Atif Choudhury provides evidence regarding his involvement with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) and the fair trade organization Zaytoun, while detailing his belief that he was racially targeted by undercover officer Robert Hastings (HN18). He describes the officer's erratic behavior and inappropriate advances toward women in his social circle.
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00:34:34 Oh. morning everybody. Today's proceedings are being transmitted after the usual uh 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report
00:34:45 mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, uh but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Yes. May the witness be sworn, please?
00:34:56 witness be sworn, please? I solemnly I'm not going to touch to my name. I do solemnly
00:35:01 solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm the evidence I shall give the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth
00:35:12 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth.
00:35:19 Yes. Thank you, sir. Mr. Chaudhry, thank you for coming to give evidence to the inquiry today. We will have a mid-morning break at about half past 11, but if at any time you
00:35:31 half past 11, but if at any time you need a break, do please just say so. Um you've made a witness statement to the inquiry dated the 23rd of May 2025. Um it's at UCPI 5038195
00:35:45 Um it's at UCPI 5038195 at tab A one of the bundles, sir. And could we just go to the last page of that, please?
00:35:53 There's a privacy box redaction over your signature, but did you sign um that statement? Yes.
00:36:00 Yes. And is that the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.
00:36:06 Yes. Um that statement will stand as your evidence to the inquiry. I'm going to ask you some questions about some of its contents, but I won't go necessarily through every single detail. Um I'd like to start, please, by asking
00:36:19 Um I'd like to start, please, by asking you just a a brief background question in relation to your um activism. Um generally speaking during the 2000s, how would you have described yourself in
00:36:31 how would you have described yourself in terms of being an activist or being involved in activism? Um,
00:36:37 Um, yeah. I've never liked the word activism or activist, not because of any left or right-wing connotations, although they're there. It's just It's not a way I would describe something. I I would think
00:36:49 describe something. I I would think we're building communities, and we build these words like activist as if we're somehow
00:36:54 somehow we're this, and other people are not that.
00:36:56 that. And I I think it's contradictory to movement building. Um, so I'm not sure if I would describe myself an activist, but I know that people would, and I and have I guess there's not much I can do about that. But I But I don't see it as a bad word.
00:37:08 But I But I don't see it as a bad word. I'm just not sure if it's a helpful word. Um, but in terms of what I was doing, yeah, absolutely. I was very proud of what I was doing. Uh, lots of ways because I was meeting a
00:37:19 Uh, lots of ways because I was meeting a lot of people with real care in the world, and how they look at the world, what their values are, and how they share that with people.
00:37:27 people. And what were your particular interest? You said about building communities. What What were you particularly interested in in doing and achieving? I had, uh, um,
00:37:38 um, grown up in a very poor council estate, uh,
00:37:42 uh, a very working-class white community, uh, to a place called Thamesmead. Um, it's a good place, but outlooks were not that worldly for a lot of reasons, you know? And even my friendship circles.
00:37:53 know? And even my friendship circles. So, later on in life, I found people really caring about I'd even find like English people caring about Bangladesh, which blew my mind, do you know? Um,
00:38:02 Um, I don't know why I did, but it did, cuz it's not something that I grew up seeing. We were very much not really talking about our identities in that way, rather assimilating as best we could, growing up where we did, to be
00:38:13 we could, growing up where we did, to be as English as possible, knowing that we weren't and weren't going to be. And so, we had a one culture in the house, and one Whereas, you're meeting people not just curious about your world, but excited by it, you know?
00:38:25 but excited by it, you know? So, in that sense, it opens up a lot of spaces. I I did an MSC in 2001 in violence, conflict, and development, and it was
00:38:36 conflict, and development, and it was particularly looking at the role of communities and civilian intervention, and what role they played. I was always looking at the Spanish Civil War, which I found fascinating, uh in terms of what it called upon
00:38:47 uh in terms of what it called upon around the world. The sadness of people in that space and what happened with Franco.
00:38:54 Franco. And I was always interested in what is it that makes people unite to a movement outside of a nationalism, which I I don't feel particularly strong to, or even a religion they're born into.
00:39:06 or even a religion they're born into. And so, the 2000s was a space where that got to be really actionable for me. Getting see seeing people working on nonviolent direct action against the Iraq invasion of Iraq. The 2001
00:39:19 The 2001 uh
00:39:20 uh the impact of the occupation, uh particularly on in Palestine. And for me, I hadn't studied Palestine at all. To a large extent, during that period, a lot of people were, and I was
00:39:31 period, a lot of people were, and I was more focused on the Chittagong Hill Tracts in Bangladesh. Um but what took me to Palestine was work where folks in the PLO and PA had been
00:39:43 folks in the PLO and PA had been witnessing the
00:39:46 the really just how genocidal things were happening with the English government, my own parents, I guess their kind of version of a government, the government that they know. And I felt no kinship to what that
00:39:58 And I felt no kinship to what that government was doing at all. But I was really interested in why the Palestinians were watching that piece of cord be signed. And it took me really interesting to there, and then So, how and when did you become aware of
00:40:10 So, how and when did you become aware of the international solidarity movement? Okay, so, I was in 2001, I joined a
00:40:17 joined a trade union group that gone to Gaza with with and there were Doctors Without Borders, Medicines Sans Frontières and Red Crescent there. And then I got to stay a little bit
00:40:28 And then I got to stay a little bit longer in Gaza. Um and then from Gaza the the ISM had been formed, not ISM London but ISM because of a thing called
00:40:40 because of a thing called the Israelis called it Operation Defensive Shield and essentially it was a blockade of Nablus, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, uh cities where they
00:40:52 Jerusalem, uh cities where they completely locked it down. And the ISMs were bringing food to families that need it, interacting even with children that were scared to go near windows. The siege of Nablus was 100 days.
00:41:03 Nablus was 100 days. It's a really hard thing for you to understand what 100 days of not being able to leave your home looks like, you know.
00:41:09 you know. So so far as you understood, what sort of organization was um international the International Solidarity Movement? What what were its aims and objectives?
00:41:20 what were its aims and objectives? I was really touched by it because I'm at the time in Gaza and I'm hearing about this and I want to go and see it in Jerusalem. Um and I was aware that it was made up of uh Israeli civil rights
00:41:31 of uh Israeli civil rights activists, if you call them that. Um but certainly Israeli civil rights movements as well as Palestinian ones coming together.
00:41:39 together. Operation Defensive Shield was really covered well in Leila Sansour's film, Jeremy Hardy versus the Israeli army. But it's showing how medicine where they're trying to bring medicine to
00:41:50 they're trying to bring medicine to communities. I had already been on a doctors tour looking at how medicine was not coming into parts of Gaza, how it hadn't come into
00:42:00 into Khan Yunis. And
00:42:03 And I was in
00:42:06 I was in we're visiting hospitals that were really
00:42:08 really in a desperate situation because of the bombardment of what was happening in Gaza at the time. I can't remember the name of the operation, but it was before operation Rainbow, which was a real big siege on Gaza. And how would you describe your
00:42:20 And how would you describe your particular role in ISM? I didn't really have a role in ISM. What I had a role in in the beginning of ISM London, but not in ISM.
00:42:31 ISM London, but not in ISM. Were you a founding member? Would you have considered yourself a founding member of ISM London? no, but I definitely definitely will strongly say I was there very much in the early days. So,
00:42:42 the early days. So, I don't think they we looked at things as founding members per se. I know that's going to be a little weird, but it's very flat structure. But, I was definitely there at the very first meeting, so I think it's fair to say, "Okay, we're going to call it
00:42:53 say, "Okay, we're going to call it that." Then yes. Um we don't need to bring it up on screen, but um for your reference, uh MPS 0069470
00:43:03 at tab 41. Um that's a report um from uh HN18 raw pace Robert Hastings. And that report um identifies you as a founding
00:43:15 report um identifies you as a founding uh member of ISM or ISM London. You you disagree with that. Yeah, I would just because I actually know where folks who were there who had been in Palestine were in the film, Layla's
00:43:28 Palestine were in the film, Layla's sensors film, that they had UK nationals had come back and had been very involved in the breaking the siege of Nablus. And I would say that they'd done such amazing work. And when they came back to the UK, and they created an invitation,
00:43:40 the UK, and they created an invitation, and there had been meetings in Kingsley Hall
00:43:44 Hall where Gandhi used to live when he was negotiating the liberation of India.
00:43:50 of India. And nonviolent direct action training was what they were doing there. And I went to the second or third meeting. Um and for that reason, I just wouldn't see myself as a founder. But, I'm not
00:44:02 see myself as a founder. But, I'm not against that. It's a great title to have, but it's just not what I would say. I would say the sort of activities you were involved in, you you accept you were there at the beginning of the founding days, yeah. Yeah, I was definitely there
00:44:13 days, yeah. Yeah, I was definitely there for the early days, yeah. You went to meetings. Yes.
00:44:16 Yes. What other sorts of activities were you involved in personally? So,
00:44:22 So, the part that I felt was very relevant and really important is this is really what my potential PhD was going to be. I'd done my masters at as I said at SOAS.
00:44:33 as I said at SOAS. And my wish was to do a PhD on the role of civilian intervention. And what particularly was interesting for me, and it still is, is the mental health impact of people. Do they actually help a
00:44:44 of people. Do they actually help a situation in what context? And when does their mental health burn out? Or where is their lack of which really interests me, cultural awareness or cultural competency on a situation?
00:44:56 situation? When does that cause more pain or more harm? These things are really important because it's enough for people to say I want to go and witness something. It's enough for me to say I want just to bear witness.
00:45:07 witness. You know, in the occupation, you can join Christian Peacemaker Teams. You can join the Ecumenical Programs. You can join International Solidarity Movement. You can join International Women's Peace Corps.
00:45:20 Women's Peace Corps. But does it bring witnesses? Yes. Is it important? Absolutely. But what at what point does it cause strain for families and if at all?
00:45:29 all? In terms of the activities that you were involved in as a group, you speak a little bit about this at paragraph 2.4 of your statement at pages 3 and 4.
00:45:40 of your statement at pages 3 and 4. Um you say the work of the group consisted of giving talks and film screenings, running fundraisers, and supporting people visiting Palestine, for example by giving training. And I
00:45:51 for example by giving training. And I think you gave training on cultural sensitivity and respect for those traveling to Palestine. Is that right? Yeah, that that's the stuff that really mattered.
00:46:00 mattered. And what sort of period of time were you involved in that level of activity for? Um I would say 2000 and It's going to sound intense, but it wasn't. We didn't meet that often, but
00:46:11 wasn't. We didn't meet that often, but when we were meeting, it was folks who were going to Palestine. We would do training on what the occupation was, how long it's going, what is the role of a international
00:46:22 what is the role of a international witness,
00:46:24 witness, and when your own politics and your own views on on on things can imbalance stuff. So
00:46:32 stuff. So And the the sort of years you were doing that?
00:46:34 that? Oh, I would say two two years tops. From the early 2000s, when exactly was this in the From 2002
00:46:43 From 2002 to 2000 and 2004.
00:46:46 2004. Thank you. Um I think you were also involved in some of the protests against um the Iraq war around about this time in the early 2000s. Is that right? definitely.
00:46:57 definitely. Um
00:46:58 Um I think you um helped to organize a sit-down picnic protest called make tea not war, which attempted to block um President Bush from being able to access Parliament. Is that right?
00:47:09 Parliament. Is that right? Yeah, I mean it was successful for a number of reasons, but it was a non-violent action to make tea in Pall Mall, and people gathered as a sit-down protest
00:47:20 protest for the which I still would say is an illegal invasion of of Iraq and what became the Iraq war. And in that space, there were marches all across the
00:47:32 there were marches all across the country and different groups and over a million people one day. Um
00:47:37 Um and that was important. But having a sit-down protest is a form of direct action. It's it's and it's a non-violent and I Yeah, definitely a big fan of it. Thank you. I'm going to come in a bit
00:47:48 Thank you. I'm going to come in a bit more detail to direct action and non-violent direct action in due course, but um
00:47:54 but um can I just ask you you you visited Palestine a number of times, I think, but but you say in your statement at paragraph 2.6 that you've never volunteered with ISM in Palestine. Is that right?
00:48:05 that right? Yeah. Um there's some reasons for that, and I can elaborate on but but yes, that's the answer. Um
00:48:13 Um do please give us briefly the reason. Yeah, so ISM is not like a an NGO or a membership where you're in and out. You're just around the community of people doing really good things. So,
00:48:25 people doing really good things. So, I would join a village protest to be with a villagers. Uh one example would be the village of Budrus or Bil'in, where every Friday there are demonstrations, and the internationals
00:48:37 demonstrations, and the internationals are coming, including ISM internationals, and you would go. So, in that space, I'm there. You know? But when it comes to things like, "Okay, you're going to be an international filming this checkpoint, and you're
00:48:49 filming this checkpoint, and you're going to use your, if you need to, if there's a human rights violation, then you will nonviolently film it. You'll even, if you have to put your body in the way of somebody coming to harm, then so be it." Those are things where people
00:49:01 so be it." Those are things where people will volunteer, and they say, "I'm with the Christian people." And you didn't do that. I'm there, but I don't volunteer because it's a bit different when you're I'm one of the few brown people,
00:49:12 of the few brown people, and to a certain extent, the only one. I You know?
00:49:15 You know? That which is key to this, you know? That's there. Cuz I don't get to when you're coming from a Muslim background or an Asian background, you don't get to do this the way your international white
00:49:29 do this the way your international white friends can. It'd be good if you could, but you can't. That's the point of the the you're using Israel's apartheid policies against itself to say there are Americans who play much more role. A
00:49:41 Americans who play much more role. A white American riding an ambulance in 2000, and I don't think it matters anymore. I think the genocide has got to that point. But in 2001 and 2, the chances of a Red
00:49:52 2001 and 2, the chances of a Red Crescent ambulance getting through a checkpoint was always tough. You know, people were dying. Babies were being born on that road on roads across Nablus.
00:50:00 Nablus. There was a death count attached to those babies, but the idea that you have a
00:50:04 a an Asian guy from the UK on that ambulance assisting the speed of the ambulance to go through, yeah, okay, but it's much better and it was clear it was really clear to me. It's much better to have an English
00:50:15 It's much better to have an English person or an ideally an American person and a white American person at that. And in that spaces I never felt I had much of a role. The more I looked at it
00:50:26 much of a role. The more I looked at it and I I would say that it's even when you're going to demonstrations, you've got Israeli peacemakers who would stand with you in affinity groups. They would look at me and go, "Wow, you're going to get smashed.
00:50:38 "Wow, you're going to get smashed. You know, they're going to pick you out." That was clear
00:50:42 clear and that would happen, but it's no certainly any certainly not worse than what's going to happen to a Palestinian who's going to get violently hit in their own village. But by the time of um 2004
00:50:55 But by the time of um 2004 uh or late 2004 indeed, um had your level of involvement in ISM and ISM London changed? Had it had it decreased?
00:51:06 London changed? Had it had it decreased? Yeah. Yeah, it was decreasing at 2004 for sure. Um mostly because a few things um that were really important to me.
00:51:17 important to me. I
00:51:18 I I felt and I suppose I had I bear in mind I'd just done an MA in in in 2000 before I went to Palestine. And I
00:51:27 And I felt everything I'm doing here is important campaign work. And I make meet amazing people that became lifelong friends. But everything we do is reacting to the
00:51:39 But everything we do is reacting to the occupation. This fits in reporting if I can illustrate it. The the soldiers IDF goes this place, we go that place. Um there's violence in this village, we go to that place. And that's important.
00:51:50 And that's important. I just, like I said, going back to the point of being an Asian guy, how important is it for me to do that? Well, yeah, anybody to witness it is important, but is this the strongest thing that I could do?
00:52:01 thing that I could do? And I instead found myself in very, uh, conversations that the international white folks were not experiencing. And that became more clear more and more. We'd go to villages
00:52:12 clear more and more. We'd go to villages and people would say, "Atif." And they were speaking Arabic, and I would say, "I don't understand it, shwaya Arabiya." And then we'd get a little bit of English, but what they're asking was always about what happens after this.
00:52:24 always about what happens after this. "What happens to us when they take these trees? What happens to us? What would you do then?" And
00:52:31 And this is the point where I realized the best thing that I could be doing here isn't going from one village to another or chasing this IDF incursion or that. The best thing I can do here is do something long-term.
00:52:42 something long-term. And that was to figure out how we build a market for Palestinian produce. Most of the olive, and this bit is important to context it. When we did a thing called Freedom
00:52:54 When we did a thing called Freedom Summer,
00:52:56 Summer, Freedom Summer was a call from internationals all around the world, and I was involved in that. It was an initiative led by international communities including ISM. It's really important. And in that space, Freedom Summer was
00:53:08 And in that space, Freedom Summer was asking people to pick olives. But when we were picking olives, people were not buying the olives. They
00:53:15 They the the Palestinian communities can't get their oil through the checkpoints. They can't get it through Egypt where they might sell it or through any of them. And that's when it started to become more important to me to say, "What I do here is an important
00:53:28 to say, "What I do here is an important space to do something long-term." So, in paragraph 2.8 page five of your witness statement, you talk about a visit to Palestine in 2004, during which you decided to set up an
00:53:39 during which you decided to set up an organization to sell fair trade Palestinian olive oil in the UK and that was Zaytoun, is that right? And does that organization still exist? Yes, it's 21 years old, I'm proud to
00:53:51 Yes, it's 21 years old, I'm proud to say.
00:53:52 say. And still selling olive oil and other Palestinian products? Yeah, we sell our dates are in every Oxfam shop in the country. So is our oil.
00:54:00 oil. It's in lots of fair trade shops across the country. We are known as We beat in 2010 we we beat Ben & Jerry's to the fair trade most important product of the
00:54:13 trade most important product of the year.
00:54:14 year. We don't need to go to them on the screen, but there are various reports. So for your reference MPS0065685,
00:54:24 MPS0065952,
00:54:27 MPS0069450,
00:54:31 and MPS0069470.
00:54:35 Those are all reports by Hastings, on various aspects of the organization Zaytoun. They concern people visiting the UK from Palestine,
00:54:48 people visiting the UK from Palestine, the financial situation and business dealings of Zaytoun and potential employee applications of Zaytoun the organization.
00:54:59 organization. What is your view and your reaction to HN18
00:55:05 HN18 reporting on Zaytoun in that way? Um
00:55:09 Um I think
00:55:10 I think I'll be entirely honest, I Well, I'm going to be, but I don't understand why he's doing that. Like, I mean, to give an example, if it was to report something to to say there's some sort of sinister means here, those
00:55:22 sort of sinister means here, those farmers are invited by the by that time the Foreign Office, you know, to support that we would get the Foreign Office to work with us even at the time
00:55:33 work with us even at the time Um
00:55:34 Um I think he was an MP I try and remember that name, but he was from ISM. He got involved when the Home Office originally turned down the visas. Those farmers that you're talking about, Jihad Abdul Tajer Arbasi, they went to
00:55:45 Jihad Abdul Tajer Arbasi, they went to Parliament. And in Parliament during Fair Trade Fortnight, they were welcomed by parliamentarians. We went into Parliament. We had MPs taking pictures. MPs queuing up to be in photos with Palestinian farmers and families.
00:55:57 Palestinian farmers and families. So, you would say it's completely unjustified reporting on what is essentially Well, I think Yeah, the intent here was to show that there's something sinister and it's not. Um
00:56:07 Um the Fair Trade movement I don't know, it's fairly I don't know I wouldn't consider it the most militant movements that we see in this country. It's a really great movement of people who care about trade justice. Um and Jihad
00:56:20 justice. Um and Jihad and Tajer are farmers. Um Tajer has gone on to be a director of Zaytoun.
00:56:25 Zaytoun. Um and we couldn't do this work without him.
00:56:29 him. How much of your time at this point were you spending on Zaytoun in comparison to ISM London? Had the the balance really shifted?
00:56:38 shifted? Yeah, way more. Way more. It was It kind of ISM London was a great community, as I said, of of not just people working on Palestine, but it was a great community of education and
00:56:50 a great community of education and values and sharing. Yes, I definitely wanted to formalize it more. I wanted us to have insurance, you know, for people so we can formalize this. We can document if there's things happening. Rachel Corrie had been killed by an
00:57:02 Rachel Corrie had been killed by an Israeli bulldozer. Tom Hurndall had been shot
00:57:05 shot by an Israeli sniper. These are things that really weighed heavily on the minds of people when we're doing training. I can't I can teach cultural competency to an extent
00:57:14 an extent to an extent, but a Palestinian could say, "Well, you haven't done really well cuz look at this guy." And that's right. But actually, how do you train somebody to outrun a a sniper when they're intent on killing you? And And in the case of Tom
00:57:25 killing you? And And in the case of Tom Hurndall, he was holding a baby. He was holding a
00:57:28 holding a He was holding a child that I 2 years old that froze when those snipers started shooting at children. That child is now dead and died when they were eight. We can't train those things and I I sorry, just to illustrate, I felt more and more a sense
00:57:41 illustrate, I felt more and more a sense of what is it I'm doing here again? Similar to Palestine, now what is it that I'm doing that's useful? And the thing that I knew that I can truly do that's useful was to build Zaytoun.
00:57:54 was to build Zaytoun. Um I think you stopped attending um ISM London meetings in late 2004, is that right?
00:58:01 right? Yeah, that would be right. And um you say at paragraph 2.11, page five of your witness statement, that you continue to be involved in some fundraising for ISM, including in
00:58:13 fundraising for ISM, including in organizing the Rage Against the Occupation fundraisers in May 2005 and May 2006, but was that essentially the extent of your involvement at that time? Yeah, I like doing those because
00:58:25 Yeah, I like doing those because um
00:58:26 um I again, it was just something that I felt was not unique to me, but I seem to have had a flare for it. I think I would the old other friends in ISM would say probably similar thing.
00:58:37 probably similar thing. We used to raise money for uh Aida refugee camp for children to who were doing dabke dancing. Uh we raised money for uh even at one point for sound systems and we did I
00:58:49 point for sound systems and we did I think called Sounds Like Freedom. And what I was really interested in knowing is if we can raise the money that works well in Palestine and can we use what was the national days of
00:59:00 use what was the national days of demonstration on the Iraq War and also on the occupation of Palestine. If people can go and then they go to a music event after, this is a really important moment. We had
00:59:13 important moment. We had um
00:59:14 um really good musicians, wood players, as well as um uh
00:59:20 uh really good musicians giving up their time for free to play at the events. Um so the extent of your uh involvement then in these groups during this period when H and 18 had
00:59:32 during this period when H and 18 had started to report on you was you were were setting up and running Zaytoun, which had no connection essentially to political activism. It was it was
00:59:44 political activism. It was it was looking at a long long-term supporting of Palestinian producers importing olive oil into the UK. You did some fundraising and you um organized
00:59:56 some fundraising and you um organized and delivered some cultural sensitivity training. Was that the extent of your involvement essentially in ISM London? Yeah, fundraising and training, yeah, that's right. And given that level of involvement then
01:00:08 And given that level of involvement then from sort of 2004 late 2004 onwards, what is your view about the extent of reporting on you by H and 18 Robert
01:00:20 reporting on you by H and 18 Robert Hastings?
01:00:23 Yeah, um It's like shocking. Uh painful in ways that I can elaborate if you ask me, but shocking mostly because
01:00:34 because it's nothing that wasn't already in the open.
01:00:37 open. Um
01:00:39 Um What do you call it? Open arena. Yeah, I'm very public about what I do, you know? I want people with the even if I'm even if pre-Zaytoun, I want people to come to a
01:00:49 come to a a demonstration, which is their which is their fundamental democratic right. And it's public. You know, there's no good me sending a demonstration in secret. You know, so it's out there. But in terms of Zaytoun,
01:01:01 But in terms of Zaytoun, the whole point of Zaytoun is a campaign to get fair trade into the UK to build markets for families and farmers. It's nothing that Rob couldn't have found out and didn't know already
01:01:11 already and was already aware of all the time that he'd he'd known me in that space. Um
01:01:17 Um Without mentioning any names just at the moment, um were there activists and how how many activists were there that were more active in ISM London than you at
01:01:29 more active in ISM London than you at this time in that mid-2000s period? In ISM London, yes, definitely. Yeah. And and what sort of numbers of activists were more involved than you were?
01:01:40 were? Um,
01:01:42 Um, it's difficult to answer that really with with accuracy, partly because I'm not there. Okay. But that's the truth of it. And secondly, it's not like a membership body.
01:01:50 body. It's people. So, after Rachel Corrie was murdered, for example, I remember I can't remember that year, but it's called it's 21, 22 years ago now. There were loads of people that would
01:02:01 There were loads of people that would come to meetings because it made international news. Now, if you ask them, are they an ISM meet ISM London meeting? Yes. You If you ask them, do you think you're in ISM London as a member? They might go, well, no, not really. I'm just at a
01:02:14 go, well, no, not really. I'm just at a meeting to find out what this is about. So, ISM would have people coming and going because ISM fundamentally ISM London is trying to teach people about the occupation. If I said who was there a general
01:02:27 If I said who was there a general statistic number that was regularly going to those meetings? Yeah, probably. I would confidently say that, but I can't tell you that number because You weren't there. I wasn't there. Yeah. Um,
01:02:36 Um, were you aware of, and again, without mentioning names just at the moment, um, were there other activists who spent more time with HN18, Robert Hastings,
01:02:47 more time with HN18, Robert Hastings, um, engaged in activism with him than you were at this time? Yeah, I mean, and it shows in his reports.
01:02:53 reports. I mean, he's talking about meetings that I'm not at. He's talking about coming back from meetings to my home to hang out with me after going to that meeting. So, he
01:03:05 after going to that meeting. So, he Again, you're looking at a whole bunch of what and I can just listen to him tell me about characters that I don't know or events or demonstrations that, from the looks of it, he's trying to
01:03:16 from the looks of it, he's trying to provocate. But I'm not.
01:03:20 I'm not I'm not there. So, I'm not sure what I can say on it. Um again, without mentioning names, um do you know um generally speaking what the ethnicity of those other members of
01:03:32 the ethnicity of those other members of ISM London, those other activists who were spending more time with Mr. Hastings
01:03:37 Hastings Hastings were during this time? I mean I mean Yeah, I mean that's I Again, I This is This is a sense that I have, but I'm I'm going to could be wrong, but I
01:03:49 I'm I'm going to could be wrong, but I just don't think so. ISM London became more and more in my opinion, and that does And Rob's wrong to say there's no ideological difference. It just I felt like it was a difference of where I can do more good.
01:04:02 difference of where I can do more good. But, it became more and more I would say anarchic, you know, and attracted a more an anarchist group than And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm going to really stress that. You can The word anarchist can turn into a whole
01:04:14 The word anarchist can turn into a whole bunch of I think it's just more people that work in anarchic structures. I
01:04:20 I And their ethnicity Yeah, their ethnicity. I think the answer to that question is it would be white, yeah. Absolutely. Um at paragraph um 2.12 at pages 5 to 6 of your statement, you say this. Given
01:04:32 of your statement, you say this. Given my minimal involvement with ISM London during the majority of the time of Rob's deployment, I do not understand why I was particularly targeted for reporting. I note that I was the only brown Asian
01:04:43 I note that I was the only brown Asian person or of Muslim background who was actively involved in ISM London at the time that Rob's deployment began, and believe that the decision to target me may have been racially motivated.
01:04:54 may have been racially motivated. Do you want to explain that a little further, please? What's the basis of that?
01:04:57 that? I strongly feel that. Because I cannot There There's two things that I think were happening is there's a hyper-consciousness or hyper-paranoia of brown people anyway
01:05:09 or hyper-paranoia of brown people anyway in the the in terms of activism. What does that mean? There's a hyper
01:05:18 racism towards people from Muslim backgrounds. Um
01:05:22 Um and and activism. And even if you said I'm an act I'm a Christian activist, that doesn't have the same connotations as someone saying I'm an Islamic activist. You know, as if Islamic means you're
01:05:34 You know, as if Islamic means you're saying something terrible. I'm neither, but
01:05:37 but it doesn't matter. It's it's I don't think it matters. I think it matters is how our story is told and the optics of that. And Rob told, I think, consistently a racist story in order to keep his deployment going.
01:05:49 keep his deployment going. And that
01:05:51 And that is something that is painful to say, but it's clear from what I've come to understand of his deployment, the reading of his own reports, and how he's justified. And it And it's
01:06:04 and how he's justified. And it And it's And I'll be honest, he Sorry, I'm always There's nothing in his report that's particularly pertinent to what says, "Okay,
01:06:12 "Okay, I was at T's house and he said something and it was really important." None of that is there. But I do believe that being the only Asian person and the only person from
01:06:24 Asian person and the only person from Muslim background in in ISM London at any point led to this. Um in 2006, were you attending any
01:06:36 Um in 2006, were you attending any meetings of the State of Emergency Collective at the London School of Economics? No.
01:06:41 No. No.
01:06:42 No. Um were you a member of State of Emergency? No.
01:06:46 No. Um What type of group was that just briefly?
01:06:50 briefly? I don't know. Uh thank you. Yeah.
01:06:52 Yeah. Um Mr. Hastie
01:09:04 Mhm.
01:12:54 Mhm.
01:14:49 Mhm.
01:16:44 Mhm.
01:18:39 Mhm.
01:20:34 Mhm.
01:22:29 Mhm.
01:26:19 Mhm.
01:28:14 Mhm.
01:30:09 Mhm.
01:32:04 Mhm.
01:33:59 Mhm.
01:37:49 Mhm.
01:41:39 Mhm.
01:43:14 things uh trying to pursue any intimate relationships with anyone else before his relationship with Maya. I think you deal with one occasion at paragraph 3.16 on page nine of your statement where you
01:43:27 on page nine of your statement where you say that privacy your partner uh had told you at a party the data party before she started living with you her and Rob kissed and it looked like
01:43:38 her and Rob kissed and it looked like they might go home together. However, Rob then went away and was acting strangely when he came back and then it transpired they didn't. Is that right? Yes.
01:43:48 Yes. Yes.
01:43:48 Yes. Um
01:43:49 Um what did she tell you about the circumstances in which he had kissed her?
01:43:56 her? Who Who initiated it for example? If If anything. Um
01:44:04 I don't know the answer. Um just going to pause it. She don't talk talk to me about it. It's understandable cuz we're we're going out at that point and then I don't think she ever told me
01:44:15 and then I don't think she ever told me until
01:44:16 until after this thing became famous actually. Right.
01:44:20 Right. Um but I don't know the answer to that. Um
01:44:24 Um Thank you. We'll move on then. Um I think
01:44:28 think uh
01:44:29 uh He also Mr. Hastings also This is a paragraph 3.16 page 9 of your statement. You say this, "Rob also told me that he wanted to start a relationship with my housemate privacy. However, she was in a
01:44:41 housemate privacy. However, she was in a relationship at the time. She later told me that Rob made advances to her which left her confused." Um do you recall that? Yes. Um
01:44:51 Yes. Um And did you talk to her your your housemate without naming her? Um did you talk to her about about that? What What did she tell you about the advances he had made to
01:45:02 had made to Um
01:45:04 Not a lot but just that she is with somebody. She's committed to that relationship. She kind of said, "Yeah, he was a bit forward and
01:45:15 said, "Yeah, he was a bit forward and consistent in it." Um
01:45:20 Um This was before anything had happened with with with as best my knowledge this was before anything had happened with Maya.
01:45:28 Maya. Um and I said to her at the time I said, "Oh I mean
01:45:33 I mean I I I wasn't wasn't much I I knew what to say, honestly. Um
01:45:39 Um she had a boyfriend at the time and so clearly rebuffed his advances. Would um H&18 Robert Hastings have known she had a boyfriend at the time? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, he he he he didn't just know
01:45:51 I mean, he he he he didn't just know that, he met them. You know, cuz that boyfriend would come over quite a lot as well. He knew them as a person. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um I want to ask you just briefly,
01:46:03 Um I want to ask you just briefly, please, about uh H&18's departure. Um the last time um you saw him, please, how had he been in the run-up to that
01:46:15 how had he been in the run-up to that last occasion you saw him? Had anything changed in his behavior or his demeanor? Yeah, he definitely had become a lot more erratic.
01:46:26 a lot more erratic. For sure.
01:46:30 And again, I can look back on it with a different version of you know, but if I'm trying to make sure I can stick with the with the legend guy. Um but he was
01:46:41 with the legend guy. Um but he was definitely a more erratic, you know? You could feel that about him that there were tensions coming. And it wasn't a total shock for me. It was a total shock that he disappeared for good, but it wasn't a total shock
01:46:53 for good, but it wasn't a total shock that he had something really big to deal with that was really stressing him out. And when he told me about his mom being really sick with cancer and he's got to go, that didn't shock me. It was more, what
01:47:05 that didn't shock me. It was more, what support does he need? He came for a meal at my home. So, I'd already known and I said I wanted to make him some food and just sit down and talk about it. Um
01:47:16 Um and he'd gone to a meeting. I can't remember if it was the Lark Centre the the We had gone to a meeting and I think and then from that meeting he came to my home
01:47:27 he came to my home and I think it was at that meeting or another meeting he I think he'd realized he's been exposed. Um but I had not realized it and no one had said hey Tiff
01:47:38 had said hey Tiff kind of you know this guy cuz and again cuz I'm out of all of this stuff so I don't I'm not sure I can Um so he came to my home but I looking back on it and from what I've understood is he got exposed
01:47:50 is he got exposed twice
01:47:51 twice once quite a few weeks before this which he brushed it off and more and more people are starting talking about it and the meeting he went to I can't remember exactly which one it was
01:48:02 remember exactly which one it was but he came to my house after that meeting.
01:48:05 meeting. And he told you that he needed to reconnect with his mother who was suffering with cancer and I think you asked if you could do anything to
01:48:16 you asked if you could do anything to help is that right? Yeah.
01:48:17 Yeah. He said no. And then he left and you never saw or heard from him again at all.
01:48:23 all. No, we tried. Again the difficulty is you know here's a guy whose mobile number it barely ever works or uses you know
01:48:31 know and I'd got into this routine of just arriving in that space I sure there must it wasn't smartphones but there must have been a telephone number for him to come
01:48:42 been a telephone number for him to come to the house there must have been but it wasn't smartphones so um
01:48:47 um but he came yeah um but we tried cuz I was naturally really worried for him. How do you feel now about that very sudden disappearance knowing what you know
01:48:58 know about him now that he was an undercover police officer and presumably didn't have a mother suffering with cancer? No no and and cancer's big in my family that's it's like I said I can't make it any I wish
01:49:09 like I said I can't make it any I wish it wasn't but it is it's taken every aunt I've got and my sister. Um
01:49:17 And he would have known that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, cracking you knew that. I mean
01:49:23 I mean that that that and it's painful because it doesn't really matter if it's cancer, somebody is really in need. And I had wanted him to try and reconnect to his mother anyway. And I was saying, "Look,
01:49:34 mother anyway. And I was saying, "Look, you know, people are just born into environments and a mother maybe she was born into a racist household. It doesn't It doesn't really matter. What matters is you're her only son and she's your only parent. You know, if it's workable
01:49:46 it's workable then then let's I'd happily help. So, when he was going to her, I was actually pleased for him, but I was also saying, "You need support. You're going to need You're going to need us." I even offered to go with him and he said she lives in Sheffield. I said, "That's not a big
01:49:57 Sheffield. I said, "That's not a big deal." I can't remember if it was Sheffield. I had thought she was still living on the Glyndon Estate in in Woolwich Common Stead in Woolwich. But, he said, "No, she's living now in in Sheffield." And I said, "Okay. Well,
01:50:08 Well, you go, but if you want me to drive or go with you, I can or go next time." And we didn't hear from We were chasing him
01:50:15 him to find out what happened to him a lot and even after my wife and I were getting arranging our marriage in 2010, we still really held him in our hearts of
01:50:24 of you know, a guy that we really missed who used to come over. And it seemed so odd
01:50:29 odd that we're having this great wedding in in Lithuania and all our friends are coming. And I guess the most fitting person to be there just on many levels, but also
01:50:41 be there just on many levels, but also to DJ
01:50:43 to DJ would have been Rob. Thank you. I I want to look at some of the reporting on you in a little more detail, please. Um, could we look at MPS0029410?
01:50:56 It's at tab B1 of the bundle. This is a report dated uh the 20th of October 2003.
01:51:07 uh the 20th of October 2003. Um, and I want to look um please it says intelligence uh international I think it's the next page.
01:51:20 Anyway, I can read the um I can read it out. Um Intelligence International Solidarity Movement protest surrounding the forthcoming visit of US President George Bush. And you, Atif, surname unknown,
01:51:33 Bush. And you, Atif, surname unknown, are described as a leading light amongst London-based members of ISM. And it says, indeed, he recently confided to an activist from Globalize Resistance that without a pair of linked
01:51:44 Resistance that without a pair of linked laptop computers in his bedroom, there would be no London-based organization of the ISM. He is very keen to involve his activists in a mass civil disobedience style action to protest the forthcoming
01:51:56 style action to protest the forthcoming visit of US President George Bush. Uh at this stage, he plans to support the action being planned for the 19th by JNV Voices in the wilderness. And I'd just like to to ask you, please, about the
01:52:07 like to to ask you, please, about the accuracy of some of the elements of that report. Would you have described yourself, or would anyone have described you as a leading light in ISM London at the end of October 2003?
01:52:23 I It's difficult for me to answer that cuz I I don't know what people would say. Leading light is a really flat structured organization. Um
01:52:31 Um It's like someone being leading light in Black Lives Matters. To to know to know it's it's not it's not an organization in that way, but I'm really flattered that people would say nice things. Um but at that time what is accurate is
01:52:44 Um but at that time what is accurate is the is the demonstration uh
01:52:48 uh outside Buckingham Palace, yeah, of um a palmar of the uh
01:52:53 uh Peace Not War make tea. That is accurate. Um And did you own a pair of laptops at the time?
01:52:58 time? Oh, no. No, I didn't own a one laptop. And were you in an organizer role within ISM London at this stage? No, I'd really started to move into at
01:53:09 No, I'd really started to move into at this point more olive oil and and say what became Zaytoun. And would you ever have described ISM London activists as your activists? No.
01:53:19 No. No.
01:53:20 No. Were you ever keen to involve your activists in a mass disobedience civil mass civil disobedience style action as is reported here?
01:53:31 No, I mean I do believe in civil disobedience peaceful civil disobedience. Yeah, I believe in that and I think there's a time when people are being killed and that we have to do that. There's a time
01:53:42 that we have to do that. There's a time in the civil rights movement and even the Bill of Rights that we have in this country
01:53:45 country comes from these things. What do you understand the phrase to mean
01:53:49 mean mass civil disobedience style action?
01:53:57 I don't know. Um
01:54:01 Um What does it mean to me? I I I like I said, if there's a mass of people saying no, not in our name, then that's a good thing, you know? I think the connotations in which he
01:54:12 think the connotations in which he writes it
01:54:14 writes it have darker connotations and they're not things I relate to, but I feel that that he's describing this. Do you think he's trying to suggest there would be
01:54:26 there would be a high risk of public disorder or violence involved? Yeah, possibly. I wouldn't have said that before, but having read
01:54:37 that before, but having read his report and and more importantly reading the the the the the special branch's reasons to keep going, I think he's painted a really horrible
01:54:49 I think he's painted a really horrible picture.
01:54:50 picture. And and was that the type of action that ISM London activists or indeed you personally were encouraging
01:55:01 indeed you personally were encouraging um or advocating? No. Tea I mean, a tea party is literally that. It's to have many people in a space that can be meaningful where they are just going to sit down
01:55:13 where they are just going to sit down and have a picnic. I mean, there's not not really the most radical thing in in the world, but it's different because this is a time when people are being killed on a scale. Demonstrations
01:55:25 being killed on a scale. Demonstrations that were across London are now being pushed into Hyde Park where they're out of the way. This isn't this isn't going to change things. To a certain
01:55:36 going to change things. To a certain extent, yes, we do need a critical mass of people, but that doesn't mean we need a critical mass of violence. Nor is it something that we should suggest, but I'm really proud of being something that became the million person march across London that said not in our
01:55:49 march across London that said not in our name.
01:55:49 name. Just want to ask you a little bit further further up before we break in a moment about direct action and what you understand direct action to mean. Paragraph 2.2, page 3 of your witness
01:56:01 Paragraph 2.2, page 3 of your witness statement, you've referred to non-violent direct action as being one of the core principles of ISM. Um are direct action and non-violent direct
01:56:12 are direct action and non-violent direct action two different things or are the phrases interchangeable so far as you're concerned and in relation to ISM? Yeah, I mean, ISM is is cuz I would not have gone to entertain
01:56:24 cuz I would not have gone to entertain any space around it if it wasn't a non-violent uh uh direct action organization, and I I do believe in that. Uh I'm not a pacifist. I I you know, if
01:56:36 Uh I'm not a pacifist. I I you know, if it's hap- things like this are happening to my family in such a way, then I cannot just say I will just take it, you know?
01:56:44 know? But as an organization, the International Solidarity Movement has always been a non-violent organization, absolutely. Would Would you accept um at all that
01:56:55 Would you accept um at all that non-violent direct action might carry a risk of there being public disorder or violence at one of of that type of action. Or not.
01:57:06 Or not. No. No, I don't believe there'd be uh
01:57:12 Uh it really depends what we mean by public disorder. Any demonstration of any kind is probably going to be could be ascertained as public disorder. Suffragettes was
01:57:23 Suffragettes was public disorder, definitely. Um but we look back on that and say, "Well, we're really grateful it was." Um but
01:57:30 Um but this is not a space where violence is being asked for or called for. Um and I think that we're watching the violence happening unduly to families in Gaza and and Iraq as we were then and we are
01:57:41 and Iraq as we were then and we are today.
01:57:43 today. That
01:57:44 That I don't think violence is called for. What's been called for is international concern and and and a change. So, you would say that was the position or philosophy of ISM and ISM London in
01:57:55 or philosophy of ISM and ISM London in terms of
01:57:57 terms of a a risk
01:57:57 a a risk and and mine as well. public violence. Yeah. And mine. I mean, I I I truly believe that we need as many people to be concerned
01:58:08 people to be concerned about social injustice as we can. What about a risk of criminality or lawbreaking? Was that an accepted risk amongst ISM activists or by you?
01:58:19 No. For me, I I don't have the privilege of going through those situations. So, just to illustrate, going right back to the beginning of this, I I would I feel I live in a state that is really
01:58:30 I live in a state that is really impacted by many things on a good way that it concerns its citizens, but I'm also living in a state that's moved by moral panics and media that dehumanizes people every day.
01:58:41 day. It is not easy for me to say uh to wear a placard say Palestine action, for example. But I do believe in those principles. I absolutely do. But I would have a very
01:58:52 absolutely do. But I would have a very difficult time compared to maybe elderly pensioners, you know? And that tactic would make sense. Um
01:58:59 Um What
01:59:00 What That's how it's done. If I'm illustrating that point. The other side of it is using violence in order to show violence is wrong is never a healthy way
01:59:11 is wrong is never a healthy way to engage on this. And this is something that what we need is collective action. And that includes people coming to these things as children to be able to know that they're safe here. They're people with values and principles that choose to
01:59:23 and principles that choose to fundamentally care about the livelihoods of people
01:59:26 of people living far away from them, but still matter. And that doesn't change in this. And I don't think it changed for ISM, but I'm just not their spokesperson. Um
01:59:36 Um have you or ISM generally ever advocated for public disorder or violence or was it ever used as a deliberate strategy or tactic?
01:59:45 tactic? No, definitely not for ISM as best I can be aware of. I just would would would say that. But, I don't know as I say, I'm not their spokesperson. But, for me,
01:59:56 spokesperson. But, for me, definitely not. Um I mean, I don't know. 21 years of say to it is not the most violent
02:00:02 violent um organization that I think I can come across. Fair trade is many things, but violent isn't one of them. Thank you. Um sir, that may be a convenient moment for the break. Certainly.
02:00:13 Certainly. We always have a break of quarter of an hour so that the transcribers can have a rest and indeed you can as well. Thank you. Thank you.
02:02:44 Mhm.
02:04:39 Mhm.
02:06:34 Mhm.
02:08:29 Mhm.
02:10:24 Mhm.
02:12:19 Mhm.
02:14:14 Mhm.
02:15:50 Thank you, sir. Um, can we look at at a report, please, about a protest against the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon? It's at MPS0069142
02:16:02 and it's at tab 34 of the bundle, sir. This is a report dated the 19th of July Uh 2006.
02:16:11 Uh 2006. As I said, it concerns a protest against the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon on the
02:16:17 the The protest was on the 18th of July. The report is dated the 19th. It was a candlelit vigil held in Parliament Square of approximately 200 people who H and 18 Robert Hastings
02:16:30 people who H and 18 Robert Hastings reports appeared to be Lebanese. He reports that a small group of about a dozen activists usually allied to the Palestine Solidarity Campaign PSC and
02:16:42 Palestine Solidarity Campaign PSC and International Solidarity Movement ISM were also there. And the report states this, "During the vigil, Privacy PH, which we understand means phonetic, a female activist who is
02:16:54 means phonetic, a female activist who is well known in both ISM and PSC circles, asked Betty Hunter from the PSC if she could organize an action. Hunter agreed and Privacy SN, you surname unknown,
02:17:06 and Privacy SN, you surname unknown, started to gather a small group of about a dozen activists together. At about 10:00 p.m. this group ran into the road outside Parliament and sat down in the road and managed to stop traffic.
02:17:17 road and managed to stop traffic. The These protesters who ran into the road included and then there's a list of names and as you can see, Mr. Choudary, your name is there. The report continues on that the group
02:17:30 The report continues on that the group were followed into the road by a large group of Lebanese protesters. How However, the sit-down was halted because Lebanese stewards called the Lebanese
02:17:41 Lebanese stewards called the Lebanese protesters to return to the pavement and started to remove the activist from the road.
02:17:46 road. However, Privacy managed to evade the stewards and ran back into the road intent on sitting down to stop traffic. He was promptly arrested by police. And
02:17:58 He was promptly arrested by police. And I just want to ask you about the accuracy of those elements of the report, please. Um firstly, were you present at this candlelit vigil? Definitely. Yeah. Um were the other people that you see
02:18:11 Um were the other people that you see um listed there, just in terms of uh the small group of activists. Um if you need to see underneath the privacy reductions, it's document number 16 on
02:18:22 reductions, it's document number 16 on your cipher list beside you. But broadly speaking, does that appear accurate?
02:18:29 accurate? From best that I can recollect, yeah. I I can't be sure of those names. But they're the names that I can see so far are familiar to me. But I can't say for sure that they were there.
02:18:40 for sure that they were there. Thank you. Um did you run into the road outside Parliament with other activists and sit down in the road? No.
02:18:47 No. Um
02:18:47 Um But I did remember the event and I do remember that happening. So it did happen, but you didn't do it. No.
02:18:55 No. Um did they manage to stop traffic? No, cuz it was it was it was something that was decided in seconds, from what I could see. Pe- uh Lebanon was being bombarded at the time.
02:19:05 the time. Uh there was a lot of tension. Um Lebanese
02:19:11 Lebanese uh diaspora families were asking for this
02:19:14 this uh
02:19:14 uh vigil to happen. And the vigil had to be really really welcomed, and it was. But there was tension, and people did a protest, but it was quickly quelled when the same Lebanese families that said,
02:19:25 the same Lebanese families that said, "Please, no. This is not what we called for. What we wanted this was a candlelit vigil."
02:19:29 vigil." Thank you. I know of all of that happening, and I remember it really well. Um
02:19:34 Um was this an example of the type of nonviolent direction direct action um that you were speaking about, or is this something different? This is a bit different. Because I mean,
02:19:46 This is a bit different. Because I mean, if we need to if folks need to uh take over roads and occupy them, then that's understandable. Again, this is in the history of the civil rights movement. But it's also organizing it in a way that ambulances can get through, that
02:19:57 that ambulances can get through, that people who are in in needing medical care can get be assisted. And so, when it's this impromptu,
02:20:05 we are as I said, we're watching we're watching people being killed on on a big scale, but this doesn't help the problem if we've not coordinated or people are not coordinating something that's helpful to make sure that the
02:20:17 that's helpful to make sure that the first the first thing we do is do no harm. You know? I see.
02:20:21 I see. Um but I I do remember this had happened and it was it lasted for a few seconds because people arrived and then the Lebanese stewards had said, "Please don't don't do this to me." Um would you accept that um in this type
02:20:33 Um would you accept that um in this type of action there was potentially a risk of public disorder occurring?
02:20:48 Yeah, I suppose so, but how do you address I mean, if I can elaborate, a candle vigil is what was called for. And and how do we look at every situation that we're in and say, "Well, this might happen or that might happen." when we've
02:20:59 happen or that might happen." when we've we're really asking the world to witness what's happening in Lebanon, the scale in which it's happening, and to bring candles and and hold that space. Um
02:21:09 Um did um ISM London activists generally actively seek to get arrested? Was that part of a a strategy or tactic generally speaking?
02:21:21 speaking? No, I don't think so. Um was it ever part of your intention? No.
02:21:27 No. No.
02:21:31 Um could we look, please, at uh MPS 0029556,
02:21:41 please, at page two.
02:21:52 Uh in one of these reports, there is um a suggestion again that you're a leading light is the third uh big big block down intelligence visit
02:22:03 uh big big block down intelligence visit of US President George Bush.
02:22:08 Um we've dealt with that. There is another suggestion uh within this report uh if we could just zoom out again, please.
02:22:17 please. Um that an activist is reported as saying
02:22:21 saying uh that Atif is ISM London. Um you deal with this at paragraph 4.8, page 11 of your statements and say this is not something I would have said and did not believe anyone else involved
02:22:33 did not believe anyone else involved with ISM London would have said or thought this. Is that right? Yeah.
02:22:37 Yeah. So,
02:22:38 So, what do you say about this reporting by Mr. Hastings then? Firstly, it's inaccurate. Is that right? Yeah, and
02:22:48 Yeah, and uh
02:22:48 uh like I said, ISM and and and I mean it's that
02:22:52 that whilst I I was there in the beginning, and I'm really proud of that. It's not a a a hierarchy organization or a membership organization. It's just people doing good work to get people
02:23:03 people doing good work to get people mentally and mentally uh prepared to learn about the occupation and to go to Palestine if needed. Um being a leading light on it is an odd way of describing anything, but I didn't think Rob had written that. I thought
02:23:14 think Rob had written that. I thought that had come from Simon Wellings. You're quite right, it isn't it? Thank you. So, my my um misspeak. And Simon Wellings, I
02:23:25 And Simon Wellings, I don't remember ever meeting, but the person came to our house cuz described our house in one of the reports that I'd read where they'd come to the house party that we had.
02:23:37 party that we had. Um
02:23:38 Um and was there. Thank you. Um can we move on to another report then, please? It's page three of MPS0029556
02:23:48 tab B2 of the bundle.
02:23:56 So, it's the next page.
02:24:03 And it's the second paragraph down. Yeah.
02:24:06 Yeah. A thief claims to have a source working for Jane's Defense who regularly leaks him information pertaining to Israeli Defense Force IDF weapons and surveillance systems. While much of this data would presumably
02:24:18 While much of this data would presumably become open source at some stage, a thief clearly considers considers it a great bonus to get it early and for free.
02:24:25 free. He talks confidently and with authority about IDF low-level tactics and procedures. It is believed that a thief writes and delivers all of the training given to London ISM as about travel to
02:24:36 given to London ISM as about travel to the occupied territories and briefs them extensively on how to spot surveillance teams and technical surveillance measures. And just moving down further
02:24:47 down further in the same report, a thief is currently one of the leading personalities within the Resist Bush Collective and is the sole voice arguing that action should be more hardcore and controversial. He
02:24:58 more hardcore and controversial. He argued against the adoption of a radical tea party theme opining that it was too soft and would not attract the most militant elements of the movement. Um did you know the
02:25:10 of the movement. Um did you know the organization Jane's Defense? No.
02:25:13 No. Did you ever have a source um leaking you information as described in this report? No.
02:25:19 No. Um
02:25:21 Um did you have the type of knowledge of state surveillance described here? I didn't spot Robert. No.
02:25:28 No. Sorry.
02:25:29 Sorry. Or any particular ability to spot undercover agents? Um
02:25:37 so, in in those regards, this report's entirely inaccurate. Is that right? Yeah.
02:25:42 Yeah. Um
02:25:43 Um you've talked about um the your role in training um ISM volunteers. Was that essentially the type of cultural sensitivity training that you described
02:25:54 sensitivity training that you described uh people volunteers going to Palestine? Correct.
02:25:57 Correct. And did did it involve any type of issues of surveillance or monitoring forces in Iraq? No. No.
02:26:05 No. No. Um
02:26:07 Um were you ever arguing for the adoption of hard core confrontational tactics? No.
02:26:13 No. Um
02:26:14 Um I want to add to that as well cuz it's quite
02:26:17 quite it's quite painful in in the context of knowing Rob that that where that would place
02:26:24 place such harm in my life. But secondly, the whole point is to bring a broad-based movement to recognize what's happening to communities in Palestine or Iraq and now in Lebanon.
02:26:36 Iraq and now in Lebanon. So, hardcore militants is not how we're going to do that. And it's just against every principle I understand and Rob knew would have known that.
02:26:44 that. Or did know that. And and far from opposing the tea party idea, you were in favor of it. As being a sort of more fun and creative means of protest than just marching.
02:26:55 means of protest than just marching. Yeah, it's really important to recognize that we have to do this where communities are safe. That includes families coming to these events as well. Um can we move on then to another report
02:27:07 Um can we move on then to another report MPS 0031940 at tab B3 of the bundle?
02:27:17 Uh this is a report on the founding of the radical activist network and a meeting on the 5th of March uh 2004.
02:27:27 uh 2004. Um
02:27:28 Um did you attend that meeting of the founding of the radical activist network?
02:27:33 network? I don't remember going to that meeting, but I
02:27:36 but I know
02:27:36 know ever involved with that organization? Uh
02:27:40 Uh in the sense that one of my housemates uh
02:27:44 uh was very much involved in it. And
02:27:48 And it was made up of NGO workers against the war.
02:27:53 the war. It was
02:27:54 It was I think the name makes it more sound more grandiose than it is. But essentially it's NGO workers from organizations like Amnesty International, War on Want,
02:28:05 International, War on Want, uh WaterAid, and in this case
02:28:10 um VSO.
02:28:13 VSO. But it's not that radical, but it was good conscious people from middle-class white backgrounds who build a really good network of people and could hire things like the London
02:28:24 and could hire things like the London theater of LSE. Um
02:28:26 Um Um is it accurate to say that those involved with the radical activist network were coalescing around you and privacy, and if you wish to see the name
02:28:37 privacy, and if you wish to see the name under the privacy reduction it's document number 18 on your cipher list, but you may be able to tell um who that is.
02:28:47 The name underneath at the bottom I don't know. The one
02:28:52 The one But the name above, yes I do, and that was my housemate. Yes.
02:28:56 Yes. Um but is it accurate to say that those involved with the radical activist network were coalescing around the two of you?
02:29:03 of you? Yeah, definitely because um one of the folks is just a really good person that I was at university with, and dear friend, and others were
02:29:14 and dear friend, and others were because my housemate and I living in the same house. So just in the sense of proximity. Yeah. Yeah. Um the report goes on to state in the third paragraph, "These ISMA's
02:29:26 third paragraph, "These ISMA's um and that's referring back to you and your housemate privacy, and a small group of recently returned from Gaza independent activists are extremely radical in outlook. Perhaps not
02:29:37 radical in outlook. Perhaps not surprisingly as many of them have spent considerable periods of time in the Balata refugee camp and Gaza and other areas of the occupied territories. Direct action is in their blood and if
02:29:48 Direct action is in their blood and if they get organized they could become a potent new force on the London activist scene.
02:29:53 scene. Um
02:29:54 Um is that accurate?
02:29:58 Well, we're not really. I mean it's What What does he mean direct action is in their blood? I mean that's a connotation, right? I mean direct action was
02:30:07 was Martin Luther King's direct action. It was, you know, when you say it's in his blood
02:30:13 blood Do you agree? rights is in his blood. You know, so this is said in a particular way. They've just come back from something and they're radical extremely radical. That has a connotation for me around
02:30:25 That has a connotation for me around um
02:30:27 um violence. And And I don't think anyone in ISM
02:30:32 in ISM especially when they come back from from Palestine and Gaza are anything but just heartbroken. And they're not radical in terms of violence, but they are definitely
02:30:43 violence, but they are definitely definitely dedicated quite often to being part of something that changes it.
02:30:47 it. Um and that that I I I stand by. But and if it's direct action, well, yeah, okay, then then we direct action is it. But what he's referring to here is
02:30:57 is a bloodlust. Something that can be a force of of real harm.
02:31:03 harm. And I think that's deliberate. And I think he's deliberately doing that to a legitimize his surveillance, provide officers when they're asking him for things that are not in the common
02:31:14 for things that are not in the common domain, he's trying to justify that. He himself has has friendships with the folks that are coming back. The only time I've ever seen things where you're seeing what could be seen
02:31:26 where you're seeing what could be seen as radical, is when I look at the emails that ISM shared, where Rob himself is a consistently driving people to which is very helpful, actually,
02:31:38 to which is very helpful, actually, to to, you know, if there's banners to be taken, he's got a van and he's always helping people. That's helpful, but actually when he's calling for militancy in his emails in the ISM list. And
02:31:50 And that never So, I I'd already left by then, but you I'm on some email chains, and it never stopped off a big thing that I think he wanted.
02:31:59 wanted. Thank you. Uh that can be taken down now.
02:32:02 now. Um
02:32:03 Um at paragraph uh 4.25 and 4.26 of your statement, you deal with some reports um that deal with a single meeting having taken place on the 1st of August 2006,
02:32:16 taken place on the 1st of August 2006, and I just want to ask you about one of them, which is MPS00 69458.
02:32:24 It's a report about um uh a suggestion that uh Raphael should be targeted. And at paragraph 4.26, you say, "I don't
02:32:37 And at paragraph 4.26, you say, "I don't recall the meeting, although it is possible I was present. I'm certain that I did not attend any of these demonstrations. I did not and would not have pro- proposed Raphael as a target. If I If I did attend the meeting, it
02:32:49 If I If I did attend the meeting, it would have been as an observer, and I would not have taken an active role. At the time, my energy was invested in setting up Zaytoun, and I was not engaging in organizing protests or
02:33:00 engaging in organizing protests or similar."
02:33:01 similar." Uh is that right? Yeah.
02:33:04 Yeah. Um
02:33:05 Um And also,
02:33:06 And also, I had By that point, I had left ISM anyway, 2006. I
02:33:12 I Again, it's really difficult to describe it as leaving a lot It I will kind of compare it to like Black Lives Matters. You don't start it any more than you leave it. You just share its values. But I wasn't around then. Um and if I was
02:33:25 I wasn't around then. Um and if I was here, I don't recall it. But, the targeting of Israeli militant industries
02:37:14 Mhm.
02:41:04 Mhm.
02:42:59 Mhm.
02:44:54 Mhm.
02:46:43 Thank you.
02:46:49 Uh could we have please NPS 0526935?
02:46:54 It's tab B16 of the bundle at page 228, please.
02:47:03 And this this document, so that we can orient ourselves, is a is a compilation of a number of applications for and authorities granted under RIPA, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act,
02:47:16 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, for
02:47:17 for H&A team Robert Hastings undercover deployment. And this says that um the uh
02:47:26 the uh International Solidarity Movement, ISM, uh
02:47:31 uh is a left-wing organization committed to defending the rights of Palestinians in Israel and the Palestinian homelands. Uh it is also playing an increasing role in self-appointed monitoring of
02:47:43 in self-appointed monitoring of coalition forces in Iraq. Although UK-based, its primary focus is on the Israeli Defense Forces, and the majority of its membership will have had direct experience of living and working in
02:47:54 experience of living and working in Palestine and Israel. It does, however, play a significant part in protests and demonstrations in the UK, and in common with other left-wing organizations has the potential for involvement in public disorder. Um
02:48:06 disorder. Um I think you would say that um describing ISM as UK-based is inaccurate if you're talking about the general organization rather than the London one. But was ISM involved in monitoring of coalition
02:48:18 involved in monitoring of coalition forces in Iraq, or indeed doing anything in Iraq?
02:48:22 in Iraq? I don't know how. Um yeah, I can't imagine never conducted monitoring outside Palestine and Israel. not to my knowledge, and I can't imagine how. I mean, how would they have done it?
02:48:32 it? Um
02:48:33 Um I'm not sure they can really monitor the the IDF, right? What they can do at best is just witness, as I said, the occupation and the intimacies of that occupation be the checkpoints theft of
02:48:44 occupation be the checkpoints theft of water
02:48:45 water or or defending the growth of illegal settlements. ISM can do those things and it can report on it and it can I don't know witness homes being demolished in Jerusalem but it can't
02:48:57 demolished in Jerusalem but it can't witness
02:48:58 witness Thank you. Um Mr. Hastings in his witness statement UCPI 5035557 at paragraph 68.5 page 81 says, "My understanding of why I
02:49:09 page 81 says, "My understanding of why I was being tossed into this area was that it formed part of special branches long-term objectives. At the time following 9/11 special branch would have been required to examine its focus regarding Islamist inspired terrorism
02:49:23 regarding Islamist inspired terrorism and that was the reason why I was initially deployed into ISM." Um again
02:49:29 Um again what would you say if it was to be suggested now that the reporting on ISM generally or on you in particular was justified due to an association with Islamic extremism or Islamic terrorism?
02:49:45 I don't I don't I mean again I think the country and to a large extent after 9/11 but pre that we watched the war on terror and elements of that but
02:49:56 war on terror and elements of that but that's again this is Rob choosing to be
02:50:01 a hero, right? And you had absolutely no such associations or intentions. No. I mean he's literally DJing at my family's wedding. We're not a family that I don't know what what you can
02:50:12 that I don't know what what you can gather from that but it's not common for for practicing religious people to have DJs at weddings. Do you do you know? So he's he's immersed in that. Yeah.
02:50:21 Yeah. Do you know? If we look at page 230 of that document MPS0526935
02:50:29 it's the one we were looking at a moment ago.
02:50:32 ago. Um it it states the potential exists for individual members of the ISM to become involved in more extreme activity, particularly in the context of Islamic
02:50:44 particularly in the context of Islamic terrorism. Um was there, so far as you were concerned, any such potential to become involved in more extreme activity? No, definitely not. By you or anyone else in ISM?
02:50:57 By you or anyone else in ISM? I mean, I can't speak for everyone in ISM, but I just can't see how it was made up of white lovely people from around the world. A lot of people from Israel, as well as America and Japan and Korea.
02:51:09 America and Japan and Korea. Um it wasn't made up of many people of color. That that's one thing. Second is
02:51:15 Second is Um not me, I'm not religious. But but I shouldn't have to keep saying that in any context. I struggle with it, but I'm not religious. But either way, this is a fabrication of wrong.
02:51:27 this is a fabrication of wrong. And I think he's had a lot to justify what was what they're what they were doing.
02:51:31 doing. If we go back to page 228 of this document,
02:51:36 document, again, it says here, "ISM does, however, play a significant part in protests and demonstrations in the UK, and in common with other left-wing organizations has the potential for involvement in public
02:51:48 the potential for involvement in public disorder." Do you agree with that as a statement?
02:51:55 Uh I think that I can agree with part of it. In Palestine is a It does, however, play a significant part in the protests and demonstrations in the UK. I think it
02:52:07 demonstrations in the UK. I think it does play a role in supporting protests and demonstrations in the UK. Yeah, I I would I would agree with that. have the potential for involvement in public disorder. No.
02:52:15 No. So far as you are concerned. No.
02:52:16 No. If we look at page 230 again, then, please.
02:52:20 please. Uh in the first paragraph, just after the redaction, it says, "Although ISM are keen promoters of street protest as a means of highlighting the plight of Palestinians
02:52:32 highlighting the plight of Palestinians both in the UK and elsewhere. Its philosophy is essentially to do so by non-violent means. Presumably, you would agree with that statement? Yeah.
02:52:41 Yeah. Um
02:52:43 Um Continuing though in the first paragraph, it says the potential for events such as G8 on the one hand or an Islamic terrorist attack in the UK or against UK interests abroad on the other
02:52:54 against UK interests abroad on the other to act as a catalyst for disorder at ISM organized protest, however, is high. And then if we just look underneath the paragraph headed necessity, please.
02:53:05 paragraph headed necessity, please. It states this. It is considered necessary to continue with this deployment because the potential for public disorder where the ISM is present is considered high,
02:53:17 ISM is present is considered high, particularly in the context of external events and factors impacting on the Middle East. Um do you agree that ISM had the potential for involvement in public disorder at that time and that such
02:53:28 disorder at that time and that such potential was high? No.
02:53:32 No. And I think he's contradicting himself. Well, I don't even think he is. He's contradicting himself through that statement. Thank you. That could be taken down now, please.
02:53:44 Um I want to just look at uh travel, please. Um We touched upon um your trip to uh Libya so I uh and um
02:53:56 so I uh and um I've asked about that in terms of the nature of it as a personal family trip that um Rob Hastings reported on despite the fact he would have known that. So, I'm not going to to go over that again. But
02:54:08 not going to to go over that again. But in terms of other reporting on travel, um there's reporting um at MPS0062500 at tab nine.
02:54:17 tab nine. I don't think we need to go to it, but it says Atif Chaudry will be traveling to Scotland to participate in the events surrounding the G8. He has apparently rented a flat in Edinburgh for the
02:54:28 rented a flat in Edinburgh for the duration and this is a report dated the 28th of June 2005. Um, did you intend to travel to Scotland to attend the G8 summit? It was
02:54:38 It was and
02:54:39 and because it was make poverty history. Thousands of people went to to Edinburgh And and did you in fact The G8 summit was happening but it sounds like it's like I'm invited to the G8 and I'm not. Uh,
02:54:52 G8 and I'm not. Uh, we as friends and some of the friends you mentioned here did we did hire a flat. You know, it was pre-Airbnb which is a big deal but we lived I slept on the floor of that flat and I remember it
02:55:04 the floor of that flat and I remember it well because of that moment. But it was make poverty history the whole of the trip.
02:55:09 trip. to protest the G8 summit. Uh, it was in the context of poverty being
02:55:15 being you know, workable and changeable in this lifetime, you know? And the G8 is the is the other nations that have the most power and impact to do that. But
02:55:23 But but he's writing that as if So I've somehow got a clandestine entry into the G8 which I haven't and I
02:55:30 and I and I hired a flat to to do it. It's an odd way of describing what was actually happening. It's a sort of sensationalist way of making something sinister that isn't.
02:55:39 isn't. Yeah and again I think this is where he is really trying to justify a deployment that he can't. Um, MPS again I don't think we need to bring it up but MPS 0064259
02:55:52 bring it up but MPS 0064259 at tab 15 there's a report dated the 30th of October 2005 uh, reporting on you traveling to Palestine. Were you traveling to um, Palestine um, due to your work with
02:56:06 Palestine um, due to your work with Zaytoun
02:56:07 Zaytoun Yes.
02:56:07 Yes. time?
02:56:08 time? Uh, so again you would say a completely innocent um, Yeah.
02:56:12 Yeah. trip with no justification for reporting it.
02:56:15 it. I also want to touch on something here that I really believe that when I look back on these things, that Rob was not just reporting things to get for sensationalism and
02:56:26 things to get for sensationalism and justification of deployment, but I also think he was reporting things that would have gone to the state of Israel.
02:56:33 Israel. Um
02:56:34 Um because
02:56:36 because he was always driving people to the airport, which was seen as a helpful thing to do, but those people were always taken, you know, um even in that trip to Palestine.
02:56:47 Palestine. I had to be interviewed for 2 like 6 hours just to get and I had to go through and prove what bills of lading we used in Ashdod and how Zaytoun works and how we
02:56:58 Ashdod and how Zaytoun works and how we have to export our olive oil and dates and and nuts from an Israeli port. We have no choice. The only port that Palestine has is in the Gaza Strip. All these things are exhausting, but
02:57:10 All these things are exhausting, but they happen and I'm being asked, "Do you know why you're being interviewed in this way?" And my answer is, "No." Thank you. you're going through and this I think is where Rob is at. He's sending and I think Special Branch did the same,
02:57:22 think Special Branch did the same, sending information to the state of Israel, which is really again a waste of time. And you deal at various paragraphs of your witness statement on the level of
02:57:34 your witness statement on the level of intrusion in terms of the personal nature of reporting on you, your travel arrangements, your living arrangements, those of of your associates who were
02:57:47 those of of your associates who were friends or housemates or neighbors. Um and at paragraph 4.9, page 12 of your statement, you talk about how your mobile telephone number and contract
02:57:58 mobile telephone number and contract were reported, your employment details were reported, the fact that you were dyslexic and struggle with map reading was reported. There is a reporting and we don't need to bring it up, but at MPS
02:58:10 we don't need to bring it up, but at MPS 0062499,
02:58:12 0062499, tab B8 of the bundle, there's a report on you attending Glastonbury Festival with some friends living arrangements MPS 0063026
02:58:26 living arrangements MPS 0063026 at tab B10. Again, we don't need to bring it up, but it concerns your living arrangements again describing them as a collective which you say is inaccurate. But also
02:58:39 But also in various ways on your housemates. Um Again, we don't need to go to it, but MPS 0069659 at tab B43 for example.
02:58:52 at tab B43 for example. There's also reporting on your partner, your girlfriend at the time and your now wife and again we don't need to go to it, but MPS 0065732
02:59:03 it, but MPS 0065732 at tab B27 reports on your girlfriend's email address um and other personal details and there's also a report about her birthday party
02:59:15 also a report about her birthday party um in July 2007 at MPS 0075 095 and various other reporting on your housemates and associates. Um what would
02:59:29 housemates and associates. Um what would you like to say now in terms of your reaction to all of that reporting of of quite a personal nature um by HN18 at the time.
02:59:43 Yeah, it's very difficult to illustrate this succinctly, but I'm going to do my best. Is that All of this has taken a massive mental health toll on trust
02:59:54 on trust and confidence and looking back at lots of relationships. Uh that's friendships of of people that I think were they police? Were they police?
03:00:03 police? What was this? Do they How come they came and then disappeared? In terms of my friendships with my friends, yeah, they they're entitled as I should be
03:00:14 they're entitled as I should be to their privacy. And when they're spending time with me, they shouldn't be worrying about this stuff. Um and so all of this has taken a I know it's taken a mental health health toll
03:00:25 it's taken a mental health health toll on everybody that's been affected by this.
03:00:29 this. May I
03:00:31 May I still look at this stuff in incredulously that it happened. There are times when I have had to really
03:00:38 really yesterday being in the court was an example.
03:00:42 But where you're processing a level of guilt
03:00:46 guilt that had this not happened then the things that would have not happened to other people. Um yesterday's case was an example of that. It's
03:00:56 It's it leaves you with more than sadness.
03:01:01 The you're lost thinking how a a person could come into the world to do that.
03:01:07 that. But also how they could be justified by doing it because of the state has not only paid for them to do it but is encouraging them to do it.
03:01:21 And where does it leave you as a citizen?
03:01:25 Where does it leave you as a a father as well? I look at my own kids and what their stake in this life is. I recognizing that there were elements of
03:01:36 there were elements of real real mental harm and I'm really not saying that lightly.
03:01:42 I am somebody who was born in a space where mental harm toll took someone's life, you know, and I said that earlier. I look at this and I am broken by the
03:01:53 I look at this and I am broken by the languages
03:01:54 languages used by Maya particularly um
03:01:58 um and whilst I could look and create some distance and say I'm not responsible for that. And I know I'm not. I still cannot look at this without recognizing what toll
03:02:13 it has when I did nothing other than really bring really great olive oil into this country essentially and be part of witnessing something that Palestinians
03:02:25 witnessing something that Palestinians should not have to go through any more than Israeli citizens should have to go through
03:02:29 through and being part of a society that perpetrates the occupation. All these things are things that we ISM actively, democratically and rightly just as I've said already
03:02:41 just as I've said already civil rights movements across the world have done good things with to make a better world. In this space you're watching people being criminalized, spied upon physically and sexually hurt.
03:02:54 physically and sexually hurt. Mr. Hastings in his witness statement to the inquiry UCP I 5035557 at paragraph 169 pages 84 to 85
03:03:05 pages 84 to 85 states that he was to report as much information as possible on individuals associated with ISM. The purpose of providing minor details was to enable an intelligence picture to be built up over
03:03:16 intelligence picture to be built up over a period of time and that he therefore believed at the time that he had authority to report this sort of information and he goes on to say at paragraph 169.6 that he accepts he
03:03:29 at paragraph 169.6 that he accepts he had a close personal relationship with you. However, at the time he did not consider whether his reporting was unnecessarily invasive. What's your reaction to that now given
03:03:41 What's your reaction to that now given the level of intrusion into your life you've described? I generally believe that he was trying to frame something that would be perhaps in
03:03:52 perhaps in sensationalist words an Islamic militant that he something found and I think that he would have discovered that
03:04:02 he hasn't found that within 5 minutes. And I think he's spent a long time wasting taxpayers' money trying to prove something. How his conscious works on that, I don't
03:04:13 How his conscious works on that, I don't understand. Um but what do I feel about it? I feel really repulsed by it. But not just because it's not something that's in my behaviors or thought systems,
03:04:23 systems, but because it's had, as I said, such an impact on the mental health of my life and Maya's and everybody else, including the people who do great work working in
03:04:34 the people who do great work working in charity sectors in this country. Thank you. Um I just want to ask you um briefly about um the level of influence that H and 18, Robert Hastings, had uh in connection with ISM and ISM
03:04:47 uh in connection with ISM and ISM London. Um he, in his witness statement to the inquiry at paragraph 71, pages 43 to 44, says, "I actively sought to avoid directing decision-making during my
03:04:59 directing decision-making during my deployment and sought to align myself with the consensus." And at paragraph 122 on page 64, he says this, "Decision-making in ISM was by consensus. I had no position of
03:05:11 consensus. I had no position of influence in regard to the decision-making of the organization. My strategy was to follow the consensus driven by key personalities within the group." Now, accepting that your level
03:05:22 group." Now, accepting that your level of involvement by the time he arrived on the scene scene had greatly diminished, do you agree with those statements or not?
03:05:31 not? Or can't you say? Yeah, I can't really say. I mean, I I just think there's probably not more than two meetings where an ISM when I was in ISM London or at an ISM meeting London where he was at. But consensus decision-making
03:05:43 he was at. But consensus decision-making is largely a big part of it. But we're also seeing emails, right? Which have come forward where he's being a a provocateur. Where he's writing about, "Are we just
03:05:54 Where he's writing about, "Are we just going to sit on our butts or do something more militant?" This is coming from Rob.
03:05:58 from Rob. Yes. So, you think that he tried to influence the group in the direction of illegal action, essentially. And um actions where activists might risk getting arrested.
03:06:10 risk getting arrested. And yeah, and even hurt. I mean, our our public could have got hurt. The way he's writing, from what I've seen, it looks like he's he himself is trying to encourage more than disorder. This is actually behavior that could
03:06:21 This is actually behavior that could really physically hurt somebody. Yeah, if we could just look at one of those emails that you've referred to as it might be a helpful illustration. Um UCPI
03:06:30 UCPI 50038560,
03:06:33 50038560, please, at page 161.
03:06:43 And this is an email um
03:06:46 um from H and 18, uh Robert Hastings, to other members of uh ISM.
03:06:55 uh ISM. And just while it's being um brought up, I can perhaps uh set out the the quote. So, within the email, um he says, "Perhaps
03:07:06 within the email, um he says, "Perhaps the underlying issue here is what ISM is for and how it expects to operate here in the UK. Are people interested in engaging in accountable actions here, where of
03:07:17 accountable actions here, where of course they can be arrested with all the implications that may bring, or is it merely a vehicle to get peeps out to Palestine? My own view is that we could and should be doing much more here in
03:07:29 and should be doing much more here in the UK. There are enough targets worthy of our attention, and quite frankly, they are being left alone to continue without being directly challenged. Agrexco is a great example of this. It
03:07:41 Agrexco is a great example of this. It should be pressured as much as possible with all possible resources available. Perhaps this is something that could be discussed at a meeting." Is that an example of the type of thing you're referring to.
03:07:52 referring to. Yeah. I mean there he is encouraging people to do what sounds like physical disorder and and militancy. And that's not
03:08:04 you know, ISM isn't like I said, it's used to making consensus decision-making. It has to make risks on making sure that everybody is is is not in harm's way. Whoever they are, including workers from
03:08:15 Whoever they are, including workers from an event. But the ISM that I was in wasn't taking direct action at events or or even Israeli organizations. But regardless, in this email this is coming from Rob.
03:08:26 this is coming from Rob. Provo- provoking people into a space For some
03:11:44 Mhm.
03:15:34 Mhm.
03:19:24 Mhm.
03:19:54 See if there are any written questions. Is there going to be any re-examination? There may be just One short point. Exactly.
03:20:01 Exactly. Thank you, doctor.
03:26:15 Thank you, sir. So, there are no rule 10 questions, but I do just want to make a clarification in relation to two document references to clarify that they
03:26:26 to clarify that they were the reporting of HN118 and not HN18. And those are at MPS 0031940
03:26:38 And those are at MPS 0031940 at tab B3 of your bundle. So, there were two reports in relation to um
03:26:44 um that document reference. And the second one was MPS 029556 at tab B2. And two reports within that document
03:26:56 And two reports within that document were also HN118, not HN18.
03:27:01 not HN18. And so, I think you spotted one of them, but there was another one in relation to that document reference. I I I'm aware of what you just told me. I'm grateful. Um that's all from me, so there is one matter of re-examination.
03:27:13 there is one matter of re-examination. Yes.
03:27:14 Yes. Yes, just one short point. Mr. Chaudry, you are
03:27:19 you are it was put to you that there were a number of reports on Zaytoun by HN 18, and you were taken to one of them. And you've given evidence
03:27:31 And you've given evidence about how you believe it may have led to you being stopped for 6 hours on trip to Israel. Are there other happenings with
03:27:42 Israel. Are there other happenings with Zaytoun that you believe may have been affected by the reporting on Zaytoun? Thank you. Yeah, so for those who maybe don't know
03:27:53 Yeah, so for those who maybe don't know about Zaytoun, it's a fair trade olive oil company and selling dates and things. We're in every Oxfam shop in the country. Um you can get it there, support it. It's really good stuff. Um but look,
03:28:04 but look, in in truth, yeah, because we had shipments that were just smashed to pieces when they arrived.
03:28:11 arrived. You know, it's heartbreaking. People are raising money, supporting it. Um
03:28:16 Um giving us money from all over the world. But the first shipment, all the pallets were taken off, and it was broken. At one point, I think The Guardian newspaper,
03:28:27 newspaper, they wrote a really nice flattering piece about me saying the ethical oil baron, which was quite nice. But we also had the
03:28:35 had the the question that came up, is this the most ethical product in the world? And it came
03:28:39 it came in a big Guardian piece on it. Yeah.
03:28:41 Yeah. And the entire shipment, all of it got sent to Italy. If there's one country that doesn't need more olive oil, it's it's probably Italy. But in truth, you have to change a lot of pieces of
03:28:53 you have to change a lot of pieces of paper to do that. Yes.
03:28:54 Yes. When I'm going to Palestine to meet with farmers, I've got co-op supermarket with me. I've got folks who are from fair trade networks including parliamentarians. Yes.
03:29:05 Yes. And in that space I'm being abused at airports.
03:29:09 airports. And Mark, can you give us an example perhaps the the most egregious example of
03:29:13 of Um I was once
03:29:16 A strip searching is something that can happen and that's it you it goes with a thing that you just cope with. And did that happen to you? Yeah, definitely happened to me. I at the airport being strip searched on a runway. That's publicly humiliating.
03:29:29 runway. That's publicly humiliating. Uh Rob knew about that. I look back on it I think he may made it being being part of making that happen. Yes.
03:29:36 Yes. Um
03:29:37 Um There's times when you're being in a room and there are people asking you said do you in Israel where you're arriving I said not in Israel I'm actually going through Jordan and I remember the time when I'm being put aside into a room
03:29:49 aside into a room and Shin Bet which is an Israeli intelligence team which I discovered later on they're asking me do you know why you're here? Do you I said yeah to to to meet olive farmers. No, do you know
03:30:01 to meet olive farmers. No, do you know why you're in this room? I said no. How can I know that? Do you do you you have no idea why Shin Bet are recording you? I said again why would I know that? Yeah.
03:30:12 Yeah. And
03:30:13 And I guess what I'm trying to say is this is massive because Zaytoun is 21 years old. We're still despite the odds of so many things. We used to sell things in Gaza but since 2008 since the embargo in
03:30:24 Gaza but since 2008 since the embargo in Gaza
03:30:25 Gaza we haven't been able but we used to sell hand rolled women's from a women's co-op hand rolled couscous.
03:30:31 couscous. Um it was a called maftoul. It's really good. But we've not been able to because people are starving in Gaza but we cannot get food out of there anymore than ethically you should. Yeah.
03:30:39 Yeah. But Gazans should be able to trade. In the West Bank right now olive farmers have been doing this for thousands of years and through the work of Zaytoun we're able to support them. This is hard
03:30:50 we're able to support them. This is hard work but it's needed and it's facilitated and welcomed by Dfid. It's welcomed by the by the Foreign Office. It's It's really work that Parliamentarians in the fair trade
03:31:01 that Parliamentarians in the fair trade movement really look highly on. But despite that, there are things that I think Rob did in this investigation that really sabotaged the work of Zaytoun. And
03:31:12 And and the humiliation that comes with Thank you. being an Asian guy connected to it. And I'm one I'm proud to say I'm one of its founders. And I And it's it's an important thing to me. Thank you very much. That's all I ask.
03:31:24 May I thank you, like all other witnesses who've attended voluntarily as you have, to give evidence about your encounter with the undercover officer.
03:31:37 encounter with the undercover officer. All of this enables me, uh, I hope to get to the truth of what happened. And evidence of people such as yourself is essential help me to do that. I'm very grateful to
03:31:50 help me to do that. I'm very grateful to you for doing it. Thank you. May I ask
03:31:54 May I ask one one question, uh, uh, to which I I hope I know the answer. Have your
03:32:02 Have your troubles with Zaytoun stopped uh, uh, in recent years, uh, or do they still continue? Uh, uh, I mean, do you mean for families in Palestine?
03:32:13 in Palestine? No, no, no, I'm not not talking about I'm I'm I'm talking about your difficulties Oh, okay. So the business. Okay. It was so So, the business is still going. Yes.
03:32:22 Yes. It's a difficult business to do in any part of the world is to, you know, and it's a place that even the UN thought was not possible to be able to create Zaytoun. And And yet, here it is. The Fair Trade Foundation not believe it was going to be possible, and yet, here it
03:32:33 going to be possible, and yet, here it is.
03:32:34 is. So, that comes from the incredulous of, as we said right in the beginning, of a movement of people really caring about things. Myself, I haven't been to Palestine since 2010 because the last time going there was so emotionally
03:32:47 time going there was so emotionally harrowing. And I'm a little bit body conscious, but having to be stripped in a place has its toll on you. But knowing now with retrospect that Rob
03:32:58 knowing now with retrospect that Rob reported that it's it's it's wonderful. my question. I I had Yeah.
03:33:03 Yeah. I would like to go. I would really very much like to take my family there. They're older now to pick olives with the farmers just as we families that I've I've sort of grown up with me and meet them in person and my children meet
03:33:14 meet them in person and my children meet them.
03:33:14 them. I don't know if that's possible.
03:33:19 Again, thank you. I'm grateful. We will resume at 2:00 uh with the evidence of another uh
03:33:29 uh civilian witness, Mr. Nyland. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
03:34:59 Mhm.