Testimony from Evidence Hearings regarding their experiences and knowledge relevant to the undercover policing inquiry.
00:32:44 Good afternoon, everybody. Uh, this afternoon's proceedings are being broadcast with a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have
00:33:00 room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Yes, Mr. Amble. Continuing with David Hagen's reports, I wonder if we could put up on screen, please, MPS 30142. So, your tab B15,
00:33:24 Mr. Grover, you can see that we are still in 1998 in these reports. 13th of October is the typing date for this particular report. You can see it's titled Movement for Justice. The Movement for Justice was extremely
00:33:38 Movement for Justice was extremely pleased with the announcement by Michael Mansfield QC at the Southern Monitoring Group annual general meeting which called for the formation of a civil rights movement. Now I just want to move to this particular uh period of time.
00:33:50 to this particular uh period of time. the annual general uh meeting that is referred to here presumably is that a meeting that anyone can attend or is it
00:34:01 meeting that anyone can attend or is it only members um of the subtle monitoring group and guests? It's it's open to all public members but people who are targeted are people who have worked with the south monitoring
00:34:15 have worked with the south monitoring group as users as well as supporters. in relation to what is set out here referring to Michael Mansfield's idea
00:34:28 referring to Michael Mansfield's idea quote which enjoys the support of Suresh Grover is for the movement uh to be formed in February 1999 which would be towards the end of the Lawrence inquiry and be a vehicle for
00:34:45 Lawrence inquiry and be a vehicle for all separate family campaigns. Uh so can I ask you about the civil rights movement? What what was your uh recollection of what was being discussed about it at the time and how accurate is what I've just read out?
00:35:02 what I've just read out? There was discussion within the Steven Lawrence family campaign initially
00:35:04 initially uh between Mr. Mansfield, myself, Mr. Khan and others especially the junior barister Martin Sier Margo boy and the family members on what should take place post
00:35:22 post um 99 publication of report um the the things that we were discussing was if there are going to be recommendations made by the report how do we ensure that they're implemented and not just rely on the state to implement them there are
00:35:37 the state to implement them there are many examples examples of reports that have been completed um recommendations are made and they just end up in a shell shelf without any any kind of audit or accountability or enforcement. So
00:35:52 enforcement. So the Lawrence campaign has always been embedded in communities um
00:36:06 embedded in communities um supporting families and this would be an ideal opportunity for us to bring you know hundreds of families who who'd become um invigorated by the revelations in the Steven Lawrence inquiry and thought the possibility of change and wanted to be part of that process.
00:36:19 part of that process. Um so that's how the idea of the civil rights movement came about. We looked at different models from US and South
00:36:30 different models from US and South Africa and India. Um but we didn't want to go ahead of ourselves. We just thought we would announce it at a meeting after the inquiry. Um there was no pressure on Mr. and Mrs.
00:36:45 there was no pressure on Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence to join. Um they were they were discussing different ideas. Mrs. Lawrence wanted to set up a uh a a center uh of architecture in Steven's name because Steven
00:36:57 name because Steven Stevens um you know um Steven wanted to be an architect and she she wanted something in that stuff. U Mr. Lawrence was meeting a lot of
00:37:13 Mr. Lawrence was meeting a lot of families and we didn't think it was fair to put any pressure on the family post the inquiry to be either part of it or not. They could decide be very welcome if they
00:37:27 could decide be very welcome if they wanted and you know the the from 93 to 99 with these pivotal events they are public they're international they're hard they're grinding and they needed to reflect what to do and they should have been given that space and time. So the idea really came from in
00:37:40 time. So the idea really came from in the Lawrence family campaign who were with the Lawrenes. So there are potentially two things there but you the Lawrence inquiry recommendations ensuring that the recommendations are actioned and that
00:37:53 recommendations are actioned and that being one of the reasons for this civil rights movement. But in terms of and the name itself suggests it and you've already referred previously to uh
00:38:05 already referred previously to uh inspiration from the USA. It conjures up images of Martin Luther King, the civil rights movement in in the United States and mass demonstrations with thousands and thousands of people. What what
00:38:16 and thousands of people. What what practically was in your mind the civil rights movement? What would it consist of? Would it be those people with membership cards or
00:38:33 membership cards or Yeah, there would be membership of people. There'd be a meeting that inaugurated that uh civil rights movement.
00:38:34 movement. Um there would be um a national coordinating committee elected at that meeting and you know we
00:38:45 elected at that meeting and you know we we looked at we looked at models across the country and also we reflected on how our work uh in which areas our work had been
00:38:58 in which areas our work had been successful. I'm not just talking about the south of mountain group. Mr. Mansville had been involved in the Irish cases in the bloody Sunday inquiry. Um, and we wanted to look at how it was possible without little finances to
00:39:13 possible without little finances to sustain that movement. Just calling itself movement doesn't mean it's movement. It has to have constellation of different forces coming together. But we needed something structural and
00:39:26 we needed something structural and something that would gel people together and also sustain over a long period of time. Well, in in the report, I mean, the next sentence says, "The MFJ have always campaigned for a mass public order demonstration along with the
00:39:39 order demonstration along with the formation of such a movement and it goes on and with uh options receding for 1998, they this may provide them with that opportunity." So, this report
00:39:48 report seems to indicate well this is the suggestion of the civil rights movement suggested by Michael Mansfield. it has your support and the MFJ
00:40:04 your support and the MFJ uh talking about the fact that it would dovetail with their idea for a mass public order demonstration. Is this idea of a a mass public order demonstration to continue the momentum of the interest in the Steven Lawrence inquiry? Is is
00:40:18 in the Steven Lawrence inquiry? Is is that a discussion that you recall at the time?
00:40:22 time? The MFJ wanted a demonstration. They never came to me and said they were trying or advocating of building a civil rights movement. That discussion took place within the Steam Lawrence campaign. It's unfair to say that it's
00:40:36 campaign. It's unfair to say that it's just led and suggested by Mr. Mansfield. It's a collective discussion that takes place and we are brainstorming and we are thinking of way we should do uh what we should do and there are three things we're trying to unite. One is how
00:40:47 we're trying to unite. One is how lawyers get involved, how families affected get involved and how activists get involved. That is the that is the three tripartite formation that was developed in the
00:40:58 formation that was developed in the Lawrence campaign which was successful. So we wanted lawyers involved uh lawyers who believed that you could change things using legislation and in the
00:41:09 things using legislation and in the Lawrence campaign they had lawyers who want who believe passionately in that. they were willing to work with members of public and activists to do that and at the heart of it ethically we wanted
00:41:24 at the heart of it ethically we wanted family justice campaigns to lead it. Um so it's very difficult for families to do that because they they are not just grieving but they're also trying to achieve outcomes in their own quest for justice. But we thought having a
00:41:37 justice. But we thought having a political movement in the way that the civil rights movement had developed in Ireland and in United States would be manageable without causing too much
00:41:50 manageable without causing too much drama. The families providing the sport structures were there. So that's that discussion took place within the Steven Lawrence family campaign and it got announced after the inquiry. The MFJ was
00:42:03 announced after the inquiry. The MFJ was only interested when they approached me. I'm not saying there were discussions taking place. I'm not party to that. It's about their idea of demonstration. We weren't thinking of a demonstration. The ideas being suggested, we were
00:42:16 The ideas being suggested, we were thinking of how we move it forward. And we wanted a peopleled movement
00:42:18 movement um to take ownership post Lawrence on the anti-racist agenda. That's how we were trying to build it. So, so was there a divergent? Your focus, as you've always said, was on the
00:42:32 focus, as you've always said, was on the the family, what is best for the family? you talking about sort of setting up potentially a political movement, but at this time your sense was that the movement for justice uh wanted to focus
00:42:46 movement for justice uh wanted to focus more on say the demonstration uh side of things.
00:42:54 things. Yeah. The the the discussions that took place there were not many between ENL or whatever whatever it was called at that time it wasn't I can't remember the name and movement of justice and myself was about a demonstration. It was never about civil rights movement. Once it got
00:43:06 about civil rights movement. Once it got announced, they wanted to be part of it. Well, if we move to the the next report I want to refer you to is sir your tab B18. It's MPS treb 1643.
00:43:22 B18. It's MPS treb 1643. So this is right at the end of 1998 now. So the 21st of December 1998 and you can see the title of this report is now left-wing activities
00:43:35 is now left-wing activities relating uh to the Lawrence inquiry. And if we just focus on that first paragraph, uh matters relating to the Lawrence inquiry have died down amongst left-wing groups with the approach of
00:43:46 left-wing groups with the approach of Christmas. Interest will be renewed in the new year at a time that will coincide with the inquiry's findings. To summarize matters as they stand at present, a great opportunity is seen to have been lost due to the infighting
00:44:01 have been lost due to the infighting within these desperate groups. Had the Lawren's called for a civil rights march, then it is not unrealistic to imagine that 100,000 people may have taken to the streets. There still remains an outside chance that this may
00:44:19 remains an outside chance that this may materialize once the inquiry chairman uh releases his report. So, just pausing there. Does that reflect in terms of again the question about the accuracy of David Hagen's reporting that that this
00:44:32 David Hagen's reporting that that this was an issue that there's potentially a missed opportunity that uh had there been more support there could have been a civil rights uh march amounting to some 100,000 people taken to the streets but there wasn't enough support there
00:44:46 but there wasn't enough support there was infighting. It's certainly the view of the Socialist Workers Party and I'm
00:44:57 of the Socialist Workers Party and I'm going to name the individuals um that we should have a march at the date of very soon after the publication of the report. Um was it a missed opportunity to have a march? Possibly. Um but you have to have
00:45:08 march? Possibly. Um but you have to have a demand which people rally around. It's not sufficient just to say oh the Lawrence inquiry has found this to be institutional racis that in itself will bring people together but is not a
00:45:20 bring people together but is not a demand to change something effectively. So
00:45:22 So [clears throat] um the discussion that really [snorts] was taking place at the center was what we should be doing with the commissioner what we should be demanding with the commissioner and
00:45:37 demanding with the commissioner and that's actually taking a lot of people's time within the campaign in other words should we call for his resignation for example and I think that is what is petrifying the undercover officers and
00:45:48 petrifying the undercover officers and rather than reporting on that they are really looking at issues that are you know the march would be important but sorry to interrupt you there what was petrifying the undercover officers in your view
00:46:03 your view I mean just imagine I mean if the publication of the report founds finds as we know the failure to investigate properly is really to do with three things lack of uh senior leadership um institutional racism and failures due to different missed
00:46:19 failures due to different missed opportunities for the first time if the MAT police are finding institutional races that legitimizes years and years of failures uh and legitimizes the struggles that black and
00:46:36 legitimizes the struggles that black and brown people have carried over over over over decades. uh and if that led to the dismissing of the commissioner uh I think there was concern within the central government as well as the senior political officers that would seriously
00:46:52 political officers that would seriously and damage uh the metropolitan police's credibility and even create greater distrust between black communities and and the police forces. That's actually what petrified them.
00:47:07 what petrified them. in terms of that finding McFersonen's finding of institutional racism c could you just help us because
00:47:22 c could you just help us because of its importance c could you just help us with at the time the impact that it had on you and the groups around you when when that was made clear by McFersonen when he made that finding. Can you just bring us back to that
00:47:33 Can you just bring us back to that moment in time and the reaction of you and those around you? [gasps] I mean it's it's a pivotal process within the inquiry. Um you it was obvious as the inquiry
00:47:53 Um you it was obvious as the inquiry went on that there were failures in the process. There are failures in the behavior and attitudes of police officers. the failures in how the stop and searches led to disproportionity of
00:48:04 and searches led to disproportionity of people being arrested. There was history of um black and brown people um disproportionately affected, adversely affected from the time they were arrested to the charges that they
00:48:16 were arrested to the charges that they were facing, the length of imprisonment that they endured and to the deaths of custody that took place and and that is
00:48:29 custody that took place and and that is replicated in other public services from education to employment etc. Um and I think there's there's a lot of discussion with the inquiry and we know that from Richard Stones is he's one of the assessors uh publication of the horse trading that takes place between
00:48:41 horse trading that takes place between the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the inquiry itself whether um how it should be defined and what the impact of that would be within the within the society itself. So what it's trying to
00:48:56 society itself. So what it's trying to do to cut into into condense it is that um
00:49:03 it's trying to um explain why police forces
00:49:08 forces treat black communities pluralistically differently and adversely. Why their activi through their activities and engagement. um why black officers are treated differently within the police service
00:49:24 differently within the police service itself. And it's also trying to work out why
00:49:33 why um people suffer racism and bias when in when they come in contact with with the police service itself. and why black communities including victims of crime
00:49:45 communities including victims of crime um have lost trust and confidence in the police service. So it's trying to explain that and it comes with a definition. Uh I don't do you want me to repeat the definition or
00:49:56 repeat the definition or but it comes out with a definition which by the way is accepted by the government. It's allowed by the home secretary is accepted by all public authorities and it talks about the collective failures of an organization
00:50:08 collective failures of an organization to provide a professional service to BME communities. It looks at how that can be detected uh through
00:50:23 detected uh through uh the process through attitudes and behaviors and and and it tries to mitigate um the racism and bias within the police force. And it also tries to explain the elements of unwitting racism that may
00:50:38 elements of unwitting racism that may exist in the uh or unc unconscious bias that uh that may exist in the police service. why all of that disadvantage black minority communities. Um and then
00:50:50 black minority communities. Um and then the you know the debates goes further. I mean Cassie's report which looks at police attitudes and the culture gives four I think tests of institutional racism. Um this is Baron Casey's report
00:51:07 racism. Um this is Baron Casey's report and it it says that the test include are there um racists uh and prejudice and racist attitudes within the police force. Is that does that exist? That's a test that she says
00:51:18 that exist? That's a test that she says should be should be should be looked at. uh are offices from uh racialized groups um
00:51:29 um uh suffer racism uh and is that routinely ignored uh dismissed or or not even spoken about?
00:51:40 dismissed or or not even spoken about? That's the second test she adds to the institutional racism. Um is racism
00:51:58 institutional racism. Um is racism um and racial bias reinforced within the organization through lack of action or otherwise? and and it's then looks at whether the police force uh
00:52:03 uh over overzealous when it comes to crimes committed against by black people or black communities or racialized group and is they're underprotected when the crimes against them take place. So those are the four tests that Baron's case
00:52:15 are the four tests that Baron's case gives it and she and she encapsulates that within the legislation that exists primarily under section I think 49 of the equality act 2010 and she gives the
00:52:29 the equality act 2010 and she gives the three indicators of why that needs to be done. So that's that's the basic definition of institutional how you detect it
00:52:36 detect it and and you've you've already recited it the the McFersonen definition of institutional racism. So the collective
00:52:49 institutional racism. So the collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their color, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behavior which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance,
00:53:03 through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantages minority ethnic people. that that definition given by McFersonen of course it's it's always difficult to encapsulate anything in
00:53:17 difficult to encapsulate anything in such a definition but after all of this time
00:53:20 time firstly what is your view as to the appropriateness of that definition and secondly I want to go on to ask you about a concept that that you have
00:53:31 about a concept that that you have introduced in your statement that of institutionalized racism and the distinction between the two so that Mcfirst person definition. What is your view today of the the
00:53:44 What is your view today of the the appropriateness of that as a definition for institutional racism? It's a definition that was advanced and defined
00:53:58 that was advanced and defined through 40 59 days of listening to evidence.
00:53:59 evidence. uh it was defined by lawyers, by academics, by people giving uh their views at very high level. It looked at how the American definition of
00:54:12 how the American definition of instituted racism take place, what the origins of it are, how Lord Khan looked at the issue of swampy wine. So it actually did a lot of research legally, socially um on that definition. So I
00:54:32 socially um on that definition. So I think not is it relevant, it needs to be reinforced and applied in this inquiry. Um what's happened since is that you know there's a golden period after the Lawrence where Mr. Straw when he announces the findings of the Lawren
00:54:45 announces the findings of the Lawren Inquiry believes that that definition and the finding of the Lawren means that Britain can be the beacon on race relations in the whole world. That's the that's what the speech he gives in parliament. So there's actually a lot of hope that there'll be swift
00:55:00 a lot of hope that there'll be swift action against racial violence. There'll be recommendation, you know, there's changes in legislation on the racial relations act which bring the police service into the orbit of racial relations act. Um there's redefinition
00:55:13 relations act. Um there's redefinition on um issues to do with double jeopardy etc etc. There's very precise definitions of what a race incident is. It's no longer the prerogative of the police to define it. any victim or
00:55:26 police to define it. any victim or person can define it. Um it deals with under reporting. It deals with how
00:55:37 under reporting. It deals with how evidence needs to be collected. It deals with um what the role of education, the role of CPS and how and how family is going to be dealt with. It's it's a seinal historic report. Um it's it's not just done by lawyers. there's a lot of feeding
00:55:47 feeding uh lot of research huge amount of representations by hundreds of different people including families in part two of the inquiry. So what's so there's a period from 199
00:56:00 period from 199 right up to 2001 where I think and I'm person is quite critical of police where
00:56:13 person is quite critical of police where I think there is actually a a response a real drive to change the culture within the police force. uh I I haven't mentioned the issue of you know retention and recruitment of police officers etc. But that shift takes place that changes totally after 2001 because of the twin tower bombing and then the
00:56:28 of the twin tower bombing and then the London bombing. All the resources that were captured to deal with racial violence go into anti-terrorism and everything is lost and when when there's a change in leadership at the home
00:56:39 a change in leadership at the home secretary level m from Mr. Sto to Mr. blanket, it's totally dismissed and thrown out of the window. So we go we go back into areas of pre-lorence of [snorts] Trump of of advocacy agencies
00:56:58 [snorts] Trump of of advocacy agencies like ours to convince police officers to take the issue seriously and and there are individual officers who take it seriously but as an institution it begins to start failing again once again and I think just finish with that I think not this government but the last
00:57:17 think not this government but the last government put a huge of emphasis to ra not dismantle institutional racism but actually dismantle the definition of institutional racis racism through reports that it conducted you know uh etc. So I think it's a contentious issue but I think it's absolutely necessary
00:57:30 but I think it's absolutely necessary um to look at the prevalence of racism
00:57:41 um to look at the prevalence of racism in society at every different level in especially institutionalized state racism and it is not possible to understand the motives of
00:57:53 understand the motives of public officers like undercover officers who serve the public in order possible to understand their motives their behavior
00:57:54 behavior their decisions unless you look at the institutional racism towards unless you look at their attitude towards black justice campaigns and understand the definition of institutional racism.
00:58:12 definition of institutional racism. So you are in a unique position because you have described in detail and we've looked at the the various reports of your involvement in the Steven Lawrence inquiry.
00:58:19 inquiry. You've described the impact of the findings and recommendations of that inquiry. You refer to a golden period. You use the word hope. And then here you are again in another public inquiry
00:58:39 are again in another public inquiry in relation to uh findings of racism. And what would you say in to this inquiry about uh how to avoid what you've just described that a public inquiry is held, findings are made,
00:58:53 inquiry is held, findings are made, there's this window of hope uh and then it's recommendations are not always uh implemented and then history takes over. What would your what would your um
00:59:12 What would your what would your um advice as it were to this inquiry about how to ensure that uh findings are are action? What would you say given your unique experience? I I I think that it should start from the premise that an inquiry
00:59:26 an inquiry led by server William McFersonen looked at this issue specifically on how police respond to black communities thoroughly and robustly and came to the conclusion with
00:59:38 robustly and came to the conclusion with a lot of challenges and difficulties and lot of painstaking discussions about what that would mean and impact it would have it it it it
00:59:50 have it it it it defined it and it'd be absolutely I think
00:59:52 I think disappointing if a similar inquiry doesn't accept that definition and if it doesn't it needs to explain publicly why it doesn't. Um
01:00:05 it doesn't. Um it's it's not a long it's not an issue about you know there are two kinds of racism that people really look at. One is personal attitudes and behaviors and
01:00:17 is personal attitudes and behaviors and etc. Now those can be changed. It's not a problem. Sometimes they have ne they have positive impact, sometimes they have negative impact. But what had what what McFersonen does and remember he's a high court judge who has no experience
01:00:28 high court judge who has no experience of dealing with race violence. And I've said earlier that we asked him to recluse himself because of his track record on immigration cases. He sits
01:00:39 record on immigration cases. He sits through that. He just doesn't understand the pain. And you have to go beyond the pain of what the families go through. Everybody keeps saying, "I understand the pain." Yes, you do. And I grateful that you do, but how do you want the pain to stop? And you can't just do it
01:00:55 pain to stop? And you can't just do it put an elasttol blast on it. You have to change the culture that causes that pain.
01:00:56 pain. And if you don't address it at an institutional structure level, you don't deal with the causes of it. Um, so I would practically ask you to look at
01:01:07 would practically ask you to look at what Cassie has said and apply those four tests within that inquiry. I can send them to you. They're, you know, publicly available. Our undercover
01:01:22 publicly available. Our undercover office under with within the undercover offices and their management are there officers who have racist views and bias against black people. I think there is enough evidence. I have read I'm not able that there are examples of that. You can test it out in the inquiry. Are the officers uh are there
01:01:36 inquiry. Are the officers uh are there complaints of under cover officers and how they look at black communities, how they address them, how they how they look at victims. You know, one of the
01:01:51 look at victims. You know, one of the most appalling things I've heard today is how HN91, HN 81 explains how HN81
01:01:59 how HN81 describes Mr. Lawrence as a boring speaker. I know it doesn't doesn't may may not mean something to someone. But here is a a father who was inspired
01:02:11 here is a a father who was inspired hundreds thousands of people. He's not just talking about grief. He's talking about how to change. And it's very difficult for people in that
01:02:30 difficult for people in that circumstances who are always looked upon as problem. You know, the issue that we were facing in 1991 was that the state saw black people as a problem, not racism. We had to change that culture. And HN81
01:02:41 And HN81 describing Mr. Lawrence as a boring speaker totally diminishes his contribution to to bringing the inquiry to the forefront of British society. How he fought the case.
01:02:52 he fought the case. It's it's not a it's it's just not a descriptive. He's saying that to the
01:03:06 descriptive. He's saying that to the managers and he's saying to the managers actually this is what he's saying. He's saying Mr. Lawrence cannot think for himself.
01:03:12 himself. I I want to break off just for um a few minutes from David Hagen's report. We're going through the various reports because of the issues that um you have just raised and I want to um
01:03:24 and I want to um ask you questions about what another undercover officer Peter Francis has said in in contrast. And I wonder if we could please just turn now to Peter
01:03:36 could please just turn now to Peter Francis's witness statement. It's UCPI
01:03:51 Francis's witness statement. It's UCPI 50 and then 36012. So it's UCPI 36012. It's page 99 of his statement uh paragraph 601.
01:04:04 Now here Peter Francis says another heated discussion was about the pending McFersonen inquiry. My view was that the inquiry should be made aware of the
01:04:18 inquiry should be made aware of the parameters of my deployment and the fact I had been tasked from 1993 to gather any intelligence to help put a stop to
01:04:29 any intelligence to help put a stop to the anti-racist campaigns in particular the Steven Lawrence family campaign because of the concerns about public order and subversion surrounding the campaigns. Bob Lambert has acknowledged that those discussions took place,
01:04:44 that those discussions took place, although I do not understand why he has stated my position being one of insisting that we did not tell the inquiry. It was in fact the opposite and the discussion about it felt hostile and heated. So here we have Peter Francis
01:05:02 heated. So here we have Peter Francis indicating firstly that he'd been tasked from 1993
01:05:10 from 1993 to gather he says in his statement here any intelligence to help to put a stop to the anti-racist campaigns in particular Steven Lawrence family campaign because of concerns about public order and subversion. So in relation to uh and wanting to uh
01:05:23 relation to uh and wanting to uh discuss this and bring this to uh McFersonen's attention, what is your reaction to reading uh that from this particular officer?
01:05:37 particular officer? I think he's right that his deployment and the fact that he was tossed to gather intelligence should have been made aware should have been uh revealed to the inquiry.
01:05:48 to the inquiry. Is that what he's saying? He is saying that. So he said I think that he's absolutely right about that. I think there would have been major consequences if that had been done. I think it's a it's an absolute
01:06:02 done. I think it's a it's an absolute failure for that not to do. certainly would have had um an impact on the definition of institutional racism for example um because it's no longer unwitting racism. This is the police force who've not just let the family
01:06:17 force who've not just let the family down but actually has decided to spy on it and it's a conscious decision to support their campaign whether they succeeded or not whether the conditions existed is immaterial and and then to gather gathering in intelligence on the
01:06:35 gather gathering in intelligence on the Lawren family campaign and their view of how they viewed uh the inquiry itself and what was happening. where they thought the weaknesses were, what the strengths were and the likely
01:06:49 what the strengths were and the likely outcome at the end. That is that is that is uh is sensational stuff. Well, here he is just talking about at the time the pending McFersonen inquiry. So before it's taken place and he's
01:07:01 So before it's taken place and he's talking about his tasking from as early as 1993. Could you just help us again with that time period? So uh from 1993
01:07:14 with that time period? So uh from 1993 199 94 95 96 97 98 into the inquiry what was the the public calling for an inquiry. Could could you just bring that to life for us at the time?
01:07:29 to life for us at the time? The Steven Lawren family campaign was certainly calling for a public inquiry from the time I was involved. Um, we actually went to the Notting Hill Carnival in 93 August. Um, with a petition for having a public inquiry. Um,
01:07:44 inquiry. Um, we I mean the the drive for that was the the decision by the CPS to drop the
01:07:55 the decision by the CPS to drop the charges. I think that was in 93 itself. maybe bit later but they uh and I I think
01:07:57 think there were I think there were two or three things one was that most of us didn't believe that the police would ever charge the suspects
01:08:11 ever charge the suspects um and we also believed that there would be there would be a resistance by the CPS to review the case properly and we also believe that the case itself
01:08:26 also believe that the case itself given the location of it in Welling um which had experienced four previous or three previous racial murders Roen Adams Goody Bangal and Roy
01:08:41 murders Roen Adams Goody Bangal and Roy Dugal and the fact that the BNP bookshop was there and there were demonstrations and the fact that in the number of hate
01:08:52 and the fact that in the number of hate crimes had doubled in a period of 1993. Uh and in fact, Granny in the anti-racist movement was known as a racist murder capital of for violence
01:09:07 racist murder capital of for violence etc. So all of that together uh we began to we began to advocate for a public inquiry. Uh I wasn't clear how that would end up. I wasn't even clear about the framework of the inquiry but we thought it would be it it was time given
01:09:19 thought it would be it it was time given the I mean there's a lot of there were a lot of racist murders that have been taking place which are acknowledged by the police that have been taking place I can name some of them there some of them
01:09:33 can name some of them there some of them are some of them are in my statement but the depth of the feeling the frequency of the attacks the fact that the Lawrence's case was yet another failure despite people from the CRA advocating that it should be dealt with despite the fact that you
01:09:44 dealt with despite the fact that you have a world statesman saying look at this properly having little confidence in the state to deal with it and that's how we came to that decision of having a public inquiry
01:09:57 public inquiry whilst we have uh Peter Francis's statement to hand there just a few other paragraphs of his statement I would like to ask you about I wonder if we could please go to page 41 paragraph 242
01:10:21 and I want to ask you really for your your reaction and the the impact that it has on you reading this. So this is about a
01:10:32 about a manager in the SDS HN86 as described by Peter Francis. So Peter Francis in his statement says that HN86 was also incredibly racist. His view of the black justice campaigns was that they were unable to think for themselves and
01:10:47 unable to think for themselves and therefore they must all be being led by the more radical left-wing groups looking to advance their own agendas. In private, he was always referring to black people as monkeys. He wanted to
01:11:02 black people as monkeys. He wanted to know who these groups were and what they were really doing. At the time I was being deployed into the field, the biggest black justice campaign was the Lawrence family campaign. HN86 asked me to do what nobody else had yet managed
01:11:16 to do what nobody else had yet managed to do. Find out who was in the campaign. Were they or someone else? I was plugging an intelligence gap. Now in
01:11:28 plugging an intelligence gap. Now in terms of what is described there a a and one of the uh issues one of the questions of facts that the inquiry is examining is this particular officer
01:11:40 examining is this particular officer Peter Francis's credibility but in terms of what he describes there what is your reaction reading that from uh an undercover officer describing one of his managers
01:11:49 managers is I'm outraged by um describing black people as monkeys is is is
01:11:59 is is dehumanizing them. Um
01:12:08 I'm going to just refer to two paragraphs further down. It's paragraph 244.
01:12:10 244. On the same page, Peter Francis continues here. At the same time, I was asked to find out any information that could be used to stop or subvert the campaign. That tasking
01:12:29 or subvert the campaign. That tasking came directly from HN86, but was also repeated to me higher up by Chief Superintendent Bob Potter. Bob Potter was also a horribly racist person. He would come to the STS meetings and then
01:12:46 would come to the STS meetings and then we would have one-to-one discussions. He would use the n-word to describe the campaigns and impress on me the importance of stopping these quotes. Effing and then the n-word. Both HN86 and Potter made clear to me that higher
01:13:03 and Potter made clear to me that higher up they wanted the campaigns to go away. I do not think this tasking would have been written down. Even once I was in the field, I would usually get bits of paper or post-it notes in my bag with
01:13:14 paper or post-it notes in my bag with requests for information. So as you were describing your involvement in the Lawrence inquiry, um I if this is true, this is the taskings that were given to
01:13:26 this is the taskings that were given to uh Peter Francis. What is your reaction to that please?
01:13:36 You know, I I I don't know what to say because
01:13:38 because if this is absolutely if this is accurate, and I no reason to believe it's not accurate, then there's no difference between Bob Porter using the
01:13:49 difference between Bob Porter using the N word and the people who killed Steven Lawrence.
01:13:57 One last paragraph before we move away from Peter Francis's statement is uh paragraph 896. uh please which is on page 141.
01:14:10 So here in his statement Peter Francis states it was wrong of special branch and the SDS to assume that the Lawrence family campaign was being led by anyone.
01:14:22 family campaign was being led by anyone. In the extremely racist words of HN86 in 1993,
01:14:24 1993, there was a fear that the quote monkeys were being organized unquote and that it was our job to stop it quote before all the monkeys in London get out of their
01:14:38 the monkeys in London get out of their trees close quote. This is not language or sentiment that was ever repeated to me by any other SDS managers. And I find it understandable that Keith Edmonson
01:14:50 it understandable that Keith Edmonson expresses outrage in his account as I do not think he would have shared those views of the black justice campaigns. And so what Peter Francis is doing here
01:15:03 And so what Peter Francis is doing here is uh setting out the racist words used by HN86, but indicating that it wasn't language or sentiment that was repeated by other managers. So
01:15:14 by other managers. So here indicating in relation to that officer what is your again reaction to what is set out in this paragraph? [clears throat]
01:15:25 [clears throat] Do I believe this? Yes. Um I you know I know examples in 7981 where police officers have steamed their car
01:15:41 police officers have steamed their car windows and put NF when they've seen us. I've seen examples of NF being a reference to National Front. Um I I've seen examples including towards
01:15:54 I I've seen examples including towards me where they've shown me Ace of Spades because Ace of Spades is a derogatory term for black people. Um monkeys was is a regularly is a is a frequent used by
01:16:09 a regularly is a is a frequent used by racist within within farright groupings. Um, I I think
01:16:18 I think it's, you know, it's I'm somebody who's gone through racial violence and I've been called the P word all my life. So, it's just it's just
01:16:29 all my life. So, it's just it's just it's I mean, it's it's I mean, I'm very angry about it. But I think what I'm more angry about is that his description is not about just individual officers. I think the set of examples that is given
01:16:45 think the set of examples that is given is the existence of a culture within the metadata police and and that's that's the real problem and unless unless unless that's addressed openly it just lingers and thrives secretly within the force especially when it's very high
01:16:58 force especially when it's very high hierarchical and militaristic in its formations. So junior office can do what they want. And if senior officers have this attitude, it gives junior officers
01:17:10 this attitude, it gives junior officers the the carter blanch or the openness to be even more racist.
01:17:16 With that as as the context, what we have just a few paragraphs of Peter Francis's statement, I want to continue with just the last few of Hagen's reports. We'll deal with a couple of other reports from other
01:17:27 couple of other reports from other officers before uh moving on further. So I wonder if we could please turn now. So it's at your tab B20. It's MPS treble 1707 please.
01:18:04 uh in relation to this [clears throat] uh statement, I want to ask you about uh what is set out um here we can see the public order implications following publication of the Lawrence inquiry report and other events. We're new moving now in terms of date to the beginning of uh 1999.
01:18:19 beginning of uh 1999. And here we can see towards the bottom of the second paragraph, it says, "Sirish Grover from the monitoring group, formerly SMG, and the main
01:18:32 group, formerly SMG, and the main mouthpiece and communicator for Neville Lawrence throughout this affair, has maintained contacts with all of the groups involved in this campaign, including MFJ. and although privately he would favor a more fiferous confrontational approach with groups such as MFJ and then it's the this phrasing he is dictated to by Neville
01:18:48 phrasing he is dictated to by Neville and sees a safer long-term future under the Lawrence umbrella. So, this reference to you being dictated to by Neville Lawrence and you seeing a safer longtime future under the Lawrence umbrella,
01:19:00 umbrella, what is your uh reaction to that expressed in that way, please?
01:19:11 that expressed in that way, please? I'm I'm not the mouthpiece and communicator for Mr. Lawrence. He can communicate very well himself
01:19:23 communicate very well himself probably better than me as far as his as his pain and his campaign is concerned. Um yes I did as I've said maintained contacts with all the groups involved in the campaign uh in the
01:19:35 involved in the campaign uh in the broader campaign. Um, that was my task. Uh,
01:19:36 Uh, and
01:19:38 and do I favor a more veriferous confrontential approach with groups such as the MFG? Not at all. He's I'm not Mr. Lawrence is not calming down. I'm
01:19:49 Mr. Lawrence is not calming down. I'm not somebody who loses their temper. Um, I'm actually quite respectful of the MFJ and and all the groups that come. As I said earlier, um, they have absolute
01:20:00 said earlier, um, they have absolute right to come. It's about what is the outcome that you want from the inquiry. Why is it pivotal at the moment? What does it mean for black communities? And
01:20:14 does it mean for black communities? And more more importantly, what does it mean in terms of the change in culture where black brown people get confidence in the justice system? Um is that reformist? It could be. But I think um there is
01:20:31 could be. But I think um there is nothing wrong with developing reforms if they are implemented problem. Am I asking for more legislation? Not really. Um I'm just asking very simple thing which is the police officers to get rid
01:20:46 which is the police officers to get rid of their bias and racism or misogyny and act as professional individuals when they put the uniform on. That's that's a basic thing that we're asking. But there's a culture of racism steeped in
01:20:58 there's a culture of racism steeped in the Metropolitan Police and other police forces which is so difficult to eradicate and unless unless you put it out in the open and reveal it and expose
01:21:09 out in the open and reveal it and expose it, it's very difficult to change it. Um and I
01:21:18 and I the issue is not about militancy between MFJ and US. I think the officer doesn't understand the differences. Um, you know, as I said in my statement, we've been involved in public uh order
01:21:30 been involved in public uh order situations where we've defended our communities. I've been involved in Bradford 12 campaign where people have used petrol bombs to defend their communities. Uh I I'm not somebody who
01:21:43 communities. Uh I I'm not somebody who advocates violence, but there was never ever
01:21:50 ever an instance apart from one time uh where one somebody advocated violence in a public meeting but there were members of MFJ nobody listened to them. There was never a situation where either the SWPP or the MFJ said to me actually you are
01:22:06 or the MFJ said to me actually you are doing something which isn't going to get us a result is diluting the issue of racism and we are not going to hold the police to account. So um
01:22:18 police to account. So um and you know I'm actually worsted with how the I'm I'm not unsympathetic to progressive politics. I I I see myself as progressive. Uh so I I think is it's a misrepresentation
01:22:29 a misrepresentation of what is existing. Um I I am not worried about the movement for justice. They're putting some position forward
01:22:42 They're putting some position forward and I'm saying this is really up to the Lawrenes and my view is with the Lawrenes.
01:22:46 Lawrenes. I want to ask you um about factual accuracy. There's a reference to a warning uh at the bottom of this report. it six lines up from the bottom of the page where it says it is worth reflecting that Newm and Saddle
01:22:59 reflecting that Newm and Saddle monitoring group provide legal and financial assistance to many of the campaigns and have warned the lead figures in these groups that they risk
01:23:22 figures in these groups that they risk losing those benefits should they employ the services of the MFJ to press their case. So this this point here about subtle
01:23:30 subtle uh monitoring group providing assistance to other campaigns legal and financial. Um the suggestion that there was a warning uh that well this those benefits may disappear
01:23:48 may disappear uh if the services of the movement for justice were used instead. Is that accurate? Could you help us with um
01:23:48 um the factual correctness of that? It's absolute rubbish. Um I think the MHA was involved in supporting Dwayne Brooks. Um
01:24:02 Brooks. Um never said anything that they shouldn't support Mr. Brooks. He needed the
01:24:12 support Mr. Brooks. He needed the support he needed. He was a survivor of a attack. He was being vilified by the police. Um and if he had faith in the MFJ, you know, fantastic. I have no issue with that. I I don't know any campaign that came to the inquiry said we want to employ the MFGs
01:24:30 we want to employ the MFGs MFJS to press the case. Uh it you know so
01:24:31 so I'm I'm trying to remember sir who were the campaign family campaigns that were coming up to during the Lawrence inquiry. I can tell you that I don't
01:24:44 inquiry. I can tell you that I don't know a single campaign that came to the inquiry. I'm not saying there aren't that were getting the service m obviously they were um who who said to me or said to the south of the neoy
01:24:57 me or said to the south of the neoy project that um they would like MFG and us to support it. Um, all right. In in terms of what is set out there, you've made it clear that
01:25:08 out there, you've made it clear that that is inaccurate. But if we turn over the page, page two, the penultimate paragraph there on page two, which refers to the monitoring group which is organizing the Blair Peach demonstration, 20th anniversary of his death on the 24th of April, 1999, uh,
01:25:22 death on the 24th of April, 1999, uh, will be viewed as being synonymous with the Lawrence death and will therefore unite all of the disperate groups under one banner. Suresh Grover who is the organizer of this event will positively contribute to ensuring that the day
01:25:37 contribute to ensuring that the day passes off without disorder. However, given the large number of groups and individuals who are likely to attend this march, the potential for disorder is high. [snorts] Would you accept that to hear that David Hagen's reporting is accurate and
01:25:50 Hagen's reporting is accurate and correct that you as organizer will positively contribute to ensuring that the day passes off without disorder? I remember organizing the 10th
01:26:07 I remember organizing the 10th anniversary march with very large number of people which is reported in one of the undercover offices uh during the black beach 24th of April 1999
01:26:18 24th of April 1999 we had a meeting in South on BL beach we've done that until the 40th anniversary
01:26:29 until the 40th anniversary I I actually remember what I was doing on the 23rd and 24th of April 99. It wasn't organizing a demonstration on the 16th of April. I got a call from the family of Elizabeth Chowo
01:26:43 family of Elizabeth Chowo uh which is in my statement. I don't go through it. And actually we were searching for Elizabeth Chowo on the 22nd and 23rd of April 99. So unless somebody can show me the evidence,
01:26:54 somebody can show me the evidence, there's a leaflet organizing the march on 20th anniversary and maybe my age has got to me now. Uh I don't remember a demonstration on the 20th anniversary. Definitely remember a
01:27:11 20th anniversary. Definitely remember a very large demonstration. But would you accept that here if it was suggested that well here David Hagen isn't is not exaggerating
01:27:22 David Hagen isn't is not exaggerating he's not portraying you falsely as a as a rabble rouser he's um specifically stating that you will positively contribute to ensure that the day passes off without disorder. So in terms of the
01:27:38 off without disorder. So in terms of the the the tone and the what he set set out there would you accept that he is being [snorts] fair if cannot recall that particular event the description of you is a fair one
01:27:50 is a fair one I'm grateful for him to say that I won't be part of any disorder but the context of this is that somebody else is suggesting and I'm countering that so I don't know who he's suggesting is going to create disorder at the Blade Peach demonstration on 23 anyway. So
01:28:02 Peach demonstration on 23 anyway. So that's what I'm struggling with in terms of answering your question. Yes, I I would not take part in disorder as I said unless it's self-defense but but I don't know whether anybody even on the 10th anniversary was suggesting
01:28:19 10th anniversary was suggesting disorder. Um you know you know there are certain things with family campaigns where you just don't do things in terms of disorder. um by remembering them. The last thing
01:28:30 um by remembering them. The last thing you want to do in Steven's case is have a demonstration which ends up in disorder on Blair Peach. It's an open wound for us because nobody's ever been charged with his murder despite 40
01:28:42 charged with his murder despite 40 years. The last thing I would do in his memory is just go out wild and create disorder. And I don't think anybody in South would do that. Well, a last report I want to ask you about in terms of David Hagen. So it's
01:29:00 about in terms of David Hagen. So it's behind your tab 21. It is MPS at 301717 please.
01:29:09 So here we have and so 25th of January 1999
01:29:10 1999 uh about the Roger Sylvester March on
01:29:22 uh about the Roger Sylvester March on the 24th of January of that year. Um now just for for context so the second paragraph says some 250 persons assembled at the outset of the march outside Sylvester's house. These people
01:29:36 outside Sylvester's house. These people were predominantly young black youths of both genders. Those attending the march included uh Wayman Bennett and Privacy Privacy of Full Scout, the brother and two sisters of Michael Menson, George Silcott and Neville Lawrence and then these words who adopted a low profile.
01:29:51 these words who adopted a low profile. Now if we turn over the page please. So page two of this report. So this is in the source comment section and paragraph two here says uh referring to Alex
01:30:05 two here says uh referring to Alex Oadard uh appeared to gain the respect of those on the demonstration for his display of leadership. Suresh Grover
01:30:16 display of leadership. Suresh Grover from the monitoring group and assed from the newer monitoring group followed the march from the sidelines and heckled Oad's attempt at attempting to rest control of the of the march. Okay. So, here we just It says that you followed
01:30:29 here we just It says that you followed the march from the sidelines and heckled Alex Oadard's attempt at attempting to rest control of the march. Could you uh comment on the factual accuracy of that? Uh, please.
01:30:44 Uh, please. It's a total fabrication. I've never heckled Alex at a march. Um, I would have no interest in wrestling control of a march. And if the Manson sisters are there and Mr. Lawrence is
01:31:00 sisters are there and Mr. Lawrence is there, uh, I would be I'd probably be with them rather than on the margins with Assad, then he would be there with me. So I I just I don't think this is true at all. Uh, and just the the again
01:31:18 true at all. Uh, and just the the again the the tone of and the description the next paragraph of the petty jealousy that currently exists between the monitoring groups and MFJ will continue for the foreseeable future as each side seeks to maneuver their own group into a position of influence with any family
01:31:37 position of influence with any family campaign or victims of perceived police brutality. So that characterization of the monitoring group w with movement for justice. What's your comment in relation to that please?
01:31:49 comment in relation to that please? I don't think the description patty jealousy is an accurate one. Um I I have you know I I I don't have a problem with MFJ um advocating what they want. Um
01:32:06 um advocating what they want. Um I my you know the the ethics of the south monitoring group and the monitoring group and family campaigns is um we are called by families. We support them unconditionally.
01:32:21 We support them unconditionally. They are the leaders of that stuff. We would create our resources or build resources around them. We would strengthen their resolve. we would make sure that there are steps taken for them to get legal advice etc. And as it
01:32:33 to get legal advice etc. And as it happened in the lawren stuff if they say thank you Mr. Grover or the South Marine, this is the end. We would just leave without any we don't expect
01:32:45 leave without any we don't expect um gratitude. We don't expect um people to say that um it was not possible without us. We are not looking for that. We're not looking for any credence or credibility. Um
01:32:56 credibility. Um it's
01:33:02 it's it's the issue about family campaigns is is derived out of necessity because people are not getting justice. It's not a competition between different groups. There are too many deaths. There are too many racial attacks. There's too many sexual offenses that take place for
01:33:19 sexual offenses that take place for people to get involved if they want to. It's just that we adopted coming and embedding in our communities to develop family campaigns because um
01:33:28 um it is very difficult for the state to criticize families and what happens is they end up criticizing those around them. Um and
01:33:39 them. Um and monitoring group personnel
01:33:46 personnel by and large from its inception are people who suffer racial violence,
01:33:57 people who suffer racial violence, domestic violence or police brutality or immigration controls. They there are victims who become protagonists and
01:33:58 and it would it would be totally unethical
01:34:10 it would it would be totally unethical for us to be using a campaign to advance our influence over everything. Um I you know I I am I I I mean I I mean I don't know how to express this. I mean, it's not easy dealing with 300
01:34:26 I mean, it's not easy dealing with 300 families who have s suffered death since the 1970s. And some of these relationships are over decades. I mean, with the with Celia Stubs, I've known her since 79. Had a
01:34:38 Stubs, I've known her since 79. Had a discussion with her on what we should be doing in terms of any readress next year. Been with the real family since 97. uh and there are families like the JA
01:34:50 uh and there are families like the JA family over much longer period and it's not just restricted to Britain, it's also internationally. So um to describe it as battery jealousy with a group that is actually on the periphery of the
01:35:05 is actually on the periphery of the campaign, not even at the center of it in terms
01:35:09 in terms in terms of David Hagen himself. Now, you have said you you don't recall him, but I think earlier today you you hinted at there may have been an occasion when
01:35:21 at there may have been an occasion when you did meet David Hagen. Could you just explain what that's a reference to? I mean, the only time that the Socialist Workers Party and the Movement for Justice spoke to me collectively was at
01:35:39 Justice spoke to me collectively was at the end of the inquiry. There were about three or four people and it was all about having the demonstration in Steven's name because the inquiry was
01:35:52 Steven's name because the inquiry was coming to the end etc etc and I remember women sorry I remember cup I don't want I don't know what the thing is I remember individuals who were part of the uh part of the groupings I do remember a woman from movement for
01:36:07 remember a woman from movement for justice and a a bulky man from movement of justice. Um
01:36:20 of justice. Um and I think there was another personal socialist workers party and it and then when I met um
01:36:26 Peter Francis he said
01:36:28 he said and I met him with his solicitors well just just pausing there because that's important. Let let's be clear. When did you first meet Peter Francis?
01:36:40 When did you first meet Peter Francis? After I became about uh became aware of the
01:36:41 the David Hagen's identity. So could you help us with roughly a year just so that we have an idea of It was soon after the credence report was given to me and I was trying to find
01:36:56 was given to me and I was trying to find out who the undercover officers were and then I actually rang the MFJ I think I don't want to name the person and he told me it was David Hagen and he sent me a photograph. So I would say it is couple of years before the inquiries
01:37:12 couple of years before the inquiries started. It was around the time when Mr. Pitchford was pre Mr. pitch pose. I think it may have been 2018 19 something like that because around so I I met him
01:37:28 like that because around so I I met him at his list with a colleague of mine and the discussion was really about his involvement in North London campaigns. Um I think it was a Winston Silkcot campaign. I'm not sure because that's
01:37:40 campaign. I'm not sure because that's where the my colleague worked. And then he he said to me that Heagen you would remember a meeting at the last Peter Francis saying to you yeah he did okay that's sorry
01:37:54 okay that's sorry he said he would remember a meeting that took place near the end of the inquiry and think about it he was he didn't give a lot of information to me because he [snorts] he he he you know for me
01:38:09 [snorts] he he he you know for me meeting him was trying to find out two things. One was meeting an undercover officer who'd been spying on people and then trying to understand his reasons
01:38:25 then trying to understand his reasons why he'd become a whistleblower. uh that that was my kind of way of going to him and I and then we invited him to speak at a conference in London South Bank University with another officer who was an undercover officers and we invited the solicitors for this for the inquiry also to attend the inquiry which they
01:38:39 also to attend the inquiry which they did just to answer questions. So, so why why did you invite Peter Francis to just to so there were large number of people there including some of the core
01:39:03 people there including some of the core participants the women who were targeted were there Dave Smith I think from from um from um the blacklisting was there the undercover research people were there it was trying to um inform the public uh about how the undercover offices
01:39:14 uh about how the undercover offices operated and what the revelations of the undercover under undercover policing in that book called undercover policing whatever it was called were. So just to explain some of the aspects of that and so just to be uh clear when you uh met
01:39:27 so just to be uh clear when you uh met with Peter Francis you say that well he was trying to jog your memory uh in relation to David Hagen but at the end of the day was he successful? Did that
01:39:40 of the day was he successful? Did that I definitely I definitely remember a meeting.
01:39:48 meeting. I can't be to be honest with you sure whether it was Hagen or not, but I think it was him, but I can't be sure. And I do remember him and others trying to influence me about the demonstration. I'm going to ask if uh page 36 of Mr. Grover's statement could please be uh
01:40:00 Grover's statement could please be uh shown on screen. Um Mr. Mr. G, I just want to be sort of clear in relation to the timing of when you met uh Peter Francis because we can see here at
01:40:16 Francis because we can see here at paragraph 116 in your statement, you say that you uh uh only met Peter Francis after the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Uh he you say he may have been at the inquiry, but I don't recall meeting him. And then next paragraph you say I met him around
01:40:36 next paragraph you say I met him around 2016 or 2017 at his solicitor's offices. And that's the episode that you've just described, isn't it? That's right. Thank you for pointing that out.
01:40:41 that out. Uh and your just to continue um your description, you state in your statement, I was apprehensive about meeting an undercover officer. He he came across as honest, genuine, and
01:40:52 came across as honest, genuine, and really concerned about the impact his work and the work of undercover officers more broadly had had on the Lawrence family uh campaign. Uh and then just to
01:41:09 family uh campaign. Uh and then just to complete this section of your statement, you go on to say, I also saw Peter Francis speak at a very large and successful conference organized by us. Again, that's what you've just described, isn't it? Um, the event was also attended by solicitors from the
01:41:22 also attended by solicitors from the inquiry in either 2019 or 2020. He was on a panel with another former undercover officer. The conference also heard testimonies from trade unionists like Dave Smith and many of the women who had been spied on their own homes.
01:41:46 who had been spied on their own homes. to to what extent and we will explore um the impact that this reporting has had on you but to what extent does that uh help the fact that you have had contact with uh Peter Francis now this isn't uh meeting with David Hagen but to what extent if any does it help uh
01:41:58 what extent if any does it help uh speaking to one of the uh SDS u about what happened how does that sort of help in terms of the impact this has all had on you? Does it help?
01:42:15 [panting] I mean, before I met him, I'd read the the book um by Rob Evansson, Paul Lewis on undercover policing and um obviously
01:42:27 on undercover policing and um obviously I'd been involved in the Lawrence stuff and I knew the genesis of how the inquiry came about. Um my impression of undercover officers were
01:42:34 were um that they were they were set to sabotage campaigns and ruin personal lives. Um
01:42:43 lives. Um and so I was very apprehensive. I thought I wouldn't like him. Um I have no problem meeting police officers in professional settings whatsoever. Um, and when we met him,
01:42:57 Um, and when we met him, um, some of the things he said, I was
01:43:11 um, some of the things he said, I was touched by what he was going through. I was touched about his vulnerability. Um I was touched by his um welfare and his um how he saw his the threats to him
01:43:29 um how he saw his the threats to him individually and the the impact um of being a whistleblower. And
01:43:38 And I think uh it was the first time that I realized the gravity of the undercover operations that were taking place. Um especially in the settings that I were invol I was involved in. Um
01:43:58 invol I was involved in. Um it's it's devastating to know that we live in a liberal democracy and there is
01:44:00 there is directions decisions made by a police force which is there to protect you or deal with issues to do with crime.
01:44:10 crime. consciously
01:44:17 um deciding to spy on
01:44:21 spy on families
01:44:27 families whose only crime seems to have been asking questions which are legit legitimate. And I'm I just think um you know I I come from a generation of
01:44:38 from a generation of um people who where people are pointed to um the prevalence of secret police in areas like East Germany um in Stalinist Ghana regimes.
01:44:55 um in Stalinist Ghana regimes. But to be re to be exposed to the fact that
01:44:57 that um
01:44:59 um [clears throat] you you've been spied upon um because you're asking legitimate questions and I actually
01:45:14 families who are whose children have been murdered. Uh that is soul destroying. Um but you know you have to keep on going you have to be strong for other families and I
01:45:27 to be strong for other families and I think the impact on them is much greater on me than than on me uh and I don't want to make it in terms of what the impact on southern monitoring group is but we know as as the monitoring group
01:45:39 but we know as as the monitoring group and the south monitoring group that it has had
01:45:41 has had serious consequences on what we were able to achieve and not achieve because of the um because of the way that they have spied
01:45:54 have spied Now, in relation to the spying spying on you, I I want to return to this uh the phrase peripheral reporting, collateral reporting. Now, of course, we've gone through lots of uh David Hagen reports
01:46:09 through lots of uh David Hagen reports which refer to you again and again and again, but what I want to now just move to is other undercover officers reporting where your name does feature.
01:46:20 reporting where your name does feature. And essentially the my broad question is
01:46:32 And essentially the my broad question is the extent to which you would accept the proposition that where you do appear in these reports this is what has been described by some as collateral reporting or peripheral reporting. So the the next report I'm going to ask to be put on screen. So it's at your tab 23. It's MPS 301935.
01:46:54 So this is a report you will see on screen touchy subject who is the is the code name for undercover officer HN 15. So his
01:47:06 undercover officer HN 15. So his undercover name Mark Cassidy his real name Mark Jenner. So he was deployed 1995
01:47:07 1995 uh to 2000. You can see that here he is
01:47:19 uh to 2000. You can see that here he is reporting in at the end of March 1999 on the national civil rights movement. And if we look at paragraph three, he says the purpose of this launch was lost to a certain degree to the extent that nominations for the steering committee and subsequent votes didn't take place
01:47:31 and subsequent votes didn't take place due to lack of time. This administrative oversight was resolved by the organizers who decided that all 60 nominees would be co-opted onto the steering committee. This list of 60 was read out and once
01:47:44 This list of 60 was read out and once again sounded like a who's who of the extreme left including representatives
01:47:55 extreme left including representatives from the SWP, Socialist Party, AFA, NMP, etc., etc. This steering committee is expected ultimately to decide the
01:48:04 expected ultimately to decide the direction of the movement. And then this the look of despair on chief organizer Suresh Grover said it all the hope of steering anything smoothly looks uh remote and the report goes on. So you there is a reference to you u but it I want to first you get your reaction in
01:48:15 want to first you get your reaction in relation to that particular meeting. Uh so it describes how there are about 300 in attendance. I mean this is back in
01:48:30 in attendance. I mean this is back in 1999. Would you have any recollection of that particular meeting? Does that report your memory? It's absolutely true that we organized it. It took place at Camden Center. Uh we were just shocked at the number of people who turned up. There
01:48:46 number of people who turned up. There were about uh the registration showed about 800 people, not 300 people. In fact, we were very short staff. We thought there was only 300 people turn up. We had only five volunteers to take uh registration. And in the end some of
01:49:04 uh registration. And in the end some of the family members took charge of that. People like Celia Stubs, I spoke, Iran Khan spoke, Mr. Mansville spoke and other people spoke. Um it there there is absolutely no doubt that we ran out of time. We had a very short period of time. There was there
01:49:16 short period of time. There was there were so many people, so much discussion. Um and it is true that uh we could decide on having a vote for the steering group. So actually rather than look over despair as a chief organiz it's me who
01:49:29 despair as a chief organiz it's me who suggested that all 60 people should be accepted and we should have a separate meeting and we did uh about two weeks
01:49:43 meeting and we did uh about two weeks later. Um I I wasn't I'm as I said to you I'm not really concerned about people being in the national civil right movement. I mean I don't know why NMP's been mentioned. I didn't know people
01:49:56 been mentioned. I didn't know people from the socialist party the AFA uh SWP were involved. I think there were two members of the SWPP. I remember them
01:50:10 members of the SWPP. I remember them really well. Uh but there was there was it it was a very it's a very it's an it's a meeting the first meeting post Lawrence report it's the first opportunity for people to come together to learn how that
01:50:23 to learn how that report had come together what was the basis and the anatomy of the campaign how we' achieved that who the forces were and
01:50:33 were and the the the speech I gave wasn't about just the Lawrenes it was about involving larger number of people to move it forward it was now beyond the Lawrence
01:50:46 forward it was now beyond the Lawrence and it had to have other people involved in it etc. So what would you say to the suggestion that there is some justification for
01:51:02 that there is some justification for this type of reporting in the sense that it relates to a uh the beginnings of a movement which uh could involve uh hundreds if not thousands of people uh
01:51:16 hundreds if not thousands of people uh demonstrating and the way in which it's described here. It's although you're referred to in the report, it's not referring to any sort of personal details about you relationships. What would you say to the suggestion that well there is some justification uh in reports like this which simply refer
01:51:32 in reports like this which simply refer to uh something that may be relevant to preventing public disorder and where individuals are mentioned like yourself. It's not titlet or uh personal relationships or anything like that. It is it is more factual. And in terms of
01:51:53 is it is more factual. And in terms of the report it itself would you have uh any sympathy for that uh stance that that point of view? Not at all. I don't have any sympathy. uh there's no indication here there is
01:52:04 uh there's no indication here there is threat of disorder apart from mentioning or insinuating that SWPP or socialist party or the extreme left may insinuate public disorder um the what's happening
01:52:16 the what's happening and also you know the president of the so there's a there's a structure that's been agreed and the number of people who are presidents of this elected at that
01:52:28 are presidents of this elected at that thing at at the meeting uh They include people like Mr. Mansfield the I'm not going to mention them but very famous
01:52:39 going to mention them but very famous actors and and celebrities who who want to give their name to it. What's happening is that um there is a consolidation of different
01:52:53 there is a consolidation of different groups coming post Lawrence to see what is possible to shift and change racism within institutions. And it's agreed that the vital components of that one of the vital components of that constellation of
01:53:11 components of that constellation of forces that this movement may be able to mobilize our justice campaigns uh young people. Um it has to have a national remit and within within
01:53:16 within 3 months of it organizing it had 800 uh
01:53:29 3 months of it organizing it had 800 uh families approaching it for assistance. It managed to get without any funding voluntaries volunteers and
01:53:33 and 90% of the people who volunteered were people who believed in the ethos of civil rights movement as a peaceful organization. Um so I I I [clears throat] you know
01:53:47 [clears throat] you know the only challenge that it posed to the state was that it it was the multiplication of the Lawrence campaign being developed on a national basis
01:54:02 being developed on a national basis in relation to this particular officer. There's one other report uh that he produces mentioning you. So it's your tab B24. It's NPS trebo265.
01:54:24 Now in this report it is dated the 11th of June 1999. Again, it's about the National Civil Rights Movement. And
01:54:29 And four lines down from the top of this report,
01:54:33 report, he says the movements, so the National Civil Rights Movement is run in a dictatorial fashion by Suresh Grover, who has the support of the majority black Asian community groups and white
01:54:46 black Asian community groups and white left-wing groups, were only too happy to be seen being politically correct. Now in relation to that that sentence there uh is there any accuracy in in that that you did run it in that style?
01:54:58 you did run it in that style? Can you blow it up by this? Yes. So it is the So it's line four undercover officer um Mark Jenner desri describing you running the national
01:55:12 describing you running the national civil rights movement in a dictatorial fashion and that uh white left-wing groups are uh are happy uh to be seen as
01:55:25 groups are uh are happy uh to be seen as being politically uh correct. So the the language here, could you please um provide your views? I've never run um organizations in the dictorial fashion. In fact, I've been criticized for being too democratic and too inclusive and
01:55:38 too democratic and too inclusive and that's the weakness that people find in me. You know to to suggest for my suggestion was that they would all the 60 people who nominated uh should be part of the steering group. um it's difficult to manage these
01:55:51 um it's difficult to manage these meetings because people want to have a stake in it and the way I conduct meeting is actually give everybody a chance to speak no longer how it long it takes um especially marginalized group
01:56:08 takes um especially marginalized group of people. So if giving women chance to speak is politically correct I'm not going to apologize for that. What about the the last section of this report? Grover's agenda is to set up regional centers for the movement whose main job will be to train and run
01:56:21 main job will be to train and run evidence gathering teams to look at all local cases of racial crimes. Is is that a fair report?
01:56:38 a fair report? That's one of our aims is to set up regional advice centers to offer help to victims of racism. Uh that's absolutely correct.
01:56:40 correct. It goes on, victims will be encouraged to talk to the NCRM before going to the police so that a fully investigated documented case can be put to the authorities. While sounding lordable,
01:56:53 authorities. While sounding lordable, there is little doubt that the hidden agenda is to further weaken black and Asian community trust in the police and
01:57:06 Asian community trust in the police and to highlight their perceived weakness in dealing with racial crime. What's your reaction to that? that well that all sounds very good all lordable but that there's a hidden agenda to quote further weaken black Asian community trust in the police
01:57:19 the police you know the whole point of NCRM is developing a a campaigning arm to the
01:57:34 developing a a campaigning arm to the advocacy project that we're developing um and that campaigning arm allows victims and individuals to devel develop their own perspective on what should be happening, their own strategies. Um
01:57:46 Um it's really to empower and encourage victims to speak out. Um there there is no there is no nothing in um the program or the strategy which
01:57:59 um the program or the strategy which says the reason why we're doing this to undermine police uh confidence uh between uh between them and the black communities. Um you know we we don't have to do that.
01:58:14 you know we we don't have to do that. The police do that very well themselves. Um,
01:58:16 Um, it's unfortunate that they do that. I actually want them to be professional. I don't want to be pigeonholed and deal with racism all my life. I've been dealing this in 1971.
01:58:27 dealing this in 1971. And I and I just think if they would just grasp the net and say we need to change and it's not just about behaviors, it's about taking leadership.
01:58:43 behaviors, it's about taking leadership. And until that happens, if women come to us suffering sexual violence or rape, which is racially motivated, you're going to get you're going to get us to support these women and and expose why those failures are taking place. I'm not going to apologize about that. I
01:58:55 not going to apologize about that. I wish it didn't take place. I want to live in a society which is equal.
01:59:07 live in a society which is equal. This officer who produced this report, Mark Jenner, um is it right that this is not someone you have any memory of at all? There's a limited number. I know his name, but I have no I don't know uh I know that he's involved in other stuff. I think he was there at the 10th anniversary um meeting
01:59:18 um meeting on the Steven Lauren uh on the Blade Peach case, but I can't be sure. I have nothing. I have no recollection of him at all.
01:59:30 at all. Let's just move to another officer and I'm going to ask if we could please put up on screen MPS 04301. So it's at your tab B26.
01:59:47 So this report we can see Kggy Island which is the code name for HN 104 Carlo Saraki whose code uh whose undercover name was Carlo Ner. Now he was deployed between 2000 and
01:59:58 Now he was deployed between 2000 and 2006. It's same question about him. Uh am I right in uh thinking that you have no recollection of uh I don't have any recollection at all
02:00:12 I don't have any recollection at all in terms of this particular report. So you can see we're moving forward in time. This is dated the 16th of October 2000. So civil rights march 14th of October 2000. Uh the above uh march
02:00:25 October 2000. Uh the above uh march organized by the national civil rights movement proved to be a great disappointment to the organizers as the number taking part in the march which passed off peacefully uh barely reached
02:00:39 passed off peacefully uh barely reached 300. Uh privacy uh SNU uh who works for NCRM and helped organize the event was particularly scathing of Suresh Grover the main organizer claiming that he had failed to promote the march amongst
02:00:50 failed to promote the march amongst other left-wing groups until very late in the day. In terms of this uh particular report, of course, it refers to uh the uh marchers being uh passing off peacefully.
02:01:01 off peacefully. Does that ring any bell? The the reference to uh someone uh being particularly scathing of of you claiming that you'd failed to promote the march amongst other left-wing groups until
02:01:13 amongst other left-wing groups until very late in the day. Is this is this a s a common issue that arose from time to time in meetings? Is this anything that you can recall? I remember the march. Um
02:01:29 I remember the march. Um um I think the person who's making this comment about um
02:01:33 um and he's scathing about me. They have the right to be. I don't have an issue with that. U did I fail to promote the march amongst other leftwing groups? I
02:01:45 march amongst other leftwing groups? I don't see why I would do that. The march is not just organized be by me. It's organized by a group of people at the head of the NCRM. So, it's a collective effort. Um,
02:01:56 effort. Um, the reference to you being increasingly reluctant to lies with other left-wing groups when organizing such events. Was that a feature by this time 2000, late 2000? Uh look um
02:02:08 2000? Uh look um I don't want I I think there's a deliberate attempt being take deliberate attempt by undercore office off officers to paint leftwing groups as agitators
02:02:23 to paint leftwing groups as agitators and violent and family justice campaigns who can be influenced by them. That's not the reality. um whether whether we whether the the truth of the matter is that when we were experiencing serious racial violence in
02:02:37 experiencing serious racial violence in our towns the only groups that turned up to support were far-left groups and we developed a relationship with them but we didn't necessarily join their political groups so there was always some cooporately discussion and
02:02:49 some cooporately discussion and agreement or engagement with them for example you know in south We consider Blair Peace to be our brother. We never met him. We have no problem that he was
02:03:01 met him. We have no problem that he was a member of anti-Nazi league. The reason why we remember him is because of the way he was killed. We think solidarity is an essential aspect of civilized just society and we think his death should
02:03:18 society and we think his death should not go to waste. So it does not matter whether he was a member of leftwing group. We have differences with groups of people whether they are leftwing or within our own communities if if the agenda is set to simply create violence
02:03:37 agenda is set to simply create violence for the sake of violence. Um, so I think this is an attempt to show that we are trying to disassociate from leftwing groups
02:03:49 disassociate from leftwing groups because they they present a picture that uh is more threatening in terms of
02:04:00 uh is more threatening in terms of public disorder stuff and I think it's it's being used to define and justify what they police call collateral intrusion. Um but it is it it's it's it totally misses the point that within the black brown communities where are we
02:04:17 black brown communities where are we have our own radical history of marches of politics sometimes there's fusion with progressive politics sometimes there's progression with other issues with women's movement with environmental groups so there is a tradition in our own communities uh which stems from you
02:04:33 own communities uh which stems from you know 1930s of people being spied upon um you know Indian workers association inviting Martin Luther King to their annual conferences and having special branch officers uh visiting them Malcolm X being invited by Indian workers
02:04:51 X being invited by Indian workers association Birmingham because the issue of racial violence and the national front that that tradition exists independently and also with the new left uh globally so there's uh we are not we don't live in an island in black
02:05:03 don't live in an island in black communities. We're influenced by what happens in Ireland. We're influenced by what happens in US just like white communities are and and there are we are
02:05:17 communities are and and there are we are influenced by uh all sorts of movements. Um
02:05:20 Um Mr. I'm just just going to um stop you there because I see the time. Sir, I if there were to be a 10-minute break now, I would still aim to conclude
02:05:32 now, I would still aim to conclude questioning by about 4:00 to allow time for the rule 10 process. I don't know whether
02:05:33 whether it's completed. Well, I think that the transcribers deserve a break. And um can we have our usual afternoon 10 minutes? 10 minutes.
02:19:56 Mr. Grover, I wonder if I could please uh ask if you could clarify something that you said uh about an hour ago in your evidence, but I just want to be
02:20:09 your evidence, but I just want to be clear in relation to what that was. So, the note that we have is that you said this. I am not somebody who advocates violence, but there was never ever an instance apart from one time where
02:20:20 instance apart from one time where somebody advocated violence in a public meeting, but they were members of
02:20:30 meeting, but they were members of movement for justice. Nobody listened to them. There was never a situation where the Socialist Workers Party nor the Movement for Justice said to me, "Actually, you're doing something which isn't going to get us the result is diluting the issue of racism and we're not going to hold the police to
02:20:42 not going to hold the police to account." So, it's it's this question about anyone suggesting to you or in your hearing advocating violence. And
02:20:58 your hearing advocating violence. And just to be clear, c can you just help um expand on that? Was there ever a time that in these meetings someone was advocating violence of There was one individual advocating violence but he was not a member of movement for justice. He was just an individual there. I don't know who he was.
02:21:10 was. So this is an individual who was not attached to any particular group. Absolutely not. A and just to be very clear in relation to that so that we um get your evidence um accurately
02:21:22 get your evidence um accurately ourselves as far as movement for justice is concerned in all of your dealings with them. Do you have any recollection of any plans or any suggestions of violence?
02:21:35 violence? Not at all. I don't have they've never ever advocated violence in front of me at all. And in terms of any suggestion
02:21:46 at all. And in terms of any suggestion by them of plans to carry out criminal damage, for example, at all?
02:22:00 damage, for example, at all? No, it's it's it's never been raised. Thank you for clarifying that. I I'd like to turn uh now to the last of the officers uh who mention you in their reports, and this officer is uh his undercover name is Simon Wellings. It's HN118 and his code name is Groundhog
02:22:13 HN118 and his code name is Groundhog Day. It is the report, sir, at your tab 27.
02:22:18 27. Mr. Grover, this officer was deployed from 2001 to 2007.
02:22:30 In terms of the reference to you in his reporting, as you will see, it is more limited in scope than the previous reports that we've looked at. But again, let's look at the report first. So we can see November 2001, South London Stop the War Coalition is
02:22:45 South London Stop the War Coalition is the title of the report. Groundhog Day being his code name. And then this on Monday the 12th of November. The South London Stop the War Coalition has organized a rally as part of the buildup to the demonstration. [cough]
02:23:01 to the demonstration. [cough] The meeting will take place at 7:30 p.m. at St. Matthews Church, Brixton Hill, SW2. And the speakers will include Jeremy Corbyn MP Suresh Grover Southern Monitoring Project Lindseay German
02:23:12 Monitoring Project Lindseay German editor social review uh uh and privacy and so you're referred to but that is the detail that is uh recorded about you in this uh report and if we look at if the report without maximizing that
02:23:24 the report without maximizing that particular section if we just look at it um as the document as a whole we can see that uh if we you've got your name down there, special branch uh reference. And
02:23:42 there, special branch uh reference. And so again, in relation to this particular meeting of the Stop the War Coalition, is that anything that you would recall going back to 2001?
02:23:54 going back to 2001? Yeah. I I I was actually one of the founders of Stop the War Coalition. uh and I went to and spoke at the meeting at a South London stop the work coation organized at St. Matthews Church at Brixham Hill. I don't think Mr.
02:24:08 at Brixham Hill. I don't think Mr. Corbyn turned up uh but I was one of the speakers with Lindseay German and one other speaker. Yeah. So in terms of this report the in relation to
02:24:22 report the in relation to this partic um talking about a meeting that will take place again the same question as I asked in relation to the other officers this undercover officer Simon Wellings is this an individual
02:24:34 Simon Wellings is this an individual that you would have any recollection of all right okay and just so um if we just go to the next of the reports
02:24:46 the reports that refers to you. It is sir your tab B28 is MPS trebolo 735 please.
02:24:59 So the previous report is talking about a meeting that will uh take uh place uh and this is the follow-up report uh which reports after that meeting took place and it refers to you in the second paragraph as a keynote uh speaker in
02:25:14 paragraph as a keynote uh speaker in relation uh to this uh particular uh meeting
02:25:16 meeting and
02:25:19 and in relation to the uh reference to you made earlier about your recollection was that Jeremy Corbyn
02:25:33 recollection was that Jeremy Corbyn didn't make that meeting. Uh we can see here Jeremy Corbyn who had been advertised as speaking at this event withdrew leading a diary conflict confirming your your memory of that. What is your reaction to reading this?
02:25:51 What is your reaction to reading this? So this is uh not uh to do with uh any of your work with uh say the Steven Lawrence uh family group. This is stop the war coalition. This reporting on
02:26:02 the war coalition. This reporting on you. What was your reaction to reading this type of reporting on you please? Yeah, I'm speaking as an NCRM chair co-chair. I'm not speaking on behalf of
02:26:14 co-chair. I'm not speaking on behalf of Steven Laurens campaign and I'm not late of the new monitoring project. I think he's confused his um
02:26:28 he's confused his um thing. I I'm definitely at the meeting. I remember the meeting really well. Um but I'm speaking as a national civil rights movement person. So in terms where it says late of the new and monitoring project that that's uh
02:26:41 monitoring project that that's uh I've never I think that's what I mean. I think he's confused. Um there's all I mean some I mean the new monitoring project
02:26:45 project didn't exist at that time. So I think he probably meant to say south monitoring group previously or the monitoring group but I think he and there's never been justice for steel for Lawrence campaign. It was always the Steven Lawrence family campaign that I was involved in. The
02:27:03 campaign that I was involved in. The justice for Steven Lawrence case was set up in 1993. deposed after when I was enrolled.
02:27:09 enrolled. We can take that report off screen. There is one further report, but it's simply just lists your name alongside a
02:27:22 simply just lists your name alongside a list of other names as being uh someone in the national civil rights movement. So, I'm not going to take you uh to that. But in terms of that last uh officer uh reporting on your work uh in
02:27:33 officer uh reporting on your work uh in the stop the war coalition in a nutshell could you just um tell us because you have said that you were part of the founding of that very briefly in terms of how that came about the founding of stop the war coalition your role in that please.
02:27:43 please. Um
02:27:52 Um I got involved in stop the war coalition as a peace activist. Um I I went to a meeting
02:27:54 meeting um after the invasion of Iraq. Um there were you know the the march attracted over 1.34 million people.
02:28:08 attracted over 1.34 million people. There were a cross-section of people. As one of the organizers I chaired the first rally at Trafalga Square. Um it it was trying to uh there was a lot of feeling within
02:28:24 uh there was a lot of feeling within black brown [clears throat] communities about the war and we were trying to reflect and trying to persuade the government from resisting the invasion. um
02:28:39 um in Iraq um we didn't believe that there was a smoking gun and that um
02:28:42 um there were weapons of mass destruction that existed in Iraq. Um the march you know the march itself was one of the most peaceful marches. There was no
02:28:58 most peaceful marches. There was no conflict. There was no incidents. It it had to m it had fox hunters people who supported fox hunters. people who supported women's rights, people who supported all sorts of things. I mean, it it's such a wide cross-section of society from progressive to labor to
02:29:13 society from progressive to labor to conservative to liberal democrat people on on the fringes. Um
02:29:24 on on the fringes. Um I think uh lots of uh members of the Muslim community there. Um so I've always always have um been involved in issues to do with genocide and war uh as part of the work
02:29:37 genocide and war uh as part of the work that we've done with southern monitoring with and and the monitor group.
02:29:48 with and and the monitor group. Now I have spent the day asking you questions about uh undercover officers. We've looked at various uh reports. I want to turn now to when you first discovered uh about this reporting and
02:30:02 discovered uh about this reporting and the impact it's had on you. may assist if we were to put up on screen please page 51 of Mr. Grover's statement please.
02:30:13 So on page 51 at paragraph 174 this is where you talk about the first time that you became aware of SDS undercover activity. But I wonder if if you could articulate for us that particular moment
02:30:27 articulate for us that particular moment in time for you and the effect it had on you, please. Yeah. Um I I was at a mediating case on racial discrimination and I just got a call that there would be a parcel
02:30:39 be a parcel for me. Um it's must be around 9:30 in the evening cuz the mediation went till about 1:00 in the morning. Um,
02:31:00 about 1:00 in the morning. Um, I didn't open the parcel because of the mediation, but I opened it when I got home and I was I was actually quite devastated that there was um an actual report which confirmed that I was subject of
02:31:11 which confirmed that I was subject of spying and so were the monitoring group. uh a large section of the report was redacted. So I couldn't there were a lot of questions that came to my head on
02:31:22 of questions that came to my head on who, how, why they were involved. Um the monitoring group isn't just a campaigning organization on the streets. You know, we work with local authorities to develop
02:31:35 to develop um racial harassment procedures for victims
02:31:36 victims um together with local authorities. uh you know I I work regularly on cases with police service to do with public
02:31:49 with police service to do with public interest cases. So I was startled to be honest and we were we were you know it's it's one thing thinking or knowing that you may be under
02:32:00 knowing that you may be under surveillance but never really taking account prepared for it. It's a totally different thing when you actually get
02:32:12 different thing when you actually get hit by evidence that has been given to you by uh a section of the police service.
02:32:18 service. Well, you you talk about being hit by the evidence. If we can turn to page 52 uh at the bottom of that page, paragraphs 1821 183 and and here you you articulate
02:32:32 articulate in further detail uh the effect it has had on you. You talk about feeling devastated by it.
02:32:44 devastated by it. Yeah, I I was I was I was actually angry and devastated. I was because um the work we've done I think is totally legitimate. It's totally lawful. It's it's raising issues and cases to the
02:32:57 it's raising issues and cases to the extreme level. So the state begins to respond to it because otherwise it's it's totally uh oblivious to the concerns of people who uh are suffering injustices. Yes, we are vocal. We can be fearless. We can be audacious. Um and
02:33:15 fearless. We can be audacious. Um and sometimes we are deliberately that but it's within the parameters of being totally lawful. Um, and so I it it it is it is um
02:44:07 you had anything further to say? You I think referred to that you wanted to make a statement or you wanted to say something further. What what is that that you wanted to say? Can I read a statement which I just prepared five minutes ago?
02:44:21 prepared five minutes ago? I'm certain you may. Yes, of course. Okay.
02:44:23 Okay. um
02:44:29 all of us whether it's the women who've campaigned uh under PSOL
02:44:44 uh under PSOL campaign of opposing police surveillance the undercover rece research group and many of the justice campaigns um who've been affected by it the environmental campaigns all of us have been together since the inception of
02:44:56 been together since the inception of this inquiry and mo most of us have had longer history building solidarity against injustice for decades longer
02:45:11 against injustice for decades longer and I think despite attempts to sabotage our work undermine campaigns and ruin our personal lives the state through spying have failed to destroy our campaigns and the organizations that we've set up and the inquiry too has posed many institution challenges and obstacles
02:45:22 obstacles um lack of disclosure and I think preferational treatment on the right of privacy to undercover officers.
02:45:31 officers. But um the period we live in today is very different from the period that we lived in the 1990s.
02:45:45 that we lived in the 1990s. It's more perilous. It's more dangerous. Uh and
02:45:51 Uh and only last month uh far-right marches in Whitold attracted over 150,000 people and the lack of robust police protection to counter protesters and members of the public was glaring.
02:46:07 public was glaring. Some of our supporters were surrounded by farright marches and some suffered racial abuse on route to counter demonstration. Uh the size of the march is unprecedented and a stark reminder of widespread racist attacks and murders that have led that led to our formation in the 1980s.
02:46:20 in the 1980s. Um last month we saw the hate crime figures released by the police. The racial incidents have spiraled nationally. Islamophobia attacks on
02:46:31 nationally. Islamophobia attacks on black people. Anti-semitic attacks. Uh the far right want our communities to feel afraid and isolated. Um
02:46:46 Um and these groups have been emboldened by global funding and the political establishment that seeks to scapegoat migrants particularly Muslims. The austerity that has been manufactured by successive governments has plunged vast sections of society into poverty
02:47:06 vast sections of society into poverty and have been effectively be mobilized against migrants. There's also this acceleration towards authoritarian legislation that endangered that endangers our right to protest and right to assembly. The very issues that we are discussing here
02:47:19 discussing here um we are now facing the demonization of demonization of migrants through xenophobic portrayal of both people. Moreever, racist assumptions about sexual exploitation and abuse have been
02:47:32 sexual exploitation and abuse have been allowed to spread and spurn violent mobs together outside asylum seeker accommodation. We've seen the weaponization of sexual violence to serve an agenda, especially
02:47:43 violence to serve an agenda, especially narrow patriarchal and religious agendas that erase survivors voices. Disturbingly, many of the men protesting and claiming to protect women and children against refugees have convictions for domestic and sex violence themselves.
02:47:57 and sex violence themselves. Unprecedentedly in the Midlands in the last month, something that we never saw in 70. Two young Asian women have been raped by white men uh which are racially
02:48:10 white men uh which are racially motivated and these have been accepted as racially motivated rape attacks by the police in East Midlands. Um, while we welcome more responsive stances from law enforcement and remain deeply concerned about the justice system's long-standing failures in addressing
02:48:25 long-standing failures in addressing sexual and racial violence, we have to condemn sexual violence no matter the race of the perpetrator because misogyny and sexism are not confined in any one race or community. They're embedded in patriarchal systems of power deeply
02:48:36 patriarchal systems of power deeply interwined with racism and economic equality. Sexual violence must never be reduced to tool for racism or patriarchal control. To achieve true justice, we must dismiss these
02:48:48 justice, we must dismiss these intersecting systems of oppression.
02:48:58 We've come a long way and we have a long way to go. We should be proud of ourselves
02:48:59 ourselves um in what we've achieved. um proud to be associated with women who
02:49:17 um proud to be associated with women who have been groomed by police officers for sex and for seeking information to the bravery of the trade union individuals who've suffered untelling damage to their personal lives as well as employment issues.
02:49:28 as well as employment issues. um to the tremendous work that the undercover research group has done and most importantly for me the bravery, the tenacity of
02:49:39 tenacity of um justice campaigns, families who've suffered not just one murder but in the case of the monu
02:49:51 sons have been killed in different instances. yet you remain strong despite the harrow that all of us have suffered. Um
02:50:05 have suffered. Um there's one lesson that we need to learn from all this is that we need to be
02:50:17 from all this is that we need to be more verifous in trying to convince the chair about dealing with the issue of institutional racism and misogyny or what the women have classified as institutional sexism. And we really need to take ensure that the inquiry does not
02:50:38 uh you know does not waver when it comes to ensuring that the right of protest and the right of assembly remain intact in this society. the very formation and democratic principles that we thrive
02:50:54 democratic principles that we thrive under despite government or home office objections. That's all I have to say. [applause]
02:51:06 Thank you, Mr. Grover. Sir, I have not been informed of any uh further rule 10 questions. I don't know whether a short break to ascertain whether there are any. Um, we'd better make sure. Um, is there any re-examination?
02:51:22 there any re-examination? Yes. In which case, I will arrive, but only for a few minutes to let you find out.
03:00:54 So, just a few uh brief questions uh to put Mr. Mr. Grover, I'm just going to read to you just some of the transcript from earlier and it was relating to when you met Peter Francis. Uh you said it
03:01:06 you met Peter Francis. Uh you said it was soon after the grievance report was given to me and I was trying to find out who the undercover officers were. I actually rang the movement for justice.
03:01:23 actually rang the movement for justice. I don't want to name the person. He told me it was David Hagen and he sent me a photograph. So I would say it is a couple of years before the inquiry started. It was around the time when Mr. pictured was I think it may have been
03:01:36 pictured was I think it may have been 2018 19 something like that. Now just so that we are clear the person I'm not asking you to name anyone but the person you say sent you a photograph of David
03:01:48 you say sent you a photograph of David Hagen just to be clear that that person was not Peter Francis. No it's not.
03:02:00 No it's not. All right. Now, in terms of the the precise timing of when you uh met Peter Francis, I is it correct um that a request uh through the lawyers, a request was made from you uh to Peter Francis that that was the route. It wasn't Peter Francis contact. Absolutely.
03:02:17 Absolutely. In terms I'm going to suggest that the that request from you in fact took place earlier than uh you have previously stated that it was in fact May 2014. Could that have been the timing and
03:02:28 Could that have been the timing and possible? I I I I'm willing to be corrected on that and that the meeting took place the following month in June 2014. Is that possible?
03:02:35 possible? I I I'm willing to accept that. All right. And the final uh topic is when I was asking you questions about well when was there a clamor for a public inquiry and you indicated well
03:02:51 public inquiry and you indicated well you know from 1993 as far as the Steven Lawrence case was concerned. Could you just help us with any information that you have or you were aware the extent to which in 1996 there was uh pressure put on the then
03:03:08 there was uh pressure put on the then conservative government for an inquiry and your involvement in the political side of things. I I I wasn't involved in any of that. I know the lawyers may have approached the home secretary. I think it was Michael
03:03:19 home secretary. I think it was Michael Howard, but I wasn't I wasn't involved in any of that. So approaching Michael Howard, that wasn't anything you were involved in and and then in in opposition in 1996. Any contact with
03:03:32 opposition in 1996. Any contact with Jack Straw at that time as far as you are concerned? Not with me personally. No.
03:03:40 Thank you. So that does complete my questions. Thank you. Just two or three topics of course today. Um Mr. Grover. Um, we know you're a public speaker, so I'm I'm going to try and keep your answers
03:03:51 I'm going to try and keep your answers short if I may and and take you to the material that I want you to deal with. And dealing with the last point you talked about going to Nottingham Carnival in August 1993.
03:04:04 Carnival in August 1993. Do you recall what the petition that you were seeking uh passes by to sign? What did that demand? Do you recall that that demanded a public inquiry?
03:04:15 demanded a public inquiry? Yeah, it demanded a public inquiry and a reinvestigation into demanded reinvestigation into the murder of Steven Lawrence and a public inquiry.
03:04:28 of Steven Lawrence and a public inquiry. So, it's right to say that from 1993, the family were seeking a public inquiry and that was known to the public. Yeah, absolutely. I was I was at the I was [snorts] at the um carnival specifically to get that petition
03:04:39 specifically to get that petition signed. And by that time, is it right that the Lawrence family were very critical of the Metropolitan Police and the handling of the investigation? I think the Lawrence family
03:04:51 I think the Lawrence family um were critical of the police whether it's vary or not. It's Yeah, they were critical.
03:05:04 critical. By the time that you were at they were seeking people to sign the petition at that point in 1993, August 1993, they were
03:05:06 were That's what I remember. That's what I remember. Thank you. Another topic dealing with your uh inverted commas anti- police public order um u characterization by some of the SCS
03:05:21 characterization by some of the SCS officers. I don't go through all of the campaigns that you've listed in your witness statement, but just dealing with
03:05:33 witness statement, but just dealing with some of them. the methodology adopted by you and the monitoring group and I talk about and I'm referring to the south monitoring group and the monitoring group in terms of cases that you took on did they necessarily involve
03:05:51 did they necessarily involve concerns about public disorder and if I can assist you in this way um dealing with for example the um
03:05:57 the um case of Zahed Mubarak. Now that led to a public inquiry. So in terms of that case and that campaign, what was the methodology? What was the what was the
03:06:14 methodology? What was the what was the reason for taking up that case and how did you um campaign and what did you campaign for?
03:06:23 campaign for? Uh the family approached me when S was clubbed to death in March 2000. He was still alive when I met the family. He was in hospital. Um he died a week later. Uh it the first step was to get a
03:06:34 later. Uh it the first step was to get a police investigation into the murder. We had a we worked with the police inspectors. I'm going to try and cut you short. What was the ultimate objective in that case is to find out why the prison service failed to prevent that murder. And in
03:06:53 failed to prevent that murder. And in order to get the answer, what was the objective of your organization uh in approaching that it is to first of all get answers from the police from a prison service through
03:07:06 the police from a prison service through the director general I think it's Martin Ner and failing that there was a C inquiry which didn't answer the questions is to argue for a public inquiry and we succeeded with justice Keith to get that.
03:07:17 Keith to get that. I suppose the point I'm trying to make through you Mr. Grover is that you were um meeting ministers, meeting um prison officials and so on. Yeah.
03:07:29 Yeah. Was this a case um in which there was any concern about public disorder? None whatsoever. And similarly in relation to Victoria Colia that you refer to, was that a campaign in which you were seeking a public inquiry or that was one of the objectives?
03:07:40 objectives? uh I was involved just before the public inquiry was announced because of the internal inquiries that had taken place. There
03:07:52 inquiries that had taken place. There was already a call for public inquiry and a clamor for it and been agreed under Lord Lemming. Uh so again the methodology was to get the family access to the right politicians and to the
03:08:09 to the right politicians and to the right lawyers and to write press for the stuff. There was never there was never any
03:08:13 any any hint of public disorder in any of the campaigns I've been involved in. I've just used those examples. They're in your statement. Um so I won't go through all of them. And in relation to some of these cases dealing with the
03:08:24 some of these cases dealing with the anti police aspect of it. Um were there cases in which you actively worked with the police in relation to the cases?
03:08:37 the police in relation to the cases? Most murder cases that I've dealt with have to involve the police. It's impossible for me to work independent of the police. Uh so it's always worked with police in what I
03:08:53 it's always worked with police in what I call public interest cases which have an impact on you know see public interest cases in the way we define it is that life has been loed in danger. there are lessons to be learned and there needs to be swift response
03:09:05 be swift response uh to ensure that there's no trust lost between the public and the police you know you can be repaired it and actually that formulation sorry for that
03:09:16 that formulation sorry for that formulation actually was accepted by CO24
03:09:18 CO24 and in the minimum standards under the metropolitan race of island task force they created this concept of critical incident it's very close to our public interest
03:09:29 interest I I want to refer to cases prior to the Steven Lawrence campaign in terms of your history and just t taking some of those were you working with police officers and senior police officers in investigating cases
03:09:44 investigating cases um that you wanted families to seek justice and you're working with police officers to do Absolutely.
03:09:55 Absolutely. So the idea and perhaps it's it's worth saying it directly to you and asking you the direct question were you and was your methodology anti police? No, not at all.
03:10:11 Uh, and then institutional racism. You've dealt with many campaigns over the years. They're all here. Uh, and you've explained what institutional racism means. Um, how would you characterize
03:10:22 characterize the campaigns that you've been involved in in which race has played a part? To put it directly to you, is it your evidence? Is it your view that institutional racism played a part in any or all of these cases? And is there a pattern that you see? We normally deal with cases which has a race element. Um whether it's race,
03:10:39 race element. Um whether it's race, policing, domestic violence. There are other agencies which deal with purely sexual violence etc. So there's always an element of race or institutional racism in the cases that we deal with.
03:10:59 racism in the cases that we deal with. And to put it in very clear, unambiguous terms, is that because you're involved in cases where you see um a community being treated differently and that's what indicates that that rac. Yeah. Our cases demonstrate the disproportionality that black minority
03:11:14 disproportionality that black minority communities suffer at the hands of the police, whether it's in the criminal justice system. There's a lot of evidence from our case work. The cases that we dealt with demonstrate that and there's a lot of research that support
03:11:28 there's a lot of research that support that evidence. So our cases in terms of murder investigations or serious offenses
03:11:33 offenses uh there's always a perception by the family that they've been let down or
03:11:42 family that they've been let down or something has been said on the behavior of the police or actions have not been taken uh where they believe that is because they are from a racialized community and they can demonstrate that in some of the instances that have taken place. So is is it the position that the reason they've been failed um there is
03:11:56 reason they've been failed um there is no other reason apart from race playing a part in the central role in it. Thank you very much. And then finally this in relation to your concerns um are you
03:12:09 your concerns um are you still concerned about whether you are under any some sort of surveillance? I'm quite sure that I'm under surveillance. I can't prove it but I
03:12:21 surveillance. I can't prove it but I want to guarantee if it's possible or at least
03:12:27 least uh a series of questions from the home secretary or whoever the appropriate person is to seek whether the south monitoring group or the monitoring group or myself and our colleagues are are are being spied upon. Um
03:12:38 being spied upon. Um Mr. Grover I'm going to stop you there just dealing with a paragraph I won't take um ask you to go to it but you have said at paragraph 202 page 56 of your
03:12:52 said at paragraph 202 page 56 of your statement uh I have meetings with senior officers and you made reference to this earlier on cases fairly regularly one meeting a few years ago ended with the officer asking me how my cats and I didn't there's a restriction order on the names of the cats uh Jenny and
03:13:08 the names of the cats uh Jenny and Minnie were doing um I've never told any officer the names of my cats and their discussions about my private life. It was bizarre. It seemed to signal that the officer was aware of quite intimate details of my personal life, the sort of which would only come about through
03:13:21 which would only come about through intrusive state surveillance. Um, and this was how long ago?
03:13:31 This was at New Scotland Yard. Uh
03:13:33 Uh I would say
03:13:45 during the Ricky real inquiry so it would be about 99 2000 or 2001 and in your view I'm I'm sure you've said this before was there any justification in the cases that you've
03:13:56 justification in the cases that you've dealt with or indeed your private life that would justify the sort of intr intrusive surveillance that uh we've heard about today.
03:14:08 heard about today. Absolutely not. I'm quite an open book. You can just It's I don't pose a threat to anyone. Thank you. So those are my questions. Yeah. Um there is one specific topic that I would like to ask you about. Um
03:14:22 that I would like to ask you about. Um can we put up please on the screen MPS O1212
03:14:26 O1212 at page three? It'll come up in a moment.
03:14:35 And could you highlight please the second paragraph on that page? You've been asked about this. The reason I'm asking you uh about it is because HN81
03:14:47 HN81 uh Hagen will not be giving oral evidence to me and his account of this discussion and yours differ and so I
03:15:01 discussion and yours differ and so I have only yours uh in respect to which I will have oral evidence. So I don't have the usual task of a judge of dec deciding which of someone
03:15:13 judge of dec deciding which of someone who's given me oral evidence and another person who's given me oral evidence are right about a particular thing. Um you could you look please at the paragraph the sentence rather that begins Suresh went on to explain that Dorine and
03:15:24 went on to explain that Dorine and Neville have in reality separated and they have and that they only continued together as a front for the campaign. Leave aside for one moment they have
03:15:36 Leave aside for one moment they have only continued together as a front for the campaign which I I don't propose to ask you about. But the fact that they had separated
03:15:53 fact that they had separated uh I'm told by uh Baroness Lawrence's witness statement uh that her then husband left home in 1994. So what is said here as a basic fact is apparently true. Um,
03:16:10 I have difficulty in understanding how uh HN81
03:16:15 uh HN81 can have leared that unless someone told him
03:16:21 it's not me, sir. I can guarantee you that it's not me.
03:16:31 I I would never say it in a public meeting. It's not relevant to what I'm doing at that meeting. Um
03:16:35 Um I can't answer that question whether why he put that there.
03:16:48 I think in one of the statements he says that when I said it Assad Raman was with me chairing a meeting spoken to Assad Raman he doesn't recall me saying that. Um so
03:16:57 Um so I would own up if I said it. There was no reason for me to say it in a public way. I would not say it.
03:17:10 Can you remember who spoke at that meeting publicly? Who might have known that fact? I I think you know um when I was asked this by yourself at a
03:17:22 when I was asked this by yourself at a meeting with Mr. Khan earlier before the inquiry uh I was told that it was being meeting that both Assad and I had been I didn't I wasn't told who the officer was at that time
03:17:34 at that time as you remember and
03:17:41 and it's not my there was there was there was no
03:17:46 was no there's no reason for me to mention that they'd separated um Actually, as I said, I was the last person to know that they were thinking of separating. The information was circulating within the Steven
03:17:57 was circulating within the Steven Lawrence campaign with other lawyers before then. I I'm not saying they said I don't think anybody from the Lawrence campaign said that. Um
03:18:12 I I be absolutely truthful. I didn't say that. I don't remember saying it. There's no reason for me to say it. If I said it, I would tell the family I said it. But there's it's not something I would do.
03:18:32 You're not able to help me then as to who else might have said it, who else knew and who was speaking at that meeting?
03:18:38 Um, yeah. I mean, I
03:18:41 I mean, I I don't know what the context that he says. I said it, you know. I don't know what he's saying
03:18:52 what he's saying which he thinks led me to say it. Um that would help me but the discussion in separation and the
03:19:03 the discussion in separation and the lawrence stuff has only been raised once with me and that is at their home and not anywhere else. I think you can find the context uh in which he says you said it. If we could go to the fourth paragraph
03:19:21 as can be seen surah should fully calm down by this stage and apologize to Alex. It may be that what he is saying is that you said it in the heat of a moment and um uh
03:19:32 moment and um uh may not now remember having said it. This is on the last sentence, sir.
03:19:44 This is on the last sentence, sir. Yes. I you were asking about the context in which he was reporting it and the context in which he's reporting it appears to be that you were speaking in an agitated way. Uh uh but by the time
03:19:55 an agitated way. Uh uh but by the time we get to what he's talking about here, you'd calm down.
03:20:03 No. Uh I remember a meeting at the end of the inquiry where the ticket is established, where the tickets are being distributed. Yeah.
03:20:12 Yeah. Um
03:20:20 Um there is a kind of a guffer about who wants tickets and who doesn't want tickets. Um
03:20:28 I maybe that u Alex is asking for a larger demonstration. I think that's true. But I don't even if I mean it says he said he also said there was someone very close to the Lawrence family. He
03:20:42 very close to the Lawrence family. He was on uncle term and his niece agent was actively advising the Lawrence family against any reelection. It doesn't follow that I would say after that that the family are separated or before that.
03:20:54 before that. No, I I was simply trying to show you the context in which this is being reported. I'm not asserting it's right, merely trying to point out to you the context in which it said it's being reported.
03:21:04 reported. I don't say it I wouldn't say it in the context that has been showed to me. Very well. That's you. Thank you for answering my questions. I'm grateful for that. Does anybody have any questions arising out of that? No.
03:21:17 arising out of that? No. Then uh that concludes today's evidential hearing. We will resume evidential hearings at 10 tomorrow.
03:21:24 All right.