Wendy, an anonymous witness, gives testimony about undercover officer HN16 James Thompson (cover name James Straven, nicknamed 'James Blonde'). She describes meeting him at age 17 in the Croydon Hunt Saboteurs, his suspicious behavior that earned him the 'spy' nickname, and how he exploited her vulnerability during her mother's terminal illness. Wendy explains how Thompson systematically pursued the only single women in the group - first Sara, then attempted to pursue Wendy, then Ellie - and how she unwittingly facilitated both relationships.
00:26:09 good afternoon everybody. Um, those with uh electronic devices may use them to transmit what they have heard in the inquiry. uh but only 10 minutes uh after or more than 10 minutes after what they
00:26:25 or more than 10 minutes after what they are describing. Uh those devices may not be used to record and uh not that any are in this room or or photograph. Yes. May the witness be sworn please. Hello Wendy. Hello.
00:26:40 Hello. Hi. I'm the usher and I'm going to take you through the affirmation. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Thank you. Please can you repeat after me? I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:26:53 sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth
00:27:04 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you.
00:27:22 Yes. Um I I will refer to you throughout this hearing as Wendy uh because you've been granted anonymity. You provided a 30page signed witness statement to the inquiry. It was dated the 30th of May 2025.
00:27:36 the 30th of May 2025. Sir, it is at tab A1 in your bundle.
00:27:48 Sir, it is at tab A1 in your bundle. Wendy, can you confirm that the contents of your witness statement are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes, they are. That puts the whole of your witness statement into evidence. Now many of my questions will be about UCO HN16
00:28:09 questions will be about UCO HN16 undercover name James Straven code name Magenta Triangle but I will refer to him by his real name James Thompson. And just for the context of your
00:28:28 And just for the context of your evidence, James Thompson was deployed as an SDSU between January 1997 and March 2002.
00:28:35 Wendy, before I begin, may I just outline to you the areas of questioning that I'm going to ask you. Uh they will include how you became interested in
00:28:48 include how you became interested in animal rights and your involvement with the Cudden Hunt saboturs, your friendship and interaction with James Thompson, uh his relationship with Sara and Ellie, his reporting on you,
00:29:06 Sara and Ellie, his reporting on you, also the contact that James Thompson had with you after he finished his deployment, and finally the impact that James Thompson's conduct had on you.
00:29:16 you. Yeah.
00:29:23 Yeah. Let me begin with your interest in animal welfare and your involvement with the Cudden Hunt saboturs. Would it be fair to say that from a young age you developed a commitment to animal welfare?
00:29:36 animal welfare? Yes. I um I was always very keen on animals. Thought I was an animal lover. Um
00:29:46 lover. Um and then kind of got a bit of a shock when I first started learning about some of the things that I'd been inadvertedly
00:29:58 of the things that I'd been inadvertedly doing to animals. um when I kind of came across a an animal rights stool when I
00:30:09 across a an animal rights stool when I was about 14 and started actually paying a bit more attention to what I could do to at at the very least avoid harming animals. A and that
00:30:13 and that moment when you stopped at an animal
00:30:24 moment when you stopped at an animal welfare stand and began to pe speak to the people who are running the stand. Was that a turning point in in your life?
00:30:25 life? Yeah, I would say it was I I went vegetarian straight away. Um and I started attending protests. There was actually a a local vivction laboratory
00:30:38 actually a a local vivction laboratory um called Bibbra which was near near in
00:30:50 um called Bibbra which was near near in the area um that I could reach and um I learned about its existence. Um there were protests around that which I attended when I could. Um obviously I was 14 years old so everything was um you know wi with the uh reluctant
00:31:02 you know wi with the uh reluctant approval of my mother. Um but I became more and more involved in that kind of protest activity. And a couple of years after that, you have described how at
00:31:17 after that, you have described how at the age of 16, someone you knew told you about hunt sabotage by using voice calls, false scent trails to try and creep the hounds from chasing the foxes. Is that right?
00:31:31 Is that right? Yes, correct. that person wasn't actually a hunt sabotur, but they knew the hunt saboturs and so they kind of uh introduced me, I guess, and they they actually took me out on my first hunt where I I wasn't taking part as a
00:31:43 where I I wasn't taking part as a sabotur, but so that I had somebody there because I was still only 16 years old, um to show me, you know, introduce me to people, show me what it was going to be like if I did want to get more
00:31:57 to be like if I did want to get more involved. and I went out a couple of times that season. Um, and then I started attending regularly when I was 17.
00:32:09 17. So, how did you first become involved specifically with the Cudon Hunt saboturs?
00:32:16 saboturs? Um, that was just the group that the contact I had who wasn't a sabotur knew somebody who was. Um, I don't even remember who they knew. Um, but they were able to go, well, I'll I'll bring you out even though I'm not a SAB and
00:32:32 you out even though I'm not a SAB and we'll see what it's like and get a feel for it and I'll introduce you to a couple of people. Uh, we've heard about the Cudden Hunt saboturs. It's referred to in a number of intelligence reports, but could you
00:32:50 of intelligence reports, but could you paint a picture for us? So, for example, how many people were in the Cudden Hunt saboturs when you first began to associate with them? I mean, I think it's important to note it's not even though there is the hunt saboturs association, it's not like we
00:33:02 saboturs association, it's not like we sign up to a membership and have to, you know, commit to weekly meetings or anything like that. So, you you might go out one week and there was four people and then you might go out the next week and there would be 20 people. I would say there was a core group of around 10
00:33:19 say there was a core group of around 10 people who would be there if they could. In relation to that core group of 10, could you just help us with roughly how old they were, what sort of age were they?
00:33:31 they? Uh, I was the youngest. I don't think there was anybody else under 18, but there were certainly some um I think 19, 20, 21, and then there were some who
00:33:46 20, 21, and then there were some who were late 20s to early 30s. And that would probably be the the general, you know, it was quite physical. So, you know, now being in my 40s, I don't think I would be doing
00:33:57 40s, I don't think I would be doing running across fields I would be doing so well. And I think probably it put off people who um weren't up to the physicality of it.
00:34:09 physicality of it. So, you've helped us with the sort of age range. What about the number of men compared to number of women? Were there more men, more women, or about evenly based?
00:34:19 based? Uh, there were definitely more men than women. Uh, in the Cudden Sabs, I was
00:34:30 women. Uh, in the Cudden Sabs, I was mostly the only female out in the field. Sara obviously started attending, but was mostly map reading um, in the van as she spoke about. Um there was a couple more women in the
00:34:43 there was a couple more women in the Brixton group who we would sometimes be going out with. Um I would say they probably had three or four women that would come out sometimes. Um but in the Cuden group it was usually just me in
00:35:00 Cuden group it was usually just me in the field at at the time I joined. There was um another committed female who um came along later, but at that time I was the only one. Now during hunt season,
00:35:13 the only one. Now during hunt season, how often would you be out with uh the Cudden Hunt saboturs on pretty much every weekend?
00:35:28 the other time of year, the other part of the year, what sort of activity were you engaged in again with the Pruden Hunt saboturs? Um, offseason it wasn't so much doing things mostly as a SAB group. Um, so you
00:35:41 things mostly as a SAB group. Um, so you might do a fundraising store with one of or two of the other SABs that you've organized between yourselves. You might all meet up for a particular protest. um or you might be going with one or
00:35:52 um or you might be going with one or other person to something, an event, that kind of thing. But it wasn't as structured off season.
00:36:03 structured off season. What about the social scene? How social was it as well? It was very social and that wasn't because it was we were all having a good jolly. It was more because
00:36:18 jolly. It was more because after a hunt, you really needed to decompress. So, people would tend to go to the pub as a group and just sit and have a chat and bring bring everything back down.
00:36:34 and bring bring everything back down. Um, and then because of that, of course, you get to know people more and you get to like certain people, have more in common with some than others. And then you would organize dinners and, you know, just social outings. Um, but as a group we would generally most people
00:36:48 group we would generally most people would go to the pub after just to try and decompress. Would you describe it as a a close-knit group of people? um not necessarily the entire group
00:37:01 um not necessarily the entire group close-knit because there would be people that would come out every now and then and of course they'd be invited to the pub after and people would look out for
00:37:13 pub after and people would look out for them and have the same respect for them but they might not you know there were people who I wouldn't have socialized with outside of the hunt days and there were people who I'm sure wouldn't have wanted to socialize with me outside of
00:37:24 wanted to socialize with me outside of those days you made your friends within the group. What was the purpose? What was your motivation for being in the Cuden hunt saboturs? Perhaps an obvious question, but if you'd been asked at the time, why
00:37:40 but if you'd been asked at the time, why are you here doing these hunt sabs? What would your answer have been then? To try and stop animals being killed. It's one of the few direct actions that you can take where you can have an immediate impact
00:37:57 immediate impact on an animal's life. And that to me was not something I couldn't do. If I had the ability to stop an animal being killed right in front of me for fun, then I would do that.
00:38:11 that. And how successful were you in the group in achieving that?
00:38:22 in achieving that? It varied. Um, it would vary often based on the meat. So, the location that they were hunting. There were certain meats where when you realized that's where you were going to be that day, you prepared yourself for a really hard day because there were foxes everywhere. And
00:38:36 because there were foxes everywhere. And if they killed three, it was a good day. And there were other days where we frustrated the hunt completely and managed to stop them killing at all.
00:38:50 I I want to move now to when you first met James Thompson. How old were you when you first met James Thompson? I was 17.
00:39:10 Were you still at school? Yes.
00:39:22 studying A levels at that time. Correct. Yes. Studying A levels and living at home with my mother.
00:39:31 Do you have a clear memory of the first time that you met him? I don't. Um, but
00:39:42 I have what I think is my first memory of meeting him. Um, but it was a long time ago. If it wasn't the first time, it was one of the very first times, which was when we would sometimes meet
00:39:57 which was when we would sometimes meet at a location and then travel together as a group in a vehicle to the hunt meet. And I do remember being in the back of a van and having a conversation with him quite early on when I was going
00:40:17 with him quite early on when I was going out um and realizing that, you know, for for want of a better term, he was quite posh. And at the time, you wouldn't believe it now, but at the time I was quite posh. And um I think we kind of went, "Oh, okay." you know, we're g
00:40:36 went, "Oh, okay." you know, we're g we're both going to get a bit of ribbing for being the the middle class sabs as it were, or as he liked to refer to himself, upper middle class.
00:40:55 When you first met him, could you help us with how he introduced himself to you or how someone else introduced you? Um, you wouldn't really you wouldn't really just start you wouldn't walk up and go, "Hi, I'm Wendy." It would seem a little bit strange. So, you'd normally actually start a conversation
00:41:09 start a conversation and just get to know each other a little bit and then names would come up. Um, and I do remember James Blonde coming up very early on. Um, can I ask
00:41:21 can I ask I knew him as that almost from the beginning.
00:41:29 Did he use that nickname himself or is it other people calling him that? How do you rec?
00:41:32 you rec? He never used it himself, but it was it was used in front of him regularly.
00:41:43 Do you know why he had that nickname? Was it just because his first name was James and he had blonde hair? No, he seemed like a very obvious he didn't fit the mold
00:41:56 he didn't fit the mold um at all. And I think that's partly why we became friends because perhaps I didn't fit the mold either. Um, but he seemed suspicious
00:42:07 seemed suspicious um very early on and because his name was James
00:42:10 was James and because he had blonde hair and because he maybe seemed like a spy, it was an easy nickname to lay on him as it were.
00:42:27 to lay on him as it were. But at the time, were there suspicions in the group that he was a spy? Um it was kind of early on I would say yes early on you
00:42:42 early on I would say yes early on you know and you couldn't you couldn't treat everybody who came out as though they were a spy but at the same time you wouldn't
00:42:44 wouldn't you know with open arms go this is my full name and address and date of birth and you know my workplace or place of education. you you'd retain information to yourself until you were really
00:42:57 to yourself until you were really confident of someone. He was somebody that it probably took longer for people to begin being confident with.
00:43:08 to begin being confident with. Is that something that was always at the back of people's minds in the uh in animal rights activism that there may be a spy amongst you? Was that something that was ever discussed or anything that
00:43:24 that was ever discussed or anything that occupied any of your thinking time? Were people concerned? Absolutely. Um, we knew that there were phone taps at the time. um both because
00:43:36 phone taps at the time. um both because you would hear clicking when you picked up the line, but also because if you shared false information, you'd see the end result being that the police would turn up at the false place instead of where you were actually going. So, we were very aware that the phones were
00:43:50 were very aware that the phones were being tapped. But in regards to people coming out, um I do remember an experience where somebody who was actually an undercover journalist came
00:44:02 actually an undercover journalist came out and next week there's a story in the papers. Um so again, it's not so much that you treated everybody like a spy, but you treat everybody
00:44:14 but you treat everybody at arms length initially. But as you've described, they build trust. As you've described, there was some there was something about James Thompson um that aroused some suspicion early on, but of course, nobody knew
00:44:27 but of course, nobody knew who he really was. Correct. And and part of that, I think, was
00:44:32 was just the way he would walk and talk and hold himself was
00:44:42 was he was just always a bit off. But then after a certain amount of time when he starts being close friends and he starts dating,
00:44:55 dating, of course you go, "Well, he's just a bit off. He's just a bit of an oddball and that's just him." I'm not suggesting that he formally introduces himself by uh the name James Straven and then gives his own
00:45:09 Straven and then gives his own biography, but he told you about himself and I just want to ask you some questions about the sort of thing that he told you about his life and and you
00:45:21 he told you about his life and and you refer to this in your statement. So he told you and the group that he had uh children with his ex-wife. Is that right?
00:45:26 right? Correct. And I I believe he told me that it was his ex-wife. I know he's said to other people it was his partner. Um but I'm pretty sure he told me it was his ex-wife.
00:45:39 ex-wife. Did he also say that he still saw her andor the children regularly? Did he talk about that? He saw the children regularly. He certainly gave no indication that he had any ongoing contact with her other than seeing the children.
00:45:54 seeing the children. So, for example, would he often or very rarely sort of disappear off saying to you or the group, well, I've just got to go and see my children. Was that ever used as an excuse for not not being around?
00:46:08 around? Yeah, absolutely. If if it was, you know, or who's who's out next week? Oh, I've got the kids, so I won't be.
00:46:21 And you nor anyone in the group uh ever saw the those children? No. Correct. Okay.
00:46:23 Okay. He also said that he was from a wellto-do Scottish family. Is that right?
00:46:28 right? He did. Yes. And could you just provide us a bit more detail in relation to that? How how did that come about him telling you that?
00:46:42 that come about him telling you that? Was he something that he was proud of or how did that come to the surface? Yeah, he would always, it's hard to describe. I can see his smirk in my face right now. He'd always
00:46:56 smirk in my face right now. He'd always be saying things in a kind of ironic but boastful way, you know? So, he's dropping things in in this self-deprecating, humorous way, but also having a bit of a boast at the same time.
00:47:11 in telling you about himself. Did he identify as a vegetarian as well? I remember him as a vegetarian. Again, I think some people he told him he was a vegan, but I remember him as a vegetarian.
00:47:27 vegetarian. Did he also mention that he was interested in martial arts? He did. Yes.
00:47:34 I'm going to ask you about what he said about what he did for a living. So, how what did he tell you? What did he tell the group about what his job was?
00:47:47 was? So, this was probably the thing he was most open about and shared the most information about because he told everybody pretty much that he was a location's producer or a location's manager and that he traveled a lot
00:47:58 manager and that he traveled a lot finding locations for TV shows and movies and the like. And so it was one of the reasons that he would be away sometimes. Um but he also would
00:48:15 sometimes. Um but he also would regularly tell anecdotes from his job. Um so that was probably one of the things you know if you were sitting at the pub and just chatting he'd be quite happy to share an anecdote about who he'd been working with.
00:48:26 he'd been working with. Now, I don't know whether you saw any of the uh opening of the inquiry uh when in particular uh a document was put up on
00:48:37 particular uh a document was put up on screen from the British Film Institute. I don't know whether you recall that or whether you I'm going to ask in fact if that could please be put on the screen because
00:48:48 because we've already uh seen this before in that opening. But as you can see and this is not a historic document
00:49:00 this is not a historic document but I hope it is clear on your screen you can see at the top is the name
00:49:16 you can see at the top is the name coming home the date 12th of April 1998. Now just pausing there by by that time uh how well had you got to know James Thompson at that time? Uh pretty well. So, I remember him talking about working with Joanna Lumley
00:49:28 talking about working with Joanna Lumley and getting on very well with her. And I remember him telling an anecdote about Peter Ool and how he was a raging alcoholic and so he sabotaged his um trailer on set so that it sunk into
00:49:40 trailer on set so that it sunk into sewage essentially. Um and that was obviously from that shoot where and and those things may very well have happened as well. Um but he was quite vocal in
00:49:52 as well. Um but he was quite vocal in sharing when he worked with someone or if he had a funny story. Um or you know
00:50:08 if he had a funny story. Um or you know he boasted about knowing Kieran Knightly and um told the anecdote I think Ellie mentioned earlier about getting fired from the BBC because he mocked um it was Jillian Tailfor who had been prosecuted for I think prosecuted for
00:50:24 prosecuted for I think prosecuted for performing oral sex on her partner and got caught in a car doing it. And so there was a moment when he was on a shoot with her and she was bent over and he started laughing.
00:50:39 and he started laughing. So in relation to what we can see there now on screen is one example and you can see James Straven's name under the credits. Can you see the third line towards the middle? It's still there today.
00:50:53 It's still there today. And Wendy, I want to ask you about a question that the inquiry will be considering is that at this time James Thompson was an undercover officer and
00:51:09 Thompson was an undercover officer and how he found the time to uh carry out uh uh work uh in the film industry as a location assistant. And so could you help us with this? How much time from
00:51:24 help us with this? How much time from your point of view, from everything that you saw at the time, was he away doing film work, TV work?
00:51:34 Pretty regularly. Um, I would say every couple of months he'd be gone for maybe three weeks. Um, but also bear in mind we, you know, we weren't full-time animal activists. We we were going out
00:51:50 animal activists. We we were going out when the hunt went out. We might meet up during the week, but pretty much the week was his and then he was just with us on the weekends, maybe the odd evening. So, he had all the time in the world to do
00:52:03 had all the time in the world to do whatever he wanted to do, I suppose, and whatever he was getting extra money for.
00:52:17 Wendy, I'd like to um explore with how this friendship between you and James Thompson developed and in particular we can take that document down. Thank you. In particular, I want to move to a time period between
00:52:35 I want to move to a time period between uh mid 2000 uh to the beginning of 2001. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now at that time is it right that mid 2000 that your then partner that
00:52:48 2000 that your then partner that relationship came to an end? Is that right?
00:52:51 right? Yes. Correct. That would have been the end of May.
00:52:59 Did that also coincide with and you describe a particular occasion in your statement where your late mother takes you out for dinner,
00:53:12 late mother takes you out for dinner, tells you that her cancer has returned. And so
00:53:14 And so breaking that news to you was close to the time of your relationship breakdown as well.
00:53:25 as well. It was certainly close, I would say. I think it was early August that she first told me. So, a couple of months after the end of the relationship.
00:53:41 You've described in your statements that your friendship with James Thompson that it intensified after your relationship broke down with your your then partner. Could you just describe
00:53:52 then partner. Could you just describe that and explain what you mean by that? Um,
00:53:53 Um, James was very supportive of me breaking up with my partner. Um, and
00:54:09 and I at the time obviously thought that was just because he was being a supportive friend and he thought it was a bad relationship for me. But he made a lot more effort to see me on my own
00:54:18 on my own after that.
00:54:29 after that. Whereas previously I don't have a lot of memories when I was with my partner who I was with from the time James had met me up until that time. I don't have a lot of memories of James and I seeing each other on our own while I was in a relationship.
00:54:43 while I was in a relationship. But after that relationship ended, we spent time together alone.
00:54:53 Was James Thompson aware that you had a very close bond, a very close
00:55:06 very close bond, a very close relationship with your mother? Yes. He was one of the people that I spoke to after I found out she was terminally ill.
00:55:12 ill. And obviously I was very distressed about that.
00:55:22 You you've described how James Thompson met your mother, correct? He he met her in her home twice from memory.
00:55:33 from memory. Once was when she was
00:55:44 Once was when she was we knew she was terminal, but she was still relatively well. um
00:55:46 um she her health hadn't declined at that point even though we knew it was coming. Um and I remember on that occasion she she said to me after
00:56:05 why why don't you want to go out with him? He seems lovely. You wouldn't want him because he's a nice one. Um and I said I just I just don't see him like that, Mom. And she'd never really
00:56:15 really pressured, not not that she was pressuring me, but she'd never really kind of been vocal about me being with
00:56:31 kind of been vocal about me being with somebody or not being with somebody. Um, other than not wanting me to be with my ex partner. Um, but now, and I said to her, why why are you suddenly why are you suddenly trying to make me date people? And she said, well, because I don't want you to be alone after I'm gone. I don't like the idea of that. I'd really like to see you with someone.
00:56:46 really like to see you with someone. And obviously now I hate the fact that she thought he was a nice guy who I could potentially be with after she was dead.
00:57:03 potentially be with after she was dead. Um but that conversation sticks out very strongly for me. And the second time he met her in her home, she was declined. Um
00:57:08 Um and I was a lot more emotionally fragile at that time.
00:57:19 at that time. Um, and I think he was just taking me out for dinner that time because I wasn't really doing anything activism wise. So the example you gave that he was taking you out for dinner. Was this with the group? What sort of
00:57:30 the group? What sort of I think on that occasion we were going to meet a couple of other people for dinner, but he was coming to pick me up and take me to ensure I was still, you know,
00:57:45 know, seeing people and getting out the house. The other thing that you refer to James Thompson doing at this time is not just taking you out for dinner, but you also say he took you out on hunt protests
00:57:56 say he took you out on hunt protests during the illness of your mother also the way you describe it also to get you out of the house. Correct. So I have a very cl obviously around the time of my mother being
00:58:12 around the time of my mother being severely ill and dying things get very foggy and just certain things come through as really clear memories and you know you don't unfortunately get to choose which those are but one of my
00:58:24 choose which those are but one of my very clear memories was he actually took me out sabbing when she was in a coma in the last days so she wasn't coming back out of the coma and I was pretty much exclusively
00:58:40 coma and I was pretty much exclusively at the hospital during that time and she was in a coma for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, it wasn't I was told when they stopped life support that she would be gone in a couple of days and she lasted 10 days after that. So, it was a very difficult
00:58:59 after that. So, it was a very difficult time. Um, and I remember him saying, "I will come and pick you up. You don't have to talk to anyone else while you're out there. You don't have to talk to me. We'll go out. We'll we'll go sabbing and I'll drop you back and let's just, you
00:59:12 I'll drop you back and let's just, you know, you can't you can't just be at the hospital all the time.
00:59:20 So, he he took you out huntsabbing at a time when you wouldn't ordinarily go huntabbing because you were with your I wasn't Yeah, I wasn't going anywhere. Now the way in which you describe it, he took me out hunt sabbing. But what
00:59:31 took me out hunt sabbing. But what practically what physically did that mean? So what activities did you engage in at at that time when he took you out? So basically just
00:59:44 So basically just where normally we would meet as a group and I would have driven somewhere to meet people or you know what get to a train station whatever it may be. He
00:59:55 train station whatever it may be. He came and picked me up from my home and we met everybody else and then I just did what we would normally do outside which was trying to stay up with the huntsman um
01:00:11 trying to stay up with the huntsman um and who was controlling the hounds and if there was a fox who broke cover trying to prevent a kill and I honestly couldn't tell I couldn't tell you. I
01:00:22 couldn't tell I couldn't tell you. I probably wasn't a very useful SAB that day. Couldn't tell you if uh if they killed, if I kept up, if I was any use, because that's all a blur. I just remember being there.
01:00:34 remember being there. I want to draw a distinction between what you felt about James Thompson's actions at that time compared with
01:00:45 actions at that time compared with looking back on what he did from the perspective of today. at the time and I
01:00:58 perspective of today. at the time and I think you describe him in your statement during um your mother's illness, you describe him as a primary source of support.
01:01:00 support. Okay.
01:01:08 Okay. Yes. He I was incredibly grateful at the time. I felt like he really stepped up. Um he I I know he drove me to hospital on one at least one occasion to visit my mother cuz I was just relying on lifts
01:01:21 mother cuz I was just relying on lifts from whoever would turn up and take me. Um
01:01:22 Um he
01:01:29 he would [snorts] check in a lot. Um he was a very calm, gentle
01:01:38 gentle person to have around. I suppose at that time he had a very calming manner whereas you know I wasn't somebody who wanted to lie on the floor crying all the time. I just
01:01:56 the time. I just I'm not that person. And he was somebody who would be happy to just sit in silence or, you know, go, "Well, let's just go have a beer and then we can leave." And, you know, he seemed to know what I needed. So at the time a a a
01:02:16 what I needed. So at the time a a a strong source of support, but looking back now with the knowledge that you have now of who he was, how do you view exactly that particular period of time and his actions then from the perspective of today? I think he saw an opportunity
01:02:29 I think he saw an opportunity when I was vulnerable and perhaps, you know, I was single, I was vulnerable, I needed someone and he thought this might be a good
01:02:44 and he thought this might be a good opportunity to, you know, start a new relationship to keep my legitimacy going. She's friends with the other people that I'm spying on. this this is a good chance for me. Um,
01:03:00 this this is a good chance for me. Um, the thing that disgusts me the most of all of this are the times like this and the time when he went to Indonesia
01:03:08 Indonesia to CL4 where even if you are doing your job as an undercover officer infiltrating
01:03:20 undercover officer infiltrating a group, which I don't obviously agree with as a concept, if you had any shred of human decency and empathy. There are times when you
01:03:31 and empathy. There are times when you could very easily use your children or your job as a location's producer to say, "I'm so sorry. I can't be there for that." And let somebody who is genuinely close to that person step in and support
01:03:45 close to that person step in and support them. And he instead took those times as an opportunity for himself.
01:03:54 You have described the developing friendship with James Thompson over this period of time.
01:04:02 time. But I want to turn now to to something that you have referred to in your statement. Is it paragraph 6.1? I'm just going to read it to you and I'm just
01:04:13 going to read it to you and I'm just going to ask you about it. You say this, having met me at 17 and positioning himself in my inner circle when I was at my most vulnerable, I think James Thompson was praying upon me as someone
01:04:35 Thompson was praying upon me as someone he perceived he could potentially have a future sexual relationship with, too. Could
01:04:42 Could you help us with why you came to that conclusion that uh he uh potentially perceived you um as a future um sexual uh relationship partner?
01:04:56 um sexual uh relationship partner? Yeah. I mean there were some very specific incidences which I actually spoke to Ellie at the time
01:05:03 time about um
01:05:06 about um well one before I was close to Ellie and I think this one was actually when I was still with my exartner but I I think
01:05:19 still with my exartner but I I think James I'd been speaking to James about things weren't great. Um
01:05:21 Um and we were at an environmental fair and I went for a bit of a wander around with him
01:05:34 him and another um friend who was there and I tried on a top and there was no mirror. It was a It was an affair. So, I'd just kind of hidden behind a a little nook and change tops
01:05:49 behind a a little nook and change tops and came out and said, "Oh, what do you think?" And he giggled and did some eyebrow waggling and went, "Yes, you should definitely get it." And then whispered something to our other friend.
01:06:15 to our other friend. And I I kind of went, "What's going on?" on and then I realized it was a really flimsy top and the top I'd come in to the event wasn't a flimsy top and I hadn't worn a bra and I suddenly felt incredibly exposed um and I just remember that heat rising where you have this moment of
01:06:26 where you have this moment of embarrassment and it wasn't I shouldn't have been embarrassed about it but I was and I remember thinking at the time oh he you know he didn't mean it like that he he wouldn't He wouldn't have done
01:06:38 he he wouldn't He wouldn't have done that on purpose. He probably thought I I knew and was fine with it. And there was that. And that stored obviously in my
01:06:49 that. And that stored obviously in my memory, but didn't raise enough flags at the time. And then sorry, just before we move on, just staying with that, how how old were you then?
01:06:56 then? Probably 19.
01:07:04 I'm sorry, Wendy, I interrupted you because you were going to go on to another example. Yes. Um, so and I can't be clear if this was
01:07:19 just before my mother was dying or just after she died, but we were going to another gathering. And again, he had and I think No,
01:07:31 And again, he had and I think No, actually it would have been when she was alive and he came to the house to pick me up. Now I think of it. Um, I think that
01:07:38 that may have been the first time he met her, but I can't be sure on that. But we we were driving to an event that was further away and we were going just the two of us. And then others were going to be there that we knew, but he had said, "I will come and get you and we'll go together."
01:07:50 together." And
01:07:52 And he knew I would look at property in the future. And so we went past a house with a for sale sign, obviously in a completely different area. I wouldn't have been looking at that house and I
01:08:05 have been looking at that house and I wasn't looking to buy at that point, but he went, "Why don't we stop in and have a look? It'll be fun and it'll give you some ideas of of what you're after." And I said, "Okay." Because they had an open house at the time.
01:08:20 at the time. And the whole way around the house, he pretended we were a couple. And then when we got to the bathroom, it had a an extra-l large shower.
01:08:37 it had a an extra-l large shower. And he went into the shower cubicle and he went, "Oh, yes. This is a perfect size for two." And did the eyebrow waggle
01:08:38 waggle again. And then winked at me.
01:08:45 And I just remember thinking, "Oh, Christ.
01:08:50 Christ. Is he is he trying to flirt? like is he does he think we're moving somewhere that I don't want to move with this? And I was a bit awkward the rest of the
01:09:01 And I was a bit awkward the rest of the day. And then I spoke to Ellie about it. I don't know if it was that day or in the coming days. And I said, I'm really worried. I think James is thinking we're going to start something
01:09:17 thinking we're going to start something and I just am not interested in him like that. He's he's more like a brother and I don't want to I don't want to affect the friendship. So, I don't know if I should address it or just try and give off the vibe very clearly that
01:09:28 off the vibe very clearly that I'm not interested, but I really value him as a friend. And and again, just so that we can see it in the context of time, how old were you when you went round the house as you've just described? I I would have been 20 then. All right.
01:09:41 All right. You've also referred in your statement to the the animal hospital where you worked that James Thompson on a couple of occasions
01:09:53 of occasions went there when you were working there. Correct. So I know he went at least twice I think three times. So I think he attended two working bees, but
01:10:06 think he attended two working bees, but he definitely attended one. And then he definitely attended another occasion where a mutual friend had returned from overseas and he was a very close friend
01:10:18 overseas and he was a very close friend and I hadn't seen him in a long time and James had actually picked him up and brought him straight to the wildlife hospital to see me even though I was at
01:10:30 hospital to see me even though I was at work because I just I wanted to see him. Um and James brought him to my work. so that I could see him. And so when he did attend your place of work, did you know he was going to be attending there? Did he tell you in
01:10:41 attending there? Did he tell you in advance, well, I'm going to be at your work a bit later? Uh the working bee, yes, I knew he was going to be coming. Um when he came with our mutual friend,
01:11:00 our mutual friend, I think he hid a message to say, "I I've got somebody you might want to see. We're going to stop in." And it was a bit of a surprise for me.
01:11:16 So, how close were you at this time? If someone had asked you at the the time that you've just described, who is James Thompson? Would you describe him as a friend or or what was he to you then?
01:11:28 he to you then? He was a very close friend and somebody I
01:11:30 I felt I could rely on and I'm quite an independent person, so there's not many people I rely on.
01:11:49 Wendy, I want to contrast what you have just described with what James Thompson has said about the nature of your relationship in his statement and didn't necessarily get it up on screen, but it is the statement is UCPI 3 treble 53.
01:12:02 is the statement is UCPI 3 treble 53. It's page 115 in his statement. Uh, and the paragraph references are 340 to 341. Uh again, Wendy, what I'll do is I'll let me just read out what he says, and I
01:12:17 let me just read out what he says, and I know you've already uh read it, but I'll read it out and then just ask you some questions about it. So, paragraph 340, he says, "I do remember Wendy. She was Privacy's girlfriend. She was an animal rights activist. I got to know her through
01:12:29 activist. I got to know her through privacy who was a target of mine. I would describe her as a close associate
01:12:43 would describe her as a close associate in that I came to know her well through privacy and her animal rights activities. He goes on in the next paragraph to say she was a close associate within my target group. I wouldn't describe her as a close personal friend. Now firstly
01:12:55 a close personal friend. Now firstly with that phrase close associate when you first saw that in James Thompson's inquiry statement what was your reaction?
01:13:08 reaction? My reaction was, well, that's the second time he's lied under oath to the inquiry
01:13:25 in that earlier paragraph that I read, paragraph 340, where he says he got to know you uh through privacy who was a target of his. So he's referring to the
01:13:40 target of his. So he's referring to the person that uh you broke up with in mid 2000. Is that right? Correct.
01:13:49 Correct. But you have just described earlier that in fact the relationship your friendship deepened after that friendship had finished.
01:13:54 finished. Correct. Yes. I would also note and I I'm sure it will come up later, but at the time that he tried to disrupt in some way the purchase of my house, I
01:14:10 in some way the purchase of my house, I was not with privacy. Um, I'd also note that when he first met me and became friends with me, he didn't know initially that I was in a relationship with privacy because it wasn't public knowledge. as I later
01:14:21 it wasn't public knowledge. as I later realized it wasn't public knowledge so that privacy could also sleep with every other woman he met without them knowing he was in a relationship but at the time I just thought it was cuz you know that
01:14:34 I just thought it was cuz you know that wasn't something that we needed to share with all and sunundry so when James initially befriended me he would have thought I was single
01:14:49 thought I was single and then he would have quickly realized once we became friends that I was in a relationship ship.
01:14:55 Now, I know Wendy, you've read James Thompson's statement and although I've just read to you paragraph 340 and 341,
01:15:07 paragraph 340 and 341, in fact, he repeats another similar sentence about six times in his statement. And I'll just read this the sentence once. The nature of my
01:15:18 sentence once. The nature of my relationship with Wendy remained that of a close associate throughout the time
01:15:32 a close associate throughout the time that I knew her. And I'll just give the references for that. But that sentence is repeated in paragraph 35 342.1 343.3
01:15:34 343.3 344 345 346 347 and again when you read that repeat it
01:15:45 and again when you read that repeat it what what effect did it have on you to read that repetition I thought wow I was a pretty close associate for 21 years
01:16:04 associate for 21 years that's a long time to not be a personal close friend of somebody and to be a close associate by by means of a relationship that in fact ended at the time that I found out he was an undercover officer 18 years previously.
01:16:21 Now we'll come on to in due course the investigation at the time that some of the managers conducted in relation to James Thompson. But what came out of those investigations is when they had a look at uh his calls, who he was
01:16:32 look at uh his calls, who he was calling, the volume of calls, and the number of calls uh to you. A and the explanation that James Thompson gave in his statement was that some of these calls may have been for me leaving a
01:16:46 calls may have been for me leaving a message for Ellie when I could not get hold of her because they shared a house together. I think the majority would be in relation to organizing huntabs and
01:17:00 in relation to organizing huntabs and other protests. So in relation to all of the calls that were made uh to you is that right? Is is there truth in that
01:17:12 that right? Is is there truth in that when James Thompson says that firstly some of the calls may have been him leaving a message for Ellie?
01:17:24 leaving a message for Ellie? Uh firstly no. I would note that from the call logs that I've seen, almost all the calls are registered as 0 minutes 0 seconds. I think they were text messages. We didn't call very often. We would text. So I think most of those are text messages.
01:17:37 text messages. There would never be an occasion where he would call me to leave a message for Ellie because
01:17:50 to leave a message for Ellie because either I was in the room with Ellie or I wasn't. So, what why on earth would he be calling me to say, "Can you tell Ellie I'll see her tonight?" It doesn't really make a lot of sense. She also had a mobile phone.
01:18:08 So, at the time that James Thompson is texting you, calling you, well, Ellie's got her own mobile phone, correct? and so a shared landline where he had the opportunity to deliver a voice message.
01:18:28 voice message. I'm not going to of course go through every single call or message, but I just want to just flag up a couple of pages just to give us a snapshot. It is so your tab B13. It is MPS0719641.
01:18:36 And in particular, please could we look at pages 22 and then 23?
01:19:03 Wendy, can I just ask, is this coming up on your screen clearly or is it difficult to read? Um, I'm not going to Oh, there we go. Yeah. No, that's better. My eyes aren't the best anymore. Well,
01:19:11 Well, I can see that now. Yes. Now, if if we look at that and so we can see this is the the telephone that is making these calls.
01:19:29 making these calls. This is the SDS mobile phone. [snorts] So, at the time this is his is undercover job phone this particular one.
01:19:33 one. And we can see towards the middle can you see the 3rd of August 2001. So that that is the time that we're concerned with and we can see y
01:19:48 concerned with and we can see y 3rd of August there is um a call to you looks though it's 3 seconds and then later there's another call 7 seconds and there's a 10 minute call can you see 151451
01:20:00 151451 yeah that's a very long message for Ellie
01:20:04 Ellie and not going to descend into the detail of them some are short calls some are zero which you've indicated are probably text messages.
01:20:15 text messages. But if you look at this page uh what is uh clear isn't it is that uh your name
01:20:26 uh clear isn't it is that uh your name features quite heavily on these days 3rd 4th fifth 6th 7th of August. Yeah.
01:20:27 Yeah. Could we turn over the page please?
01:20:39 A and again we're now moving into the 7th of August. uh your name uh appears again and again.
01:20:54 and again. Yes. And I believe those are almost exclusively text messages. What sort of text messages about about getting into contact with Ellie? About about what? I honestly don't think he would ever asked me if I could get in contact with Ellie because if I wasn't with her at
01:21:05 Ellie because if I wasn't with her at the time, why was she going to answer me if she wasn't answering him? It It's the most bizarre excuse he could have thought of, to be honest. Um, if we were messaging
01:21:17 honest. Um, if we were messaging regularly or or speaking regularly on a certain day, it was probably because we had plans. Um, I can't obviously tell you what those plans were, but
01:21:33 those plans were, but we weren't kind of either of us the kind of person to just send a message going, "Hope you have a great day, buddy." Um, so if there was lots of back and forth, we would we'd be planning something. it
01:21:45 we would we'd be planning something. it would be a dinner or we'd be catching up with other people or you know whatever it may be. And I'm just going to ask if we could just skip through just a couple of extra pages just to give us a a snapshot of of
01:21:58 pages just to give us a a snapshot of of this. This is August 2001. So we're over the page then. Again, your name uh appears
01:22:06 appears on that page. If we turn over the page again, please more references to you Wendy.
01:22:07 Wendy. We turn over the page please. Again, your name appears on this page a couple of times. Turn over the page, please.
01:22:18 please. The name doesn't appear on this page. Could we go further, please? And then we see Ellie. There is in the middle of that page. Can you see 2nd of September? Yes,
01:22:34 Yes, there is a call to Ellie. Uh because as you say, she too had a mobile phone. Correct.
01:22:37 Correct. You wonder if that document could please be taken off the screen. Thank you.
01:22:54 We have obviously heard evidence from Sara and um earlier from Ellie and I want to move now to getting your uh perspective of James Thompson's relationship uh with each of them. Beginning with Sara,
01:23:05 each of them. Beginning with Sara, as far as you recall, you say in your statement that Sara uh started to come out sabbing with you in about 1998. Is that right?
01:23:16 that right? Yes, correct. You became friends with her.
01:23:27 You became friends with her. Yeah. So from my memory, we started chatting
01:23:28 chatting pretty much as soon as she came out. As I say, there weren't really other women out, so I wanted to encourage the ones
01:23:40 out, so I wanted to encourage the ones who came. Um, and I believe I told her quite soon that I worked um, volunteered at that time at a wildlife hospital
01:23:56 hospital and so she was interested in that and so she then came and started volunteering at the wildlife hospital as well. So we kind of we kind of got close quicker
01:24:12 kind of we kind of got close quicker because we we were had we had two areas that we were doing the same thing in that that wasn't just social. Was Sara in if you can call it you've described that the the Cuden Hunt sabotur is not necessarily a fixed group but but did she mix in that group?
01:24:29 but but did she mix in that group? She did mix in that group. Um there was a certain
01:24:41 because when we were in the field it was very common for us to be physically attacked by the hunt, the boys as we called them, which was essentially the thugs
01:25:00 which was essentially the thugs there for the hunt and occasionally the police. um it would be a closerknit inner core for those people who regularly had to help each other not end up in hospital. Um so while Sara was a very good friend
01:25:13 Um so while Sara was a very good friend and socialized and all of that there was a certain element of these are the people who you know will stand by my side and stop me from having my head caved in. Now, I'm going to ask
01:25:28 my head caved in. Now, I'm going to ask you about how the relationship with Sara uh began, but again, in terms of the group, were there, if I can put it this way, were there lots of single women in the group or could you just describe
01:25:40 the group or could you just describe at that at that particular time? Just so we have a picture, please. So, this is this is something I really wanted to highlight. So, I'm very glad you raised it. And I in no way want to suggest that
01:25:54 suggest that when I felt James was trying to get with me and then instead went with Ellie, it's because Ellie was a second choice or he'd have rather been with me than
01:26:07 or he'd have rather been with me than Sara. He he didn't care who he was with. He wasn't interested in any of us as more than perhaps a momentary enjoy enjoyable moment while he was getting to have sex and get paid for it. when he started with the group,
01:26:23 when he started with the group, there were no single women until Sara came out.
01:26:35 So he couldn't start a relationship with anyone within the group until Sara came out and then he very quickly initiated one. When their relationship was finished and I became single, I believe he tried to initiate one with me. When that didn't work, there were no single
01:26:52 that didn't work, there were no single women in the group again other than me. So, he had to find another option to keep that persona going of dating,
01:27:07 keep that persona going of dating, not a spy. Um, so I think very much Sara got targeted immediately as his single option.
01:27:11 option. And how did that relationship begin? Can can you help us with how the relationship began and h what your role was in relation to that please? So I this is one I do have quite a clear memory of um and I know you know
01:27:26 memory of um and I know you know memories are very pliable things and different people remember things slightly differently but I remember because we were actually at the wildlife hospital when Sarah spoke to me about
01:27:43 hospital when Sarah spoke to me about him. she was doing her I think she did a weekly a weekly shift in the hedgehog ward and I remember she was standing there preparing some food for the hedgehogs and she kind of said so
01:27:54 hedgehogs and she kind of said so um I I I'm thinking about going out with James
01:27:59 James and I said oh really um and she's like what do you think and I said I think he's a great guy and yeah you should go for it like do it. Absolutely. And she was quite
01:28:19 I don't want to say koi. That's not the word I'm looking for, but you could tell she was kind of quietly excited at the idea of going out with him. And I thought, "Oh, this is great. This is I'm really pleased about this."
01:28:33 really pleased about this." Um, so yeah, I I definitely actively encouraged her to go out with him. In your statement and the reference is paragraph 4.2, you say that Sara told you that James had an ex expressed an
01:28:49 you that James had an ex expressed an interest in her. Are you clear sort of who made the first move in terms of expressing interest in the other person? Yes, 100%. She told me he had expressed an interest in her. All right. Now, we've of course um heard from Sara
01:29:10 Now, we've of course um heard from Sara directly about the relationship she had with James Thompson. One of the things that you refer to in your statement, it's paragraph 4.6, is you say that once the relationship had begun that he didn't ask you anything further about
01:29:24 didn't ask you anything further about Sara and at the time you thought that was a bit odd. I'm going to read the sentence. Um, it said, "James didn't ask me questions about Sara during the period he was deployed. He never really spoke about
01:29:42 deployed. He never really spoke about her. In hindsight, I should have thought that odd, but he was a private person." And so,
01:29:43 And so, yes.
01:29:49 yes. What about a lot later after his deployment ends? Did did he ever talk about Sara uh after that in that later period?
01:30:06 that in that later period? Um he didn't, but Sara and I weren't um in touch by that point. So that wasn't unusual. If I had still been in contact with her and bringing her up and he had avoided
01:30:19 and bringing her up and he had avoided it, that would have seemed unusual. In fact, it did seem unusual to me that there were other people who I was in contact with and he would ask about them and we would talk about them. But then when it came to organizing a meetup, he wouldn't
01:30:31 he wouldn't um he would only meet up with me. But Sara, because she and I were no longer in contact, it it didn't seem unusual.
01:30:44 in contact, it it didn't seem unusual. Were you able to listen to any of Sara's evidence to the inquiry recently? Did did you?
01:30:47 did you? Now, one of the things that you will recall is that when James Thompson brings that relationship to the end, you'll remember Sara describing how he hands over a letter and the content of
01:31:05 hands over a letter and the content of that letter. Now, at the time, did you know anything about that at the time? Not Not now. I remember
01:31:11 her being
01:31:24 I don't want to say she was upset when she was talking to me, but you know when somebody's breathless when they're talking because something's obviously impacting them. I remember her talking to me and being quite breathless and saying how
01:31:41 saying how yeah, he'd he'd spoken to her about some things and and they they weren't together, but that I I remember she said to me, we had this awkward conversation with it being James where
01:32:00 he said to him, "But you know, I I feel like,
01:32:02 like, you know, even if we're not together, we're we're soulmates. Do you feel the same way? And he went, "Well, yes." And that's she didn't I don't remember
01:32:20 And that's she didn't I don't remember her giving me any detail about what he told her, but that they had had this conversation. They weren't continuing the relationship, but you know, she felt they were soulmates and he'd said
01:32:31 they were soulmates and he'd said awkwardly when pushed on it that yes, he felt the same.
01:32:39 Finally, in relation to Sara, C, could you just help us with what you saw from your perspective of how she changed when that relationship came to an end at the
01:32:50 that relationship came to an end at the time of the of the letter? Is it was it was it visible, obvious, or or not
01:33:01 was it visible, obvious, or or not particularly from your perspective? From my perspective, she seemed a little bit smaller, if you know what I mean. She just she shrunk a little bit. Um,
01:33:14 Um, probably a little bit less bubbly. Um,
01:33:21 Um, yeah, like she she wouldn't talk about it
01:33:22 it a great deal. I I realize now out of respect for what he claimed had happened to him, but she just seemed a little bit smaller in person.
01:33:40 I want to move on to ask you some questions about Ellie. And of course, we've just heard evidence from Ellie.
01:33:54 we've just heard evidence from Ellie. Is it right that Sara was was a little older than you? Is is that right? But Ellie was about the same. Ellie was about the same age. Ellie and I were very similar in age. Um
01:34:05 very similar in age. Um Sara was older and I I remember supposedly James being a couple of years younger than her.
01:34:16 You met Ellie volunteering at the wildlife hospital? Yes.
01:34:23 Yes. And was this about 1999 about that time.
01:34:35 1999 about that time. Yes, I would have met her in 1999. um we wouldn't have been really close until
01:34:44 until later in that year because when I first met her, I had started working but at the hospital but in the kind of office
01:34:58 the kind of office side of things. Um, and we both did a a course essentially at the wildlife hospital on direct care, triage, things like that so that we could assist with medical stuff. Um, and so I met her proper, I'd
01:35:13 stuff. Um, and so I met her proper, I'd seen her at the hospital, but we hadn't really engaged until we both did that course. And then it was a little while
01:35:30 course. And then it was a little while after that that she started part-time as direct animal care. And my role at a very similar time transitioned to part-time animal care and you became housemates. We became housemates in well so we
01:35:45 We became housemates in well so we became housemates while at the wildlife hospital in what was kind of like a sharehouse situation in that we were living in a house which I
01:35:56 we were living in a house which I believe was owned by a relative of our boss
01:35:58 boss and we were working um
01:36:04 um two nights on which meant you were staying at the wildlife hospital, two
01:36:17 staying at the wildlife hospital, two nights off and two nights on rescue. And so the three of us, myself, Ellie and our boss would rotate through those roles. So two nights out of every six I would be at the wildlife hospital and two nights out of every six I would
01:36:34 and two nights out of every six I would be at home with Ellie and two nights out of every six I would be at home with my boss. So even though we were living together, we weren't at home together all the time. Um
01:36:44 Um Ellie described Sorry.
01:36:48 Sorry. Um Ellie described um the unwanted sexual advances from senior colleague there. And is it right that both of you uh ended up moving into your mother's
01:37:00 uh ended up moving into your mother's house uh together with Ellie's sister? I think
01:37:10 think correct. So, um, we moved in while probate was ongoing because, um, when Ellie
01:37:12 Ellie said she was leaving the wildlife hospital, he told her that she didn't have a place to live. And I hadn't
01:37:25 have a place to live. And I hadn't actually intended. I was still working at the wildlife hospital at the time. I hadn't intended to move into my mother's house because I really didn't want to be there to be honest. It wasn't a great place for me to be mental health-wise,
01:37:36 health-wise, but he literally threw her out on the street. And just before, not long before um Ellie left the wildlife hospital, her sister had moved into the share house
01:37:47 sister had moved into the share house with us as well. So, he essentially was
01:37:58 with us as well. So, he essentially was going to throw both Ellie and her sister out on the street. and they had I mean we got paid well below legal minimum wage and
01:38:02 wage and they would not have been able to find somewhere to live.
01:38:13 somewhere to live. I want to move to and you refer to this at paragraph 7.5. So that's page 11 in your statement where you say halfway down that paragraph as I remember referring to James Thompson. He asked me how old Ellie was and I told him she was
01:38:29 how old Ellie was and I told him she was the same age as me which would have been 21 at the time in early 200 and one. um at at the time you remember that now that he asked how old Ellie was. Why did that stick in your memory after all these years?
01:38:45 your memory after all these years? Um because I mean the whole conversation stuck in my memory because it came out of nowhere. Um but because he then went on to say, "Do you think she'd be up for dating,
01:38:56 dating, you know, I can't remember exactly how he phrased it, but an oldie like me?" Um, so he'd kind of asked it in relation to, well, I'm obvious like recognizing
01:39:11 to, well, I'm obvious like recognizing the fact that he was a fair bit older, would do I think she would be interested.
01:39:16 What did you say at the time, knowing what you did then? I think I said, "Oh, um, I don't know. I can ask her." [laughter]
01:39:28 [laughter] because he I think he'd met her once, never spoke a word to her that I remember and hadn't ever mentioned her again up until that point.
01:39:40 again up until that point. And just continuing in your statement of that paragraph, you say, "I told Ellie that he was a great guy and that I thought they would get along well and was happy that they began dating. In this way, I directly set Ellie up w with James.
01:39:51 James. Yeah.
01:39:56 Yeah. How do you feel now knowing what you do about
01:40:04 about your role, if I can put it in that way, in both Sara and Ellie's relationship with James Thompson? I mean, obviously Sara, I I put in a good word.
01:40:17 I I put in a good word. Um, but with Ellie, not only did I directly set her up with him, she wouldn't have met him any other way, he wouldn't have targeted her if she
01:40:31 he wouldn't have targeted her if she wasn't my friend. And essentially, I I destroyed my friend's trust in men and ability to date. So, I struggle quite hard with that.
01:40:51 May I move to a different topic? And what I want to ask you about is James Thompson.
01:40:55 Thompson. So I am about to move to um a separate topic. I I see the time. I wonder whether this is a convenient moment to have a short uh break. So I'm in your house.
01:41:04 house. Certainly. [clears throat] Um do we need 10 minutes or 15? I'd imagine 10 is sufficient. 10. Right. Uh we have a break for the shorthand writers who um have as you would appreciate a busy time when you're
01:41:17 would appreciate a busy time when you're when they're recording oral evidence. Um uh we'll all have a break of 10 minutes. No problem.
01:53:00 Yes,
01:53:09 Wendy. I'd like to return to the Cud and Hunt Saboturs group and in particular
01:53:20 Hunt Saboturs group and in particular James Thompson's level of participation in that group and his interaction uh with the others in it. As a general question, could I ask how you would describe
01:53:30 describe James Thompson's engagement in animal rights activism? How involved was he at the time?
01:53:40 the time? He was certainly very involved with coming to things. Um
01:53:47 Um he was certainly one of the people who would be likely to be there when we would be regularly attacked. Um interestingly I don't
01:53:59 interestingly I don't when I've tried to think about this I don't remember him actually taking any useful steps to prevent a kill. So, for example, um one of the things that you could do
01:54:12 um one of the things that you could do as a SAB, even if you didn't have a lot of other skills, was if a fox broke, um you'd spray the ground where the fox had passed with citronanella,
01:54:23 passed with citronanella, which would stop the hounds following the scent. I know it was said the other day that we sprayed on the hounds.
01:54:34 day that we sprayed on the hounds. That's actually incorrect. The idea was to spray where the fox had run in order for them to come to a stop on the trail. Um, that was something you could do even if you had no other
01:54:47 could do even if you had no other skills. So, some of the other skills would be uh using mimicking the huntsman's voice calls to call the dogs away, things like that. I don't remember James ever
01:54:58 I don't remember James ever doing anything like that. And that's not to say he never did because obviously my focus wasn't on checking what the other sabs were doing. In moments like that, you were really
01:55:09 moments like that, you were really focused on getting that animal away alive. Um but he certainly didn't carry citroronella spray for that purpose. Um
01:55:20 for that purpose. Um which I I in hindsight was odd. Could you help us with how often violence erupted? So you've described during hunt season, almost every weekend out hunt sabbing, but how often would
01:55:33 out hunt sabbing, but how often would that turn into a violent confrontation? Um, partly it would depend on which hunt we ended up attending, which would
01:55:47 we ended up attending, which would depend on the information that we ended up getting, um,
01:56:02 um, and who the huntsman was. So quite often if we were to attend the burto, their huntsman was particularly violent himself
01:56:09 himself and would regularly have people there to attack us, but would also regularly attack us himself. Um, so
01:56:22 attack us himself. Um, so I guess you you'd kind of have a bit of an idea when you turned up for the day if you were likely to get attacked or not.
01:56:28 not. I would say actually getting attacked was regular, but wherever we could, we would obviously run and not become engaged
01:56:45 obviously run and not become engaged because at the end of the day, if if we became engaged in a physical altercation, either we would get arrested, no matter the fact that we weren't starting something, or we would have to leave the area
01:56:55 area and then there would be nobody to stop them killing. So at all costs we would try to avoid that but certainly there were many many occasions where it was not possible to avoid that.
01:57:12 not possible to avoid that. Can you remember any occasion in particular where James Thompson was involved in the violence? Um yes I remember two very specific occasions. one um
01:57:28 one um which I don't believe I've seen any reports on um but I know I remember he was there
01:57:44 um but I know I remember he was there that day where we we'd come to a gate at the bottom of a field that was open and bear in mind you know sometimes you're going onto private land trespass is a civil offense so we go onto the land see what happens Um the police were at the
01:57:56 what happens Um the police were at the gate at the bottom of the field. It was a sloped field. The police were at the gate and we kind of looked at them and they just didn't react. So we walked
01:58:13 they just didn't react. So we walked through the gate, the open gate, went up the field where the hunt had just gone. At which point the hunt turned around and this was all the on horseback. So the huntsman and the whippers in the field usually didn't have a clue what was going on in regards to anything. They were just paying
01:58:25 to anything. They were just paying people who thought it was a jolly good trot across the countryside. Um they came back down the hill and so we turned around because it was very
01:58:39 turned around because it was very obvious they were coming with malicious intent. We turned around to exit the field and the police shut the gate. And when we tried to climb over the gate, they pushed us back into the field at which point
01:58:50 at which point the men on horses started striking us with their whips. And I remember being
01:59:05 with their whips. And I remember being hit on the head with a brassended whip, which excuse my French, bloody hurts. Um, and I know James was present for that. And that was really that was literally just a whipping on that occasion. The only thing we could do was run up the field and try and escape into the woods.
01:59:16 the woods. Can you you said there were a couple of examples you wanted to mention. What was the other one? Yes.
01:59:21 Yes. The other one which James does bring up because he claims he was injured at the event, but he he brings up part of it um was we were we'd lost the hunt. So sometimes that happened, you know, we
01:59:32 sometimes that happened, you know, we were on foot, they were on horseback. Sometimes we would lose them. Um, and we were just walking through the countryside along a dirt track. So you wouldn't bring a normal car down it. We
01:59:47 wouldn't bring a normal car down it. We weren't near the road. Um, but it there was a dirt track and we heard vehicles and we stopped and looked and there was
02:00:02 and we stopped and looked and there was two open back vehicles hurtling towards us and there were several men in the back of each with we could see well I could see straight away golf clubs and bats. Um,
02:00:15 Um, I think somebody may have had a crowbar, but I can't be entirely sure. But they had come with the purpose of attacking us with weapons.
02:00:27 us with weapons. So, somebody yelled, "Grab branches, stick together, try and defend yourselves." Um, they jumped out the vehicles and
02:00:36 and they
02:00:38 they started laying into us effectively. I don't remember seeing James during the incident because quite early on what
02:00:49 incident because quite early on what happened was I was struck with a golf club
02:00:50 club and I don't know if I was momentarily knocked out but I was on the ground and I was being kicked in the face by
02:01:03 I was being kicked in the face by a man who was also on the ground and our legs were kind of tangled up and I was trying to kick at him and he kicked me in the face and ended up leaving an imprint on my face.
02:01:17 imprint on my face. And then I got up and somebody yelled run
02:01:22 run or retreat. I think it was retreat. Um and everyone just bolted.
02:01:33 Um and everyone just bolted. And um the reason I know James was there for that incident other than that he reports on it um was as would often be the case when there was any kind of violence towards us the police were looking for us and
02:01:54 us the police were looking for us and we'd heard that over the radio. Um and so James went everybody stay here. I'll go and get my
02:02:05 I'll go and get my um car and get us out. And he drove off. Uh he ran off, excuse me. Came back maybe an hour later with his goatee beard shaved off and his hair cut, so he'd had long hair.
02:02:19 cut, so he'd had long hair. And he snuck us all into the back of his car and drove us out the area. Now, you said he'd refer to it in his statement and the reference, we didn't turn it up, but it's paragraph 254
02:02:31 turn it up, but it's paragraph 254 of his statement, page 97. Wendy, I'm just going to read a short extract from it. He says, "I've been referred to the file note at MPS treb157,
02:02:44 file note at MPS treb157, which refers to me sustaining bruising to my jaw, upper, and lower back, and legs during hunt sabotur activity on the 21st of November, 1998. I remember this
02:02:55 21st of November, 1998. I remember this incident because I was attacked during a hunt sab and struck with a golf club." And so, this is the incident that you've just described, correct? Yes. And and so in terms of both those examples that you've given
02:03:13 both those examples that you've given us, it it describes James Thompson as on the receiving end of violence. Honestly,
02:03:19 Honestly, any time I saw him or was involved with him in a physical altercation, he was defending himself the same as we were. I believe the reason for that is that had he started
02:03:35 had he started violence out sabbing it would have stood out like a sore thumb because as I say if there was a fight we could no longer be there to stop animals being killed. So if somebody came out and just started a fight
02:03:48 a fight what the hell are you doing here? All right. And just following on from that, you said, "Well, it was stick out like a sore thumb if he'd started the violence, if he'd instigated it."
02:03:59 if he'd instigated it." Could you help us with at the time how the others in the group in the Cuden Hunt saboturs? How did they treat from your perspective James Thompson? Was was he a trusted friend, a member of the
02:04:12 he a trusted friend, a member of the inner circle, or someone that was on the periphery scene with suspicion? Could you just help us with how others in the group saw him as far as you were aware?
02:04:22 aware? He was definitely a member of the inner circle. So you had, as I said earlier, you had the people who would keep up who were usually the ones who were there when we were attacked
02:04:35 attacked because we were the ones there who could actually disrupt the kill. So they wanted to get us out the way. He was one of those. And then you also had the
02:04:46 of those. And then you also had the people who would get on socially but wouldn't be there at the core of activities such as Sara. James was on both sides of that and so was I and so were maybe four others where
02:04:58 were maybe four others where you were both backtoback fighting for
02:05:11 you were both backtoback fighting for yourselves and each other and you got on socially and would go out outside of sabbing. So he was one of those core people who, you know, was part of both of those things. Wendy, I'm going to move on now to look at some of his specific intelligence reports. I'm not going to refer to all
02:05:25 reports. I'm not going to refer to all of them. Um, but I would like to ask you some questions about some of them. And the first one, so it's at your tab B1. It is MPS treb121.
02:05:39 And I wonder if that could please be shown on the screen. So we can see and
02:05:52 shown on the screen. So we can see and this is a typical of the uh report that I know that you have seen Wendy. So we have the date the information was obtained from source. So here just to orientate ourselves 20th of July 1998. It's then there's a typing date a few days later the 24th of July. Then we
02:06:05 days later the 24th of July. Then we have magenta triangle James Thompson's code name and the title of this one is Hunts Sab Association AGM. So it's the
02:06:18 Hunts Sab Association AGM. So it's the Hunts Sabotur Association annual general meeting. We can see from the first uh paragraph that this was something that took place on the 18th of July 1998
02:06:30 took place on the 18th of July 1998 um at the Red Rose Club in Finsbury Park. Was was that a a membersonly meeting? Was that a public meeting? Could you just help us with h how exclusive this particular event was?
02:06:43 exclusive this particular event was? I mean, you didn't have to register to go.
02:06:45 go. You probably wouldn't know about it if you weren't involved with hunt sabotage. Um,
02:06:55 Um, but sometimes there would be speakers who would come in who weren't involved in hunt sabotage. It wasn't like somebody checked your ID on the door. And we can see and we needn't read um
02:07:13 And we can see and we needn't read um the details of the second paragraph but the discussion about for example their finances for example. Okay. Could I ask you to turn to the next page please? Or we're going to bring up the next page on the screen. And again not going to be asking you
02:07:27 And again not going to be asking you about all the detail of this but it's can you see the last main paragraph? Just going to read um that out for the record and then I'm just going to ask
02:07:39 record and then I'm just going to ask you some questions about it. It says on behalf of the Kent Sabs uh privacy supported by video evidence drew attention to the difficulties they encountered in Kent last year from the Hunt boys uh and the blue meanies reference to the police
02:07:51 reference to the police and asked for assistance from other groups during the coming season. Privacy also claimed that the local conabulary had threatened him with conspiracy charges if he engineered the assistance
02:08:06 charges if he engineered the assistance of London SABS this year. And then this needless to say that during the course of the coming season, both Brixton and Cuddon uh will be dispatching their finest ambassadors to Kent to write the terrible wrongs visited upon their Kent
02:08:23 terrible wrongs visited upon their Kent colleagues. And was this a reference to uh members of the Cudon Hunt saboturs and the Brixton Hunt saboturs uh helping similar groups in Kent? Is is that a reference to that?
02:08:37 reference to that? Um I mean without memory of that specific
02:08:39 specific example,
02:08:41 example, if a group which had a lower number of members in general had been attacked several times, they would ask for support in numbers.
02:08:54 they would ask for support in numbers. So they would ask people to show their support by and sometimes it you know in order to get that support it could be people coming from far a field just so that they had some support. It wasn't
02:09:07 that they had some support. It wasn't just three of them constantly getting beaten up by you know the boys on that hunt because they could because there was nothing they could do about it.
02:09:17 it. No.
02:09:23 No. So physically being there just to you know give strength in numbers essentially and and again if if we look at the date of the report so July 1998 would you
02:09:34 of the report so July 1998 would you have been is it 18 at about this time? Yes.
02:09:36 Yes. Okay. Correct. A and we can see at the bottom of the report it says the following Huntsabs were present at the meeting and then it says Cudden and then
02:09:52 meeting and then it says Cudden and then there's a reference can you see to uh L4 but also uh your name Wendy? Yes.
02:09:53 Yes. Okay.
02:09:59 Okay. Uh in relation to L4, could you help us with how well you knew L4? Very well. He was also a very close friend.
02:10:12 friend. What about his relationship with James Thompson?
02:10:15 Thompson? Um,
02:10:16 Um, how close? Again, same thing. We were, you know, we were part of both the social people who
02:10:27 were part of both the social people who got along as a group and the close-knit people who would have to stand back to back and defend ourselves together. So yes, suffice to say they were very close friends. I would say that
02:10:50 in the same way that as soon as I was single and my mother was terminally ill, James inserted himself more firmly into my life, he he did the same with L4 after his lifealtering um attempted murder.
02:10:57 We will come on to that particular topic. But can just staying with this report, I wonder if we could now turn to the uh page three because and we can see on page three there's a list of the
02:11:16 on page three there's a list of the various um hunts groups and can you see West London and then there's the name Thomas Frampton. Is that is that a name that you knew at the time?
02:11:30 I ne at the time I would say no. I did not know that name.
02:11:37 I did not know that person as that name.
02:11:46 Did you at the time uh have any interaction at all uh with Thomas Frampton?
02:11:59 at all uh with Thomas Frampton? I know now um as we're speaking about that person, I met them a couple of times, but I was not
02:12:10 times, but I was not a close associate. I was not a friend. I did not see them in any kind of form of social capacity. Who do you mean by them? Uh the person you're now I now know as Thomas Frampton. Okay.
02:12:20 Okay. And did did you ever uh see him in the uh company um of any of his partners at all?
02:12:29 all? Um I
02:12:38 Um I I don't know if I saw him in the company of his partners. As I say, I I I recollect meeting him. I did not recollect meeting his partner until I did recently see uh a photograph
02:12:50 until I did recently see uh a photograph and I do believe I would have met her in much the same capacity. I would have met her at a meeting. I don't know her. Well,
02:13:06 Well, the inquiry is looking at uh undercover officer HN26 whose cover name was Christine Green and when uh she began a relationship with Thomas Frampton. Uh but in terms of
02:13:21 Thomas Frampton. Uh but in terms of their relationship uh when it began is it fair to say that that you're unable to assist on that particular topic? Honestly on that topic on those
02:13:32 Honestly on that topic on those individuals I don't have any information I can provide you with.
02:13:43 I can provide you with. Please could we move to another report? So it's at your tab B2. It is MPS 0247867.
02:13:56 This is a report uh dated uh 24th of August 1998. Though again you were 18 at the time that this report was produced. It's we can see from the title inaugural cubbing
02:14:15 can see from the title inaugural cubbing meeting of the old bursto uh hunt and it describes in paragraph one uh the cudon hunt saboturs uh arriving at uh the kennels in relation to a particular hunt.
02:14:23 hunt. But what I want to ask you about is the sentence at the end of the first numbered paragraph amongst the saboturs were L4 privacy Wendy and Privacy from
02:14:41 were L4 privacy Wendy and Privacy from Cudden. Also present were Young Privacy SNU surname unknown and privacy from Liverpool. And then it says L1 and L2. You've already told us that L4 was a
02:14:56 You've already told us that L4 was a good friend of yours. May I ask about L1 and L2, Wendy? You have, I think, been provided with a cipher uh that and I'm not going to ask you to say their real names, but you have been provided with a cipher who Yes. gives you the real names
02:15:12 cipher who Yes. gives you the real names of L1 and L2. So, those two individuals, it's the same question. Did you know them? Were you friends with them? Could you help us with your relationship with L1 and L2 at this time?
02:15:27 L1 and L2 at this time? Yes, I was very good friends with them. Same scenario. They would be present at times where I would be attacked and relying partly on the people around me to have my back and they were also
02:15:40 to have my back and they were also people I enjoyed socializing with. So they were part of a core group of friends as well. What about James Thompson's relationship with them? So it's the same question but from James Thompson's perspective was he did he know them? Was he friends with them or are you able?
02:15:59 them or are you able? Yes, it would be the same scenario where you know I I guess all that applies to myself and L4 other than when it intensified with me when I was single and it intensified with L4 after he was um run down.
02:16:14 he was um run down. you know, James Thompson's friendship with them was um a solid one. We might socialize outside of Sabbing,
02:16:27 We might socialize outside of Sabbing, but you know, I I wouldn't have expected them to,
02:16:32 them to, you know, have one-on- ones with him or anything like that. We'd we'd be socializing as a group. Now he's not referred to in this report but can I
02:16:44 referred to in this report but can I take this opportunity to ask you about someone else who we are calling L3? Yes.
02:16:48 Yes. And in relation to L3, he was L2's brother.
02:16:50 brother. Yes.
02:16:57 Yes. And the same question first about your relationship with if any with L3. Was he a friend? Did you know him? Yes, absolutely. Same scenario. um part of that close-knit group. I will say um
02:17:13 say um L1 and L2 were not and L3 were not present when I joined the Cordon Hunt Sabers and when James
02:17:30 the Cordon Hunt Sabers and when James Thompson joined. Um L1 and L2 came along a little bit later and then L3 a little bit after that. So, you know, I knew James
02:17:36 James better than most people, even those that I was close with. And your relationship with L3 similar to James Thompson's relationship with him? I mean, I I can't answer that question on his behalf, but from my perspective,
02:17:51 on his behalf, but from my perspective, we were part of that close-knit group of friends um who would, you know, out on the hunt, often have to defend ourselves side by side,
02:18:05 side by side, but also in the same social group. So, after the hunt, going for drinks afterwards. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. I would like to ask you about another report, sir. It is at your tab B4. It is MPS treble 1923.
02:18:33 Wendy, you can see the date of this report. 29th of March 1999. So you would have been 19 at the time, correct?
02:18:42 correct? And I'm going to read the entirety of the report and I'm just going to ask you some questions about it. Cud and Sabs privacy sanctuary. The Cudden Hunt saboturs are forging close ties with the Privacy Animal Sanctuary in and the locations given. Wendy, the girlfriend
02:18:54 locations given. Wendy, the girlfriend of Privacy, has just started working at the sanctuary at a as a full-time fundraiser, while Sara is also engaged there as a part-time nurse. In the near future, the entire SAB group will be
02:19:10 future, the entire SAB group will be attending the sanctuary to assist in the construction of a duck pond. Now, my first question is in terms of the accuracy of this report. It's a short report. Is it accurate? Uh, no.
02:19:20 Uh, no. There's several areas where it's inaccurate. Uh, firstly, Sara was a volunteer at the hospital. She was never employed
02:19:36 at the hospital. She was never employed there. Um, at this time, it was probably around the time that Ellie was employed as a part-time, you could call her a nurse. She was providing direct care to the animals. Sara, as she mentioned, was not doing that. I believe that he deliberately
02:19:50 deliberately lied in that report to justify any further contact with Sara. Um, the second thing that's incorrect is there was never a plan for the entire SAB group to attend.
02:20:08 SAB group to attend. Most people probably knew I worked with animals, possibly knew I worked at a hospital. Um, there was certainly never any talk about the entire SAG group attending. I wouldn't have invited the entire SA
02:20:22 wouldn't have invited the entire SA group to attend. It was a handful of individuals who were um you know closer associates and closer friends who came to do that.
02:20:38 friends who came to do that. The accur inaccuracies you've described is one point but I want to ask you about a further point and it's a more general one. What is your reaction now to reading an intelligence report by an
02:20:50 reading an intelligence report by an undercover officer about plans to build a duck pond at an animal sanctuary? I mean, I think it reflects fairly badly on any claims that they're making that they were there to intercept illegal
02:21:05 they were there to intercept illegal activity or threats to the the public or processes because, you know, he was literally in his reports telling them that the activities we were undertaking was building a duck pond.
02:21:18 was building a duck pond. It's not really a threat to public security.
02:21:20 security. I want to also ask you about the tone of the reporting and and in asking you this question please could we turn to MPS treble 2323 so it's your tab B6
02:21:51 this report from August 1999 so you're 19 at the time This report's produced. Yes.
02:21:58 Yes. And it is in relation to Surrey fighting for animals. And we can see it begins at the monthly meeting of Surrey fighting for animals attracted the usual mix of activists and fluffies with a total turnout of about 30. Some of whom had
02:22:13 turnout of about 30. Some of whom had come to listen to the words of wisdom of guest speaker Robin Webb. this distinction between activists and fluffies. Do you understand what is meant by that? And what is your your
02:22:25 meant by that? And what is your your reaction to seeing it in in a report, please?
02:22:30 please? Um, yes, I do understand what is meant by that. Um, it's a derogatory way of referring to people who wouldn't be involved in
02:22:42 people who wouldn't be involved in direct action. So perhaps they might go to a protest or run a stall, but they wouldn't go out hunting, for example. Um, they were fluffy.
02:23:00 The report goes on, "The usual shambolic meeting started with a resume of the financial situation, which revealed total reserves of 70. The main bone of
02:23:20 total reserves of 70. The main bone of contention was the continued donation of £250 a month to the Hillgrove campaign, Privacy's favorite cause. Whilst local causes such as the Privacy Wildlife Hospital promoted by Wendy, remain bereff of financial aid in continuence of the best AR traditions. No decisions were made as to future donations. So the
02:23:40 were made as to future donations. So the reference to the usual shambolic meeting uh and what is described in relation to do donations. What what was your reaction when you first read this report in terms of the tone that's used? I felt it was
02:23:55 I felt it was unsurprisingly derogatory. Um, it was
02:24:03 almost he sounds bitter when he's talking about us. Um,
02:24:07 Um, it's all just theater. Everything he says is just created theater. Um, I don't I can't say I remember
02:24:19 I don't I can't say I remember every word at every meeting I've ever been to, but I do know that um at one of the meetings of Sorry, Fighting for Animals, I did give a talk about the
02:24:32 Animals, I did give a talk about the hospital because people were interested. Obviously, it was a wildlife hospital. We dealt with animals who were regularly killed for sport. Um, and so he's
02:24:43 killed for sport. Um, and so he's obviously taken that as a way to suggest there's division in place because I wanted money. Uh, which I don't recall that being the case at all. I don't remember there being arguments over
02:24:56 remember there being arguments over where a group chose to donate their money to.
02:25:02 money to. There's a particular point in this report. It's the penultimate paragraph where James Thompson refers to something in particular that happens in the meeting. And again, I'll I'll read it. It's privacy snooze, so surname
02:25:16 it. It's privacy snooze, so surname unknown from Crobra revealed that she had obtained the home address of a director of a firm that makes and supplies equipment for use in Vivction. The director lives in the Seven Oaks area and P for privacy wanted to know if
02:25:27 area and P for privacy wanted to know if everyone thought a home visit would be a good idea. She was promptly told to shut up as it was an open meeting and she had now ruined her own good work, much
02:25:43 now ruined her own good work, much wailing and nashing of teeth. Now, the reference to home visits, is that something, to your knowledge, that James Thompson participated in at all?
02:25:56 participated in at all? Um, I think he did, but not certainly not regularly. Not
02:26:04 it's not something that springs to mind when I think about his activities. I think he did attend um perhaps once or twice. Now, I'm not asking you to name names, but was home
02:26:17 asking you to name names, but was home visits a thing that was done by certain members of the Cuden Hunt saboturs? I mean, it wasn't done in the way that that report suggested where we're not talking about this in front of people
02:26:34 talking about this in front of people because something dodgy is planned. Um, a home visit would be something where there was knowledge of where an employee lived and as far as I was concerned in my limited experience
02:26:46 I was concerned in my limited experience with them, it was about going and making sure the neighbors knew where their neighbor worked. Um, it was a form of,
02:26:57 neighbor worked. Um, it was a form of, I suppose, advocacy as much as anything in that you didn't want people to be able to hide what they were doing from their neighbors. And so we would go and well as I say I only also attended I think on one occasion
02:27:10 think on one occasion um for home visits where we just went and yelled that they worked at an animal abusing company
02:27:21 abusing company and and any of the occasions that you yourself saw was there any sort of criminal damage I don't know throwing a a brick at a window anything like that over and above the shout shouting that you've described
02:27:35 you've described No, nothing at all. As I say, the goal, as far as I was aware and as far as I experienced, was to make sure that their neighbors knew that they were torturing animals for a living.
02:27:57 Before we leave this report, may I just read onto the record the last paragraph? Robin Webb then gave his speech, which was excellent, but largely wasted on those present. Webb was then subjected to an hour of the most moronic questioning he may ever have had to
02:28:10 questioning he may ever have had to face, and it is unlikely he will darken the SUA doorstep again. again. May I um get your comment on the sort of tone and the effect that it has on you to read that description of a
02:28:26 on you to read that description of a meeting that you've attended, please? Again, it just feels like everything he's saying is the theatrical effect that he's he's writing something for his colleagues to read and chat about. This isn't reporting on
02:28:43 about. This isn't reporting on criminal activity, proposed criminal activity,
02:28:47 activity, anything of value whatsoever. It's basically just trying to find ways to belittle, feel superior,
02:29:01 feel superior, and make jokes. It there doesn't seem to be any relevance to it. That's what confuses me the most is all the money, time, and effort that's gone into these undercover officers deployments.
02:29:15 undercover officers deployments. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it.
02:29:19 it. Wendy, I just want to ask you about two more reports and then then we'll move on. And the next report is sir at your tab B7. It is MPS treble 303.
02:29:40 This report is dated the 21st of February 2000. Uh, and it is about an individual whose name has been covered by a privacy uh box there. But it is really the
02:29:53 box there. But it is really the penultimate paragraph I want to ask you about because it says in relation to this person he is presently residing
02:30:06 this person he is presently residing with privacy and Wendy at their address in and it says privacy privacy because your address is under those privacy boxes.
02:30:06 boxes. Yes.
02:30:13 Yes. He also spends considerable time at his girlfriend's flat in Ply again. How did you feel when you read um an intelligence report about who was living at your home address? Um
02:30:25 Um not surprised by the time I saw these reports because it had become obvious that they didn't have anything of
02:30:39 that they didn't have anything of quality to report. So what else did he have to talk about other than who was sleeping with who and who was living with who? Um, it it didn't particularly bother me. That side of his reporting didn't bother me because I just felt it
02:30:58 didn't bother me because I just felt it highlighted what utter rubbish the whole thing was. How was he able to report on who was living with who, who was sleeping with who? H how did he Because he was a friend and so friends know who's having a relationship with their friends and who's moved in with their friends,
02:31:10 their friends, what troubles their friends are having in said relationships. They're privy to private information about the lives of the people who trust them.
02:31:26 the lives of the people who trust them. Last report. So it's behind your tab B9. It is MPS treble 3413.
02:31:46 Wendy, you spoke earlier in your evidence about um breaking up with your partner in 2000 and I think this report is related to that.
02:31:54 that. Yes.
02:31:57 Yes. And so if we look at the second paragraph, privacy, the heart and soul of the group has recently split up with
02:32:09 of the group has recently split up with his girlfriend Wendy. She has moved out of their flat in it says privacy, but it's the address. Yes. No.
02:32:15 No. And has returned to the mother's address in privacy. Privacy is distraught at her departure. And the report goes on. Uh
02:32:41 departure. And the report goes on. Uh again, what was your reaction to reading uh a report on the breakdown of uh your relationship uh at the age of 20? Yes, 20. Correct. Um, this one did make me angry and hurt because I I spoke to him quite a bit during the time that my relationship was breaking
02:33:03 time that my relationship was breaking down and and after it had broken down. Um, and he was very supportive of me leaving the relationship. Um, and yet it's just another anecdote for him to put down cuz he doesn't have anything else to talk about.
02:33:27 Thank you. Could we take the report down, please? Wendy, I want to ask you now about something that's been given the name Operation Lime. Yes.
02:33:28 Yes. Uh,
02:33:39 Uh, Operation Lime arose out of an incident that you have already touched upon. It was the 1st of September 2000 when L4 was injured when a Land Rover belonging to the Surrey and Burs hunt ran him over.
02:33:57 over. Yes. Uh, and it was believed that someone that we've given the cipher L5 may have been the driver of that particular vehicle. Okay. Were you there at that particular uh event where he was run over? I wasn't. No.
02:34:16 Did word quickly reach you though that he had been run over? Yes, almost immediately.
02:34:26 Uh would it be fair to say that everyone in the group word spread quickly and everyone in the group uh knew about it very quickly? Um I don't know how quickly
02:34:40 Um I don't know how quickly everyone knew about it. Obviously the priority was him. He was in an extremely
02:34:51 him. He was in an extremely extremely bad way. Um, I can't say how quickly everyone knew about it. I was told about it very quickly. And by very quickly, I mean that day. Um, and I believe James was also told about it
02:35:03 believe James was also told about it that day. I can't say how quickly other people were. Now, I want to distinguish between talking about something and doing something. But first, talking about something,
02:35:17 something, was there talk of reprisals, revenge afterwards? that you witnessed? Absolutely never in my presence and never that I ever heard any inkling about.
02:35:32 And I will say that this was
02:35:35 this was L5 was a gentleman who while this was ongoing and he was in fact being charged with I think it was grievous bodily harm with intent to
02:35:46 grievous bodily harm with intent to kill. Um he was coming out on the hunts and standing opposite us doing this. And for those who just have audio, he was
02:35:57 for those who just have audio, he was motioning turning a steering wheel at us. So this was not a man who felt he had anything to fear from us. In fact, he was threatening us still.
02:36:18 We've also heard about a trial uh collapsing. After that trial, was there any talk about well, we'll take the law
02:36:29 any talk about well, we'll take the law into our own hands. will get revenge or reprisals after that that you
02:36:41 that you the only talk I heard and was part of after that trial collapsed was oh my god what's going to happen with L4 this is going to kill him how do we how do we support him what can we do
02:36:53 we do you have read James Thompson's statement that he's given to the inquiry. I have and in that statement uh he describes a trip to France in January 2001
02:37:21 in January 2001 where he says essentially he intercepts a uh plot to obtain a gun, bullets and appears to be gunpowder in France. um that he manages to uh engineer it so
02:37:35 that he manages to uh engineer it so that those items look as though they've been stolen from his car and the plot that was to seek revenge for what happened to L4 against L5 never happened. So essentially he uh stops a murder plot from uh reaching its uh intended target.
02:37:48 intended target. Now in relation that's what he says. Yes.
02:38:00 that's what he says. Yes. On that particular trip, um we we've heard from Sara that uh she joined
02:38:06 joined James Thompson, but also L3 in France uh sometime into that trip. And so when she came back from France and when James Thompson and L3 returned
02:38:26 and when James Thompson and L3 returned to France, did you have any conversation with either of them, James Thompson, L3 or Sara, about what they got up to in France?
02:38:28 France? Uh, they drank wine. And the only other conversation
02:38:39 I remember with James was because my mother was very ill, about to die at that time. He
02:38:50 very ill, about to die at that time. He said he had to go to France. He wouldn't be able to be there for a few days for me and he was thinking of me. Um, and I remember talking to Sara when she got
02:39:07 remember talking to Sara when she got back and just said, "Oh, it was really nice. They had a really nice time. It was quite relaxing." Was there any discussion or anything that you picked up on the at the time that suggested that something had
02:39:20 that suggested that something had happened in France that wasn't related to drinking wine? Absolutely nothing.
02:39:44 you were there uh not in France but you were there at the time interacting with L1, L2, L3, L4 and James Thompson. Correct.
02:39:49 Correct. And you saw all of them regularly? Yes. At that around about this time at that time I wasn't seeing them as regularly as normal in that I was obviously
02:39:59 obviously engrossed in what was happening to my mother at the very beginning of 2001 but up until that point I had been seeing them. So up to the end of 2000 I had
02:40:12 them. So up to the end of 2000 I had been seeing them just as regularly. Um, and
02:40:15 and I would say I was as close,
02:40:24 as close, if not closer to L4 than James was. And there was certainly never anything discussed or mentioned or even hinted with me. And the same from L1, L2, and L3. Never anything.
02:40:38 L3. Never anything. What's your reaction to to reading this explanation? Um, the second I read it, my jaw hit the floor
02:40:49 floor and I knew straight away it was utter crap.
02:40:54 crap. Um, I remembered straight away that Sara had met them and I knew it was that trip because of all of the things that were happening in my life around that time. Um,
02:41:04 Um, and
02:41:07 and I remember thinking
02:41:15 how ridiculous the entire thing was that I couldn't believe that at the time the rest of the police bought into it because
02:41:25 because putting aside entirely my knowledge personally of the other individuals
02:41:39 personally of the other individuals involved D and my 100% knowledge in my heart that they would never have been part of something like that. It was the dumbest plot I could have conceived. If you are an animal rights activist supposedly involved in such
02:41:53 activist supposedly involved in such extremist activity that you're going to murder someone, why would you drive to France to buy a gun from a stranger to
02:42:07 France to buy a gun from a stranger to drive it back through customs to the UK? There are illegal firearms available in the UK. I'm pretty sure. I haven't purchased one myself, but I'm pretty sure that if that had been something someone wanted to do, they wouldn't have contacted a stranger in France and
02:42:20 contacted a stranger in France and risked customs dealing with strangers and multiple people being involved in a murder plot.
02:42:38 when James Thompson ended his deployment and
02:42:40 and could you first describe how that
02:42:56 could you first describe how that affected your relationship because the inquiry has looked at uh a number of undercover officers uh when their deployment ends but his contact continues
02:42:57 continues uh with you. Could you just help us with the impact of his deployment ending? How you remember it at the time? How significant it was at the time?
02:43:24 significant it was at the time? Obviously, I was really upset for Ellie because she was very upset. From my perspective personally, I remember going out for a leaving dinner with him.
02:43:26 with him. Um, I think I'm not sure who else, but I remember L3 was there.
02:43:37 was there. um and one or two others and we went out for his goodbye dinner
02:43:49 and we went out for his goodbye dinner and I remember it because afterwards L3 and I were talking and we said it's really sad because it feels like that's a big part of the group gone now.
02:43:58 And
02:44:02 it it kind of made us
02:44:13 when when you've been so um close through having to, as I say, literally have each other's backs. It's
02:44:24 literally have each other's backs. It's a real hit when somebody leaves. And we knew he didn't want to leave. you know, he wanted to be close to his kids, but he didn't want to leave us and and the UK and Ellie. And so it it
02:44:38 and the UK and Ellie. And so it it wasn't a happy send off because he wasn't happy and we weren't happy and Ellie wasn't happy.
02:44:53 You say in your um statement that your friendship was maintained with James
02:45:05 friendship was maintained with James Thompson through emails, phone calls, and sometimes meeting up with him uh long after his deployment ended. Yes.
02:45:10 Yes. Now, you have exhibited some of those uh emails. Uh we're not going to go through
02:45:31 emails. Uh we're not going to go through all of them. I'm just going to use a few examples, but they are the tone of them is uh emails ending with lots of love, kisses a plans to meet up at various stages over over the years. Yes. Yes.
02:45:35 Yes. And sometimes you were able to meet up physically with James Thompson, otherwise other times it didn't happen. But you say that on one occasion that he even met your then partner on one one
02:45:47 even met your then partner on one one visit. Could you just help us with that and when that happened? Yeah. So I will just say as well just touching on you said sometimes it happened sometimes it didn't. The only times I went back to the UK that I
02:46:00 times I went back to the UK that I didn't meet up with him was 2016, which was obviously after the inquiry had started.
02:46:09 started. And in 2006 where I came back because a very close friend of both of ours was getting married. So he couldn't meet up with me because obviously he didn't want to go to the wedding. And if he met with me, he
02:46:20 wedding. And if he met with me, he didn't have an excuse to not go to the wedding. This is in hindsight, of course.
02:46:21 course. Um,
02:46:23 Um, but other than that, I met up with him every time I returned to the UK. When I went over with my partner at the time, who was Australian,
02:46:35 who was Australian, uh, we went, as I often did when I met James on these visits, we went to one of the all you can eat vegetarian buffets in London.
02:46:52 in London. Um, and he met him there and I believe he also
02:46:58 he also came to El's house when I went there with my partner. Now, let's have a look at a couple of examples. Sir, it's behind your tab A2. It is UCPI 38209.
02:47:11 It is UCPI 38209. And I'm going to ask please if the page 24 could be put up on screen.
02:47:22 So this is an email from James Thompson to you on the 24th of November 2006. So this is five years uh after his
02:47:38 So this is five years uh after his deployment ended. Uh the subject, hello dear Wendy. Firstly, please note the formality of that first line so there's no question of any yo jim bobs or similar coming back to me. That said,
02:47:49 similar coming back to me. That said, how the hell are you? I obviously caught up on the progress of your privacy skills when I saw Ellie. You sadly
02:48:00 skills when I saw Ellie. You sadly neglected to tell me about all that when we spoke on the phone. Is it officially your career yet? More importantly, I believe you are supposed to make yourselves available for your privacy colleagues to try things out on. And and then this presumably there must be
02:48:11 then this presumably there must be photos, but you've neglected to send them over. Did you ever send uh James Thompson uh photographs of yourself um at any point?
02:48:30 I actually think I might have on that occasion. Just to be clear, these were not sexual photos. Um I think I might have after that email sent him a photo. Um
02:48:44 Um it it's relevant to the redacted section and it was kind of a a bit of a jokey thing. Um that would have been the only time though.
02:48:55 time though. Now if we look bit further down in that uh email uh he says this more relevantly. Have you got L4's address? I thought I'd be able to find him still last time I was over but couldn't
02:49:07 last time I was over but couldn't remember the way. Most embarrassing. So a postcode or something to stick in a satnav uh might uh be helpful. Now, at
02:49:22 satnav uh might uh be helpful. Now, at the time, uh, you uh provided L4's, uh, address in response, didn't you? I did.
02:49:31 I did. How do you feel about that now knowing that he was an undercover officer? It haunts me. I
02:49:44 cannot begin to imagine why he wanted that address. his deployment had ended, yet he was still working for the Metropolitan Police. To me, it
02:49:56 just reaffirms my belief that he was staying in touch with me because I was in part because I remained useful on getting information. I do not accept that that information was not to be passed to the police. Um there is absolutely
02:50:09 Um there is absolutely no reason why he would have required L4's address and in fact I confirmed at the time I remember confirming with L4 whether he had
02:50:22 L4 whether he had gone there and he had not.
02:50:30 I'm going to ask if we could please turn up page 20. And Wendy, I'm I'm not going to go into the detail of of all of these emails because they're just a couple of particular points I want to ask you about. Uh but if you can see page 20
02:50:43 about. Uh but if you can see page 20 towards the top of the page, it's an email to you from James uh Thompson on the 14th of September 2009. And it's
02:50:55 the 14th of September 2009. And it's what he says at the end. So, love James, kiss PS.
02:50:57 kiss PS. Tell Ellie she still owes me an E. The really short one that just kept saying damn didn't count. And where are the photos now? Presumably
02:51:12 photos now? Presumably still owes me an E saying she still owes me an email. Yes.
02:51:21 Yes. What did you understand that James Thompson was referring to when he asks where are the photos? At that point, I didn't know that he was asking for photos of her in lingerie.
02:51:32 asking for photos of her in lingerie. Um, I just thought they must have had a conversation about somewhere we'd been or something that had happened and Ellie had said, "Oh, I'll send you some pics." and then hadn't
02:51:45 and then hadn't listening
02:51:50 listening to the number of times he harassed her for
02:51:56 for sexy photos during her evidence earlier was
02:52:03 was actually repulsive. Um, to me that was sexual harassment by a dirty old man who wanted to get his jollies off [snorts] with looking at photos of a younger woman he had tricked into a sexual
02:52:17 woman he had tricked into a sexual relationship. I found it absolutely repulsive.
02:52:22 What was your reaction on the subject of messages that James Thompson sent to Ellie? What was your reaction when you discovered uh that in 2017 he had asked for the address I
02:52:35 2017 he had asked for the address I think that you were sharing at the time with uh Ellie. What was your reaction to James Thompson asking for that address in 2017?
02:52:49 in 2017? At the time I think I said, "Oh, is he going to send something?" And she said, "I don't know. He just asked for the address." And I didn't really think any more of it because why would I at the time?
02:53:11 Thank you. We can take the um emails off of screen. I want to now turn to a topic that you've already referred to a little bit and it's in relation to
02:53:22 a little bit and it's in relation to going back to a property uh purchase. Um
02:53:30 Um after your mother passed away, um at the time
02:53:32 time when proceedings were going through probate, you identified a property that you wanted to move into. Is that right?
02:53:44 you wanted to move into. Is that right? Correct. So I knew the contents of my mother's will. Um I knew the executive of her will, which
02:53:55 I knew the executive of her will, which was her best friend. Um, and obviously I knew the solicitor and the solicitor said, "Look, it should it's an easy will. It's not contested. It should just take a few weeks. So, if you want to start looking at houses now,
02:54:09 start looking at houses now, um, you should be able to do that." And he said, "Um, technically probate can take up to six months, but that's only for really complicated scenarios, usually where there's multiple
02:54:22 usually where there's multiple challenges. So you should be okay to start looking. And so at the time, how long did this process take? It took six months to the day.
02:54:34 It took six months to the day. And at the time, obviously following your mother's death, but what were you thinking about the process and how were you feeling at the time? I was getting extremely anxious. Um, I had found a property that I
02:54:50 had found a property that I loved, that I walked into, and I felt at home in.
02:54:52 home in. I couldn't afford to keep my mother's property. That wasn't an option. That had to be sold. Um, so I was really, it felt like something positive could
02:55:07 it felt like something positive could happen in regards to I'd found a home I actually wanted to be in that was suitable that was close to everything I needed to be close to. Um,
02:55:23 needed to be close to. Um, and I had made an offer and it was a new a new build from a small building firm. So I the offer was the builders were selling the property. They had accepted my offer on the basis that it was waiting for probate. As probate took
02:55:39 waiting for probate. As probate took longer and longer and we didn't have any answers as to why the builders started saying we can't hold this property for you. We've got multiple other buyers we could be selling this to. The next door neighbors it was a semi- detached
02:55:56 neighbors it was a semi- detached property. neighbors had already bought moved in in this time. I was going to lose the property. So was all this in in about 2001. Correct.
02:56:08 Correct. So that's what happened in 2001 and then all these years later one of the documents that's disclosed to you. So it's at tab 10. It is MPS0719701.
02:56:24 So that happened in 2001 and then this document was disclosed to you and it's described as magenta triangle extraction chronology and timetable. And if we could turn please to page two and on page two it's section C. Wendy recently
02:56:38 page two it's section C. Wendy recently moved into an address in the address is redacted which she has bought following the death of her mother. Attempts to disrupt this purchase having failed. It is impossible to predict how long she
02:56:56 is impossible to predict how long she might remain there here. What was your reaction when you read that for the first time? Um, I read it about another 10 times. Um, it was one of those heartstoppping moments. I believe I WhatsApp messaged
02:57:12 moments. I believe I WhatsApp messaged one of the lawyers and went, "Um, have you seen this?" and
02:57:17 and they were equally shocked.
02:57:30 shocked. Um, and immediately I started thinking back to that time and how odd it was, how long the process had taken for probate and how I kept going to the solicitor and asking what was happening and he said he had no idea. There were no updates. He was chasing
02:57:41 no updates. He was chasing my mother's best friend, who was the executive of the will, who was also an estate agent, had started showing me other properties and trying to persuade me to buy another property.
02:57:55 me to buy another property. So, I'm thinking, was she in in on it somehow? Was my solicitor in on it somehow? Did they contact the probate office and interfere with probate and just tell them to put it at the bottom
02:58:09 just tell them to put it at the bottom of the pile? How how deep did this go? And how high up was it approved? Who who approved this? James Thompson was asked about this and in his statement, we didn't turn it up, but it's paragraph 349,
02:58:24 but it's paragraph 349, he stated, "I have no recollection of what this is and cannot assist the inquiry." So, James Thompson has been referred to what we have on screen and
02:58:38 referred to what we have on screen and his uh explanation in his statement is that he has no recollection uh of it. Yeah. I mean, I think every word out of his mouth is a lie. And as one of his
02:58:50 his mouth is a lie. And as one of his supervisors pointed out, he tells the minimum amount of truth when he has no other choice at all times.
02:59:06 May I turn to your reaction to the way in which James Thompson's managers dealt with him at the time after various aspects of his deployment uh came to
02:59:17 aspects of his deployment uh came to light. Now in your statement it's at page 29 paragraph 13.5 you said this. I think it is important to note that a senior manager in the SDS at the time he was deployed raised
02:59:29 at the time he was deployed raised concerns about his lack of honesty to them. For example, paragraphs 2.4, 2.6, and 5.1 of MPS 071972.
02:59:46 And we needn't call that document up on the screen, but you're referring to a document that was authored by a manager that we're calling HN53. And you have seen from that document
03:00:04 And you have seen from that document that he carried out an investigation, an internal investigation in relation to James Thompson. Some of the phone records were obtained, some we've looked at um a couple of hours ago and questions were asked and
03:00:26 hours ago and questions were asked and he produced this document setting out uh concerns uh about James uh Thompson at the time. And despite that, when this was presented to uh more senior managers, the result was that it was coming to an end anyway. But James
03:00:39 coming to an end anyway. But James Thompson's deployment was halted. His security status was downgraded for two years. Uh he had to reapply for his firearms uh certificate. Uh but as
03:00:54 his firearms uh certificate. Uh but as you know uh he continued uh in the Met police uh until June 2014. So what is your reaction to the fact that uh even uh in 2002
03:01:09 that uh even uh in 2002 when this document that you refer to in your statement was authored when there
03:01:21 your statement was authored when there were uh instances where uh at least HN53 was raising questions about Thompson uh how he was treated, how he was disciplined or the lack of discipline. What was your reaction to that to what the managers did?
03:01:35 the managers did? Um firstly I want to say that any other actions on their part aside because I don't know about any other actions on their part. It was
03:01:45 nice to read HN53's utter disgust at the lack of action taken, his frustration at the situation. equally and even more so HN9 who
03:01:59 and even more so HN9 who seemingly spoke to his wife about it who was disgusted enough to call and leave quite a firm message for Colin Black. It was nice to see that there were some
03:02:11 was nice to see that there were some people there who were trying to do their job.
03:02:13 job. Um having said that unfortunately they were not the people who had any say in
03:02:30 were not the people who had any say in the outcome. I think the fact that with so many questions being raised around James Thompson's actions about his criminal activities which were acknowledged by Colin Black around his clearly inappropriate relationships which were acknowledged by Colin Black
03:02:43 which were acknowledged by Colin Black and around the multiple lies that he had told to the Metropolitan Police at all levels which were a proven act. At that point, they decided that the important thing
03:02:57 thing was not to make the Metropolitan Police look bad.
03:03:01 look bad. And they acknowledge in their internal documents that the risk of taking any other form of action, be it even just more formal discipline against James Thompson,
03:03:12 Thompson, might make them look bad. And that was what they based their decision to take no action upon. as somebody who had their entire life
03:03:23 their entire life uprooted by their actions and not just by James Thompson's actions but by the actions of the Metropolitan Police and his managers
03:03:37 his managers and who knows several other people in the same situation. I'm disgusted by them.
03:03:39 them. What effect has it had on you that in 2002 when these concerns are raised that instead of
03:03:50 instead of more severe action being taken against James Thompson and even you being told
03:04:02 James Thompson and even you being told the truth of what who he was? What's the effect that it's had on your life that for all the years that followed you were believing that he was a real individual?
03:04:13 individual? It's affected memories I have with my mother.
03:04:15 mother. It's affected the life of my best friend. And that's my fault in my head.
03:04:29 my fault in my head. It has removed any last possible remnant I had remaining that I could trust somebody because as I said earlier I am an independent person. I don't rely on
03:04:44 an independent person. I don't rely on many people. And yet it turns out one of the people I did rely on and knew for over two decades was
03:04:51 was someone who didn't even exist and who was paid taxpayers money, my money to spy on the intimate and personal
03:05:02 to spy on the intimate and personal details of my life and then make things up about my friends when they realized that he wasn't supplying any reasonable information. It's
03:05:14 information. It's inconceivable to me the level that some of these actions were approved at. Um, any claims that nobody else knew about the attempt to disrupt my house
03:05:27 about the attempt to disrupt my house purchase is clearly false. As it says, this memo came out of a meeting with Colin Black and other SDS managers. You would think if he'd mentioned disrupting a house purchase and they knew nothing
03:05:38 a house purchase and they knew nothing about it, they'd say, "Sorry, what was that? What what have you done?" Any claims that there wasn't a high level of approval?
03:05:50 level of approval? I I look at the some of the documents for Operation Lime where they were planning
03:05:52 planning how they would disrupt this purchase and they had contingency plans in place that if they didn't get the gun
03:06:03 if they didn't get the gun that they had obviously contacted UK customs and told them to let that vehicle through. At what level is
03:06:14 vehicle through. At what level is approval given for an apparently illegal firearm supposedly intended to be used to murder somebody going to be allowed through customs?
03:06:26 going to be allowed through customs? Who approves that? So to me, this is not just the disgusting, pathetic things that James has done while he's playing spy. It is showing the absolute corruption of the entire system. Not
03:06:39 corruption of the entire system. Not even just the Metropolitan Police, but who ever had knowledge of these actions. It's mindblowing.
03:06:51 It's mindblowing. Wendy, everything that you have set out in your statement is in evidence and everything that you have said today is in evidence. Those are all the questions I have for
03:07:15 Those are all the questions I have for you. But may I ask whether there are any other points that you wish to make to the inquiry? And if you need to take some time to think about that question, please do. But essentially, is there
03:07:26 please do. But essentially, is there anything else that you would wish to tell us?
03:07:28 tell us? Uh, yes.
03:07:30 Uh, yes. [laughter] a couple of things that haven't come up that I do just want to flag. Not that
03:07:42 that I do just want to flag. Not that I'm expecting answers from you at this point, but I want to ensure that they are flagged prior to James Thompson giving evidence. Uh firstly, I believe his
03:07:49 his ridiculous claims of disassociation disorder can be easily disproven by the fact that he was taking actions all the
03:08:08 fact that he was taking actions all the time. For example, by falsely reporting that Sara was dating L1 to keep his cover and his inappropriate relationships well hidden. He knew exactly what he was doing at all times. This wasn't somebody
03:08:21 doing at all times. This wasn't somebody with disassociation disorder at all. And I would love to know from this officer who refused to speak to any psychiatrists or mental health professionals even when he was told it wasn't optional. He had to. At
03:08:38 told it wasn't optional. He had to. At what point and by whom was he diagnosed with disassociation disorder? And how did he cure it? I wonder because apparently he has it no longer. So that's first thing. I'd also like to
03:08:51 that's first thing. I'd also like to raise um the fact that he was given back his firearm and returned to active protection duties two years after all of this was flagged and it was reported
03:09:04 this was flagged and it was reported that he would be under close supervision including in his contact with his weareries
03:09:09 weareries which obviously didn't happen. It was despite the fact that STS undercover officers were not supposed to be taking up protection duties within a 10-year period of their
03:09:26 duties within a 10-year period of their deployment ending, despite the fact that a risk assessment was flagged by HM53 about his firearm being returned. So, not only was no action taken, in fact, action was directly taken to take
03:09:39 fact, action was directly taken to take steps to move forward him being returned his firearm and return to protection duties, including for Tony Blair, as the photo has now emerged, of him,
03:09:52 photo has now emerged, of him, actively protecting him in front of a crowd of what was no doubt left-wing anti-war activists. What would have happened if somebody had recognized him and tried to approach him in that
03:10:03 and tried to approach him in that scenario? Did he have a gun on him? What would he have done? These are questions that I think relate more seriously to
03:10:14 that I think relate more seriously to decisions taken outside the SDS and in his future deployment with the Metropolitan Police. I also
03:10:17 I also would like to flag a document that I have seen and I believe this is in the hearing bundle. So if it's not, please please breach me as necessary. But I'm
03:10:41 please breach me as necessary. But I'm pretty confident I saw it in the hearing bundle. Um, which was in relation to a letter he received in August 1996 before his placement while he was apparently planning on joining the SDS. um which talks about their last consultation is an invitation to group therapy
03:10:58 is an invitation to group therapy and says in the meantime keep taking the tablets.
03:11:00 tablets. Was this a mental health issue that existed in 1996? If so, what was it? And I'd like that to be addressed and
03:11:16 And I'd like that to be addressed and any investigation into that taken. Um, the last thing I would like to say is just that I feel there's abundant evidence to show that at every stage, at
03:11:27 evidence to show that at every stage, at every level, the Metropolitan Police has encouraged, facilitated, and even covered up abuses of human rights.
03:11:35 rights. And in my opinion, they are continuing to do so. And I sincerely hope for those of us who've been impacted so severely that the inquiry holds both the
03:11:50 that the inquiry holds both the undercover officers and all levels of management accountable for these actions.
03:12:03 Wendy, thank you. I'm going to ask uh whether uh there are any uh further uh questions in re-examination or any specific rule 10 questions. Uh I'm told um there's not
03:12:19 I'm grateful. So I'm told there are no rule tens um but sir there is um an issue. I
03:12:21 issue. I there is no issue. Thank you. So you have now reached the end. I have.
03:12:28 I have. Right. Um Miss Koy, do you wish to reexamine? No. Um, I'm told that if I look you in the face directly, I appear to be looking away from you and I must
03:12:39 looking away from you and I must therefore look at the camera. Can I ask? Yes, I can see you very clearly now. Thank you.
03:12:50 Thank you. I I'm delighted to hear it. Um it seems very strange but um may I I hope looking at you thank you for the care and attention that you have given to your evidence and to your
03:13:03 evidence and to your not easy task of giving it orally uh and publicly. I'm very grateful to you. I I am very dependent upon those who participated in the events that I'm looking into um providing their own
03:13:14 looking into um providing their own evidence about it so that I can make a judgment about where the truth lies and about what really happened and I'm very grateful to you for your assistance. Thank you.
03:13:37 That concludes proceedings for today. Uh there is now uh going to be a halfterm break. So, we will uh resume, if I've got my dates right, on the 3rd of November, and I hope that will be at 10:00 with Ellie's re-examination.
03:13:49 All rise