MPS counsel Peter Skelton QC delivers opening statement for Tranche 1 Phase 2 covering 1973-1982. Addresses historical context (IRA bombings, industrial unrest, far-right clashes), justification for targeting political groups, and emerging issues including Blair Peach reporting, blacklisting allegations, personal data collection, and lack of training standards.
00:08:14 good afternoon everyone and welcome to the afternoon session of the day one opening statements at the undercover policing inquiry i will now hand over to our chairman sir john mitting
00:08:25 john mitting to continue proceedings chairman thank you
00:08:26 you mr skill thank you sir the mps's first opening statement last year
00:08:38 year looked broadly at what went wrong in respect of undercover policing particularly in the sds and explain the significant changes that have been made since the events under investigation by your inquiry and emphasize the
00:08:52 by your inquiry and emphasize the continuing value of undercover policing this opening statement is narrower in focus and shorter it addresses only the evidential phase ahead the work of the sds undercover officers in the period 1973-1982
00:09:05 1973-1982 as before the mps will not try to preempt or predict what that evidence will in due course show
00:09:14 show it is possible however to draw on some of the issues which arise in this tranche of evidence particularly where they occur for the first time and where possible make preliminary observations about them in doing so sir
00:09:27 about them in doing so sir the mps reiterates the four simple but important
00:09:29 important thematic points that were made in the first opening statement that first the work of the sds was intelligence gathering so care must be taken when trying to
00:09:40 so care must be taken when trying to assess the value of that intelligence work
00:09:47 work retrospectively second the actions of the undercover officers should be assessed by reference to their contemporaneous historical social and regulatory context not by the standards of today third the evidence for this period isn't comprehensive
00:10:02 comprehensive a number of witnesses note that not all of their reports appear to have been provided
00:10:05 provided and in particular records or reports relating to public order policing may not have been recovered by your inquiry
00:10:12 inquiry and in addition of course witnesses are no longer available and memories of events 40 or 50 years ago may have faded lastly the sds gathered intelligence to assist both
00:10:24 assist both mainstream policing particularly public order policing and the security service referred to in the documents as box 500 in its counter subversion work
00:10:33 work so i'm going to address you on the following three issues before making some brief concluding remarks one the sds 1973 to 1982
00:10:50 one the sds 1973 to 1982 to targeting and justification and three issues emerging 1973-1982
00:11:04 1973-1982 so the first of these the sds 1973-1982 as was said in the mps's first opening statement an understanding of the historical context is absolutely essential
00:11:07 essential the work of the sds didn't occur in a vacuum
00:11:10 vacuum it occurred in response to what were considered by the government and the public to be two important problems of the day the need to maintain public order and
00:11:21 the need to maintain public order and the need to preserve the security of the state
00:11:27 state in a decade of protests demonstrations industrial unrest and political polarization the period 1973-1982 saw a range of demands
00:11:39 demands on the mps and on policing in general the early 70s saw a campaign of firebombing by the angry brigade against public figures businesses and public buildings and on the 30th of january 1972 26
00:11:51 and on the 30th of january 1972 26 civilians were shot by british british soldiers in northern ireland during an anti-internment march in bogside resulting in the deaths of 13 people
00:12:03 people known as bloody sunday in 1974 the ira launched a sustained campaign of bombings in england and on uk targets abroad which lasted several years and included the m62 coach bombing
00:12:10 bombing the guildford and birmingham pub bombings the hyde park and regents park bombings
00:12:22 bombings as well as the murders of arie neve mp and lord mountbatten this period also saw substantial industrial unrest including a seven-week strike by the miners in january 1972
00:12:34 miners in january 1972 and a strike by dockers in august 1972 both of which resulted in the prime minister of the time edward heath calling a state of emergency in may 1973 approximately 1.6 million workers joined a one-day strike causing disruption to railways car
00:12:48 causing disruption to railways car manufacturing newspaper production mining and docks in january 1974 the conservative government introduced a three-day week to conserve electricity during another period of industrial action by the miners
00:13:02 action by the miners the dismissal of dev shibuya and others from the granic film processing laboratory in williston north london caused a strike which was to last for nearly two years
00:13:13 nearly two years in september 1978 industrial action started at four setting off a train of events leading to what is known as the winter of discontent widespread strikes by public and private sector workers
00:13:24 sector workers lorry drivers went on strike in january 1979 leading to shortages of heating oil and fresh food and later in the same month grave diggers and waste collectors joined that strike
00:13:36 joined that strike the national front and left-wing groups clashed during violent demonstrations including the red lion square disorders in june 1974 during which kevin gately died
00:13:47 died the battle of wood green in april 1977 the battle of lewisham in august 1977 and the southall demonstration in april 1979 at which blair peach sustained injuries from which he later died
00:14:00 injuries from which he later died the period towards the end of phase two also saw an increase in racial tensions between the police and local african caribbean communities leading to riots in brixton manchester birmingham and other inner cities
00:14:12 birmingham and other inner cities the scarman report which followed led to the enactment of the police and criminal evidence act 1984 and the period also saw the start of activity on the part of the animal liberation movement
00:14:25 the animal liberation movement and the establishment of the peace camp at greenham common so it is vitally important that the inquiry has a proper understanding of these events and that they are articulated and explained in public
00:14:36 explained in public during its hearings otherwise there is a real danger that it will reach judgments that are unfair or misplaced either because they are based on incomplete or subjective accounts
00:14:50 incomplete or subjective accounts or because they are based on information which has been gleaned from outside the inquiry process and so is not known to its participants and has not as necessarily been tested by them
00:15:00 by them such an understanding we submit must be based
00:15:03 based on evidence and not submissions submissions may be informative but when made by participants they are vulnerable to accusations of selectivity and bias
00:15:10 and bias and even when made by councils of inquiry as you heard earlier from mr barr
00:15:17 barr they still do not have the status of authoritative evidence and cannot by definition be elaborated or challenged what the mps respectfully submits is needed sir
00:15:31 needed sir is evidence from an expert historian which provides the inquiry and its participants with a clear comprehensive and independent overview of the various periods under scrutiny
00:15:42 of the various periods under scrutiny such evidence would be in the form of one or more reports or witness statements which would be supplemented by oral evidence coupled with the introduction of contemporaneous documents at the start of the hearings for each trance or phase
00:15:56 trance or phase to avoid controversy or impropriety the evidence would need to be scrupulously neutral and factual without expressions of opinion on any matters that are historically
00:16:08 matters that are historically contentious or on issues that are for the inquiry alone to determine as the designator lawyer designated lawyer officer group note
00:16:18 note in their written submissions for this hearing this type of evidence was given by eminent historians professor robert service and professor thomas hennessey in the litvinenko
00:16:30 litvinenko inquiry and in the birmingham bombings inquest
00:16:31 inquest and in both cases it was a highly effective and proportionate means of summarizing the complex historical period in which the events in question occurred
00:16:45 occurred it would the mps submits view of even greater value to this inquiry which is looking at an unprecedentedly long period of uk history
00:16:59 so the second issue i wish to address you on is targeting and justification between 1973 and 1982 the sds had between 9 and 12 active undercover officers at any one time they were targeted as mr barr said
00:17:11 they were targeted as mr barr said earlier at a range of organizations which included trotskyists maoists stroke marxist leninists anarchists anti-fascists anti-nuclear and irish nationalist
00:17:23 nationalist supportive groups sds funding continued to be provided by the home office which received information about the work of the unit in annual letters seeking permission to continue its work and on
00:17:35 and on each occasion agreed to its continuation the mps notes that a number of the non-state core participants raised concerns
00:17:41 concerns about having been targeted or reported on in the course of undercover policing in this period
00:17:52 in this period this is a complex issue which will be considered throughout the inquiry's tranches including the manager's evidence
00:17:55 evidence and in tranche 6 management and oversight
00:17:56 oversight it will only be appropriate to form a view of justification once the fullest evidential picture has developed and when doing so to bear in mind that
00:18:07 and when doing so to bear in mind that relevant evidence from this time may no longer be available particularly paper records as i have said relating to public order policing in furtherance of which the sds did much of its work
00:18:21 of its work the assessment of the justification for the targeting in this period will include but not be limited to consideration of a the history or stated aims of a movement or individuals within it
00:18:32 it open or concealed connections between groups
00:18:33 groups or organizations the potential for groups to pose issues for law and order including
00:18:40 including where the deployment demonstrates that this is not in fact the case the the need to embed a false persona before moving into more security conscious organizations
00:18:52 conscious organizations known as legend building and finally wider law and order concerns and pressures
00:18:52 pressures and responding to the requests for information from the security service or others
00:19:02 in addition to the information set out in the annual reports there is evidence of mps
00:19:06 of mps special branch critically evaluating the ongoing need for sds intelligence in 1976 in recognition that large-scale public demonstrations had at that stage albeit with noted exceptions dwindled as compared with the night the late 1960s
00:19:21 compared with the night the late 1960s special branch internally reviewed the squad by setting up a study group to consider whether there was continuing value in its work one specific term of reference for the study group was to consider and i quote what
00:19:34 was to consider and i quote what proportion of the overall intelligence gathered
00:19:39 gathered is of primary benefit towards assisting uniform police to control public meetings
00:19:40 meetings and demonstrations and that which is of interest mainly to the security service concluding that the squad should remain in operation the study group emphasized
00:19:56 in operation the study group emphasized the importance for public order policing of negative intelligence for example that an event was not going to take place
00:20:01 place even though in such a case and again i quote the only positive result of the undercover officer's attendance is seen in the subsequent report of individuals attending etc which is of interest to box 500 the security service they concluded suffice it to say that
00:20:16 they concluded suffice it to say that the contribution made by the sds to the national interest of the security service is a very considerable one a point
00:20:22 point which is fully acknowledged [Music]
00:20:26 [Music] this conclusion sir is borne out by other contemporaneous paperwork contact with the security service was frequent and it was productive detailed requests for them for
00:20:41 detailed requests for them for information from the sds about policies identities and other information about the membership of organizations of interest
00:20:44 interest is common it occurred both in general terms high-level meetings and in the form of briefing detailed briefings or letters and this can be seen both in the evidence of the security service
00:20:58 evidence of the security service and also on the face of some sts reports indeed the sds appears to have viewed the agency as a customer for its intelligence there are indicators that although special branch's focus was on law and order whilst the security services was on counter subversion
00:21:12 on counter subversion the latter by the security service was able to exercise some influence over the placement of undercover police officers
00:21:22 so i now turn finally to issues emerging in the period 1973 to 1982 and first the use of the identities of deceased children as indicated in the mps's opening statements in october
00:21:36 statements in october last year this period saw the first use by
00:21:36 by sds undercover officers of the identities of deceased children the first use of a real person's identity appears to be hm298 in summer 1971 although there is no
00:21:50 in summer 1971 although there is no evidence in this case that it was of a deceased
00:21:54 deceased child hn 298 says he was not instructed to go to the general records office he went because he thought it would be a good place to find a real identity
00:22:07 after this time other officers recall going to find themselves an identity at the general records office and some recall being instructed to do so
00:22:13 so in the months and years thereafter the use by the undercover officers of the name and dates of birth of real individuals came to be standard practice the first few sds deployments in 1968
00:22:27 the first few sds deployments in 1968 were short some lasting only a number of weeks
00:22:30 weeks many of the remaining first recruits and the second recruits remained in position for about a year and typically these early deployment deployments lasted only about 12 to 18 months
00:22:42 months albeit with some outliers it seems that as the gradual increase in length and deployments it seems that the gradual increase in length on deployments was born of a developing judgment by reviewers at the time
00:22:52 the time that in general intelligence product improves with length of service infiltration of groups beyond the vietnam solidarity campaign such as those operating in small cliques demanded
00:23:04 demanded a more sophisticated methods of penetration than were necessary to cover large-scale demonstrations the longer deployments and the move to infiltration of more security conscious organizations also brought a need to ensure that the
00:23:21 also brought a need to ensure that the identities used by undercover officers could withstand scrutiny one of the earliest developments for example was in respect of accommodation a note in the 1969 annual report
00:23:30 report states that it was now vital that officers cover was adequate and that experience had shown that individual addresses for officers were required a move from the use of hire cars to those purchased
00:23:44 hire cars to those purchased by or for officers was in part justified by the additional support it would provide to the officer's undercover identities there was no viable means of inserting a fictitious entry into publicly available hard copy
00:23:56 into publicly available hard copy records held by the general records office
00:23:58 office thus if checks were made in that office about a fictitious name would thereby be revealed
00:24:07 revealed and it was believed therefore that using a genuine identity would be would better withstand scrutiny as operation hearn as previously concluded the practice of using a genuine identity was an imperfect solution of the time
00:24:21 was an imperfect solution of the time to address the need to backstop a cover identity
00:24:24 identity and that the unit had little choice before 1994 however the mps has and does acknowledge and apologize for the distress and offense that this practice will have caused
00:24:34 caused to the families of children whose identities were relied upon in this way some of those families are called participants in this inquiry and it will engage with you in this phase and help the inquiry
00:24:48 phase and help the inquiry in this and future phases to explore the background to this practice no doubt including testing the other the extent to which it was operationally necessary and whether and if so how
00:24:59 if so how the genuine backgrounds of the deceased children were relied upon beyond the information on the birth certificate the mps takes this opportunity to restate that this practice is not in use today
00:25:13 the second issue sir is inappropriate and or
00:25:16 and or sexual relationships by officers in their undercover identities so as the mps made clear at the outset of this inquiry sexual relationships between undercover officers and the targets of their
00:25:30 officers and the targets of their deployments or people with whom they had contact while in their undercover persona
00:25:34 persona should not have happened this is the case however short-lived those relationships may have been the sexual relationships which occurred in this phase were not justified and no attempt
00:25:45 attempt that justification will be made by the mps
00:25:53 mps which apologizes unreservedly for them so the mps recognizes that there will naturally be questions about what mps management knew or did not know about these events and that is a matter which will be
00:26:05 and that is a matter which will be considered in more detail during phase three
00:26:11 three of tranche one the 1968-1982 managers and also with managers in the later tranches
00:26:18 third undercover officers engaging in criminal activity in the criminal justice system in phase two the inquiry will for the first time hear evidence live from undercover officers engaging criminal activity and with the criminal justice system
00:26:32 and with the criminal justice system this will include the actions of hn298 michael scott who was one of several people convicted in may 1972 of obstruction of the highway and obstructing police following an incident in which vehicles
00:26:43 following an incident in which vehicles and protesters sought to block the south african rugby team bus from traveling to the airport at the end of their tour [Music]
00:26:51 [Music] in hn298's case there are some records of managerial decision making however the assessment of what inferences can properly be drawn about senior officers knowledge and authorization of such activities
00:27:03 authorization of such activities and how they were subsequently managed including within the justice system must necessarily await the managerial and back office evidence in phase 3 to be heard in the autumn as the mps stated in its first opening statement
00:27:17 stated in its first opening statement there will be occasions where the sds management did not get it right
00:27:28 fourth so-called blacklisting the mps notes the concern raised by core participant richard chesson that information gleaned from sds reports about him may have led to him being unable to secure certain employment in ensuing years so-called blacklisting
00:27:42 in ensuing years so-called blacklisting organizations used numerous methods for collating their information separately the police including special branch themselves accrued material from wider sources than undercover policing
00:27:57 undercover policing whether and to what extent mr chesson's allegation falls within the inquiry's terms of reference and should be investigated is the matter for you
00:28:10 fifth reporting about blair peach blair peach died on the 24th of april 1979
00:28:11 1979 having been struck on the head while attending an anti-nazi demonstration
00:28:22 attending an anti-nazi demonstration in south in southall the previous day investigations at the time indicated that he had been fatally injured by a police officer in 2010 the mps and the then commissioner paul stevenson
00:28:32 stevenson acknowledged that mr peach's death in these circumstances was a matter of grave concern this remains the case however the crown prosecution service has concluded that no further investigations are now possible
00:28:44 possible the inquiry is not investigating the death of blair peach however it has obtained evidence from a former undercover officer who states that they attended the demonstration in south hall prior to mr peach's fatal injury
00:28:55 mr peach's fatal injury and another who attended mr peach's funeral
00:28:57 funeral the inquiry will also hear evidence regarding reporting into the campaigning and public demonstrations that follow mr peach's death surrounding his inquest and thereafter typically
00:29:10 typically referenced in the context of reporting about groups which supported the campaign
00:29:14 campaign sixth intelligence collation and personal information so it is correct to observe that the reporting in this period includes a substantial volume of personal information
00:29:25 information some of this such as a person's approximate age their physical appearance their address professional trade employment and employment history contacts
00:29:34 contacts and associated vehicles may be understood as being relevant to reporting on persons of interest to special branch or the security service indeed the papers show that sds officers were frequently asked to provide exactly
00:29:49 frequently asked to provide exactly this sort of information there is also reporting on sensitive personal information which may or may not have been justifiable to record depending on the context such reporting might include
00:30:02 might include details about relationships starting or ending
00:30:02 ending with reasons or attendees at social events and the members of a person's family or household the mps acknowledges that some of the information about personal
00:30:14 information about personal lives was set down in more detail than was necessary but it reiterates that intelligence collection does on occasion require the recording of detail which may seem innocuous or irrelevant but may be significant to later date
00:30:30 but may be significant to later date because it explains the contacts and likely associations of a person of interest
00:30:35 interest or can be connected to other information to form a more complete picture of a person's motivations additionally sir in the years preceding the regulation of investigatory powers act of 2000 known as ripper
00:30:47 as ripper the mps didn't approach the risk of collateral intrusion or its avoidance or minimization as it currently would in the period 1973 to 1982 the concept of collateral intrusion
00:31:02 the concept of collateral intrusion would simply not have been appreciated by undercover officers or their managers within the sds's reporting there are also descriptive words and phrases that are by modern standards out of date
00:31:14 out of date and which clearly would not be acceptable now including words such as coloured the mps observes only that the inquiry shouldn't criticize officers for the use of language
00:31:27 language 40 or 50 years ago which was uncontroversial at the time notwithstanding that it would now not be used
00:31:37 used however sir no attempt will be made to justify the use of language that was discriminatory gratuitously insulting or clearly irrelevant and without any conceivable intelligence value
00:31:50 finally sir training and support for undercover police officers just as in phase one throughout this period there was no national undercover training or standards of best practice undercover policing wasn't subject to
00:32:02 undercover policing wasn't subject to the legal regulatory and professional structures or policies and training that are now in place and while undercut while the officers continued to rely on their police and special bonds training
00:32:15 special bonds training system developed for spending time in the back office which period during which time officers learned about the work of the sds from those who are doing it already the system of regular meetings and
00:32:28 the system of regular meetings and access to management both at a group and individual level throughout the deployments appears to have been formalized during this period and the importance of welfare and support plainly
00:32:39 support plainly was noted as a priority the mps recognizes however that the officers themselves have a range of views about the level of support they received and the effects of their deployments on them and on their families
00:32:56 so in conclusion the mps doesn't suggest that the points i've made in this opening are comprehensive this isn't the place for a detailed review of the evidence and all the issues arising in this phase of evidence however the mps will continue to participate fully in and
00:33:09 continue to participate fully in and facilitate the inquiry's work in tranche one phase two of its investigations and to do so as throughout with openness transparency and a willingness to learn and to improve
00:33:19 improve thank you sir thank you mr skelton and in particular thank you for taking rather less than your unlocked time i raise one matter with you it concerns paragraph 24
00:33:31 concerns paragraph 24 of your written opening statement
00:33:39 um one of the tasks of the inquiry arising from its terms of reference is to consider whether or not a miscarriage of justice may have occurred in consequence of the activity of an undercover officer um
00:33:52 of an undercover officer um such an instance may arise in phase two of tranche one the star and garter incident
00:34:03 incident uh the test which i propose to have in mind when determining whether or not miscarriage of justice may have occurred is that which would be applied by the court of appeal hearing an appeal from
00:34:17 from the crown court in a criminal case namely whether or not the conviction is unsafe if there are reasonable grounds for believing that
00:34:34 for believing that any conviction is unsafe then i would be minded to refer the matter to the panel to investigate as a potential miscarriage of justice if that threshold is not met i don't intend to refer it if it is met and i have a stronger view than merely
00:34:46 than merely there are reasonable grounds to believe i will say so uh i do not intend in relation to the star and garter instant to defer doing that until after
00:34:59 to defer doing that until after we've heard the evidence in phase three for this reason the only evidence about managerial knowledge of what occurred at magistrates court
00:35:16 what occurred at magistrates court comes from three officers all of whom are dead
00:35:20 are dead uh assistant commissioner ferguson smith commander roger hn 294 and from one officer who attended the magistrates
00:35:33 the magistrates hearing hn hn103 whose report on what took place in the magistrates court is in the bundle
00:35:39 i cannot conceive that any further material is going to be discovered which can cast light upon what managers knew or authorized or ordered should happen than we already have in
00:35:52 should happen than we already have in those circumstances my intention would be
00:35:52 be not to delay
00:35:58 if you have any representation to make about the
00:35:59 about the test which i have in mind to apply um by all means make it uh i'm not inviting you to do
00:36:05 you to do do so instantaneously of course um and i would invite you to consider whether if you did wish to make any sense representation you would prefer to do so on paper
00:36:21 you would prefer to do so on paper immediately after the close of the evidential hearings in this phase or orally at the end but i'd ask you to reflect on that i'm also going to ask mr rider who is also concerned in this matter to do the same
00:36:37 matter to do the same so thank you um without wishing to give us
00:36:40 us as it were a final response i think the mps's position that is that there may not be any need to provide a legal gloss or definition to the test which is clear on the face of the terms of reference
00:36:51 reference which requires you to refer any case in respect of which you conclude that a miscarriage of justice may have occurred as a result of an undercover operation or its non-disclosure
00:37:03 or its non-disclosure but sir may i avail myself of the opportunity you've given me to put in written submissions um if so advised having taken
00:37:14 um if so advised having taken formal instructions yes i would also be grateful
00:37:17 grateful if you would discuss it with your counterpart mr ryder because it may be that there is an agreed position if there is that will be of assistance if there is an area of disagreement that it may be narrowed
00:37:30 it may be narrowed so i anticipate that if you are to set a as it were a general test for your future consideration of not just hn298's position but also that of other officers going forward in your inquiry that that
00:37:41 inquiry that that test may be of interest to other participants in those circumstances you may consider it appropriate to i do appreciate you don't want to have a hearing about this but to open up the opportunity to them to make representations as well
00:37:52 representations as well if and when issues arise that affect the individuals represented by recognized legal representatives of course
00:38:05 course they will have that opportunity but i am in particular concerned with a conviction that occurred now 49 years ago
00:38:12 years ago where those who were convicted who are still alive will wish to know whether their
00:38:23 whether their conviction is um a miscarriage of justice
00:38:24 justice or not and i cannot delay until the end of the enquiry when all of these issues have been fully ventilated but it isn't
00:38:35 isn't entirely fair sir i will leave mr ryder as your request thank you grateful to you
00:38:43 i think we are now going to break are we not for 15 minutes to permit the shorthand risers to have a arrest in between your submission and those of mr sanders
00:39:10 we will now take a 15 minute break the time is 3
00:39:15 time is 3 is 255 so we shall reconvene at 3 10 p.m thank you
00:56:56 hmm
00:57:08 welcome back everyone i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman
00:57:38 foreign
00:57:52 [Music] welcome back everyone i will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you mr sanders good afternoon sir um this is their second
00:58:02 second opening statement on behalf of the designated lawyer officer or participant group um in advance of the
00:58:07 the hearing starting next week um we have provided you with a slightly corrected uh second written opening statement which i believe is now on your website there were just a couple of
00:58:18 were just a couple of typos in there um so since uh i gave my first opening in october last year
00:58:25 year um the composition of uh our core participant group has changed slightly in that hn 81 and now en 53 have joined and so we have 103
00:58:45 53 have joined and so we have 103 special demonstration squad officers 11 mpoiu officers and one officer who is who is a member of both units
00:58:56 um i'm very grateful for the opportunity to reject you today sir my aim is to pick up some of the particular points and themes we stressed in our much longer first opening
00:59:06 opening and i propose broadly to follow um the structure of the written opening that we served last week so what i'm going to do is break my submissions into two halves essentially so the first
00:59:19 essentially so the first half will be just to look at some of the evidential questions uh that are facing you sir so that's parts two to four of our second opening and then the second half
00:59:31 second half will be to look at some of the specific um issues that have been raised and that are coming up in the in the coming uh hearings so starting with evidence and parts two to four of our opening um the main theme that
00:59:48 opening um the main theme that we want to stress is in relation to the completeness of the evidence and our starting point that is the fairly straightforward proposition that
00:59:59 proposition that the more complete the evidential picture you have
01:00:00 you have uh the more secure a foundation it will provide for um safe and reliable findings of fact [Music]
01:00:14 [Music] in terms of the evidence that you have so far and you're going to be hearing next week it is in our submission clear that there is a significant significant gap and significant polarization
01:00:28 significant polarization as between the evidence from police officers
01:00:32 officers and the evidence from those on the civilian
01:00:39 civilian side in terms of the police evidence and this is part two of our opening all 15 of the undercover officer rule nine statements um that are arising in in the tranchewan phase two hearings
01:00:52 phase two hearings uh coming up have been produced by the designated lawyer team albeit that hn80 was no longer a designated lawyer officer at the time he signed his statement um we have already stressed the limitations
01:01:09 we have already stressed the limitations uh inevitable limitations that there are in terms of the information and the materials available to you uh for putting to our clients in their rule 9 requests and their witness packs
01:01:23 their witness packs so the first limitation is in relation to intelligence reports and the fact that um the reports that you do have available are largely those sent to and retained by
01:01:33 by mi5 most of my clients think that their witness packs are incomplete in terms of the
01:01:46 packs are incomplete in terms of the intelligence reports that are there so some identify particular periods when they would have expected to see reporting particular events or even particular reports they remember writing the dump um
01:01:57 writing the dump um and then apart from intelligence reports there's obviously a dearth of available contemporaneous records so there are very few records of telephone calls and meetings and so on
01:02:11 and so on um what we've tried to do just to give a rough
01:02:16 rough indication of that is to set out a paragraph 2.5 of the statement um some basic numbers for our clients so if you one way of testing how many intelligence
01:02:28 one way of testing how many intelligence reports you might expect each undercover officer to have produced is to consider how many safe flat meetings
01:02:35 meetings they would have attended during the course of their deployment because it was at the meetings that they either submitted or drafted intelligence reports so if one takes
01:02:48 intelligence reports so if one takes the rough number of safe flat meetings that they would have been for each officer and compares that with the number of intelligence reports that each officer was shown one sees that there
01:02:57 there are um by and large there's a much smaller number of reports than one might um expect um
01:03:14 um expect um and then again a smaller number still of those reports that have been recovered are being uh posted onto opus and released
01:03:16 released the publication um in terms of the material that's available to the public so obviously you have sir a wider range of evidence in front of you
01:03:29 front of you but in terms of what's being released to the public it's a selection so it's a fraction of a fraction of the available material um and we say it's significant that those materials
01:03:43 those materials in some cases have been redacted to conceal or obscure mi5 interest in individuals those reductions unfortunately in some cases decontextualize
01:03:55 cases decontextualize the reporting the reasons for the reporting
01:03:59 reporting and why sds officers were doing what they were doing and furthermore in terms of the the upcoming phase of hearings um this they will of course exclude the closed offices so the officers who were undertaking
01:04:13 undertaking by and large the more dangerous deployments um so that's the the on the one hand that
01:04:19 that the police evidence and um the difficulties that there are in relation to that on the other hand sir is the civilian evidence um you have 11 civilian
01:04:33 you have 11 civilian subjects of reporting uh coming up in the hearings over the next few weeks uh and
01:04:43 and those 11 individuals in their their rule 9 statements in their live evidence for those who've been called live will be speaking to 14 years of undercover policing by approximately 50 sds offices
01:04:57 by approximately 50 sds offices so it's obviously a small sample of those
01:04:58 those affected and it's noticeable that the sample is somewhat skewed towards
01:05:05 towards anti-apartheid campaigns in a way that the overall coverage of the sds was not um most of the groups
01:05:25 um most of the groups reported on by the sds inevitably had a spread of members and supporters from the more moderate end of the spectrum to the more extreme so what one has is within any group
01:05:31 group there will be individuals who are able to say they had no interest in violence or disorder then there may be individuals who had a very different perspective it's of course as we stressed in our
01:05:49 it's of course as we stressed in our first opening it's a complicated picture in terms of the public order seen with various groups piggybacking on other groups and campaigns or hijacking other groups and campaigns
01:06:01 other groups and campaigns seeking to exploit them and also scope for confrontation between groups who by themselves might not have done anything disorderly when confronted with opposing views might act differently
01:06:13 and so for example when one considers the
01:06:14 the international socialist the swp that organization had a lot of teachers and social workers as members at branch level um who were
01:06:30 at branch level um who were by and large perfectly moderate law-abiding citizens it also had within its ranks others who were involved in serious violence and disorder who were interested in
01:06:44 interested in targeting and taking over other causes and campaigns and who were involved in talking to the plo and so on
01:06:58 it's clear from both contemporaneous evidence relevant to the time in question and also from the opening statements and the evidence that you've been provided with that some of those reported on by the sds held
01:07:07 sds held and still hold extreme anti-police views and in this regard it's important in our submission to keep in mind that
01:07:23 in our submission to keep in mind that the police are often seen or treated as the visible embodiment or personification of the establishment or the status quo and so for some people some groups clashes with the police
01:07:36 clashes with the police and the perpetration of anti-police narratives were and still are one way to attack and discredit and stir up resemble towards the establishment in the status quo
01:07:52 as you know sir this inquiry engages a number of
01:07:55 number of very sensitive and contentious issues and incidents some of which involved the police we've picked up in paragraphs 3.8 to 3.9 of our opening statement claims made by
01:08:09 of our opening statement claims made by terry kelly and pierce corbyn about the deaths of blair peach and kevin gateney these are obviously sensitive topics and the simple point that we emphasize
01:08:21 that we emphasize differentiate between first-hand evidence
01:08:26 evidence and hearsay and between factual evidence and opinion evidence
01:08:44 turning to part four of our written opening and really trying to um bring together the two um sides of the evidence that you have in our submission that there is an emerging um evidential picture which is highly polarized
01:08:55 polarized so on the one hand police witnesses speaking about threats to public order the need for intelligence and on the other hand civilian witnesses disputing this completely
01:09:09 disputing this completely um in order to establish where the truth lies
01:09:13 lies it's not enough simply to compare the two accounts or choose between them um in our submission what you sir and your team need to do is to obtain more contextual evidence um
01:09:27 more contextual evidence um as to what was going on on the ground at the period in question in order for you to um contextualize the two different um sides of the evidence
01:09:39 evidence um and in our written opening simply to illustrate this point and just by way of case study we've picked up the example of what happened with
01:09:52 happened with hn 336 and the questions that he was asked about the stop the 17 tour campaign i'm not going to take you through the ins and outs of it now i mean
01:10:03 ins and outs of it now i mean to a large extent it's um it's water under the bridge but the the short point is that hn 336 recalled
01:10:08 recalled the stop the 70 tour and support us having attacked and damaged cricket grounds
01:10:19 grounds and it was put to him that there was no press coverage to support what he had said
01:10:21 said and he must have been thinking of a later event now in fact there was a very well documented attack on multiple cricket grounds that was plainly linked to the stop the 74
01:10:36 to the stop the 74 um and which broadly fitted with hn 336's
01:10:37 336's recollection um now it seemed no need to get bogged down into the
01:10:48 into the in the detail of that at this stage but uh the point we draw out of it is that the inquiry needs um more uh reliable contextual evidence in order to
01:11:03 contextual evidence in order to frame and assess the the evidence of the witnesses it's going to hear from um it may well be that you and your team have undertaken more background reading and research um we flagged up in our
01:11:14 and research um we flagged up in our written opening the question that the commission's team asked your team in terms of what materials you have read or considered about the historical context and the background
01:11:29 context and the background in our submission that question should be answered there should be transparency about the materials that the inquiry has considered in terms of informing itself about the context
01:11:43 context we drew attention to in our first written opening the the various annual reports of the commissioner which contain a great deal of information about public order and the public order seen
01:11:58 public order and the public order seen at the material time and since we gave our opening reaction we provided your team with copies of uh relevant extracts we also flagged that there were regular reports produced by special branch
01:12:10 produced by special branch and i understand that those have now been obtained and are in the process of being
01:12:17 being detected and will be released in due course
01:12:19 course in addition to those materials we
01:12:31 in addition to those materials we would like to put forward three possible sources of further contextual evidence to assist you in evaluating the competing
01:12:34 competing accounts of the witnesses you're going to hear from so the first is contemporaneous media and hansard reports
01:12:45 and hansard reports the commissioner's annual reports that we we've referred to give dates and locations for hundreds of public order events
01:12:57 hundreds of public order events during the tranche one period in our submission one way of collating evidence about those events is to look at contemporaneous media reporting
01:13:09 contemporaneous media reporting before and particularly after they took place
01:13:10 place [Music]
01:13:14 [Music] so reporting about the incidents themselves also hansard debates and questions about them all of that material is in our submission
01:13:25 our submission highly illuminating particularly in terms of
01:13:27 terms of evaluating the the pressures and the expectations that were generally placed on the police
01:13:38 placed on the police at that time and what they were being asked to do
01:13:46 the second proposal that we put forward is one of calling expert evidence about the period
01:13:59 expert evidence about the period in question we've mentioned in our in our latest written opening the evidence that um professor robert service gave and to the litvindenko inquiry and the evidence that professor thomas hennessey gave to the birmingham pub bombing inquests
01:14:10 bombing inquests um it is well established that expert academic historians are able to assist inquisitorial processes
01:14:24 able to assist inquisitorial processes um understand the context within which particular events happened and in our submission um there must be individuals who could help you sir
01:14:35 help you sir and understand the extent to which public order was an issue and a problem for society and for the metropolitan police in particular
01:14:49 particular the third source that we say would assist you sir if considered more closely
01:15:01 sir if considered more closely is publications produced by the groups were reported on by the sds because these
01:15:01 these show what those groups were saying what they were urging their supporters and
01:15:12 and potential supporters and to do or positions to take you've seen in the evidence of
01:15:29 take you've seen in the evidence of norman temple reference to the inlsf publication irish liberation press and we've drawn out in our in our written opening some of the um extraordinary and wild uh content of that publication uh and in our submission it's important to consider those
01:15:41 to consider those because they shed light on what the groups were doing what the police and mi5's understanding about that may have been or what their concerns may have been for the reasons they may have felt that
01:15:54 for the reasons they may have felt that the collection of intelligence would be of value
01:16:06 so that's all i want to say about um evidence uh from a general perspective just turning now to the second half of uh the submissions i want to address you on today and that's the
01:16:19 address you on today and that's the specific issues or a number of specific issues particularly that have been raised
01:16:23 raised in or or emerge from the civilian evidence and openings
01:16:31 so the first uh this is part five of our um second opening sir is the is the the question of just causes and whether it's
01:16:44 whether it's relevant um that a particular group um was pursuing uh what might be considered a just or a righteous cause um some of the the evidence that you've been provided with places considerable emphasis
01:16:56 emphasis on the fact that um causes being
01:17:07 on the fact that um causes being proposed or pursued were just and that's particularly in connection with anti-apartheid and anti-racist causes um in our submission that is irrelevant from the perspective of public order
01:17:18 of public order policing the police's duty to maintain public order and to keep the peace is and must be the same regardless of the politics or aims of particular campaigners or protesters
01:17:31 or protesters this remains true
01:17:41 when a demonstration or protest is about or against the police itself [Music]
01:17:42 [Music] and furthermore the collection of intelligence on particular groups does not require or signify police opposition to that group's objectives
01:17:55 objectives the concern is with public order it does not matter whether or not the police agree with the particular cause and it's important to grasp the fact that the police cannot be expected
01:18:07 that the police cannot be expected the judge which cause causes a just or which causes will be just judged as having been just in the fullness of time and neither can they be expected to stand back and let proponents of just causes or
01:18:20 and let proponents of just causes or those who are demonstrating against the police or complaining about that police misconduct simply get on with it
01:18:30 with it unsupervised um and that is because the duty to keep the peace is universal um in this regard um we flagged in our in our written opening um that one of course has the stop the 70 tour
01:18:45 course has the stop the 70 tour which was opposed to um all white south african
01:18:45 african sports teams touring um the country um and the fact that the activities of the stop 72
01:18:58 the stop 72 obviously have public order implications from the police perspective it would make no difference if it was a far-right group um seeking to disrupt the tour by an all-black west indies cricket team the public order implications are the same
01:19:09 order implications are the same regardless of whether or not those protesting or campaigning are in the right or in the wrong
01:19:22 right or in the wrong so the next theme that emerges from the civilian evidence and the openings is an emphasis on whether particular groups supported the use of violence
01:19:36 use of violence or whether by contrast they supported non-violent direct action and again in our submission this misses the point um public order is not simply an absence of violence
01:19:53 is not simply an absence of violence it is a state of public uh tranquility and calm which allows protesters and non-protesters go about their lawful activities at the same time
01:20:01 same time in the same public spaces and so whether or not
01:20:02 or not they involve violence the intimidation disruption and obstruction of others
01:20:16 obstruction of others are forms of disorder and they're also liable to escalate and become more disorderly
01:20:24 and furthermore protests and demonstrations involving large numbers of people
01:20:28 of people um engage considerations of crowd psychology that we've flagged in our previous opening
01:20:34 opening and again are amenable to being hijacked and exploited by others with other agendas and orderly protests demonstrations still require peace oversight
01:20:46 oversight and management in order to maintain the peace
01:20:48 peace and so the fact that a particular protest or demonstration um did not involve violence and disorder may have been due to successful public order policing and does not mean that the con
01:20:59 and does not mean that the con collection of intelligence about it in advance was not justified
01:21:05 similarly the fact that a particular sds officer did not witness disorder or violence either generally or at a particular event maybe because he or she avoided
01:21:24 maybe because he or she avoided trouble or because the event was orderly due to successful public order policing and again it does not mean that the collection of intelligence by that officer
01:21:25 officer was not justified furthermore um there is extensive evidence of groups reporting
01:21:35 reporting reported on by the sds being involved in disorder
01:21:36 disorder a paragraph 6.4 of our opening we set out 13 examples of serious award disorder
01:21:44 disorder being planned or taking place um and similarly in relation to the stop the 70 tour
01:22:00 the 70 tour campaign it is in our submission obvious that if the south african cricket tour cricket team had arrived and the tour had gone ahead the activities of the stop 70 tour campaign
01:22:08 campaign would have had significant public order implications and then it was right that the police were um collecting intelligence on those so that uh at the tour gone ahead public order could have been maintained
01:22:23 order could have been maintained um lord hayne mr vodka and mr rosenhead all refer to a violent reaction
01:22:34 all refer to a violent reaction from rugby fans at matches that were interrupted by the stop the 70 tour campaigners one only needs to remember what um international sporting events are like one has
01:22:44 one has thousands of enthusiasts there who've paid
01:22:48 paid good money to see their favorite sport and many of them will be drinking on the on the day and from the perspective of rugby or cricket fans
01:23:02 cricket fans to see that the lawful match interrupted and then denied their enjoyment is bound to lead to the potential for disorder
01:23:15 so the next issue i wanted to pick up was
01:23:20 was part seven of our latest written opening it's just in relation to police resources so one suggestion has been made that
01:23:30 made that the special demonstration squad was a waste of resources and it would have been better to have deployed the officers involved elsewhere and in our submission it's important to stand back and to remember that in the 1970s the
01:23:44 and to remember that in the 1970s the population of london was approximately 7 million and the authorized establishment of the metropolitan police was
01:23:49 was 26 000 officers and so it can be seen that the redeployment of a dozen or so special branch detectives
01:24:01 special branch detectives could not be said to have made a material difference to crime in the capital and indeed we say it's clear from the commissioner's annual reports for that period
01:24:12 period that the met was approximately 20 below complement during that period and that the commissioner's clear view was that
01:24:23 was that spiraling um public order duties were having a negative effect on morale recruitment and retention within the police
01:24:37 and retention within the police and we referred in our first opening to there having been thousands of significant public order events and thousands of injuries to police officers during the transform period
01:24:49 and what one sees is the commissioner in his annual reports in public speeches and in evidence to parliament emphasizing again and again his number one problem
01:25:03 one problem was public order and in our submission the collection of reliable public order intelligence was a cost-effective way of dealing with that problem
01:25:18 that problem and of managing the resources of police in general sir i just want to turn to the question of
01:25:29 of information that's included in the intelligence reports that the inquiry has been able to
01:25:42 obtain you will have seen in the the rule nine statements of my clients that um every undercover officer says pretty much the same thing which was that they harvested all the information they could
01:25:57 information they could they reported it back more or less unfiltered and it was for others to sort the wheat from the chaff and take decisions about what was useful what to keep for how long it should be kept
01:26:11 kept um it's also important to to bear in mind that precisely the same types of information were routinely included in other special branch reports whether or not collected by
01:26:23 not collected by undercover police officers or from secret sources
01:26:31 in terms of the information that was collected it's also important to bear in mind that
01:26:32 mind that it was being provided to mi5 for use in identifying possible performance and for using carrying out vetting inquiries so there would be lots of information
01:26:46 so there would be lots of information personal information which may have a relevance
01:26:49 relevance for mi5 and it may be appropriate to report
01:26:50 report it as a result
01:26:57 the groups that the sds reported on were of course made up of people and therefore it was inevitable that reporting on those groups and the people in them
01:27:08 in them involved the reporting of personal information that was necessary first to identify who was being referred to who's being talked about
01:27:20 talked about and secondly because the information might be relevant or useful either to special branch or to mi5 in terms of the reporting of information about children um
01:27:35 children um as we touch on in our in our written opening it's not in in the in one of your issues lists the fact that there was information about children in sds undercover reporting
01:27:47 children in sds undercover reporting now submission there is nothing harmful about including information about children um and that the individuals who were being reported are had children and in some cases
01:28:03 are had children and in some cases they were trying to recruit and exploit and raise money from other people's children
01:28:09 children we've referred to in paragraph 9.3 of our opening a document aimed at children produced by the national union of school children sorry the national union of school students
01:28:23 students and the documents entitled how to disrupt your school in six easy lessons um and essentially it encourages children to go on strike in school uniform petty rules exams
01:28:37 in school uniform petty rules exams and useless lessons and it also reminds them to collect funds and send them to the
01:28:41 the national office in our submission some of this activity is highly questionable and the fact that groups being reported on uh by the sds were involved in it
01:28:53 were involved in it meant that inevitably it would be um [Music]
01:28:57 [Music] caught up in on the subject of sds reporting
01:29:01 reporting there's nothing sinister or harmful in that
01:29:01 that fact
01:29:12 it is in our submission easy to cherry pick um isolated examples of reports which contain sensitive personal data trivia or outdated terms of expression
01:29:25 trivia or outdated terms of expression taken from intelligence reports that may be 40
01:29:25 be 40 50 years old that were compiled at the height of the cold war and the northern ireland troubles and it's easy to take those and to query whether or not
01:29:36 whether or not that information should have been collected
01:29:42 collected what we say is more important is the fact not that it was collected but that it was retained had items of trivia being collected and discarded a short while later it would have put a completely
01:29:55 would have put a completely different complexion on things because that would be part of what one would expect information is collected and then it's sifted and only what's need needs to be kept is kept so in our submission the more important question
01:30:08 important question is not why was such information collected in the first place but why was it retained so long particularly by
01:30:20 particularly by mi5 and that's a question which witness zed does not answer in their statement um
01:30:28 those were the points we simply wanted that to flag up in advance of the hearings
01:30:33 hearings um and uh i'm very grateful for the opportunity to the time today to do that thank you may i take up one point arises uh principally out of your um
01:30:44 out of your um written opening rather than what you've just spoken um hn 336 i don't want to make a mountain out of this mole hill but um it illustrates a point
01:30:55 um it illustrates a point and therefore i will go into it in a little more detail than i would otherwise deserve um you say that his evidence was
01:31:06 you say that his evidence was and i quote what you say they attacked and damaged cricket grounds close quote in fact it wasn't it was
01:31:18 in fact it wasn't it was but they got up to all sorts of well-publicized antics digging up the pitch of lords pouring oil over the wicked
01:31:29 i did as it happens check to see whether there was any reporting of digging up the pitch of lords and pouring oil over the wicked there wasn't and the reason there wasn't is because it didn't happen
01:31:49 you're quite right there was reporting about incidents which had taken place at grants throughout the country on one night
01:31:56 i was trying as indeed council of the inquiry was trying with a witness who seemed to me was doing his best to tell me what he
01:32:12 doing his best to tell me what he recalled and as best he would call it to explain uh what he had identified as a specific incident when he was mistaken about it and i put to him the only very well known
01:32:20 known incident of digging up cricket pitch the third test at headingley in 1975 george davis is innocent
01:32:29 innocent and with a view to seeing if that might explain
01:32:33 explain a statement that was inaccurate that was my only purpose in doing it and i thought it was to his credit he accepted that he might be mistaken about that
01:32:40 that however if you as his recognized or instructed by his recognized legal representative
01:32:54 recognized legal representative thought that the proposition i had put to him and his acceptance of it was
01:32:59 of it was wrong and needed further exploration you had the opportunity in re-examination to put that right
01:33:10 this is a minor matter and i'm devoting very much more time to it and i would ordinarily choose to do so but it illustrates a point if you think that
01:33:21 that council of the inquiry or i have got something
01:33:22 something wrong either mistakenly or from a erroneous viewpoint and under put something to a witness stemming from that and produced an answer
01:33:34 answer which you you conclude is wrong then of course you're free to re-examine on that
01:33:41 that period allowed for
01:33:46 the advocate for recognized legal representatives it permits exactly that to happen and so if this is or was or should ever be treated as a significant matter then um
01:34:01 a significant matter then um that's the method of dealing with it which is available to you and if it arises in the future you might consider using it well so the the difficulty is of course that um
01:34:15 that um at the time i didn't have any material any evidential basis at my fingertips for coming back on that and what mr barb put to him 336
01:34:26 and what mr barb put to him 336 in his questions was that there had been no press reporting of such an event now granted the pitch was dug up at sophia gardens not
01:34:37 sophia gardens not lords um and oil wasn't poured on any pitches but but weed killer was but to say to hm336 that
01:34:48 that there was no reporting of such an event and the closest that can be found uh is the george davis his innocent uh event headingley in our submission uh wasn't fair and it's it's um it's it's a question of um the material that's
01:34:58 that's available um i don't understand uh why if you and mr barr had had the information about saphir gardens and about weed killer
01:35:11 about weed killer in front of you that wouldn't have been put to him instead of the possibility that he was thinking about 1975 and headingly because there was obviously a link to the stopper 70 tour
01:35:26 well i i've said what i want to about it i've
01:35:28 i've heard what you say in response but should this situation arise in the future there is a method of dealing with this which i would urge you to adopt
01:35:35 to adopt well i i take my board and we will um you know if and when we can and i it's it's maybe worth mentioning that um we contacted hm 336 and said
01:35:50 we contacted hm 336 and said uh that we would be raising this in opening and that you know we felt he'd be he'd been right all along and he was very relaxed and said he'd forgotten about it so it's really just to illustrate the point about contextual information sir
01:36:06 about contextual information sir it also illustrates the point about asking
01:36:10 asking officers now of some age like some of us not you
01:36:14 not you about events that occurred when we were all very young and um it illustrates the difficulty of giving
01:36:23 giving precise answers about things that long ago
01:36:26 ago that were not utterly central to what they
01:36:27 they or we were doing absolutely okay then i think that concludes proceedings for today
01:36:41 proceedings for today we will resume i think at 10 o'clock tomorrow
01:36:43 tomorrow thank you
01:37:06 thank you everyone the opening statements have now finished for the day we shall resume at 10 am tomorrow
01:37:42 you