Liisa Crossland - Stepson's Identity Stolen by HN16

Full transcript

00:44:19 Good morning everybody. Uh we are going to begin this morning with an open hearing. Uh proceedings will be transmitted in the usual way after a 10-minute delay. Those with um mobile

00:44:32 10-minute delay. Those with um mobile devices may use them to transmit to the outside world what they have heard in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. They may not be used for for photography or recording. May the witness be sworn, please. Thank you.

00:44:52 Oh my.

00:45:12 Please sit down, Mr. Constant. You have done. Um, in the event that you need a break at any stage, all you need to do is say so and we will pause. Thank you, sir.

00:45:21 sir. Yes.

00:45:29 Can you give us your full name, please? Lisa Crossland. Mrs. Crossland, you have provided the

00:45:41 Mrs. Crossland, you have provided the inquiry with two witness statements. The first one has a control number of UCPI 000038207.

00:45:53 This consists of 72 pages and is dated the 30th of May 2025 and signed by you. Do you have any clarifications or corrections that you want to make to that statement, Mrs. Crossland?

00:46:05 that statement, Mrs. Crossland? Yes, there is one uh correction to be made. When we were contacted 2018,

00:46:07 2018, um we were not told 16 name. If I just take you to the page, I think the the correction you want to make is at page 10 of your statement.

00:46:32 It's that paragraph 2.24.

00:46:50 Yes. Mr. Dart informed us that the officer who was referred as Hen 16, he did not give the name. He did not give the real name of the officer. Okay. In fact, do you remember when you discovered the real name of the officer?

00:46:59 officer? We found out about three years ago. Three years ago from now. Thank you. Other than that correction, Mrs.

00:47:10 Other than that correction, Mrs. Crossland. Is that statement now true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.

00:47:16 Yes. And you provided the inquiry with a second witness statement. That's UCPI5039408.

00:47:24 That statement consists of seven pages and is dated the 31st of October 2025.

00:47:37 It's not yet signed by you, but is that statement true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes.

00:47:43 Yes. Both of your statements, Mrs. Crossland, are now evidence in their entirety um before the inquiry. These statements address your experience as a member of the family of a deceased child, Kevin Crossland, whose identity

00:47:57 child, Kevin Crossland, whose identity was used by an SDS undercover officer, James Thompson, to create an unauthorized cover identity. The officer's cover name was James Straven, real name James Thompson, nominal HN16.

00:48:11 nominal HN16. How would you like me to refer to him throughout your evidence today, Mrs. Crossland? H16. 1860.

00:48:22 I'm going to ask start by asking you about your relationship to the child named Kevin Crossland. Um before we go any further, you have provided the inquiry with some photographs of Kevin. So I'm going to

00:48:36 photographs of Kevin. So I'm going to ask that these are put up on the screen now. Can I please have UCPI50 3904

00:48:43 and UCPI50 3905?

00:48:56 Mrs. Crossen, do you want to tell us who's in these pictures? Kevin is with his grandmother and that's taken in South Wimbledon.

00:49:09 taken in South Wimbledon. Both of those pictures are Kevin and his grandmother, are they? Yes.

00:49:13 Yes. Lovely. Thank you. Do you know roughly how old Kevin would have been in these photos?

00:49:18 photos? I I wouldn't be surprised. They went to visit the grandma from Leicester that summer just before going on holiday. So looking at the picture, none of the

00:49:36 looking at the picture, none of the photographs has actually dates on them. So I could looking at the picture most likely he could be 5 years old then. Five years old. We I think it's correct to say that um Kevin was born on the 5th of March 1961 to his parents David Crossland and Daphne Crossland.

00:49:53 Daphne Crossland. And we know that Kevin died on the 1st of September 1966. I'm going to ask that his death certificate is put up on the screen. That is UCPI50 38351.

00:50:08 38351. And sir, that appears at A5 in your bundle.

00:50:15 Second page, please.

00:50:27 Sorry, it's 38350. My mistake.

00:50:40 Thank you.

00:50:49 When Kevin died, as we can see, he was five years old. And this death certificate states these were deaths in aircraft registered in the United Kingdom.

00:50:58 Kingdom. The place of his death is recorded as um

00:51:09 The place of his death is recorded as um Ljubljana airport vicinity. Are you able to tell us, Mrs. Crossed, if you feel able to, how Kevin passed away? Kevin was going on holiday with his

00:51:20 Kevin was going on holiday with his mother for and sister and David his father.

00:51:26 father. Um they left UK 31st of August flying and this was early hours 1st of September when they were approached in um uh Lupyama airport. Um, David had moved from the he had

00:51:42 Um, David had moved from the he had tried through the flight plate with Kevin and when the landing lights came on and the seat seat belts were supposed to be put on, he changed seats with his wife and she sat on

00:51:57 seats with his wife and she sat on David's seat and David sat on the other side of the gang way and he heard his daughter calling out that we are hitting three tops and there's a fire I mean,

00:52:13 there's a fire I mean, and it's correct that the plane crashed. And in your witness statement, you tell us that in that same plane crash, Kevin's mother, Daphne, and his sister, Lynn, who I think was just nine years old, nine years old, also passed away. Correct.

00:52:32 Kevin's father, David, your late husband, survived that plane crash. Can I ask that we now bring up the photograph of David Crossland? That's document UCPI 5039409.

00:52:42 5039409. If we could have that on the screen as well.

00:52:51 Thank you. Mrs. Crossen, can you tell us um how you came to meet David? At the time I was working in theos one of the London hospitals

00:53:07 of the London hospitals and I had heard about the air crash and read in the papers and then one day we were told that we were getting this patient coming from Yugoslavia and informed that he's the one who has been in the air and survived and I was

00:53:20 in the air and survived and I was allocated to look after him when I was on duty and Um I get to know him person his personality while I was working

00:53:34 personality while I was working and I tried to encourage him to know something about Finland and all the patients. I used to bring them leaflets from the Finnish seaman search to look at them and um

00:53:45 at them and um that was the start when I got to know him a little bit. And how long um was he in the hospital whilst you were working there?

00:53:53 there? Um

00:53:55 Um I left the ward uh just before Christmas

00:54:09 uh just before Christmas and he was still in the hospital and uh I went on holiday back to Finland and when I returned I was put into a skin and infectious ward. So I had no contact with David at all and he had

00:54:24 contact with David at all and he had been asking round for my phone number for some reason. He was telling everybody he's going to take as a thank you meal all the girls. And uh it took

00:54:37 you meal all the girls. And uh it took like six months later we met then next time.

00:54:41 time. And then when did you and David get married?

00:54:42 married? We got married in uh May, 5th of May 1968.

00:54:55 I persuaded David to go to Finland with me 19

00:55:04 me 19 67, end of 67. And when we came back from Finland, he was going to have further surgery and he was back in hospital.

00:55:17 Are you able to tell us a bit about David's experience of the plane crash and how it affected him physically?

00:55:29 and how it affected him physically? David had multiple injuries as well. And he he described that when he was in the plane,

00:55:34 plane, he could see this fire coming towards him

00:55:35 him and

00:55:40 and he did undid his seat belt and he felt like he fell through the hole on the ground and I think that was the time when he did damage to his both legs and he managed to crawl away from the plane

00:55:59 he managed to crawl away from the plane up the hill. He described it as heal and elevate his both legs up in the air and wait for help.

00:56:07 And he suffered enormous guilts for surviving.

00:56:24 Now, of course, Mrs. Crossen, you did not meet Kevin yourself, but would you like to tell us a bit about what you learned about Kevin and his life from David?

00:56:31 David? David used to tell me how he loved football.

00:56:33 football. And

00:56:41 And of course, David was a fit man. He was able to play with Kevin and he was a very happy child. And um they used to he used to take Kevin to park and play football. And he also he loved his little cars. He used

00:56:56 also he loved his little cars. He used to collect the little cars which we kept for generations. And um what else?

00:57:07 So his some of Kevin's toys have been kept by the Yes. Yes. He had this um

00:57:22 Yes. Yes. He had this um tractor uh with the petals and of course Mark had that as well. So we kept some of the toys and so I was going to say you and David went on to have I think two children of your own. one of whom Mark sits next to you um who's also a core participant to the inquiry and I

00:57:34 core participant to the inquiry and I should say Mark has also submitted his own statement to the inquiry and were Kevin and his sister Lynn talked about with your your two subsequent children Mark

00:57:48 subsequent children Mark they were we spoke about all the time Kevin and Lynn were part of the family all time and three to four times a year we went to visit their grave

00:58:01 we went to visit their grave and the children in the court, one in the seat. We've arriving 200 miles to this graveyard. And I'm a great believer that it helps healing.

00:58:21 And I should say Kevin's father, David, your late husband's obviously very sadly no longer with us. Are you able to tell us um when when David passed away? David was diagnosed with a cancer uh

00:58:39 two I think you say in a witness statement around

00:58:40 around in the year 2000 yes 2000 he had symptoms 1999 lots of symptoms but they were not connected

00:58:54 symptoms but they were not connected and then they finally diagnosed cancer in May 2000 And he finally passed away in 2001. Is that correct? That's correct. 1st of November 2001.

00:59:10 Thank you for telling us about Kevin and David. I'm going to ask you now about the discovery that Kevin's identity had been used by HN16. Can you tell us how did you and Mark

00:59:25 Can you tell us how did you and Mark first come to know that Kevin's identity had been used by an undercover officer HM16?

00:59:27 HM16? Um Mark was coming home one evening and he had the police office waiting for him and uh

00:59:40 and uh Mark invited him in because he wanted to talk about something and um he told Mark that this has happened that um undercover officer has used

00:59:50 used Kevin's name and um

00:59:55 and um it was

01:00:07 um terrible shock for Mark. It brought all the memories of his dad fighting with the cancer and um unbelievable. You just can't believe that somebody would go so low.

01:00:20 believe that somebody would go so low. I think um from Mark's statement, this happened on the 27th of June 2018. And were you there when Mark initially found this out? No. Mark came to me that evening.

01:00:37 So it's about 17 years after David had died that this revelation first came to light.

01:00:42 light. How do you feel about the fact that David

01:00:46 David didn't know died before he knew about this?

01:00:51 this? I I just feel that he wouldn't have been able to go if he knew. But I think he would have wanted very much justice to

01:01:05 would have wanted very much justice to his son. He loved those children. I know his love what he gave to my children. I'm sure he gave same love to them.

01:01:18 And just briefly, has has this knowledge impacted on your wider family but beyond you and your children? Also my grandchildren.

01:01:32 I'm going to ask you about the longer term impact that this has had on you when we get to the end of our questions, Mrs. across them. But for now, can you tell us at the time or

01:01:46 for now, can you tell us at the time or now, do you feel that the use of Kevin's identity by H16 had impacted on your safety at all?

01:01:58 safety at all? It's it's very difficult to know, but it has made me very very weary about other people and the police particularly. And I had the burglary soon after I had the news that Kevin's ID had been stolen.

01:02:09 stolen. Yes.

01:02:13 Yes. And in that burglary there was all the papers gathered everywhere, massed windows. But to this day, I haven't found anything really missing.

01:02:24 found anything really missing. So in your statement at paragraph 2.55, you reference a burglary that occurred I think November 2018 in your family home. Okay.

01:02:31 Okay. So, is that the burglary you're talking about?

01:02:31 about? Yes.

01:02:38 Yes. And can you just very briefly tell us what what what you found when you got home in terms of this burglary? I found um uh door all the doors were open inside doors. Couple of doors were

01:02:51 open inside doors. Couple of doors were open. Drawers were opened up and all the paper scattered everywhere. And um upstairs exactly same thing.

01:03:03 And um upstairs exactly same thing. And was anything stolen to your knowledge? To my knowledge I'm not sure if the £20 went or if if I had 20 in my purse, but

01:03:15 went or if if I had 20 in my purse, but nothing nothing had gone from the house. No items.

01:03:16 No items. No.

01:03:24 Was there a police investigation into the burger? Yes, I called police and they came um uh this happened early afternoon and

01:03:37 uh this happened early afternoon and they came 7:00 in the evening to look at the place. I was told not to touch anything which I didn't. And was there any outcome to that police investigation that you know of? No.

01:03:45 No. So

01:03:51 So you were saying that that burglary uh

01:03:55 uh has made you wonder and you become very wary. What why exactly why did you connect that? It makes me very very nervous that I had been living at the time I had been living over 40 years in

01:04:20 time I had been living over 40 years in the same house and we never whole street we never had any burgarism and suddenly this happened. It just sort of made me feel could this be a connection and

01:04:23 and it it just makes you very frightened.

01:04:36 Thank you, Mrs. Crossland. Wanted to ask you as well, has this discovery about the use of Kevin's identity affected your own feelings about Kevin?

01:04:48 [clears throat] I I just feel like that grave has been ducked out, the child's grave.

01:05:07 I sorry I also feel that you don't need the law to go and take somebody's it. What do you mean by that? I mean that this should be clear to everyone.

01:05:13 everyone. that we don't go stealing people's IDs.

01:05:23 I want to talk now about the actions taken by HM16 to acquire Kevin's identity and what he did with it.

01:05:36 identity and what he did with it. In his third witness statement provided to the inquiry. That's UCPI50 3553

01:05:39 3553 paragraph 76.1

01:05:48 come up on the screen so you don't need to worry about looking in the papers but H16 says that he essentially can't

01:06:01 H16 says that he essentially can't remember when or why the pseudonym Kevin Crossland was ever looked at but it was not in connection with his STS deployment.

01:06:06 Just wait for that paragraph to come up. 76.1.

01:06:25 Oh, thank you. Sorry, I should have given you a page number.

01:06:36 We know that James Thompson's deployment began in June of 1996. And I think he says in the next paragraph that he brought the birth certificate, Kevin's birth certificate with him to the SDS.

01:06:50 In fact, the birth certificate that James Thompson had in his possession was issued on the 9th of July 1991. We don't need to bring up the document, but for those following, that's confirmed in MPS 08669.

01:07:05 08669. That's that B21 of your bundle, sir. So, just to ask you for completeness, Mrs. Crossland, are you aware of anyone from your family requesting Kevin's birth certificate in 1991? No, there was no need for it.

01:07:21 And how do you feel about the idea that H16 obtained Kevin's birth certificate in 1991, 5 years before he even joined the SDS?

01:07:30 the SDS? I keep wondering whether somebody else was using this. Is there any chance that it's been passed around?

01:07:41 it's been passed around? That's what it's made you think? Yes.

01:07:48 We go to paragraph 83 of that statement.

01:08:34 I think the reason why I chose the name of Kevin Crossland was that he had died abroad and the audit trail, should anyone decide to check, would be unlikely to lead to me. That's what HN16 said.

01:08:40 said. How does that make you feel knowing that HN16 was aware of at least the fact that Kevin died abroad?

01:08:52 Kevin died abroad? This what makes me think that there's more people involved. And um

01:09:08 other thing is um is there possibilities that because it was abroad that he thought nobody would check on this.

01:09:16 on this. Um

01:09:23 Um and maybe he had chance to use it abroad easier than in this country.

01:09:32 Those are questions that you have about that.

01:09:37 that. Yes. I I feel very very mixed up about this that I am concerned that uh if he had the birth certificate

01:09:51 uh if he had the birth certificate he can go to any country to embassy and apply for passports. I I am aware of that. Would it be possible? I have so many questions about this man. How has he got away with it?

01:10:11 We do know that uh HN16 carried out various actions without authority from any of his managers or superiors um

01:10:22 any of his managers or superiors um using Kevin's identity which I'm going to ask you about now. Now, there were investigations carried out by HN16's managers towards the end of his deployment, um, specifically by a manager known to the inquiry as HN53. And it's he who revealed that HN16 had been had done

01:10:38 revealed that HN16 had been had done various things with Kevin's identity. These are summarized in document MPS 0748366,

01:10:45 which is at B11 of your bundle, sir. But I will just go through those actions

01:10:56 I will just go through those actions taken and then ask you about them, Miss Crosslin. Now, obviously, we already know that H16 had Kevin's birth certificate. We know that he had applied for a driving license

01:11:10 driving license and um we can see here at paragraph two there's the existence of a provisional photo driving license in the name of Crossland that bore magenta triangle's photo. Magenta triangle is the code name for HN16.

01:11:23 for HN16. Sorry if we just unbold that. Thank you. Um,

01:11:27 Um, and further at paragraph two, it says that the original application form contains these details and we can see Kevin's name

01:11:38 Kevin's name and date of birth etc. and then a sponsor who had to be on the uh application form. And a comment below that is that the entire document including the sponsor details is in the same handwriting which appeared to be

01:11:54 same handwriting which appeared to be identical with HN16's handwriting. And that this driving license application form was submitted with a birth certificate confirming the above details and certified as being issued on the 9th of July 1991. That's how we know when the birth certificate was issued.

01:12:09 the birth certificate was issued. So that's two documents. We know that he in addition made an application to Temp's water for the supply of water to

01:12:21 Temp's water for the supply of water to an address in Souy Road, London sometime after June 2001.

01:12:37 We know that he entered into a contract with BT for a landline telephone at Salfie Road in Kevin's name on the 31st of January, 2002. That's on page two of the document.

01:12:53 We know that he entered into a contract with London Electricity for supply to the Souie Road address from the 28th of January, 2002. That's just at the bottom of the page there. Also in Kevin's name,

01:13:08 we know that he registered Kevin as a resident at that address and paid council tax in his name from at least sometime in 2002.

01:13:19 We know that he registered a mobile phone

01:13:23 phone um in Kevin's name on the 4th of December 2001.

01:13:33 We know that he registered Kevin's name on the Lambbeath Electoral Register at 2 Souy Road in the year 2000. And we also know because um

01:13:44 And we also know because um HN16 says so that he applied for a bank or building society account in Kevin's name, but that that was not granted. Are you able to tell us how it makes you feel to read or hear about the actions

01:13:55 feel to read or hear about the actions H16 took to develop this false identity using Kevin's details? It's unbelievable. How can somebody be like this in a

01:14:08 like this in a SDS whom we are supposed to be rusting? This isn't a person you could trust.

01:14:15 And if they if there are more people like this working in SDS doing these same things,

01:14:22 it's not right for the country.

01:14:32 Are there any of those particular actions I've mentioned there which you find very difficult to talk about? I know in your witness statement you you refer to especially the fact that Kevin was entered onto the electoral register.

01:14:44 was entered onto the electoral register. Tell us why that's you find that so egregious. I find it very very disturbing. I find also that I read about he's been twice

01:14:57 also that I read about he's been twice stopped and he was using Kevin's license under Kevin's name. This is unbelievable. And

01:15:02 And how how would somebody who was normal worker and they were stopped with a wrong ID, what would happen to them?

01:15:22 happen to them? So why did he get away so long and why were we not informed 2002 when he was investigated?

01:15:28 We I would have been much younger maybe able to cope with it better but it has really come a shock for whole family.

01:15:42 Another

01:15:48 issue that you mentioned in your witness statement is the possibility that HM16 may have hired a private investigator to do research into your family. I'm going to ask that we bring up document

01:36:05 A similar scheme was to be used by JS, that's James Straven, and one or two other members of the group at another address. Like so many matters that seemed of no moment at the time any

01:36:20 seemed of no moment at the time any discussion with the office was informal. I was therefore content that although although the name had been given to Surrey and Sussex police on two occasions, no record was held at the SDS when I subsequently decided to further

01:36:31 when I subsequently decided to further establish this alternate identity with a view to traveling under that name post operation.

01:36:38 So firstly, Mrs. Crossen, what was your reaction to hearing that H16 intended to use Kevin's name as his own name when he was being arrested?

01:36:51 It's not not nice feeling. Unbelievable.

01:37:01 And other thing is if any of us was driving and we were stopped with a false ID, what would happen to us?

01:37:09 Those were the first things came to my mind.

01:37:14 In your witness statement, I think you say that you were particularly disturbed by the idea that the name had been given to Surrey and Sussex police. Yes.

01:37:22 Yes. And do you want to tell us why that is? That is because we've been living in Sari all our life and it wouldn't have been very nice for my husband on his last days to find out that his son has

01:37:37 last days to find out that his son has been stopped on the road or someone is using his son's ID.

01:37:45 So the proximity to your family's home particularly

01:37:56 Third reason HN16 gave for creating a false identity using Kevin's information was to facilitate his entry into the United States at the conclusion of his deployment after he'd been forbidden to do so by one of his managers unless accompanied by an SCS detective

01:38:11 accompanied by an SCS detective sergeant. Can we bring up document MPS 0719757?

01:38:16 That's tab D7, sir.

01:38:36 This is a file note dated 19th of March 2002

01:38:41 2002 recording um an interview by DCS Black and DCL with HM16. And we look at the last paragraph on page one which says this.

01:38:53 page one which says this. His application for Crossland's license had been supported by the birth certificate of a person who had died aged three years. Crossland was otherwise in inverted commas no one. He

01:39:05 otherwise in inverted commas no one. He had begun to invent him when I couldn't get back into the states referring to DCell's recent instruction that he must not present himself in the USA as James Straven. that's his cover name and less

01:39:16 Straven. that's his cover name and less accompanied by DS Greeny. The inclusion of Crossland's name on the voters's register at Thompson's um Duff, that's his cover address since 2000 and the

01:39:27 his cover address since 2000 and the motivation for wishing to enter the USA unaccompanied by Detective Sergeant Karini as anyone other than James Thompson were not pursued. Thompson fudged the issue by claiming that the straven identity would be required in the USA for a long time. Um in your

01:39:38 the USA for a long time. Um in your witness statement, Mrs. Crossland. You talk about particularly the use of the phrase Crossland was otherwise no one when you read that in that document. Do you want to tell us how that makes you feel?

01:39:53 feel? It makes me feel that he had no respect for this child at all. Uh Kevin was a person. Kevin was a happy little boy. Unfortunately, he could he didn't have a chance to have his own

01:40:08 didn't have a chance to have his own life. He didn't have a chance to have a own driving license, but somebody had a chance to go and drop it and use it illegally.

01:40:22 it and use it illegally. And this was the police supposed to be a police who is supposed to be protecting the nation and the country.

01:40:27 country. Where was the protection?

01:40:40 It makes me feel very angry, very disappointed and very sad.

01:40:56 Finally, Mrs. Crossland, a fourth reason that HN16 has given for fraudulently creating an identity using Kevin's details is set out in a a first witness

01:41:08 details is set out in a a first witness statement. He he provided to the inquiry responding to some questions set out by the chairman of the inquiry in 2017. This is for the purposes of the restriction order process. Can we bring up document UCPI5035199.

01:41:22 This document is dated the 16th of October 2017 authored by HN16. And as we can see at the top it says IMHN16

01:41:35 the top it says IMHN16 and I will read the second paragraph. So he's responding to questions he's been asked. The first question is in relation to the creation of the pseudonym Kevin Crossland. The operation Hearn report says this was created in approximately March 2002. The creation

01:41:48 approximately March 2002. The creation of this pseudonym was wholly the result of my confused state of mind and the shift in my own sense of identity from that of HN16, the officer, to that of the person created for this deployment

01:42:04 the person created for this deployment that was by then increasingly the only life I had. I had been told that my deployment was to end, which to me translated to an effective death sentence for the person I had become. And the attempt to create a third identity was a half-formed idea for being able to resurrect it post deployment and return to that identity

01:42:21 deployment and return to that identity via a change of name by deedpole or some other equally unlikely route. The plan never matured and the name was never used and no identity to go with the name was ever developed. Now we've looked obviously at the various explanations H16's given

01:42:34 the various explanations H16's given over the years. We know that the birth certificate was in his possession from before he joined the SDS. So

01:42:50 before he joined the SDS. So this was an explanation given in 2017. What what what was your reaction to hearing this explanation? He's using all the excuses trying to cover himself up and he has been able to cover up until now.

01:43:04 cover up until now. Uh it's it's just unbelievable

01:43:15 Uh it's it's just unbelievable that he cannot tell the truth and I wish he would when he comes here to tell the truth.

01:43:22 He himself would feel better as well. I I greatly believe that.

01:43:32 Now there are just two brief topics I want to address. Finally, Mrs. Crossland. Now, we've looked at how the use of Kevin's identity um by HN16 came about.

01:43:48 about. Now, in the opening statement made to the inquiry tranch 2 phase 2 by the Metropolitan Police, um an apology was issued to the families of deceased

01:44:01 issued to the families of deceased children whose identities were used by undercover officers. And you've addressed this in your witness statement. That's UCPI5038207

01:44:06 at paragraph 6, sorry, at page 63,

01:44:20 you talk about um the the apologies and I'm just going to read the text that you have repeated at paragraph 7.2. This was the text of the apology. More generally, the families of deceased

01:44:31 generally, the families of deceased persons are understandably concerned about the justification for and the value of undercover work done in their relatives names. Paragraph eight. The Metropolitan Police Service accepts these concerns and criticisms. The misconduct of UCOs

01:44:44 criticisms. The misconduct of UCOs whilst using the identities of their family members was disrespectful to their memories. The MPS apologizes to all the families for this and for its failure to stop that misconduct from occurring. And this is your emphasis. Reliance was wrongly placed on the

01:44:55 Reliance was wrongly placed on the expectation that this practice would remain secret. Although fortunately the MPS is not aware of any family or any person whose identity was used by the

01:45:09 person whose identity was used by the SDS being traced or contacted, this does not excuse the failure to consider the risk of this occurring. And just turning over the page, paragraph nine, the MPS also wishes to be clear, and

01:45:24 the MPS also wishes to be clear, and this is reference to the tradecraftraft manual, that the cold and derogatory language used in the 1995 STS tradecraftraft manual about the practice of using children's identities was dehumanizing and wholly unprofessional. It should not have been written, nor permitted to remain in any form of

01:45:35 permitted to remain in any form of training manual. Finally, the NPS can assure the families and the public that the SDS stopped using the identities of real persons in the mid 1990s. The practice is not in use in the MPS today

01:45:49 practice is not in use in the MPS today and will never be used by the NPS again. Now, your witness statement um you actually addressed this apology in very helpful detail, Mrs. Crosslin, but I just want to ask you about those two

01:46:02 just want to ask you about those two phrases which you um emphasized in bold in your statement. The first is the phrase reliance was wrongly placed on the expectation that this practice would remain secret. What do you feel about that?

01:46:17 that? I don't think it was secret. Why do you say that?

01:46:26 Well, I think we will discuss this later on some other point. We can discuss it now if you'd like to. Um, my husband

01:46:42 Um, my husband He came one evening home. He was shaking very badly shaking and we were in upstairs in our bedroom. I was sitting by the side of the bed and he was putting his sport jacket into the cupboard.

01:46:52 cupboard. He had been out for a drink and playing darts with the friends who were police.

01:47:04 darts with the friends who were police. And we counted these people trustworthy and nice friends. But he he didn't stop shaking. And I asked him why what's happened? What's

01:47:17 asked him why what's happened? What's happened? And he said I have been told police are using

01:47:30 I children's IDs. And I couldn't understand what he's on about. And then he said, "I just hope that nobody's taking Kevin's ID." And I tried to reassure him and I said,

01:47:41 And I tried to reassure him and I said, "Why would they use Kevin's ID? Kevin is only five years old and he's dead. I couldn't understand at all." And he said, "No, Kevin wouldn't be five now. Kevin would be older." And I counted

01:47:53 Kevin would be older." And I counted quickly in my head how old Kevin would be. I could have done a mistake.

01:48:04 be. I could have done a mistake. But I counted he would be between 15 to 17 years old. So maybe round about 76 778

01:48:06 778 this happened. And

01:48:13 And I calmed him down and I said no they wouldn't take Kevin's name. They wouldn't take Kevin's name and he's far

01:48:25 wouldn't take Kevin's name and he's far too young. And he settled down. We never discussed that again. And this question was given to me 2020 in the radio investigation and I remember that incident

01:48:36 remember that incident and I did mention about it when 2018 but we put it behind because we didn't

01:48:50 but we put it behind because we didn't know much about 16. We didn't know much about how much Kevin's name had been used what had happened. So uh it's come back to my mind that is

01:49:01 uh it's come back to my mind that is there possibility that this name has been taken by someone else who knew my husband and knew his past and then he kept it in the office and

01:49:16 and then he kept it in the office and maybe other people were using and maybe 16 got it from this person. So that you talk about this incident in your second witness statement, Mrs. Cross, which was um submitted to the inquiry just last week.

01:49:30 inquiry just last week. Uh we don't need to bring it up, but I think you said then you think this conversation between you and David

01:49:41 conversation between you and David happened sometime around the late 1970s, so long before any of this came to light.

01:49:41 light. Absolutely.

01:49:56 The second part of the MPS apology that you had highlighted in your witness statement is the part that says, "The MPS can assure the families and the public that the SDS stopped using the identities of real persons in the mid1 1990s. The practice is not in the MPS

01:50:11 1990s. The practice is not in the MPS today and will never be used by the NPS again." Now, as we've talked about throughout your evidence, we know that HN16 was using Kevin's identity in at least 2000 up till 2002, albeit completely without authorization from

01:50:23 completely without authorization from the SDS. But knowing that what you do about when Kevin's identity was being used, how does that make you feel hearing this part of the apology? Well,

01:50:41 Well, it just makes why are they writing these um things up that we stopped them 1990 90s mid9s when it's not true. There are people there were people

01:50:56 There are people there were people carrying on in 2000 still and they were getting away with it. [clears throat]

01:51:01 H16 in his witness statement, the third one, UCPI50 3553

01:51:09 addresses what he did. Paragraph 109, which is at page 42.

01:51:24 He says, "I accept that what I did in creating a false identity using the name Kevin Crossland was wrong and that I should not have done it." And I think then at paragraph 117 which is at page 45

01:51:40 he says this. I did not give any consideration to the impact on Kevin Crossson's family at the time were they to discover that I had used Kevin Crossson's name in the way that I did because I did not believe that they

01:51:54 because I did not believe that they would ever become aware. Now that I know that they are aware, I bitterly regret the hurt caused to them.

01:52:03 Do you have anything you want to say about these comments made by HN16? Mrs. Crossland,

01:52:10 I can't believe that uh whatever age he was number one would have gone without any consideration. and he was thinking about for himself his life trying to

01:52:23 about for himself his life trying to whatever his plans were to do with Kevin Crossland's name and

01:52:27 and I don't really think he knows that he's he regret I don't think he bitterly regrets the hurt he has caused

01:52:51 Finally, Mrs. Crossland, I wanted to ask you something about the longer term impacts of finding out about the use of Kevin's identity by HM16 and how it's affected you and your family. Particularly, you talk in your witness

01:53:04 Particularly, you talk in your witness statement about how it's affected your perception of the police. Is there something you wanted to say about that? I

01:53:10 I I have difficulties rusting. I have lost a lot of rust and we had such a lovely friends in Bali. But I

01:53:24 such a lovely friends in Bali. But I still keep some of them as a friends but I would not trust every word what they talking. I would not invite them to my house.

01:53:35 house. Maybe I would meet them somewhere, but

01:53:36 but I want to keep my distance and I do hope that there will be great

01:53:47 and I do hope that there will be great improvement. And I I still feel that it was 60s,7s, 80s, they had this special way of dealing with things.

01:54:00 special way of dealing with things. And I do hope that the future is going to improve and I try to build up my hope for that. And I think we got a very good leader in police force,

01:54:18 Sir Raingson. I think he's doing his best. Thank you, Mrs. Crossland. Those that's the end of my questions um for you aside from to ask if there's anything else you

01:54:31 from to ask if there's anything else you want to say right now in evidence to the German.

01:54:35 German. I think we have covered everything. Thank you very much. Thank you sir for listening and giving me this chance. Well, thank you for taking it up. Um

01:54:54 Well, thank you for taking it up. Um thank you. You bring to life in a way that no document can the impact of some of these events on real people.

01:55:04 Thank you. Am I to rise for to see if there's there are any rule 10 questions? I'm told there are no rules 10 questions and and no re-examination. So um

01:55:18 So um if that is confirmed then um your time here is complete and I repeat my thanks to you.

01:55:18 to you. Thank you very much sir.

01:55:30 Sir you have enormous task. I know

01:55:31 I know and I wish you well. Well I'm very grateful for that. Thank you.

01:55:35 you. I better leave first and then