Baroness Doreen Lawrence - Stephen Lawrence Murder and Spying

Full transcript

00:39:01 Will you put your thumbs up?

01:07:52 Good morning everybody. Um, today's proceedings are going to be broadcast after a 10-minute delay. Uh, those with mobile devices may use them to report what they're hearing in the

01:08:03 to report what they're hearing in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. Uh they may not be used for photography or recording. May uh Baron Laws be sworn, please.

01:08:14 May uh Baron Laws be sworn, please. Do I need to stand up for this? That's fine. You'd like to take a Bible and repeat after me. I swear by Almighty God

01:08:21 God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

01:08:36 nothing but the truth. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, Mr.

01:08:41 Yes, Mr. Thank you, sir. Good morning. Good morning. May you give your full name and title to the hearing, please? Um Baroness Doran Lawrence um of Clarendon.

01:08:56 Clarendon. You provided a witness statement to this inquiry. It was dated the 27th of June, 2025.

01:09:00 2025. Please may I have up on screen UCPI 38014?

01:09:03 38014? Sir, it's behind your tab A1

01:09:13 in the first page. Thank you. Do you recognize that as your statement? I can't see anything on my screen. Okay. It it it does it need to be switched on screen.

01:09:27 switched on screen. Sorry, we have trouble with technology. Is your screen showing anything? No.

01:09:40 Yeah,

01:09:45 I think.

01:10:05 Could we also switch the microphone on as well if it's not already on? Perhaps move it bit closer as well.

01:10:28 All working now. Yes.

01:10:33 Yes. Good. Can you now see the front page of your witness statement? Yes.

01:10:41 Yes. And going to the last page, page 62. And that was signed by you dated the 27th of June 2025. Yeah. But in the box there is no signature in the box. Okay. But you've that's been prived for your for your privacy. Yeah.

01:10:54 Yeah. Um do you uh uh confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? I can confirm that is true. Thank you. that will stand as your evidence to the inquiry in chief. Okay.

01:11:07 Okay. Now, the statement addresses your experience of the loss of your son, Steven Lawrence, um and also your subsequent fight for justice for him and for your family. Um and also your efforts to bring his murderers to justice

01:11:19 justice a and also to seek accountability for the failed police investigation into his death.

01:11:26 death. Um,

01:11:28 Um, in terms of the background, I'd like to start a little bit earlier and and look at your own background. As I understand you were born in Jamaica and your title, Baroness uh uh Dorene Lawrence of

01:11:41 Baroness uh uh Dorene Lawrence of Clarendon. That comes from the rural parish of Clarendon where where you were born and and grew up for the early part of your days. Yeah, that's true.

01:11:55 Yeah, that's true. Um, now you were born in the 50s. You came to England in the 1960s. Is that right? Yes. And you lived with your mother and stepfather in Southeast London. That's right. Um,

01:12:06 Um, when you left school, I think did you start to work in banking? Yes. Um, I worked for Net West Bank. Okay. You were particularly good at maths and that led you into that direction.

01:12:17 direction. Did you at that stage experience racial prejudice

01:12:23 prejudice um within within the office? um there were some but not to the extent that it really sort of um I think what prevented me from progressing is that um we had grades in the bank and you get to each

01:12:34 grades in the bank and you get to each grade and you move up and I got to the top of my grade and I still wasn't able to move up and I remember speaking to one of the managers and saying and plus

01:12:46 one of the managers and saying and plus I'm not being paid either and he more or less just said to me that the bank is not just going to pick up and give you Um,

01:12:52 Um, this time.

01:24:31 9. Uh, through Lewis, I received some bits of information about Dorene Lawrence, which he had received from people like Sheresh Grover, with whom Lewis was close. There was a rumor that did not reflect well on Dorene and had the potential to be used to discredit

01:24:45 the potential to be used to discredit her if true. I reported that on to HN86 verbally. I did not feel it was of enough significance to wrap up in write up in a report. I do not know what HN86

01:24:56 up in a report. I do not know what HN86 did with that information, if anything. Now, um, that can be taken down. We understand that that was a a suggestion that you were out partying that night. Um, you addressed that at paragraph 34

01:25:07 Um, you addressed that at paragraph 34 of your witness statement. If you want to have a look at that, I know you have it in front of you. What do you say about that?

01:25:25 about that? Partying. Well, I wasn't partying. Um I was with other groups of students um for the past two days. Um um we went to the part of the black countries but I was doing a humanities degree and that's where I was until I reached home. I was about about half 8 going 9:00 I reached home.

01:25:40 home. So what you're saying is there's no truth at all in a rumor that you were out uh uh partying that night. No truth at all. Um, I'd like to move then to the immediate aftermath of the murder. Uh,

01:25:53 immediate aftermath of the murder. Uh, at paragraph 42, you say that there were uh people coming to your house. There were many people coming to pay their respects, to visit and provide support to you and your family. Um,

01:26:07 Um, as well as people uh uh members of the public who were visiting, members of your family, there were also police officers who came to the house. Now, had you had much interaction with police officers before? If you did, did did you or your family have dealings with police officers?

01:26:18 officers? None whatsoever. Um, and what had been your opinion of police officers prior to Steven's death?

01:26:32 police officers prior to Steven's death? Um, I think before Steven, um, there was always the room about how police treated young black men, especially black men.

01:26:42 young black men, especially black men. Um, about, um, throw them in the back of the van, how they're beaten up. And one of the things I used to say to Stephen about when he's out of how he should walk home, always walk in the opposite direction of the traffic and and I would tell him all the stuff I used to read in the paper. And in Steven's opinion is that he's not doing anything wrong. So

01:27:00 that he's not doing anything wrong. So nothing should happen to him even though the stories that we were hearing, you know, that worried me. Okay. There were two family liaison officers in particular that were assigned to your family.

01:27:12 family. And you addressed this at paragraphs 42 to 44 and 57 to 58 of your witness statement. And you had a sense, I think, that they were surveilling your family rather than providing support um and

01:27:25 rather than providing support um and their interest was rooted in suspicion towards your family. Why do you suggest that?

01:27:32 that? I think before Steven's death, not having any interaction with police, I didn't understand why those officers was um was there. and they were there on a regular basis and the questions that

01:27:43 regular basis and the questions that they were asking and I think because we were giving them as much information that came to our house cuz people sort

01:27:57 that came to our house cuz people sort of turn up with um notes saying giving names of individuals we pass it on to them and I didn't understand why we weren't given any feedback and the questions I always ask what's happened to the names that we've given you and they could never answer and you know it's always who are these people what

01:28:09 it's always who are these people what are their names what are they doing here and as I said because not having any understanding about leers and officers now I know what what their position should be is that they should be

01:28:23 should be is that they should be informing us about how the investigation is going and that we didn't get that sense at all from them. Can I have up on screen please um UCPI 3258 page 13.

01:28:37 3258 page 13. This is a a a record of an interview by one of the fellows, Linda Holden. So, it's behind tab C14 in bundle three.

01:29:14 Thank you. Looking at line 24 then

01:29:24 uh uh sorry if I can have up line 20 uh sorry 24 to 33.

01:29:35 She was asked, "As as time went on and you were there, did you make records about who was present?" And Miss Holden replies, "Yes, whenever I went to the house, what we would have I don't know if you've seen them. When you went in, you would whoever was there, you would

01:29:46 you would whoever was there, you would make a note of whoever was there or you would say, well, I went to the house. I went to see Mrs. Lawrence or I went to see Mr. Lawrence about something. Whilst

01:30:00 see Mr. Lawrence about something. Whilst there, there was a relative, a sister or whatever." Asked, "So you take names?" She replies, "So you would take names and you would just put it on an action." So it was like, you know, you would have the front sheet and the middle sheet and and she goes on to note how the names were taken down and recorded.

01:30:16 were taken down and recorded. Can I have up on screen, please? UCPI 3259,

01:30:18 3259, page 8.

01:30:24 So this is behind C15 in bundle three.

01:30:32 And this is a record of an interview with the other fellow uh John Beavenon.

01:30:46 And when asked in the context of about writing down the names of visitors or groups to your home, he was asked at page 8 line 14.

01:30:53 At the end of the day, we are police officers trying to investigate. We're trying to provide support and a link to the family. If anything comes up that that in my experience as a detective needs to be addressed then it would have been and it would have been reported

01:31:10 been and it would have been reported back and to hell with the consequences to be quite honest. At the end of the day we are there to investigate the crime. We are trying to do it sensitively hence a conduit between the family and the investigation team being family liaison officer. And at page nine, line 27, please.

01:31:39 He was asked, did you at some time write down the name, write down some of the details of who was there? And he replies, no, there was no need for me to do that. I didn't feel it relevant. I remember some of the bodies that were there, and they were heavily overtaken.

01:31:51 there, and they were heavily overtaken. I remember particularly two bodies, one being the ANC, which was the African National Congress, and the AI AR, which was the Anti-Racist Alliance.

01:32:07 And I remember uh they were there. Can we go over the page to page 10, please?

01:32:19 I remember seeing and I think maybe commenting I'm pretty sure I would have commented in one of the general meetings that we had to share information that the family had been taken over had been overtaken pardon

01:32:30 overtaken pardon by plenty of different factions trying to obviously make a political point but I haven't made any specific notes I didn't feel that was relevant my role in my head was clear which was to support

01:32:42 my head was clear which was to support and be that conduit for the family and be a method of initial communication for them should they need it and to investigate the murder. Who was there at the family I suppose could have been relevant but I didn't feel it was so

01:32:59 relevant but I didn't feel it was so have made no record of it. I was not requested to either. and page 11 please

01:33:09 at the top line one uh the first paragraph

01:33:11 paragraph he said I suppose that it is just the inquisitive nature of being a C officer from the look and the sound of people there it probably very very quickly became obvious that they are not uh

01:33:24 became obvious that they are not uh close family members or friends they are people there for an ulterior motive and I obviously felt it pertinent trying to be subtle about it to ask who who are all these people. The house was full. Maybe there were 20 people milling

01:33:36 Maybe there were 20 people milling around who obviously don't know where they are, don't know the family. And the question was in my mind and still is a perfectly reasonable one. Who are all these people in your house?

01:33:49 these people in your house? Thank you. That can be taken down.

01:33:56 Uh,

01:34:08 do you recall the FLO's noting down the people who were attending at your house in the immediate aftermath of Steven's death?

01:34:15 death? Um, I don't remember them physically writing anything down, but I do remember them asking the question, who are these people? And in one of the things you that you brought up um about the ANC, I don't remember anything about the ANC um being in our house. The AR Yes.

01:34:30 being in our house. The AR Yes. um I know about them and okay the major majority of those people I would have not not have met them before so I didn't know anything about them

01:34:41 know anything about them and what do you say about this report that people were visiting you for an ulterior motive and that it was information that was of interest to a murder investigation um I think the people who were visiting um um after Steven's murder they were

01:34:54 um um after Steven's murder they were there to sort to chose support. Um if they had any other um political view, I would have no idea um about that. But in my opinion, they were there just to support us.

01:35:11 If it was suggested that the FLO's were just looking to build up a picture of Steven, do you accept that? No, because they weren't asking about Steven. They weren't they weren't asking question about him as a as an individual or even of us.

01:35:28 Peter Francis says um that he was given a list of names from that had been derived from the FLOS's who recorded the visitors attending your home and that he was asked by his superior officer to

01:35:40 was asked by his superior officer to establish whether any visitor who had political affiliations were known to the SDS and whether they may create a public order issue. Um, can we have up on

01:35:57 order issue. Um, can we have up on screen please, Peter Franc's witness statement, uh, UCPI 36012, paragraph 243.

01:36:18 So he says it was a list of names I was told came from the family liaison officers at the home of Dorina Neville Lawrence who recorded all the visitors to the house

01:36:30 to the house and HN86 wanted to know if any of the visitors had particular political affiliations. Um he says that the list was stapled into the back of my diary and I would regularly check back on it for the first three or four months in the field.

01:36:50 three or four months in the field. Um can you you can't recall a particular list of names at all that was created? Um not by the um no

01:37:02 thank you. that can be taken down

01:37:10 other than family, friends, and neighbors or individuals, groups attending your home in the days after Steven's death.

01:37:21 Steven's death. Um, sorry, some of those individuals and groups attending your home. um you've listed some of them and at paragraph 47 and 54 you mentioned Palmer Black and Mark Wodsworth from the ARRA.

01:37:35 Mark Wodsworth from the ARRA. I think you said just a moment ago that they were regular attenders uh in the immediate a aftermath and and would they regularly come to the to your home and provide support? Yes.

01:37:54 on the Saturday after Steven's death. You say that the ENL attended with Black Panthers. Do you recall that? As I say, in those first in the first week, I couldn't tell you who and who

01:38:06 week, I couldn't tell you who and who was there and what their names are, any of those things. I couldn't say that. But I know there was various group um who attended. I couldn't say exactly. As I said, the first um week

01:38:18 I said, the first um week um I was more or less locked up in my room. Um I know there's loads of people was there, but I couldn't identify to

01:38:30 was there, but I couldn't identify to say these specific people who apart from my family and friends that I knew beforehand. And did anybody warn you at that point not to get involved with certain groups because they might be dangerous? No.

01:38:42 No. Um,

01:38:48 at paragraph 53, you do say that when the Black Panthers attended, uh, they were dressed in Huds and Glasses and and and Palmer, um, Black may have suggested to you not to get involved. Do you do

01:38:59 to you not to get involved. Do you do you recall that? If you want to have a look, it's paragraph 53.

01:39:14 Uh you say you were a little frightened because of the Huds and and dark glasses. Um and I remember Palmer said to me that we did not want to get involved with them as they are dangerous and and and Palmer had been there more

01:39:27 and and and Palmer had been there more or less every day. Does that ring a bell at all?

01:39:30 at all? It does. It um slightly. Yes. Okay. Um

01:39:41 uh did anybody else anybody else suggest that you you you shouldn't get involved with certain groups? Do you recall? No.

01:39:46 No. Okay.

01:39:51 Okay. Um and and one of the people that is is here today and has been with you throughout is Imran Khan Casey. Uh do you remember him attending from the early days? Yes. Um he came to see us on the Sunday.

01:40:09 Um you say that Imran Khan Casey it took a lot of effort to try and get answers for you but he was often uh met with a wall of silence. Can you explain about that a little bit?

01:40:24 that a little bit? I think for um for me what I wanted to know is that because all the names were given and we passed them on either through Mr. Khn or through the fellow that came. I've always wanted to know, you know, what's happened to those names? Were they looked into? So those

01:40:42 names? Were they looked into? So those are the questions I kept asking because, you know, nobody's given me any any um any answers at all.

01:40:50 And also in your statement at paragraph 65, you mentioned that the police were questioning Steven's friends at his school. How did you come to know about that?

01:40:56 that? um quite a few of his friends would come and visit and that's how I knew um about that. They would say that the police were questioning them. I would not have um um and I would say like see this

01:41:09 um um and I would say like see this close friend as as I see this close friend would have been Elvin who who would have come and told me that. Um,

01:41:19 Um, was there a suggestion or at least a perception that because Steven was a young black boy, he must have been involved in gangs?

01:41:31 involved in gangs? I think that's that's what we heard. Um, because there was questions about why was he out and where was he coming from? What was he doing? And I presume during that time for young black men there's

01:41:44 that time for young black men there's always this assumption. And one of the things that I was told um when I kept asking questions is that we've never met a family like you before. And the assumption who who was saying that

01:41:57 who who was saying that um police officers were saying that they've never met anybody like us before. And the assumption is that you know that my son must been a criminal.

01:42:09 know that my son must been a criminal. And that was what they kept bringing up because we we're supposed to be so different. So, what did you take that to mean about your family? That we must be criminals and we had no um engagement with police beforehand.

01:42:27 um engagement with police beforehand. And so that was quite disturbing because automatically you're put into a a category that as blacks you are criminals. And there's nothing about me, my background or anything could ever give you that impression.

01:42:38 give you that impression. But that's the impression that they that they um they draw about us. Now on the 6th of May that year, you met Nelson Mandela. He was uh visiting

01:42:49 Nelson Mandela. He was uh visiting London and he did he come to your home? No, we we met him in um up in London in in I'm not sure if it was his hotel up in London that we met him.

01:43:02 in London that we met him. Okay. And what was the impact of his visit?

01:43:07 visit? his visit brought about the arrests of some of the um of the individuals because I think before that um when we were giving information to the police, nothing had happened and because he

01:43:23 nothing had happened and because he spoke out after our meeting to say that he knows that black lives are cheap in South Africa, he did not expect that here in this country.

01:43:36 here in this country. Um those arrests of uh the suspects were made on the 7th of May. the day after he arrived and spoke with you. Yes.

01:43:40 Yes. Um and there was one further arrest on the 6th at the 3rd of June. Um but the CPS dropped those charges on the 29th of July due to insufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of

01:43:54 provide a realistic prospect of conviction. What impact did that have on you? We were quite devastated by that because I think with all the information that we were passing on to the police, it goes to show that they did nothing with it. And so they weren't interested

01:44:08 with it. And so they weren't interested in um investigating Steven's murder cuz had they been interested, they would have followed up all the information that we had given them. And people in the area was giving them, they took no notice of any of that.

01:44:20 notice of any of that. On the 8th of May, there was an anti-racist march held in Welling. We know that's the the first Welling uh uh uh march. You weren't there, I don't think, were you? No.

01:44:36 No. And you'd made it clear that you didn't want Steven's name to be associated with violence, and you'd made that clear right from the very start, I think, hadn't you? Yes.

01:44:42 Yes. Um,

01:44:51 had you made that as ai that opposition to any violence, public disorder being associated with with Steven and your family, you'd made that a united position within your family, had you? Def. Yes. Yes, we did.

01:45:11 Yes. Yes, we did. Um, and was it clear once we come to the campaign being set up that that was the position that the campaign was taking? Yes, it was. Um, you you say in your statement that you nevertheless understood how frustrating it was that the police were

01:45:22 frustrating it was that the police were to take the outburst more seriously than what had actually caused it. Do you want to just expand on what you mean by that? I suppose um when you think about the

01:45:36 I suppose um when you think about the injuries that Steven had when Steven was killed um my my assumption is that they'd be so outraged like we were about what happened to him how you know um

01:45:47 what happened to him how you know um later when when I heard about you know the stabbing and all you know the main archery that was severed I just thought that they would be so outraged that they would want to do whatever they could to

01:46:02 would want to do whatever they could to bring Steven skill us to justice and the mere fact that they weren't interested, they showed no interest whatsoever. And if we wasn't keep speaking out and challenging what was happening, I think

01:46:14 challenging what was happening, I think to this day we would never have got any conviction whatsoever. Is is there a sense from you then that your perception was the police were prioritizing the wrong thing

01:46:27 prioritizing the wrong thing that they that they tackled if they tackled racist crime properly they wouldn't then have to deal with the consequences of uh the the the uh uh attack afterwards and

01:46:43 the the the uh uh attack afterwards and the demonstrations held by the public. I think if you look at it doesn't matter who um who's the victims and that is what the police should be looking at and to have a black and white thing within their their mind of how they investigate

01:46:57 their their mind of how they investigate um crimes. Now Steve was a young man had no um criminality about him. the fact that he was murdered in the way in which he was, I would have thought the police would be so outraged, not because he's

01:47:08 would be so outraged, not because he's um look at race to start off with, but as a as a human being, to be so outraged that what they want to do is to make sure that they caught Steven's killers,

01:47:21 sure that they caught Steven's killers, but they weren't. And then this is when they start think about the racism because had Steven been white, they would have they would have looked at it completely different than how they looked at Steven's murder.

01:47:41 In terms of that Welling demonstration, um the inquiry understands that Dwayne Brooks attended the march which went past the BMP building. And Peter Francis's evidence about that is that he was then asked to identify Dwayne Brooks in hours of footage. Now whether it was actually uh him that identified uh Mr.

01:47:56 actually uh him that identified uh Mr. Brooks or whether Mr. Brooks had already been identified by another uniformed officer, Mr. Brooks was prosecuted for violent disorder and criminal damage. And both those charges were later stage of an abusive process. But what did you

01:48:15 of an abusive process. But what did you understand was the uh police involvement and the consequences for Steven's case following that? I um at the time is where rather than them as I said investigating Steven's murder, they wanted to discredit Dwayne as um

01:48:29 as um to discredit him. And so anything that they could do because if if um Dwayne was the witness, then he should be able to tell the police exactly what happened on the night. And so by singling him out in the way in which that in in the way

01:48:44 in the way in which that in in the way in which they did is what they're trying to do is is to discredit anything that he had to say.

01:48:49 You set out in your witness statement that the Greenwich Action Committee against racist racist attacks organized a candle lit vigil and you heard that from Palmer. Uh the family weren't

01:49:02 from Palmer. Uh the family weren't consulted but you say you weren't too concerned about that at the time. Did you at some point become concerned with other groups using Steven's name in furtherance of their interests?

01:49:18 furtherance of their interests? Yes. Yes, we did. Yes. Um I think because after a while you just be you begin to realize that Steven's death attracted quite a lot of people and in in in a lot positive because they wanted to support um the family and to get justice for Steven.

01:49:31 family and to get justice for Steven. But then you begin to think, okay, what else is there? Um, I know nothing about politics at the time to say that's that's what they were doing. I have no idea about that. But it just became

01:49:42 idea about that. But it just became quite clear to us that I wanted to make sure whatever was happening was focusing on Steven and Steven only.

01:49:56 on Steven and Steven only. You set up um with Dr. Neville Lawrence and and others the Steven Lawrence family campaign. How did that campaign come about? I think it came about because where the police wasn't doing anything and you know our voices just was on deaf ear

01:50:12 know our voices just was on deaf ear to us the police wasn't doing looking into Steven's death. They were questioning all the all the um individuals that we were given to them.

01:50:23 individuals that we were given to them. So I presume we wanted to make everybody understand and know that here we are trying to fight for justice and I mean so you know we wanted to support the

01:50:34 so you know we wanted to support the police you know we really wanted to help and support but they weren't doing anything. So this is how come the campaign came about to highlight Steven's murder and not getting justice for him.

01:50:43 for him. So you felt compelled that you had to do something yourselves. Yes. and and and make this a bigger issue and force the the issue.

01:50:56 the issue. Exactly. Because as I say, the police wasn't doing anything. They they had no concern about us as a family or what happened to my son. At paragraph 77 of your statement, you say that it was a fairly informal group and it involved a number of people.

01:51:07 and it involved a number of people. Baroness uh Rosalind Howells, the ANL, the ARRA, particularly Palmer Black and Mark Wodsworth, your cousin, sister Imran Khn, Casey, and then there were

01:51:19 Imran Khn, Casey, and then there were links to trade unions as well. Is that the extent of the campaign at the time uh when it was first set up? At the time, yes. And you say at paragraph 78 that later

01:51:34 And you say at paragraph 78 that later the trade unions were strong supporters of the Steven Lawrence Task Group and the Steven Lawrence charitable trust. Do you just want to explain briefly what those two organizations were?

01:51:51 those two organizations were? Um the union um with John Marx with a campaign for justice. I think quite a few of the people within within the union had taken taken up on supporting us. And back in 98 we started the um Steve Lawrence title for trust. Steve

01:52:04 Steve Lawrence title for trust. Steve wanted to be an architect and and how I looked at things is to look at the positive around Steven's murder. And so the campaign was focusing on on the

01:52:15 the campaign was focusing on on the positive around him. The um the charity was to look to support other young people like Steven who wanted to study architecture. And so we um when it was set up we sort

01:52:28 And so we um when it was set up we sort of highlighted three areas. So it's like South Africa we got the support that Nelson Mandela gave us. Jamaica because of where our family is from and here in the UK. And so the first students that we gave any funding to was in Jamaica

01:52:40 we gave any funding to was in Jamaica that we gave u we gave um funding to and they were master students. And so, and I think because I wanted um to focus on a

01:52:55 think because I wanted um to focus on a positive side and to support other young people like Stephen, especially I suppose you say um in the black community cuz um within the black community, architecture is not something that's readily um at the forefront of

01:53:08 that's readily um at the forefront of young students growing up. Steven had that within him and so we wanted to highlight that and we was going to schools to talk to um students and we

01:53:19 schools to talk to um students and we employed um somebody who completed her part two. So she was able to talk to students about the process you go through in other in order to study architecture.

01:53:30 architecture. At paragraph 79 of your statement, you mentioned that on the 3rd of August 1993,

01:53:31 1993, you asked the Minister of State of the Home Office, who was at the time Peter Lloyd, for an independent inquiry into the police handling of Steven's murder investigation.

01:53:42 investigation. But he in return said, "Well, we need the evidence to be able to support the request for for an inquiry." What do you say about that? So, it just goes to show that the police collected no evidence whatsoever on the

01:54:00 collected no evidence whatsoever on the night that Steve was killed. Um, and um this Peter Taylor I said he um it was Ross House who Peter Lloyd who Ross brought to our house and I presume we were told about our concerns around not getting anywhere and the police not

01:54:11 getting anywhere and the police not doing anything around Steven's murder. And so to talk about evidence, they did not collect the evidence and if they did, they did nothing with it. Um, and so did that frustrate your

01:54:22 Um, and so did that frustrate your request for an inquiry at that stage? Well, definitely because we it's I suppose it's difficult to talk about the fight and the struggle that we had to go through. Um, it's like an everyday

01:54:33 through. Um, it's like an everyday thing. Um, the police did not want to know. People in authority did not want to know. You know, it just another black boy has been murdered. You know, so

01:54:46 boy has been murdered. You know, so what? And that's and that's how I felt. We were ignored, constantly being ignored. Even though we raised our concerns, nobody was listening to us. In fact, you go on to say at paragraph 80

01:54:58 fact, you go on to say at paragraph 80 that the senior officers were furious at the increasing pressure on them. In particular, you make reference to deputy assistant commissioner David Osland who was in charge of three area in met

01:55:09 was in charge of three area in met policing uh uh area which was in in encompass southeast London where where you were. Um, we've seen him previously in the course of this tranch on the

01:55:25 in the course of this tranch on the world in action footage uh in respect of Welling where he questioned why demonstrators wanted to walk past the BMP headquarters and in relation to the Steven Lawrence um campaign. He wrote a note to

01:55:40 um campaign. He wrote a note to Commissioner Paul Condom on the 8th of September 1993 to express his fr frustrations at public criticisms.

01:55:54 criticisms. Uh reference is made to this in the note of the McFersonen report paragraph 29.38.

01:56:03 29.38. We don't have that to pull up on screen, but if I may quote from it, paragraph 29.38, Mr. Osland's reaction to statements made by or on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence in connection with the police have been most unfortunate and

01:56:20 police have been most unfortunate and wounding to them. As early as the 8th of September 1993, Mr. Osland wrote a note to the commissioner indicating that he and others felt their patience was in quotes wearing thin on three area not only with the Lawrence family and their representatives but also with

01:56:31 representatives but also with self-appointed public and media commentators. The note continued and I quote, "I am totally satisfied that the Lawrence family have received a professional,

01:56:42 family have received a professional, sensitive, and sympathetic service from the police." End quote. What do you say about that?

01:56:53 What do you say about that? Well, the question question I would ask if we received all what he said, why are we here today? Because we did not receive any of that.

01:57:04 Because we did not receive any of that. Because even though we tried to help and support, we weren't criticizing at the beginning. We started to criticize because nothing was happening. We used to go to police um uh police station in Plumstead.

01:57:17 Plumstead. And when we were told that that they were just thugs, the mere fact that they knew about these individuals because of what they were doing in the era before, I wouldn't have known anything about them. So the minute that Steven was murdered, the fact that

01:57:33 that Steven was murdered, the fact that other people bringing who I didn't know, bringing all their names to us saying that we know it's them and we give this information to the police, then we've done everything that we could do to

01:57:44 done everything that we could do to support the police, but in the end they did nothing to support us. DAC David Osland did agree to an independent review of the case and he uh commissioned DCS detective chief

01:57:59 commissioned DCS detective chief superintendent John Barker to conduct that review in the autumn of 1993.

01:58:08 um he was an officer of the Met Police and in November 1993 the Barker Review concluded and I quote the investigation has progressed satisfactorily and all

01:58:20 has progressed satisfactorily and all lines of inquiry were colle correctly pursued end quote and he had blamed quote involvement of active politically

01:58:34 quote involvement of active politically motivated groups close quotes which had open quote hampered press and media relations, close quotes. And you say that was demonstrating hostility to the family and your supporters. Is that right?

01:58:57 supporters. Is that right? That's right. When we um I think just before he started to do his review, this is um Mr. Barker. We we saw him and we expressed our concerns. We we talked about how we've been trying our very best to support the police however we can. And he said to us that he would

01:59:15 can. And he said to us that he would come back and speak to us at the end of his report before it goes anywhere so that we would know exactly what was going to happen in the report. He didn't do any of that. We didn't see the report. The only time we had a glimpse of the report was after um the

01:59:32 of the report was after um the commissioner uh decided to um set up or look into another review or another investigation. I can't remember the um the police um name. Was that the Kent Police?

01:59:47 Was that the Kent Police? No, this is um before the Kent Police. The Kent Police came after the um after 97. Um

01:59:58 97. Um so this is the 1995 review. Yes. So, um, and that officer I felt was a lot more honest and truthful to us. But before that, we had nothing, no truth, no, no honesty from the other police before him. So, so you didn't accept the conclusions drawn by the Barker Review.

02:00:12 drawn by the Barker Review. We didn't even know about that. We is it was when this other investigation was set up and we went to a meeting and we

02:00:25 set up and we went to a meeting and we were shown the document but we couldn't read that at that time and that and we weren't allowed to keep it. So I couldn't say what was in the report properly cuz we weren't allowed to read and digest it. We were only told that this has happened.

02:00:43 this has happened. When we come on to briefly look at the McFersonen inquiry, um that inquiry found that the Barker review was factually incorrect and inadequate and

02:00:55 factually incorrect and inadequate and was referred to as a flawed and indefend indefensible report. Do do you recall that and do you agree with that conclusion? Definitely. I definitely agree with that.

02:01:01 that. um you had various ongoing meetings with senior officers during the months that followed Steven's murder and during the course of those months you say that tensions between the several big groups that had taken an interest in the campaign for justice heightened in the

02:01:18 campaign for justice heightened in the summer. So, you had the SWP and ENL uh who wished for a demo in Southeast London and you had the ARRA and the Steven Lawrence campaign who wished for a demonstration in central London. Is that right?

02:01:29 that right? Yes.

02:01:37 Yes. Now, I think some of this played out while you were abroad at burying Steven. Yes.

02:01:39 Yes. And and at that stage the ANL did organize a demonstration in Southeast London and that was the Welling uh uh demonstration that we've heard lots about and it took place on the 16th of October 1993. Do you recall that?

02:01:58 October 1993. Do you recall that? Yeah. Um I understand around the ANL par they were going to do a demonstration in central London and then after Steven's death that's when they decided to move it down to Wellin um at the BMP book bookshop.

02:02:07 bookshop. That's that that's what I heard and that's what I understand why it was moved from central London down to Well, uh you and your family didn't attend that march.

02:02:23 that march. Do you have any comment on how that may have affected your campaign had you attended?

02:02:29 attended? Um I don't really know because I think I don't like marches. So I don't go on marches. I don't I don't feel that at times that really benefits you in a way

02:02:42 times that really benefits you in a way and and then after that happened and how that was reported it shows that um I mean the family was blamed for that it it had like a burnt out car on one side

02:02:55 it had like a burnt out car on one side us in the middle and the BMP shop at the other and it was like it was reported that we were the cause of that violence and what happened and we had nothing to do with that. So that's how it was written up in the press.

02:03:06 press. Yes.

02:03:13 Yes. Um were you as a family or as a campaign group ever forewarned that there was going to be a risk of violence or disorder at that Welling demonstration? No, cuz we had nothing to do with that. We we weren't a part of it. We had nothing to do. So we didn't know

02:03:25 nothing to do. So we didn't know anything about that. So you hadn't been told anything specific about the risk of disorder at Welling? No. Um

02:03:37 Um it came about that you did send a letter to the ANL and the ARRA asking them to stop using Steven's name and you didn't want as as you've already said other

02:03:48 want as as you've already said other agendas overshadowing your search for justice for Steven. Um and can you recall when you sent that letter? So was it around this time?

02:04:00 letter? So was it around this time? it would have been um I think leading on from May going onwards I felt that um people wanted to use Steven's name and I disagreed with that because what what

02:04:11 disagreed with that because what what all that we wanted was was the justice around him to make sure that individuals arrested charged and put behind bars and that was always been my so um having

02:04:26 that was always been my so um having what happened in Wellin is not something that we would supported. Um there would you agree there's some benefit to the groups that did support your campaign because it raised the

02:04:37 your campaign because it raised the profile. There was publicity around it and that gave you as a as a family as an as a campaign a voice to be able to make demands of the state.

02:04:49 demands of the state. I would agree with that in to a certain extent but at the same time um with um the law our lawyer at the time we were writing to the various people who we

02:05:00 writing to the various people who we felt we needed to um make our voices known um I don't always agree with demonstration but yes it did raise the profile of Steven but it still didn't

02:05:11 profile of Steven but it still didn't really get us anywhere because we still had to be campaigning and speaking to you know police officers and people like that trying to for them to hear and

02:05:22 that trying to for them to hear and understand what it is that we wanted and that took years. Is it right that you you were very clear what you wanted to to do? You obviously

02:05:33 what you wanted to to do? You obviously had one very clear objective um and you weren't going to be influenced by others. So you weren't going to be influenced and overrun by other campaign groups with different agendas. No, definitely not.

02:05:45 No, definitely not. Uh, and is it right that you were more than capable of organizing and managing your own campaign? Yes.

02:05:57 Yes. Um, I want to address a couple of issues about racism. Um, there's been an allegation made by Peter Francis against

02:06:11 allegation made by Peter Francis against the detective chief inspector who was in charge of the SDS uh when Steven was killed. That's HN86.

02:06:22 and allegations uh against his boss, the superintendent, Robert Potter. If I can have up on screen, please UCPI 3612,

02:06:28 page 27.

02:06:34 It's paragraph 158, please.

02:06:40 Uh Mr. Francis says that I witnessed much more overt racism from certain members of management. HN86 would refer to the black justice campaigns using the term monkeys. He also described the

02:06:54 term monkeys. He also described the Lawrence family campaign as being led by Imran Khn quote by the rings through their noses end quote being a reference to a racist stereotype I had also heard previously in the police service.

02:07:11 previously in the police service. The special branch attitude towards the Lawrence family was 100% racist. They were viewed as unable to think for themselves or come up with and run their campaign themselves. So, it was considered they must be being led by someone else.

02:07:22 someone else. Um,

02:07:25 Um, Baroness Lawrence, you can't comment on the truth of what has been said or what is alleged to have been heard by Mr.

02:07:41 is alleged to have been heard by Mr. Francis, but what do you say about your ability to manage your campaign and uh uh come up with and run the campaign yourselves as a family group and as a as a a justice campaign group?

02:07:53 a a justice campaign group? I think like I've said before um whenever we met with police officers, they would say things like, "We've never met anybody like you before." I think they believe that as a as a black person, you can't string two sentences together and that many times I think

02:08:11 together and that many times I think they believe that Mr. Connor had to had to speak on my behalf and tell me what to say, which is so further from the truth. Um, so I think that they have this opinion of what a black person is

02:08:23 this opinion of what a black person is like, what a black family is like, and so that seems to influence the way in which they think about people. And when they used to say to me, you're not like other families. My thing was like,

02:08:36 other families. My thing was like, there's millions of people like me. I am no different. You know, you may have 1% or half a percent of of um individuals who are criminals, but it does not mean the majority of people are. And so I would always question that and say, you

02:08:52 would always question that and say, you know, and I think sometimes what by them saying that to me is trying to make me feel as if I'm more important than anybody else. And I would always make sure that there's millions of people like me. There's millions of people like me. So I am no different

02:09:08 me. So I am no different in terms of that can be taken down from the screen now, please. In in terms of these overt racist comments um that have have been alleged, uh HN86 categorically denies that he ever made

02:09:19 categorically denies that he ever made such comments. And um Robert Potter is now deceased, so he can't uh respond to those allegations. But did you ever hear overt racist

02:09:31 But did you ever hear overt racist comments made about uh your family or the campaign during the course of your dealings with the police?

02:09:45 dealings with the police? I think the police is always very clever and not able to speak in those terms, but you can always by their actions. You can always determine exactly what they're saying to you. Um, whenever I

02:09:59 they're saying to you. Um, whenever I ever speak to, as I say, because I'm I'm not used to speaking to police officers before, so this is like my very first time. And so when when we had our um our tires and our car um being slashed um

02:10:11 tires and our car um being slashed um when I was told about people watching our house, all these things, you know, you go and you talk to police officers and it's like they're so dismissive of

02:10:23 and it's like they're so dismissive of anything that you have to say. Um when you say there's people watching your house, like who's watching your house? What? As if to say we're not telling the truth to them. I have no reason to lie to you because all I want to do is to

02:10:38 to you because all I want to do is to help and support you so you can get so you can bring those individuals um to justice. And that's always been my primary and everything that I've I've done over the years is to always speak the truth, question

02:10:56 is to always speak the truth, question when I think you're not telling me what I need to hear and challenge you. And because I've always said to anybody, I've never um I've always been respectful. Nobody can ever say I've been disrespectful to any officer.

02:11:08 officer. All my questioning is always been in in a way in which I expect them to have respect for me as I have respect for them. And so that's always been my way of behaving, but I don't feel as if I've always had that from police officers.

02:11:24 Thank you. Now, there's another allegation that has been made by Mr. Francis, and it's at paragraph 245 of his witness statement,

02:11:35 which is UCPI 36012.

02:11:46 Thank you. And this is the smearing allegation. Now, he he he he's being clear um in subsequent um uh accounts that to be clear, smearing is not lying. It's

02:11:59 clear, smearing is not lying. It's finding facts that can be used against someone. And in particular in relation to your campaign, he said that um he was tasked and by that he means finding any

02:12:16 tasked and by that he means finding any information that is true but which could be used to portray the campaign or the family in a negative light or even destroy the campaign. It could have been anything. Radical left-wing political affiliations, drug use, an unhappy family home.

02:12:32 family home. Now, you'll be aware that it's disputed by uh HN86 that Mr. Francis was ever tasked to to smear the campaign or find information, find dirt that could affect

02:12:46 information, find dirt that could affect the uh uh effectiveness of the campaign. Uh but if it was true and if there was an undercover officer that was tasked to find some dirt on you that could be used

02:13:01 find some dirt on you that could be used against you, what do you say about that? What I would say if if they're able to put that amount of attention and resources

02:13:02 resources into to discredit us as a family, if they put that amount of attention into seeking and to finding Steven's murderer, we would not be sitting here today.

02:13:25 Do you believe that there are some sections of the community that if this allegation were true would be more likely to be the subject of such treatment than others? Could you repeat that again, please? If this allegation about smearing um in the context as as as it meant was

02:13:40 um in the context as as as it meant was true, if Mr. Francis had been tasked to to to uncover some criticism of the campaign that could be used to undermine it or prevent it. Do you think that sort of behavior might be used against

02:13:55 of behavior might be used against certain certain populations, certain demographics, certain parts of the community more than others? Well, definitely. I think that sometime the amount of information I receive from members of the public of how they felt,

02:14:11 members of the public of how they felt, how they've been treated and and I would definitely believe that's true. I would definitely because there are times that we have no say in how we are treated. We have as as if to say we have no rights

02:14:26 have as as if to say we have no rights to expect much better treatment and even to be treated like everybody else. I think all the time during Steven's um in investigation, all I wanted is to be treated the same. I wasn't looking for

02:14:39 treated the same. I wasn't looking for special treatment. Somebody had died. It is your job to investigate that murder. And that's all I was asking for. Nothing else. And so to to to spend their time looking to smear and to find things to

02:14:50 looking to smear and to find things to destroy us as a family. As I say, it's it's it's hard to believe that people go to that extreme.

02:15:04 Moving on towards the end of 1993, on the 21st of December 93, there was the first inquest into Steven's death that opened.

02:15:11 opened. Um it was April 1994 when you met with Commissioner Paul Condon. So that was close to the anniversary of Steven's death. Um and

02:15:26 anniversary of Steven's death. Um and you'd had ongoing meetings with a number of senior officers before that time. Is that right? Yes.

02:15:32 Yes. And you say at paragraph 95 of your statement that the Steven Lawrence campaign was officially founded in June 1994.

02:15:40 1994. So whereas it was a fairly informal campaign group, family support group up

02:15:51 campaign group, family support group up until that point, June 1994, that's when it's formally established. Is that right?

02:15:52 right? Yeah, I could say that. Yes. Uh and the aims and the objectives were still seeking justice, truth, and

02:16:07 still seeking justice, truth, and fundraising for uh to cover the cost of a private prosecution of the suspects. Yes. Is that right?

02:16:16 Um Neville Lawrence was having meetings with the monitoring group, Movement for Justice, Alex Olawadi, and others according to your recollection. Is that right?

02:16:25 right? Um whatever meetings that um Neville was having, I didn't know anything about them. I mean, it says I only knew about them through the statements that I've read um about having meetings with them. I didn't know anything about that. I is

02:16:39 I didn't know anything about that. I is it right that he was more involved with the different groups than you were because you were largely looking after your two children? Yeah, you could say that. Yes. And and plus I was studying as well at the time.

02:16:55 plus I was studying as well at the time. Okay. And they were still relatively young. 16 and 11 I think they were at that time, weren't they? Yes.

02:17:01 Yes. Um and so I'm going to ask you a little bit about your knowledge of the groups. uh recognizing that actually you have fairly limited knowledge about them. Um but if I may just ask you firstly about

02:17:16 but if I may just ask you firstly about the monitoring group and Sheresh Grover um it did you know him and how did you come to know him? Um I didn't know him beforehand. Um he we met him I think probably late um 93

02:17:35 we met him I think probably late um 93 going to 94. Um and he he was there to help us to um run the campaign. Um as I say, I didn't know him beforehand and so he was it he was playing um a supporting role.

02:17:47 playing um a supporting role. Okay. It it may may have been earlier on in 1993. Does that does that ring true? Was he one of the first people that were around? um because we we left for

02:18:03 around? um because we we left for Jamaica in um in beginning of July and I think probably just before that we probably would have I would have met him.

02:18:06 him. Okay.

02:18:16 Okay. Um movement for justice. Uh did you know the people who were part of that organization personally? No.

02:18:25 No. Um did you know about the group itself? Not beforehand. No. Okay. Did you ever meet with Alex Olawad, Karen Doyle, Lewis, Tony Guard? Do you remember these people?

02:18:38 people? I think I probably have met them at some meeting, but not really. I didn't really know them. Did you understand the objectives of their organization, which was a wider anti-racist campaign?

02:18:52 anti-racist campaign? No. I think the only thing I knew is um later on since I've been reading um since the inquiry was reading things about them. I didn't really know anything about them.

02:19:08 anything about them. Um the newer monitoring group uh which was headed by Assad Raymond, do you recall him? Yes.

02:19:14 Yes. And what did you know about uh the group, the newer monitoring group?

02:19:25 group, the newer monitoring group? I didn't know very much. Um I think my first meeting of um Assad was probably going um when we went to South Africa when they were looking at racism and xenophobia. I didn't really know him before that

02:19:35 at that meeting was in 2001. Is that right? Yes. When you went to an international conference in South Africa.

02:19:39 Africa. Yes.

02:19:45 Yes. Um the Nation of Islam. Do you remember uh that group? Yes.

02:19:50 Yes. And had they had a relationship with the Steven Lawrence campaign or the wider support group from a relatively early stage? No, I think they um

02:20:04 No, I think they um I'm trying to think when I really knew about them. I think I've always heard about them but never met them before. And so in the beginning that as far as I know they weren't part of the campaign.

02:20:19 know they weren't part of the campaign. Okay. Um, specifically, I think you became very aware of them when they were at Hannibal House where the Steven Lawrence inquiry was being held. Yes. And we'll come to that in a bit more detail on that day that the the suspects attended.

02:20:32 attended. Um, SWP and the ANL. Do you recall much about that group? Um, I knew about the ANL. The SWP I'm not certain about them.

02:20:44 not certain about them. Um you say in your statement that you understand they were actively participating in certain campaigns um uh sorry certain campaign related

02:20:56 um uh sorry certain campaign related activities as well as attending some of the campaign meetings and engaged with other organization in other organizations and groups sharing the interests in the campaign. Is that about the extent of your knowledge of them? Yes.

02:21:08 Yes. Um

02:21:09 Um finally then the ARRA we've heard Palmer Black and Mark Wodsworth were uh attending at your home fairly early on um and were there to

02:21:22 fairly early on um and were there to offer support. Is there anything else you want to tell us about that? Um I suppose for Mark I I didn't knew nothing about Palmer Black beforehand. Mark Wsworth I would have known about

02:21:36 Mark Wsworth I would have known about him because he was a a journalist. So he would be doing I don't know the lo the local news. I used to see um see him on the TV

02:21:43 the TV but before I I didn't know him personally. Okay.

02:21:45 Okay. And is it right to say that very much the support was coming to you and your family. You weren't going to support other uh campaigns or other things that these groups were associated with?

02:22:00 these groups were associated with? No, they they were coming to um to support our campaign. And did any of these groups or individuals uh manipulate you, lead you into uh uh uh uh campaigning in a way that you didn't want to or

02:22:11 want to or No.

02:22:18 No. Um and did they influence the decisions concerning your campaign for justice? No.

02:22:24 No. Sir, it may be an appropriate time to break there because I'm going to move on now to the UCOs after the break. Of course. Um, take as long as you need to have a break and we'll resume when you're ready.

02:22:35 you're ready. Okay. Thank you. All right.

02:47:42 Mr. Hemingway, before you resume, uh there is something I want to say about the order made earlier. Uh the order made earlier uh prohibiting reporting or disclosure of anything occurring in the hearing between 10:58 and 11 uh was

02:47:57 hearing between 10:58 and 11 uh was intended to cover uh the identity of an individual named during that time provided that that individual is not named in anything reported. Uh then uh

02:48:09 named in anything reported. Uh then uh anyone may freely report what occurred between those times.

02:48:30 Thank you, sir. Baroness Lawrence, can I um ask you some questions about events between 1994 and 1998? um for about 4 years. You say in your

02:48:43 um for about 4 years. You say in your statement that your energy was consumed with instructing barristers to review the investigation files and mount a private prosecution, which was the first private prosecution for a racially motivated attack in England. And for

02:48:57 motivated attack in England. And for that, you had to secure further forensic evidence. Is that right? Yes.

02:48:58 Yes. Um, on the second anniversary of Steven's death, on the 22nd of April, 1995, a judge issued uh summones and warrants to arrest the named suspects.

02:49:10 warrants to arrest the named suspects. And throughout this time, you were still working part-time as a domestic violence

02:49:21 working part-time as a domestic violence advisor and later a financial adviser up to up until about 2001. Yes.

02:49:24 Yes. And that was whilst raising a family as well.

02:49:27 well. Um, April 1996 is when the trial began

02:49:39 Um, April 1996 is when the trial began at the Old Bailey and uh you say in your witness statement that it may have been doomed from the start. Do you remember why you say that? I think um in the first part I felt that we stood a chance of getting a conviction.

02:49:50 conviction. um I knew we didn't have um a single evidence of such well with a combination of what we had. I felt that we stood a chance of getting conviction

02:50:01 chance of getting conviction but it came apparent I think probably from the first day that we weren't going to get anywhere. um the judge that was appointed to oversee

02:50:12 appointed to oversee um the private prosecution um I just felt that he was not say planted but he was selected I

02:50:33 not say planted but he was selected I would say and um the jurors didn't hear any much from the witnesses they spent nearly two weeks on legal arguments and So towards the end of those legal arguments, you realize that he wasn't going to um

02:50:50 he wasn't going to um let the case continue. But then he could have say there was no case and adjourned, but he decided to instruct the juror without them really hearing anything to bring a not-uilty verdict.

02:51:02 anything to bring a not-uilty verdict. Meaning that there's nothing that we can do cuz the law is at the time. once you've been um not guilty, they they could never be charged again.

02:51:16 could never be charged again. And that's how it stood at the time. And and to be fair, I think that decision by the judge was not criticized in the McFersonen report. That's right, isn't it?

02:51:23 it? So I understand, but he should have been. the f the following day um when

02:51:34 been. the f the following day um when the not guilty verdict was returned um the Daily Mail published and now our famous uh front cover of the five suspects and the name or the word murderers across the top. Do you recall that?

02:51:46 that? Yes, but I think that happened at the end of the inquest more so than at the private prosecution. You're right. You're absolutely right. Sorry, I I'd missed out the the inquest back in February 1997. And and that um as we said before, the

02:52:05 And and that um as we said before, the jury in the inquest returned the verdict that Steven was unlawfully killed uh in a completely unprovoked attack by five racist youths. And the day after that uh verdict uh conclusion was returned, then we had the the front page of the Daily

02:52:18 we had the the front page of the Daily the Daily Mail. Um, what effect did that have on the campaign itself? Um, I presume it sort of highlighted what we were saying all along about these individuals because I think up

02:52:32 these individuals because I think up until when we had a committal hearing, I had no idea what the individuals looks like. Um, so it's a committ that we that we first had sight of them and the public would not really have known anything about them, what they look

02:52:44 anything about them, what they look like. So by having that done, it just shows for me so the public could see who these individuals were or are cuz before that you know they were

02:52:55 cuz before that you know they were allowed to carry on with their lives that nobody know anything. Whereas it for me it has never been like that for me. I'm always out in the public and

02:53:07 me. I'm always out in the public and everybody knows who I am. And during those time I felt um more than threatened. I didn't feel comfortable to be out in the public because especially when I didn't know what they look like.

02:53:18 when I didn't know what they look like. I could be standing next to somebody and anything could have happened to me and I would not have known who they were. So

02:53:29 would not have known who they were. So having their faces out, it just made a difference.

02:53:39 Now that same month, February 1997, you met with Jack Straw whilst he was shadow home secretary. Is that right? Yes. And you were again asking for uh uh uh an inquiry. Yes.

02:53:53 Yes. A month later um following. Sorry. Uh then then we had the um

02:54:05 general election. The general election. And following that Yeah. Thank you. Um following that then he was at home secretary and you met him again um and he was very supportive of

02:54:22 again um and he was very supportive of the idea of a of a public inquiry wasn't he? I think at first um who whoever his adviserss were he wanted to do um something sim similar

02:54:34 he wanted to do um something sim similar to what um Scarman did um looking within the community and I felt that would never give me the answers to what happened around Steven's murder. So I managed to persuade him that a public

02:54:48 managed to persuade him that a public inquiry was the best way to go forward. And that's after that that's when he that's when he announced the public inquiry.

02:54:52 inquiry. And and that was in July 1997. Yes.

02:54:58 Yes. Um and the public inquiry was set up to identify lessons for police in dealing with racially motivated crimes and it was chaired by Sir William McFersonen. Yes.

02:55:08 Yes. Just before we move on to the inquiry itself in December 1997, the Kent Police Probe into the uh police conduct around Steven's investigation

02:55:19 conduct around Steven's investigation published the report. Um it found that there were weaknesses and missions and lost opportunities in the murder investigation, but they didn't find racism, did they?

02:55:33 racism, did they? Um I can't remember that but I think um from what the Kent police did that was the first time that I knew that within 24 hours somebody had walked into the police station and to give names but

02:55:50 police station and to give names but when when that person walked in he was turned away by whoever um I can't remember exactly um the officer's name but before bad. So all along we did not know that within 24

02:56:02 all along we did not know that within 24 hours of after Steven's murder that they could have arrested individuals and that was quite a shocking thing to know.

02:56:13 was quite a shocking thing to know. Is it right then that over the course of the years that followed Steven's death, more and more information comes out with each different mode of investigation? Yes.

02:56:26 Yes. Um even with the inquest into his death, you found out things about the first aid uh issue, didn't you? Yes. Um and and I think that that was that Steven wasn't really given first aid at the scene.

02:56:40 the scene. They did not. Um I mean I remember saying something like they didn't want to be um for a black man's blood. I remember saying something like that. But it just goes to show that you have somebody was injured on the ground and they just stood around without checking

02:56:56 they just stood around without checking to see whether if there's anything that they can do. And I understand a young girl who lived I think just opposite or probably on the same side of the road came down and offered to do first aid

02:57:10 came down and offered to do first aid because she was qualified first aerow to do anything. Moving to 1998 and the Steven Lawrence

02:57:23 Moving to 1998 and the Steven Lawrence inquiring. Um, by 1998, I think you say in your witness statement at paragraph 163 that the the focus of the Steven Lawrence campaign had shifted slightly so that it was now relaunched with the focus mainly around the inquiry and

02:57:34 focus mainly around the inquiry and links to other justice groups to make submissions in the second phase. Is that right?

02:57:46 right? Um, that's true. because I think it that wasn't something that we that I would have um suggested. I think it's something that with all with the campaigning group they felt that they needed to make submissions around um partly because um over the

02:57:58 around um partly because um over the years of how they've been treated, how people within the black community have been treated. So it's it's for the judge to hear all that. I think that's that's

02:58:10 to hear all that. I think that's that's what they wanted to make sure the judge heard everything that there been going on. So the first phase of the first inquiry was looking at Steven's death and investigation. Yes.

02:58:24 Yes. Um and the second phase was about wider issues of racism in the community and other justice groups. Yes.

02:58:28 Um you set out the main aims of the Steven Lawrence campaign in your statement and if I just run through those very quickly. Holding regular press

02:58:41 quickly. Holding regular press conferences at crucial and key moments of the inquiry. Mobilizing supporters and people to attend. Publishing a booklet informing the public of the campaign's views of the inquiry and what it expects.

02:58:57 the inquiry and what it expects. Linking with other families or campaigns or organizations to make submissions during the second phase. at countering attacks on our family or legal team from sources within the inquiry or outside.

02:59:09 inquiry or outside. Is it right that this was all very organized, lawful, and crucially public campaigning? Definitely. So,

02:59:21 Definitely. So, um, is there anything that you could think of that could possibly be of interest to the police that wasn't either public or for very good reason private, such as your personal life and your your your your legal affairs.

02:59:37 your your your your legal affairs. Um, explain a little bit more what you're trying to ask. It it appears from what you say in your statement that the campaign was very public. It was about informing people, informing the public, informing

02:59:51 informing the public, informing supporters about what was going on, what you were wanting as part of the uh Steven Lawrence campaign and what you intended to do about that. Was there anything

03:00:07 Was there anything kept secret that you were hiding from uh the public? anything that needed an undercover officer to try and find intelligence on that wouldn't otherwise be very very open for everybody to read about or hear about at public meetings? Not that I'm aware of. No.

03:00:26 Would it be fair to say that the Steven Lawrence campaign was relatively small and limited to the the people close to you and your family? Um whereas the Lawrence family support group that we

03:00:37 Lawrence family support group that we could we we we see mentioned in some of

03:00:48 could we we we see mentioned in some of the reports was a wider support group um a wider collaboration between different organizations. Um you could say that I think because um we're the campaign that I wanted to run

03:01:04 we're the campaign that I wanted to run was specifically focused on Steven. Um I want you to understand what's happened around why it had taken us so long to get any justice. Understanding um what motivation the police would have had for not in investigating Steven's murder as they should and for me is

03:01:18 murder as they should and for me is always to make sure is seeking justice for him.

03:01:26 for him. Did you have much involvement personally with the Lawrence family support group? Not much. No.

03:01:34 Um, now it's evident around this time in 1998 that we start to get more significant reporting from the SDS UCOs on the Steven Lawrence campaign, the Lawrence family support group and the

03:01:52 Lawrence family support group and the Steven Lawrence inquiry itself and even some personal uh reporting on you and your then husband Neville Lawrence. uh uh whether as direct reporting or as peripheral reporting to those campaign

03:02:03 peripheral reporting to those campaign groups that the undercover officers were deployed into. Um predominantly I think you're aware

03:02:15 Um predominantly I think you're aware that the reports come from HN81 who was known in his cover identity as David Hagen.

03:02:16 Hagen. Now

03:02:20 Now did you know him at the time? No.

03:02:22 No. You've seen a photograph of him as he looked back in those days in his cover identity. Did you recognize him in that photograph at all? No.

03:02:36 Um, HN43, Peter Francis, otherwise known as Peter Daly or Peter Johnson or otherwise known as Peter Black, is somebody that

03:02:49 known as Peter Black, is somebody that also reported uh to some extent. Um, do you did you recognize him? Do do you have an image of what he looked like back in the day? No.

03:02:55 No. No.

03:02:56 No. Did you know him at the time? No. Did know didn't know of him? No. Um and there is some very peripheral reporting about uh the Steven Lawrence inquiry and the campaign by some of the

03:03:11 inquiry and the campaign by some of the other officers particularly in the left wing groups. Um one of those is HN15 Mark Jenner who was known in his cover identity as Mark Cassidy. Does that ring any bells? No. No.

03:03:32 I'd like to go to some examples of the reports that were written involving the Steven Lawrence campaign and the inquiry. There are about 13 examples in all. So what I'll ask is for the uh the extracts of those reports to be brought up onto the screen just so that we can

03:03:46 up onto the screen just so that we can have a sense of what was being reported and I may ask you some questions in relation to specific ones but then come on to some more general answers after we've had a look through those and we should be able to get through those at least majority of them before lunch.

03:04:00 least majority of them before lunch. Okay. Um, can I have up on screen first then please MPS794? It's behind tab B12. Sir,

03:04:18 this is an int, excuse me, this is an intelligence report by touchy subject. That was the code name for Mark Jenner. And he was deployed into the

03:04:29 And he was deployed into the Anti-Fascist Action, the AFA. The date of the report is the 23rd of January 1998.

03:04:39 Um,

03:04:48 this report, it's not specifically on the campaign, but it's just to give a a a sense of the type of reporting that was uh written up by an SDS undercover officer in relation to the campaign

03:05:00 officer in relation to the campaign groups and specifically black justice campaign groups. So we can see that there's reference to um

03:05:12 we'll start in a further attempt to broaden its remit AFA have decided to involve itself in providing support to victims of racial attacks.

03:05:28 The architect of this idea is Harold who seeks AFA's role in a similar light to that of red action i.e. to broaden its base and then influence the naive from within.

03:05:43 This reference to influencing the naive from within. You've made it very clear in your evidence that you weren't naive. You weren't going to be influenced. you knew exactly what your campaign was

03:05:56 knew exactly what your campaign was about and you had the the capacity and the wherewithal to make sure that you were able to uh uh uh progress that without the influence of outside groups. Um

03:06:09 and and so what do you say about the the reference to naive people within the campaign groups that were going to be influenced by the AFA on the on the front on the

03:06:23 front on the on the uh uh face of this document. I think people can have their own opinion about certain things, but I certainly was not naive u naive about certain things and how I expected how

03:06:34 certain things and how I expected how Steven investigation should have gone. Yes, I was naive about that. But for these other campaign groups, no, because they weren't I would say they were

03:06:45 they weren't I would say they were probably on the outside. They weren't as within the family because there's um like um Kakara I've heard about them. I've never had anything to do with them before. And and yes, I know they were

03:06:56 before. And and yes, I know they were there to support the family like these other groups. So, you know, that's their opinion about who's naive and who's not naive.

03:07:05 naive. Um the third paragraph says that AFA have a history of attempting to involve themselves in this sensitive area. In the early 90s, they joined an uneasy

03:07:17 the early 90s, they joined an uneasy relationship with privacy at, you've just mentioned them, Gakara, the Greenwich Action Committee against racial attacks and also had close connections with the family of Steven Lawrence

03:07:26 Lawrence before losing out in the left-wing scramble for recruitment amongst victim families. Did you ever have the sense that you were another family to be

03:07:45 that you were another family to be targeted and recruited into certain uh act no act uh uh uh activist groups? No.

03:07:51 It goes on to say that Harold is of the opinion that the leftwing has abandoned the theme of racial attacks. This theme the sense that racial attacks was a theme to be adopted. What do you say about that?

03:08:10 about that? I don't really know anything about that. I mean, the racial um is not something that's new. That's been around for decades.

03:08:14 decades. Um and I was never involved in any groups

03:08:18 groups whatsoever to do with anything like this.

03:08:20 this. It is planned that Harold and Privacy will meet up with the Lawrence family and other families who have suffered racial abuse with the idea of recruiting them into a broad liberal umbrella

03:08:32 them into a broad liberal umbrella organization with the legitimate aim of promoting public awareness of racial attacks and the scheme will be endorsed by an intellectual. Two names were floated uh Jon Snow and

03:08:55 Two names were floated uh Jon Snow and another. The intellectual angle is being delegated to privacy of Southampton Red Action who is studying for a doctorate at Southampton University. This group will be open to both individuals and organizations in the hope that it will give the impression of liberal respectability.

03:09:07 respectability. Did you feel that your campaign needed a front of respectability? No.

03:09:12 No. Um it's like who's Harold anyway? I have no idea who that is. you know, okay, I know Jon Snow, who's a he's a journalist, but no.

03:09:27 he's a journalist, but no. Um, we can add that to your cipher list later and let you know the name under there.

03:09:30 there. Um,

03:09:38 AFA will become part of it, but will not attempt to lead from the front. Harold is therefore hoping that this respectable exterior will provide AFA with cover to operate against racist attacks in Tmsme and Southeast London.

03:09:53 attacks in Tmsme and Southeast London. The source comment at the bottom is that although an elaborate scheme, Harold is working hard to achieve this new operating base and it is consistent with AFA IW.CA aims of a drive against racist attacks and this initiative will be

03:10:04 attacks and this initiative will be launched around Easter time. So this sense that there were organizations that were trying to prevent race racist

03:10:16 were trying to prevent race racist attacks but were reported in a way as if it was a a bit of a a theme, an initiative, just something to jump on a bandwagon. What do you say about that?

03:10:27 bandwagon. What do you say about that? Probably it could be, but it's not something that I was aware of.

03:10:41 Uh moving on then to a report of the 19th of May 98. MPS 1089 behind tab B13 please

03:10:51 1089.

03:11:00 This is a report from Windmill Tilter which is HN81 David Hagen concerning the movement for justicees

03:11:11 concerning the movement for justicees public meeting on the 14th of May 1998. Paragraph five please

03:11:22 says that MFJ intends to involve themselves in the Steven Lawrence inquiry. The intention initially is to get a few individual members to monitor and assess the

03:11:34 members to monitor and assess the situation. From this, they hope to build relations with the family of Steven Lawrence and other protest groups. In addition, it's hoped that an interview can be arranged with members of the family for publication in the next MFJ magazine. And furthermore, if it can be

03:11:51 magazine. And furthermore, if it can be ascertained when the five suspects will be attending to give evidence, then a demonstration will be called in cooperation with any other groups in order to protest against these people.

03:12:03 order to protest against these people. MFJ intend building momentum towards the end of the inquiry, demanding that the five men are named and charged.

03:12:15 Were you approached or can you remember being approached by the MFJ for uh interviews or to build relations with their group? No.

03:12:29 Can we display please MPS 0000113?

03:12:36 It's behind tab B15. A report of the 2nd of June 1998 again by David Hagen.

03:12:47 of June 1998 again by David Hagen. Movement for justice uh report. The MFJ paragraph one please. The MFJ have

03:12:55 paragraph one please. The MFJ have decided to get more actively involved in the Steven Lawrence campaign. Members have been attending for the past two weeks and have become outraged by evidence they have heard from public witnesses from police witnesses.

03:13:06 uh MFJ do not believe that the family intend to promote the issues as evidenced by the fact that two that the two protests held so far on the 19th of May 98 and the 26th of the 5th 98 have

03:13:19 May 98 and the 26th of the 5th 98 have been rallies for the purpose of pooling information. So this is reporting specifically on the Steven Lawrence campaign and what the family intends to do or not to do in relation to the

03:13:33 do or not to do in relation to the issues that have been raised within the inquiry itself. Paragraph two please.

03:13:47 We can see here that um the date on which the five mur murderers would be attending the inquiry is named and the the MFJ intend to mobilize as many people as possible on the 2nd of

03:14:04 many people as possible on the 2nd of June 98 uh rally an attempt to take it over and turn it into a proper demonstration with the intention of attracting media coverage for the week commencing the 8th of May 199. 1998

03:14:16 of May 199. 1998 and finally on this document paragraph three

03:14:22 MFJ feel that it's important to work with the family on this matter but will not deflect sorry will not be deflected from progressing the campaign because the family object can you recall a time when you were

03:14:39 can you recall a time when you were being asked to become more involved at demonstrations and such life. No.

03:14:50 No. Uh during the course of the inquiry, was it your position that you were sticking to your objectives, your agenda, and you weren't going to be swayed by these other groups? Yes.

03:15:07 Did you as a family have a sense that there was was going to be any kind of disorder when the five suspects turned up to give their evidence at the inquiry?

03:15:15 inquiry? No. No.

03:15:20 Display, please. MS0721

03:15:25 970. It's behind tab B17.

03:15:41 This is a report of the 3rd of the 6th 98. It's got some written comments on

03:15:54 98. It's got some written comments on here um which are quotes from um I think it's the Ellison uh uh investigation,

03:16:01 but it reads following a meeting of the Steven Lawrence campaign last night on the 2nd of June 98, the family has agreed to allow demonstrations outside the court where the inquiry is taking place. There may be a small demonstration next Tuesday on the 9th of June 98, but the main protest will be

03:16:18 June 98, but the main protest will be focused on the week beginning June 15th when the five people accused of the murder attend the hearing. A planning meeting is due to take place on the 4th of June 98 and will be

03:16:30 on the 4th of June 98 and will be attended by members of MFJ who now feel they can influence the emphasis of the campaign.

03:16:34 Thank you. If you collapse that down

03:16:50 the note here, which is a note of what 81 said, um it was MFJ's intention to open openly or covertly influence the campaign.

03:17:08 It was a high-profile opportunity to attack the state. any campaign was seen as an opportunity to take such action. Did you have the sense that your campaign was being used as a bit of a springboard for other campaigning agendas?

03:17:19 agendas? I think at the time I wasn't so much aware of um the MF the MFJ and their intention because we were always just focus on one one thing

03:17:35 were always just focus on one one thing and is later on reading when I was asked questions just um around the inquiry that I realized um what their intentions were and what they were planning. So it was not we did not have thing meeting to

03:17:48 was not we did not have thing meeting to say this is what we would like you to do we would like to demonstrate. No we did not have that and I think from this you can see that they were using Steven's name for their own gain more so than

03:17:59 name for their own gain more so than trying to support the family what we

03:18:10 trying to support the family what we wanted it to me just look as if it's something that they wanted. Can we display please MPS 00001120

03:18:16 behind tab B18. It's a report from the 5th of June 98

03:18:32 and it's to do with a rally at this at the Steven Lawrence inquiry on Tuesday the 2nd of June. Um, at the rally, the spokesman for the family campaign, Shesh, and that's Shesh Grover, who we heard from yesterday,

03:18:44 Grover, who we heard from yesterday, stated that he had been informed that the five suspects would be appearing during the week of the 15th of June. He stated that a demonstration would be planned for that time.

03:18:57 However, those attending the rally, led and encouraged by MFJ, decrieded the lack of action so far and called for a demonstration sooner. The result was that the family campaign representative agreed to hold a planning meeting on

03:19:11 agreed to hold a planning meeting on Thursday the 5th of June and invited those present to attend.

03:19:15 And the source comment please.

03:19:30 at the bottom. The MFJ were pleased with their success at the Tuesday rally and are still intent on working with the Lawrence family campaign rather than attempting to take it over.

03:19:50 Um, can we display please MPS 00001129 behind tab B19? It's report of the 12th of June 98. This is now the Lawrence family support group.

03:20:08 it says at the very beginning that the Lawrence family support group held their weekly meeting in a disused shop in Elephant and Castle Shopping Center. Did you used to attend those meetings? I probably did, but I just can't remember.

03:20:23 remember. Approximately 40 people attended and the meeting was discussed. The meeting discussed what to do when the five accused white youths attend the inquiry. The support group acting on behalf of

03:20:35 The support group acting on behalf of the family are in close liaison with the inquiry administration itself. Were you aware that the sport the support group was in liaison with the inquiry administration that they were

03:20:46 inquiry administration that they were informing them as to what was happening about numbers attending for instance or what demonstrations or protests were going to be at the building where the inquiry was being held? No, I don't remember about that.

03:21:06 Paragraph three, please.

03:21:15 It does say that the mood amongst those attending the meeting was hostile and rowdy, especially amongst a number of the women. Several members of the audience stated that they would not allow themselves to be searched and that they would not accept any police

03:21:29 they would not accept any police presence whatsoever. Grover was asked to report these facts back to the inquiry. There's a sense here, isn't there, that people are wanting their frustrations and their intent to be known by the

03:21:45 and their intent to be known by the inquiry administration staff. This isn't something that this isn't a planning meeting that has been done in secret uh uh

03:21:55 uh in order to surprise the administration uh or surprise the people who are attending the inquiry. Would you accept that?

03:22:01 that? Yeah, I would. And I think cuz people were very angry um around Steven's murder and other murders that's taking place. So um I can understand but and

03:22:14 place. So um I can understand but and the fact that they were doing the right thing by um letting the inquiry know about it. So they they were being respectful to the inquiry. I would have thought.

03:22:29 Paragraph four, please.

03:22:37 The plan for the day is to hold a demonstration outside at the commencement and keep this continually manned as well as keeping a full presence inside the inquiry.

03:22:51 presence inside the inquiry. Um the demonstration outside will make sufficient noise to be heard inside. Protesters will move between the demonstration and the inquiry room to ensure that everyone sees some of the inquiry. When each of the five accused

03:23:02 inquiry. When each of the five accused enters the inquiry, the crowd will turn their backs on them and impose a twominut silence in memory of Steven.

03:23:13 Um so this is what was planned in terms of a demonstration. And it wasn't a violent uh disorderly demonstration at least by this stage. Is that is that right?

03:23:21 right? Yeah. Um peaceful. Yeah. And and were you a part of that plan to have a two-minute silence in memory of

03:23:32 have a two-minute silence in memory of Steven when the five accused entered the inquiry?

03:23:33 inquiry? I probably were. I just can't remember.

03:23:47 The last paragraph, please. says that given the porcity of policing within the room, disorder should be expected and a possible way around this would be the removal of all police officers and a large increase in the

03:23:58 officers and a large increase in the number of security guards whom the group deem acceptable. Was that a sense that you had that police officers not welcome, security guards welcome? I think what they probably was trying to do is to make

03:24:16 probably was trying to do is to make sure that they had enough members of the public to be the inquiry room and um it was limited to members of the public being there and and I think that's where the disagreement and the stuff that fall out from that because they weren't

03:24:33 out from that because they weren't allowed to be in in the room when the fire arrived. And I think there's there's some reference in this report at least to a monitor being set up in a room in the shopping center nearby. Is that right? Yes.

03:24:50 Yes. So to what extent were you expecting others to cause disorder when the five suspects attended? No, I was not expecting that. No. Can we display please MPS 00001134 behind tab B19?

03:25:17 This is a report of the 12th of June 98 about an SWP public meeting of the Lawrence uh in relation to the Lawrence family support group. It's the North London meeting. About 200 people attended the public meeting. Uh,

03:25:31 people attended the public meeting. Uh, and it was noted here that the audience predominantly were young and black with twice as many females as males. Does

03:25:45 twice as many females as males. Does that reflect the type of people who were the surrounding support group at the inquiry?

03:25:59 inquiry? Um, I can't say because I think if this is being held in Tottenham Green Center, um, one I was I was not there. Um, and yes, I think mothers and young women would be

03:26:01 would be more demonstrating about what happened to Steven. And I think there are times that their voices are not heard. So I couldn't understand why there were more women and young people there.

03:26:20 And in terms of noting someone's race in particular, um can can you suggest why that might be important or not important?

03:26:34 Well, the race would be important because um Steven was not the only young person that was being killed or being attacked by a white user. It would have been a race would have been definitely be important

03:26:49 be important only in or in as far as that meant a lot to the people that were there supporting the campaign. Well, yes, because I think from their own experience of what's happened to them or their family or within their

03:27:00 them or their family or within their community, race would be um definitely be high on um high on the agenda.

03:27:07 Um, paragraph two, please.

03:27:18 It says that Grover was more out outspoken than on previous occasions and stressed the importance of Monday and Tuesday when the five accused would be appearing. He was particularly angry over the treatment of Steven Lawrence's mother, who had been searched that day

03:27:31 mother, who had been searched that day prior to going to the inquiry. He argued that the police's incompetence was an attempt to cover up their systematic racism and corruption and he cited a number of examples for the from the inquiry proving his point.

03:27:42 inquiry proving his point. Um it is noted further down penultimate paragraph that uh Wayman Bennett

03:27:55 took up the mood and delivered a fiery rabble rousing speech. He totally denounced the inquiry and the police. Um

03:28:03 Um this sense that there is rabel rousing speeches going on. Did you have a sense of of that and and did that affect the the way that uh the inquiry was managed

03:28:15 the way that uh the inquiry was managed or or handled as far as you were aware?

03:28:26 or or handled as far as you were aware? Um I was not aware of um Rabler's speeches um at the inquiry. I know that people was upset and angry um up since Steven's murder and how it's been conducted. So um I think the mood of people

03:28:40 of people not saying that um is justified but you can understand the reason why. What about the language that's used to describe a a a speech? Well, as I say, people were angry and

03:28:56 Well, as I say, people were angry and upset. And I think if you um if you're in a position as what we are as as a black community feels that we never been listened to, never not been respected and there are times that

03:29:18 and there are times that um you know, opportunity arise where you can speak out and you don't always have the um opportunity to do that. And so for them to be frustrated by how um things have been conducted, I can understand that. But I would never encourage anyone um to use um and that fraternity of violence or disorder. I

03:29:30 fraternity of violence or disorder. I would never allow them think that think that's the right way to go. page two of this document at the very end

03:29:43 it was the sorry the source comments not this one

03:29:49 this one the source comment so this is HN81's assessment uh says that the mood of those present was very angry and if similar numbers

03:30:00 was very angry and if similar numbers attend on Monday there is potential for severe public disorder when the five appear

03:30:02 appear had you been told as the family that there's a chance that there's going to be severe public disorder? I think your evidence was that you hadn't any sense of that at all? No.

03:30:17 No. Prior to or even on the day when the five attended at the inquiry? No.

03:30:25 Moving to to um MPS 00001134,

03:30:27 00001134, please.

03:30:30 please. Oh, sorry. That's what we've just been on. uh 00001145 behind tab B21.

03:30:41 This is a report of the 23rd of the 6th 98.

03:30:53 Um paragraph two please. The main focus of the meeting was the Steven Lawrence campaign. This is the movement for justice uh uh uh meeting again.

03:31:14 It it says in the last sentence here that MFJ have lost faith in shares and the family campaign to progress the issue and see the 28th as a golden opportunity to demonstrate the effectiveness of MFJ and assist in raising its profile.

03:31:39 um that that part can be taken down and the bit in bold highlighted. There is no specific intelligence to suggest that any of the five may become victims of a premeditated assault, but MFJ will attempt to direct their anger and

03:31:54 attempt to direct their anger and hostility towards the five both within the inquiry room and outside of the building.

03:32:04 Were there members of MFJ in the inquiry room when the five attended to give their evidence? As far as you were aware,

03:32:08 aware, I'm not aware cuz I don't really know. I didn't know them and I still don't really know them. And so if they were inside the room, I I I have no idea.

03:32:20 inside the room, I I I have no idea. Was there any hostility or anger expressed in the inquiry room when the five were given their evidence? Um I can't remember. I don't think so.

03:32:34 Um can we display please Z 00001147 behind tab B22 it's report of the 25th of the 6 98

03:32:49 so these are regular reports these are all within uh largely within June again it's another report by windmill

03:33:01 again it's another report by windmill tilter David Hagen and it's to do with the new monitoring project uh meeting regarding Steven Lawrence inquiry.

03:33:07 Uh paragraph one, it's noted again

03:33:24 um the ethnicity uh or the race of of people in the audience, mainly black and of all ages. There were approximately twice as many women as men.

03:33:33 Is that significant as far as you suggest in terms of public order issues? No, I don't I don't really understand um and I'd like to sort of point out if

03:33:48 and I'd like to sort of point out if this person um am I what um whatever his name is. I wish you get Steven's name spelled correctly and it's on everything spelled with a V and that really annoys me.

03:34:01 me. Um so if they're doing the report I mean so they would have seen Steven's name written so many times and yet he cannot get that right. Um

03:34:16 Um there's also reference to other family justice campaigns of people who have lost others in racist attacks. Um were you familiar with those other campaign groups?

03:34:31 campaign groups? Yes, but not familiar in a way that I know or or attended any of their meetings. um um it's what would would have been reported on the news that I would have had information about them

03:34:44 would have had information about them but not where I've attended any of their meetings.

03:34:49 meetings. Okay. Were you a were you able to to to support each other's campaigns or I think from afar yes um because um because of what happened to Steve I can understand

03:35:02 understand um those families and what and what they were going through. Um so in that respect yes but I've never really attended

03:35:09 attended any of their meetings. Okay.

03:35:20 any of their meetings. Okay. Thank you. Paragraph two of this report comments on the fact that Imran Khan then gave a brief account of the Lawrence case highlighting the police incompetence that had been displayed and stated that the police had only finally acted against the five five accused after Nelson Mandela got involved and

03:35:38 after Nelson Mandela got involved and met Steven's parents and apparently the five were arrested the day after this meeting. And moving on to paragraph three, there is reference to Neville Lawrence who gave a personal speech.

03:35:57 And it comments that he was disappointed by a statement issued by the leader of the police federation that day supposedly saying that the inquiry had become political and was therefore flawed and that Jack Straw should not beounded into accepting its recommendations.

03:36:10 recommendations. Um, again, it's reporting on Neville Lawrence's views on the events that were taking place as part of the inquiry.

03:36:26 Uh

03:36:34 there is a sense that well there there is evidence that when this was first investigated by Mark Ellison QC at the time um he suggested that HN81 was

03:36:48 time um he suggested that HN81 was reporting on the internal machinations of the Steven Lawrence campaign. Is this the sort of thing that you would say, well, that's the internal workings of our campaign, our people, my

03:37:03 of our campaign, our people, my solicitor, my husband, and their views on what was happening in terms of the inquiry.

03:37:12 inquiry. Do you think that that uh uh uh is is what was meant by the internal machinations of the campaign? I think if you was to look at how and how long it's taken us to get even to the inquiry

03:37:27 to the inquiry um the frustration of us around that and the fact that we've had to question um how the police was conducting their

03:37:38 um how the police was conducting their inquiry and yes um there are times that um with Mr. Khan, we would um ask and instruct him to write to um whether whether the commissioner whoever to question why the um in why the investigation into Steven's murder has

03:37:50 investigation into Steven's murder has not produced any result. So yes, I can understand all of that and yes, we would be always questioning. And as for the police, they're always trying to cover

03:38:03 police, they're always trying to cover their backs all the time. You know, they were, you know, they have a job to do and in my opinion, had they done their job as they should, you know, we wouldn't be sitting here today.

03:38:17 Baroness Lawrence, I'm about to move on to the actual day when the five attended to the inquiry and it may be that now is an appropriate time to break for lunch. I would have thought so. Um, we'll resume at quart.