had to go out for a meeting. When he came back, he was a bit he was a bit quiet and a
01:35:52 he was a bit he was a bit quiet and a bit in a in a little bit of a bad mood and he said things were progressing faster than he wanted and he was probably going to be leaving quicker than he anticipated.
01:36:05 than he anticipated. And there was I think there was one more time and we went out for a walk and he said um there's a
01:36:17 said um there's a there's a job roll come up which means I would have to leave quite fast. Um so within a matter of weeks he was then gone.
01:36:23 gone. And what impression did he give you about having to leave faster than he thought?
01:36:25 thought? He was not he he he he was not happy about leaving as quickly. That that's the impression I got. He was a bit
01:36:38 a bit disappointed that he was going as fast as he was. He was a bit unimpressed.
01:36:45 Um it's right, isn't it, that he eventually moved around March 2002. Was that your understanding that that's when he left for America?
01:36:59 for America? That sounds about right. Okay.
01:37:18 Um, the inquiry is aware that there had been a meeting on the 20th of November 2001. So for your reference, I'm not going to display it, but it was MPS 00007389
01:37:27 at page one. And this is the uh meeting that James Thompson had with SDS managers and detective superintendent Colin Black. uh sorry, Detective Chief Superintendent Colin Black
01:37:39 Superintendent Colin Black in which James had been instructed to terminate his operation by the 27th of January 2002. And that timeline, we understand, was
01:37:58 And that timeline, we understand, was extended at James Thompson's request due to the complexities of his withdrawal plan involving a job in LA. And the reference for that sir is MPS0719722
01:38:18 at page three. It's paragraph 2.9. I don't need to show it on the screen. Um
01:38:25 Um Ellie, what do you recall about those plans? What was he telling you about these plans and the complexity around that?
01:38:36 I only really what he said that there had been this job that had come up in LA and it was he was going to have to leave sooner than he anticipated.
01:38:48 sooner than he anticipated. That that was pretty much it. Okay.
01:38:50 Okay. Before he left, he bought you a follow-up motorbike course. I think you've commented on that already.
01:39:02 you've commented on that already. Can we have on the display please? UCPI 38208
01:39:16 sir. It's behind tab A2 of the bundle. Um is this the card that he gave to you? Yes it is.
01:39:25 and where he says Ellie or your real name
01:39:29 name as you seem to be struggling with a concept I've removed the decision process from you the enclosed is a non-refundable is non-refundable so if you don't take it I can't get the cash back anyway
01:39:43 back anyway see you in the south of France with love James
01:39:49 um Was
01:39:53 Was there any sense that this was the end of the relationship for you and James? I didn't know and I I should have asked. I when he said see you in the south of
01:40:06 I when he said see you in the south of France, I was like, "Oh, well, you know, I'll learn to ride. We'll we'll meet up. We'll go for a ride. Maybe we'll keep in touch."
01:40:13 touch." But I wasn't quite sure what he was going to do. it. Everything seemed a bit up in the air. He seemed to have a lot on his plate.
01:40:25 on his plate. So, I I did leave the ball the ball in his court
01:40:33 his court and so when he left, I wasn't sure if I would hear from him again and then I I got that email.
01:40:42 Thank you. That can be taken down. How did you feel once he left or pretended to leave for America? To leave. I was a little bit hollow to be honest with you. I'd like I said it was the first
01:40:54 like I said it was the first relationship that I thought this could this could last and then it was taken away. And it wasn't even it wasn't like we'd split up. So it wasn't like we'd fallen out. There was no attraction there anymore. There were no feelings
01:41:12 there anymore. There were no feelings there anymore. We still had all of that. It was just a logistical situation that had
01:41:14 had separated us. So it from that point of view it was was quite heartbreaking. The inquiry understands that a lot of
01:41:25 The inquiry understands that a lot of time, effort and expense was put into formulating his extraction plan. I'm not going to bring this up, but sir, for your reference, it is MPS07389
01:41:43 that details his extraction plan. Um, are you able to help us with whether many people from the animal rights group or from your circle of friends um moved away, went to live abroad?
01:41:55 away, went to live abroad? Uh, is was that a a regular thing amongst the people that you knew or not?
01:42:06 No, no, not really. I think we we were it
01:42:08 it Wendy and I moved away. That was we were the only other ones that I know. Okay. So, um, we'll come to that in a moment. You and Wendy moved away. We
01:42:23 moment. You and Wendy moved away. We understand that Sara moved away as well. She moved away in 2001.
01:42:28 2001. Sorry, you're correct. She did. Yes.
01:42:41 Sorry, you're correct. She did. Yes. And L4 had moved out at least for some time to Indonesia. Is that right? L4 L4 worked abroad. Okay.
01:42:42 Okay. So,
01:42:43 So, he didn't move. Was there anything particularly suspicious about James's move abroad?
01:42:56 No. What did Wendy say about it?
01:43:04 Can't remember. Was his absence discussed? I mean, it would have been um I can't I can't remember. I'm sorry. Um
01:43:21 Um what what would you have thought or done if he had simply not contacted you after his pretend move to America?
01:43:28 That would have been it and I would have had to get on with my life.
01:43:44 Um before we move on to contact post uh his his deployment I just want to ask you one thing about phone billing records. Um if we can have on the display please MPS0719722.
01:44:06 This is page nine. Um again this is in reference to a document about inquiries into James Thompson's deployment a few months after his withdrawal. So the date of this document is the 5th of July uh 2002
01:44:24 2002 entitled M magenta triangle overview and summary of inquiries and it's authored by DI HN53.
01:44:39 Um, and what we can see here is there is some analysis of DS Thompson's phone traffic.
01:44:44 traffic. And um, what we can see from paragraph 4.1
01:44:46 4.1 is that the analysis was looking at phone uh, phone calls between the uh, 1st of April 2001 until the 8th of April
01:45:03 1st of April 2001 until the 8th of April 2002. So over approximately one year and it's the final year of his deployment. That roughly correlates with the time that you were in a sexual relationship with him. Does that sound right?
01:45:15 Yes. and over the page on page 10.
01:45:21 I can have the the next page up please.
01:45:30 So the next page will be page 10.
01:45:46 Um, and essentially it looks it breaks down those calls. We'll have it up in a moment. Um, and calls relating to you.
01:46:08 We can see here in that bottom table, you're at the top of the table. Can you see Ellie is ciphered there in the first row of that bottom table?
01:46:23 Is that coming up on your screen? Is yes.
01:46:33 Is yes. Okay. So in relation to Ellie between uh those dates that uh year from April 2001 to April 2002 there about 301 calls well there are 301 calls to you
01:46:44 to you um
01:46:52 um roughly over a year. That's one nearly every day on average. Does that sound about right? Are they
01:46:58 Are they are they calls or are they text messages and calls? These are [clears throat] I think these are calls. We can uh ask further details about that
01:47:09 We can uh ask further details about that with other witnesses but uh from looking at the document it's calls.
01:47:14 That seems a lot.
01:47:22 That That would be more than one a day. That That seems a lot. Okay. Would that seem a lot if it included text messages? No. If it included text messages back and forth,
01:47:35 and forth, that would make more sense. Okay.
01:47:38 Okay. Um, looking at the top of the page. So, if we take that one down and look at um
01:47:47 um calls that are made to people in his real life as as James Thompson, we can see that the top line relates to DS Thompson's real life partner. 627
01:48:02 Thompson's real life partner. 627 calls. And then the the the the line below is calls to DS Thompson's real life ex-wife, children or family. 226 calls.
01:48:18 calls. You've spoken about your knowledge of uh James's ex. You didn't know whether it was wife or partner, but the fact that he had children with her?
01:48:29 he had children with her? Yes. Were you not aware then of a real life partner? I was certainly not aware of a real life partner.
01:48:35 partner. Okay,
01:48:38 Okay, you can take that down. Thank you.
01:48:44 Um
01:49:01 I'd like to ask you about contact post deployment. So from the point at which he moved away to America on your understanding. Um
01:49:12 the inquiry understands that his deployment officially concluded on the 25th of March 2002.
01:49:16 So for reference that's MPS0719722
01:49:24 at page two. I don't need to display that.
01:49:35 But we understand that within a matter of weeks he sent you an email and that's something you've exhibited at UCPI 38289.
01:49:41 It's page two of that document. Uh
01:49:47 so we can see there
01:49:57 this email was from the 8th of May 2002. So approximately 6 weeks after you understood he'd left for America. Is that about right? That sounds about right.
01:50:12 So we can see from paragraphs three and four of that email.
01:50:27 But he says in paragraph three, I've got a one month rental. a a a one-mon let on a small apartment in West Hollywood, smaller even than my place in London was, but hey, there's a pool and the grass is unsullied and proletariat on account of all the security required.
01:50:44 account of all the security required. Um, and he he talks about um the place he has in LA. in the fourth paragraphs, the next one down,
01:50:53 down, he talks about um getting personal and he says, "Anyway, that's all my dil. So, let's turn to yours. There isn't a problem with you getting personal in emails, as you suggest. That only
01:51:04 emails, as you suggest. That only applies to me. Besides, as I could rarely get a genuine insight into how you felt about things when I was with you, I definitely want to know now. As
01:51:16 you, I definitely want to know now. As there is no longer any possibility of my being able to look at you whilst you're talking, I'm hoping it'll be easier for you. I do want to know that you're happy after all.
01:51:30 after all. I also want to know that you're grabbing the life that should be yours. You're a hell of a lot smarter than either you let on or allow yourself to believe. But when you get careless and distracted, it leaks out mostly through your sense of
01:51:41 leaks out mostly through your sense of humor and wit, which I miss hugely, by the way, as you often don't have the confidence to force an issue even when you know you're right. Um, towards the end of that paragraph,
01:52:01 he says, um, I don't ever I don't see you ever ducking an adventure. So, it's just a matter of being in the right places to let them happen to you. I really do want you to have as much fun in your life as I've had and hopefully will continue to have in mine. It'll be
01:52:13 will continue to have in mine. It'll be fun meeting up when you're old and gray and I'm a ghost to swap war stories, all to be horribly exaggerated in the interests of a good yarn, of course.
01:52:30 And then towards the end of that email, so we can see on page three
01:52:38 if that can be enlarged. Can you see that on your screen? I can. Yes.
01:52:47 Um, he says, "I also need you to do a spot of considering. I'm likely to be heading for Europe in a while, the K's film festival, darling, and we'll have to
01:53:02 festival, darling, and we'll have to stop off in London, either on the way there or on the way back. So, what I need to know is how you feel about meeting up for a curry or pizza or some such. Is it too soon? And how do you feel, etc., etc. Have a serious think
01:53:13 feel, etc., etc. Have a serious think and let me know. I won't take offense either way, and we'll continue to bother you via email until much later when we can meet in the Pyrenees or Alps on
01:53:28 can meet in the Pyrenees or Alps on motorcycles. Oh, and can you not mention this to anyone else, as I don't want to be obliged to chase around seeing everyone, it will only be a short visit. Read that script thing.
01:53:44 Read that script thing. Anyway, that'll do for now. It's far too hot to remain out here without a swim. Take care, my love. yours. I, James, with a kiss.
01:53:50 Um, Ellie, do you remember how that letter made you feel at the time? Um, I printed that out and kept it cuz
01:54:02 Um, I printed that out and kept it cuz it it meant quite a lot. So, I ended up keeping I think I still got it somewhere. And how do you read it now? not the same way.
01:54:18 Um I I don't know why he kept in touch with us.
01:54:24 I don't know. I don't know what he was playing at at all.
01:54:39 What about having fun in life? Do you think that he was just having fun uh with you, with your relationship?
01:54:50 I don't think it cost him anything and I think it would have helped his ego and I think he would have enjoyed himself and maybe like you said living this James Blonde persona maybe that suited him.
01:55:08 You were asked by James not to mention his trip to England to others. Did you tell your friends that this relationship was ongoing? That you were still in communication with James?
01:55:26 Yes, Wendy knew obviously because she was also in touch with him. Um, and I mean, yes, my friends knew that I had um contact with this man called James.
01:55:42 And how often did you meet up once you thought he'd moved to America?
01:55:54 Whenever he was back in the UK. So it would at a guess again it would be maybe once a year, twice every 18 months maybe and then later on when we immigrated it would be
01:56:07 later on when we immigrated it would be whenever I came back which was every 18 months to two years. We can come on to that in a moment. Just to finish this one point because I think we're going to move to a break in a moment. Um, when you did meet up at the
01:56:19 moment. Um, when you did meet up at the point where you're still in England, you understand he's coming back from America to visit.
01:56:27 to visit. What were your meetups like? How did you behave with each other?
01:56:40 behave with each other? It it picked up where it left off. We just It was like going on a date again. It just Yeah. It just slipped straight back into into that. any sexual relationship at that point? No, not at that point.
01:56:53 No, not at that point. Okay. Uh a physical uh uh intimacy with him.
01:56:59 him. Always a kiss. Always a goodbye kiss. Um like an intimate kiss. Um I think sometimes holding hands. Um and then later on sort of over the
01:57:13 Um and then later on sort of over the years there were very intimate moments. Okay.
01:57:14 Okay. Um
01:57:19 Um is it right that you were still emailing each other during these years before you left England? Yes. Yeah, we we emailed relatively regularly. And your sense of the relationship during those years from 2002 to 2005,
01:57:33 during those years from 2002 to 2005, how would you describe the relationship?
01:57:39 Honestly, I'm not sure how I would describe it. It was It was more [clears throat] than friendship, but it wasn't a relationship. It was somewhere in the middle. Um, again, like when when we met up, it was like being on a date.
01:57:57 we met up, it was like being on a date. There was still that intimacy. There was still that romance. Um, the emails were very caring and very close. I never really I never I never really labeled it. Okay.
01:58:10 labeled it. Okay. So, that might be a good time now. I'm sorry we've overrun slightly. Yes. Um could we manage with a 10-minute break?
01:58:19 break? Yes. Is 10 minutes enough for a break for you?
01:58:25 for you? That would be great. Thank you. Right. Then we'll start again in 10 minutes. Nice.
02:10:05 Hope we don't have a technical hitch.
02:10:13 Yes. Ready to resume. Ready. Thank you.
02:10:23 Ellie, just before we move on to your move to Australia, can I just ask you one other thing about your uh trip to Indonesia?
02:10:34 Indonesia? Was there ever any talk of revenge being taken for the attack on L4? That's whether you whether you knew about that when you were in Indonesia or amongst uh groups at home.
02:10:45 groups at home. Never.
02:10:47 Never. You never heard anything? That never that I heard anything. No, never.
02:11:02 Um, in terms of your move away, you left to move to Australia with Wendy. Is that right?
02:11:03 right? Correct. Yes. And and that was 2005. Yes.
02:11:11 And what was the reason for that move?
02:11:23 I was a bit stuck obviously after the wildlife hospital. I'd had to start from scratch. I' I'd start attemping
02:11:32 attemping and then full-time then work my way back up. But it it was they were necessary jobs rather than something that I really wanted to do. It was just something cuz
02:11:47 wanted to do. It was just something cuz I needed to pay bills and I I needed to live. So I thought this isn't really how I want my life to be. Um and then I didn't quite know what to do and I found opportunities a bit
02:12:00 do and I found opportunities a bit limiting. So I thought I would go have a bit of an adventure, work sort myself out, decide where I want to be. Um and the it just progressed from there just planning logistically how we can do it with the
02:12:16 logistically how we can do it with the finances that we had. Um and we it came up that we could move to Australia initially for 2 years. Um but the option was there to stay if we needed to.
02:12:31 And I think you did stay there did you fulltime?
02:12:32 fulltime? We did
02:12:33 We did permanently. What impact did that have on your relationship or or whatever communication you were having with James at the time?
02:12:51 at the time? It didn't really because it was because we saw each other maybe only once a year and via emails. There wasn't really an impact. It just flowed. It just carried on.
02:12:58 on. So you remained in email contact? Yes. Did you remain in phone contact as well or
02:13:10 well or I I think when we first moved over I think
02:13:13 think I think I spoke to him on the phone. Um if we didn't have Wi-Fi we had a a sort of um a card that can make international calls.
02:13:25 calls. So I I may have spoken to him on the phone as well.
02:13:32 In terms of meeting up, how did you manage that?
02:13:37 Whenever I was going, and same with Wendy, whenever we were going back to
02:13:46 Wendy, whenever we were going back to the UK to visit, we would email and say, "These are the dates we're going to be back. If you can make it back there," and we can catch up, that would be great. Um, and he would very often manage that. What were your meetups like during that time?
02:13:57 time? exactly the same as as before. Nothing changed. In fact, he was one of the most consistent relationships I had.
02:14:08 consistent relationships I had. So, you continue to kiss like a couple when you met? Yes. Just continue to sort of
02:14:20 Yes. Just continue to sort of date if you like, go on trips, catch up, have dinners, have coffee. Okay.
02:14:25 Okay. All the normal stuff. And the level of intimacy of your conversations that remained similar, did it? It all. Yeah. Nothing changed. Um,
02:14:32 Um, how important in your life was that relationship that you had with James?
02:14:43 relationship that you had with James? I considered him one of my closest friends.
02:14:46 friends. So, so him and Wendy, my sister obviously, and I think there was like one or two people that I still kept in touch with from school. They were the closest people that had been
02:15:03 were the closest people that had been with me the longest, and he was one of my most sustained, oldest, closest friends.
02:15:10 friends. Did you see your relationship as platonic at that time or was there a sexual element to it?
02:15:17 Matonic only in the sense that we were on other sides of the world.
02:15:28 We were it it I mean the emails themselves they were flirty, they were fun, they were caring, they were you know all everything that it had been it still continued to be.
02:15:42 So, was it like a long-distance relationship that you were having with him?
02:15:50 It couldn't be a relationship because again of where we were and what we were doing, but um it was again it was more than a friendship and
02:15:59 and less than
02:16:04 less than less than a relationship. It was it was as intimate as it could be given the circumstances, but I wouldn't class it as a as a sexual relationship.
02:16:16 as a as a sexual relationship. Okay. Um, I want to look at the communications that you had
02:16:28 communications that you had post your move to Australia in 2005. Behind tab A5, it's exhibit UCPI 38290.
02:16:39 Um and we can see this is a um an email sent to you. Um we know that in his communications with you he appears to be traveling the world. We
02:16:52 appears to be traveling the world. We know that in in another email he talks about being in Tunisia uh uh Malaysia and Qatar. We can see that here um on on this email at paragraph three
02:17:10 at paragraph three he says here is Koala Lumpur which is just around the corner from you. So going back to paragraph one notice the clever link back. This is stuff all thought through.
02:17:26 Sorry, that reference to paragraph one was what the the reference he made in paragraph three. So, if you can highlight paragraph three, please.
02:17:32 Yeah.
02:17:40 And how difficult life must be there. Why don't you pop over here? It can't be difficult as my hotel seems to be full of Australians and you're one of them now, right? It would give us a
02:17:53 of them now, right? It would give us a chance at a glass at that glass of wine and to talk of embarrassing things. I know I said I'd do that, but you could have a go, too. Can you explain what he's referring to there?
02:18:15 The only thing I can think of is embarrassing things would be discussing feelings. Um, intimacy, relationships, our relationship. I'm really not good at that.
02:18:26 that. Okay. And at the end of this email,
02:18:43 he says, "Just to sign off, reply and let me know if A, you're popping over, B, you're not, but your birthday tour plans are going so well, you can give me a schedule I can intersect with." All my love, as always, J and an X. Um,
02:19:03 and is that an indication of you both trying to make it work so that you could meet up physically?
02:19:20 Yes. Or at least uh on the the front on this email, he's asking you to reply and let him know
02:19:25 him know what your travel plans are so that you can meet him. uh in a location. Yeah.
02:19:26 Yeah. Okay.
02:19:29 Okay. And give him a bit of notice. Yeah. Okay.
02:19:34 Okay. So, he's inviting you to to continue and meet up.
02:19:35 meet up. He is. Yeah.
02:19:47 Um a further email then behind tab 6 uh A6.
02:19:49 A6. This is exhibit 6B, UCPI 38291,
02:19:56 page two.
02:20:06 We can see here now another email to you um this time seemingly from Saudi Arabia. Um paragraph 4 please if that can be highlighted.
02:20:27 And what he's asking for here, third line down on on the screen, can you send me a Google Earth link of where you are now?
02:20:31 now? And uh halfway down, just past the privacy boxes. How far is it? Send Google Maps link soonest.
02:20:43 I still get to ride occasionally, but only when back in Europe. Um he he's asking you for a Google Earth link to where you're living at the time in Australia. Is that right?
02:20:55 Australia. Is that right? That's right. I think that email um
02:21:00 um so the emails I sent you were from the first email account up to 2013. What I would often do is um I would copy and paste an email onto a a word document
02:21:12 document and go out and then respond to it. And I think so that one would have been one of the later emails. Okay.
02:21:23 Okay. Um where he's asking I've said that Wendy and I have bought a house and he's asking for our address. Okay. That can be taken down. Thank you.
02:21:37 And then uh moving on behind tab A7 um there's a number of emails that you've exhibited your statement UCPI 38281
02:21:51 and these are emails between the 14th of October 2008 through to the 26th of June 2014. And are these all the emails that you received? Was this all the communication
02:22:06 received? Was this all the communication or is these are just a few examples, are they?
02:22:07 they? They're just a few examples. Yes. Um, about that time, can you recall how often you were emailing each other?
02:22:18 often you were emailing each other? I think I worked it out from the ones that I saw. It was several times a year.
02:22:29 Um, now paragraph two and three of this email.
02:22:39 This is an email that is seemingly sent from Iraq.
02:22:46 And a third line down in this paragraph, he said, "Actually, this trip is a bit of a swan song as I've been coerced into an office job for a few months when I get back, so no more playtime for me until early 2009, which seems like a
02:22:58 until early 2009, which seems like a bloody long time away. I wish I could remember why I agreed to do it. I was either very, very drunk or they've got photos of me doing something I shouldn't have been doing somewhere I probably
02:23:11 have been doing somewhere I probably shouldn't have been." And as I'm sure you agree, neither seem very likely. However, the upshot is I'll probably be a bit quicker on the correspondence as I'll be sitting on my ass near a computer most of the time.
02:35:37 says at paragraph three. Glad to hear you're back to the studying even though that won't be taken as a non-email excuse. In fact, if you're going online properly, I'm expecting many photographs
02:35:51 properly, I'm expecting many photographs and photo uh many paragraphs and photos, anything involving lingerie. And you will no doubt help with the aforementioned ah condition you left me in by being at Heathrow when I was in
02:36:03 in by being at Heathrow when I was in Scotland. Note how it's all your fault in my head at least. Or it might not, but I'll risk it. And then he signs off again. Anyway, dribbling should be working. focus falling apart. Ah, in fact, with love, nonetheless, of course, James kiss.
02:36:17 nonetheless, of course, James kiss. So, he's asking here about lingerie. Um, did you send any photos with you in lingerie?
02:36:28 lingerie? I no, that's one thing I never do. So, no, I didn't. And the R condition he's talking about, what was that reference to? Sexual frustration.
02:36:41 Sexual frustration. Was that something that he relayed to you uh uh regularly?
02:36:49 Defin relatively regularly. Yes.
02:37:00 So for a little while we had um excuse my language here what I called the bastard emails where he would go somewhere exotic and nice and I'd be like thanks for that you bastard. And then it moved on for a little while to the R emails.
02:37:17 Um, and that was a series of emails, was it?
02:37:19 it? That was just that was the subject heading.
02:37:20 heading. Okay.
02:37:25 Okay. Um, can you remember generally the number of those emails? I wouldn't have a clue. I'm sorry.
02:37:33 Um, page seven of this document, please.
02:37:48 This is the 23rd of October, 2011. Um, it looks like now there's reference to Libya or Malta. He's sending you an email from from that area. Um, paragraph three, if I could highlight that, please.
02:38:11 He says, "I anticipate going back very shortly and then straight on to another job in Asia. Not one I can escape from despite the proximity to nice places. So, I'm afraid November won't work." Um,
02:38:23 So, I'm afraid November won't work." Um, this is a nuisance as I as I find myself very much suffering from all the time with only one cure possible. And that cure seems to have positioned herself half a world away. a bit less when I'm
02:38:36 half a world away. a bit less when I'm traveling admittedly, but not so that it helps. It fades a little when one is actually being shot at, of course, but that's hardly a long-term solution. And come the long still watches of the night, but moving swiftly on, when is
02:38:56 night, but moving swiftly on, when is your next leave after November? Oh, hang on. I haven't really moved on at all. So,
02:38:58 So, uh, by October 2011, you're neither he hasn't moved on from finding you sexually attractive. Is that fair enough to say?
02:39:10 fair enough to say? That's what he says. Yeah. And we've got the the incurable R condition. And again, I think your evidence is that's sexual frustration.
02:39:30 I Yes, that's how I interpret it. And reference to um the cure seems to have positioned herself half half a world away. That's that's you uh being over in Australia, is it? Yes.
02:39:41 Yes. Um and the inference being that you're the cure for his sexual frustration. That that's how I interpret it. Okay. Um,
02:39:54 Okay. Um, in terms of November won't work, earlier on in the email, I think there was some discussion about trying to meet up. Was that because you had been intending to move uh uh travel back to England in November?
02:40:03 November? It must have been. So, there's back and forth still with trying to meet up at around this time in 2011.
02:40:14 Yes. Okay.
02:40:19 Okay. Um, and was it your understanding that when you did meet up there would be sexual attraction between you then?
02:40:34 Yes, it it continued more in that in that vein of dating and romance and intimacy. Okay. Um, page seven of this document, please.
02:40:50 Sorry, page page eight. So, this is the end of that email.
02:40:59 And again, he he talks about going to different countries. Um he's looking to the east, particularly the Slavic countries, Albania. For now, with all my love as ever, undiluted by the base of desires outlined above.
02:41:12 the base of desires outlined above. Yours, James. Kiss. PS, send photos soonest. Anything in lingerie or out of it would be good. And oh, and again,
02:41:30 it would be good. And oh, and again, kiss. And then PPS, photos sent in two packages of zip files. Let me know if this fails. So, we see here um that he's asking for
02:41:42 So, we see here um that he's asking for you to send photos again as soon as you could. And again, anything in lingerie or out of it. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And he sent you uh uh photos in return. Or at least he sent you photos. Did you send him those photos as requested?
02:42:00 send him those photos as requested? I didn't send those photos as requested. The photos that he sent would not have been anything sexual. They would have been of scenery. Okay.
02:42:05 Okay. Um page nine then please.
02:42:15 This is an email from the 6th of February 2012. Um,
02:42:20 Um, paragraph one.
02:42:28 My dearest Ellie, sorry this one has taken a little longer to write, but these are difficult times and as a result, I have absolutely nothing to impress or annoy you with. I spent a few weeks in Afghanistan just before Christmas, which was nice, but then got
02:42:40 Christmas, which was nice, but then got pulled to one side by the powers that be stateside
02:42:43 stateside and got told that there was a problem with me enjoying life as it was unamerican and therefore I'd have to do three months in the office. Yes, I know, three bloody months. Contrary to the
02:42:55 three bloody months. Contrary to the image I'm sure you have of me sitting in a corner suite of a penthouse uh penthouse block in La La Land, let me clarify that this entails looking at a traffic jam when in the US and not even seeing daylight when in Soho.
02:43:09 Um,
02:43:22 this may coincide with what James Thompson says in his witness statement. The reference being UCPI 3L53,
02:43:24 3L53, paragraph 472.1. I'm not going to bring it up, but he says that he remained in the S1
02:43:38 says that he remained in the S1 specialist protection unit until uh 2012 when police undercover activities hit the news, at which point he was removed from operational duties to protect the MPS and preserve his anonymity whilst
02:43:50 MPS and preserve his anonymity whilst they assessed the risk that might arise from the public disclosure in the media. And from then until his retirement in June 2014,
02:44:10 June 2014, he only fulfilled administrative duties in and around New Scotland Yard. Um,
02:44:15 Um, did you get the impression from your communications with him that he was frustrated being put on office duties?
02:44:27 frustrated being put on office duties? Yes. He never liked sitting in an office. he had a um an aversion to Excel spreadsheets. Um so yeah, that he liked being out and
02:44:38 Um so yeah, that he liked being out and about. And so by uh 2012, it seems that this is what he's having to do for at least 3 months and he's communicating that to you. Albeit he's saying it's down to the
02:44:55 Albeit he's saying it's down to the people uh within La La Land and within his film industry employment. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. Okay.
02:45:06 Um, moving to page uh 12 to 13.
02:45:28 We have an email now from um the 15th of April 2012.
02:45:34 Um a paragraph three.
02:45:44 Um,
02:45:57 sorry, I think it's the paragraph just above.
02:46:13 Sorry. If you can take uh page 13 of this of this page, please.
02:46:28 Um sorry, bear with me. The the first paragraph on page 12 before we move on to page 13.
02:46:37 So this is a a 2012 document in April. I had, dearest Ellie, I had intended to reply to your at last immediately, as I thought uh with you laid up with a bad back, you'd have uh not a lot else to
02:46:52 back, you'd have uh not a lot else to occupy yourself with. Actually, I quite often think of you laid up, albeit not with a bad back. And this reflection distracted me for a while. Then I also remembered all that studying you'll have to put up you have to put in and decided that while it was no problem for me to
02:47:04 that while it was no problem for me to be distracted with or without lingerie photos postcript to your last noted it would not do for you to be reading
02:47:22 would not do for you to be reading anything that didn't have a picture of a femur or fetus in it. Um, and then moving on to the next page, paragraph three.
02:47:36 He does say here, I finally broken broken free. Sorry about the winging tone of my last email, by the way. Does that make me a souk, too? And I'm once
02:47:47 that make me a souk, too? And I'm once again out in the daylight. Predictably enough, it's straight off to Afghanistan. And it has been noted by my peers that it is not entirely normal to prefer that to a nice cozy, well- paid office job,
02:48:01 to a nice cozy, well- paid office job, but I bloody do and not by a little bit. Um,
02:48:09 in this email again, there's the the the the sexual nature of the the communications between you both in that first paragraph that run seems to run throughout the
02:48:21 run seems to run throughout the communications with you. Is that fair? Yes. Yeah, that's fair. And here again, he's talking about um uh uh wanting to be out and about uh not
02:48:38 uh wanting to be out and about uh not stuck in an office. He's he's wanting to be out um in uh far-flung places. Yes.
02:48:41 Um
02:48:47 there comes an email later on. This is at page 15
02:48:54 of this document. It's an email from the 17th of June 2012.
02:49:00 Paragraph 1 to three.
02:49:13 um where he says, "Dearest Ellie, I know it's your turn, but I thought I'd ping you a couple of pictures to demonstrate how completely my escape from the LA and London office has been." The first is a picture of my commute, which beats the
02:49:25 picture of my commute, which beats the hell out of both the freeways of South LA and the traffic grind around Soho. Admittedly, the locals have a tendency towards winging rockets rockets up at
02:49:38 towards winging rockets rockets up at you, but I suspect that happens in parts of LA, too, and small AR arms fire is rife.
02:49:43 rife. The second is a group hug photo of my new best friends. I'm the one hiding behind the statue, just visible under the eagle's right wing, but you may have
02:49:56 the eagle's right wing, but you may have to zoom in a bit to confirm the tan. and I presume you're still in the depth of winter.
02:50:01 winter. In this in these photographs that he sent to you, um he is sending pictures of him in far-flung places with other people. Um, and
02:50:16 and within those photos, if you can remember what they are, we're not going to show them today. But if you can remember that, um, other people in uniforms with guns. Do you recall that? Yes, I know the photos.
02:50:32 Yes, I know the photos. Okay. And what did you think about those photos when you saw those for the first time?
02:50:42 Initially, I found the whole thing quite interesting. I wanted to know what he was doing, why he was in that situ, who they were. I had a lot of questions
02:50:55 later on. It's it has raised some concerns.
02:50:59 concerns. Okay. And what are those concerns that you hold now about his activities during the time that you were in a relationship with him or since? Since. So he
02:51:10 Since. So he when he knew the inquiry was going on, he did ask for our address. Um, which I think was that email you showed earlier on about Google Maps. He's never done that before.
02:51:23 that before. um just given the kind of work he did, the kind of person, the kind of people that the UCOs seem to be and the kind of interaction he has with people like you
02:51:40 interaction he has with people like you said like private contractors with guns, it it raises a bit of concern um just for safety really, especially if who safety, sorry to interrupt you, but who safety? just for for my safety for
02:51:55 who safety? just for for my safety for Wendy's, safety for anyone that's close to me. Um, I do sometimes wonder if maybe they that he would feel angry that I'm doing this and betrayed and he would want revenge.
02:52:02 revenge. So, sort of when this is all over and I've given evidence, I do think that I'm in a more vulnerable position and it's
02:52:13 in a more vulnerable position and it's more dangerous because if he wanted to if if he wanted to exact revenge that that would be the time he would do it
02:52:24 that would be the time he would do it and he has contacts and he has the means and he has the opportunity. Okay.
02:52:26 Okay. At the bottom of that email,
02:52:40 he signs off again with nonetheless sent with all my love as ever was and still thinking of you far more than is good for me and not always undressed uh James kiss. So again that sense that the sexual nature of his
02:52:55 that sense that the sexual nature of his desire is expressed in the in the emails throughout. Yeah. That that was quite a common um a common way that he would write. Okay.
02:53:05 Okay. Um page 16 please.
02:53:14 This is an email from the 4th of September 2002. Paragraph one. Um, he says, "Firstly, I'm very sorry to
02:53:29 Um, he says, "Firstly, I'm very sorry to hear about Wendy and Privacy. I met them both in London when they were over over once, and I thought they seemed well sorted. Um, and surprisingly, I'm actually not very good at relationship stuff, so no change of my 100% wrong
02:53:40 stuff, so no change of my 100% wrong record here. Can you let me know how she seems after you get back from your road trip and give me her email address? I've lost it on an old computer. And if you think it's wise, I'll send her an email directly.
02:53:58 directly. You were aware then at the time that he was directly uh in contact with Wendy both through meeting in person and possibly email communication. Is that right?
02:54:10 right? Yes. Yeah. They remained friends and they remained in touch for um as long as as long as we did. Okay. And her understanding at that time, did you discuss James with her?
02:54:24 time, did you discuss James with her? Was her understanding similar to yours as to where he was, what he was doing in terms of employment? Yes, she was going over to um America at one point and she emailed him to say, "Should we meet up in LA?" Um,
02:54:42 "Should we meet up in LA?" Um, and then he said, um, actually he wasn't there at that time. He was in the UK. Okay.
02:54:48 Okay. Is that was that email 2012 or 2002? 20
03:06:58 renting and looking Were you looking to buy some land at that stage? No, that's um No. [sighs] So, that might have been talk of um retirement.
03:07:12 retirement. Okay. buying land, putting a little house on it, having a veggie patch, all that Disney stuff. He says, "I could continue my Google Earth." Sorry, I'll start again. I could continue my Google Earth stalking of
03:07:24 continue my Google Earth stalking of you, which I confess hasn't been a huge success so far. I think you rent the place you're in now, don't you? That Google Earth stalking, what's he referring to there?
03:07:36 referring to there? Yeah. So, I'm assuming there that maybe he was
03:07:42 he was looking up roughly where I lived and the sort of area I lived.
03:07:55 I mean, that's all I can think. The next paragraph goes on to trying to organize a time to meet up again. Um, asking about your plans for August. Um, so by this time 2014, you're still meeting up, trying to arrange
03:08:09 meeting up, trying to arrange a convenient time for both of you to to meet.
03:08:11 meet. Yes.
03:08:16 Yes. And then in the next paragraph down, he says, "Now I'd better go and do some serious studying and absolutely not get distracted, but any thoughts of the mischief I would like to get up to," in brackets referred to in almost every
03:08:30 brackets referred to in almost every paragraph above. Sorry about that. It's your body after all. But it's the sort of mischief I'm feeling most inclined to. Um, don't think I'm going to even finish this, much less read about analyt analytical nar narratives.
03:08:41 analytical nar narratives. uh better things to to occupy my mind.
03:08:52 uh better things to to occupy my mind. And PS, despite my distraction, this was sent as is always the case with all my love. Jay and PPS photos attached include an indication of how 50s it is,
03:09:06 include an indication of how 50s it is, the right sort of bike and the house I'd like. Um and uh it concludes just after that.
03:09:08 that. So again, he's talking about how he feels about you, uh his sexual desire about you, um and that you are occupying his mind regularly
03:09:20 his mind regularly in that way. Yeah, that that's what he says.
03:09:31 Yeah, that that's what he says. Okay. And sends with all his love. So, you're still under the impression that he
03:09:33 he he he he's at least thinking about you in a sexual way uh all this time later. Yes, I was.
03:09:50 Um,
03:10:01 that concludes what I want to say about this particular exhibit.
03:10:11 Um, if we can display now, this is a document that's in the supplemental bundle.
03:10:16 So, it's MPS07197018.
03:10:29 It's behind tab E1, sir. Page eight. It's the last paragraph.
03:10:38 This is a document entitled magenta triangle extraction chronology and timetable and we can see it's a long document it's eight pages long and it talks about the different stages of his
03:10:49 talks about the different stages of his extraction. So this is the type of work that was going into his withdrawal from his SDS operation in the runup to him leaving in 2002.
03:11:02 leaving in 2002. Um and it's a protracted uh withdrawal but at the end the last paragraph says
03:11:14 but at the end the last paragraph says that um gradually of course these emails will get shorter and more rushed. For his part, MT meaning magenta triangle will demonstrate less interest in them
03:11:28 will demonstrate less interest in them and their doings, referring to what was termed the wearies or the target group and correspondingly more in himself and his career so that his correspondents feel inclined not to bother with MT
03:11:43 feel inclined not to bother with MT eventually. These emails should include mention of brief returns to the UK during which MT is too busy to see them as well as covering possible sightings. This is also likely to gradually
03:11:55 This is also likely to gradually disinish uh diminish his standing as a comrade and friend and lead to a sodom then attitude. So the concluding part of this
03:12:13 So the concluding part of this extraction document says that at the end when he finally moves away from his group from his so-called weies emails will get shorter more rushed um not really uh showing an interest
03:12:27 um not really uh showing an interest will come back to the UK but too busy to see people and that will I in response generate a a a feeling amongst the people that he knew in his within his
03:12:41 people that he knew in his within his deployment as a a sodom then attitude. Not going to keep in contact. Um that clearly didn't happen in your case, did it?
03:12:57 it? No. Nor in nor in Wendy's. That's quite a that's quite an intensive extraction. Yeah.
03:12:59 Yeah. Um, but no, that that didn't happen. And I I don't know. I do sometimes wonder if it ever would have.
03:13:15 it ever would have. Okay. In fact, quite quite the opposite. Long emails still, even as far on as 2014,
03:13:17 2014, um, still showing a a great deal of interest in you and wanting to meet up and spend time with you when you came back to England.
03:13:29 back to England. Yeah, we were. Yeah. Um,
03:13:38 in James James's uh witness statement at paragraph 310, I don't need to show it on screen, but James accepts that he contacted you in
03:13:50 James accepts that he contacted you in May 2002 as soon as uh shortly shortly after leaving the SDS to say that he was visiting the UK and would like to meet and thereafter he
03:14:02 would like to meet and thereafter he admits that in person you met every 3 to four years whenever you were both in London and plus you exchanged emails once or twice a year. How accurate do you say that that is?
03:14:19 you say that that is? I I don't think that's accurate. We met up more often than that. Um the the longest we went meeting up was when I was in Australia and it would be every two years. That was the longest um pre uh before COVID
03:14:31 was the longest um pre uh before COVID that was the longest I've been be away from the UK. Um with regards to emails, we emailed much more regularly than that. Okay.
03:14:52 Okay. Um if I can just go back to that email, that email that he sent to you shortly after his deployment ended back in um March 2002. the email that he sent to you on Wednesday uh the 8th of May 2002. It's UCPI 38289
03:15:06 It's UCPI 38289 page two.
03:15:20 It's the third paragraph.
03:15:42 um halfway through this paragraph, this is when he's talking about being in his West Hollywood um accommodation in his apartment.
03:15:54 his apartment. He says there, "Of course I couldn't un uh of course I couldn't understand the word they said, but whatever it was seemed agreeable enough actually. Actually, unless I get my ass." That's the local colloquialism for ass in these parts. Oh, and that's just reminded me
03:16:07 parts. Oh, and that's just reminded me of yours. But moving swiftly on, and he goes on then to talk about something else. This reference to your ass and how he thinks moving swiftly on that was
03:16:22 he thinks moving swiftly on that was present from the very start from that first email he sent you in May 2002 right through to as far as we've got in the communications now 2014. So it's
03:16:35 the communications now 2014. So it's going on over at at least 12 years isn't it?
03:16:36 it? Yes. Okay. Yeah.
03:16:42 Yeah. And then um I want to take you to what happened in 2015.
03:16:57 Yeah. We slept together. Yeah. Um can you tell us a little bit about what happened in 2015 when you came back to visit uh England?
03:17:06 So I came back, visited England. At the end of my stay, I was in a um I was in a hotel near Heathro,
03:17:17 um I was in a hotel near Heathro, which I often did to make sure I didn't get stuck in traffic. So if I had an early flight, I'd stay overnight in a hotel near the airport so I had plenty of time.
03:17:32 so I had plenty of time. Um, and he knew this and we had arranged to meet up um, which we did and just just before we get to the the Heathro Hotel, had you you'd met him I think a couple of times before during
03:17:46 think a couple of times before during the course of your stay here in England, had you?
03:17:52 had you? I think so. I think we met up once and then this was the second time. Okay. Um
03:17:55 Okay. Um so the the reference to this and the exhibit that relates to this is exhibit
03:18:10 exhibit that relates to this is exhibit 9. It's behind tab A11 of the bundle. If I can have up UCPI 38294, please.
03:18:22 Um if we go to page two first
03:18:37 these are WhatsApp messages or text messages are they?
03:18:45 Oh I think and we can see this is the 11th of June 2015.
03:18:47 2015. So just to put this in context, um Theresa May by this time had announced the statutory inquiry
03:18:58 the statutory inquiry uh prior to this date. So I think there was there was certainly reference to the form that it would take on on the 12th
03:19:10 form that it would take on on the 12th of March 2015. There'd been talk of the inquiry before then in 2014. So by the
03:19:24 inquiry before then in 2014. So by the time you're meeting up now in June 2015, it's clear that an inquiry is going to take place into the SDS operations. Okay.
03:19:30 Okay. Yes. Yeah. And that so I'm I'm guessing he knew that would probably be the last time that we would see each other. Were you aware of the inquiry at that stage?
03:19:37 stage? Didn't have a clue. No. Um the first um uh gray box. So this is James
03:19:50 James uh texting you. God, you look good. So I was distracted so forgot glasses. Bet you missed the train. That was when you you met up first on this visit. Was it? Must have been. Yes.
03:19:59 Yes. So that was the 11th of June. And then moving on, we get to uh text on the 22nd of June 2015.
03:20:20 And he said, and and the gray box, are you awake yet? Looks like I'm going to
03:20:31 you awake yet? Looks like I'm going to have to head back to La La Land. Sorry, to LA fairly urgently. Laala being a reference to Hollywood. Is that yeah LA
03:20:34 yeah LA um awaiting flight to be booked not as yet or not not as organized as you have you a plan for the next couple of days give me a ring to discuss
03:20:49 give me a ring to discuss and it seems then are you likely to have spoken before the next message which is your plan is good I'll have to head back by 8:00 to get the Gatwick tonight.
03:21:03 by 8:00 to get the Gatwick tonight. It looks like maybe you had a phone call to arrange meeting up. Maybe we had a phone call. Yes. Okay.
03:21:09 Okay. Um
03:21:15 he's he's asking about this meetup. It's not you chasing him, it seems, from these um uh text messages. Is that fair?
03:21:33 uh text messages. Is that fair? That's fair. But we were um close closer than we had been in previous years leading up to this. Okay. So the relationship by now in 2015 has intensified a bit has it? It had a little bit. Yes.
03:21:49 It had a little bit. Yes. Um page four then we move to the 23rd of June 2015
03:21:55 and he asks are you in Heathrow land yet? and you reply just checked in and this is um about 204 to midnight almost.
03:22:14 this is um about 204 to midnight almost. Um he's not too far away. 20 minutes. Um and then he says, "I'm in the foyer. I can't find you. You're upstairs." And then next page,
03:22:31 um halfway down, we see the next response is at uh 4:39 in the morning. And he says, "Should have allowed more time to find my way back out of the hotel. Really good to see more of you this trip." In brackets, "Did you see what I did there?
03:22:46 "Did you see what I did there? and we'll look forward to the next time, whenever, and wherever it be. Um, can you just put that into context as to what actually happened that night?
03:23:04 as to what actually happened that night? I I can I know it says 4:39 in the morning, but I think that was probably because that was still on Australian time.
03:23:12 time. Okay. So it was actually in the evening but yeah we had met up we'd gone out and then we'd come back to the hotel and we had had sex. Okay.
03:23:18 Okay. And your understanding of the relationship at that stage was what
03:23:30 I I didn't know. That did that did throw me a little bit that confused me. Um, and afterwards he seemed a little just it was it was a bit diff it was a
03:23:43 just it was it was a bit diff it was a bit odd. I couldn't put my finger on on on what, but I was just I was I was like, "Oh, this this might have been a mistake, and I don't quite know what to make of it, and I don't know how I feel about it."
03:23:54 So, it it it confused things.
03:24:03 James has said in his witness statement to this inquiry uh 3LE 53
03:24:14 uh 3LE 53 paragraph 313 I'm not going to show it but he says apart from one further sexual encounter in 2015 the relationship was platonic following the conclusion of his operation
03:24:25 operation in terms of the element of sexual desire
03:24:36 in terms of the element of sexual desire What's what's your comment about that? I think you have said before it's kind of platonic, but there was something else going on. Yeah, because it wasn't a relationship and it wasn't a friendship. It was somewhere in the middle. I always said it was a forced platonic situation just given geography.
03:24:52 situation just given geography. But um from an from a emotional point of view, I felt it was more than that.
03:25:06 So I do have another couple of topics just to look at. It shouldn't take too long, but I am aware that the stenographer has been going now for some time. Um, and with it being midday, if we could take a five minute break, I think
03:25:21 think I take it you would like a break. Yes, please. And is 5 minutes long enough or do you do 10?
03:25:28 do 10? Okay, then we we're going to break for five minutes to let the shorthand writers have a short break. They have a lot to do and uh they need the odd break just as you do. Perfect.
03:25:40 Perfect. Not too far off the end, however, I hope.
03:25:42 hope. Great. Thanks.
03:32:30 Yes, thank you.
03:32:41 thank you. If I can have up on screen please. Um, behind tab A12 it's exhibit 8 UCPI 38293.
03:32:53 Ellie, I'd like to ask you about now what happened in 2018 when there was contact by James Thompson to you um via WhatsApp.
03:33:04 Page two, please.
03:33:17 Um we can see that um the top date is the 11th of April. Um, that's when we understand that James first WhatsAppapped you in 2018 to ask for you to be in contact with him.
03:33:29 for you to be in contact with him. Can you tell us between the time that you had sex in in Heathrow in [snorts] 2015
03:33:42 2015 and this communication in 2018? What was the nature of your uh relationship or friendship then? in those three years. Can you recall?
03:33:53 those three years. Can you recall? Yeah. After after 2015, I wondered if things would change and I was I was happy that they hadn't. So, we again we
03:34:07 happy that they hadn't. So, we again we carried on in exactly the same way that we had always carried on. The only the only thing of note is that um
03:34:21 only thing of note is that um Wendy and I had purchased a prop a house um and we we'd split it between us and he'd asked for our address which was um
03:34:33 which was um 2017 I think that was that was the only thing that was vaguely different and then this message okay out the
03:34:39 Okay. And you replied on the 17th of April to say, "So, you've broken your phone," which explains why you took some days to respond to him. Um, but said, "How does tonight sound? Um, I should be
03:34:57 "How does tonight sound? Um, I should be in from work about 7:00 Australian time. I have no idea where you are, but is that civilized?" And and that's because you didn't know whereabouts in the world he was. Is is that right? Okay. Yes. Didn't know what time
03:35:10 Didn't know what time I think the phone number that he contacted me on was seemed to be an Egyptian phone number. Okay.
03:35:13 Okay. We understand that um and this is referenced at paragraph 320 in James
03:35:25 referenced at paragraph 320 in James Thompson's witness statement and there is reference to his earlier witness statement to this um inquiry which he gave in 2017.
03:35:37 gave in 2017. Sir for your reference that is UCPI 35223.
03:35:52 that on the 17th of April he signed a witness statement for the purposes of of giving that to the this inquiry um that he h had potentially an old email address for you but didn't explain that he was in contact with you had your phone
03:36:04 in contact with you had your phone number for instance were you aware of that did he ever tell you that at the
03:36:18 that did he ever tell you that at the time when you were communicating at this time that he had told the inquiry about his relationship with you. I I didn't know the inquiry existed until he told me um in that in that phone call.
03:36:33 phone call. Um but he didn't say anything about having written a a witness statement for the inquiry. Not No, not as far as I can remember. No. And did he inform you? So he didn't
03:36:50 No. And did he inform you? So he didn't say, as far as you knew, that he had uh suggested he might be able to get some contact with you through an old email address.
03:36:54 address. Is this when we were having the conversation, the phone conversation? Um, no. He never he never said anything about that. Um,
03:37:10 so if we turn to the next page of this document, page three, we can see that there's some communication about arranging the phone call. And at the bottom, you say, "Sounds perfect. Not the lack of wine,
03:37:23 "Sounds perfect. Not the lack of wine, but the other bit, give me 10 minutes." and over the page.
03:37:33 This now moves to September 2018. So,
03:37:35 So, can you tell us what happened on the 18th of April? If we go back to page three,
03:37:48 three, this I think at the bottom of the page is where you have a conversation on the 18th. on the 18th of April 2018.
03:38:07 on the 18th. on the 18th of April 2018. So he rang um and I'd gone into my room for some privacy. Um and it was there was a few seconds of just
03:38:08 just superficial hi, how you going? How you doing? And then he's just launched into saying that um back when we were dating
03:38:22 back when we were dating um he had actually been undercover and
03:38:28 it was it was about a half an hour conversation where he was he said, "Look, there's a there's a bit of an inquiry going on. They may try and contact you." and then
03:38:40 and then talked about it a little bit.
03:38:50 Did he ask anything of you at the time? Did he ask you to do anything in particular or not do anything?
03:38:58 No, I don't I don't think so. Um that so the conversation itself was a bit of a shock.
03:39:11 was a bit of a shock. And there's this just this weird numbness
03:39:12 numbness that happened. Just like just I I've never felt anything like it. I can't explain it. Just really just a strange feeling. I didn't quite know
03:39:27 strange feeling. I didn't quite know what to think. I didn't quite know what to ask. I wasn't quite making sense of it. I thought the way he was talking that maybe everything was real apart from his job. I thought maybe he wasn't a locations manager.
03:39:43 manager. And it was only as things progressed that he was talking about Wendy and all the rest of it. And then he said, "The inquiry will probably tell you my
03:39:57 "The inquiry will probably tell you my real name." And that hit quite hard cuz I was like, "Oh no, everything's a lie." And and that that
03:40:08 everything's a lie." And and that that hit home a little bit. Um, I don't think he I don't think he asked me to do anything.
03:40:21 anything. Okay. So, by now we're 16 years on from when he ostensibly left to go to America,
03:40:22 America, aren't we? So he left um in 2002 after your relationship of about 10 months or a year
03:40:37 months or a year and we're 16 years later now having had that form of a relationship, that longdistance friendship relationship, and now you're being told that he's not who he said he was.
03:40:50 who he said he was. Yes.
03:40:59 Um, what did you do after you put down the phone to him? Then
03:41:08 sat there for for a bit. I genuinely I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to think. I didn't know what to do. Wendy had, we were housemates again, Wendy and I, and she was in the lounge,
03:41:22 was in the lounge, and he'd said, "Oh, maybe don't tell Wendy. She'll be angry." And I'm like, I I have to tell I [snorts] have to tell her. Um, but
03:41:37 I [snorts] have to tell her. Um, but I I just I just did not know what to do. So, I went I had a shower and I sat in the shower and I had my my sort of
03:41:48 the shower and I had my my sort of forehead against the tiles and I just thought for a bit and I thought just don't do anything for 24 hours and then tell Wendy and don't plan anything beyond that. And so that's what I did. But that that next week
03:41:59 next week kind of like being in a dream like I don't really I don't really remember it very well. I don't know why. I just don't.
03:42:08 don't. Did you have any sense of what you might do in relation to the inquiry, whether you would need to be involved in that at all?
03:42:32 I had no idea. I I had no idea really what it was and what he was or anything like that. I when I told Wendy, she she went very still. And then she then she she knew she had heard about the inquiry.
03:42:44 heard about the inquiry. So she pretty quickly cotened on to what was going on with it. Um I wasn't sure. I kind of thought from what he said that they were you were going to get in touch.
03:42:57 touch. So I just I thought I guess I I guess I'll wait and see. But
03:43:02 But honestly, weirdest weirdest feeling ever. I did not know which way was up. Okay,
03:43:18 Okay, the next page of this document is uh it shows messages, WhatsApp messages from the 12th of September, 2018. Okay. Um, was that the next contact you had or had you some form of uh,
03:43:29 had or had you some form of uh, communication in between those times from when you spoke on the 18th of April to when you received this message from James on the 12th of September?
03:43:43 James on the 12th of September? Sorry, it looks like it's on the Friday the 7th of September. We'd had no contact at all between between the two. I think this was in relation to I had come forward to the in I'd contacted the lawyers and then
03:43:56 I'd contacted the lawyers and then through them I'd come forward to the inquiry and he'd obviously heard about that and then he'd messaged. Okay. And he messages you. Hi Ellie. Hope this finds you doing well. Heard
03:44:08 Hope this finds you doing well. Heard from solicitors to say you had been in touch with the inquiry in the UK. As I said when we spoke, that's absolutely your right and I will continue to respect whatever decisions you make. So
03:44:19 respect whatever decisions you make. So really only wanted to say that if you do still want to discuss any of this at the personal level, then that offer also stays open and I will be happy to speak
03:44:32 stays open and I will be happy to speak to you and to explain at least as far as I can anything you want to ask. Obviously if you don't want to speak or have been advised against it then please just ignore this. Good luck for the
03:44:46 just ignore this. Good luck for the future wherever it may might take you. And then you respond f first off, how did you feel about receiving that text message? I felt sick. I was at work and clearly I do not have a poker face. I
03:45:01 clearly I do not have a poker face. I got the message and I stopped and one of my colleagues went, "Oh my god, are you okay?" And I was like, "Fine." And had to Oh, I thought I was going to vomit. I had to leave the room. And why was that? What was it about that text that made you feel
03:45:14 you feel nauseous?
03:45:17 nauseous? The fact that he contacted the fact that he knew. Um I kind of I know it sounds weird, but I also thought I betrayed him a little bit by coming forward and I knew that wasn't the case, but I still felt that way. So just getting that
03:45:30 felt that way. So just getting that contact from him out the blue after after those months was a bit of a shock.
03:45:41 You respond by saying, "Hey, James, after we last spoke, I stupidly read up on everything, and I'm embarrassed embarrassed to admit that it's thrown me way more than I could have imagined. While I have a lot of questions about this whole thing, I am becoming increasingly aware that it's highly
03:45:52 increasingly aware that it's highly unlikely I will ever get any answers, and that is something that just has to be dealt with. I have I've been advised not to have any more contact with you
03:46:04 not to have any more contact with you and I also think given everything that's going on and how I'm a bit of a mess at the moment that this is for the best. I sincerely hope that this can be res resolved quickly so we can all get past it.
03:46:18 it. When you say you were a bit of a mess at the moment, what did you mean? I had been researching quite a lot for
03:46:31 for for months, I think, just trying to work out what was going on, what was happening, who he was, who they were. I was also slightly well was very paranoid that they were watching me.
03:46:44 that they were watching me. I was I was all over the shop.
03:46:52 Going back to the very start of your relationship with James, you talked about being in a bit of a mess at that time in your life as well when you had just left the animal
03:47:05 when you had just left the animal hospital and the accommodation setup that you had with your senior colleague. Um,
03:47:19 Um, did it feel similar to that that kind of a bit of a mess in your life at that stage?
03:47:22 stage? It was different. How
03:47:22 How it was
03:47:27 it was it had just turned everything on its head.
03:47:31 head. Like the wildlife hospital thing I could deal with
03:47:34 deal with this I was really struggling to get past.
03:47:42 Looking back to that time in 2001 when you first started going out with James,
03:47:53 you first started going out with James, did he know about the situation you had with that senior colleague or not? Did you speak to him about it? I talked about it and um I think Wendy had talked about it as well. Um,
03:48:05 Um, what had your relationship with men been like until that point?
03:48:10 Until the wildlife hospital?
03:48:20 How do you mean sorry? um in terms of uh any
03:48:23 any the relationship clearly with the senior colleague was not a good relationship uh wi with a man. Um
03:48:35 I suppose if I put it this way, how did the way that you realized James had treated you by the time you got to find out in 2018 that he'd deceived you about his identity?
03:48:46 his identity? What was the cumulative impact of that on on you in terms of your experience uh with with men in that respon in that regard?
03:49:00 regard? Yes. So James had sort of restored my faith a little bit in men being honest and upfront and decent and trustworthy and all of that kind of thing. So I got that very wrong.
03:49:18 And so that illusion had been taken away from you.
03:49:19 from you. Absolutely. Absolutely shattered.
03:49:31 In his witness statement at paragraph 317,
03:49:35 317, he says he gave no consideration to the possible impact on you because he thought you would never find out. How do you feel about that? Yeah. Like would would this have carried on? How long would this have carried on
03:49:49 on? How long would this have carried on for with with Wendy as well? Like would this
03:49:52 this would this have gone on forever? Would he have ever cut contact or said anything or like that? [clears throat] How could you keep it going that long? That's just bizarre to me. That's just weird.
03:50:15 um in general the impact on you. Can you can you describe how that's impacted on your life more generally rather than just the physical emotional side of things? Oh, I hate talking about this. Um
03:50:28 I mean I'm I don't really trust people anymore. I don't make new friends. I I do stalk people a little bit if if I've if I've met someone or they're friends. We had one friend that's we
03:50:40 friends. We had one friend that's we just we met while out walking and had a lot in common and we became friends and I I stalked her Facebook. I went back as far as I could just to see who she was
03:50:57 far as I could just to see who she was and what she was. And then it turned out that she was connected to someone who was connected to someone who was connected to John Dyn. And I just went off on a tangent and I was like, "Well, she's one of them and didn't quite know how to deal with that." I I can't drive my car. Sounds
03:51:15 that." I I can't drive my car. Sounds really weird. Until I check my boot. I'm going to get upset. I'm sorry. It's okay.
03:51:27 Would you like to take a minute? Of course.
03:51:38 We'll um pause now. Um let could you let us know when you're ready to resume if if you want? Of course. In 5 minutes. Yes. Thank you. All right.
04:05:04 I I understand the position to be that there are not very many more questions of you now, but you would prefer to be re-examined by Miss Gilroy on the date that has been fixed for you
04:05:17 on the date that has been fixed for you to come back, the 3rd of November. Have I answered it correctly? Correct. Yes, of course. Sorry about the mess. I'll try not to do that again. No, please. You're speaking of events that none of us here, I suspect, have
04:05:28 that none of us here, I suspect, have ever experienced personally, anything even remotely like it. And um I entirely understand that it is not easy. And I I say now I am very grateful to you for
04:05:40 say now I am very grateful to you for taking the trouble to give oral evidence to me. Uh, and um, you need to apologize for nothing. Thank you. Okay. Yes.
04:05:50 Yes. Thank you,
04:05:56 Ellie. It's apparent from your evidence that officer James Thompson had a deceitful relationship with you that lasted about 17 years in one form or
04:06:10 lasted about 17 years in one form or another from the age that you were about 21 to 38 years old. And for many people that's prime time for finding a suitable partner.
04:06:20 partner. To what extent did your relationship with James influence your life choices in general in respect of romantic relationships?
04:06:32 relationships? Yeah. So he he and I
04:06:41 dating dating him. I sort of held that as the standard because we got on so well cuz we were so similar cuz I could be myself more. it and it because it was such a good relationship
04:06:54 relationship and my first one I was like well this is what you could have so don't really settle for anything else
04:07:05 for anything else which as it turns out anything else was actually legitimately real and this wasn't. So there's that and that sense of a a James Bond character that we spoke about earlier.
04:07:18 character that we spoke about earlier. Um this lovable affable rogue who is you know a charm a charming person
04:07:30 know a charm a charming person doesn't really do too much damage at the end of the day. What do you say about that? Is is he really a a James Bond character? I just think he's a bit of a No, I don't think he's a James Bond character. I'm not going to swear, but no, I don't I don't think there's
04:07:43 no, I don't I don't think there's anything lovable or roguish about it to be honest with you. How would you describe the way that he treated you?
04:07:56 treated you? I I would really love to know what he what he was doing and what he thought he was doing. I don't for one second believe that any of it was legitimate. Um, and I think I've said that in my statement. Um Sara, Wendy, and myself
04:08:09 statement. Um Sara, Wendy, and myself are very different people. Um and all three of us thought highly of him and like and Sara and I dated him and we're very different people. So for both of us to think that
04:08:21 people. So for both of us to think that it was great suggests that he was a bit of a chameleon, which means none of it was genuine. When I was looking all of this up, I found a thing um an article by I think it was the Undercover
04:08:32 by I think it was the Undercover Research Group. I can't remember who it was, but they they said, "Oh, you know, you might have known one of these officers if and they listed about 15 things."
04:08:43 things." And he fit, I think, 12 of them. And it just brought it home that it wasn't that none of it was actually real. So whether he was doing it for his ego or because
04:08:54 he was doing it for his ego or because it was a bit of fun or because he just got off on it, I don't know. But I I I'm I know it wasn't real now. I know it wasn't real.
04:09:11 wasn't real. And when you say it wasn't real, the tactics that he used, what do you say about those in terms of how he infiltrated your personal life?
04:09:23 infiltrated your personal life? I mean, it was it was just so completely unnecessary. the people that he was going after, the people that they were spying on, like to me, they didn't need to be spied on, and it was political stuff. It
04:09:35 on, and it was political stuff. It wasn't even policing. They weren't breaking the law. It was just it was it just seemed to be very politically motivated and very over the top, especially for the kind of information
04:09:50 especially for the kind of information they were getting that they were looking for. You could get that from by being very superficial. But he did this massive deep dive into everything I think just for fun and just because he could.
04:10:08 could. Do you get the sense that you played a part or you were forced to play a part in that deployment in his cover, his legend?
04:10:15 legend? I mean, I helped him gain access to Wendy's house. Um, and I helped legitimize him. In what way? Because he was going out with someone and it it just helped and [clears throat] the length of time
04:10:27 and [clears throat] the length of time he was undercover and the fact that he was dating people, I think, legitimized him as a as a real person and not this undercover person.
04:10:40 undercover person. And getting access to Wendy's house, how would that have assisted? I so I remember one time in particular I woke up at night he was staying over and he wasn't in bed and I was like oh maybe
04:10:56 he wasn't in bed and I was like oh maybe he's gone to the Lou or something um and he didn't he didn't come back for ages and then I heard him come upstairs um
04:11:06 and then I heard him come upstairs um and the house was on three levels so you had the kitchen downstairs and then you had the lounge room, a bathroom and my room on the middle level and then you had um Wendy and my sister had bedrooms on on the top level. So, he'd been down
04:11:17 on on the top level. So, he'd been down in the kitchen that whole time. And the kitchen was sort of that the heart of the home. It's where we spent a lot of time. It's where you'd come home and you'd pop your bag down. It's where we talked a lot about stuff. Um,
04:11:31 talked a lot about stuff. Um, and it's where we kept things, certain things, certain paperwork, keys, all of that kind of stuff was all down in that kitchen. So he had access to that all night if he wanted it.
04:11:52 to that all night if he wanted it. And do you think he did access that or what what do you recall about? I I think also he had ample opportunity and this is where I sound paranoid to plant bugs um in the house
04:12:04 um in the house and I think that's what he would have done or bug the telephone or bug the room so that he could hear us talking and he can hear Wendy talking if she had other friends come around he could eaves drop on their conversations
04:12:24 overall. Ellie James Thompson's deployment impacted on your life from about the age of 20 when you say you first met him that first time you met at the wildlife hospital back in 2000 99200 I think you said it was
04:12:37 I think you said it was and you're clearly still dealing with the impact to date um not least the ordeal of coming here and giving your evidence uh to this inquiry
04:12:49 evidence uh to this inquiry that's at least 25 years and you're now in your mid4s. Um,
04:13:01 Um, overall, Ellie, it's it's been something that's impacted you for a a major proportion of your life. Is there anything you would like to say further now and this is my final question
04:13:16 question uh that you would like this inquiry to understand about your experience of undercover policing
04:13:24 about oh god about my experience of undercover policing I yeah I it has I mean the police especially the Met never had the best reputation
04:13:35 never had the best reputation Um and they have been known to be um
04:13:43 a number of things, corrupt, racist, misogynistic, the whole lot. The general consensus is um it's not a case of a bad one bad apple, it's the whole orchard.
04:13:58 one bad apple, it's the whole orchard. But for them to know that they did this and to know that they did it to groups that were just speaking out about stuff they believed in and even think unions
04:14:11 um justice campaigns for families. I'm not going to get upset again. Hold that thought. que
04:14:23 thought. que you mentioned the word misogyny and um your own physical and uh personal space. What would you say specifically about that?
04:14:26 that? Just yeah, just the the level of intrusion
04:14:28 intrusion was unbelievable. Just and just whoever thought that was necessary and relevant just needs their head read like I'm not good at this
04:14:39 head read like I'm not good at this stuff. Sorry. But yeah, just absolute waste of time, waste of resources, and completely pointless and over the top and
04:14:48 and invasive.
04:14:54 Thank you. Those are all the questions that I have.
04:15:05 that I have. Um I understand that you will be um willing to come back to complete your evidence when Miss Koy will want to re-examine you. Um yes,
04:15:07 yes, on the 3rd of November. Uh Would it be um possible for you to begin at 10:00 our time rather than 9:00 our time? It makes like 100%. Absolutely. Yeah.
04:15:19 100%. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm very grateful to you for that. Um Mroy, do you need to speak to um uh your witness in between now and then?
04:15:31 your witness in between now and then? I would be grateful if I could have the permission to do so on the usual basis. Yes, you do. Yes, of course you do. Yes. Um we will meet again then in um a little over a week's time.
04:15:45 little over a week's time. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.
04:16:00 We'll rise now. There's going to be um uh a fire alarm and evacuation of the building, but that does not apply to those conducting this inquiry. But we'll resume at two.