Maya provides evidence regarding her early interactions and subsequent sexual relationship with Robert Hastings, detailing how they met through a housing cooperative and the nature of their initial encounters. She describes Hastings' aggressive and unsettling behavior, including inappropriate comments and a rapid escalation to a sexual relationship, while also revealing personal trauma she shared with him to prove her fidelity.
00:30:44 Good morning everybody. Today's proceedings are going to be uh live stream but by voice only. Uh those with mobile devices in the um hearing room behind the screen may use them to report
00:30:57 behind the screen may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. The event that they're reporting, they may not be used for recording. Yes.
00:31:09 not be used for recording. Yes. Stand please. If you like to repeat after me, please. I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm
00:31:20 declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. I'm going to address you as Maya which
00:31:32 I'm going to address you as Maya which is the name that you've uh adopted to ensure that your privacy is protected. Yes. Um, if there is any stage at which
00:31:43 Yes. Um, if there is any stage at which you want to stop uh or to pause, just say so and I will immediately stop or pause.
00:31:53 or pause. Uh, anything you want to assist you, please just ask. Okay?
00:31:58 Okay? And um, don't feel in the slightest bit embarrassed about it. I readily understand that it is not an easy experience for you. Thank you. Great.
00:32:08 Great. I too will be calling you Maya in these proceedings because you have anonymity. Maya, do you recall providing to the inquiry a witness statement dated the
00:32:19 inquiry a witness statement dated the 16th of May 2025? Yes.
00:32:23 Yes. Are you familiar with the contents of that statement? Yes.
00:32:26 Yes. And are the contents of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.
00:32:34 We'll start with how you came to be in the housing cooperative in South London.
00:32:46 The documents suggest Maya that you met Robert Hastings through someone that he was targeting called Aif Chowry. How did you knowif Chowry? Um, I
00:32:59 How did you knowif Chowry? Um, I actually knew him through uh an ex-boyfriend of mine. And when did you meet him roughly? Uh, possibly
00:33:11 Uh, possibly a few months before I think probably early 2005 or late 2004. Yeah.
00:33:22 2004. Yeah. How did you end up living next door to him in the housing cooperative? Um I
00:33:30 well I I became uh friends with him uh not very close in the beginning and um he became aware that I was looking for a
00:33:43 he became aware that I was looking for a place to stay. So he said there's a vacancy would you like to
00:33:48 like to yeah apply? Yeah.
00:33:51 Yeah. And your application was successful. Yeah. Um, Atif Chowry says this about the circumstances in which he came to move in. We don't need to bring it up, but his witness statement is paragraph 3.13
00:34:03 3.13 on page 8. And he says, "Maya moved into the house next door within the co-op around the summer of 2005. I knew her through mutual friends and discovered she had become homeless and needed somewhere to live. She was clearly quite
00:34:16 somewhere to live. She was clearly quite vulnerable about having sorry, she was clearly quite vulnerable having recently been homeless. She was young and a very kind and open person who would easily trust others.
00:34:28 trust others. Maya, is that an accurate description of your circumstances at the time you moved into the housing co-op? Yes, I was actually sneakily living in an office building that time before I moved into the co-op. Yeah.
00:34:41 moved into the co-op. Yeah. And would you agree you were vulnerable at that time? Yeah, I was homeless then, but not on the streets. I was sure.
00:34:47 sure. Yeah.
00:34:50 Yeah. Um, again just for the avoidance of doubt, this was a housing co-op. So not a commune, not a collective. No. No.
00:35:01 No. No. And just very briefly, can you tell us just what a co-op is? Like how it worked?
00:35:06 worked? Well, my understanding was that all the tenants have to have some uh share of responsibilities, different tasks in moving into the co-op. that um the rent
00:35:17 moving into the co-op. that um the rent late rates were low. But then uh in return for living in a place that accommodated us with such cheap rents was that we had to chip in
00:35:29 was that we had to chip in uh you know like somebody does the gardening, somebody becomes a secretary or something and that there'd be like monthly meetings where we could all be able to contribute and also make joint decisions. For example, if somebody needed a fridge or
00:35:42 example, if somebody needed a fridge or something and the funds would go to that. So that was my understanding of the co-op. So you helped manage Yes.
00:35:48 Yes. That entire place. Um you were living next door to Aif Chowry. What kind of relationship did you have with him? Um I saw him as an older brother figure.
00:36:01 Um I saw him as an older brother figure. So uh yeah I was able to confide in him on many things. I uh felt very protected by him. Um yeah because he he was you
00:36:15 by him. Um yeah because he he was you know he helped me you know to move into the cop it wasn't his decision it was but but uh yeah you know just having seen that I was vulnerable and having you know suggested that I could move
00:36:28 you know suggested that I could move there
00:36:29 there uh I was very grateful to him for that but also you know we had very good relationship in that we were able to uh share things as friends like you know love of comics for for example. Yeah.
00:36:46 Um there's no disagreement about this, but for the record, you weren't an activist, were you? No, I was not an activist or at all. No. Yeah.
00:36:56 No. Yeah. Uh so you attended no meetings, no protests. You were not involved in organizing meetings and protests. No, not in that sense. No. Um, we
00:37:09 No, not in that sense. No. Um, we understand from your witness statement that you did assist a Tif with two fundraisers. Yeah.
00:37:17 Yeah. Under the name Rage Against the Occupation in 2005 and 2006. Is that right?
00:37:24 right? Yes.
00:37:25 Yes. And the reason you helped him with those fundraisers is because at that time you were active in the promotion of Southeast and Southeast Asian art and culture in London.
00:37:36 culture in London. Yes.
00:37:43 Robert Hastings in his witness statement at paragraph 195 says this about your activism or lack of Maya was not an activist and my recollection is she only
00:37:54 activist and my recollection is she only ever came to one activist related event which was one at the rampart. My recollection is that she only attended because I was DJing.
00:38:06 Again, for the avoidance of doubt, the assertion that you only attended one activist related event would appear to be inaccurate. You actually attended
00:38:17 be inaccurate. You actually attended two. Is that right? In 2005 and 2006. Um, I'm a bit confused. So, uh, yeah. No, I only went to see him at the
00:38:28 No, I only went to see him at the rampart as in Yeah, I've I've attended another
00:38:33 another event as well where I think he was um Yeah, but so it was two two events. Two events. Don't don't worry too much. I We'll look at a little more detail
00:38:44 I We'll look at a little more detail as well. Yeah. Um when he says that you only attended because he was DJing. Yes.
00:38:50 Yes. Is that accurate? Yes. And was that the 2006 event or the 2005 event? Uh, these were in 2006. Yeah.
00:39:00 Yeah. I mean, the 2005 event is the one that where we met. Yeah. But that wasn't because he was DJing. That was through an Yeah. through helping out a band. Yeah. We'll look at the 2005 event now. Just
00:39:13 We'll look at the 2005 event now. Just briefly. Um, the first time you met is the
00:39:21 the 25 around the 21st of May 2005 at this Rage Against the Occupation fundraiser in 2005 at the Sahara Nights Club on Pentonville Road. Is that right?
00:39:33 Pentonville Road. Is that right? Yes.
00:39:35 Yes. And did you meet him actually at the event, Maya? I did. Uh, it's very vague. I was just told to pass a DJ a a CD Yeah.
00:39:45 Yeah. to put on the music for him and so but yeah just so I went there to just to the DJ booth and you know I said oh you put the CD on and that's it. Yeah.
00:39:55 Yeah. Yeah. That was the extent of it. Yeah.
00:39:58 Yeah. You say in your witness statement that you next met him in early 2006. This is paragraph 3.3 of your witness statement. M and at that point you'd moved into the
00:40:11 and at that point you'd moved into the housing co-op. Yes.
00:40:13 Yes. Um
00:40:14 Um can you please describe for us the incident
00:40:19 incident uh where you met him next when you were painting your kitchen? Um
00:40:24 Um yeah, I was painting my kitchen. And I was standing on the the kitchen counter cuz I'm a short person. And so uh yeah, I was trying to paint the ceilings walls
00:40:36 I was trying to paint the ceilings walls and he passed by and he just looked and he said, "Nice bum."
00:40:44 How did you feel when he said that? I was taken aback. I'd never heard anybody say that to me and I didn't really know what it implied. Like I was
00:40:55 really know what it implied. Like I was like, should I be disturbed about this? Is this a compliment? Is this a rude thing? Yeah. I was very confused. It was unsettling. So, yes.
00:41:05 yes. Fair.
00:41:07 Fair. When he said this, what, if anything, did you know about him? Did you recognize him? Uh, yeah. I think I recogn
00:41:19 DJ. Yeah. Is that the extent of what you knew about him that he was a DJ or did you know anything else? Nothing else. No. So, I understand that this was in early
00:41:30 So, I understand that this was in early 2006 that this happened.
00:41:35 Before your sexual relationship began, which I understand to be in summer 2006, but we'll come to that. How many times did you see him roughly in between this incident and when the relationship
00:41:46 incident and when the relationship began? Uh
00:41:48 began? Uh maybe three four times I think because just in passing you know like he'd wave from the window. Uh well you know if I
00:41:59 from the window. Uh well you know if I was in the kitchen and he was passing by then he would wave and uh yeah but just in fleeting passing. And he did uh one time come in for a cup
00:42:10 And he did uh one time come in for a cup of tea
00:42:11 of tea uh because he knocked and he asked if was in. And I said, "No, not yet. Really know." So I said, "Well, you might as well just come in for a tea." Because I'd sort of been familiar with his face then by then. Yeah.
00:42:23 then by then. Yeah. And did you know he was friendly with the teeth? Yes.
00:42:27 Yes. Um, so I think you've answered the question, but that's why you invited him in for a cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah. Because cuz by then I was like, "Okay, he's a good friend of the Tees and he's just always coming around
00:42:38 Tees and he's just always coming around to visit him and that's my I didn't even know he was an activist or or you know or anything like that." Yeah. Were you interested in him at all? No.
00:42:51 Can you describe for us what it was like when he came in for a cup of tea? What What did you talk about? Um
00:43:03 well I mean I think by that time there was a little bit of exchange already as in just you know hello hi and um I think
00:43:14 in just you know hello hi and um I think he
00:43:15 he yeah he just came in and he just asked questions like you know um have something like have you ever been with a white man or would you like to
00:43:27 with a white man or would you like to you know how does like would you ever get into a relationship with he was just asking me questions about my life right
00:43:34 right uh I wasn't very interested in his right
00:43:38 right then and he just asked me like oh yeah you know would you ever be with a white man and I thought that was a bit weird um and you know and and then when I I
00:43:51 um and you know and and then when I I declared to him that well you know my ex is white um he did a silent cheer here, which I thought was also a little weird. Um, yeah, cuz I remember him cheering
00:44:02 Um, yeah, cuz I remember him cheering silently and would you date an older man?
00:44:07 man? Uh, yeah. I mean, it wasn't very long, maybe 15 minutes or so. And I also remember then I think I must have teased him. I don't know whether it was that day or another time uh something about
00:44:20 day or another time uh something about him having blue eyes or so. You know, I just made some passing remark and then he just said, "Wait, no, my eyes aren't blue." So, you know, that's how much I hadn't really noticed him, right?
00:44:30 right? And he did say like, you know, you met me before, I think. So, um cuz I didn't even remember that he was the DJ that I had met in 2005. Um but yeah, he had reminded me that I
00:44:43 Um but yeah, he had reminded me that I had met him. Yeah. Um,
00:44:47 Um, I'll unpack that a little bit. Yeah.
00:44:49 Yeah. So, you invited him in for a cup of tea. You say he was only there for about 15 minutes.
00:44:55 minutes. That suggests he launched quite quickly into this line of questioning. Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And again, were you sitting down? Had
00:45:07 And again, were you sitting down? Had you made him a cup of tea when he started asking you these questions or Oh, yeah. I I was sat on the sofa. So, yeah. in the sit. We were both in the sitting room. Yeah.
00:45:17 Yeah. And his manner when he asked you these questions, was he asking them in a flirtatious manner, in a straightfaced, neutral manner? Uh,
00:45:28 Uh, a little bit excitable, if that makes sense. Yeah. From what I remember, cuz he wasn't just like calm and, you know, asking these questions slowly.
00:45:40 questions slowly. Yeah.
00:45:40 Yeah. Um, yeah. But then from that, you know, it just kind of then then when he was leaving is when I sort of felt like, oh, this guy might like me if he's asking
00:45:51 this guy might like me if he's asking these questions. Yeah. Well, that was going to be my question. So, he made it very clear that he was interested in you sexually. Is that accurate?
00:46:00 accurate? Uh, not then. I didn't think about sex at all. And I didn't think that I mean, he didn't come off to me in a seedy manner to be honest at that time. He didn't come across as if he was
00:46:12 time. He didn't come across as if he was interested in sex. No. But when he asked you if you would ever date a white man, for example, what did you make of that? Well, I made of it. Well, first of all,
00:46:25 Well, I made of it. Well, first of all, I thought it was really a strange question, but then what I made of it was that uh perhaps he was checking if I was single and available to date him, right?
00:46:36 right? Yeah.
00:46:37 Yeah. So, to that extent he to that extent. Yes. Yeah. He was making it clear that it was more than just a friendly perhaps. Yeah.
00:46:48 Yeah. When he asked you if you would ever date an older man again, what did you make of that?
00:46:53 that? Well, I made of it that he's probably asking about himself and that he was older than me. Did he tell you how old he was? Uh, no, not that time.
00:47:04 Uh, no, not that time. Did he ask you how old you were? I think so. Yeah, as far as I recall. But I'm not 100% accurate on that. And at that time you were around 26 years old.
00:47:15 years old. Yes.
00:47:24 Again, when he did the silent cheer when you said that you would date someone who was white, well that your ex-boyfriend was white, how did that make you feel?
00:47:36 how did that make you feel? Uh taken a back because I I just wondered whether that was a strange English mannerism or something. Yeah. Because I've not really witnessed
00:47:47 Yeah. Because I've not really witnessed anybody silently cheering before in my life. Yeah. So,
00:47:56 I understand from your witness statement that you told him that you'd only had one boyfriend. Is that accurate? Yes.
00:48:04 Yes. How did he respond to that particular piece of information? Oh, honestly, I don't recall that. Yeah.
00:48:13 Did you tell him anything more about You don't have to go into detail, don't worry, but about how long that relationship had been,
00:48:24 relationship had been, how serious it was. I don't think I went into that much detail. I think I might have talked more about my cultural background and heritage.
00:48:35 heritage. So is it fair to say that at this early stage you made him aware that you were not experienced in
00:48:46 that you were not experienced in relationships? Yes.
00:48:49 Yes. You think you made that clear? Yeah.
00:48:54 Did he tell you anything about his relationship status? No.
00:49:00 No. Did he tell you anything about his relationship history? No.
00:49:13 Looking now at the second rage against the occupation fundraiser in May 2006. Um you refer to this in your witness
00:49:25 Um you refer to this in your witness statement uh at paragraph 3.6 six. And
00:49:31 And you say that you were asked by Chowry to assist and that Robert Hastings offered to help with a sound system with sourcing a sound system and that you and
00:49:42 sourcing a sound system and that you and he drove to collect speakers from a business venue in the Caledonian road in Angel. Is that right? Yes.
00:49:53 I understand that that trip with him in the car to get the speakers was uneventful. Is that right? Yeah, it was quite uneventful. I mean, it was just little chitter chatter because I was more focused on making
00:50:04 because I was more focused on making sure the band was going to be okay with their sound system. Can you remember the nature of the chitter chatter at all or don't worry if not?
00:50:12 not? Uh, not really. Just more like, oh, you know, maybe the band will be late or whatever. Probably something like that. Yeah. It wasn't very personal. Yeah.
00:50:23 Yeah. It wasn't very personal. Yeah. That Yeah. Can you tell us what happened at the event later on that evening between the two of you? Yes. Uh so sometime during the event, he
00:50:37 Yes. Uh so sometime during the event, he pulled me to a wall and he crouched down and then he said, "So you can kiss me now?" And I just was like, "What?" I was very surprised.
00:50:50 I was very surprised. um very uh I felt very awkward, embarrassed. I felt flattered at the same time because I thought, "Oh, wow. This guy really does like me."
00:51:01 This guy really does like me." Um and
00:51:05 Um and uh yeah, and I remember telling him like, "No, I can't do this. I mean, it's nice you like me, but this is not my culture and my brothers are here. I mean, that just how could I do that?"
00:51:16 mean, that just how could I do that?" Yeah.
00:51:17 Yeah. Again, we'll unpack it a little bit. M before he did this, he pulled you towards the wall and walked backwards. What had you been doing? Were you talking to him? Were you dancing? Were you interacting with him at all?
00:51:29 you interacting with him at all? Uh, not that much. No, I I think I was just like busy walking around the different rooms sort of making sure uh you know, wondering if things are in
00:51:40 you know, wondering if things are in place for uh the band that I was managing. And uh yeah, so it wasn't like we had gone for a drink together or you
00:51:51 we had gone for a drink together or you know been chatting and hanging out together. No. So it came out of the blue. It did do come out the blue from what I recall. Yeah. Um you've explained why you felt embarrassed. Yes.
00:52:03 embarrassed. Yes. Um it was against your background and the way you've been brought up. Mhm. Um, you say in your witness statement also that you felt
00:52:14 also that you felt insulted. Is that accurate? Yes. Well, it is because I mean uh I felt, you know, when he
00:52:25 felt, you know, when he like I I don't really know this guy. And then even if he likes me, I mean, you know, if he did like me, wouldn't there be some kind of courtship or something before even a kiss? Yeah. So I felt that
00:52:39 before even a kiss? Yeah. So I felt that was also you know I was both insulted and flattered. It was a bit of me because it was nice to you know have him sort of declare Yeah. that interest in me but at the same time I felt that was just you know out of
00:52:51 I felt that was just you know out of order just to if you like you know how do you just kiss a stranger almost. Yeah.
00:52:57 Yeah. Um you didn't kiss him back. No.
00:53:00 No. And you explained why you didn't want to kiss him back. Yeah.
00:53:03 Yeah. How did he react to that? Oh, he just sort of laughed it off and he said, "Oh, you know, it's nothing." You know, it's going to be fine. And I said, "No, I'm sorry." Uh, yeah. So, he persisted. He tried to persuade
00:53:16 So, he persisted. He tried to persuade you.
00:53:16 you. He tried to persuade me, but not too long. You know, I was just like, "No." I said, "Okay." You know, I think he realized that I could like him back. So, maybe that's why he didn't pursue
00:53:27 maybe that's why he didn't pursue further, but he didn't uh insist. No, he wasn't forceful. He did try but but he did try and laugh it off. He did try to convince me but like I think after a minute or two that
00:53:39 like I think after a minute or two that was just shut down. And
00:53:43 And how did you part company on that evening? On what terms did you part? Um
00:53:51 Um I don't recall. I don't even recall if he gave me a lift back. I don't think so. Um,
00:54:00 honestly, it's very fake for Yeah, I can't remember. If you can't remember, that's fine. Yeah, it was it cuz then I just got busy with the band, you know. Yeah.
00:54:09 Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:11 Yeah. You describe in your witness statement, Maya, after this incident, a growing attraction towards Robert Hastings. Is that right? Yes.
00:54:22 Yes. And why do you think your attraction towards him grew after that incident? Oh, cuz he liked me.
00:54:34 It It was flattering. Yeah.
00:54:36 Yeah. So, yeah.
00:54:38 So, yeah. So, to some extent it made you feel good about yourself. Yes.
00:54:46 Slight shift here. I just would like to bring up please. It's the one report from Robert Hastings in which you're named and the reference is MPS0065807.
00:54:58 It's a tab B1. Mhm.
00:55:00 Mhm. It's a report dated the 29th of the 5th 2006.
00:55:06 2006. So
00:55:09 So would it be right Mer to say that this report is dated around the time that this was this happened with Robert Hastings just after the rage against the occupation event
00:55:20 occupation event just before the sexual relationship began.
00:55:23 began. Yes.
00:55:25 Yes. Um
00:55:26 Um there's a fleeting mention of you on page two please. Paragraph two. If we could just bring that up.
00:55:37 Um so paragraph two it reads Maya is a close sorry actually the paragraph above that and the one sorry it's two and three. Um Mayer is a close associate of
00:55:48 three. Um Mayer is a close associate of the activist Atif Chowry. Mia lives in address in the same housing cooperative as Chowry. Maya claims to be 26 years of age born in privacy. She holds a current
00:56:00 age born in privacy. She holds a current privacy passport. Thank you. We can take that down. So that's the extent of the reporting which mentions you, Maya, that the inquiries obtained. Um, how do you feel
00:56:13 inquiries obtained. Um, how do you feel about the fact that Robert Hastings reported on you around this time that he was
00:56:20 was making sexual advances towards you? Um, very uncomfortable now. uh you know because then it feels like if it was
00:56:31 because then it feels like if it was genuine then why would he even report me at that time? So it just feels that even that flirtation was very fake.
00:56:43 that flirtation was very fake. Um describing you also as a close associate of uh Aif Chowry. Would you like to comment on that? Do you feel that's accurate? Um
00:56:57 I I I get I I don't know. I mean associate can be quite a loaded term especially now in hindsight. Um so it does make me feel as if
00:57:11 does make me feel as if you know first of all my my name's there as an associate. Well, Aif had so many associates that were far closer to him in that sense, you know, whether it was in terms
00:57:23 sense, you know, whether it was in terms of uh his profession, his activism, um his personal life, I was his neighbor and and yes, a sister, you know, more
00:57:34 and and yes, a sister, you know, more like a sister, but why associate is uh something that concerns me. Yeah.
00:57:44 early June 2006. Mayer, I understand that your relationship with Robert Hastings became sexual. I just want to explore with you the circumstances in which that happened.
00:57:58 circumstances in which that happened. I understand from your witness statement at paragraph 4.1 that approximately two weeks after the rage against the occupation event in May 21st of May 2006
00:58:11 occupation event in May 21st of May 2006 um he invited you to his flat is that accurate
00:58:14 accurate yes
00:58:16 yes sorry just I just something it's a very small detail but I just want to clarify in your witness statement you say that the rage against the occupation event was on the 19th of May I looked it up on the internet it said
00:58:27 I looked it up on the internet it said it was the 21st of May. Do you think that sounds right? Um, I don't remember the date. We just look at the poster. Yeah,
00:58:34 Yeah, because I remember you said 21st and then I did see the night. No, I should have clarified that because it isn't actually what you say on your witness, Damon, but it was that event. Yes.
00:58:44 Yes. Um,
00:58:45 Um, can you please set out for us how he came to invite you round to his flat? Um, yeah. He uh what? It wasn't just out the blue. I
00:58:58 uh what? It wasn't just out the blue. I mean, he
00:58:59 mean, he uh
00:59:02 uh I think he'd helped he had returned the speakers or something and uh
00:59:10 uh you know and and I I know that he did I I could you know um and by then it was clear that he liked me. Uh and then he's I don't know why I
00:59:24 me. Uh and then he's I don't know why I went to his flat. I think maybe but because I I remember something like come around and then you can thank me properly is what I remember him saying but I don't remember whether he meant like thank me
00:59:35 remember whether he meant like thank me properly when uh I thought like maybe we're going to go for dinner or something you know right yeah well in your witness statement at paragraph 4.1 you say you texted him to say thank you and then he responded in a
00:59:47 say thank you and then he responded in a text saying what you've just said you've preempted my next question you said that you interpreted his comment, why don't you come around so I can thank
00:59:59 why don't you come around so I can thank you properly as maybe he might take you out for dinner. Is that right? Yeah.
01:00:02 Yeah. Is that the extent of what you thought? Yes.
01:00:08 How did you feel when you got that message?
01:00:11 message? Uh excited. I thought like, yeah, we're going to go out on dates.
01:00:18 Did he
01:00:22 go into any more detail about what you might do or was it simply that? Just come over. Yeah, just that. That's all it was. Yeah.
01:00:32 When you went over there, had it entered your mind that you might end up sleeping with him or not? No. I mean, it entered my mind that um we would kiss possibly, but not that I
01:00:44 we would kiss possibly, but not that I would end up uh sleeping with him. What happened when you arrived? Uh, I went up Can I Sorry, what time was this? What
01:00:55 Can I Sorry, what time was this? What time of day roughly? Oh, uh, sometime in the afternoon. I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't at night. Yeah, it was still daylight, but yeah, not early morning. And I remember going
01:01:07 not early morning. And I remember going up the stairs and he was ironing and um yeah, I remember it was quite a cramped flat.
01:01:18 it was quite a cramped flat. Uh I don't know. Do you need more detail on Sorry.
01:01:21 on Sorry. Should I give more details? Just um No, don't worry. So this just to be clear also, this is the flat in Holay.
01:01:27 Holay. Yes.
01:01:28 Yes. Not the one on Roman Road. So it's his first cover flat. Um, and when you turned up, can you just help us with how you ended up sleeping with him? If you could just set out the chain of
01:01:39 you could just set out the chain of events.
01:01:40 events. Yeah. No, I I remember going up the stairs. He was ironing. We were talking. He, you know, I remarked about the things I
01:01:51 you know, I remarked about the things I saw in the house because he had a Halib Berry poster up and then I said like, you know, teenager or something. So, there was a bit of that banter. And then he
01:02:03 And then he um
01:02:05 um he also made himself a smoothie with eggshells in it. And I thought that was disgusting. And he was just talking about fitness. And I think, you know, it was just getting
01:02:16 think, you know, it was just getting closer. And then he Yeah. Then then he um you know, pulled me to his room, started kissing me. Uh I was very flattered and then one thing led to another. And so yeah,
01:02:29 another. And so yeah, hormones got the best of me that time in a sense. Um, yeah. So he initiated. Yes.
01:02:34 Yes. And did he make you a drink? Give you any food?
01:02:40 any food? Uh, I don't recall that. No. Maybe an orange juice, but I don't I really don't recall. Yeah. Can you help us with roughly how soon after you turned up you
01:02:51 after you turned up you ended up in bed? Maybe 15 20 minutes. It was quite fast. Yeah.
01:02:58 Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:01 Yeah. And
01:03:04 And I mean it appears to follow from what you said M but again just for the avoidance of doubt you were receptive to his initiating. Yes. And I was curious. I was inexperienced. So I thought oh so this
01:03:15 inexperienced. So I thought oh so this is what it's like. Yeah.
01:03:22 After you and he had had sex, how did you feel? Did you feel good about it? Did you feel ambivalent? I felt uh good about it that time. Yeah.
01:03:37 I felt uh good about it that time. Yeah. You refer in your witness statement at paragraph 4.2, to page seven uh to a conversation that you had which I understand happened in the aftermath of
01:03:50 understand happened in the aftermath of having sex with him for the first time. Can you help us with the nature of that conversation? Yeah. I mean I remember he uh drove me home and it was the evening
01:04:04 drove me home and it was the evening then. Y
01:04:06 then. Y um and he
01:04:11 um and he h
01:04:12 h and you know so I was just trying to process all of this because it was the first time I ever slept with somebody so soon.
01:04:21 soon. Yeah. And I thought, well, so this is what grown-ups do, you know. And I uh thought, well, now that I'm out here in
01:04:33 thought, well, now that I'm out here in the world trying to experiment and learn about myself and learn new things, maybe it's moving a bit too fast. That uh I just wanted to let him know that just
01:04:45 just wanted to let him know that just because I had slept with him, it didn't necessarily mean that we were going to be a couple. Um I wanted to so I said like I would like to take time to get to
01:04:56 like I would like to take time to get to know different people. Y
01:04:59 Y and thank you for the experience. Um yeah and then he got a bit angry. What did he say? Uh he talked about how he doesn't like to share
01:05:11 to share and he uh you know he made it seem that uh
01:05:19 uh having sex with me was such a big deal a declaration of his love in a sense you know for him just to be like I don't share you know like as if like well I gave my body to you so you know how dare
01:05:32 gave my body to you so you know how dare you like
01:05:34 you like try
01:05:36 try go around and meet other men sort of is he didn't say that but that's the sense that I got and and and he said how you know that in this world uh 99% of the men are bad
01:05:52 this world uh 99% of the men are bad he's the you know very few people are good and he's the 1% um and and he just seemed quite upset and that upset me
01:06:04 and that upset me why did Did that upset you? Because
01:06:07 Because it made me feel as if I'd done something wrong. Uh it made me feel that I um that he was uh suspecting me for being a
01:06:20 that he was uh suspecting me for being a promiscuous person. So, if I understand your evidence correctly, it seems that he was implying that he was a steadfast, loyal person
01:06:33 that he was a steadfast, loyal person and that you were perhaps less so.
01:06:39 less so. Yeah,
01:06:40 Yeah, possibly he is less. Yeah. So, he didn't say I was, but his upset it's is as if as if he feared that I would be this, right?
01:06:49 right? Uh,
01:06:51 Uh, yeah. Would it be fair to say that he was slightly outraged or seemed outraged by the suggestion that you might not want to enter into a exclusive
01:07:03 want to enter into a exclusive relationship? Yes.
01:07:10 When he got angry and he said these things and implied these things, how did you respond to him? Um,
01:07:21 Um, I don't recall because I find it very difficult to articulate myself when I'm very upset in front of somebody. And so I just uh told him like it's not
01:07:34 And so I just uh told him like it's not like that. And um I don't really recall much of what I said, but I do recall going home and crying
01:07:46 and crying um because I thought like, oh, how could somebody think that of me and uh and then he came around later that night as
01:07:57 then he came around later that night as well?
01:07:58 well? Oh, did he that same night? So, just to get the timeline, I think so. as far as I recall. It could have been that night or the night after, but I just remember being very upset and
01:08:09 but I just remember being very upset and then uh yeah. So,
01:08:13 So, you went round to his flat in the afternoon. He drove you home. How long afterwards was that roughly? Um
01:08:22 Um I mean, I think we were probably in his flat for
01:08:28 flat for an hour or two. So, I'm guessing that I might have gone there maybe like 4:00 p.m. or something, like more late afternoon. And I uh because I remember it was more like, you know, it wasn't
01:08:39 it was more like, you know, it wasn't late night, but it was early evening. Yeah.
01:08:42 Yeah. When we came home and to my my place and uh Yeah. And then I remember being upset and then I remember sending him texts saying like um you know that this is all
01:08:55 saying like um you know that this is all new something along the lines about how this is new for me. Yeah.
01:08:59 Yeah. And I would never be unfaithful. I just you know wanted to know people and and then it was much maybe around 11:00 or so because I remember it was late at
01:09:10 so because I remember it was late at night when he said he'll come back so that we could talk it out. Right. Yeah. And then it's your recollection that he came back over to your house.
01:09:21 came back over to your house. Yes.
01:09:23 Yes. And did he stay the night? No, he didn't enter the house. We said like, "Okay, let's just talk outside." Because I had my uh I had a flatmate. I didn't want her to hear anything. So, we went outside
01:09:36 to hear anything. So, we went outside the co-op to a wall nearby. Yeah.
01:09:38 Yeah. Uh it was so very low wall. And we sat there and I talked to him about like how uh how I had, you know, how these things were new, how
01:09:50 you know, how these things were new, how I had been my first sexual, you know, not only that I had a first uh only one boyfriend before, but how my first sexual
01:10:01 sexual encounter was rape. So
01:10:06 So I explained to him how I was raped when I was 19.
01:10:12 and how it affected me and how um
01:10:17 um I had um sorry no please don't just take as much time as you needed.
01:10:32 I explained that um that you know fidelity was a very important thing to me and that I'm not somebody that goes around and sleeps with people and I
01:10:43 around and sleeps with people and I explained that having been accused of being sort of impure before was uh reason that led me to self harm and I had a huge scar on my leg which is still
01:10:56 had a huge scar on my leg which is still visible today and I told him how I had cut myself simply through that accusation um so that if we were together that he
01:11:08 um so that if we were together that he could trust me and I would never be unavailable and I'm not a promiscuous person.
01:11:13 person. Yeah.
01:11:14 Yeah. And how did he respond when you told him these things? He seemed very sympathetic. How did he seem sympathetic? Well, he was just quiet and he's like, "Okay, I understand." And you know, so
01:11:27 "Okay, I understand." And you know, so yeah.
01:11:29 yeah. Did he?
01:11:30 Did he? But he didn't hug me though. No. No.
01:11:33 No. And did he acknowledge that he had hurt you by accusing you or at least implying that you might be promiscuous?
01:11:45 promiscuous? Uh, no. I don't remember him acknowledging that. I just remember him listening. But, you know, he didn't say like, "Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that to you or I'm sorry that you know,
01:11:57 that to you or I'm sorry that you know, I've upset you or anything like that." He's just like, "Okay." More like, "Here, I'm listening to you. I hear you. You can trust me." Yeah.
01:12:06 Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:07 Yeah. Um, you referred to the scar on your leg.
01:12:10 leg. Yes.
01:12:11 Yes. Did you or did he say anything about that scar when you slept with him that first time? No.
01:12:19 No. No. We'll come to that, don't worry. Um,
01:12:26 when you parted company on that evening after you'd had that conversation again, what terms did you part on? Um, more reassured terms. I just felt
01:12:37 Um, more reassured terms. I just felt like, okay, well, I can try and be good and, you know, he really likes me and, you know, I'll uh I I'll be a good girl and be faithful and,
01:12:49 I'll be a good girl and be faithful and, you know, Yeah. And
01:12:52 And again, I'm sorry if it seems like an obvious question, but what had given you the impression that he really liked you? Uh
01:13:01 well cuz he sat there and listened to me and you know he said yeah well you know I'll see you again. And so for me it implied that he was no longer suspicious
01:13:13 implied that he was no longer suspicious about me.
01:13:15 about me. Yeah.
01:13:23 Did you use contraception over the course of your sexual relationship in 2006 and 2007 with in the beginning? Uh and then afterwards uh I told him
01:13:37 Uh and then afterwards uh I told him that
01:13:38 that um
01:13:40 um uh yeah then I took the pill. Right.
01:13:44 Right. Yeah. So again, just to be clear, so you started using condoms, but then you went on the pill during the relationship, or were you
01:13:53 were you I think I was already on the pill then. Yeah, I don't uh I think I was on the pill
01:14:00 pill because actually to to be honest, my my memory for that is quite hazy when I started the pill. But I know that I was on the pill because my GP had suggested
01:14:12 on the pill because my GP had suggested that I get on it. Uh, don't worry. Yeah, don't divulge anything about your medical information. My medical Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't on the pill for sexual purposes. Let's just say
01:14:23 pill for sexual purposes. Let's just say that.
01:14:23 that. I understand. Yeah.
01:14:25 Yeah. Um, Robert Hastings in his witness statement, again, we don't need to bring it up, but it's paragraph 192.2 says this. He says, "We did not discuss the issue of using contraception. Maya
01:14:37 the issue of using contraception. Maya never asked me about it, and I assumed she was taking precautions." Yeah.
01:14:44 Yeah. I mean, the f even the first uh time we had sex, uh he said like he needed to put on his Jimmy hat, so I didn't know what that meant, right?
01:14:54 right? And then he explained that that's a a slang term for condom. Yeah.
01:15:01 Yeah. Yes. that phrase pops up in one of the emails later on which we'll come to. After
01:15:09 After the first sexual encounter, Maya, how often did you see one another? Uh,
01:15:16 Uh, possibly. I mean, I think it was more like once a week, then it led to two, three times a week, two times a week, like that. Yeah. Yeah.
01:15:25 Yeah. And when you saw each other, would you have sex every time you saw each other or not?
01:15:29 or not? Pretty much. Yes. And did this happen mostly at your flat, mostly at his flat, a combination of the two?
01:15:38 two? Uh, my flat.
01:15:43 Why was that? I don't know. Um, he just never invited me around to his flat again. Um, and he
01:15:54 me around to his flat again. Um, and he would be like, "Oh, I'm coming around." you know, most of the times, uh, I didn't even really invite him, right?
01:16:01 right? As in he would be like, "Oh, I'm in the area. I'm coming around." And, "Are you home?" And then I'd invite him to my house. Yeah. And then, yeah.
01:16:16 So, you again, you've preempted my next question, which was when you did meet up,
01:16:21 up, how that came about. So I understand from your evidence that it wasn't generally pre-arranged far in advance. It was quite ad hoc. Is that right? Very ad hoc to be honest. Yes. Yeah.
01:16:34 Very ad hoc to be honest. Yes. Yeah. So you never quite know sorry. You never quite knew when you'd be seeing him. Is that right? Yes. It wasn't like, oh, you know, let's meet up in two weeks or even, you know, are you free this weekend? Let's meet up
01:16:46 are you free this weekend? Let's meet up this weekend. It was more like, hi, I'm I'm around. uh is is what it seemed to be most of the time.
01:16:54 the time. And how would he communicate that to you?
01:16:57 you? By text message. What sort of a time would he text you letting you know he was around? Um
01:17:05 Um evenings.
01:17:07 evenings. He would text me in the evenings. He would not, you know, I I don't really recall many texting, you know, in the morning like, "Are you free later on for dinner or are you free tonight?"
01:17:19 dinner or are you free tonight?" It was more like hi you know I'll be in the area in I'll be passing by in a couple of hours or I'll be passing by uh are you home and yeah and most of the
01:17:30 are you home and yeah and most of the times it was very quick as in you know he would say like at 10 say you you know maybe 10:00 or something like that and he'd be like oh
01:17:41 something like that and he'd be like oh are you around? I'm like yeah you are you free yeah okay I'll come around and then he's at the door in 15 minutes. Yeah.
01:17:48 Yeah. Um, so
01:17:52 he didn't I mean I appreciate he did check some time in advance but not very far in advance. Not not very much notice. Um, half the time he Well, I wouldn't say half the time. I can't really recall the
01:18:06 time. I can't really recall the how many times was like that, but you know there were there were occurrences where he'd be like, "Hi, I'm outside. Look outside your window." Yeah, we'll we'll come to that. Um, you
01:18:17 Yeah, we'll we'll come to that. Um, you also refer in your witness statement to receiving texts really very late. Yes.
01:18:23 Yes. Is that accurate? Yes.
01:18:25 Yes. So, what time would he sometimes text? uh between uh I'd say between 10 to 1:00 a.m. So 10:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.
01:18:37 So is it fair to say and it seems to be the case from what you've said that your meetups are always on his terms essentially. He was the one who
01:18:49 who designated the time, the place. You didn't get much say in it. Yeah. I Yeah. And you know my understanding was that you know he had a very busy job that his job didn't have
01:19:02 very busy job that his job didn't have regular hours which is why it was very difficult for him to plan or for ourselves to plan because even if I said like are you free this weekend you know a job might just come up on the day of
01:19:13 a job might just come up on the day of the weekend. Yeah.
01:19:15 Yeah. Okay. So he sought to Does it follow from that that you did say to him why are you always just texting me on the hoof? Did you challenge him? Uh, no. But after some time I did get upset and I
01:19:28 after some time I did get upset and I challenged him by email. Yeah, we'll we'll look at one of these emails. Actually, if we could please bring up uh 38 UCPI 38191,
01:19:39 bring up uh 38 UCPI 38191, page 10. It's tab A2. This is an email that you sent Robert Hastings Maya on the 24th of September,
01:19:50 Hastings Maya on the 24th of September, 2006. So, it's page 10, paragraph two. So, you'd been in a relationship with him for a few months at this stage.
01:20:01 him for a few months at this stage. Um,
01:20:03 Um, and it appears in this email, this isn't the first email you sent him where you're setting out how you feel, but it's an email where you're communicating to him
01:20:11 to him some of your issues with the way that the relationship he's conducting the relationship. I'll read this paragraph to you. You write, "It is frustrating when you can't
01:20:22 write, "It is frustrating when you can't give me straight answers about it when I next get to see you. Do I just wait until you show up out of the blue? Am I supposed to tell everyone that you are oh so busy and have no idea what to say when they tell me, "Well, your man seems
01:20:34 when they tell me, "Well, your man seems to make enough time to go to his meetings and demonstrations. How come he doesn't make time to see you?" I don't know, but I would like to believe there are good reasons. There are so many things you do or mostly that you don't
01:20:45 things you do or mostly that you don't do that is very easy for many people to doubt your feelings towards me. And that can drive me nuts because the cards seem to be blatantly facing me that you just don't give a [ __ ] That's what hurts most. You act like you don't give a
01:20:57 most. You act like you don't give a [ __ ] You don't reply to calls. You say you love me. And don't think it might be a little nice to ask, "Hey, when we go out, well, you don't need to ask. I'm practically always ready for you. You
01:21:08 practically always ready for you. You have my keys. You can come in the house whenever you want and I can be there for you." Whatever. It goes on and on and on. And while I cannot be throwing the blame on you because I know that my old habits of naivity and thoughtlessness
01:21:19 habits of naivity and thoughtlessness have also given you plenty of reason to doubt me. I have tried to analyze them. I cannot justify most things. But at least I hope my diary helps you to make sense of some things. I don't want a
01:21:30 sense of some things. I don't want a diary from you, but when you do things that seems utterly senseless and thoughtless to me, at least taking time to talk to you or see you will help me understand and make sense of some of the things you do.
01:21:42 things you do. Now, there's a lot there and we'll explore some of the topics that arise through that in due course, but focusing just now on this issue of him turning up unannounced. Maya, um, you refer in this
01:21:56 unannounced. Maya, um, you refer in this to him having your keys. Can you help us with how that came about? Um, I don't remember when I gave him the keys. I think it might have been
01:22:11 some time when he said he was going to see me but he was going next door and it was getting late or something and I said you know what like just take a take the extra keys and then you
01:22:23 take a take the extra keys and then you can just come in when you want because uh what would happen is time to time he would come over but then he would go to a's house right and then he would end up uh you know
01:22:35 and then he would end up uh you know having some meeting and I was just not interested in any of that activist meeting then. Yeah.
01:22:39 Yeah. So,
01:22:41 So, you know, it could just drag on and then I didn't know when he would finish and when he would come in and, you know, just like waiting for hours just I just thought I'd just take the keys. So, he had his own set. He gave him a spare set.
01:22:53 spare set. And as far as you know, did he make use of his spare set of keys? Would he let himself in that? No,
01:22:58 No, he didn't. Yeah. As far as as far as I as far as you know. Yeah.
01:23:06 I think also because you know I had a flatmate so maybe he would scare her or something is my reasoning. So even though he might have come after a meeting and he had he would just let me know that he was free and then
01:23:18 know that he was free and then you know I finished my meeting next door sort of fun. He wouldn't just let himself in. Yeah. In those circumstances.
01:23:26 You've told us that he one of the reasons he gave for behaving in this way for just turning up was his busy job. Did he ever acknowledge that it was
01:23:37 Did he ever acknowledge that it was quite an inconsiderate way to behave or not?
01:23:42 not? No. No. I I don't remember him ever sort of acknowledging that more that I should be more understanding.
01:23:52 You referred Maya to receiving a text saying, "Look out of your window." And you talk about this in your witness statement at paragraph 4.5.
01:24:04 statement at paragraph 4.5. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that? Did that happen on one occasion only? More than once? More than once. How many times roughly?
01:24:15 Four, five, maybe maximum five. It wasn't all the time. Yeah. What time would you receive these texts? Roughly what time of day or night? like 1:00 a.m.
01:24:27 1:00 a.m. Would you be asleep when you got these texts?
01:24:30 texts? Most of the time. So, they'd wake you up? They would wake me up. Yes. Or I'd just be like reading in bed, but I' i'd be in bed by then. Yeah. And so, would you look out the window?
01:24:42 And so, would you look out the window? Yes.
01:24:43 Yes. And would he be there? Yes.
01:24:46 Yes. Right. Just outside the window. No, cuz I was I was on the first floor so I could look out and then he had parked his car and then he'd wave and How did you feel about him doing this?
01:24:58 How did you feel about him doing this? Um,
01:25:00 Um, I
01:25:02 I I Well, back then I thought that uh it was romantic and spontaneous. But then I got sick of it as you can see
01:25:13 But then I got sick of it as you can see in the letter. Yeah. Yeah. We'll come to that. Yeah. Um, how do you feel about it now? Creepy.
01:25:26 You also refer me in your witness statement to an incident in which Robert Hastings reproached you for showing photographs to a male friend. I just
01:25:37 photographs to a male friend. I just like to look at that incident now. Can you tell us what happened on that occasion?
01:25:43 occasion? Um, yeah. Uh, I didn't know where Robert was, but a friend of mine, uh, a male friend of
01:25:54 friend of mine, uh, a male friend of mine had,
01:25:56 mine had, um, come to visit me at the house. Yeah.
01:25:59 Yeah. And we were in the sitting room downstairs. Um,
01:26:05 Um, and the way our co-op is is people can, you know, if you're by the car park side, then you can see us from the sitting room, but not from the front side, cuz that's the kitchen. And so, we
01:26:17 side, cuz that's the kitchen. And so, we were just um I was just showing him photo albums. We had those things in those days, you know, these uh and it's very he was from
01:26:28 know, these uh and it's very he was from my culture. So, it was very normal in our community when people come around then you show your family photos and that's my brother, that's my sister like that. So, we were
01:26:39 that's my sister like that. So, we were doing that and then um and then I got a text later saying, "Oh, you never show your photos to me." And I thought, well, what was he doing
01:26:51 thought, well, what was he doing watching me from the window, but he made it uh feel as if I had done something wrong? You know, the way that he that text that's the way that's how I
01:27:03 text that's the way that's how I received it. And I just wondered, well, why didn't you come and say hello and say hello to my friend and get to know him?
01:27:10 him? Yeah.
01:27:10 Yeah. Yeah. You refer to this in your emails. I'm going to take you to those just to we can see your contemporaneous Yeah. record of how you felt. Um, if we could bring up please UCPI 38191,
01:27:25 could bring up please UCPI 38191, page three, penultimate paragraph, please. It's tab A2, sir. This is the first email that you exhibit, Maya, and I'm I'm not sure,
01:27:37 you exhibit, Maya, and I'm I'm not sure, but is it right that that's the first email you sent Rob Hastings, in which you set out in some detail your feelings. It's dated the 31st of August 2006.
01:27:49 2006. Uh, right. Don't worry if you can't remember, but it's the first one that you in the in the log exhibit of all your communications. I start then. Yes. Yeah. Um,
01:28:01 Um, the Right. So, just for context, this is a long email where you set out how you feel about various things that he's doing, the way he's conducting the relationship. Uh, in this section of the
01:28:14 relationship. Uh, in this section of the email, you've cut and pasted an extract from a letter that you wrote to a friend about the relationship to try and make him understand again how you feel. Um,
01:28:26 Um, I just want to look at the bit where it says first week and then second week. So, this is what you've written to your friend, but which you're also communicating to Rob Hastings. First week, you're saying you've had a roller coaster of a week. It's been an
01:28:39 roller coaster of a week. It's been an emotional Sorry. The bottom of the previous paragraph says, "It's been an emotional [ __ ] roller coaster of last three weeks for me." First week, Rob got irrationally jealous of me showing my portfolio to my new
01:28:51 of me showing my portfolio to my new best privacy guy, mate. Second week, I bloody get a text on a Sunday evening after a convo asking me if I've been [ __ ] or even intimate with anyone else from Rob since we got
01:29:02 with anyone else from Rob since we got together.
01:29:03 together. What the hell? That really hurt and pissed me off. Again, we're going to look at the accusations of infidelity in due course. Just looking at that first week, got irrationally jealous of you showing your
01:29:15 irrationally jealous of you showing your portfolio. Is that the same incident with the photo albums? That's the same thing.
01:29:18 thing. Yeah, I showed him my art portfolio as well.
01:29:21 well. So, it happened around this time. So, sort of three weeks in advance of the 31st of August, beginning of Augustish. Um,
01:29:30 Um, I'd like to bring up another email, please, in which I think you refer to this incident. Uh this is again 38191. It's page 43 the bottom of paragraph 2. Now we're
01:29:41 the bottom of paragraph 2. Now we're leaping ahead in time a bit Mayer. So this is a email that you sent to Robert Hastings on the 5th of March 2007.
01:29:52 Um so the bottom of paragraph two you've written, I couldn't function for a few days when you saw me bloody show photos to a friend. You can spy on my house all
01:30:03 to a friend. You can spy on my house all you like and interrogate everyone who knows me and you will know I don't bring men into my room. So again, is that the same incident? Yes.
01:30:13 Yes. So if I understand your evidence in these emails correctly, he spied on you. So he looked at you through the window and then got angry with you for
01:30:24 and then got angry with you for interacting with a male friend in an entirely innocent anodine way. Yes.
01:30:32 Yes. I mean, you've set out here how it makes you feel, but again, just for the avoidance of doubt, how did you feel at the time? It says here you couldn't function for a couple of days. Can you help us with what that entailed? uh just
01:30:43 help us with what that entailed? uh just a lot of crying and a lot of hurt and confusion because um what happened that day was that Rob was out
01:30:55 happened that day was that Rob was out on some demo or some some activist activity and uh my one of my flatmates was also there. So,
01:31:07 was also there. So, um I remember not only getting that text, but then my flatmate uh coming home and saying, "Oh, Rob gave me a ride home." And and so, you know,
01:31:21 me a ride home." And and so, you know, feeling very upset that why didn't he come in to say hello if he'd not only he had come in through the window, but my flatmate had come in and you know that it's it was a very
01:31:33 you know that it's it was a very innocent situation. And I I I know that when I would try and call back to explain like what that was
01:31:44 call back to explain like what that was or who that was, then just Rob would not pick up the phone. And so that would upset me because it would make it really made me feel that he really thought I was going to cheat
01:31:55 he really thought I was going to cheat on him.
01:31:57 on him. Um Yeah. And I was weeping a lot. Yeah.
01:32:01 Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:02 Yeah. Um,
01:32:05 Um, I just want to take you now just to a couple of references in his emails where he appears to refer to him standing outside looking in the window, but I want to clarify if that was your understanding. Um, if we could
01:32:17 was your understanding. Um, if we could bring up please again 38191 page 12, it's tab A2. This is an email from him sent on the 26th of September
01:32:30 from him sent on the 26th of September 2006. the last two lines where he says, "I want to say good night and tell you that your angel is looking after you after you still. But who will look after
01:32:42 after you still. But who will look after Gabriel's tears?" Rob, I'm just going to bring up another email before I ask you about that. Um,
01:32:51 Um, it's the same document. It's page 67, please.
01:32:58 please. And
01:33:00 And this is an email. So, we're jumping ahead in time again. This is something he sent you on the 17th of March, 2009. So, after the first relationship has ended,
01:33:11 ended, uh top of the page, he writes this to you. He says, "Have you ever wondered about the story of how Gabriel visited Muhammad to reveal the will of God or the Quran? It has always struck me that literature has always concentrated on
01:33:23 literature has always concentrated on the issue of Muhammad and the revelation as apparently revealed or imparted to him. But no one appears to have ever considered Gabriel and how an angel might have felt regarding the task given
01:33:34 might have felt regarding the task given to them. Angels, do they have free will or does God have knowledge of everything? The stars that shine on me shine on you too. And I have watched your window as an angel should unseen
01:33:46 your window as an angel should unseen and unknown. Uh, first of all, Maya, he appears to be casting himself in the role of a benign angel. Is that fair? Do you
01:33:59 a benign angel. Is that fair? Do you think a fair description of what he appears to be doing? I think that's a bit charitable as well because I think not just a benign angel. It seems like he's considered himself to
01:34:10 It seems like he's considered himself to be Gabriel, you know, the archangel. Yeah, the archangel. Yeah. Um,
01:34:19 but it does seem that he's presenting this act of looking at you through a window as something
01:34:30 an act of love. Yes.
01:34:34 Yes. How did you feel at the time when you got this second message? Oh, upset. uh because he had already
01:34:48 uh because he had already uh to my understanding left London, right?
01:34:52 right? And
01:34:53 And um it made me wonder whether he had passed by and watched me y
01:35:01 y in the subsequent years through the window. And it upset me that one, he didn't come in to say hello if he did. and also very unsettled that if he were
01:35:13 and also very unsettled that if he were watching me through the window, why, you know, as an angel should, but you know, it's a bit creepy. How do you feel now that you know who he really is?
01:35:24 really is? Even more unsettled. Yeah.
01:35:30 Moving on to a slightly different topic now, Maya. Um, this is his comments on your ethnicity.
01:35:41 this is his comments on your ethnicity. You refer in your witness statement at paragraph 4.7 to Robert Hasting expressing views uh regarding the physical attractiveness of white women.
01:35:54 physical attractiveness of white women. Can you help us with the sorts of things he would say? Oh, that he doesn't date white women. He would be disparaging. you'd say like, "Oh, blondes, yuck." And things like
01:36:05 "Oh, blondes, yuck." And things like that in front of me. Um, right.
01:36:08 right. And I just felt that was just totally unnecessary. Um, back then, I mean, I have to flip between how I felt back then, how I feel
01:36:19 between how I felt back then, how I feel now, cuz now I just feel that was a racial fetish, but back then it was just very confusing why he would keep disparaging white women. And and I did ask him I said,
01:36:32 women. And and I did ask him I said, "Well, you know, I I remember even one time asking him, "What do you uh who who was your celebrity crush when you were young?" And he said, "It was this lady
01:36:43 young?" And he said, "It was this lady in a film called The Name of the Rose." Yeah.
01:36:46 Yeah. And I said, "Well, she's white." And then he said, "Oh, no, she's Italian. That's different." And so it just really confused me. Um why he kept belittling white women.
01:36:58 Um why he kept belittling white women. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm going to just take you to a couple of examples in the correspondence. Uh if we could bring up Yes, it's UCPI
01:37:09 Uh if we could bring up Yes, it's UCPI 38191.
01:37:11 38191. It's page 34. It's tab A2. This is an email that he sent you in January 2007. It's just a glancing. It's a brief extract,
01:37:24 a brief extract, but where he says is the second paragraph on that page, just a little way down, but where he says, "But I want you to know that there isn't anyone else involved here. I haven't suddenly decided to run off with an Aryan
01:37:36 decided to run off with an Aryan goddess. Does such a thing exist?" Nah. In order to make my mom happy. So, is it fair to say that's an example of this? The suggestion being there's no such
01:37:47 The suggestion being there's no such thing as a goddess who's a white woman because they're unattractive. Yeah.
01:37:53 Yeah. Um just one more example. Um if we could bring up same document please, but page 20 No, apologies, not the same document. It's UCPI 38192.
01:38:05 Uh page 23 as tab A3.
01:38:11 These are the I think they're Skype messages. Is that correct? Are they Skype messages that have been converted into messenger messengers messages? If you It's just come up now, Mer on your
01:38:22 you It's just come up now, Mer on your screen where they're presented in this way.
01:38:25 way. Um
01:38:26 Um I think at that time these were messenger messages. What happened is I then joined the messenger to Skype. Yeah.
01:38:34 Yeah. So some are as Skype screenshots and some are the transcripts that I was able to extract from the messenger. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Thank you. um eight lines up he's talking here just again
01:38:47 lines up he's talking here just again for context about having gone to see a female
01:38:51 female doctor
01:38:54 doctor and he says so it's yeah it just the that's exactly it um so this is on the so this again jumping ahead in time the 2nd of October 2014
01:39:05 2nd of October 2014 talking of this doctor he said she said to me what is your favorite meal and I said leg of lamb she said yes I like to have a portion of lamb to which I replied no I eat the entire leg spiced
01:39:17 replied no I eat the entire leg spiced with rice and then he says bloody white women no idea so this would appear to be an example of what you referred to as his disparaging white women generally
01:39:31 his disparaging white women generally yeah it was very confusing because I was not around I'd never grown up around people that spoke that way uh about
01:39:42 uh about white people or any other race and also given that um keeping the privacy details intact but I do also have a lot of white people in my family as well.
01:39:54 of white people in my family as well. Yeah.
01:39:54 Yeah. So it just uh yeah like it was just just kind of crude language to me. Yeah. Um, again, we'll come to it in due
01:40:06 Yeah. Um, again, we'll come to it in due course, but it's clear that he complimented you in relation to your physical appearance. Um, did he ever show any what I mean may or may not at the time
01:40:19 what I mean may or may not at the time have seemed to be genuine curiosity in your cultural background? Uh,
01:40:27 not that much to be honest. a little bit bits and pieces, but we didn't really uh talk so much about my culture as we did other subjects.
01:40:39 other subjects. Yeah. I mean even um
01:40:44 um the only times you know the times that I recall him talking about cultures more as if we were like planning names for children or things like that but not really like oh how do you know you say
01:40:56 really like oh how do you know you say this in your c which you know in other relationships that I've had um I've had more questions about my culture and the interest in where I come from but uh not to that degree with him
01:41:10 from but uh not to that degree with him unless it had to do with dating white men or something like that. You know what that's the kind of thing he would talk to you about? Yeah. Like you know what what would your family think if I if I was you know you
01:41:22 family think if I if I was you know you know being with a foreigner or things like that. And you know I would again repeatedly say I'm of mixed heritage with white family. So
01:41:30 So yeah.
01:41:30 yeah. Yeah.
01:41:32 Yeah. Um looking now at his attitude to class Maya particularly in relation to women. Um, you refer in your witness statement at paragraph 9.2 to his having said to
01:41:45 at paragraph 9.2 to his having said to you pjorative things about the activists with whom he mixed and in relation to their class. Can you help us with the kind of things he'd say? Oh, yeah. He would uh well, he presented himself as being very white workingass
01:41:58 himself as being very white workingass and that most of the activists were all middle class. You know, sort of the whole champagne socialist stereotype. Sure. And you know when he would uh maybe talk about people in a
01:42:11 would uh maybe talk about people in a squat or you know having attended a squat he'll be like oh these are all just you know uh white working not white like white middle-class kids that can just go back home you know they've got
01:42:22 just go back home you know they've got the privilege to squat or do these different activities. If you're real workingass you don't even have time to be an activist. Right. Um,
01:42:32 Um, so if I understand your evidence correctly, he felt that that their activism was a sort of affectation. Yes. He felt that they were almost like cosplaying in a sense that they were
01:42:44 cosplaying in a sense that they were just that these activists were, you know, uh, actually had very privileged backgrounds, which he didn't. and uh you know and and yeah they could afford to
01:42:59 know and and yeah they could afford to you know go to different countries for example for their activism things like that. Yeah. I'd just like to bring up something that I think may be relevant
01:43:10 something that I think may be relevant to this. Again it's 38192 tab A3 page 43 please. And it's again the transcripts that we were looking at.
01:43:22 the transcripts that we were looking at. Um if we could go to 151 2014 at 1917 16. So exactly there we are. Um
01:43:38 okay this is a little bit I'll take you through it and then I've got some questions on it which cover a couple of topics. So if it gets confusing Maya, please just let me know
01:43:49 please just let me know and I'll try and take it more slowly. Um,
01:43:52 Um, this reads, "Can I ask you something? What did privacy tell you about me?" Really? A teeth told me different. What did he say? No. And then you say, "Yep,
01:44:05 did he say? No. And then you say, "Yep, he said you had a thing for her that you fancied her." First of all, what's a little bit confusing is it seems like there's some of the conversation missing. It seems like he's responding
01:44:16 missing. It seems like he's responding to things you're saying. Can you help us with what's going on there? Is that right?
01:44:20 right? Uh I mean first of all the nature of the transcripts was the way that I they got downloaded is that um actually there should be like corresponding part but then what they did is they just
01:44:33 part but then what they did is they just put all the conversations. So that's why there's bits missing there and then my side. Now I can't really recall that response uh that conversation but I can only think of two different people
01:44:45 only think of two different people uh that he may have been referring to because I spoke to both of them. Let me explore just the rest of this conversation. So sorry if we could just carry on
01:44:55 carry on just bring up the bit that follows on from that just to the end of the page. Um yes just from can I ask you something to the end of the page. Thank you. Um, so you said, "Yep, he said you had a
01:45:07 Um, so you said, "Yep, he said you had a thing for her, that you fancied her." And then Robert says, "That fat [ __ ] needs a slap from me. [ __ ] me." No, a teeth needs a slap. You know, he told me that you liked him. Yes, try.
01:45:20 he told me that you liked him. Yes, try. That just made me want to beat the [ __ ] out of him in caps. How again from Robert. Okay, fine. We don't need to go into that now. Um, what
01:45:31 don't need to go into that now. Um, what I want to ask you uh about this is that it seems that again I'm going to take you don't don't feel you have to cover it all now because I'm
01:45:42 you have to cover it all now because I'm going to take you to another bit just before the break. But I think that the privacy person here is Aif Chowry's flatmate, female flatmate.
01:45:53 flatmate, female flatmate. Yes.
01:45:54 Yes. Does that help you? Yes.
01:45:56 Yes. Um, if we could go on to page 44, please. the following page
01:46:04 um just from the top of the page. So you say anyway, so yeah, P never said you had a thing for her or anything like that. She was just like that bastard is making you cry. That's about it. Then
01:46:16 making you cry. That's about it. Then Robert says, P, that same individual had a thing for me. You say, oh well, compared to P, she was a bit of a player. Robert P, another person was a
01:46:27 player. Robert P, another person was a [ __ ] and she knew it. Um, you say he's lovely but weak, kind of like privacy, another individual. Then he says exactly. And then he says a
01:46:40 Then he says exactly. And then he says a middleclass [ __ ] Um,
01:46:49 first of all, we can take that down now, please. Um, what is going on here? Without revealing anyone's names, obviously, um, if I understand this correctly,
01:47:01 um, if I understand this correctly, please tell me if I've got this wrong. Is this Atif Chowry telling you that Robert Harrison told that Robert Harrison liked Aif's female flatmate?
01:47:13 Harrison liked Aif's female flatmate? No, it was more uh, okay, so there were two women uh, two other women. So, Aif did tell me that
01:47:27 did tell me that uh there was a rumor that uh Robert may have fancied his female flatmate,
01:47:36 flatmate, right?
01:47:37 right? But I think in the context of uh Robert telling him that he fancied somebody, it wasn't the female flabby, it was my female neighbor.
01:47:48 it was my female neighbor. Right. Okay. I understand. And is that what Robert Hastings appears to be objecting to? Yes.
01:47:55 Yes. Um,
01:47:57 Um, was it your impression that he was objecting so forcefully and in such sort of violent terms as regards charging because he was saying it was untrue? Yes.
01:48:10 Yes. Um, don't again no names please. M, but when he's calling someone a middleclass [ __ ]
01:48:17 [ __ ] can you recall who he's referring to? Is this one of these two women? Yeah, I think he's referring to his neighbor who had a boyfriend then. His neighbor. Well, my I mean a Tif and my neighbor.
01:48:29 Well, my I mean a Tif and my neighbor. We were all in the in the co-op. So, uh referring to my neighbor who had a partner, right?
01:48:36 right? Well, well, we had a boyfriend then uh as the middle class [ __ ] and not a team's female flatmates. Right. I understand. And again, what did you make of this comment at the time? his calling her a
01:48:48 at the time? his calling her a middle-class [ __ ] Uh, quite rude. Yeah, because I mean I didn't think there was any need to call names for
01:49:00 there was any need to call names for somebody
01:49:01 somebody who had been so nice to me and who at all times had never seemed to have had a fight with Rob or anything. you know. Uh
01:49:14 fight with Rob or anything. you know. Uh yeah, I think but it also came across to me, you know, I really didn't like that language, but it just came across to me that maybe that's his white working-class language, if that makes sense. Yeah.
01:49:25 sense. Yeah. You know, where there's a lot of expletives involved in common parlance. Yeah.
01:49:31 Yeah. Um
01:49:32 Um was this something he did more than once? I express antipathy towards middleclass women. Yes.
01:49:42 Yes. in those terms. Uh
01:49:47 well, middle class people, not just women in particular. White women definitely he was disparaging, but in a more physical sense. Yeah.
01:49:57 Yeah. But he just hated the middle class is how he came across as. Right. That was the impression he gave you.
01:50:04 you. Yes.
01:50:09 Right. We'll have a break soon. And I'm just going to do another fairly short topic.
01:50:16 topic. Um,
01:50:17 Um, looking at the impression of his character that Robert Hastings gave you, um, we understand that when you met him, he was posing as a committed member of
01:50:31 he was posing as a committed member of the International Solidarity Movement. Um you refer in your witness statement and in your evidence um to him criticizing others for their lack of
01:50:43 criticizing others for their lack of commitment to the cause. Did you infer from that that he was very committed to the cause? Yes.
01:50:49 Yes. Um
01:50:51 Um what was the basis aside from things he may have said? Was there anything he did that led you to believe that he was committed? Well, because he seemed to
01:51:02 committed? Well, because he seemed to talk about going to every demo to going to every uh meeting and not only that, going above and beyond driving people around
01:51:11 around uh that were activists for activities like driving them to the demo or maybe meeting some other activists like that. Yeah.
01:51:19 Yeah. Did he talk to you about Palestine, the Palestinian cause? Uh not in details. Uh he he just you know one um
01:51:32 actually in our conversations he barely talked about Palestine right
01:51:36 right uh he just you know he showed that he was committed and then uh and uh but you know he didn't you know we didn't have in-depth conversations as to like you know history of Palestine or
01:51:49 to like you know history of Palestine or what as you would with other activists right or why he felt passionately about the He just he just said that it's just wrong and that you know that the Israeli occupation was wrong
01:52:01 occupation was wrong and that you know um it doesn't take a genius to know what's right sort of things that that it was self-explanatory which is why he didn't need to explain
01:52:12 which is why he didn't need to explain to me about his uh views on Palestine. Yeah. Um, did he ever say anything to you about why he wasn't going to travel to Palestine like
01:52:23 wasn't going to travel to Palestine like many others in the ISM? Uh, yes. I mean part of it was he said that uh you know sometime like traveling to Palestine in a sense was just again
01:52:35 to Palestine in a sense was just again he kind of put it at as a sort of um uh an occupation of privileged middle class who can afford to go right
01:52:45 right to Palestine and you know a bit like volunteerism. Yeah.
01:52:51 Yeah. Yeah.
01:52:54 Yeah. What impact, if any, did this presentation of himself as this committed activist have on you and your regard for him? I was very impressed because, you know, I I believe that, you
01:53:08 because, you know, I I believe that, you know, I'm very uh I admire activists. So, you know, for people taking time to commit themselves to whatever cause that they believe is just. Um, so I had never
01:53:23 they believe is just. Um, so I had never really encountered people like that before in my life. Yeah.
01:53:28 Yeah. And I just want to bring up just one example again contemporaneous in which you refer to this. It's 38191. It's tab 2 page 26 please the second
01:53:39 It's tab 2 page 26 please the second paragraph.
01:53:44 And you say this about him. Um,
01:53:54 you Yeah. So, second sentence of that paragraph. You are by far one of the most intelligent people I know, and I admire your ability to discern. I admire your sense of conviction. I think you
01:54:06 your sense of conviction. I think you know the meaning of what real knowledge is. Of all the many things I admire about you, I admire your mind and the way you know it is linked to your heart. That intelligence is also about ethics and values.
01:54:18 and values. So is that a fair reflection of what you felt at the time? Yeah.
01:54:23 Yeah. So I'm aware of the time. Yes. Um we always break now for 15 minutes. Um partly to let you have a break, but also for the transcribers who uh have quite a
01:54:35 for the transcribers who uh have quite a hard time and need need a rest. We'll resume in 15 minutes if you're ready to do so then. Yes.
02:13:01 Maya, looking now at another aspect of the way that Robert Hastings presented himself to you. Mhm. We can see from the emails, we'll look at this in more detail in due course,
02:13:12 at this in more detail in due course, but that he often wrote to you in quite flowery
02:13:16 flowery language.
02:13:18 language. Did he speak to you using that kind of language?
02:13:22 language? At times, yes, he did. He um a mixture, you know, he would try and um
02:13:35 speak if he was,
02:13:40 for want of better word, black, if that makes sense. Like he would just, you know,
02:13:45 know, come out with, you know, as if he was like a big fan of soul music or something, you know, you know, kind of the sort of language as if
02:13:56 know, kind of the sort of language as if he was
02:13:57 he was um he would switch between that. So as you know, you know, maybe he fancied himself to be like I don't know uh
02:14:09 I don't know uh some soul singer or something and right um and then and then he would start like quoting Shakespeare uh a houseman you know some of the
02:14:22 uh a houseman you know some of the romantic poets um Yates that sort of stuff. Yeah. What did he say to you about
02:14:34 why he did this in terms of what he what his attitude was to poetry and literature? Oh no, that he was a big fan. He presented himself as an autodidact. He
02:14:46 presented himself as an autodidact. He uh you know he said that he had never had any formal proper education that he left school when he was like 15 16 you know he never did A levels. Um, and so I
02:14:59 know he never did A levels. Um, and so I was very impressed with his what seemed like encyclopedic knowledge of Shakespeare. I wouldn't really know better. So he could have said anything and I would have believed him right
02:15:10 right on that front because I wasn't that I I knew a bit of poetry. I was more into modern poetry, you know, modernists, Elliot, that sort of stuff. So um yeah,
02:15:22 Elliot, that sort of stuff. So um yeah, so he he would present himself as being uh you know somebody with a huge thirst for knowledge and so how he really like that was he just that he was an avid reader.
02:15:35 just that he was an avid reader. Um now that you know who he really is, do you think that was genuine or do you think that was part of his activist persona that he had created? I'm not too sure. I mean I think his
02:15:46 I'm not too sure. I mean I think his love of Shakespeare must be genuine but I don't know whether he was white working class um and whether he developed that love uh from just some
02:15:57 developed that love uh from just some curiosity
02:15:59 curiosity uh which was out of the ordinary from his what he said was his upbringing because he didn't say that he had role models. I mean there are you know it's not like white workingass people
02:16:12 it's not like white workingass people are not into Shakespeare you know it's not that it's just that he didn't have you know like some uncle or grandfather or somebody to uh sh you know that pass that love
02:16:24 that love yeah on to him was he aware that you yourself without revealing in detail what you did or do but that you were a creative person Yes.
02:16:37 but that you were a creative person Yes. Do you think or to what extent if at all do you think that because you're a creative person because you're interested in the arts that this aspect of his personality that he presented to you that made him more appealing to you?
02:16:50 you that made him more appealing to you? Uh yes. Yeah. Yeah. I would add both uh not just knowledge of Shakespeare but also classical music. So he
02:17:01 classical music. So he because he he was aware also that you liked classical music. No, I I I wasn't into classical music but he just like kind of made himself you know as if he was a classical music buff. So yeah.
02:17:13 buff. So yeah. Yes. Again there's a reference to that in an email which we will come to. Um to what extent if at all did his use of this poetic language and his reference to Shakespeare and
02:17:26 and his reference to Shakespeare and literature give you the impression that he was a sensitive man? very much. So I I really thought that you know if you
02:17:37 you know if you like poetry you're a sensitive soul. If you like classical music you uh are sensitive. Yeah. Um and again to what
02:17:48 sensitive. Yeah. Um and again to what extent if at all did it give you the impression that this was not a shallow man. This is quite a profound soul. Did it give you that impression? Yes.
02:17:59 Yes. Just a tiny factual confused point. Um, Maya, in your witness statement, uh, paragraph 2, we don't need to bring it up, but you refer
02:18:11 don't need to bring it up, but you refer to him telling you that he was a graduate of Burkebeck, but there are quite a few references in the correspondence where he refers to himself as not being a graduate. Can you
02:18:22 himself as not being a graduate. Can you help us with that? Yes. He said that he uh you know because he studied him by himself. Yeah. That he was able to
02:18:34 That he was able to do like a sort of night course or some evening courses at Burkebeck that he you know that uh Burkebeck University was able to like he didn't have to go to uni on a regular basis that a bit like open
02:18:46 on a regular basis that a bit like open university or something. Yeah. so that he could be able to get a degree at Burkebeck. And that impressed me even more that even without you know going
02:18:57 more that even without you know going leaving school so early that you know you can because people can you know people do. So it really impressed me that he was uh you know really wanted to learn so badly.
02:19:07 badly. Sure.
02:19:08 Sure. Um that he did put himself to university. Yeah. When he refers to himself as not being a graduate that's not quite accurate. Is that fair to say?
02:19:19 that fair to say? Yes.
02:19:22 Looking now at Declarations of Love, did Robert Hastings tell you that he loved you? Yes.
02:19:31 Yes. How far into the relationship did he first say that? Um,
02:19:36 Um, I think quite early on. Uh,
02:19:42 Uh, maybe two months, I'm guessing. Yeah. Can you help us Mayer with the circumstances in which he said this? Well, I mean it was always in the
02:19:53 Well, I mean it was always in the bedroom,
02:19:53 bedroom, right?
02:19:55 right? Because we didn't, you know, have long walks in the park or some romantic moment where suddenly, you know, somebody declares their love. It would tend to just um
02:20:07 tend to just um it wasn't even like a special moment event, you know, it just like, oh, I love you, you know. Yeah. is how he would say that to me. And I'm sorry to ask this question. Was it actually during sex?
02:20:18 it actually during sex? Um,
02:20:20 Um, yeah.
02:20:22 yeah. Did you say it back to him? Oh, he would ask me to say it back to him.
02:20:27 him. Did he do that right from the off as in once he started saying it, he said, "Tell me you love me." Yes.
02:20:34 Yes. How did you feel about Well, first of all, how did you feel about him telling you he loved you during sex? Um, I mean, at first I just thought, well, you know,
02:20:45 at first I just thought, well, you know, cuz we think that it's not the easiest thing to say, so that it must have like maybe he was just holding it back and then it just came out, you know, in the moment. So, it was flattering
02:20:57 it was flattering and
02:20:58 and uh
02:21:00 uh but yeah, it upset me that it was just during sex. Sure, we'll come to that. How did you feel about him asking you to say it back to him? very awkward. Very awkward
02:21:11 to him? very awkward. Very awkward because I just felt like it just wasn't the appropriate, you know, love is a sacred thing. And to ask me to tell him that I loved him during sex, it
02:21:23 tell him that I loved him during sex, it just felt a bit sacriiggious. Would you say it back? Well, yeah, cuz he was insistent. Uh, so I did to please him, but it, you
02:21:35 Uh, so I did to please him, but it, you know, it took a while. Sure. Yeah. Well, you mean it took a while for you to feel that you could say it back, even just to please him? Yeah.
02:21:42 Yeah. When you did say it back, when you did start saying it back, did you feel like you loved him or was it purely to please him?
02:21:48 him? It was more purely to please him. Did you fall in love with him? I did.
02:21:55 I did. Can you help us with roughly when that was?
02:21:58 was? Um,
02:22:03 you know, I can't recall. I think it just grew. Yeah, don't worry. Again, we you mentioned it in the emails. Um,
02:22:13 Um, now looking specifically at the fact that he would tell you he loved you during sexual intercourse. If we could bring up, please UCPI 38191, it's tab A2,
02:22:25 it's tab A2, page 2, paragraph 2. This is that first email, Maya, that you sent to him on the 31st of August, 2006. Uh, page two, paragraph two. And you
02:22:37 Uh, page two, paragraph two. And you appear to be referring to the fact of his not saying it outside the bedroom. Outside the bedroom. I still haven't heard you say that, as in, I love you. And you didn't say it the last last night I saw you either. It's
02:22:49 last last night I saw you either. It's never even appeared in a single text message. Nothing like the simple sappy things a couple may text each other like, "How is your day? Hope you're well. Thinking of you, lots of love." If
02:23:00 well. Thinking of you, lots of love." If you think all of this is so below the belt to tell you that between us the word love seems to be only bandied about in a bedroom, then I challenge you to find the messages that you've sent me like that. Sending me a text message on
02:23:11 like that. Sending me a text message on Sunday night to ask me if I'm okay after the [ __ ] you put me through the week before does not make things okay. We don't need to look at the rest of it. Just in relation to this point,
02:23:22 Just in relation to this point, um, if I understand this correctly, it seems as if you raised with him the fact that it upset you that he only said it in the bedroom. Yes.
02:23:31 Yes. And you refer to this in your witness statement. His response to that was to say that you were being below the belt. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:23:39 Yes. Can you help us with your understanding of what he meant by saying it was below the belt? Was he saying that he had told you that he loved you outside the bedroom or that you were
02:23:50 bedroom or that you were that I was doubting his sincerity is what I uh took from that that you know as if as if I was making him out as somebody who just uh yeah which actually
02:24:04 somebody who just uh yeah which actually turned out to be true but you know who ended up saying that he loves me only within the context of sex. Yeah. That that he was just using me that. So, how dare I accuse him is, you know, what
02:24:15 how dare I accuse him is, you know, what I sort of infer from his text message when he said that's below the belt, right? So, he communicated that in a text message. Um, did he address your wider point at
02:24:27 Um, did he address your wider point at all? Did he provide any explanation of why he didn't say it outside of the bedroom? Did he show that he understood why it might be upsetting? No. No. No, I mean he would just continue to express that he was upset
02:24:41 continue to express that he was upset and so then I would feel bad about even having suggested that and so I would feel very apologetic. So you would apologize to him? Yes.
02:24:50 Yes. And to what extent did it put you off raising the issue again? Oh yeah. It just put me off. Yeah. I I didn't It was difficult to raise the issue again.
02:25:12 Turning now to having children. Mhm.
02:25:20 Over the course of the relationship in 2006 and 2007, did you ever discuss the possibility of having children together? Yes.
02:25:29 Yes. Can you help us with the terms in which you discussed it? What was said? Um, well, during that time in our relationship, uh, he it he didn't declare that he
02:25:43 uh, he it he didn't declare that he wanted to have children with me or that we would get married and have children. I mean, it was very soon in the relationship, but he would say like, "Oh, we'll have very lovely children
02:25:54 "Oh, we'll have very lovely children together." you know and um I remember once there was conversation on the sofa.
02:26:05 on the sofa. I forget exactly what was said but there was a discussion about um I think you know me wanting a family or you know having nice children. It
02:26:18 or you know having nice children. It seemed more in a flirtatious manner that time you know but it it also indicated that he was serious. Yeah. Um, and then another time, I don't know what date, but you know, I just
02:26:30 know what date, but you know, I just remember like putting our hands out, comparing our skin tone. Well, he was the one comparing our skin tones and then um saying how, you know,
02:26:42 then um saying how, you know, my skin tone like, you know, if we end up having mixed race babies that they they just look very beautiful, right?
02:26:49 right? Yeah.
02:26:51 Yeah. So referring to your ethnicity in terms of its aesthetic appeal. Yes.
02:26:56 Yes. Um how many times roughly? I think if I understand your evidence about three times.
02:27:02 times. Yeah, I'd say two to three times. Two times. Um and again if I understand your evidence correctly, it gave you the impression that he was thinking about the future. Is that correct?
02:27:19 And how did that make you feel now or then? Then not now. Um that time it made me feel very
02:27:30 Um that time it made me feel very hopeful. It made me feel like wow here's a man that's not um afraid to discuss children. Here's a man that you know is saying that we're going to
02:27:41 you know is saying that we're going to have beautiful children together. That we would have ch beautiful children together. So it made me feel that I was on the right track in life to be married to this person.
02:27:52 to this person. Yeah.
02:27:53 Yeah. So
02:27:56 So did it make you feel like he was committed to you? Yes.
02:28:03 Looking now Maya at some aspects of the way that he conducted the relationship with you. Um, when you and he
02:28:14 with you. Um, when you and he started your relationship, did he tell Atif Chowry and your friends in the cooperative about your relationship? No, he did not.
02:28:25 No, he did not. How did this come to your attention? Um, I'm not too sure how it came to my attention. It's just that uh
02:28:38 I remember though being very upset because they had surprised him for his birthday or I don't know that whether that's his real birthday. It's not his real birthday.
02:28:50 It's not his real birthday. But but um you know that by that time we'd already been together for a whole summer.
02:28:57 summer. Yeah. Uh so I would I understand in the beginning not to declare things because things are new and you don't know where it's going and maybe it's a bit too early to say anything just in case you
02:29:08 early to say anything just in case you know the relationship doesn't build and then you have all these expectations from neighbors and you know mutual friends. Um but then you know by the time his birthday came around in August.
02:29:21 time his birthday came around in August. Yeah.
02:29:22 Yeah. Then uh you know he went next door and you know he was supposed to come see me because his birthday and and he went next door and he just didn't come back
02:29:35 next door and he just didn't come back for hours and and when I asked him like you know what took so long and everything he was like oh you know they surprised me for my birthday. And I was like, "Well, I'm meant to be your
02:29:46 like, "Well, I'm meant to be your girlfriend and why didn't you invite me next door?" And how did that make you feel? Extremely upset. Yeah.
02:29:52 Yeah. Yeah.
02:29:53 Yeah. Did you ask him why he wasn't telling other people? No, cuz it was just so late and I was exhausted. I think, you know, maybe 2:00 a.m. I I don't remember, but I just remember like I was fighting sleep.
02:30:06 remember like I was fighting sleep. Yeah.
02:30:06 Yeah. Waiting for him to come back. Yeah.
02:30:15 Looking now at your activities or lack of as a couple. Um, did you and Robert Hastings go out on dates together?
02:30:26 dates together? No, only one. Uh, can you tell us about that one date? Uh, yeah. I don't remember what day it was. It was sometime when the weather
02:30:37 was. It was sometime when the weather was good. Probably the summer. 2006 I think. Yeah, 2006. And he my flatmate and I had another friend staying over. They were aware
02:30:49 staying over. They were aware cuz they're like, "Oh, so nice. He's taking you out, you know, have a nice trip." And then he um drove me to Brighton. Uh and then yeah, we just we didn't do much. We just walked to the
02:31:01 we didn't do much. We just walked to the beach.
02:31:02 beach. Yeah.
02:31:02 Yeah. I think we got an ice cream or so. And then uh we weren't even there for very long. maybe about an hour an hour or two and then you know it was uh
02:31:14 and then you know it was uh I think past sun or just about the sun setting or so so don't dusk then we returned and then he you know uh dropped me off at home right
02:31:23 right and that was the only date we ever had right
02:31:28 right um
02:31:30 um so no dinners out no cinema trips no drinks in the pub no walks in the pub or anything? No. Um, did you go to parties together?
02:31:41 Um, did you go to parties together? House parties? No, we never went anywhere together. And so obviously it follows from that, but just for the avoidance of doubt, you didn't go on holiday together. No. And I think that was quite upsetting
02:31:53 No. And I think that was quite upsetting because I feel that the trip to Brighton was before that birthday party uh right for him. And um so given that he seemed
02:32:05 for him. And um so given that he seemed to be quite open about uh being a boyfriend in front of my flatmate and my friend who was living with me at the time then
02:32:17 with me at the time then uh what you know it just it was very confusing a few weeks later. No I understand. Well I think that because you refer to that in one of your emails. I don't think we need to bring it up but just to get the chronology
02:32:28 it up but just to get the chronology clear. His cover date of birth was the 15th of August 1973. And you mention um in an email, your
02:32:40 And you mention um in an email, your email dated the 31st of August 2006, you refer to that incident where he went round
02:32:47 round to Aif's place and they had a surprise party. Yeah. So that puts it and you think Brighton was the trip to Brighton was before I think a few weeks before that.
02:32:58 a few weeks before that. Yeah.
02:33:00 Yeah. When you were indoors together, did you watch television together? No, we never even watched a single movie. Uh, not a not telly, not a show.
02:33:11 movie. Uh, not a not telly, not a show. It was just conversation and sex. So, did you eat together? No.
02:33:19 Um, what was the proportion roughly of conversation to sex if you saw what I mean? Would you have conversation and then have sex or were the two inextricably? We would tend to have conversation
02:33:30 We would tend to have conversation first.
02:33:31 first. Yeah.
02:33:31 Yeah. Yeah. I think you might have tried a bit of food from my house once. I don't remember when, but uh you know we but it still wasn't a meal, you know. It was
02:33:42 still wasn't a meal, you know. It was just like some odd hour and I said, "Oh, I've got something cooked. Would you like to try it?" You know, but it wasn't us even sitting down together for a meal. Um I mean is it fair to say from
02:33:54 meal. Um I mean is it fair to say from what you've said earlier about the times and the way in which he would come over that he didn't really lend itself to coup's activity? No, I was extremely upset about that.
02:34:05 No, I was extremely upset about that. Well, that was my next question is how did it make how did it make you feel at the time? Yeah, just just really upset because because you know he's you know in relationships you don't even say when you're dating somebody you
02:34:17 say when you're dating somebody you don't even say I love you so soon and then and then not to even um you know tell his friends tell my neighbors that we're together
02:34:30 neighbors that we're together but then you say we're going to have kids you know we would have beautiful children together. Um it was very confusing and upsetting to me.
02:34:39 to me. It's mixed messaging. Yes.
02:34:44 And again, if I understand your evidence so far, it seemed he was demanding total commitment from you and demanding that you and he were exclusive, but at the same time, not treating you like you
02:34:58 same time, not treating you like you were his girlfriend. Is that fair to say?
02:35:00 say? Yes.
02:35:01 Yes. He was treating you more like you were a casual hookup. Yes.
02:35:10 Looking May just at the correspondence in which you set out for Robert Hastings, how you feel about this issue in particular. If we could bring up 38191,
02:35:22 page five, it's tab A2. Sir, it's uh seven paragraphs up on page five, please. This is the email of the 31st of August, 2006.
02:35:37 Uh, this is the bit where you
02:35:42 um you've cut and paste a section from an email to a friend and you talk about how terrible you've been feeling. Again, we'll come to that
02:35:54 been feeling. Again, we'll come to that and the self harm that you've been inflicting on yourself, but it reads any anyway, rest assured, I'm better for now. Rob and I just need to be able to talk and have time to do normal things
02:36:05 talk and have time to do normal things like date. I can't stand communication solely by text message. And also, in spite of the [ __ ] Rob has thoughtlessly put me through, Rob is a nice guy. And I want to give us both a
02:36:18 nice guy. And I want to give us both a chance because we both haven't really made the time for each other and it's all too easy to give up. I just want to ask you quickly my despite his behavior thus far
02:36:29 thus far in your relationship, why did you think he was a nice guy? Um
02:36:35 Um because when we were together, he would be nice. He would say nice things. Um that's when he would ask, "How's your day?" or things, simple things like
02:36:46 day?" or things, simple things like that.
02:36:48 that. Yeah. Um, to what extent, if at all, was it because he would say to you also that he was one of the good ones? This thing of him being one of the 2% of good men.
02:36:59 of him being one of the 2% of good men. Did that
02:37:01 Did that have an impact? Uh, he didn't declare that so much again, but he did uh given the sort of persona that he gave that he was just
02:37:12 persona that he gave that he was just and noble, then you know, I should just put my faith in him. And uh part of me not wanting to give up is uh is not due to the fact that he was nice was but
02:37:23 to the fact that he was nice was but because I had given my body to him and I felt that if you give your body to somebody then you are with that person for life
02:37:33 for life that it's serious it's a serious matter. If we could bring up please same document uh but page nine. This is an email you sent a few weeks
02:37:45 This is an email you sent a few weeks later on the 24th of September 2006. If it's the penultimate paragraph, please. And the third sentence where it says I find it.
02:37:58 find it. Sorry, that's not quite right. Actually, if we could.
02:38:05 Um, I'm struggling to find I'll read it out anyway, and you can tell me if I've lost you. Um it says I find you've written I find it difficult to accept that every time I want to share
02:38:17 accept that every time I want to share things you are not there and then it is my friends as friends should be there to share the moments to sit in the park and watch the sun to watch movies and try each other's crap cooking or at least me
02:38:29 each other's crap cooking or at least me telling myself you have crap taste buds. Thank you. I know I cannot expect all these things immediately with the way we have torn each other and trampled our soul's feelings. I know that to pretend
02:38:41 soul's feelings. I know that to pretend all things run smoothly as if they have just by going out on casual dates cannot be done because it was it will feel as if we are lying. It will drive us mad when we both know it is a game of
02:38:53 when we both know it is a game of pretend. Still, we have to try and work a way out. We can take that down now, please. Um, first of all, Maya, this is nearly a month later. So it suggests that
02:39:05 month later. So it suggests that nothing's changed that the relationship has still been conducted in this way. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:39:12 Yes. You say here you refer to dating it would feel as if we were lying or as if you were pretending. Is that something you genuinely felt or is that something
02:39:23 you genuinely felt or is that something that he'd encouraged you to think? Uh no. It's something that I generally felt that if we if you know because when
02:39:34 felt that if we if you know because when you're with the context is you know when you're with friends and they say oh how's your boyfriend or what did you do or where did you go and you know just to um
02:39:46 um yeah and also the casual thing is you know because he declared his love for me I thought we were going to have a family together that we weren't just dating casually
02:39:55 casually um so it would feel as if oh no I'm just seeing this person or he's friend with that you know that would feel like it's lying it's it's it's no he was somebody that I was going to be with. Yeah.
02:40:08 that I was going to be with. Yeah. Is it fair to say though that it suggests there's some confusion on your part because on the one hand you're upset by the fact he's not taking you on dates. On the other hand you're saying well actually going on dates would be
02:40:19 well actually going on dates would be somehow dishonest. No, it was more that not going on dates would be but to tell to just to pretend as if we were a sort of couple that just went on dates, right? When actually you were something
02:40:31 right? When actually you were something more
02:40:32 more much deeper than that. Yeah,
02:40:44 if we could look at again uh 38191 please.
02:40:48 please. Tab A2. Uh, this is an email from Robert Hastings to you, Maya. It's not dated. Just the way it's been presented, there's no date, but it would appear to have been written
02:41:00 but it would appear to have been written around January 2007 because that's your response is dated the 12th of January. Mhm.
02:41:06 Mhm. Just to put this in context. So, this is 2007. It seems like he's been out of touch for a while. Yes.
02:41:12 Yes. Um, the second paragraph, 10 lines down, that starts finishing late and having to get up early. So this is from him. Finishing late and having to get up early is the way my life has to be until
02:41:25 early is the way my life has to be until I decide to do something else, which doesn't leave a great deal of time for much else. I'm also painfully aware that coming to see you late at night isn't the solution, and I had begun to feel guilty about that. Increasingly, I felt
02:41:37 guilty about that. Increasingly, I felt that you considered those visits to be little more than [ __ ] trips. I hate that term, and that certainly wasn't the case. But trying to be good and not responding to the intense sexual reaction that you can easily provoke in
02:41:49 reaction that you can easily provoke in me and in us is never going to be easy. Which means that leaving in the morning if often is often tinged with guilt and regret, not for me, but for you as you smile and curl up into a small warm ball
02:42:02 smile and curl up into a small warm ball almost in readiness for hibernation. And again, this suggests that nothing's changed. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:42:11 It appears, and just tell me if this is how you interpret it, that he's telling you that he's keeping his distance because he was feeling guilty that you saw the late night visits as [ __ ] trips.
02:42:24 saw the late night visits as [ __ ] trips. Um,
02:42:28 wait. Uh, well, no. I mean, I I feel that the the paragraph is more explaining why he's staying away. It's not the guilt of the [ __ ] trips, but because he has to work so late and he's got odd hours. Right. Well, again, we'll
02:42:41 got odd hours. Right. Well, again, we'll come to these these periods of withdrawal from him. Um, I want to just look at your response to this this specific point he makes. It's same document, uh, page 32,
02:42:55 It's same document, uh, page 32, uh, paragraph two that starts, never ever beat yourself up. So, this is sent on the 12th of January, and you say, never ever beat yourself up about the ways you have to meet me or sleeping with me. Words and musings might bring a
02:43:07 with me. Words and musings might bring a paranoia that it looks like [ __ ] trips, but I've never felt that you see me for [ __ ] trips. I've never felt [ __ ] by you. And while I can't help feeling lust for you and provoke you, at least on my part, whether naughty or nice, short or
02:43:18 part, whether naughty or nice, short or lingering, I only ever make love to you. Is that how you genuinely felt at the time?
02:43:26 time? Yes.
02:43:28 Yes. Um, it does read as if you're trying to assage his guilt. Yes, it I was quite mixed. Uh it was mixed feelings because on one for myself I never felt that it
02:43:41 on one for myself I never felt that it was just casual sex because for me that was something very sacred. Yeah.
02:43:46 Yeah. Um so that's why I say that you know it's never felt like [ __ ] trips for myself when I would have sex with him. But at the same time, I had this
02:43:58 him. But at the same time, I had this feeling that it did feel like [ __ ] trips because he would only come and see me and have sex at night.
02:44:07 at night. And so
02:44:10 And so just really trying to reconcile that and trying to please him and to say, "Okay, okay, no, I don't see you that way." Yeah. I felt that I had to just bear with it until he got a better job.
02:44:21 with it until he got a better job. Right.
02:44:22 Right. And is that something he made you feel? Yes.
02:44:27 Yes. That it was out of his hands. He had this demanding job. Yeah.
02:44:31 Yeah. There was nothing he could do.
02:44:35 Moving on now to the accusations of infidelity. Um this is a difficult topic. So just please if at any point you want a break or you'd like to go into private session, please just say.
02:44:47 into private session, please just say. Okay.
02:44:50 Okay. Um, you say in your witness statement in relation to this, this is at paragraph 4.19, you say that throughout the relationship he would regularly accuse
02:45:02 relationship he would regularly accuse you of infidelity and of intending to use him and break his heart. We'll look at some specific examples in the emails. Can you help us
02:45:14 examples in the emails. Can you help us with did he elaborate on how he thought you intended to use him? Was this for sex? For money? Um, for sex, I guess, because he, we,
02:45:25 Um, for sex, I guess, because he, we, you know, I never asked him for money.
02:45:31 The accusations that he made, how did he make them? Did he do it in person, in text messages, on the phone? In text messages. Always in text messages. Always in text messages.
02:45:46 I want to look at some specific references in the emails. Uh 38191 tab A2
02:45:54 tab A2 page two just at the bottom and it goes over to page three the final paragraph on page two. This is your email of the 31st of August 2006.
02:46:06 2006. Um, and you've written there. You've just texted me and our Texathon is much more amicable than has been our previous ones in quite a long time. That's what
02:46:17 ones in quite a long time. That's what upsets me and I can get pretty thrown off by some of your texts. They run in my head even though many have been deleted and I can still remember them. Then just going over the page. Yeah. Privacy just phon me on his way to
02:46:29 Privacy just phon me on his way to Manchester today to check if I was all right and he calls now and again to see if Privacy whom he's never met needs help for a room since she's a friend. If P is okay since she's been harassing him and I still remember how you just called
02:46:41 and I still remember how you just called him Lamborini boy that day when I was so upset that even for me tardy queen it was such an effort to get to work. I finally showed up at 1
02:46:52 to get to work. I finally showed up at 1 when I always make the effort on weekends to come in at 9. When I was that upset when all that went through my mind was to go home as quick as possible and relieve the pain by maybe walking through brambles and hoping I wouldn't
02:47:04 through brambles and hoping I wouldn't have to do that. When you asked me how I was and I said I didn't have much patience, you come up with retort saying that's cuz Lamborini boy is always waiting for you.
02:47:15 waiting for you. First of all, Maya, the reference to walking through Brambles, is that a reference to you're having an urge to harm yourself? Yes.
02:47:25 Lamini boy is waiting for you. We don't want to know who Lamborini boy is, but it seems from this that
02:47:36 it seems from this that when you responded to a question when he inquired into your well-being, he responded with a snide suggestion that you were considering running off or having sexual relations with Lamborini
02:47:48 having sexual relations with Lamborini boy. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:47:51 Yes. So, is that the kind of thing he would do?
02:47:53 do? Yes.
02:47:56 Yes. Um,
02:47:58 Um, same document, please. Page three.
02:48:03 It's the same email. Um, three paragraphs up from the bottom. The final sentence. This is again the bit where you're quoting. You've extracted this the letter to your friend that you've
02:48:15 the letter to your friend that you've written about, Robert Hastings. And it's we've looked at it previously. Yeah.
02:48:20 Yeah. But I want to look now at the accusations of infidelity. where you say it's been an emotional [ __ ] roller coaster of the last three weeks for me. Um, this is written on the 30th of
02:48:31 Um, this is written on the 30th of August. So, this has been going on since about the 6th of August. First week, Rob got irrationally jealous of me showing my portfolio to my new best PE guy. Second week, I bloody get a text on a
02:48:43 Second week, I bloody get a text on a Sunday evening after a conversation asking if I've been [ __ ] or even intimate with anyone else from Rob since we got together. What the hell? That really really hurt and pissed me off.
02:48:54 really really hurt and pissed me off. But no matter how many texts back or me crying on his voicemail to say, "Could you just call me back?" Whatever. Narder. No messages or nothing.
02:49:04 So again, another example of him accusing you of infidelity via text. Um it suggests you set it out week one,
02:49:15 Um it suggests you set it out week one, week two, this is a couple of months maybe into your relationship. Suggests that the accusations were quite frequent. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:49:23 Yes. How often would he make these accusations? Well, it's an exaggeration to say all the time. Um, but you know, it seems as if it was all the time because it was so
02:49:35 if it was all the time because it was so constant.
02:49:36 constant. Daily,
02:49:37 Daily, not daily, weekly, weekly or maybe once every two weeks. Um, it seems from this as well that the pattern was that he would make these accusations and then he would stonewall you, then he wouldn't reply to you. Is
02:49:50 you, then he wouldn't reply to you. Is that accurate? Yes.
02:49:54 You also refer in your witness statement at paragraph 4.21 to receiving out of the blue accusatory texts and you give an example. Can you tell us an example
02:50:05 an example. Can you tell us an example of the type of things he would text you just out of the blue? Uh like who are you going to [ __ ] next is sorry for my language but yeah um that's the sort of texts that I would
02:50:17 that's the sort of texts that I would get.
02:50:18 get. When would he send you those texts? sometimes like 1:00 a.m. 2 am. Uh
02:50:25 Uh what impact did that have on you getting a text like that for that time? Extremely distressed because I would just worry like where did that come from? You know, I it's one thing when
02:50:37 from? You know, I it's one thing when he's seen somebody like Lamborini boy at a party or whatever and then that follows on where he can, you know, or I've made some conversation about some brother of mine.
02:50:48 brother of mine. Yeah. But
02:50:50 Yeah. But something like that is, you know, when we think things are going well and there hasn't been any accusations or stuff and then suddenly this kind of text message would come out the blue,
02:51:01 would come out the blue, right?
02:51:02 right? Yeah.
02:51:03 Yeah. And sorry, just for the avoidance, when you say brother, you mean a male friend, a close male friend. Yeah. It's just in our culture, we will consider we have that sort of respect with each other. Yeah.
02:51:15 with each other. Yeah. when you got one of these messages out of the blue, how would you respond to him, if at all? Um,
02:51:24 depending on the time of day, so if it's very late at night, I', you know, I would just panic. I'd feel nervous, but then I was just too tired
02:51:35 nervous, but then I was just too tired to be getting into some argument at 2 3:00 a.m.
02:51:39 3:00 a.m. Um,
02:51:41 Um, but it would really, really upset me the next day if it was very late at night. If it was during the day, then it would upset me the whole day because I would try and text back and say, "What are you talking about? Can you explain?"
02:51:53 talking about? Can you explain?" But I would just never get any replies. And I would feel very worried for him actually. I would feel like what have I done? You know, is there something uh
02:52:08 Yeah. Or is there some kind of paranoia or worry? You know, I I I actually worried for him at times. Worried because you thought he was unraveling mentally.
02:52:19 unraveling mentally. Um yeah, worried that he feared that he would lose me to some other man. Yeah. that I I thought maybe he's, you know, suffering from so much
02:52:30 he's, you know, suffering from so much anxiety,
02:52:31 anxiety, right?
02:52:33 right? Yeah.
02:52:36 We'll look at some examples of where you set out in emails how it made you feel. Did you ever discuss in person with him how it made you feel? I would try to at times, but often it just would never happen. Um because I
02:52:50 just would never happen. Um because I just didn't want to argue with him when we were together. I felt that you know when we were together then just by me being with him physically whether having
02:53:02 being with him physically whether having sex or not just even sitting down and him seeing me there and that there's no other male in my life of romantic persuasion that um that I was reassuring
02:53:16 persuasion that um that I was reassuring him. So our moments together physically were more in a sense to reassure him. Right? So I didn't really feel that it was a time and place to argue especially
02:53:27 was a time and place to argue especially because it would be late at night. Yeah.
02:53:30 Yeah. So that was if I understand correctly one of the impacts that it made you feel the onus was on you to reassure him. Yes.
02:53:40 If we could look at 38191 page 44 paragraph one please. This is tab A2.
02:53:49 tab A2. This is an email you sent to Robert Hastings on the 5th of March, 2007. Um,
02:53:58 Um, the context for this, paragraph 3, we don't need to look at it, but it suggests that he had accused you the previous day of taking men into your room. And again, this is March 2007. So, is it fair to say that this suggests it
02:54:10 is it fair to say that this suggests it shows that these accusations continued? Yes.
02:54:15 Yes. Um,
02:54:17 Um, yes. So, page 44, paragraph 1. What do you want? Oh, it starts, what do you want me to believe about you? Again, apologies if I've I've written the wrong reference, but I'll again I'll
02:54:29 the wrong reference, but I'll again I'll read it out. It's um
02:54:34 it says, "What do you want me to believe about you? I know you are hurting very much, but does it matter to you that I am hurting too? Or do you have to keep sending snide, hurtful suggestions and comments about my fidelity just to make
02:54:46 comments about my fidelity just to make yourself feel better to cover up the guilt of not actually dealing with me and with yourself? And then paragraph two, I will find the
02:54:57 And then paragraph two, I will find the correct reference. Um, oh yes, no, it is 43.
02:55:01 43. Yeah.
02:55:01 Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it's 4. It No, we're sorry, it was the right. It's not 43. It's Sorry, I've confused myself. The bit I want to go to now is page 44. Apologies. This is unhelpful. Um,
02:55:17 yes. So, if we're looking at paragraph 2 on page 44, no, sorry, paragraph 3. It says, "Even if you don't see me going out of my mind sitting in the cold, or
02:55:28 out of my mind sitting in the cold, or the times I got lost at the back of the estates by your house in the middle of the night, the times I went to try and meet you with all the cab fairs, and yeah, today I had to take a cab, too.
02:55:40 yeah, today I had to take a cab, too. You set me off most when you questioned my fidelity. I couldn't function for a few days when you saw me bloody show photos to a friend. You can spy on my house all you like and interrogate everyone who knows
02:55:51 like and interrogate everyone who knows me. you will know I don't bring men into my room. And then paragraph three. The last time it ever happened, i.e. you taking men into your room, was exactly
02:56:02 taking men into your room, was exactly that night you mentioned yesterday with a skinny, long-haired, shrunken married guy before he used to crash at a te or in my living room. But as the house was full with other guests that day, I said, "Fine, you sleep in my room. You know
02:56:14 "Fine, you sleep in my room. You know about this. I told you about it." And when people again and again try to take advantage of me physically, even when I say no, even when I avoid communicating with them and avoid them period, it
02:56:25 with them and avoid them period, it happens. And all you can say in support is, "Oh, I've been [ __ ] them." So, if I understand this correctly, my it seems that the previous day he's accused you of having sex with another
02:56:37 accused you of having sex with another man.
02:56:37 man. Yes.
02:56:38 Yes. Is that right? Of taking a man into your room and having sex with him. Yes.
02:56:45 you on this page. If we again we stay on this page, please we just look at the final
02:56:51 final paragraph.
02:56:58 You set out well I don't think we need to read it out but you set out very eloquently why it is so hurtful for you as you have in your evidence that it's it's hurts you deeply.
02:57:09 deeply. Um,
02:57:16 if we could look at paragraph, sorry, page 45, paragraph three.
02:57:24 Yeah, the one that reads, you know, I can
02:57:28 can Yeah. No, sorry. It's It reads, you know, I can take a lot of pain. I'm sorry. I think some of the page page 44.
02:57:33 page 44. Page 44. Sorry. I think it's I know why this has happened. I apologize. That's it. Paragraph three on this page. You know, I can take a lot of pain and I've taken a hell of a lot. This is the
02:57:44 I've taken a hell of a lot. This is the same email. And I've taken a heck of a lot as well as as well as physical energy. Just taking in your assumptions about me and all the little questions and ways you like to evoke memories in
02:57:55 and ways you like to evoke memories in me. Like, how many people have I [ __ ] or know? Your question of if I even sucked my rapist's [ __ ] Okay. Can we take that down? Is that a question he asked you? Uh, I don't recall, but I
02:58:08 asked you? Uh, I don't recall, but I think he did because I wrote it. Yeah. Is it right that, if I understand correctly, but please
02:58:19 if I understand correctly, but please tell me if I've got this wrong, that he even got jealous about the person who raped you? Yes.
02:58:27 Yes. And the earlier reference in that correspondence where you confide in him about someone taking advantage of you sexually, his response to that when you say your response is, "Oh, I [ __ ]
02:58:38 say your response is, "Oh, I [ __ ] them."
02:58:39 them." Was that his response? He would then accuse you of actually having sex with this person. Yes. I mean he would accuse me you know the the feeling that I got um because I
02:58:52 the the feeling that I got um because I had been not only raped but since then sometimes
02:58:57 sometimes uh sexually harassed by different people in my life you know whether it's somebody trying to cop a field or whatever and uh
02:59:09 uh you know and and it would distress me and and I would I I remember talking to Rob about those moments of how, you know, in my life, I've always had men try to have sex with me. Not always,
02:59:21 try to have sex with me. Not always, but, you know, I've had different men over the course of years, like try to attempt to have sex with me and how uh upset it would make me feel.
02:59:34 and how uh upset it would make me feel. And then he, you know, it's more like, well, you know, you're so hot or you must have done something or, you know, Yeah. or you know how did it even get to that point where somebody
02:59:47 that point where somebody you know just grabs you on the street to kiss you and things like that. And that uh person that he accused me of um I was extremely insensed that time because
02:59:58 extremely insensed that time because that person told me he he was very drunk and he said you look so beautiful I could rape you and I kicked him you know
03:00:09 could rape you and I kicked him you know and and so to accuse me of h sleeping with a person who would insult me in such a manner was well that's why I wrote a very long email
03:00:20 wrote a very long email as out of anger of that situation. Yeah.
03:00:24 Yeah. Um I want to talk now about a very sexually explicit message that he sent you that you mentioned in your witness statement. Yes.
03:00:32 Yes. Um you refer in your witness statement my paragraph 4.29 29 to receiving a particular message from him during one of these cycles of him making
03:00:43 of these cycles of him making accusations, you desperately trying to contact him, him withdrawing and stonewalling you. Can you help us with what he said in
03:00:55 Can you help us with what he said in that particular text message if you know what I'm talking about? Um,
03:01:00 Um, or would you rather? I I can read it out. Would you rather? No, I understand. No, no, I completely understand. Sorry, I should have done that anyway. No, I understand. Um, if we bring up 38191,
03:01:14 if we bring up 38191, sorry, I hope I've got the page number right. It's This is an email sent on the 20th of August, 2007. I think it's the very bottom of page 53.
03:01:25 I think it's the very bottom of page 53. So, this is again putting putting it in context, this is actually after he's ended the relationship, but it's a long email you sent him. And the bit I'm interested in reads, "You must have used me for a [ __ ] ride
03:01:37 "You must have used me for a [ __ ] ride and now you're bored."
03:01:41 Uh, yeah. Yeah. Have you got it? Yeah. Um, I mean, look at the facts after you hurt me by accusing me of cheating on you and I sent you lots of messages about that and letters. Can I just ask when you say
03:01:53 letters. Can I just ask when you say letters, do you mean emails? Uh, both emails and handwritten letters. Um, I sent you lots of messages about that and letters. Then you texted me in the middle of the night on Friday that
03:02:05 the middle of the night on Friday that you wanted to come in my ass and the following Monday I came to visit you, but I didn't let you do that. Um, it seems, we can bring that down, please. It seems, Mer, that he did this around,
03:02:17 It seems, Mer, that he did this around, this text message was sent around the 10th of March, 2007. Does that sound broadly correct? Yes. Um,
03:02:23 Yes. Um, had he ever sent you such a sexually explicit message before? No.
03:02:28 No. How did you feel when you received this message?
03:02:32 message? I don't at first I didn't understand what that meant and and then I just thought, "Oh, that's just such a horrible thing cuz I was not very sexually experienced to know about
03:02:45 very sexually experienced to know about these kind of different acts then." So I felt that that was so vulgar. And again, if I understand correct, you hadn't heard from him for a long time.
03:02:56 hadn't heard from him for a long time. You've been trying to contact him. Yes.
03:02:58 Yes. And then suddenly late at night, out of the blue, this is what he messages you. Yes. Yeah. Did you respond at the time?
03:03:09 I think either I gaslighted it and just pretended it didn't happen. I didn't say, "What do you mean?" or Yeah. Because I just didn't want to. I was shocked.
03:03:18 shocked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
03:03:19 Yeah. Um you're setting it out for him in this email here. Did you ever bring up with him in person how it made you feel and how grossly offensive and inappropriate
03:03:30 how grossly offensive and inappropriate it was?
03:03:33 it was? I don't remember telling him in person cuz I think um
03:03:40 No, I don't remember telling him that in person or discussing that because it just seemed too vulgar to even talk about. Yeah. Um, these accusations of infidelity,
03:03:53 Um, these accusations of infidelity, did they
03:03:56 did they impact your behavior around your male friends?
03:04:00 friends? Uh, yes, they did. How?
03:04:04 How? Um, I I tried I just kept a distance from people that I Sorry, this is something in my th uh I I just kept a distance. It made me feel
03:04:15 distance. It made me feel I felt that I needed to keep a distance. Yeah.
03:04:18 Yeah. Um and you know this was also quite sad because
03:04:24 because um it's not that there was back in that time uh there weren't that many
03:04:33 many people around my age or slightly older from my cultural background that were in this country. Yeah. So in a sense I felt that all I had in a sort of family of sorts were
03:04:45 had in a sort of family of sorts were these men who I considered as brothers as family. And so
03:04:52 And so uh you know to kind of I felt that I had to sort of distance myself from my family because they just happened to be men.
03:05:00 men. Yeah.
03:05:01 Yeah. Rather than women because there weren't that many of us young women around that time uh in the UK. Um, and so
03:05:13 that time uh in the UK. Um, and so yeah, because otherwise I'd just get accused of of of being promiscuous or wanting to or flirt with them or running away with one of them or whatever it was. So I it was hard because it was
03:05:27 was. So I it was hard because it was almost like cutting myself from my only family that I had at that time here. Yeah. So a support network. You had to distance yourself from it.
03:05:39 The emails suggest Maya that he eluded he'd alluded to you about a difficult past involving women
03:05:50 past involving women and he sought he referred to that as a way of explaining why he was so jealous. Um can you help us with what he told you
03:06:01 Um can you help us with what he told you about the reason for his jealousy? Um well two reasons. one, he said that his exartner had cheated on him and uh
03:06:13 his exartner had cheated on him and uh in a very bad way that he implied that it might have been in the same bed that he was sleeping on, but uh I remember he saying that she even
03:06:25 uh I remember he saying that she even went so far as to steal his records and to sell them, right? And so that gave me deep sympathy because if you are a music collector, a book collector, whatever it is, you know
03:06:37 book collector, whatever it is, you know that
03:06:39 that it was like being stabbed in the back and then the knife twisting even further. Um and then he also had said how when he grew up his mother uh had
03:06:50 how when he grew up his mother uh had multiple partners she would take and he implied that well he implied that she was promiscuous but he implied that she might have been um having sex with a lot of men for
03:07:02 um having sex with a lot of men for money.
03:07:02 money. Right.
03:07:03 Right. He said he would hear her having sex in his Witch Council flat. Yeah.
03:07:11 Yeah. Yeah. Um,
03:07:13 Yeah. Um, sorry, just to clarify, when he said his partner cheated on him in the same bed, does that mean he was he was claiming that he was in the bed when she cheated on him or just it was in their bed? That she took the Yeah. the partner that
03:07:25 That she took the Yeah. the partner that it was in the bed that they shared together?
03:07:29 together? Yeah.
03:07:29 Yeah. Yes.
03:07:30 Yes. In so far as he told you these things, did he was that was it your impression that that was a tacit acknowledgement that his jealousy was irrational that it
03:07:42 that his jealousy was irrational that it was quite out of control? Um, no. It just made me feel like, oh, okay, that explains why he has such I mean, I did think his jealousy was irrational, but then it kind of gave
03:07:54 irrational, but then it kind of gave more of an explanation. So it justified the
03:07:57 the irrational what would appear to other people as
03:08:01 people as irrational outbursts. Well, I my question I didn't make it clear is did he in any way acknowledge that his jealousy was irrational or not? No. No. I mean it was more that it was justified due to his experiences.
03:08:15 justified due to his experiences. Um, and again, you've you've partly answered this, but what was the impact on you of this story that he told you about his mother and his former partner?
03:08:26 about his mother and his former partner? Um, I just felt so sad for him. I I you know just imagine growing up as a teenager
03:08:34 teenager uh with a single mom and then having to deal with that and so having these sexual hang-ups and then find you know to to
03:08:44 to to uh find sex something as very sacred to enter a relationship with a partner and then have her cheat on him. So I felt very sorry for him.
03:08:56 very sorry for him. Did it make you more forgiving as it were of the irrational Yes.
03:09:02 Yes. jealousy and the text messages? Yes.
03:09:08 Um, looking at other things that he did in the way he conducted the relationship. We've referred to it already, but this tendency to disappear and to cut contact, I'd like to look at
03:09:19 and to cut contact, I'd like to look at that in a little more detail. Uh you refer in your witness statement Mayer at paragraph 4.18 to his disappearing for periods of time and during those periods you were unable
03:09:31 and during those periods you were unable to contact him. Can you give us a rough idea of how often he would do that over the course of the relationship in 2006 2007?
03:09:38 2007? Um
03:09:41 Um God it just felt like every other month. Uh and then obviously the the significant one was over Christmas. Yeah, we'll look at that. Um, how long
03:09:52 Yeah, we'll look at that. Um, how long would he disappear for? Roughly two, three weeks. And
03:10:00 And when you say he wouldn't respond to contact, was that phone contact, text contacts?
03:10:08 Again, we'll look at some of the emails, but it looks like you would email him over those periods, and he would sometimes respond. Is that fair to say? Yes.
03:10:15 Yes. But is that the only way that he would make contact with you through the emails? Yes. Yes. He wouldn't text back and then so I felt that the only way that I could reach out to him was by
03:10:27 that I could reach out to him was by sending an email which would elicit responses time, you know, more regularly. Yeah. Um would he explain himself when he got back in contact? Would he explain
03:10:38 he got back in contact? Would he explain why he'd cut contact in this way? No. No. He he wouldn't say, "Oh, I've been away on a job for three weeks or something." It just
03:10:49 something." It just there there was barely any explanation why he would just disappear. Often it was that he was jealous was the sort of explanation he would you know because uh
03:11:00 explanation he would you know because uh it tended to feel as if the disappearances were after an accusation of jealousy and that he needed to get away to you know uh sort his mental health out.
03:11:13 you know uh sort his mental health out. Um
03:11:14 Um yeah,
03:11:15 yeah, but in any event, it seems he wasn't giving you a clear explanation, so it was confusing. No, he didn't really have a story to Yeah.
03:11:23 Yeah. to do that. Yeah. And again, broadly speaking, what impact did it have on you? We'll look at some specific examples in the emails, but generally, how did it make you feel? Very anxious. you know, you you know,
03:11:34 Very anxious. you know, you you know, you text somebody that, oh, I I know you've been cheating on me or you, you know, you've been sleeping with this man, and then you just don't reply for
03:11:45 man, and then you just don't reply for two, three weeks on end or or even a week, you know, you don't reply to any phone calls, any messages. I just I would get very worried. I would get very anxious.
03:11:56 anxious. Um, other times it would be a mixture of that. It would be a mixture of that and feeling just extremely upset and just weeping for hours. Um I would feel
03:12:08 Um I would feel Yeah. I mean that's what Yeah. Yeah. I I was just like in a really heightened state of anxiety and I would also feel terrible about myself. Yeah.
03:12:19 Yeah. Yeah.
03:12:20 Yeah. Why would you feel terrible about yourself?
03:12:22 yourself? Because I couldn't figure out what I'd done wrong. But I must have done something wrong. So I would take time to figure you know
03:12:33 So I would take time to figure you know um examine myself and I would feel at times that maybe my body is you know maybe I just
03:12:44 maybe my body is you know maybe I just even if not intentionally maybe I do give out these vibes to different men to want to have
03:12:56 vibes to different men to want to have sex with me and And so that's what he noticed in a sense. So I felt like, well, maybe something's wrong with me because he's seeing that, you know, even if he's accusing men of sleeping with
03:13:09 if he's accusing men of sleeping with maybe even if I didn't sleep with them, maybe he thought that he maybe he got the vi that that kind of sense or feeling
03:13:17 feeling and so there's something wrong with me and and um so I hated my body. Yeah. So, if I understand correctly, the fact that he had been implying that you had
03:13:29 that he had been implying that you had been asking for it, to want of a better way of putting it, had
03:13:35 had started to influence your thinking. You'd started to take that on board and think, yes, maybe that is the case. Yeah.
03:13:42 Yeah. Um, if we could bring up 38191,
03:13:46 page 15. This is an email from you sent on the 13th of November, 2006. It's tab A2, paragraph two, please.
03:13:58 paragraph two, please. Now, it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, that this is during one of these periods where he's disappeared. Um and you write my in the second
03:14:09 Um and you write my in the second paragraph because I do not really want to write to you because I would rather speak and I don't know what I have done but deeper than that because now you have made me so much more terribly bothered bothered. Bothered bothered
03:14:21 bothered bothered. Bothered bothered bothered that I feel and fear it is not even anything that I have done but who I am in which case it will never make a difference what I do. So I blogged and blogged but it doesn't take away the
03:14:32 blogged but it doesn't take away the pain and the bees cannot undo when I bleed.
03:14:36 bleed. Because you cannot even call to hear me to tell you I miss you. And because you cannot even tell me that you do. I don't know what else to say.
03:14:47 know what else to say. Yeah.
03:14:47 Yeah. I'm sorry, Mario. You're all right. Yeah, I I'll be f Sorry. Yeah. See, this time when I wrote that and the
03:14:58 See, this time when I wrote that and the reference to a Sesame Street song, it was just ABC. And it's because I carved those letters into my skin.
03:15:09 So yeah,
03:15:12 yeah, I'm very sorry. Well, again, I'll ask you about that, but yeah. Okay. So, it's it's
03:15:19 it's incredibly painful. You're in a state of very intense mental distress to the extent that you're harming yourself. Yes.
03:15:31 when you sent this email again, don't worry, just broadly, can you remember how long it had been since you'd heard from him?
03:15:37 from him? Um,
03:15:39 Um, I would imagine, oh, this in November, maybe two weeks. Yeah, it wasn't months at a you know, yeah, we didn't have a very long relationship, but you know, it
03:15:51 very long relationship, but you know, it just felt like forever to me, but even just even just like a two week silence or a week silence. Yeah. Um, let's look at his response to this
03:16:02 Um, let's look at his response to this email. Now, he sent it your your email was the 13th of November 2006 at 7:22. His response actually comes very soon after. This is his email response. So, that's 38191, page 16.
03:16:15 that's 38191, page 16. And he sends it on that same day, the 13th of November. Um, paragraph one,
03:16:24 he says this. I'm not sure even where to begin with this. I think my mood can best be described as bad. And I have no doubt that you are not in any way responsible. I have issues. I have
03:16:35 responsible. I have issues. I have baggage. And sometimes it starts to creep up on me. I think I have the whole jealousy thing beaten. And then I get that tap on my shoulder like a close whisper in the ear. My head begins to ache and my heart
03:16:48 ear. My head begins to ache and my heart soon follows. Why am I jealous? Why am I insecure? But there you have it. I missed you. So just pausing briefly there. Seems there that he is suggesting that the reason he's absented himself is
03:17:00 that the reason he's absented himself is because of jealousy. Yes.
03:17:04 Yes. He continues, "I missed you and when you speak, you sound light and without a care. And I wonder, does it matter that I'm not there?"
03:17:16 I'm not there?" Sounds like a cheesy line from a cheesy song. So I wonder what would Shakespeare write? There is always baggage. Mine, yours, ex-boyfriends, people who like to shake women about,
03:17:28 people who like to shake women about, happy party opportunities missed. Am I dull? Do I bore you? And my head still aches. My heart just burns.
03:17:41 aches. My heart just burns. So, first of all, Ma, he responded quite quickly to that email. Is that typical? Would he tend to respond quite quickly to the emails at least? Yes.
03:17:56 How did you feel when you got this at the time?
03:18:00 the time? Um,
03:18:04 uh, I felt a little relieved that he was okay.
03:18:10 okay. I felt that it explains why he disappears time to time. Uh I felt reassured that
03:18:21 Uh I felt reassured that um he still cared for me. Um
03:18:29 Um yeah,
03:18:32 it's it's very different how I look at it now. But yeah, how do you look at it now? Well, when I look at it now, I'm a bit confused why he writes ex-boyfriends
03:18:43 confused why he writes ex-boyfriends because I did not have ex-boyfriends. and I'd only had one boyfriend in my life then. Um, I know the reference he's talking about
03:18:54 I know the reference he's talking about people who like to shake women about because there was one young man who uh I didn't realize was enamored with me
03:19:05 uh I didn't realize was enamored with me and then um he grabbed me and shook me like a rag doll when he found out that I was interested in somebody else.
03:19:16 I was interested in somebody else. And you talked to Robert Hastings about that. Yes. So why to have that as part of the jealousy is a bit confusing.
03:19:27 of the jealousy is a bit confusing. Um
03:19:32 he seems to start off by saying that it's not your fault. You're not in any way responsible. But then he seems to reproach you when he says, "And when you speak, you sound
03:19:44 he says, "And when you speak, you sound light and without a care." And I wonder does it matter that I'm not there? Um is that an example of him? Well, it appears that he's putting it on
03:19:55 Well, it appears that he's putting it on you that actually you are in some way responsible because you don't seem sufficiently upset when he speaks to you or upset about his not being there. Is that fair? Yeah. And it's it's very much like when
03:20:07 Yeah. And it's it's very much like when he writes about who will take care of Gabriel's tears or things like that where it's that he's the wounded bird and I should take better care of him.
03:20:18 and I should take better care of him. Right. And that was something he said or implied
03:20:21 implied Yes.
03:20:21 Yes. frequently. Yes.
03:20:24 Yes. Um
03:20:26 Um something else he appears to do. He says he has issues and baggage but then he seems to refer disproportionately to your baggage as it were. ex-boyfriends. You've commented on that already. That's
03:20:39 You've commented on that already. That's inaccurate. People who shake you. Um,
03:20:44 Um, can you remember at the time, I mean, you've talked how overall you felt relief at the time. What effect did this have on you in the sense that he seems to make a concession but then withdraw it?
03:20:54 it? Did Did you notice that at the time or not? Were you just so relieved that the No, no, I I I I it just felt like a pattern in a sense that you know I just
03:21:06 pattern in a sense that you know I just some stress happens and then when I email him or I write a blog post sometimes so I had a blog and he uh when he wouldn't email back or
03:21:19 he uh when he wouldn't email back or something but then he'd have a comment on the blog so at least there was some connection that I didn't lose him forever. ever. But at the same time, it was just exhausting.
03:21:30 was just exhausting. I felt like I just had to constantly reassure him. And again, you may have addressed this already, but again, just for the avoidance of doubt, you've referred to
03:21:41 avoidance of doubt, you've referred to and you've agreed that it sounds like that the reason he'd withdrawn is because he'd suspected you of cheating on him.
03:21:49 on him. Yes. Um to what extent did he make you feel that his withdrawal was a punishment for your failings as a partner?
03:22:00 failings as a partner? Um
03:22:05 I don't think he ever
03:22:10 was just very confusing. In a sense it did because then I felt that oh you know I' I've not been very uh forthright enough to really show my love to him you
03:22:22 enough to really show my love to him you know to really know that so that he really knows I care. So um but whether that's a punishment sometimes it felt like a punishment sometimes it did. Um
03:22:37 sometimes it did. Um yeah to what extent um
03:22:42 um I can't even tell in percentage maybe 20% because most of the time I would blame myself. Yeah.
03:22:47 Yeah. Yeah. So uh I would just say like okay this is so it's I don't think that's intentional on his part in a sense like he didn't say oh you it's all your fault but it's just that I felt like oh god
03:22:59 but it's just that I felt like oh god you know like I'm just so inadequate. Yeah.
03:23:04 Yeah. Sir, I'm aware of the time. I think it might be a good time to break for lunch. Certainly. Um, we'll um try and start a minute or two before two, but at any rate at two.
03:23:15 two before two, but at any rate at two. Okay.
03:23:16 Okay. That long enough for you? Yes.
03:23:18 Yes. Good. Okay.