Morning session of Day 26 (Tranche 3, Phase 3) in which Helen Steel — the McLibel campaigner who was deceived into a two-year intimate relationship by undercover Special Branch/SDS officer John Dyn (operating under the cover name "John Barker") — is examined in detail on documentary evidence showing how Bob Lambert and other SDS/Special Branch officers monitored, misrepresented and surveilled her and her family for over a decade to prevent exposure of Dyn and the SDS. The session traces Steel's long investigation to uncover Dyn's true identity, the 1995-1998 New Zealand surveillance operations, the 2002 "Operation Muscat" surveillance triggered by the BBC's "True Spies" documentary, and Dyn's lucrative relocation package, before Steel becomes too distressed to continue and the Chairman adjourns her evidence to be concluded remotely in September.
00:46:53 Good morning everybody. Uh today's proceedings will be livereamed after a 15minute delay. Those with mobile telephones may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the
00:47:06 after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. There [snorts] will be, as I understand it, a fire alarm test at 10:00, but uh that does not, apart from the inevitable interruption that it will
00:47:18 the inevitable interruption that it will cause, we do not have to rise. Yes,
00:47:23 Yes, Miss Still, I'd like to look now at events in summer of 1995 and autumn 95. I understand from your witness statement that in the summer of 1995 there was a
00:47:35 that in the summer of 1995 there was a slight easing of the McLeel proceedings. There was a summer holiday and because of that in part you decided to resume your efforts to find John
00:47:46 to resume your efforts to find John Barker.
00:47:48 Barker. Um, you say also that your urge to resume your investigation was perhaps triggered by notes served on you on the 23rd of August 95 by McDonald's which
00:48:00 23rd of August 95 by McDonald's which mentioned John in the context of meetings of London Greenpeace. Yes. And McDonald's related activity and also the fact that you turned 30.
00:48:12 the fact that you turned 30. Yes.
00:48:15 Yes. Just for clarity, I'd like just to recap the steps you'd taken thus far up until this point, just so we understand where we were.
00:48:22 we were. So October 1990, Dyn had told you that his aunt Dorothy was visiting the UK and that on that visit, she told him that
00:48:33 that on that visit, she told him that his the person he believed to be his real father was not in fact his real father.
00:48:39 father. Yes.
00:48:40 Yes. Late August 1991, he told you he was traveling to Ireland to see if he could trace his father's family, but unsuccessfully. Yes. And I went there to help him with
00:48:51 Yes. And I went there to help him with the search. Indeed. Um, you went to St. Katherine's house to help before that on the 6th of September. Yes. And you found details of Barker's parents marriage certificate.
00:49:04 parents marriage certificate. um the 9th of September 91 he invited you to join him in Ireland even though he wasn't actually there. Then you as you say travel to Ireland from the 15th to the 22nd of September 1991 and you
00:49:17 to the 22nd of September 1991 and you both conducted some searches there. Yes.
00:49:20 Yes. Under the name of Barker. I don't think it was under the name of Barker, but I can't now remember what what the names were. Don't worry. because it was supposed to
00:49:31 Don't worry. because it was supposed to be his biological father who wasn't Barker.
00:49:36 Barker. I understand. Well, I can't remember what the name was.
00:49:41 was. I think there might even have been two or three possibilities, but I can't remember.
00:49:46 remember. Well, if you can't call, don't worry. No. Um, I understand from your evidence thus far that at some point he did tell you that his biological name that his father's biological name was
00:49:59 that his father's biological name was Dyn.
00:50:00 Dyn. That's in a letter that was sent at some point in 1991 because it talks about us. It talks about coming home. So, it must be while we were living at Clyde Circus,
00:50:11 be while we were living at Clyde Circus, right? Okay. Um, but so it would be Oh, hang on. No, not I can't. Yeah, sorry I'm worried getting confused about the sequence, but it that letter was at some point in
00:50:23 it that letter was at some point in 1991, but I haven't been able to pin down
00:50:27 down the the exact date. I understand. Um, in one of your exhibits, we don't need to bring it up, but it's UCPI 39799, you exhibit a note that he left you at
00:50:39 you exhibit a note that he left you at home, so when you were living in Clyde Circus, dated around September October 91. And [clears throat] at the bottom of the first page of that note, he provides
00:50:50 the first page of that note, he provides his
00:50:52 his biological father's address and he says it's Scott Ellis Gardens in NW8. Yes.
00:51:03 You also exhibit a letter from Dyn dated the 13th of January 1992 in which he provided his biological father's
00:51:14 provided his biological father's biological father's name. Christian name is redacted for privacy [snorts] but he provided that name and he provided you with details about his biological father's family which we now know
00:51:25 father's family which we now know reflects the true details of his family. Yes.
00:51:30 Yes. And you further exhibit a letter dated the 17th of January 1992 in which he refers to going to his biological father's home in Scott Ellis Gardens.
00:51:43 father's home in Scott Ellis Gardens. Yes.
00:51:44 Yes. So at this stage you have there's two letters I think because he the first letter he kind of writes that the meeting with his father went relatively okay but he didn't want to
00:51:55 relatively okay but he didn't want to meet again. And then the second letter he said actually that wasn't true and it was disastrous. That's right. But he's given you this information about the address in any event.
00:52:04 event. Yes.
00:52:09 So it follows from this that he has willingly, it would seem, provided you with
00:52:17 with information about his actual life and his actual identity. Yes.
00:52:26 Afterwards, I wondered about whether that was some part of some plan to somehow incorporate me into his life, but I don't I really don't know. None of
00:52:38 but I don't I really don't know. None of it makes any sense. Well, and it contrasts with Lambert makes the claim in his um Chitty paper that we've looked at about
00:52:49 that we've looked at about Dyn's trenchant observations on trade craft remaining as pertinent and ever as ever and to be passed on to new operatives. This evidence would suggest that his
00:53:00 This evidence would suggest that his trade craft is lamentable. Would you agree?
00:53:05 agree? Yes.
00:53:07 Yes. Although whether he passed on that that was why it was disastrous, that was why it was important to have short relationships because this had ended up a real mess. Who knows?
00:53:18 a real mess. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? We know that on the 14th of November 199, sorry, just that's just bearing in mind that it was him that was mentor to Andy Kohl's who wrote the tradecraftraft
00:53:30 Andy Kohl's who wrote the tradecraftraft manual. So it's quite possible that it was Dy's advice not to get into a lengthy relationship because I see
00:53:39 I see create a lot of problems. I see. So it's D's experience that informed that quite possibly aspect of the tradecraftraft manual you quite possibly. We know that on the 14th of November
00:53:51 We know that on the 14th of November 1994 you discovered Barker's John Barker's death certificate.
00:53:58 So this is where you are in August 1995. This is the information you have. [snorts]
00:54:03 [snorts] You say in your witness statement that having decided that you wanted to get to the truth of the matter, you researched Scott Ellis Gardens in NW8 and found the
00:54:14 Scott Ellis Gardens in NW8 and found the address and that you were anxious about going alone. You asked Norman Blair to go with me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:21 Yeah. Um, at the risk of asking an obvious question, why were you anxious about going alone? Uh
00:54:32 well in
00:54:35 in I mean I didn't know what I was going to find. I didn't know whether he might be there, whether [clears throat] well I didn't really
00:54:46 [clears throat] well I didn't really think that he might be there, but I just didn't know what I was going to find. And I
01:17:26 If we could go back to that document, please. It's for reference. There it is. Thank you. Um, paragraph 2.7. There's references there to Tim Green supporting you in
01:17:37 there to Tim Green supporting you in your liel action and being an ALF sympathizer. I understand that he wasn't actually at that stage assisting you. Uh
01:17:47 Uh not by 1995. No. But also this is a report written by Lambert who of course has a
01:17:55 has a obsession with um basically falsely portraying Tim Green as some kind of I don't know whatever but he's falsely portraying him basically.
01:18:06 basically. And we recognize that from Lambert's reporting as an undercover officer who made that allegation. It's a continuation of that. Yeah. Um, page four, please. Paragraph 3.1,
01:18:19 Steel's visit to John Dyn's parents represents a quantum leap. Um, and he says at the end of this, every indication in this case is
01:18:30 every indication in this case is suggestive of a thorough, methodical, and ongoing inquiry. Again, just to reiterate that in fact, you hadn't really had to do any investigation to uncover the details of
01:18:42 investigation to uncover the details of this address and his parents because he had provided them to you in that's correspondence. That's sort of true. Um, but I I I think
01:18:54 That's sort of true. Um, but I I I think also I probably need to say at this point that I hadn't actually remembered all of that at the point when I was doing some of the earlier research and it was only because having found out having found
01:19:07 because having found out having found the death certificate for John Barker. Yeah. and realizing that my partner hadn't been who he said he was, I then went through the letters that he'd sent
01:19:19 went through the letters that he'd sent me kind of searching for clues. So, it did actually involve quite a bit of work. Yeah.
01:19:25 Yeah. Um,
01:19:27 Um, but it's interesting also that the final sentence of this is, it is not known at what stage, if at all, the inquiry may have become hostile. So, it's another indication that actually they knew that
01:19:39 indication that actually they knew that I was searching for him for welfare reasons and also because I wanted to know what on earth had been going on in my life.
01:19:50 Paragraph 3.3, Lambert speculates about how you made the link and he refers to a known and close associate of Steel and
01:20:02 known and close associate of Steel and Blair, one Chris Bailey, who had been employed for the past 12 years in the accounts department of the international section of British Telecom. He may have had the ability to access the Woolston home account in New
01:20:14 the Woolston home account in New Zealand. In the event that he has had such access and the prospect emerges that details of regular incoming outgoing calls to from John Dyn's home telephone in redacted have been
01:20:26 telephone in redacted have been revealed.
01:20:27 revealed. Um,
01:20:29 Um, does this have any basis in reality? No, I had I I had not been in contact with Chris Bailey. Um, I'm not sure I even really saw him anymore since the
01:20:42 even really saw him anymore since the late 80s. Possibly I did. I didn't know he was employed by British Telecom. I didn't ask him to carry out research on my behalf. I as I explained earlier, I did it by phoning directory inquiries in
01:20:53 did it by phoning directory inquiries in Oakland. Um, and you know, it's it's actually shocking because Chris gave evidence in the in Tranch 2 about the harassment that he
01:21:06 Tranch 2 about the harassment that he was then subjected to as a consequence of Lambert making these unfounded allegations and the impact that had on his job. Um,
01:21:17 his job. Um, yeah,
01:21:17 yeah, I think it's another indication of how little concern Lambert and others have for
01:21:27 for the impact of their actions on other people making false allegations on the basis of nothing.
01:21:35 Paragraph 4.2, two, please, which is on page four.
01:21:42 He writes that John Dyn has been greatly upset by the visit of Steel and her accomplice to his parents and is naturally concerned for their safety.
01:21:53 naturally concerned for their safety. Um,
01:21:54 Um, well, he he could have actually told them that I didn't present a threat and he chose not to do that. And we've established you pose no risk to their safety. Is that
01:22:05 to their safety. Is that Yeah,
01:22:05 Yeah, correct.
01:22:06 correct. He could have been honest about why I was searching for him. He could have told his parents that he'd had a relationship with me and that was why I was looking for him. But he chose instead to portray me as some kind of danger to them and leave them worried.
01:22:20 danger to them and leave them worried. Paragraph 4.11, please. Just at the bottom of page four, DSHN21 has been tasked to monitor the resumption of the Mc McDonald's liel
01:22:31 resumption of the Mc McDonald's liel case of the Royal Courts of Justice on Monday the 2nd of October. Yes, I haven't been told who HN421 is, so I'm not in a position to be able
01:22:43 is, so I'm not in a position to be able to comment on whether or not HN21 came and had a conversation with me or anything else um at the Sorry to interrupt. He's a closed
01:22:54 Sorry to interrupt. He's a closed officer from T1. Okay. Well, I still I don't know who he is, so I can't comment on whether or not he came along. Um uh I think it did say somewhere that he he knew me, but um as
01:23:07 somewhere that he he knew me, but um as I say, I don't know who he is, so I can't comment. Um it would be helpful if I did know who he was. You um but the other thing about it is that the
01:23:18 that the case didn't actually resume on Monday the 20 on Monday the 2nd of October. It resumed the week before that. Um so it seems because Lambert um says that
01:23:31 so it seems because Lambert um says that seems to think that the key reason to come along for the resumption of the liel case is because we might make a speech exposing dines. Right.
01:23:42 Right. But they don't actually come on the day it resumes. So they would have missed it anyway.
01:23:46 anyway. Yeah. So we got the date wrong. Yeah.
01:23:48 Yeah. Yeah. And it would have been very easy for him to to get there was get the actual date, the correct date. Well, the Mcll support campaign was regularly putting out bulletins which gave updates on when the case was
01:24:00 gave updates on when the case was sitting.
01:24:02 sitting. So, yes,
01:24:05 So, yes, we can take that down now, please. Unless there's anything else you'd like to say about that document in particular. Um, I can't think of anything at the moment. Oh, actually, what is this? 835.
01:24:16 moment. Oh, actually, what is this? 835. Yes, actually. Um 835. This is Yeah, I I maybe you did read this out, but I just wanted to really stress the
01:24:29 but I just wanted to really stress the um the 1.1. Yeah, it's the first the the the reference to the report concerning supposedly the
01:24:41 the report concerning supposedly the safety, but actually the key thing to note is that it refers to the potential for serious embarrassment to the commissioner. Um, and I think that that's what's driving this is is they
01:24:53 that's what's driving this is is they are desperate to stop me from exposing Dines and the existence of the STS because they know that this is an illegitimate political policing organization that is undermining
01:25:07 organization that is undermining um, movements for change and that would be embarrassing for that to be exposed.
01:25:16 Thank you. Um, if we could take that down please and bring up MPS 0720836.
01:25:24 So, this is another briefing note. This is briefing note two written by Lambert and this is dated the 29th of September.
01:25:35 and this is dated the 29th of September. So, it's written just 2 days after the one we've just looked at.
01:25:42 There are references to your being a leading ALF activist which you were not.
01:25:51 If we look at the final paragraph, please on page one, this is under the heading the current assessment. If they establish that John Barker was in fact an undercover police officer
01:26:03 in fact an undercover police officer throughout the period they knew him, 1987 to 1991, they will seek to use the information to the advantage of the ALF, both in terms of an analysis of undercover police methodology and with a
01:26:14 undercover police methodology and with a view to undermining successful police prosecutions of ALF activists. Yes, I think this is actually a reference to Lambert um himself being
01:26:27 reference to Lambert um himself being concerned that because I knew that he'd planted the device in the Harrow debinums that I could have potentially blown that out into the open had I exposed the existence of dimes and
01:26:39 had I exposed the existence of dimes and the SDS. So, it's actually Lambert looking after himself. Yeah. Um, if we could just zoom out, please go to the next page.
01:26:54 go to the next page. In such an event, they would also give serious consideration to subpoenaing John Dyn and or the commissioner to give evidence of the McDonald's Liel case. Well, I understand that's accurate in so
01:27:05 Well, I understand that's accurate in so far as if you had, as you said, become aware he was an undercover officer, then you would want to. Yes, certainly. And and had we known that Lambert was an undercover officer, given his involvement in writing the
01:27:16 given his involvement in writing the anti McDonald's fact sheet that we were sued over, obviously it would have been relevant to sue both the commissioner and or
01:27:26 and or to subpoena both the commissioner and John Dyn and Bob Lambert in order to give evidence about their role in the anti-M campaign as well as their collusion with the private investigators
01:27:37 collusion with the private investigators that was informing on the group at the time spying on the group on at the time. Indeed. Thank you. We can take that down now, please. If we could bring up next
01:27:50 now, please. If we could bring up next MPS 0749474, page 111, please. Now, this M still is a summary of briefing notes one and two. So, the two briefing notes we've just looked at, but written by DCI Edmonson.
01:28:04 looked at, but written by DCI Edmonson. This is dated the 29th of September 95. So, it's the same date as the briefing note we've just looked at. If we could look at paragraph 3, page 101, please
01:28:21 111 page. Sorry, that's my fault. 111. I've forgotten how to say numbers.
01:28:33 Thank you. Um so SDS briefing note numbers one and two concerning threat to a former officer
01:28:43 officer and Edmonson has recorded what is clear from this is that DI Lambit and DC privacy redaction. Now I know you know the name of this officer but his name is
01:28:54 the name of this officer but his name is redacted for privacy. So I just want I do but I I think it's important at this stage to say I'm not sure why he's got privacy. He's a public servant and he was actually
01:29:05 a public servant and he was actually made a witness statement in our case when we sued the the Metropolitan Police in 1999.
01:29:12 in 1999. Um, but he knew that I had been in a relationship with John Dyn. What's your basis for saying that? Because he saw he saw us together on the picket outside McDonald's and he
01:29:25 on the picket outside McDonald's and he saw us on other occasions and there was one specific occasion when it was an antipolax demonstration in Brixton. Oh, sorry. No, actually there's there's two two occasions.
01:29:36 two occasions. There was a an anti antipolex picket outside New Scotland Yard that Dyn himself had initiated but didn't go to presumably because he was worried about
01:29:47 presumably because he was worried about being recognized by colleagues coming out of the building. But on that picket, the officer named here
01:29:54 here Yeah.
01:29:55 Yeah. um actually approached me and said, "Where's your poisonous little mate?" And it was clear that he was talking about John Barker. Yeah.
01:30:03 Yeah. Um and I talked to Dyn about that later that day when I saw him. Um there was also another occasion on an antipolax demonstration in Brixton where Dyn and I
01:30:16 demonstration in Brixton where Dyn and I were walking down a back street. Um which I now looking back on it must have been something Dines arranged deliberately. Um because I have no idea
01:30:28 deliberately. Um because I have no idea why we were walking down this back street, but when we were walking down this back street, we bumped into this officer.
01:30:33 officer. Yeah.
01:30:33 Yeah. And another officer and they started talking to us and invited us all to go to the pub. Um and at the time I thought
01:30:44 to the pub. Um and at the time I thought it was very strange. Um I wouldn't have felt comfortable even thinking that John Barker was a genuine activist. I wouldn't have felt comfortable going to the pub with um two men who I knew were
01:30:57 the pub with um two men who I knew were from special branch. But now that I know who John Barker really was, y
01:31:04 y it's even more um alarming. But my point is that the officer that was working with Di Lambert on this knew full well that we had been in a relationship together. And yet that's concealed from
01:31:16 together. And yet that's concealed from here. And I believe that Lambert knew as well because he he he basically set me up for this relationship. And that's referred to in one of the Chitty documents. He said he he also says he thinks he set me up for the
01:31:29 thinks he set me up for the in
01:31:31 in interview. Yes. His interview with her and he does say that. Um so in light of what you've said this paragraph what is clear from this is that DI Lambert and DC this officer who has been working with him have sought
01:31:42 has been working with him have sought through their considered and methodical approach to provide a sound assessment of the potentially serious nature of the problem. But your point is that but they haven't
01:31:53 haven't opened up the fact that there was a very close sexual relationship involved. Yes.
01:31:58 Yes. So any
01:32:00 So any the assessment providing is is is on a false basis. It's falsely presenting what the issue is. Um paragraph five please of this
01:32:11 Um paragraph five please of this document. They're not numbered actually. So
01:32:16 So at the end of that's at the end of paragraph two mention is made of the potential for the activists in the current Mcllyel case to subpoena either John Dyn or indeed the commissioner that is not indicated lightly. These people
01:32:28 is not indicated lightly. These people have been engaged over the last 18 months in what to them is a struggle against the might of a multinational company and the establishment. The production in court of an undercover police officer closely associated with
01:32:40 police officer closely associated with their case would be an enormous coup. Well, it's true, isn't it? Um I think yes, had it come out into the open at the time, it would have been quite
01:32:52 the time, it would have been quite shocking. I remember that um when we went to the court of appeal after the McLeel case and reference was made to
01:33:03 made to um the McDonald spies staying remaining in the group after the Ritz were served. Yeah. And the court of appeal indicated that it was concerned by that because of the potential implications for
01:33:15 the potential implications for interference with justice and the right to, you know, privacy around your how you're fighting a case. Had they known that there were two undercover police
01:33:26 that there were two undercover police officers involved in the whole campaign and reporting back on and one of them was living with me and getting like I I think the court would have been
01:33:37 like I I think the court would have been really
01:33:40 really Yeah,
01:33:40 Yeah, I own
01:33:41 I own Well, I'm rightly so indeed. Completely shocked. Yeah.
01:33:45 Yeah. Um
01:33:46 Um and
01:33:48 and you know that cover up of what actually happened went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights because the uh the Metropolitan Police
01:34:00 uh the Metropolitan Police covered this up. Um
01:34:05 sorry. No, don't worry.
01:34:15 Take your time. I mean, you made the point in your witness statement that the fact that Edmonson is emphasizing this shows that he shares Lambert's disdain for the legal process. Yes.
01:34:25 Yes. Is that
01:34:26 Is that Yes.
01:34:28 Yes. I mean, I I do I I actually do. It still kind of blows my mind just how much intrusion there was into my life while I
01:34:39 intrusion there was into my life while I was fighting the Mcll case. And for what purpose other than for the Metropolitan Police to assist a multinational corporation in
01:34:51 a multinational corporation in protecting its reputation? What what lawful purpose was there for that? There wasn't one. It was collusion between the Metropolitan Police and big
01:35:03 between the Metropolitan Police and big business.
01:35:07 If we could go to page 112 of this same document, please. So, this is a minute from Superintendent Eric Docker, dated the 16th of November,
01:35:20 Docker, dated the 16th of November, 1995. Now we recall that Eric Docker managed Lambert in the SDS during
01:35:31 during the whole period in which Devon took place and that very controversial period of
01:35:36 of right
01:35:36 right Lambert's deployment right
01:35:41 right paragraph one he
01:35:47 notes since returning from annual leave I have discussed this saga at length which with DCI Edmonson and DI lamb but action taken so far is comprehensive and excellent. I support fully all measures
01:35:59 excellent. I support fully all measures undertaken. The situation is reviewed daily [clears throat] and adjustments made to strategy accordingly. If we can look at the next paragraph, please.
01:36:11 please. I'm also aware of previous discussions between yourself and the DAC. But nevertheless, I wish to reiterate one aspect.
01:36:19 aspect. The potential for embarrassment to the commissioner and compromise of our operation remains significant in this case and is incumbent upon the SDS management to take all possible steps to limit any damage and frustrate those
01:36:32 limit any damage and frustrate those intent on exposing us. In any police inquiry, one of the first taskings would be to interview the principal witnesses and I therefore consider it essential that John Dyn and Mrs. Woolstonhome be
01:36:44 that John Dyn and Mrs. Woolstonhome be interviewed as soon as possible. D. Lambert would do this as he is the most appropriate officer to undertake the task.
01:36:55 task. And he then goes on, if we could just zoom out again, please, to recommend that Lambert is given authority to travel to New Zealand to meet with Dyn.
01:37:06 travel to New Zealand to meet with Dyn. Yes. Um,
01:37:09 Yes. Um, I presume Lambert wants to go there so he can get together with Dines to get their stories straight. But indeed it supports your theory that they are prepared to go to great lengths in order
01:37:22 prepared to go to great lengths in order to prevent exposure. Yes, absolutely. Um page 113 please.
01:37:31 So this is detective superintendent HN 337. So the operational command units isn't there between this there's a there's then the is it on the 24th of o
01:37:44 there's then the is it on the 24th of o of October that there's then the false report saying that I've traveled to New Zealand.
01:37:50 Zealand. Yes. Well we [clears throat] can look at that in due course but that's true that there is we know that Lambert reports that you have traveled to New Zealand in
01:38:01 that you have traveled to New Zealand in 95 which we understand to be false. I I believe that it was on the 24th of October that he reported right that I had traveled to New Zealand and I believe he made that false claim.
01:38:12 and I believe he made that false claim. Yeah.
01:38:13 Yeah. Deliberately so that he could get a free trip to New Zealand in order to collude with dyn
01:38:20 with dyn I understand out of the news. We can bring we can do you want me to bring up that up? I can show you because you're right. So MPS0749115
01:38:29 this is briefing note three from Lambert and your Right. You're correct that the minute from docker is
01:38:45 dated the 16th of November. So in between the Edmonson minute and the docker minute we have this Tuesday the 24th of October. Recent intelligence
01:38:56 24th of October. Recent intelligence received from secret and reliable sources states as follows. Helen Steel has traveled to New Zealand. So this is what you're talking about. Yes. And this is completely false. This is in the
01:59:18 from 1989. Yes, that's right. I found a death notice for um what appeared to be
01:59:29 This is where it gets so complicated trying to explain the relationships. the woman who I thought was Dyn's aunt. Yeah. So, Dorothy. Dorothy.
01:59:38 Dorothy. The death notice for her husband. Yeah.
01:59:41 Yeah. Um and it said it it it referred to dearly loved husband of Dorothy and love father and father-in-law of
01:59:54 father and father-in-law of um and then two names and then Debbie and John brackets London. Yeah. And
02:00:01 Yeah. And um
02:00:03 um I I thought, well, that's a coincidence, isn't it? Because the only significant ex that Dyn had talked about to me while we were in a relationship was called Debbie.
02:00:17 relationship was called Debbie. But I still I mean, now it seems dafted that I didn't clock it straight away. But although I was suspicious, I just thought it could be a coincidence. I need to investigate it more. I need to
02:00:30 need to investigate it more. I need to work out whether or not there is some relationship ship between these coincidences or whether it is just a coincidence. And you exhibit that death notice for
02:00:42 And you exhibit that death notice for the transcript. It's at UCPI 39912. Yes.
02:00:47 Yes. Um you also say in your witness statement that you found addresses [snorts] through phone directories and electoral roles. Yes. And then sorry of of um the woman who Dyn had said was
02:01:00 of of um the woman who Dyn had said was his aunt.
02:01:01 his aunt. Yeah. Aunt Dorothy and relations with hers on the 7th of January you 1998. This is you went to visit Aunt Dorothy. Is that
02:01:12 you went to visit Aunt Dorothy. Is that right?
02:01:13 right? Yes.
02:01:14 Yes. Can you tell us what happened on that visit please? Uh, I knocked on the door and initially she appeared kind of friendly and welcoming,
02:01:26 appeared kind of friendly and welcoming, but when I said that I was looking for John Barker. Yeah.
02:01:32 Yeah. Um, she kind of put her arm across the doorway and then kind of her don't know her body language changed and she sort of kind of shut down. And I I talked to
02:01:44 of kind of shut down. And I I talked to her about having spoken to her on the phone before. I told her that I was still looking for him. I you know I wanted to know what had happened to him. And um
02:01:54 And um she she just seemed very kind of evasive.
02:01:58 evasive. Um and I ended up asking her I told her that I'd been looking through the death notices in the local paper for the deaths of his parents.
02:02:10 deaths of his parents. um
02:02:12 um and that I couldn't find them. And so I asked her what his mother's name was, thinking, well, she'll know that because
02:02:23 thinking, well, she'll know that because she's either a close friend of his mother or his the sister of his mother, so she would know his name. And she she just kind of said, "Oh, I
02:02:34 And she she just kind of said, "Oh, I don't remember now." And I just sort of thought, "Oh, that's ludicrous. You must remember her name." But what could I do? Yeah.
02:02:41 Yeah. So that that was that really that was all that happened. Um
02:02:47 Um that visit prompted a letter from Dyn to Lambert. We'll look at that briefly. This is MPS0749112.
02:02:58 So this was dated the following day. This is the 8th of January 1998. Um
02:03:05 Um the tone of this letter is very guarded and quite oblique. Um but he writes, "I hope this finds you in optimistic spirits."
02:03:18 in optimistic spirits." He talks about his attractive lifestyle. Paragraph three, "Life is coming together, or so it was, and thus the reason for this letter, not unusually, I find myself seeking you out in times of
02:03:30 find myself seeking you out in times of difficulty." the clear
02:03:34 the clear reference to the ongoing contact between them when they're trying to cover their tracks when he's trying to cover his tracks then that he's helped him previously and been helpful it would seem given that
02:03:46 been helpful it would seem given that he's coming to him again anyway Helen still is in New Zealand and has been making inquiries at this point so far as I know her efforts have been competently dealt with by his mother-in-law and just to say
02:03:59 by his mother-in-law and just to say obviously at this point I didn't know that the woman who I thought was his aunt was his was in fact his mother-in-law. So I had no idea. Yeah.
02:04:08 Yeah. What upset I must have caused by going round to her house and telling her that I was looking for Yeah.
02:04:15 Yeah. the man who I loved who who had gone missing.
02:04:18 missing. Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously for her her daughter was, if you understand correctly, married to John Dyn at this point.
02:04:24 point. Yes. And it would have been upsetting for her.
02:04:26 for her. Yeah.
02:04:28 Yeah. Um, I'm taking all measures open to me to cover our public tracks. Will endeavor to do all possible to preserve the status quo. I gather she will be here for two to three months and so her efforts will be
02:04:40 three months and so her efforts will be comprehensive. Is that something you told Aunt Dorothy? I would have I'm sure I would have said I'll be here for two or three months. I don't think I would have said my efforts will be comprehensive.
02:04:51 will be comprehensive. No, I meant the period that you were going to be in New Zealand. Yeah. Um, and then he writes, [snorts] "Nomically, I am able to add nothing to the current situation save to reiterate what we have discussed at length over
02:05:04 what we have discussed at length over recent years." Is I think that's a reference. I I I I believe that Lambert was well aware we'd been in a relationship that they had both talked about it. I'm sure that
02:05:19 both talked about it. I'm sure that Well, Dyn knew about Lambert's relationship with Belinda if nothing else. And I'm yeah sure that they would have been freely discussing all of that. Um penultimate paragraph he writes, "I
02:05:32 Um penultimate paragraph he writes, "I ought to formally ask that you bring the situation to the attention of the appropriate senior staff. I am even further in your personal debt and thank you again for your efforts on my behalf."
02:05:44 behalf." Um if we could take that down. Can I just say actually just before we go off this that I think that one of the things that is most striking about this letter is that he shows absolutely no
02:05:55 letter is that he shows absolutely no concern for me or the fact that
02:06:00 why I'm searching. They they knew why I was searching. They knew I was searching because I was worried about my missing partner. And he shows absolutely no concern for me. It's all about how he's
02:06:11 concern for me. It's all about how he's moved on to an attractive lifestyle and I'm being a pain. Yeah. Um,
02:06:19 Um, before we I was going to move on to another document. Would you like to take a break now? Um,
02:06:25 Um, is it 90 is it I I could do with a break, but if it's going into 90 minutes now. Okay. Yeah. Then let's have a break. Thank you.
02:06:36 Thank you. 15 minutes. Yeah. 15 minutes.
02:35:02 Before
02:35:10 the break, we were looking at the letter that John Dyn wrote to Lambert on the 8th of January 98 asking for his help. We can see that Lambert Julie obliges
02:35:23 We can see that Lambert Julie obliges and that he goes to DCI HN58 and
02:35:30 and HN58. No, we we can take that down now, please. Thank you. Um, MPS0749474,
02:35:40 page 127. There's a branch note authored by HN58 dated the 15th of January 98. And
02:35:52 we can see this is Re John Dyn. On the 15th of January, I contacted a sergeant working in Oakland concerning the plight of John.
02:36:02 of John. He indicated that subject Helen Steel had arrived in Christ Church on the 21st of December 97 and departed on the 2nd of the 1st. subsequently found to be incorrect.
02:36:13 incorrect. The sergeant said he'd spoken at length to John, advised him to continue to prevent personal records being available to the public. First task would be to try to ascertain
02:36:24 First task would be to try to ascertain the current whereabouts of steel. So that's this this New Zealand police officer's first task. So we can see now that HN58 has taken it upon himself to contact New Zealand police
02:36:36 contact New Zealand police and tasked. Yes. I mean, they already know that I traveled to Christ Church, although they've completely the person that that is referred to under the privacy
02:36:48 that is referred to under the privacy reduction was nothing to do with me. I have no idea what that was about, but um yeah,
02:36:54 yeah, uh they are I had gone to Christ Church, so they were already um
02:37:02 um putting me under surveillance of some sort. [sighs] Yeah, indeed. Um but again being tasked to put you under additional surveillance to try and establish your whereabouts.
02:37:15 to try and establish your whereabouts. Yes.
02:37:16 Yes. Um if we could bring up then please MPS0247452.
02:37:25 So this is dated 11 days later. It's the 26th of January 1998. This is from Bob Lambert to uh privacy redacted New
02:37:36 Lambert to uh privacy redacted New Zealand police officer ref John Dyn. Thank you for all the assistance you've provided to John in recent days. I know he's found your advice helpful.
02:37:48 advice helpful. As I've outlined in the telephone, the circumstances surrounding this case as such as to prompt a genuine concern for his personal safety. We've addressed that
02:37:56 that was a lie. Yes. Yeah.
02:37:59 Yeah. The persistent efforts of an extremist animal have a right to trace him may well have a purpose that does not pose a threat to his security. But it is clearly prudent at this stage to consider worst case scenarios.
02:38:10 consider worst case scenarios. As I've said elsewhere, if they told the truth about the reason why I was searching, the New Zealand police wouldn't have assisted them. I don't suppose.
02:38:18 suppose. Yes. So there's no evidence that New Zealand police were given accurate
02:38:22 accurate an accurate picture of what actually had passed between you and John Dyn. The fact that the activist has been in New Zealand since the 17th of November suggests that she may not be solely preoccupied with an investigation into
02:38:33 preoccupied with an investigation into the whereabouts of John. So some acknowledgement there at least that you're not solely motivated. You haven't traveled halfway across the world just to track down John Dyn.
02:38:44 just to track down John Dyn. Some activists in London believe she's in New Zealand having a holiday. um paragraph four of this, which is another indication that they're also keeping tabs on my
02:38:58 also keeping tabs on my on me in London as well while I'm not there.
02:39:01 there. Um
02:39:03 Um the paragraph that starts, attached to this letter are details of Steel's background. You will notice she's cultivated a respectable image since becoming embroiled in the longunning
02:39:14 becoming embroiled in the longunning McDonald's liel case, and there are no recent criminal cases recorded against her. Now, this attachment we understand to be
02:39:24 to be at, if we could bring up, please, if we could take that down and bring up MPS 0749474,
02:39:32 page 123. And again, we're
02:39:41 informed and we understand that the attachment was co-authored by Lambert and the police officer that we referred to whose name is subject to the privacy redaction, but
02:39:52 is subject to the privacy redaction, but to whom you referred earlier who knew that I'd had a relationship. Yeah.
02:39:56 Yeah. John Dyn or he'd deceived me into a relationship. Yeah. Um, and you referred to, again, I'm don't propose to bring it up, but when you said that John Dyn went
02:40:07 up, but when you said that John Dyn went to a protest outside Scotland Yard and no, he didn't. He organized a protest outside Scotland Yard and you were approached by this officer and said,
02:40:18 approached by this officer and said, "Where's your poisonous little mate?" And that was the 19th of October, 1990. You exhibit John Dyn's diary, which was one of the possessions that he left behind in the caravan
02:40:30 behind in the caravan at the end of 1991. And
02:40:33 And for the transcript, the reference is UCPI 39849 on page 15, there's a note in John Dyn's diary about that protest.
02:40:44 diary about that protest. Right. Yes, that's right. Um, if we could look. So, here's the
02:40:53 profile. Um,
02:40:57 Um, there's a photograph of you. Um, it says, "For many years, this woman was deeply involved with the anarchist group London Greenpeace. This group has been in the forefront of
02:41:08 This group has been in the forefront of the protests against the meat industry and animal experimentation." Yeah. And then it's outrageous. I mean, well, it's it's [sighs] this is a deliberate mischaracterization
02:41:20 this is a deliberate mischaracterization of both the activities of the group and um falsely asserting that we've never sherked from using violence and other illegal methods to persuade victims to
02:41:31 illegal methods to persuade victims to alter their way is just a flatout lie. Even when Lambert was heavily involved in the group and trying to stoke up all manner of stuff, um there was no
02:41:43 manner of stuff, um there was no evidence produced in T2 to support any of what is said there. Yeah.
02:41:49 Yeah. Sorry, no evidence produced in tranch 2, just for the people who don't [laughter] know what T2 is. um
02:41:57 um still most recently gained notoriety albeit being regarded as fame by her comrades as being the co-fendant in the longest running liel trial. And then you were described as an audacious,
02:42:08 were described as an audacious, enterprising and resourceful individual who has in the past shown immense ingenuity when researching areas of interest to her and her comrades. Um, if
02:42:19 interest to her and her comrades. Um, if we could go over the page, please.
02:42:26 Inquiries just above halfway down. Inquiries with British Telecom have revealed that Steel was a regular caller to the undmentioned telephone number in New Zealand. That's privacy redacted.
02:42:38 New Zealand. That's privacy redacted. But can you help us with who that telephone number belonged to? Uh, I think it's my sister's, but if it's not, it's a friend in New Zealand. You say in your witness statement it's
02:42:49 You say in your witness statement it's your sister. Okay. [clears throat] I know that they also looked up um a friend, so it's further evidence of the level of surveillance that's being undertaken
02:43:00 surveillance that's being undertaken and that there's no basis for it. Whatever they're trying to uh
02:43:06 uh create an completely artificial and false picture of of me within this Um
02:43:17 there's it's not based on any any actual evidence.
02:43:24 evidence. They just write what they like. Um
02:43:28 Um and as we can see and they admit the key fact that the real reason that I'm searching for him is because he was my partner who went missing. is it's a nasty and malicious
02:43:39 missing. is it's a nasty and malicious attack on me designed deliberately by them in order to get support from the New Zealand police for their efforts to suppress me exposing
02:43:52 their efforts to suppress me exposing what he'd done and the existence of the special demonstration squad. And as you point out in any legitimate assessment of threat, you would want to be privy to all the information
02:44:05 be privy to all the information surrounding Yes. Yes,
02:44:07 Yes. Yes, an individual and a situation in order to accurately assess yes
02:44:12 yes any possible threat. If we could take that down please and bring up MPS 0247461.
02:44:21 This [snorts] is another Lambert document. This is dated the 2nd of February 1998 although he actually writes the date on it 97 which is a mistake as is clear when one reads the
02:44:32 mistake as is clear when one reads the document.
02:44:35 document. Uh 0247461.
02:44:41 Um
02:44:44 paragraph two. There's a reference in this to
02:44:49 this to your attending the address of John Dyn's aunt Dorothy on the 7th of January 98. And
02:45:01 And he says at the end of this in return, Steele asked Wilston home if her daughter was Debbie and whether Debbie was married to John Dime. Is that accurate? No. Um because I didn't know at this
02:45:15 No. Um because I didn't know at this point that I didn't know that. Um,
02:45:22 I might have I might possibly have asked her about if her daughter was Debbie, but I didn't know John Dimes as a name at that point in time. So, I wouldn't have asked that.
02:45:34 in time. So, I wouldn't have asked that. I couldn't have asked that.
02:45:38 The If we could zoom out, please, and just go to the bottom of paragraph five, please, which is over the page. Um,
02:45:48 Um, the fact that several of his, that means John Dyne's former close contact in the ALF served significant prison sentences as a direct or indirect result of his
02:45:59 as a direct or indirect result of his intelligence may help account for the persistence of Steel's inquiries. That's again false. Um, as we saw from his own interview, he acknowledged that
02:46:10 his own interview, he acknowledged that he didn't get anywhere near the ALF when he was infiltrating London Greenpeace, not surprisingly. and all the other groups in North London that he was infiltrating. Indeed, we can take that down, please.
02:46:22 Indeed, we can take that down, please. If we could bring up MPS 0749474,
02:46:27 page 114.
02:46:32 This is a minute sheet and the minutes I'm interested in is dated the 3rd of February. So, it's the one at the top. It's from DCH and 58 addressed to OCU
02:46:45 It's from DCH and 58 addressed to OCU commander Detective Superintendent Roger Pierce
02:46:49 Pierce who is now in that position. [snorts] And he notes that from your flight details, you intend to depart from Oakland on the 10th of March
02:47:00 depart from Oakland on the 10th of March to Australia where you would travel for a month prior to returning to the UK.
02:47:09 UK. And then if we could just zoom out please and look at the gist at minute 14.
02:47:19 Note [clears throat] recording SDS information sharing with overseas police force which had been correct in the circumstances provision had been made subject to a condition that it could not be used to justify any deportation of
02:47:31 be used to justify any deportation of Helen Steel. I'd like to invite you to comment on that.
02:47:40 I find it hard to interpret this very brief gist of what is actually going on and it would be helpful to see the whole
02:47:52 and it would be helpful to see the whole what is actually recorded there so I can understand it properly but I just think it's outrageous that they are sharing information about me under false pretenses claiming that I'm a threat to
02:48:03 pretenses claiming that I'm a threat to him when actually the whole purpose of this is for them to cover up his abuse of me and prevent exposure of the SDS as a totally illegitimate
02:48:18 shadowy policing unit that they are embarrassed about.
02:48:26 about. In a similar vein, if we could take that down please and bring up MPS 0247543.
02:48:34 This is another letter from Lambert to the criminal intelligence section in the New Zealand Police. It's dated the 12th of March, 1998.
02:48:45 Paragraph two reads, "It is especially reassuring to note that Steel is likely to be denied entry should she seek to return to New Zealand in the future.
02:48:56 return to New Zealand in the future. Perhaps you would drop me a line to confirm the position once a decision has been taken." This is completely outrageous interference with
02:49:07 my freedom of movement under totally false pretenses to protect Dines and the SDS. Um it would have been particularly distressing
02:49:18 would have been particularly distressing had they succeeded with this because obviously my sister was living in New Zealand and that would have denied me the ability to go and visit my sister again.
02:49:27 again. So they're trying to interfere with your freedom of movement and as you say your right to business by telling them lies about me and not telling them the truth about the reason for my search.
02:49:39 for my search. Um on to the second page please. The minute dated the 13th of March 1998. This is DCI HN58 to Detective
02:49:51 This is DCI HN58 to Detective Superintendent Pierce. and it reads, "You will be pleased to know from the attached letters that Helen still has left New Zealand without further incident. She is scheduled to be in Australia for a month before
02:50:03 in Australia for a month before returning to London. The only inquiry she's made in New Zealand concerning John that we are aware of is to his mother-in-law and brother-in-law." John Dyn is naturally relieved, if somewhat perplexed, at Steen's Steel's apologies,
02:50:16 perplexed, at Steen's Steel's apologies, apparent failure to locate him. That's because they assume that I know what they know, which I didn't know what they knew. So, I hadn't pieced enough
02:50:27 they knew. So, I hadn't pieced enough parts of the jigsaw together. Um,
02:50:32 can I just I just wanted to mention cuz I I think you um skimmed over it, but there is a there is a letter on the 26th of January um that refers to there may well be good
02:50:45 um that refers to there may well be good reasons for allowing me to depart New Zealand without alerting me to any current police interest. Um, and to me that's a strong indication that they
02:50:56 that's a strong indication that they genu did not genuinely think that I was a physical threat to him. Yeah. Because had they thought that I was actually a physical threat to him, they would assume that I would come into contact with the police because they were they had me under surveillance.
02:51:08 were they had me under surveillance. Um, so
02:51:10 Um, so I just think all of this shows that they're being completely dishonest about [clears throat] everything really. Um, and you make that point in your witness statement. You said that out. Um,
02:51:22 Um, in any event, you've left New Zealand. No further incident. I'd like to move on now, skip ahead from 1998, please, to 2002.
02:51:33 2002. Um,
02:51:34 Um, this is the next surveillance operation carried out on you. This is under the opaces of a operation named Muscat.
02:51:46 opaces of a operation named Muscat. And
02:51:48 And um the reason for this, the documents would suggest or the trigger was because in the autumn of 2002,
02:52:01 in the autumn of 2002, a program called True Spies was broadcast on BBC 2. So the first episode was broadcast on the 27th of October and the final episode on the 10th of November, 2002. But it it it starts
02:52:15 November, 2002. But it it it starts before then because um I am one of the people that are put under surveillance from August
02:52:26 from August 2002.
02:52:28 2002. Yeah.
02:52:28 Yeah. Um
02:52:33 sorry I can't find it. I I I understand that they started to assess the impact from when it aired when it started to be trailed.
02:52:46 So actually before it broadcast but when they got wind of the fact well yes but there is a there is an important document um 232
02:53:02 um
02:53:10 yeah so um it's in paragraph 8 884 of my statement um document MPS719704
02:53:25 um which refers to operation Patreon has been but one element of close and vigorous monitoring of all sources of intelligence and open
02:53:36 of all sources of intelligence and open information which began at 5:45 p.m. on the 21st of August, which was the radio 4 trail for the series. Um, so um,
02:53:50 and then I'm specifically named and targeted as a result of their choice to publicize the SDS on television. Um, which cannot be a legal basis for putting me under surveillance.
02:54:02 putting me under surveillance. Um
02:54:04 Um and
02:54:06 and even though that document itself refers to
02:54:11 to um that a risk of physical attack on an officer should he be exposed is unlikely in the animal rights environmentalist and most of the left-wing field. Yeah.
02:54:20 Yeah. They nevertheless um put me and other people under surveillance. Yeah. I understand. Yes. I I've got this document actually here. Yes. That is dated the 28th of the 11th, 2002. But
02:54:33 dated the 28th of the 11th, 2002. But absolutely, paragraph 2 makes that exactly clear that operation patron came into being after that trail. Let's look at I tell you what, if we could bring up
02:54:45 could bring up just in chronological order, if we bring up MPS10049,
02:54:52 we're told that the date of this, it is undated, but it's the 9th of September 2002.
02:54:57 2002. And this is germaine to the point you made. This is entitled true spies targeting impact. It would this would seem to be a document that has flowed
02:55:09 seem to be a document that has flowed from operation patron and
02:55:14 and page three there's a
02:55:18 there's a heading true spies potential problem areas
02:55:23 areas and we can see in the bottom section John Dyn's ANA/LF Helen steel research so you are named there
02:55:34 there as a potential problem area.
02:55:40 area. Yes.
02:55:40 Yes. Um
02:55:43 Um and then there there's two other documents as well. Not that we [clears throat] necessarily need to bring them up, but the um MPS0967.
02:55:54 Yeah. um dated the 27th of August 2002, which is 3 days after the first radio trailer, the True Spies, which has space to record telephone numbers of named individuals, including me. Um, and the
02:56:07 individuals, including me. Um, and the names, there's only in terms of what's been disclosed to me, there's only three names, but those three names are all also listed among the names that appear in MPS. Is it this one actually? Um,
02:56:21 in MPS. Is it this one actually? Um, 0010049.
02:56:23 0010049. Yeah, that that's this document and also MPS 0010663
02:56:31 um which has columns for landline numbers and mobile numbers which indicates an intent to monitor those communication methods which then happened. Um,
02:56:43 happened. Um, so all of this surveillance that I was put under was as a result of the SDS choosing to publicize the unit in a false manner
02:56:56 publicize the unit in a false manner because they didn't actually expose what the unit was really doing. Um they gave a
02:57:03 a public relations version and we know from a document MPS 0036119 that Sir John Stevens who was the MPS
02:57:14 that Sir John Stevens who was the MPS commissioner at the time authorized the cooperation of the Metropolitan Police with the making of that program. Yes.
02:57:21 Yes. And that document also shows that Commander Roger Pierce wrote to special branch officers inviting them to participate. So it was a program made fully
02:57:31 fully in the knowledge and with the cooperation of senior officers. Yes.
02:57:36 Yes. Um the telephone numbers I think what's slightly confusing is in this document I think they've been redacted for privacy but the telephone numbers that you refer to
02:57:46 to did you at any point provide those numbers to the police? No. No, I've never provided those numbers to the police
02:57:56 and I haven't seen any documents that show any form of legal application for them to obtain my phone records. Um, which also should
02:58:08 phone records. Um, which also should have been something that ought to still exist if they weren't trying to cover up what they actually did. Yes. And we've been unable to obtain Yeah. such
02:58:19 Yeah. such documents. Um if we could take that down please.
02:58:24 please. Um if we could bring up please MPS011338.
02:58:33 This is an HN53 document entitled Operation Muscat Initial Briefings. Um, it's dated the 8th of December 2002 and
02:58:44 it's dated the 8th of December 2002 and this relates to HN53's trip to Oakland on the 21st of November 2002 to see Dines
02:58:54 Dines about
02:58:56 about the true spies impact and in order to brief local police. And from this document, it's clear that he had two meetings with John Dyn while he was there. one was more of a sort of
02:59:07 was there. one was more of a sort of introductory background to give him the context and the reason for his visit and then on page two he sets out what took place at the second meeting with John Dyn. So under the heading JD
02:59:20 with John Dyn. So under the heading JD second meeting um if we could look at under B actually the overall threat but he
02:59:30 describes meeting John Dyn on the 14th of December. He says as far as John Dyn was concerned the threat posed to him by the revelations fell into two clear areas. So these are the revelations set out in True Spies. a physical attack by
02:59:44 out in True Spies. a physical attack by former activists and two a public outing of his real identity and his activities whilst undercover. For the reasons outlined elsewhere, John Dyn was clear that he feels most vulnerable to the
02:59:55 that he feels most vulnerable to the threat from adverse publicity and in a worst case scenario would have no alternative but to move himself and his family out of the country immediately.
03:00:06 family out of the country immediately. Yes, which is understandable because um
03:00:12 um had I exposed who he was and the fact that he'd had a two-year deceitful, manipulative, abusive, and exploitative relationship with me, he would have been very
03:00:23 with me, he would have been very embarrassed, and I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted his wife to know. Elsewhere, he refers to not wanting his wife to find out the detail or his wife not knowing the details of his operation. And I'm quite sure that
03:00:34 operation. And I'm quite sure that that's exactly what's going on. Yeah. Well, this is his second wife as well because by this point he's divorced Debbie Dyn and he's remarried. If we could just look at C [snorts] just the bit you're referring to. So it's under
03:00:45 bit you're referring to. So it's under protective measures. We discussed and agreed the range of measures proposed and John Dyn expressed his gratitude to both NPSB and the New Zealand police for their positive joint response to the revelations. His only but primary
03:00:56 revelations. His only but primary concern was that nothing was done unduly to alarm his wife who was unaware of the detail of his previous undercover work. Yes. So that's the point you were
03:01:07 Yes. So that's the point you were making. [clears throat] Um, and it's clear from this in any event that his greatest fear is adverse publicity rather than physical harm.
03:01:18 publicity rather than physical harm. It's absolutely clear and he also says that in his in his witness statement at paragraph I think it's 204, isn't it? where
03:01:27 where um
03:01:29 um if I've got it here.
03:01:35 Yeah, he's clear. I've got it on that.
03:01:38 on that. Uh
03:01:42 sorry, don't worry. [clears throat]
03:01:49 In paragraph 204 of his witness statement, he says, "The decision to move to Australia was as much a family decision as anything else. It is accurate to say that the risk concerned
03:02:00 accurate to say that the risk concerned adverse publicity rather than personal safety as asserted at page two of the branch note dated 5th of June 2003. um
03:02:12 um MPS 0021520
03:02:16 and then you sort of brackets both the MPS and I are clear that the greatest vulnerability lies in the prospect of adverse publicity. It's absolutely clear that the whole
03:02:28 It's absolutely clear that the whole reason why I was put under surveillance and had massively intrusive interference into my life is because Dyn was being protected from being embarrassed for what he'd done to me.
03:02:43 Thank you. If we could um take that down, please. And all these malicious lies were being made up to further that cover up.
03:02:53 M still looking at your second visit to New Zealand in late 2002 and early 2003. Yeah.
03:03:00 Yeah. You traveled to New Zealand for the second time to visit your sister again and this time you went with your parents.
03:03:07 parents. Yes.
03:03:09 Yes. It
03:03:11 It had nothing to do with True Spies. I understand from your witness statement. That's right. We we booked the well, I believe we booked the flights in February that year, long before I knew anything about True Spies.
03:03:23 anything about True Spies. And you exhibit emails between you and your father about the costs of flights predating True Spies. We don't need to bring them up, but for the transcript, it's at UCPI 39914.
03:03:35 it's at UCPI 39914. Yes.
03:03:38 Yes. And
03:03:41 you entered New Zealand. So you left the UK on the 7th of December 2002. You stopped off in Malaysia, I understand, and you climbed,
03:03:52 I understand, and you climbed, right? We climbed up Mount Kinabalu. Yeah. Mount Kinabalu. And you were actually physically exhausted. And you and your father were unwell. So unwell. Yeah. Yeah.
03:04:02 Yeah. You arrived in New Zealand on the 14th of December, 2002 after a 12-hour flight from Malaysia. Yes. And when you arrived, you were held up, your bags were searched, and your
03:04:15 up, your bags were searched, and your boots were examined and sprayed. Bring up, please, MPS 0749474,
03:04:23 page 59.
03:04:29 This miss still is a photograph that would appear to have been taken of you and your parents in the arrivals at Oakland airport.
03:04:41 in the arrivals at Oakland airport. Yeah.
03:04:43 Yeah. It's outrageous that not only did they put me under surveillance, but they put my parents under surveillance and my my sister as well. And you're on a family holiday? On a family holiday. Yes. And they then
03:04:55 On a family holiday. Yes. And they then followed us from the airport back to my sister's house, took surveillance pictures outside my sister's house. Yeah, we'll we'll look at those photographs as well. Um, if we could take that down, please,
03:05:07 Um, if we could take that down, please, and bring up MPS11337.
03:05:12 This is an HM53 document. File note, Operation Muscat, Helen Steel arrival in New Zealand, December 2002. This is dated the 18th of December 2002.
03:05:26 So, paragraph one makes it clear there was a port warning in place 3 weeks before you arrived. Um, a discrete baggage baggage search
03:05:37 Um, a discrete baggage baggage search was carried out by customs. This revealed that Steel was in possession of two VHS videos, one dealing with the Mcllyl affair, the other apparently a copy of the BBC2 true spies programs.
03:05:49 copy of the BBC2 true spies programs. She was also in possession of a mobile phone. details could not be obtained. Um, and then in the following paragraph, there's a suggestion that it was suspicious that your parents passports
03:06:01 suspicious that your parents passports were renewed within the last four weeks, i.e. since the true spies broadcast. This is just ridiculous. Um,
03:06:13 This is just ridiculous. Um, apart from anything else, um, I am 100% certain that the police would have found out when we booked our flights and they would have known that it was long before the true surprise
03:06:25 it was long before the true surprise broadcast. Given that they found out all my flights on other occasions, they would have done that. They haven't put a note of the flight when the flights were booked in this document. I believe
03:06:36 booked in this document. I believe deliberately omitting that information so that they can portray it that this visit was somehow in response to true spies. But in fact, the the reason the passports were um renewed recently is
03:06:48 passports were um renewed recently is because in Malaysia had a condition that your passports had to last for an additional 6 months after the date when you left. Um, and so their
03:07:01 the date when you left. Um, and so their passports weren't quite long enough to understand take through that period. So they renewed them for that reason. And there's the implication that you're having True Spies and a MLE's
03:07:14 Spies and a MLE's VHS miel even, sorry, VHS in your luggage is in some way sinister. [laughter] Yeah. Um, I mean, they're both TV programs, openly available. Nothing at
03:07:25 programs, openly available. Nothing at all sinister about them. Um but um I was visiting friends in New Zealand that um had been involved in political campaigning. I was also going to make
03:07:36 campaigning. I was also going to make contact with other um
03:07:40 um well I don't know whether I was at that point but I did make contact with other um
03:07:46 um activists later to do a a screening of the McLeel film while I was in New Zealand. And I understand your friend from Yorkshire who owns the small holding had by this point immigrated to
03:07:58 holding had by this point immigrated to New Zealand. Yes. Um and another set of friends as well who um who had both both sets of friends
03:08:06 friends had been involved in political activity. Um and I thought they would be interested to see the program. Um if we go to paragraph four please of this same document.
03:08:22 Um, Sunday the 15th of December 2002, intell intelligence received from Red Herring and SDS officer that's HN3. Um, Jason Bishop, which appeared to add
03:08:34 Um, Jason Bishop, which appeared to add some substance to Steele's trip. During the course of the previous evening, Jane, a close associate of Still, remarked that the latter had gone to New Zealand. When Red Herring asked the reason for the trip, Jane replied, "You
03:08:46 reason for the trip, Jane replied, "You don't want to know." From context, Red Herring felt that the inference was that there was a sinister motive behind her visit. Now, actually, in his oral evidence, HN3 denied that the
03:08:59 evidence, HN3 denied that the description of that the way that that information was delivered was in any way portentous or suggested there was a sinister motive. He said that it was more one of
03:09:11 He said that it was more one of exasperation, the tone in which Jane delivered that. Right.
03:09:15 Right. Um, I just wanted to invite you to Well, it's just ludicrous. It's really clutching at straws to imply that
03:09:26 clutching at straws to imply that completely ambiguous language like that represents some kind of a threat. Whether or not she said that, I don't know. But it's it's just baseless to suggest that that
03:09:39 it's just baseless to suggest that that somehow
03:09:41 somehow uh shows a sinister threat or a sin sinister motive. Yes, it's not very substantial evidence. Um, second page of this, please,
03:09:52 Um, second page of this, please, paragraph one, reads, "The following measures have been or will be in place by the New Zealand police to monitor Steel's movements in New Zealand.
03:10:03 Steel's movements in New Zealand. Surveillance will be implemented as far as resources permit. Thus far, Steele has done little other than local shopping with her sister." Uh the fourth bullet point, urgent
03:10:15 Uh the fourth bullet point, urgent inquiries are in place to fully identify Helen's sister. So again, intrusion into my sister's life as well. Yeah. Um fifth bullet point, John Dyn's
03:10:28 Yeah. Um fifth bullet point, John Dyn's details have been removed from the publicly available land register.
03:10:36 And under the bit where he writes, I've advised DS rejected that we have implemented urgent inquiries to identify any current mobile phone for steel and further identifying particulars for her
03:10:48 further identifying particulars for her sister privacy. And then at the bottom, so again, just further evidence of very intense surveillance and measures being taken to monitor you and your close family
03:11:00 monitor you and your close family members on a family holiday. Yes. in New Zealand. Um,
03:11:08 if we could take that down please and bring up MPS0749474,
03:11:13 page 60. These are the photos you just referred to and we can see this is the product of the surveillance operation. Well, some of the product. So, this photograph
03:11:25 of the product. So, this photograph we understand to be the exterior of your sister's house. Well, it's a side view. It's actually the end of the street, but it shows where my sister's house is. So, yes.
03:11:36 where my sister's house is. So, yes. And page 61.
03:11:43 Thank you. There's a photograph of you and your sister and your mother. Yes. I believe that that is taken as we exited my sister's garden cuz I think
03:11:55 exited my sister's garden cuz I think that's her garage on the on the left. So, they were presumably sitting outside her house for some time to get that photograph. We can take that down, please. Um, now
03:12:07 We can take that down, please. Um, now there's a file note which I don't propose we bring up, but it's at MPS0011381. This is another HN53 report, another progress report on Muscat. This is dated
03:12:20 progress report on Muscat. This is dated the 30th of December. And in it there are logged further details of the surveillance undertaken on you and your family while you're in New Zealand. And
03:12:33 family while you're in New Zealand. And it records that you drove your sister's vehicle to Tanga and also on page two he notes that John Dyn was briefed on your movements.
03:12:45 Dyn was briefed on your movements. Yes. which is outrageous that the man who abused me was giving was given details about my movements and my
03:12:56 details about my movements and my family's home um
03:13:01 um when it's actually him that th posed a threat to me not the other way round. Um this document notes that John Dyn has gone on holiday on to Australia. He
03:13:13 gone on holiday on to Australia. He starts asking for restitution for lost income. And he also writes on this that ICS have now completed the first phase of charting for UK steel phone copy
03:13:25 of charting for UK steel phone copy attached.
03:13:27 attached. And you identify that on that amongst the numbers listed are your homeland line, your parents number and another. Yeah, I think um because there is one of those. I did ask for them all to be
03:13:38 those. I did ask for them all to be unredacted in the bundle, but um they haven't been, but I think one of them is available. I think it's a page one 47 749474
03:13:48 749474 stroke 105, I think, is the one that's available. Yeah, we can bring that up. So, yeah, 0749474.
03:13:56 And this is the billing period requested as at the 14th of November 2002 to the 14th of December 2002.
03:14:06 So this would appear to show combined billings for you and your friend Pete. Who's the friend from Oh, hang on. Is this the one? If it's Pete, that's a different one.
03:14:17 If it's Pete, that's a different one. That's a different one. But um page 105, please.
03:14:24 So this because this is a UK one and there are another two pages. There's page 103.
03:14:31 page 103. Yeah.
03:14:32 Yeah. And there's page 110. And this one shows them mapping um who I have called in common with my dad
03:14:44 dad and
03:14:45 and um
03:14:45 um I see
03:14:49 uh Jane Leaport is in the middle. Yeah.
03:14:53 Yeah. Um, and the the one that's on um page 103 also maps the phone calls made from a a third friend who is
03:15:05 made from a a third friend who is privacy redacted but who is named a couple of times by Jason Bishop right
03:15:12 right in his evidence who he says he was close to her
03:15:17 to her and she was a friend of mine. So, I believe they were maybe mapping her phone calls because they thought it could somehow give away some information
03:15:28 could somehow give away some information about me. But it's a gross invasion of all these people's privacy that they were doing this just to protect. So, it's almost a man who had abused me. The the the surveillance is expanding
03:15:40 The the the surveillance is expanding now, catching within its net. Yes.
03:15:42 Yes. Actually, quite a number of people. Um, we can take that down, please.
03:15:51 You say in your witness statement that you visited Napia and when you were there, you conducted some further research.
03:16:00 research. Um, you visited the local library. You looked for death notices and as a result of that, you found the death notice for Aunt Dorothy and you also searched the electoral
03:16:11 and you also searched the electoral roles.
03:16:13 roles. you exhibit that death notice. Could you just remind me where we are in my statement because I'm Yes, sure. We are um paragraph Well, it's page 243 in your statement.
03:16:24 it's page 243 in your statement. Thank you. Paragraphs 920 to 927. So, it's pages 243 to 247. Thank you. Um,
03:16:34 Um, so you found Dorothy's death notice and this is actually you don't exhibit it. It's in that large document, the MPS0749474. We will in due course come to how it
03:16:45 We will in due course come to how it comes to appear in that document, which is a police document. And then on the 21st of January 2003, you visited Wellington, I understand. Um
03:16:56 you visited Wellington, I understand. Um that's paragraph 929 of your statement. And you conducted some more research. So you looked into the births, deaths, and marriage registry. Yes. Um then on the 25th of January you
03:17:08 Yes. Um then on the 25th of January you went on holiday with your family to the Bay of Islands. Yes.
03:17:12 Yes. In New Zealand for a family holiday. And that this is recorded in the Operation Muscat chronology of events document by HM53. Again for
03:17:24 events document by HM53. Again for reference it's MPS0720851.
03:17:28 He sets out in this document a detailed record of your movements. And on page three, he says, "Friday the 21st to Saturday the 1st of February, Steel family traveled to the Bay of Island.
03:17:39 family traveled to the Bay of Island. Steele's father returned home at the end of this trip." Yes, as I say in my statement, it's another staggering intrusion into my family's life and also a massive
03:17:51 into my family's life and also a massive waste of New Zealand police resources. Um,
03:17:57 Um, if we could bring up please MPS0749425,
03:18:02 the email at the bottom of the page. So, the final email I'm interested in, this is from HN53 and it's dated the 17th of February 2003. And he writes, "Morning." This is
03:18:14 2003. And he writes, "Morning." This is sent to someone, a police officer, it seems, someone in uh at a police New Zealand police email address. Thanks for the email and attachments.
03:18:25 the email and attachments. I think that was a good move not to tell Hawks Bay about the bit on the second page. Um,
03:18:34 page. Um, now these attachments would appear to be if we could take that down please at MPS049474
03:18:44 and these are at pages 8 to 43. Now some of these have got temporary redactions over them but the ones I will take you to I hope will not. Um but amongst these documents and bear in mind again this
03:18:56 documents and bear in mind again this was a document we obtained from the special branch registry. This is not a document you provided us with. [snorts] These documents include Dorothy's
03:19:08 These documents include Dorothy's husband's death notice. Yes. And this one that's my handwriting. So at the bottom at the bottom of the page. Yeah. the the Bay of Plenty Times December the 4th 1989
03:19:20 1989 is is the death notice that we talked about earlier. Yeah, we can see John. Sorry, apologies to interrupt you, but it says, "Yeah, you can see in the death notice just as the third fourth column,
03:19:33 notice just as the third fourth column, final one, father-in-law of Donald and June, Debbie and John brackets London." So that's yes,
03:19:41 yes, something we refer to. So at some point, somebody has gone through my luggage and taken these out of my
03:19:49 of my uh my taken this out of my bag and copied it. Um I still have the original somewhere. Um I didn't know that they'd done that. us again. I mean, one of the
03:20:03 done that. us again. I mean, one of the things that's quite leaves me with still great anxiety and fear is the fact that there's
03:20:16 over 30 pages in that uh
03:20:24 749474 document.
03:20:26 document. Yeah.
03:20:26 Yeah. That are fully redacted. And bearing in mind that that is part of a
03:20:34 a larger bundle that Bob Lambert refers to as a 350 page document in his witness statement. It's clear that substantial parts of that document have not been
03:20:45 parts of that document have not been disclosed to me and that these 30 odd pages are about me um because they have been disclosed to me albeit that they're completely redacted. Um, and in the context of all
03:20:57 redacted. Um, and in the context of all the surveillance that I now know has happened to me and my family and my friends as a result of this, it leaves me extremely worried about
03:21:08 it leaves me extremely worried about what else I am not being told about.
03:21:14 I understand that some of the redactions on this document we have are actually temporary. So they may be revisited. We can look at removing. I think some of it was done for to expedite
03:21:25 was done for to expedite of the
03:21:25 of the documents. I'm not I'm not talking about the temporary privacy redactions. I'm talking about in the copy that was disclosed to me, there were over 30 pages that were fully redacted with with
03:21:38 pages that were fully redacted with with black redactions rather than the white temporary redactions. Um, you made the point in your witness statement that this was information you obtained while you were on holiday in
03:21:49 obtained while you were on holiday in New Zealand. So these documents could not have been duplicated or taken by the people at immigration who searched your luggage when you entered New Zealand on
03:22:00 luggage when you entered New Zealand on the 14th of December. Yes, that's right. Um
03:22:05 Um but also they are referred to in that email.
03:37:47 of operation muscat. So he moved from New Zealand to Australia and I won't bring them up but for reference there are documents authored by Mike Dell which set out the amounts he received
03:38:01 which set out the amounts he received and one is MPS0720833
03:38:05 dated the 11th of August 2004. Um, and it makes it clear that he was in receipt of at least 2.5 million pounds
03:38:16 receipt of at least 2.5 million pounds of public money. [snorts] Yes.
03:38:20 Yes. Um, I just want to invite So, he relocated. He bought a house in Sydney that cost four times as much as the house in New Zealand and the MPS [snorts] paid the difference. He was
03:38:31 [snorts] paid the difference. He was given a lump sum for loss of earnings. He was given periodic restitution payments for loss of earnings. I can't see any mention in the documents of his police pension and
03:38:43 the documents of his police pension and the medical the medical award in terms of him having at least some income during this period. But in any event, a vast amount of public money was spent on this relocation. I'd just like to invite
03:38:55 this relocation. I'd just like to invite you to comment on that.
03:39:00 I'm sorry. I know it's it's distressing.
03:39:21 It's hard to know where to start. This man was responsible for destroying my life, destroying my ability to form
03:39:32 life, destroying my ability to form trusting relationships, destroying my
03:39:41 ability to connect with other people properly, destroying my ability to trust my own judgment.
03:39:51 He sexually exploited me for two years. He tried to I believe he tried to
03:40:06 psychologically destroy me with his exit strategy.
03:40:11 strategy. And here he is. He's being rewarded for everything he's done. He's awarded a huge amount of public money
03:40:24 money and he's protected
03:40:29 and the police do absolutely nothing to protect me and other women who were being deceived and abused by this unit.
03:40:40 being deceived and abused by this unit. I can't
03:40:43 I can't I can't
03:40:54 I'm sorry I didn't sleep last night. I was too stressed and I'm just exhausted. Please don't apologize. I mean, I understand it. It's
03:41:06 It's incomprehensible.
03:41:27 Miss Still, if you're if you're able, I just wanted to cover your discovery that he was a police officer and your meeting with Rosa. If you're not able, if you would like a break or to stop,
03:41:43 then we can accommodate that.
03:42:05 and please just take your time. Whatever you need then we can
03:42:13 accommodate it.
03:42:24 I can try and answer those questions. Okay.
03:42:27 Okay. But at the moment my brain is just frozen.
03:42:31 frozen. I'll I'll lead you through what you said in your witness statement. I'll try and help you that way and if I [snorts] again make any errors or anything, you can correct me. But again, please say if
03:42:43 can correct me. But again, please say if you just want us to stop, then we'll stop.
03:42:52 We know from your witness statement, Miss Still, that on the 22nd of March, 2003,
03:42:58 2003, you returned to the UK from your trip to New Zealand. You say in your witness statement, you noticed that your luggage was packed differently. Can you tell me where we are in my Yes. This is uh page 261,
03:43:11 Yes. This is uh page 261, paragraph 1011 of your winner statement.
03:43:20 [clears throat]
03:43:31 and you say that you conducted further research on the 27th of February 2003 in light of the fact that you had now satisfied yourself of the link between
03:43:42 satisfied yourself of the link between Barker and Dyn and the fact that his real name was Dyn. You say,
03:43:47 You say, "Yes, sorry, but before we get to that, just to note that I do say also when I arrived back in the UK from New Zealand, I discovered [snorts] my luggage had gone been gone through."
03:43:58 gone been gone through." Yeah.
03:43:59 Yeah. So again, that was more intrusive interference with my private life. Yeah.
03:44:07 Yeah. You obtained John Dyn's marriage certificate on the 5th of March, 2003, and you exhibit that.
03:44:17 that. That's at UCPI 39919. We don't need to bring it up, but it shows that marriage certificate that when he got married, his occupation was a police officer.
03:44:28 his occupation was a police officer. [snorts]
03:44:28 [snorts] Yes. I when I looked at it, I remember that I recognized his signature. His handwriting was the same. So I knew it was him.
03:44:41 was him. And then I looked at it and I saw the occupation of police officer. Yeah.
03:44:52 And you describe the impact upon you of making that discovery. In your witness statement, you say that your head, it was like your head was exploding, that you broke down crying, that you had issues sleeping. I remember that. I
03:45:05 issues sleeping. I remember that. I remember just feeling the blood draining from me.
03:45:20 But that even at that time, you still didn't know he was an undercover officer?
03:45:24 officer? No,
03:45:27 No, I thought it must be the
03:45:32 that was what it was.
03:45:48 But when I talked to other people, they said no. Including my dad. Yeah. Yeah. No, that wouldn't happen in this country. You're being paranoid. Then it seemed too far-fetched.
03:45:59 Then it seemed too far-fetched. Yeah.
03:46:03 So, your mind was reeling and obviously it was having a terrible impact on you emotionally and physically. You say in your witness statement that
03:46:14 You say in your witness statement that you tried to ring him, having conducted some further research, but there's there was a recorded message which said his number had changed.
03:46:25 which said his number had changed. Who? Sorry. Um that's at paragraph 1023 [snorts]
03:46:34 [snorts] and that you say that your searches at that stage hit a brick wall. You were unable to find any further information on him nor anything relating to his police career beyond his being a sergeant.
03:46:48 And I understand from your witness statement that later that year, so 2003, your father was diagnosed with terminal cancer and you gave up searching.
03:46:59 searching. Yeah.
03:47:03 So suffering a very very distressing personal
03:47:13 set of circumstances in addition to the distress caused by finding out that John D was a police officer.
03:47:24 that John D was a police officer. Um you make the point in your witness statement that there is a report. I don't propose we bring it up, but again for reference it's MPS0748791
03:47:35 dated the 6th of January 2006 which refers to your being back in New Zealand and actually refers to the death of your father. Yeah. More intrusive surveillance.
03:47:47 Yeah. More intrusive surveillance. Yeah. So again still even in 2006 they're continuing to report on the private details of your life and your bereavement.
03:48:02 your meeting with Rosa. I understand, Miss Steele, that you bumped into Rosa in late 2000 in a takeaway. Yep.
03:48:12 Yep. And you knew her from your involvement in the legal and defense monitoring group and then from Reclaim the Streets. Yes. And that at that time Rosa confided
03:48:25 Yes. And that at that time Rosa confided in you that she was worried about Jim Sutton.
03:48:30 Sutton. And
03:48:31 And I'm sorry. Can I stop? Of course. Of course. Of course.
03:48:36 Should we take a break? Yes, please. So, I think we need to take a break.
03:48:43 [snorts]
03:48:46 Yeah. Um, we might need to go straight to re-examination after the break. Yes. [snorts]
03:48:54 I just
03:48:59 We'll break until you do have some re-examinations, I'd say. Still in discussion about that. Yes. [sighs and gasps] Well,
03:49:08 Well, I want this I want this to be put. Oh. about Rosa.
03:49:22 Should we just take I think we should take a break together.
03:49:28 When you're ready to resume, we will resume.
04:00:51 For reasons that uh there is no reason for me to spell out, we cannot continue with Miss Steel's evidence today. If she wishes to give further evidence, whether
04:01:04 wishes to give further evidence, whether to conclude what she wants to say about Rosa or by way of re-examination, then arrangements will be made for her to do it remotely in September.
04:01:17 That I think concludes this morning's uh proceedings. We will resume at uh 5 2 uh this afternoon. I know that um uh there
04:01:29 this afternoon. I know that um uh there is a rather larger attendance uh this morning than there was yesterday. So I will make an announcement about Tuesday today in case you don't return this afternoon to hear Mr. Walton's evidence.
04:01:42 afternoon to hear Mr. Walton's evidence. Um, on Tuesday, uh, for reasons that are personal to me, I namely my need to accompany my wife to a medical appointment, we will not start
04:01:54 a medical appointment, we will not start until 11. Uh, on Monday, we start at normal. Uh, I I think at um 10:00. Very well. Until 5.