Extended afternoon session featuring testimony from witness L3 about their involvement with the Cudden Hunt Saboteurs group and undercover officer HN16 James Thompson (alias James Straven). L3 provides detailed evidence refuting Operation Lime - Thompson's claimed gun procurement plot in France - describing it as a fabricated operation. The witness describes the devastating impact of L4's assault by a hunt supporter, protests that followed, and their relationship with Thompson including a January 2001 trip to France that Thompson reported as a weapons procurement operation but which L3 experienced as a holiday that became complicated when Thompson's Land Rover was allegedly stolen in Marseilles.
00:16:09 Very
00:16:28 sorry I've left my notebook behind. I must go get it. Apologies.
00:17:16 Good afternoon. Uh this part of today's proceedings uh will consist of live evidence from a witness known as L3. Uh the evidence
00:17:29 witness known as L3. Uh the evidence will uh be broadcast but by sound only. There are reporting restriction orders in place. Uh and um in the event that
00:17:43 in place. Uh and um in the event that anyone has any doubt or difficulty about what though that implies um then please uh consult the notices outside or a member of the inquiry staff. Yes. May the witness be sworn please.
00:17:55 I do solemnly I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth
00:18:06 the whole truth the whole truth nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth
00:18:16 yes I will refer to you uh throughout this hearing as L3 because you've been granted anonymity. Uh you provided a signed 24page witness statement to the
00:18:34 signed 24page witness statement to the inquiry dated the 28th of October 2025. So last Tuesday. Is that right? Correct. Yes. Okay. And are the contents of your witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? They are.
00:18:53 They are. L3. That puts the whole of the content of your witness statement into evidence. But today I I want to ask you um first about how you became involved in huntsabbing and in particular your interaction with James Thompson.
00:19:04 interaction with James Thompson. However, my main area of questions today will be around the detail of a trip to France that you made with him in January 2001. And so I'm going to be asking about your account of what happened but
00:19:20 about your account of what happened but also uh your uh response to the account that we have been given by James Thompson. I'll refer you to a number of documents and then at the end of my questioning I would like to ask you
00:19:35 questioning I would like to ask you about the impact that all of this has had on you. May I begin with the early 1990s
00:19:48 with the early 1990s and before all this started, it's right, isn't it, that you were involved in various animal rights campaigns. Yes, that's true. Now, in your statement, you describe uh that your involvement was mainly at a low level. Could you just explain just
00:20:04 low level. Could you just explain just what you mean by that? So what sort of uh activities were you involved in at that point? So the early '9s um [clears throat] very specifically it was targeted towards public outreach events. We did high street stalls. We did leafleting. We did um village fates,
00:20:19 did leafleting. We did um village fates, this kind of thing. Anything in which we could get exposure. We did public meetings. Um it was yes it was public outreach specifically at the start.
00:20:34 outreach specifically at the start. Did there come a point where you also became involved in huntabbing, hunt sabotage?
00:20:37 sabotage? Yes, that's true. Yes. Um, some of the people I was I was conducting the outreach events with were also part of the local huntsab group and I was introduced that way at the time. I think you were living in the Surrey area.
00:20:48 the Surrey area. That's correct. And you were part of the North Downs Huntsab group at that time. Correct. Yes.
00:20:59 One of the campaigns I want to ask you about in the '9s was Shamrock Farm. Could you just tell us please a little about your involvement in relation to that campaign and what it related to?
00:21:13 that campaign and what it related to? Certainly. Um, we you've skipped forward slightly here now. This is this would be late 90s, not not early. I don't know if that's relevant, but um um yes, Shamrock Farm was a fairly notorious uh primate
00:21:24 Farm was a fairly notorious uh primate breeder for animal experiments and was therefore subject of a campaign previous campaign to in an attempt to close it
00:21:35 campaign to in an attempt to close it down. that campaign had failed. Um it was well known uh amongst um animal rights activists as um as a place notorious to us and um a campaign a second campaign um
00:21:54 campaign a second campaign um uh facilitated by different people came into being in the late '9s with a view to closing it. Uh this was located I think in in small dos.
00:22:03 dos. Yes. It's a tiny village just quite quite close to Brighton. Can you help us with bridging the gap then? You've described in your evidence mainly at a low level being involved in hunt sabotage and that Shamrock Farm
00:22:18 hunt sabotage and that Shamrock Farm came later. Can you fill in the gaps in the time period in my own career as it were? Yes. Um there was a there was a period of time during the mid 90s where I left the UK and I worked for
00:22:32 and I worked for uh an animal rights organization abroad which gave me a great deal more experience in running campaigns. Um far more so than just simply tableabling on the high street. Um I gained a little
00:22:46 the high street. Um I gained a little bit of media exposure and I learned how to run a campaign.
00:23:04 There came a point where you met undercover officer HN16 undercover named James Straven who had code name magenta triangle. I will refer to him by his real name James Thompson. Could you help
00:23:18 real name James Thompson. Could you help us with how you first met James Thompson in the context of your uh animal activism work please?
00:23:29 activism work please? Yes. Um I returned to the United Kingdom end of very end of 1997 at which point James Thompson had been on deployment for approximately one year. Um, I moved
00:23:41 for approximately one year. Um, I moved into a house that was being occupied by a friend,
00:23:46 a friend, um, two friends in fact at the time who were
00:23:48 were already aware of and knew James Thompson. They knew him through that local hunt sabotage group. and I was
00:24:05 local hunt sabotage group. and I was introduced that way by returning to that area with people who I knew and returning to Huntsabbing. Um,
00:24:07 Um, I'm going I'm just going to pause you there because we know that James Thompson was deployed between January 1997 and March 2002. [snorts]
00:24:21 [snorts] And I think you said that you'd first met him about a year into his deployment. So 1998 at the beginning of Yes. Um probably very very beginning 98 is best date.
00:24:32 very very beginning 98 is best date. Now you said that you were living with friends. Was one of those friends someone we're referring to um as L1. I think you might have a copy of the cipher list in front of you. Is that right?
00:24:42 right? Correct. Yes. L1.
00:24:58 your brother um has also been given a cipher as L2. So L1 a friend of yours and L2 your
00:25:11 So L1 a friend of yours and L2 your brother. Um at that time did each of them know James Thompson? They did. Yes.
00:25:26 Was your brother also L2 also living in the same communal house? Correct.
00:25:36 Now you refer in your statement, it's at paragraph 2.2 on page five to James Thompson
00:25:41 Thompson visiting that particular uh house.
00:25:46 uh house. Is that how you would have got to know him?
00:25:49 him? It's possible. I think it's probably more likely that we first met out huntabbing, but I would accept it's
00:26:05 out huntabbing, but I would accept it's entirely possible that it also happened at the at the house. Um, yeah, possible.
00:26:16 when he uh came round to the house, how did the relationship between you and him develop? How did you get on?
00:26:27 develop? How did you get on? Well, if you take my first assumption that I think we probably met outside protesting the hunt, um then at the point at which he would have come to the house, we'd already been acquainted. So it would have been as
00:26:38 acquainted. So it would have been as part of a friendship at this point. He was already very much a part of that SAB group and if anything I was the new boy.
00:26:57 group and if anything I was the new boy. Um but I came with some credence because L1 and L2 were already very much a part of it and would have introduced me. So that would have given me some kind of grandfather's rights as it were. Um so I think that sort of a friendship would always have been on the cards there. Um,
00:27:10 there. Um, and certainly to answer your question, that's how he'd have been received at the house.
00:27:21 the house. Now, in terms of this friendship group, your brother L2, L1, but also I want to ask you about someone else, L4, was he also in this U group?
00:27:36 was he also in this U group? He was. Yes. And like uh you uh L1 and L2 was he also involved in the same sort of activity uh hunt sabbing? He was.
00:27:36 He was. Okay.
00:27:49 At that time and you indicate this in your uh statements L4 not living in that communal house but he lived about 10 miles away. Local. Yes, that's right.
00:28:06 Would you agree that a friendship developed between you and James Thompson?
00:28:07 Thompson? I would. Yes. And the that friendship was that similar from what you could see uh to the
00:28:18 from what you could see uh to the friendship that he had with L1, L2, and also L4?
00:28:22 also L4? I would. Yes. I would accept that. Yeah. Could
00:28:33 you give us an indication as to how often you would all go out together at hunt sabbing please? And at that time it would have been at least weekly possibly on certain weeks it would have been twice weekly often regular.
00:28:54 Is that all all of you in the sense of you, your brother L2, L1, L4, and James Thompson?
00:28:55 Thompson? Correct. Yes. We have heard in this inquiry descriptions of hunt [snorts] sabbing,
00:29:08 descriptions of hunt [snorts] sabbing, hunt sabotage, but could you explain to us in your own words what you mean by that, please?
00:29:19 that, please? Yes. Um it's uh a process by which we wish to disrupt the process in which hounds catch foxes by mimicking the actions of the huntsmen and thereby fooling the hounds into believing our commands and not theirs.
00:29:36 I'm going to ask you in particular about um some equipment that was provided uh to the group by James Thompson you refer to at paragraph 2.6 in your statement.
00:29:47 to at paragraph 2.6 in your statement. It's night vision equipment. Could you explain how this came about please? Yeah. Can I this piece of equipment it was specifically given to
00:29:58 it was specifically given to those of us that were living at the house so L's one two and three rather than the group as a whole um
00:30:09 um whether that was the intention or not but I do remember it being given to us at that address as opposed to a more group environment. Um
00:30:21 Um it was quite sophisticated piece of equipment for the time. Uh it certainly wasn't something you'd have been able to buy. Um it was a battery operated um
00:30:34 um device that illuminated the view in front of you to uh
00:30:40 uh one degree. It wasn't binocular is what I mean. You'd see it in normal vision. Um and it illuminated the environment in front of you quite quite quite well. Did you ever use it? I did. So, yeah. What did you use it for?
00:31:00 What did you use it for? Um, initially it was used quite simply for wildlife watching. The um the garden at the back of L4's house um had a large badger set running around
00:31:14 um had a large badger set running around the back of it and he would take many of us to come and watch the badges. Um, and this piece of equipment was was excellent for that purpose. That was how it was used initially and later
00:31:22 and later in order for us to gain our own information in what was an increasingly difficult environment to obtain information on the hunt.
00:31:39 information on the hunt. Uh I used that equipment in my own intelligence gathering. Could you expand on that? When you information intelligence gathering, what are we talking about?
00:31:50 are we talking about? Well, you have to put this in the context of where where we were in the late 90s that fox hunts up and down the country were being sabotaged and process protested, sorry, um by many different groups and there they they were hugely
00:32:06 groups and there they they were hugely paranoid about about this. Um and they went to great lengths to hide their activities um especially those in and around the home counties. um and therefore simply obtaining
00:32:19 and therefore simply obtaining information as to where they might be became more and more difficult and we had to devise strategies in which we would obtain that information as it was
00:32:30 would obtain that information as it was not available in any other way and some of the tactics we used were to move away from watching the hunt kennels because that was far too obvious a place and they would know we were
00:32:51 a place and they would know we were there. Um and we became aware that we could follow individual members of the hunt itself into an area we believed likely that they would be hunting in by positioning ourselves on
00:33:06 ourselves on large roads a roads um and watching out for the vehicle to come past us um and then following it to the meat. Now, at certain times in the year, it's still very, very dark, and it would be very
00:33:17 very, very dark, and it would be very easy to miss your target, and so this night vision equipment was very useful.
00:33:33 night vision equipment was very useful. We have up on screen, it's paragraph 2.6 in your statement, and I I just want to ask you about the wording that you've used. James Thompson also provided us with night vision equipment at the time. This was quite sophisticated, not something that could easily be bought. We used it to wildlife watch. And then
00:33:50 We used it to wildlife watch. And then you say this, the suggestion from him, although it wasn't said overtly, was that it might facilitate anything else
00:34:02 that it might facilitate anything else we might want to do, I took this to mean committing a criminal act. Now, yes,
00:34:05 yes, what you have set out there is that he didn't explicitly say here is this equipment for committing a criminal act, but you took it to mean that. Could you explain why you took it in that way?
00:34:16 explain why you took it in that way? Yes, you're correct that I mean there was no overt assumption that well here you could make use of this and get up to all sorts. It was it wasn't put to us that way. It was more you might find this useful. Look, look
00:34:27 you might find this useful. Look, look what I've got. Look, look, it was quite obvious that we didn't have the capacity to obtain this level of equipment. And so perhaps as a way
00:34:38 so perhaps as a way to
00:34:42 to provide himself with some kudos, he provided us with the equipment. Or perhaps it was indeed meant for us to facilitate even further acts um that that might enable us to be able to do
00:34:53 that might enable us to be able to do that we weren't able to do beforehand. It was it was very open-ended as to what what we were supposed to be doing with this equipment. He just provided it and
00:35:06 this equipment. He just provided it and sort of would you like to have a go with this sort of thing. And now in at the end of the next paragraph in your statement uh you say that you didn't use the equipment for anything unlawful. No, I mean not to my knowledge. I mean it's
00:35:17 not to my knowledge. I mean it's possible unwittingly I I don't mean to be facitious but if I committed a road traffic act I violation I don't know about it but um we used that equipment
00:35:30 about it but um we used that equipment for the reason I've explained to you and I don't know that to be a crime not with the benefit of hindsight but at the time when James Thompson provided
00:35:45 the time when James Thompson provided this equipment what was your reaction to him providing night vision equipment to you at that. Well, I'm I'm quite sure that I probably asked some questions, although I I I don't recall from memory specifically, but I'm quite sure I'd have asked him
00:35:59 but I'm quite sure I'd have asked him where he got it from because, as I've mentioned, it's it really wasn't the sort of thing that was available on the high street. Um, I imagine he came up with with some excuses to how he
00:36:10 with with some excuses to how he obtained it, but yeah, my reaction would have been, well, this is a novelty. Um, it's a sort of new toy. I'll definitely uh I'll definitely put it to some use.
00:36:23 uh I'll definitely put it to some use. What do you remember him saying to you about his background at the time? Um,
00:36:27 Um, oh, right. Well, um, his background at the time, um, he hailed from Scotland. Um, I don't remember exactly where. I'm
00:36:46 Um, I don't remember exactly where. I'm not sure I was ever told. He was working for um a film company. That was um that was his work basis. Um it allowed him enormous flexibility. His specific job role was as a locations finder.
00:37:00 finder. So his work pattern was entirely his to dictate. So he had flexibility. Um,
00:37:02 Um, he mentioned uh an ex-wife and children. I'm not sure of their ages. Um, but not adult children.
00:37:14 children. Um,
00:37:19 Um, he saw them irregularly. They did not live with him and he lived so he told us in
00:37:30 and he lived so he told us in a small flat in the oval area of London. Now something that the inquiry be looking into is to how much time James Thompson
00:37:41 Thompson spent in his undercover role. Yes.
00:37:47 Yes. Um as opposed to for example uh in the uh film business. You referred to hunt sabbing about once a week. Could you give us an idea about how often you saw James Thompson? Was he did you see him every day or just very occasionally?
00:37:59 every day or just very occasionally? Could you just help us with the timings, please?
00:38:02 please? Yes, at at this point, the sort of very late 90s 2000 certainly weekly and then the occasional dropins to the house. And
00:38:13 the occasional dropins to the house. And it's entirely possible that in fact it's not entirely possible. I know that he he would participate in
00:38:24 would participate in um the odd demonstration. You mentioned Shamrock Farm previously. He was at those demonstrations. Um and they would not have coincided on a day that we would have been hunting. So that's in addition.
00:38:35 addition. But um it's difficult to put an average on it. Um but he was a he was a regular visitor to us at that time.
00:38:50 visitor to us at that time. When he visited, did he uh travel to your address in uh his Land Rover Discovery? Yes, he did. Yeah. And did you ever go yourself in that vehicle?
00:38:55 vehicle? Yes, many times. Yeah. And what were those circumstances broadly?
00:39:00 broadly? Oh. Um, sometimes it would be simply just providing a lift to an event we were going to. Um, possibly a lift back up to
00:39:15 possibly a lift back up to uh, oh, let me think. Sorry, I'm not putting this very well. Um, after an event
00:39:23 event such as a Saturday hunt sabbing event, we would quite often have a bit of a social afterwards, which meant a drink in a local pub. he would convey people to it in the vehicle
00:39:37 to it in the vehicle um if if it had been brought. Sometimes he was sometimes he was in the back of the what we used to call the SAB van. Sometimes he drove himself and parked nearby. Sometimes sometimes not. It's it's difficult to be precise, but yes, I would have been in that vehicle many times.
00:39:50 times. You've described in your statements uh a time when he offered to you and your brother if you wanted to use the Land Rover,
00:39:58 Rover, right? Yes. in in addition to the night vision equipment. So the the vehicle was left with us on occasions when he went traveling as our our address at that time was was
00:40:14 our our address at that time was was quite proximal to um a big transport hub and um that was of use to him. So um yes, he would leave the vehicle with us. Um but the keys would be retained by us, not him. And the assertion given to us
00:40:30 not him. And the assertion given to us was that we could use the vehicle if we wish to.
00:40:35 wish to. Did that at the time stand out in any way? We've talked about the night vision equipment, but the fact that he had Land Rover Discovery, did that attract any attention?
00:40:48 did that attract any attention? Well, a little bit. Um it it wasn't the sort of vehicle that anybody else we knew had. Um I I think he was aware of the fact that it was it was a slightly better make and model of vehicle than might be expected, but he put it down to the fact that he
00:41:01 but he put it down to the fact that he had to have something of that nature for his location finding. Um now you mentioned location finding. You've told us that he described to you uh his job in the film business. How
00:41:15 uh his job in the film business. How often was this a topic of conversation? How often did he talk about uh that work with me? Not not often. But then I probably wouldn't have questioned him
00:41:33 probably wouldn't have questioned him too much on it. It seemed to be accepted by most people that that's what he did. rarely I would say once once once the initial conversation was had and it was established oh that's what you do okay
00:41:44 established oh that's what you do okay and um being the film world I think we just assumed that you know there was some money there that wouldn't necessarily be aware to us and that would explain the nice vehicle that he drove
00:41:59 the nice vehicle that he drove I want to ask you a few more questions about the Cud and Hunt sabotur group would You have described yourself as a core member of the group. Yes. Yes.
00:42:11 Yes. Yes. Who who were the core members of the Cuden Hunt sabotur group? Right. Let me let me be careful now because I don't think everybody has been given
00:42:27 given I I I will ask you this in in another way perhaps. You've said that you were a core member. Your brother L2 correct?
00:42:28 correct? L1
00:42:29 L1 correct?
00:42:30 correct? L4.
00:42:34 L4. Yes, he was within the core. Yes, at the time.
00:42:35 time. James Thompson. Yes. In so much as he was very regular and could be depended on to be there,
00:42:47 and could be depended on to be there, but not so much in terms of perhaps the planning.
00:42:54 Another member of the group was Wendy. And Wendy's name is on your cipher list. Yes.
00:43:01 Yes. How would you have described Wendy? Yes, that it's fair to um it's fair to treat her as a as as having been a core member of the group. Yes.
00:43:18 member of the group. Yes. Could you tell us what your relationship with Wendy was uh then please? Uh
00:43:21 Uh friends. Um she was as we've as we've accepted um core member of the group. So we got to know each other well. She was regularly there. friends.
00:43:32 friends. Would you describe her as a close friend?
00:43:38 friend? Um, perhaps not in those early days, but um because of the length of time that she and I stayed with the group. Yes. I would say eventually friendship became quite close. Yes.
00:43:50 quite close. Yes. And right up to today, would you class Wendy as a friend today?
00:44:02 Wendy as a friend today? Yes. I I'm I I my opinion and impression of Wendy is that she's one of the finest human beings I've ever met. So yes, I most certainly would count her as a friend.
00:44:12 friend. Why do you describe her in those terms? She's honest, trustworthy, dependable, wants to do the right thing, wouldn't cross you. She's just a very decent human being. How active was she at the time in the group? You've described who the core members were, but Wendy, how active was she compared to say you? on an equal level I would say
00:44:30 on an equal level I would say at that time it is it right that the only other female member of the SAB group was Sara referring you to your
00:44:41 group was Sara referring you to your um to the best of my recollection yes um yes the she was I can't picture in my mind people came and went from this from this and any other sab group nobody sort of signed a dotted So, I'm afraid
00:44:54 of signed a dotted So, I'm afraid occasionally you you'd have people who who who'd come along now and again or people who came and found it wasn't for them. But I I think in terms of what
00:45:05 them. But I I think in terms of what you're asking me, yes, Sara was the only other female in the group.
00:45:17 One of the things that you describe is at paragraph 2.12 in your statement on page seven is you say that James Thompson accompanied you on several
00:45:28 Thompson accompanied you on several occasions uh to the actions and you said he took an active role in finding and destroying badger traps as did I. Could you just explain to those who are unfamiliar with what Badger Trap looks
00:45:43 unfamiliar with what Badger Trap looks like and what you did to destroy it and your involvement and Thompson's involvement, please? Yes, that campaign was generated by uh a government initiative to eradicate badgers because of a concern of TB amongst cattle. Um
00:46:00 amongst cattle. Um the argument was highly contested um and that in fact the transmission may have been in in reverse. But um nonetheless, the government went ahead with their plan at that time and there was large scale actions against it, particularly
00:46:13 scale actions against it, particularly in the southwest of England where badger traps were being uh laid to um catch live badges in a oh a device somewhat similar in
00:46:27 similar in size to this table I'm sat behind. Um and to a depth of maybe 18 in. It's quite a sizable heavy steel
00:46:38 18 in. It's quite a sizable heavy steel constructed cage in which it was baited with um food stuff to attract the animal. The the animal would uh uh would take the food stuffs and it would
00:46:50 take the food stuffs and it would release a spring-loaded trap which would close the door behind um trapping the animal inside. So you and James Thompson took part on occasion
00:47:00 occasion in the action of destroying these traps. How did you do that? Yes, we we visited um the area and um essentially the the the desire was to
00:47:13 essentially the the the desire was to release live badges from from traps, but uh actually we very seldom sat found um badges in the traps. Um but we found the traps themselves quite easily and um
00:47:31 the traps themselves quite easily and um yes, they were they were destroyed by us when we found them. um took quite a bit of effort. They're they're quite solid as I've as I've just explained. Um uh you could squash them if you stood on them and bounced up and down or you could find an object with which to to
00:47:46 could find an object with which to to damage them. So So to render the um the space in which the animal would enter the trap so small that it could no longer enter. A bit like squashing a tin can before you recycle it. You follow me? Now you have described and the reasons for uh destroying badger traps
00:48:02 reasons for uh destroying badger traps with James Thompson. Could you help us with what other uh actions that you witness James Thompson doing that would have involved breaking the law? So technically criminal damage breaking the
00:48:14 technically criminal damage breaking the badger traps. But could you just help us with other criminal activity that you yourself saw James Thompson do during this period of time? Yes. In in all honesty, I I can't give you another example
00:48:26 you another example beyond the badger traps of a similar nature that um the I'm struggling to to bring forward an example of when other
00:48:46 say hunt related property was was damaged such as feeasant rearing pens or or or hunting towers. um he would have been present when such action was taken but
00:48:58 action was taken but I can't tell you that I actually saw him do it. I I have a very vivid re recollection of him being there on at least one occasion where we destroyed badger traps.
00:49:21 badger traps. You refer to a hunting tower. What what is that? Um it's an elevated platform um in which uh someone with a rifle can um have a large field of view in order to shoot deer.
00:49:27 I'm going to move on shortly to asking you about a report relating to a confrontation between Hunt saboturs and Huntsman.
00:49:37 Huntsman. Okay. In relation to that broad question that I asked you about in terms of whether you witnessed James Thompson do anything that broke the law,
00:49:50 anything that broke the law, could you help us with how often there was a confrontation between the Hunt Saboturs and the Huntsman Terry Men? You'll um you'll remember I
00:50:02 Men? You'll um you'll remember I mentioned how difficult it was to gain information on them because of their rather paranoid state. And um um this goes hand in hand with the fact that the hunts became increasingly violent as the 1990s went on. By the end of the '90s,
00:50:17 1990s went on. By the end of the '90s, it was at an unprecedented level. And um quite frankly, we could expect the possibility of of an attack on any given day that we were out with them.
00:50:31 You described during hunt season going out hunt sabbing weekly. Could you give us an idea of how often what proportion of those meets that ended up in a physical confrontation?
00:50:46 physical confrontation? Yes, Saturdays were always more more at risk of that than midweek because it attracted more people. Um but at that time um
00:50:57 time um every other week there there may well have been
00:51:01 have been something to at some level at some degree um somebody got hurt. Could you help us with who instigated the violence? Was it both sides? Was it
00:51:15 the violence? Was it both sides? Was it one side? What's your recollection? No, it was it was it it was undoubtedly on on the hunt side towards us. They they they saw us as an an endless thorn in their side and eventually it got to them
00:51:33 their side and eventually it got to them so much um that that they would take any opportunity in which to to stop us from doing what we were doing. And the quickest way to do that is to hit us. And um
00:51:40 And um that happened on a very regular occasion. Sometimes with the approval of the hunt staff and sometimes not. Um sometimes they would try to distance themselves from it and sometimes they quite literally led the charge.
00:51:57 quite literally led the charge. How equally balanced were numbers? So could you help us with when you're engaged in hunt sabbing at that time? How many people in the Cudon hunt saboturs were there and how many huntsmen and terrier men were there?
00:52:18 huntsmen and terrier men were there? Um we would have always been vastly outnumbered. Um our numbers um at best um on a Saturday would have probably been
00:52:23 been at our height 20 to 30 and on a Saturday the hunt itself um well if you include all supporters and all of the riders and all of the sort of hangers on there there could be a couple of hundred of them.
00:52:38 them. You refer to being hit with fists. Yes, with fists. But um yeah, it was also whatever they they had to hand the um the members of what they call the field, which is the riders, they they
00:52:55 field, which is the riders, they they would use their their crops, bone handle crops, and the terrier men, of course, had any number of tools on their vehicles,
00:52:56 vehicles, shovels, spades, spikes, you name it. All of which they used in attempt to um dig out and kill the fox. But it could also be employed to attack us with.
00:53:11 also be employed to attack us with. What about the Cudden Hunt saboturs? Did Did you ever have any weapons? We never brought weapons with us. That would have been counterproductive. It would have been stupid of us to do so even if we'd wanted to. The vehicle was regularly searched by the police and
00:53:25 regularly searched by the police and those would have been confiscated and doubtless us arrested. So, no, we did not bring weapons to the to to our hunt sabs. Um, I won't deny that there's in it's entirely possible that in an
00:53:38 it's entirely possible that in an attempt to defend ourselves that we picked up whatever we found on the ground near us. I'm not saying that we didn't pick up a stick when we needed to. I'm sure that we did. When you describe that, does that include James Thompson's actions?
00:53:54 include James Thompson's actions? Yes, it would. He would have been very much a part of that. He He would have been very much a part of that. So, involved in the violence, but the way you described it is in self-defense. Yes, it was in self-defense. Um,
00:54:06 Yes, it was in self-defense. Um, but all of us, I mean, you don't generally get um a choice in the matter, it's uh uh you you're forced to defend yourself and and he would have done so with the rest of us.
00:54:21 with the rest of us. The way in which you've just described it with the rest of us, could you help us with to what extent he was say on the front line of violence or whether he held back? Could you just give us an
00:54:34 held back? Could you just give us an idea of how involved he was or whether his involvement stood out in any way?
00:54:45 his involvement stood out in any way? Um, I mean, none of us would have been instigators. Um, because again, it it would be counterproductive for us to begin something that otherwise wouldn't necessarily have happened. But in terms of then having to rally round and defend ourselves, yes, at that point when
00:55:00 ourselves, yes, at that point when there's little or no choice, he would have been a very enthusiastic participant. [clears throat]
00:55:12 I'd like to turn now to a particular report that James Thompson produced. So it is at your tab B5. It is MPS treble 3867. We're just going to put that on screen then ask you some questions about it.
00:55:34 Now this is as with the documents that I'm referring you to today something that you have been uh provided uh with by the inquiry in advance of today. Yes, correct.
00:55:46 correct. Okay. So if we have a look at it, it's u we can see in the middle it says intelligence magenta triangle that we know is James Thompson's code name. And then we can see the date of the report,
00:55:59 then we can see the date of the report, 1st of September 2000. Not only the date that the report was typed up, but the date the information was obtained from
00:56:12 date the information was obtained from the source, i.e. James Thompson. Now we can see the title is L4's name. Then it says this, L4 was seriously injured this morning when a Land Rover belonging to the Surrey and Burto Hunt ran him over during a
00:56:25 Burto Hunt ran him over during a confrontation between Hunt supporters and Hunt saboturs. Others present at the event included L2 Privacy and Privacy from Liverpool. Not surprisingly, there is a great anger
00:56:42 surprisingly, there is a great anger amongst the Savves at this incident as it was felt to be a deliberate act. There has been immediate talk of reprisals, but no definite plan has yet been formulated. Now, in your statement, it's at
00:56:53 Now, in your statement, it's at paragraph 3.3. We didn't turn up the statement. Can we just leave the report on the screen? Uh, you have said that you weren't in fact present on this day. Is that is that right? It is. Yes. I wasn't present. No.
00:57:12 When did you first hear about what is reported in this report? Uh very quickly after the event, very quickly.
00:57:25 Uh what were you told about the event and by whom? Um yes, by whom is a bit difficult um to remember but I was told of the circumstances in which L4
00:57:44 of the circumstances in which L4 had been assaulted and that he had been airlifted to trauma center and he um
00:57:46 um we later discovered I didn't know at that precise moment but he was he was then placed on life support machine. You said you were told the circumstances in
00:57:57 said you were told the circumstances in which he was injured. What circumstances were those that you were told?
00:58:08 were those that you were told? Um, a vehicle had entered the field that the small number of SABs had gone into. This is a weekday, not a Saturday. Um, and the vehicle had pursued them across an open field. And
00:58:26 And um it appears that L4 had been slightly separated from the others and had been run down by the vehicle.
00:58:37 Whose vehicle did you understand it to be at the time? Not necessarily a particular individual or where it came from. Yes. At the at the time I knew nothing more about the vehicle other
00:58:49 nothing more about the vehicle other than it was associated to the hunt in some way. It was either that it was either a vehicle owned by a supporter or possibly the land owner. Now I'm going to ask that that report remain on screen, but I want to just
00:59:02 remain on screen, but I want to just refer you to something you've said in your statement. It's paragraph 3.3. You say, "Uh, I do remember going to the hospital that evening to see him."
00:59:16 hospital that evening to see him." Referring to L4. L4's partner was in the hospital with him, and he was on a life support machine. At the time, it looked absolutely dreadful. I'd never seen
00:59:29 absolutely dreadful. I'd never seen anything like it. I was in total shock. At this point, it was touchandgo as to whether L4 would live or or or not. Indeed. Do you have a clear recollection of visiting L4 in hospital? Yes, sir. Definitely.
00:59:51 The report that we have on screen ends with
00:59:56 with the sentence there has been immediate talk of reprisals but no definite plan has yet been formulated. So just at that particular time so you
01:00:15 So just at that particular time so you were not present but you were during the incident but you were present at the hospital. Um there must have been a significant anger. No, my abiding memory of that event was just
01:00:29 just I think it just simply washing over you just how serious it it had become that um that L4 was anything but out of the woods. I mean, he wasn't conscious at this point in in the bed. He wasn't aware of who we were. It was that it was it was that
01:00:42 were. It was that it was it was that serious for him. And I it's just the prevailing mood that evening was was just one of shock and horror at what had happened
01:00:53 shock and horror at what had happened that I mean you'll bear in mind that had L4 succumbed to his injuries he would have been the third Hunt Sabater to have died and I think that was what was foremost in people's minds. It was just like, oh, oh my god, here we go again.
01:01:09 like, oh, oh my god, here we go again. Or there, but for the grace of God could have gone eye. But um at that moment, absolutely no talk of reprisals at all. It was completely the opposite. And and in any case, that
01:01:22 in any case, that um L4's partner was present. Um she was not a member of our SAB group and it would have been wholly inappropriate for anybody to have wanted to talk like that, but it just wasn't it just wasn't what was on people's minds. They were they people were just
01:01:36 They were they people were just completely deflated by what what they saw.
01:01:42 saw. What was the reaction towards um L4 from the Hunt community and the wider community as a result of this that you recall?
01:01:47 recall? Yes. Well, um uh they were completely dismissive of it and um rallied round in an attempt initially to support the driver
01:02:04 initially to support the driver until um it became apparent that support for him was untenable. Um but um there was no attempt at contrition on their part. Um quite the opposite. They um they were very
01:02:16 opposite. They um they were very indifferent and callous about about it.
01:02:24 the following day. Yes,
01:02:36 Yes, you've described a paragraph three uh point. 10 in your statement that the next day, so the 2nd of September 2000,
01:02:38 2000, there was a protest at the Kennels and you've said that which culminated in a number of arrests in the following
01:02:51 a number of arrests in the following days and possibly weeks. I'd like to ask you some questions about that, please. Uh in doing so
01:03:02 so could you uh explain to me whether uh you were involved in this protest at all?
01:03:03 all? Yes, I was present. Help us with the number of people attending uh the protest please.
01:03:14 attending uh the protest please. Yes, I think I think there it was felt that um
01:03:18 that um we needed to express the fact of how horrified we were and just how serious the events had been the previous day and it was felt that
01:03:30 it was felt that um we shouldn't just allow events to to run and for it to appear as though we were not concerned. So very
01:03:45 though we were not concerned. So very quickly um a a protest was arranged at the Hunt kennels um
01:03:57 um that evening to make our protest about what they had done to L4. Um and by this stage um I imagine word had got round the great vine quite
01:04:08 word had got round the great vine quite considerably because people were showing um
01:04:17 um uh showing the fact that they would like to um participate and support us and support
01:04:21 support L4 by coming along themselves from quite far a field. You you describe in your statement as the group who went to the kennels as made up of men and women of all ages.
01:04:33 made up of men and women of all ages. Yes. And and it should be expressed that there were there were many people who were completely horrified by it. There were not not necessarily all of whom were protesters, not necessarily all of whom would have been huntabs. Um there
01:04:49 whom would have been huntabs. Um there were indeed people of all ages and from um all sympathetic backgrounds there that day.
01:04:52 that day. In terms of who went, you described how you attended the protest. Did Did your brother L2 attend? L2 was present. Yes.
01:05:05 L2 was present. Yes. Uh your friend L1, was he there? Yes.
01:05:06 Yes. What about James Thompson? No, James Thompson was not present that day.
01:05:14 day. Had he attended the hospital the previous
01:05:16 previous day?
01:05:18 day? I'm
01:05:21 I'm I struggle to be able to give you an exact memory for that. It's the best of my recollection he did attend, but whether that was at exactly the same time I got there, I cannot be sure.
01:05:41 time I got there, I cannot be sure. So, at the time, as far as you were aware, James Thompson was a core member of the Cuden Hunt saboturs. Correct.
01:05:42 Correct. He was, as you were, a friend of L4. Correct. L4 had been extremely badly injured the day before. Absolutely.
01:05:55 Absolutely. Were you surprised that he didn't attend the protest the following day, the 2nd of September? That's putting it quite mildly, sir. Yes. Uh this was an unprecedented event, not just for our group, but for years. Um the fact that people from far and of
01:06:16 Um the fact that people from far and of far and wide were were coming along and wanting to show their sympathies, it seemed
01:06:19 it seemed more than just out of the ordinary that James Thompson was not present that day. And
01:06:27 And I can quite honestly tell you in in hindsight now that whatever he was thinking, he did more to damage his own deployment by not being there that day than he could have realized because he
01:06:41 than he could have realized because he stuck out like a sore thumb. We expected L4 to die at that point. And for for him to not be there, it was
01:06:58 some time ago now. But do you remember challenging him afterwards in any way, asking him, "Well, where were you?" There was no question that he was challenged about it. I I can't bring to
01:07:09 challenged about it. I I can't bring to to recall the exact instances of it, but Thompson always had a good excuse for everything. And I'm no doubt whatsoever he provided some excuse relating either to his children or to work or something else that simply
01:07:23 or to work or something else that simply wasn't believed there. There were people who who who came to that that evening's protest who took the day off work. They they they simply took the afternoon off and it it was seen as that serious. People people understood
01:07:41 People people understood just what an important event had just occurred and how horrific it was and they made an effort to be there no matter what. And therefore him not being there stood out enormously.
01:07:55 out enormously. We have up on screen um page eight of your statement and we we can see it paragraph 3.12. You describe that when you got to the kennels that a leading figure in the
01:08:09 kennels that a leading figure in the hunt came out with another hunt servant and they had weapons. Could you help us with the type of weapons that you can recall? What what are we referring to here?
01:08:22 are we referring to here? Yes, the the the the the track that leads up to the um courtyard in which the kennels are located uh is a working environment. So there was all sorts of things to hand. I remember the two
01:08:34 things to hand. I remember the two principal members of the hunt that were there to meet us. One of them had a great big riding crop, bone handled riding crop in his hand. The other one had what looked like a spade in his hands.
01:08:45 hands. Now you say there was an incident. The main point is that that was it. That was the response. The group who went to the kennels was made up of men and women of all ages. A leading figure of this fox
01:08:57 all ages. A leading figure of this fox hunt was known to some of the Sabs and he had convictions for violence. Now you say in this paragraph there was an incident but in fact earlier in paragraph 310 you say that the protest
01:09:18 paragraph 310 you say that the protest culminated in a number of arrests in the following days and possibly weeks. So I would just like to ask you some more details about what what happened because we have the protest
01:09:32 we have the protest the hunt uh individuals coming out with weapons. You say there was an incident and then later there were a number of arrests. Could you please fill in the gaps? So
01:09:36 gaps? So yes,
01:09:39 yes, there you were with others uh protesting. Yes. Could you just take us through what happened?
01:09:42 happened? Yes.
01:09:45 Yes. So the geography of the location is that the the hunt kennels are set back from a main a road. There is a track that leads
01:09:56 main a road. There is a track that leads up from the A- road to the kennels. It's probably a couple hundred meters at most. It's not possible to drive up there because there's no turning space, at least not beyond uh a gate. So, the
01:10:07 at least not beyond uh a gate. So, the vehicles that were used to transport us to this area stopped on the A- road and people got out and walked up the track. I was not in the lead
01:10:26 I was not in the lead of the procession up to the to the um to the end of the track where the kennels are. I was probably somewhere in the middle. But I do remember hearing even before I got to
01:10:38 where you could see the kennels. There there's a gate effectively. It's it's a sort of the point at which the track ends is a sort of five bar gate. Uh I remember even before I got to that point, there were
01:10:56 cries from those who had reached that point before me to indicate that something was already taking place.
01:11:08 something was already taking place. So this is 2nd of September. Y was it at this stage that you're describing, was it was it getting dark? Um
01:11:20 Um close. I mean it's early September. It's still pretty light. Um, it wasn't a it was an overcast day as I remember. It wasn't particularly bright, but no, daylight was still apparent. Yeah. So, you could hear cries ahead. What do you remember next? Um,
01:11:26 Um, I what I remember is is thinking, "Oh, oh my god." All it started already that and I went running to the front to see
01:11:39 and I went running to the front to see what was happening. And uh by the time I reached
01:11:40 reached the point at which these cries were coming from, it was apparent that people were being attacked. Who was attacking who?
01:11:52 Who was attacking who? The two members of the hunt that I already mentioned had begun laying into the forward protesters. Now you refer to
01:12:05 Now you refer to this culminating in a number of arrests in the following days and possibly weeks.
01:12:06 weeks. Who was arrested? Huntsman, the Hunts Sabotur group. Could you help us with that?
01:12:17 us with that? No, I mean this this protest then ended almost as quickly as it had begun because of the attack. Um and uh people were therefore subsequently arrested, but the people arrested were the protesters.
01:12:30 protesters. No member of the hunt was arrested for this event at all. In broad terms, were people injured? Yes, I they were injured. Um, not severely. Um, it's very difficult to
01:12:44 severely. Um, it's very difficult to remember who or to what extent. Um, but I do know that yeah, people had been hit and and were injured. Yes, that's correct.
01:12:58 correct. What would you say to a suggestion that this in itself was a revenge attack by the Cud and Hunt saboturs going to where it all happened the previous day and it ending in violence. If characterized in
01:13:12 ending in violence. If characterized in that way, what would your reaction be to that such a description? No, I I would refute that. If our if our intention had been had been to to gain some sort of violent revenge there there were many ways in which we could have
01:13:24 were many ways in which we could have done that and and certainly not going up to the the hunt kennels that that that that would have backfired. And no, our intention was to let them know very quickly and in no no uncertain terms that what had happened to L4 was
01:13:36 that what had happened to L4 was completely unacceptable and and we weren't going to just pretend it hadn't happened. We wanted them to know how upset we were and that was the intention. Um
01:13:48 intention. Um before we even got a chance to to hold that protest though as I say people were already attacked and the protest
01:13:59 already attacked and the protest degenerated. Now, one more question I want to ask you before we break for lunch is that in paragraph 3.12
01:14:07 referring to this incident. You can see in the middle you say that was the response because I've been not asking you questions about
01:14:20 you questions about well there's any discussion about revenge attacks and you say that was the response. Could you just describe to us exactly what you meant by using that sentence in your statement? Yes, of course. It's I mean this is a little over 24 hours since the incident had occurred that there were no other plans there. There hadd been no as we've
01:14:36 plans there. There hadd been no as we've already discussed there had been no talk of reprisals at at the bedside. There'd been nothing. The the only thing we could do to show our contempt as to what had happened was to arrange this protest. There were no other plans and
01:14:47 protest. There were no other plans and there was nothing else we could really do. there was there was no other way for us to express ourselves than than this action and um the intention was to have
01:14:58 action and um the intention was to have been to have had our protest and and and register that complaint and and that would have been it but um yeah we we didn't even get a chance to do that but there were no other plans.
01:15:09 there were no other plans. So I don't know whether that's a convenient moment to Yes, it is. Um, you're making excellent progress, but I do want to ensure that there's adequate time. Would everybody be able to resume at two?
01:15:20 to resume at two? Yes.
01:15:21 Yes. Yes.
01:15:21 Yes. Thank you.
02:14:02 Good afternoon. Today's proceedings are being transmitted after a 10-minute delay by voice only. Those with mobile devices may uh use them to
02:14:14 devices may uh use them to speak to the outside world to say what they have heard, but only 10 minutes after the event that they're describing. Uh those devices may not be used for photography or recording. Uh there is a
02:14:26 photography or recording. Uh there is a reporting restriction order in place. If anyone has any doubt about what that requires, please look at the notice and consult a member of staff if need be. Thank you.
02:14:45 of staff if need be. Thank you. L3. Before lunch, I was asking you about events on the 1st of September when L4 was badly injured and the resulting protest the following day on the 2nd of September. I would like to move forward in time a few days to the 6th of
02:14:57 in time a few days to the 6th of September. And in doing so, please may I ask that report MPS trebo 3897 sir at your tab B6 is put up on screen. Thank you, [clears throat]
02:15:08 Thank you, [clears throat] L3. We can see this is a report by James Thompson dated the 6th of September. Let me just read it onto the record and then I'll ask you a few questions about it.
02:15:21 I'll ask you a few questions about it. It's titled Magenta Triangle Surrey and Bursto Hunt. Uh it says this. Following the incident last week where L4 was run
02:15:33 the incident last week where L4 was run over and badly injured during a frackar between Hunt saboturs and Hunt supporters, there is to be another demonstration this evening by members of the Hunt Saboturs Association against
02:15:46 the Hunt Saboturs Association against members of the Surrey and Burto Hunt. The demonstrators will meet at East Ginstead BR station at 6 p.m. and from there make home visits to a number of prominent members of the hunt. The
02:15:59 prominent members of the hunt. The demonstrators are hoping to have press coverage of the actions, which will consequently be less violent than previous encounters. Given the serious nature of Elfor's injuries, however, the 20 or so protesters are likely to be in a volatile mood.
02:16:16 a volatile mood. in relation to this particular report, their reference to a demonstration by the Hunt Saboturs Association. Could you help us with that? Because this is not reporting that members of the Cudden Hunt saboturs
02:16:34 Hunt saboturs are due to hold a demonstration, but the Hunt Saboturs Association. Could you just help us with the distinction between the two? Yes. I I don't know that that's really correct. I mean, the Hunts Saboters Association was an umbrella organization that um
02:16:45 that um was effectively admin. Uh it was a place for the public to be able to contact um the uh the
02:16:59 to be able to contact um the uh the organization if they'd wanted to. wasn't it wasn't a body of people as such although
02:17:00 although at a later date there there was a committee to help run things because Hunab Association became a limited company of a public limited company at one point um so there was there was a
02:17:15 one point um so there was there was a constitution but it's I mean it's it's um it's not helpful that it's written this way it's it's going to confuse you that it wouldn't have been members of the hunt sabotage association
02:17:29 the hunt sabotage association In a general term, it just would have referred to people who were hunt saboturs per se. Can you remember if you attended such a demonstration? So that we're looking at the 6th of September, so just under a week later.
02:17:44 week later. I I honestly can't bring it to mind, but I I won't dispute that I I would have taken part in such things. the reference to home visits. The demonstrators will meet at the station and from there make home visits
02:17:55 and from there make home visits to prominent members of the hunt.
02:18:06 to prominent members of the hunt. Being specific again to this date, is that something that you recall or recall talk about? Home visits at this time. Home visits. Yes. I I think this was really born out of the fact that what we really wanted to do was the event of the
02:18:20 really wanted to do was the event of the second that we've covered which ended so fast and and and so disastrously and it was felt that we hadn't really
02:18:31 and it was felt that we hadn't really made our voice clear and we it wasn't we hadn't got the message home and so this was
02:18:38 this was 2.0 Oh, in terms of uh just trying to make ourselves make how we felt known to the hunt that that this wasn't something that was that was an acceptable thing for them to have done. And so it was yes it was the it
02:18:54 done. And so it was yes it was the it was the next stage and um many of the prominent members of the hunt uh were listed in directories and so on uh hunt directories I'm referring to and and therefore their their details would be be known to us. But
02:19:07 be be known to us. But do you mind if I go on to make a a comment about home visits? Please do please describe what they are as well. I I think I've heard it mentioned
02:19:19 mentioned by others in in in in other testimony which I have seen and it can be a little bit confusing and I understand that it's it can be taken as very as a controversial
02:19:31 controversial area that um protesters would turn up outside
02:19:42 protesters would turn up outside somebody's own front door and make them aware in a very personal way um that what we felt they were doing was objectionable and it is controversial. But it was even controversial to some of us and I don't think it's been mentioned
02:19:54 us and I don't think it's been mentioned so far and and it's not in the interests of people like Thompson to have made this aware to you in his statement but
02:20:07 this aware to you in his statement but you know we really did consider what we were doing before it was done and in many cases we placed our own safeguarding in front of these home visits and we didn't just sort of turn up on mass with um
02:20:20 up on mass with um no homework prior to. We knew who we were going to and we knew the risk that we were taking in so doing and how it may come across. And I can assure you without being able to prove it to you, but I can assure you
02:20:38 to prove it to you, but I can assure you that there were one or two people who we became aware of who were metaphorically crossed off the list for home visits because
02:20:41 because others they lived with were considered too vulnerable and we wouldn't wouldn't wish to upset them. So the these were considered actions is what I want you to
02:20:54 considered actions is what I want you to understand. Did that description of home visits have any sinister overtones? Not to us. I mean, there was no no plan to do anything other than demonstrate
02:21:10 to do anything other than demonstrate for a short while at the home address. It wasn't an attempt to then damage property or masquerade as an opportunity to cause
02:21:18 to cause damage.
02:21:27 The report that we have on screen that we've been looking at, it concludes by
02:21:38 we've been looking at, it concludes by say stating given the serious nature of L4's injuries, however, the 20 or so protesters are likely to be in a volatile mood. That that reference to the group um and also yourself, would you say that at that time you were in a volatile mood given what had happened to L4? No. And
02:21:51 given what had happened to L4? No. And it's it's it's again it's it's fluorid writing in that this this is supposed to be a dispassionate document and if you're if you're supplying information it it should be very objective and not
02:22:05 it it should be very objective and not subjective. And the moment starts adding opinion and it is opinion that that has been written there. It's it's steering the reader immediately to form an impression that's not their own.
02:22:19 form an impression that's not their own. And so no I refute it. uh we were not in a volatile mood at all. I'd like to ask you about another document that touches on the aftermath
02:22:33 document that touches on the aftermath of what happened to L4. So it is it your tab B23. Please may I ask that document MPS treble 5282 is put up on screen.
02:22:41 Oh gosh. Okay.
02:22:51 anything specific. So now in relation to this document and we may return to this but I want to ask you about something very specific. It's an operation lime special branch note dated the 8th of February 2001. But what I want to ask you about is
02:23:05 But what I want to ask you about is what's described in the third paragraph. So in this document it states in the immediate aftermath of the incident and in the ensuing months there have been a number of revenge attacks against
02:23:19 number of revenge attacks against members associates of the hunt. All members and supporters of the hunt concerned are now considered to be at risk. although the driver of the vehicle would be a particularly attractive target in relation to uh this uh
02:23:38 target in relation to uh this uh document and just so that you're aware it is a document that was authored by one of the managers HN58 but but he's describing that in the
02:23:49 but but he's describing that in the aftermath the immediate aftermath that there had been a number of revenge attacks.
02:23:51 attacks. You you were there at the time. You were in the group. What is this or what could this be a reference to? Yes. Again, well, I mean it what do you define as a avenge attack? I
02:24:06 what do you define as a avenge attack? I mean, you could potentially even suggest that the essentially peaceable home visits were revenge attacks, if that's how you choose to
02:24:17 how you choose to word them. I I I cannot otherwise understand what they mean. Um if by that is meant physical attacks, if revenge attacks here is a reference to
02:24:30 to physical attacks over and above what you have described the what happened the following day, the 2nd of September, but also at the report we were just looking at of the 6th of September.
02:24:42 at of the 6th of September. What what else was there in terms of demonstrating against the hunt for what had happened to L4? I think I think it's it's very important to to make this
02:24:57 it's very important to to make this clear that I if our intention had been to be physically violent, it would have been immediately counterproductive. It we we would have managed to get one such event in before
02:25:09 managed to get one such event in before all subsequent events would have become impossible. um because action would have been taken proactively against us in in that event. It it's exactly the same as um our
02:25:24 It it's exactly the same as um our standard day out sabotaging the hunts. If if if our intention had been to simply attack them on site, we'd have lasted 5 minutes and that would have been it. um we had to keep our and we
02:25:35 been it. um we had to keep our and we desired to keep our actions peaceable in nature so that we could achieve what we set out to achieve and that is also the case
02:25:45 case with the protest subsequent to L4's assault.
02:25:47 assault. I wonder if we can look at the next paragraph in this same document because it says that the most angered by the incident uh have been the personal
02:26:00 incident uh have been the personal friends and associates of the victim of whom L2 could be regarded as his closest. Now just pausing there, those most angered by the incident have been
02:26:12 most angered by the incident have been the personal friends and associates of the victim. Fair to say that you were angered
02:26:13 angered by what happened? Certainly. and the reference to L2 in particular being regarded as L4's
02:26:24 particular being regarded as L4's closest associate or or friend. Is that a fair description? Is that accurate?
02:26:37 a fair description? Is that accurate? Uh I mean yes. I won't necessarily dispute it. I I I don't know that he was particularly seen by L4 as closer than the rest. But I I won't argue we were all very close to L4. Now in this document and we will go into
02:26:51 Now in this document and we will go into detail of what has been said uh by James Thompson about what happened next. But you can see following the incident L2 made contact with a French national with a view to procuring a quantity of black powder and a firearm in France.
02:27:06 powder and a firearm in France. What's your reaction to reading that please?
02:27:08 please? My reaction to that is that I was utterly a gasast when I first saw it and I simply didn't recognize what I was
02:27:20 I simply didn't recognize what I was reading. This is fantasy, sir. It did not happen. The next sentence, MT James Thompson's uh code name Magenta Triangle. MT's credibility within the
02:27:34 Triangle. MT's credibility within the group was such that he was asked to use his vehicle to drive to France to collect the items. Again, your reaction to reading that that it's untrue that the event simply did not happen. He was not asked to
02:27:46 did not happen. He was not asked to drive to France for any such purpose.
02:27:58 then goes on to talk about a particular trip that I would like um your evidence in relation to. You can see it states this. On the 9th of November 2000, MT took part in a dry run to France with
02:28:11 took part in a dry run to France with L1, another close friend of L4. It was during this trip that MT became aware that the collection would take place in the Marseilles area, although he was not
02:28:23 the Marseilles area, although he was not told the identity of the French contact. The plan was to spend a few days in France ostensibly as tourists, collect the weaponry, secrete it in his vehicle,
02:28:38 the weaponry, secrete it in his vehicle, and return to the UK where L2 would take possession of it. Again, your reaction to reading that, please. When I first received this as disclosure, I simply didn't
02:28:49 this as disclosure, I simply didn't understand what was meant by dry run. It meant nothing to me. Um, I simply couldn't piece it together until in time. My best guess in what's being referred to here is a day trip to France
02:29:04 referred to here is a day trip to France occurred in which I believe Thompson and L1 and another person, possibly L1's girlfriend, but I'm not certain, took a day trip to France, effectively what we would know as a
02:29:16 effectively what we would know as a booze cruise, and came back again. That is the only thing I can relate this to. I do not know otherwise what is being spoken about.
02:29:36 spoken about. Was there any discussion after this trip between you and anyone who went on the trip? James Thompson L1 or L1's girlfriend? Nope. None at all.
02:29:52 In relation to that trip, do you remember yourself being asked whether you would want to join what you've described as as a booze cruise?
02:30:03 described as as a booze cruise? No. Um, I don't believe I don't believe I was asked. Um, no. I I don't believe I was ever going to be part of part of that day trip. Now, it's in relation to this particular date. So the 9th of November 2000
02:30:14 date. So the 9th of November 2000 the what described and the documents as a dry run that you've described as a as a booze cruise. I want to ask if and sir is your tab B4 if the document MPS
02:30:26 is your tab B4 if the document MPS treble 9484 could please be shown on screen.
02:30:46 Now just to provide um you with detail about this document on over the page it is
02:30:48 is authored by NW. So that's one of the managers null war and it's dated the 13th of November 2000 and it's an SDS
02:31:01 13th of November 2000 and it's an SDS file note and if we go back to the first page you can see what is referred to right at the beginning. So it says BG so reference to manager Bernard
02:31:13 BG so reference to manager Bernard Greeny and I. So this is Nor War visited MT so James Thompson at his Kent residence on the 10th of November 2000. He had just returned from an exhausting
02:31:25 He had just returned from an exhausting day in Calala with L1 and his girlfriend on the 9th of November. They had gone out on the 1100 Euro Tunnel train and been pulled by the internal security. No
02:31:38 been pulled by the internal security. No obvious reason for this. Another car had also been singled out and subject to a search, including a sweep with some kind of machine which was looking for explosives. Presumably, this is part of the
02:31:49 Presumably, this is part of the Christmas anti- RI presumably real IRA campaign. Not surprisingly, this rattled
02:32:04 campaign. Not surprisingly, this rattled L1 somewhat, but MT managed to point out the random nature of this and will work on reassuring the group over the next few days. Now, you've just told us that there's no real discussion after this uh trip, but having read that, does that
02:32:19 trip, but having read that, does that jog your memory? any references to you anyone attending uh on that trip referring to them being stopped as they were coming back? I'm afraid no I I don't recognize any of this and it occurs to me though I to set
02:32:35 this and it occurs to me though I to set the scene slightly by by the late autumn of 2000
02:32:41 of 2000 I was no longer living in the same property as L1. So, the chances of us having a conversation about this could only have been possible if it had been by the telephone. And the address I
02:32:55 been by the telephone. And the address I was living in at the time did not have a landline. So, I really just would not have had this conversation. And I don't see how it would have been possible anyway because it simply didn't happen. They went across to Calala. They had a
02:33:10 They went across to Calala. They had a day out and brought back a load of cheap beer is what I understood happened.
02:33:23 to move forward in time. So this uh was the 9th of November 2000. I wonder if we could please show on screen. So it's at your tab B8. It is MPS treble treble 41.
02:33:47 So this document is uh authored by manager HN58 you can see at the bottom and it refers to magenta triangle proposed trip to Istanbul with L4
02:34:04 and let's just turn to that report. So on Friday the 1st of September, animal rights activist L4 was run over by a vehicle being driven by a gamekeeper connected to the Surrey and Bersto hunked. L4 suffered extensive injuries and is at present recuperating at home.
02:34:16 and is at present recuperating at home. It is thought unlikely that he will ever make a full recovery. Surrey police have investigated the incident and have referred the matter to the CPS. Uh, and then this, there has been
02:34:29 Uh, and then this, there has been widespread outrage by those within the animal rights movement, none more so than L4's close friends, L1, L2, and L3. At present, there is a plan to obtain black powder and a gun from France
02:34:44 black powder and a gun from France through a French animal rights activist. While the target is unknown, it is very probable that the driver of the vehicle remains the most likely recipient. Magenta Triangle is well placed to report on this uh enterprise. Uh and
02:34:59 report on this uh enterprise. Uh and again, please may I have your reaction to that?
02:35:03 to that? Again, I found it utterly staggering to read. I I don't recognize what's being referred to here that uh beyond beyond the first paragraph where it it speaks
02:35:16 the first paragraph where it it speaks about L4 being in in Turkey. Yes, that I believe he had reason to be there for work. But with regard to paragraph two, I simply don't recognize what what what you've just read.
02:35:30 you've just read. So in the third paragraph, L4 is employed by privacy and has been working in Turkey earlier in the year. That sounds accurate to you. Is that Yes. Yes, it does. He was shortly after receiving his current injury, scheduled to return to Istanbul to complete his contract.
02:35:42 Istanbul to complete his contract. Clearly, he has not been able to fulfill his work commitments, but he is now well enough to travel and intends to go to Istanbul to collect some belongings and tie up some loose ends. Due to his condition, he requires someone to
02:35:57 condition, he requires someone to accompany him. Magenta Triangle has been asked whether he can help. Can you help us in relation to that? So, he's L4 going back to Turkey, but needs some help because of uh the injuries he
02:36:09 help because of uh the injuries he sustained. and James Thompson being asked, "Well, can you help?" Yes. I mean, it's plausible. Um, it's difficult to recollect whether Thompson was specifically asked or whether it was just a general call to assist L4. Um,
02:36:31 just a general call to assist L4. Um, it does seem he certainly had loose ends to tie up having been out there for work. Um,
02:36:37 work. Um, I seem to have some recollection that he had some companion animal that he would have required to bring back and put into quarantine and there was some paperwork required there springs to
02:36:50 paperwork required there springs to mind. It's just admin. Admin was what he was going back for. But, um, why specifically Thompson was chosen to be on that trip, I don't know. I I would I would speculate that he just made
02:37:02 would speculate that he just made himself available. Do you remember him actually going there or is that something that you can't recall of time? Very very vaguely. Very vaguely. It's it's difficult to bring to mind.
02:37:17 it's difficult to bring to mind. Now of course this document this special branch note written by a manager and he says in the last um the penultimate paragraph magenta triangle in addition to increasing his credibility within the group. So the suggestion here that uh
02:37:30 group. So the suggestion here that uh James Thompson while traveling with uh L 4 back to Turkey will increase his credibility in the group. C can you comment on on that? Is is that the sort of actions that you described previously being very surprised that he didn't
02:37:45 being very surprised that he didn't attend on the 2nd of September? Sort of thing
02:37:49 thing your concerns about it? No. Um I
02:37:56 No. Um I increasing his credibility by simply accompanying L4
02:38:02 L4 doesn't sit well with me at all. I think the real motivation beine behind his desire to accompany L4 is that he would be in close proximity for what does it say at the very end there? the better part of a week in which
02:38:19 part of a week in which he would have access to to someone that he could initiate conversation with, listen to, observe, and just generally carry out surveillance on. I think that was far more in his mind than than
02:38:31 was far more in his mind than than actually accompanying and being helpful to L4.
02:38:34 to L4. And the document is specific though, isn't it? says in particular he will have an an ideal opportunity to find out what future plans L4 has to exact retribution on the driver of the
02:38:49 retribution on the driver of the vehicle. He may also talk about the current plan involving his close friends.
02:38:56 friends. Yes. [snorts] Uh this this would have been him mining L4 for information I I imagine. But I mean L4 himself I mean this is terrible really because I mean L4 was in a very delicate position here at this at this stage he was still in
02:39:09 at this at this stage he was still in recuperation stage. She was not a well man. Um
02:39:17 man. Um uh and vulnerable and um who knows where his mind would have been at that point and um what he he could have been engaged in or what get a couple of drinks in in him as well. And who knows what he he might
02:39:28 well. And who knows what he he might have been saying at the time. He wasn't he wasn't in his right mind after after what had happened to him.
02:39:39 what had happened to him. Now I'm going to ask if the document sir your tab B9 it is our MPS0527650
02:39:52 could please be put up on screen and it is the second page of that document please.
02:39:57 Oh yes.
02:40:09 So this is a document you can see it's HN53. So another manager but again it's a similar topic in the context of the Marseilles operation. The importance of Magenta Triangle's participation in the trip to Istanbul with L4 should not be understated. In the first instance there
02:40:25 understated. In the first instance there is the probable intelligence dividend to be gained from L4 about the longerterm intentions of L1, L2 or L3. More particularly, however, the cementing of the relationship between Magenta
02:40:36 the relationship between Magenta Triangle and the most high-profile animal rights martyr will greatly enhance his credibility in standing amongst those who are driving the
02:40:47 amongst those who are driving the procurement. This description of L4 in that way described as the most high-profile animal rights martyr. Could you comment on the language you hear? Yes. I mean it it seems deliberate
02:40:58 Yes. I mean it it seems deliberate deliberately inflammatory. I mean by very definition he wasn't a martr. But um but no that they're attempting to propel L4 to be something that he
02:41:10 propel L4 to be something that he wasn't. And what he was was a very vulnerable man who had nearly died and um
02:41:18 um was desperately in need of friends to help him. And this presumption that by getting close to him would enhance a reputation or or lead to what is it they
02:41:31 reputation or or lead to what is it they use intelligence dividend. L4 would have had nothing to say. L4's mind would have been on nothing but self-reovery. At this point, I'm quite certain.
02:41:45 this point, I'm quite certain. And in terms of referencing the data when all of this happened, the next paragraph, Magenta Triangle is due to travel to Istanbul with L4 on the 20th of November, returning the following Monday, the 27th. The pair will be
02:41:57 Monday, the 27th. The pair will be staying in the suburbs. And it goes on, and you can see if we turn over the page, the application for authorization
02:42:09 page, the application for authorization to travel is approved by Detective Chief Superintendent Colin Black. But that is in relation to a trip whereby James Thompson returns on the 20 8th of uh
02:42:24 Thompson returns on the 20 8th of uh September, sorry, 28th of November. And I would like to ask you next about a meeting a couple of days later between you and James Thompson. And in order to do that please could we put up on screen
02:42:37 do that please could we put up on screen is it your tab B12 it is MPS treble 4762
02:42:48 so he goes to Istanbul comes back on the 28th and on the 30th of November according to this office note this is
02:43:00 according to this office note this is what's referred to so MT spent yesterday 30th of November in company with L3 at L3's home address They discussed their forthcoming trip to France and the following points were agreed and then we've got the itinerary 30th of November 2000.
02:43:13 30th of November 2000. You've seen you've seen this document u in the disclosure provided to you by the inquiry.
02:43:20 inquiry. Correct.
02:43:28 Correct. Firstly, do do you recall any meeting at that time? So the 30th of November again after James Thompson returns from visiting or from accompanying L4 to Turkey.
02:43:39 Turkey. What I do remember is that it's correct I I was living away from the address we've spoken about before
02:43:52 the address we've spoken about before and it is true that he made visits to me at least on one occasion in the company of Sara
02:43:59 of Sara um at that location. I think it probably is correct that it happened before the January of 2001. Um
02:44:09 Um but I'm sorry to be more specific about that exact date. I I I he certainly paid visits to me there, but on that specific date, I can't be certain. It's it's possible.
02:44:27 It's it's possible. Yes, it is possible. Um moving to the content of what was described there and you can see firstly a straightforward itinerary. So uh leaving uh Dova to travel to Cali on the 8th of January, Calala to Bordeaux the 9th of
02:44:40 January, Calala to Bordeaux the 9th of January, Bordeaux to Marseilles the 9th to the 11th and Marseilles to Calala back 12th to the 14th of January. Was that discussed around this time?
02:44:52 around this time? This is
02:44:52 This is an itinerary. This is the difficulty I have is that I think this is all a bit too early. I have a recollection of the trip
02:45:06 have a recollection of the trip being far more ad hoc and being planned far closer to the departure. I don't have a recollection at all of it being planned this early. In fact, I don't
02:45:19 planned this early. In fact, I don't believe it was. I I have a much stronger recollection of it being something that was presented almost as an opportunity. I described it as having fallen into my lap and that suggests
02:45:32 fallen into my lap and that suggests that it wasn't planned sort of six weeks in advance. So I don't think that's correct.
02:45:43 correct. Do you mean by falling into your lap? Could you just describe that a bit more, please? Yes, it's the the reason for the trip not being in my memory is too far planned was because it came to my attention that Thompson had a reason
02:46:02 my attention that Thompson had a reason to be in the south of France relating to business totally unconnected to our animal rights activity. And it was mentioned to me possibly even in just passing and I saw an opportunity at a time where
02:46:17 I saw an opportunity at a time where things were not great in a relationship I was having and I thought I wonder if he would want somebody to help drive on a trip like that. It's a bit of a distance and there's a
02:46:37 bit of a distance and there's a opportunity for me to get away and um have a little break effectively without having planned it. I just want to give you an opportunity to respond to what is recorded
02:46:52 to respond to what is recorded in this note. The overall impression given by L3 was that he sees the trip as a bit of a holiday built around purchase of the goods. So the first line is true. I certainly
02:47:05 So the first line is true. I certainly did see it as being a bit of a holiday. I have absolutely no idea what is referred to as the goods or at least I do now. But when I first read this, I did not. To this end, he has suggested
02:47:19 did not. To this end, he has suggested going via Bordeaux to sample the wines and then leisurely traveling to Marseilles.
02:47:25 The comment about Bordeaux is is correct. Um if the itinerary had been purely mine to create, we'd never have gone anywhere near Provence. We would
02:47:36 gone anywhere near Provence. We would have gone straight to Bordeaux. I was not part of any planning to go to Marseilles. That was something I had to accept on the grounds that this is where his business meeting was
02:47:49 this is where his business meeting was due to take place. And therefore, if you wanted to take advantage of a trip away, you were going to have to accept that this was to come first.
02:48:03 this was to come first. I'll come back to the reference to business meeting. But if we just stay with this document, a few minutes ago, you indicated that you were uh having relationship issues with your girlfriend at this time. Yes.
02:48:16 Yes. And we can see here that it states that L3 sheepishly requested that his girlfriend and her friend accompany them on the trip to give good cover.
02:48:28 on the trip to give good cover. Yes, this would this would be nonsense. It it makes no sense. It it's not what would have happened. in in any case to give good cover to what we were going on holiday there's there would not have been a requirement the the whole idea was to have a bit of time away so I I
02:48:43 was to have a bit of time away so I I wouldn't have asked for her to accompany us and in any case it as it later transpired but I I'll I'll bring it in now that
02:48:55 now that at some point during the trip we were to liaz with Sara and there which I understood still be a bit of a gray area as to whether they were still a couple or not. I was not
02:49:12 were still a couple or not. I was not certain of that fact. Um, and therefore, if anyone's girlfriend was to accompany us, it was going to be his. But yeah, dwell for a moment on that to give good cover for what? It was It was a trip away. It was a It was a holiday.
02:49:30 away. It was a It was a holiday. Before we begin going through that holiday,
02:49:31 holiday, Yes.
02:49:38 Yes. the two things I want to ask you about is the discussions you had with Thompson beforehand. You mentioned a business meeting.
02:49:39 meeting. Yes.
02:49:42 Yes. Could could you tell us when that arose in in conversation and what James Thompson said about it? Um, it'll be difficult for me to to to remember exa
02:49:53 difficult for me to to to remember exa exactly when it came up, but the whole reason for him needing to be in France was to attend what seemed to be a small business
02:50:05 what seemed to be a small business meeting down in the Marseilles region. That that was the purpose for him crossing the channel. Um there had been some talk previously that he was
02:50:15 he was potentially thinking of importing golf carts or some such into the country as a business venture. I remember him talking to L4 about this at L4's
02:50:31 to L4 about this at L4's house on on at least one occasion. I wasn't really privy to the conversation because I would certainly have not been in any in any position to invest in this
02:50:51 in any in any position to invest in this venture, but L4 just might have been. So that's why the conversation arose. Um, and it's my understanding that this reason to be in Marseilles was to conduct a meeting related to this business venture. Did you ask James
02:51:03 business venture. Did you ask James Thompson more details? For example, importing golf buggies, golf carts,
02:51:19 importing golf buggies, golf carts, going to uh France to to do so. Did you ask him more more questions about it? To be perfectly honest, if if anyone else in our SAB group had had mentioned this, I would have probably had 101 questions for them. But not so much with him because he always displayed
02:51:38 because he always displayed a degree of wealth that the rest of us did not have. And therefore, I didn't question it quite so much because it wasn't so implausible that he might have seen a little opportunity for a business venture. Um,
02:51:55 yes, it wasn't it wasn't totally beyond the bounds, but it would have been very odd if anyone else had come up with it. Let's move to the trip itself. I'm going to ask you uh to provide uh detail in
02:52:13 to ask you uh to provide uh detail in relation to this particular uh trip and it may assist if we turn to page 12 of your statement because you do describe it in some detail from paragraph 4.14.
02:52:26 Now you say that
02:52:31 that you and James Thompson met at Sara's house. Is that correct? Yes, that was the sort of rendevu point for the trip to begin. That's correct.
02:52:43 for the trip to begin. That's correct. The words that you use in your statements, I remember vividly that I drove down with him through France. It was just James Thompson and I in the car. Is that right?
02:53:03 car. Is that right? Yes. So, this is the beginning of what I now understand to be operation lime. and
02:53:12 totally beyond my level of awareness. This this has clearly been possibly the biggest event of my life that I'm not aware of up until about a fortnight ago. Um,
02:53:26 up until about a fortnight ago. Um, so I have put much thought to this and and have a fairly well constructed timeline of events um of what took what really took place as opposed to
02:53:45 as opposed to what you're going to ask me in terms of what Thompson believes took place. And the two could not be further apart. Um
02:53:47 Um yeah sorry but to answer your question yes that is correct. I by this stage the the trip had been agreed. Um I was to
02:54:00 the trip had been agreed. Um I was to come along. I was to share the driving. Um and the trip was to begin across the Dova Calala ferry route and we were to drive down the uh eastern
02:54:15 we were to drive down the uh eastern side of France towards Marseilles with a stop on route. And you say in your statement that you stayed overnight on the first night somewhere near near Leon.
02:54:28 somewhere near near Leon. Yes. I to the best of my recollection I I simply cannot remember exactly where but I I know there was an overnight stop before we arrived in Marles and it would have been a roughly around the Lyon area. Y
02:54:40 area. Y and we we can see uh there that you give detail about stopping in a a rest area uh that you managed to find a good wine.
02:54:51 uh that you managed to find a good wine. Um so this detail as you uh sit there is this trip clear in your mind? Very yes. Even that first day I I just remember there was very much a holiday atmosphere to it. We were laughing and
02:55:08 atmosphere to it. We were laughing and joking. Um it it was very clear that uh we were um away from from life at home and um there was a fairly carefree uh feel to it. And um I I remember where we stopped in the in in the little rest
02:55:19 stopped in the in in the little rest area. There was even a bit of uh winter sunlight. We were able to sit at a picnic table wearing just a jacket. It was all it was all quite convivial.
02:55:32 This was you, James Thompson, and nobody else. Correct.
02:55:34 Correct. In his Land Rover. Correct. Yes.
02:55:43 You describe in paragraph 41 16. The following morning we continued the journey south towards Marseilles. We arrived in Marseilles at approximately
02:55:56 arrived in Marseilles at approximately lunchtime. I remember our arrival quite well because the road we arrived in on took us to a mini arct triumph in the center of Marseilles. I remember pointing it out to James again. You remember that clearly now? Very clearly. Yes. The road in was uh it brings you directly into the city
02:56:09 brings you directly into the city center. Um, yes, their their version of the Arct Triumph is is as the one in Paris is a great big roundabout. You circumn it to get to your next route and one or two of the avenues lead directly
02:56:23 one or two of the avenues lead directly down to the sea. It's it's something you would not miss. When you stayed overnight the night before, you were in a twin room or separate rooms?
02:56:36 separate rooms? No. Um, every night that we were away on this trip, we um shared a room, a twin room. Yes.
02:56:47 You describe in paragraph 417 that accommodation had been booked and over the page, paragraph 418, we parked the car up and checked in. It was after
02:56:59 the car up and checked in. It was after we checked in that we went our separate ways so that he could attend his meeting.
02:57:05 meeting. Now, up until this moment, from when you first set out from Sara's house, up until this point, how much time had you spent apart physically? I mean, literally, the only time we would have spent apart would have been
02:57:19 would have spent apart would have been if one of us was using the bathroom, but literally the entire time.
02:57:29 Could you tell us a bit more detail as far as you can recall what happened here? So you park the car up, you check in
02:57:39 in at roughly what time of day was this? Um,
02:57:43 Um, so we arrived in the Marseilles area around lunchtime. So it's early afternoon by the time we've checked into the hotel and uh parked up the car. Yes, early afternoon. At this stage, you mentioned before you
02:57:59 At this stage, you mentioned before you didn't really ask him about the the meet up with the the bank manager or the business trip about golf buggies, but at
02:58:11 business trip about golf buggies, but at this stage, did you ask him or where are you going to go? What are you going to say? Any more questions about it? At this time, it had been established that his meeting was was going to be at the bank. He was he was seeing a bank manager in France. Um, I think it was in relation to
02:58:22 Um, I think it was in relation to securing a loan. Um, but actually no, because to be perfectly honest, I wasn't greatly interested. Um, it sounded like a slightly far-fetched venture. And I I
02:58:34 a slightly far-fetched venture. And I I didn't really see how the world of golf buggies was going to work. It's not really something I was very interested in. And if I'm honest, I was just delighted to be um somewhere else. And um was quite happy if he wanted to go off at two or three hours to his
02:58:47 off at two or three hours to his meeting, I was going to go off and explore. So yeah, you you describe doing just that at paragraph 418. You refer to it as being a couple of hours.
02:59:00 a couple of hours. Does that sound about right in terms of the time that you were apart from James Thompson?
02:59:01 Thompson? Yes, it does. Yes. You say at some point later on in the evening, this is paragraph 419, you met again at the hotel uh and then you both
02:59:12 again at the hotel uh and then you both go out to find some food again. Did you ask him or how did the meeting go? Can you recall that particular point in time? So when you meet up again after the few hours apart?
02:59:28 the few hours apart? Um if I don't remember it crystal clearly, it's because it was unremarkable. Um he returned after his meeting. I don't doubt for a moment. I asked if it went well. Um there would
02:59:39 asked if it went well. Um there would have been some small talk over it, but nothing really sticks in my mind.
02:59:51 nothing really sticks in my mind. What does stick in your mind in the next paragraph? You you refer and the detail you give, you say it's still daylight. You remember that one of the streets that you walked down, it was a cobbled street. And you said that as we walked
03:00:04 street. And you said that as we walked down it, we were met by approximately 10 members of the local Jean Dharm. We commented between each other that Marseilles must be a dangerous place if the police had to patrol 10 at a time.
03:00:18 the police had to patrol 10 at a time. Yes, I I remember it clearly. I'd never seen anything quite like it. It was just one of those things that stuck in the mind. It was almost um a bit surreal. We turned a corner and um coming down the street to meet us were 10 members of uniformed
03:00:29 10 members of uniformed French police. And yes, we most certainly commented that oh my god, where have we where have we come to that they need to patrol in these numbers. Yes, it's it's just a a remembrance of that that that evening. Yeah.
03:00:43 that that that evening. Yeah. I want to ask you about what you've put in your next paragraph. You say, "We found something somewhere to eat." It's paragraph 421. We found somewhere to eat and we stopped to discuss whether it would be suitable. I noticed that there was a cat in the
03:00:55 I noticed that there was a cat in the shop window behind me. We both engaged with the cat through the glass. I don't know why that sticks in my memory, but it does. The rest of the evening was
03:01:07 it does. The rest of the evening was unmemorable. We ate and then went back to the hotel. So, this is many years ago. Could you help us with how you can remember the detail in relation to a cat?
03:01:19 cat? I I don't know. It's just It is ridiculous. I know. But I The cat was engaging with us behind the glass. And I don't know why I I remember it. It It
03:01:32 don't know why I I remember it. It It just sticks in my memory. I I tapped the glass and sort of engaged with the cat back and brought it to Thompson's attention. And yes, it just it just it just sticks in my mind. I I have no idea why I remember it.
03:01:44 why I remember it. Did you notice anything about his behavior? Is anything different about his behavior at all at this time? At this time, no, I I don't think so. I think he at this point he was keen to find something to eat just as I was. No, nothing. Nothing really. Well, you you
03:01:59 nothing. Nothing really. Well, you you describe how you ate, went back to the hotel,
03:02:00 hotel, and then
03:02:03 and then the following morning. Refer to paragraph 422. I want to go through this carefully. You wake up.
03:02:14 You wake up. What do you remember as the first thing when you woke up? Yes. So, this is now the morning of the 10th of January to to be clear. Um,
03:02:25 to be clear. Um, and yes, I am either blessed or I suffer from the fact that I am a heavy sleeper. And I did not realize that at that point
03:02:41 And I did not realize that at that point as I awoke that I was alone in the room. Um, and I awoke to find that a handwritten note had been left for me and that Thompson was no longer in the room with me.
03:02:57 You refer to after you got up, you noticed that he'd left a handwritten note.
03:03:01 note. Yes. And the basic detail of which was to let me know that he had discovered that the car had been stolen and that he was out effectively reporting that fact. Uh you go on in your statement at 4:24
03:03:14 Uh you go on in your statement at 4:24 to explain that when he returned to the hotel, he explained uh to you just what was in the note that the car had been stolen.
03:03:22 stolen. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. And uh
03:03:33 Yes, that's correct. Yeah. And uh you go on to say that you both made some quip about that it's probably in Morocco at the moment. Yes. that that became a sort of staple joke throughout the remainder of the trip that um yes, it would it probably been whisked away to North Africa by now. But um
03:03:44 now. But um yes um
03:03:50 yes um I mean at some point um I went out onto the street probably with him and I was shown the point at which we'd left the car. I was aware the car was parked very close to the entrance to the hotel. I
03:04:04 close to the entrance to the hotel. I could see that it wasn't there. Um there was shattered glass on the road. It was pointed out to me and um well I mean what that the vehicle's not there and there seems to be evidence. What what
03:04:17 there seems to be evidence. What what what more could I do but except the fact that the car had indeed been stolen or so it appeared? Did you did you suspect anything at the time? Well, I mean, I made mention
03:04:31 time? Well, I mean, I made mention in my statement that I've always thought it a bit odd that it was stolen, but at the at the same time, it is it is still believable. I mean, this is a this is a British registered vehicle. Um, so
03:04:41 so it's not going to be that easily concealable in France. It's going to stand out. And I just thought, would is it really going to have been stolen?
03:04:52 it really going to have been stolen? Would somebody have wanted it? Um, but I mean it was it was a fairly it was a fairly decent make of car and I'm as I
03:05:04 fairly decent make of car and I'm as I mentioned in the statement that I'm sure a decent car to a car thief is a decent car. So I just accepted that that that had happened but I've never felt I've never felt that it was particularly
03:05:16 I've never felt that it was particularly genuine. Um, I don't know if I expand on this by telling you what I have always felt Operation Lime really was and how wrong I was. Um,
03:05:28 wrong I was. Um, and that might explain to you why I've
03:05:41 and that might explain to you why I've always had a slight suspicion that this wasn't genuine, that the car theft was not a genuine theft. Would that be helpful? When did you form this suspicion that you're about to immediately what was it?
03:05:47 So, as I think you've already heard from other testimony that there was always a question mark over Thompson. No one was ever completely comfortable with the stories he gave.
03:05:58 stories he gave. And
03:06:03 And it has been my thought across the last 25 years that the reason I was selected to help drive on this trip is
03:06:17 trip is so that I would be a captive audience for him for about a week and perhaps he would have all the time in the world to engage me in conversation and general intelligence gathering. and that
03:06:29 that it wasn't beyond the bounds of possibility that in order to aid him in that fact that the car had in fact been wired for sound, if I can put it that way, that recording devices had been
03:06:41 way, that recording devices had been attached to the vehicle to pick up what I might let go, what I might say, what I might inadvertently, and that
03:06:53 might inadvertently, and that possibly during the journey down some of this equipment had malfunctioned and that he then needed a replacement vehicle in order to continue simply gathering evidence. Um,
03:07:05 Um, I've always wondered if I was being a bit paranoid about that, but I've been disabused of that in the last Fortnite, haven't I? Because I didn't even come close.
03:07:20 close. We've heard that one of the nicknames that James Thompson had in the group was James Blonde. Yes.
03:07:26 Yes. Was that nickname ever used? Certainly. Constantly. Did Did you ever use it? Certainly. Why
03:07:32 Why was that his nickname? So, it's a direct play on words to James Bond and being a spy. And the fact that Thompson at this time had a light
03:07:47 Thompson at this time had a light colored tint to his hair, it was quite literally a direct tease as to what people underlying thought of him. Um, and our general belief that he was not
03:08:00 and our general belief that he was not quite as we were being led to believe.
03:08:15 quite as we were being led to believe. I want to move on with the uh trip. James Thompson says to you that the plan is to hire a car and continue with the trip.
03:08:20 trip. Yes, I think I think there was some discussion between us as to what we were going to do now because it I mean I was very much the second wheel in this trip and I didn't feel that I could sort of dictate it and if he had wanted to
03:08:33 of dictate it and if he had wanted to sort of throw the towel in and go home, I wasn't really going to have a lot of choice. So there would have been some discussion as to what we'd do next. And yes, he was immediately quite amanable to
03:08:47 to um hiring a car in order for it to continue.
03:08:58 continue. Now, we know a car was uh hired and your uh driving license number appeared in the the higher documentation. Yes.
03:09:02 Yes. And the reference uh to that is perhaps we'll just uh look at that briefly. It is search your tab 11 page seven of tab 11 it's MPS052763.
03:09:30 Now on page seven of this is uh expense claims made by James Thompson following the trip and you can see on the page we have up on screen page seven. It has been redacted. It says L3 driving
03:09:43 been redacted. It says L3 driving license number. So essentially it's it's the beginning of your driving license number which is the beginning of your surname and then the number. So, your driving license number was used in the higher documentation.
03:09:55 higher documentation. From your statement, you don't have a clear recollection of precisely how that happened.
03:10:02 happened. No, I don't. I I I wish of course that I did, but I confirm that it was my driver's license number. Um whether I was actually present at the time the vehicle was hired, I simply just can't bring it to mind. um or whether my
03:10:20 bring it to mind. um or whether my license was taken so that it could be added to the rental agreement. I'm really not certain. Well, [clears throat] you can see just whilst we have this page up that uh just below your driving license number, James
03:10:33 below your driving license number, James Straven and address is given as Lry Film Studios.
03:10:34 Studios. Yes, I see that. All right. I I want to deal before you do, may I ask a question arising out of this document and your witness statement? Um I have uh your real name at the top of your witness
03:10:48 real name at the top of your witness statement and you've seen this document with a name on it. Um the spelling is the same in both instances. Is that correct? Uh my name, sir? Yes. uh without
03:11:02 Yes. uh without don't say it out loud. Of course, protecting your identity, but I can't see how it's spelled. Um I was wondering where when you'd seen the original. Perhaps you
03:11:13 the original. Perhaps you Oh, sorry. Yes. I can't bring it to the original. Ah, I'm told you haven't seen the original. Is that right? Just a list.
03:11:25 Just a list. are then unless there is any reason why uh
03:11:33 uh L3 shouldn't see the original document. Um uh I I and I can't think that there can be.
03:11:34 can be. No, there is um then um I would ask that he'd be shown it at some stage when when I've written and uh when you finished your original questions. So we're not sure that happens.
03:11:50 So we're not sure that happens. But would would you have a look at that? Um, you can tell me though that the name on your witness statement is spelled correctly. Yes. And is that how you've always spelled your name? Thank you.
03:12:07 After this uh car is hired, [snorts] um, where do you go next in your trip in France?
03:12:11 France? Uh, yes. Once the vehicle had been success successfully hired, we left Marseilles and began our journey across southern France in the direction of Bordeaux,
03:12:27 in the direction of Bordeaux, but uh on route that's quite a distance um and we didn't do it in one single journey. Um that was broken overnight um in Kahor. But, uh,
03:12:40 in Kahor. But, uh, I'm going to see if we can deal with it this way. I I think we have a a map.
03:12:51 I'm going to ask if that could be put on the screen. And so, we can see here obviously the the route that you took,
03:13:04 obviously the the route that you took, David to Cali, you've described already at Leon Marles and you just describing stopping at Coahorse, correct?
03:13:13 I remember the journey. I can remember that bit of the journey when everything had started to calm down a bit and um started to process the fact that this car had been apparently stolen and the countryside in that area is very
03:13:24 countryside in that area is very different to what I'm familiar with in France. Obviously in south of France far more arid and um bit more rocky. The um the scenery was different. And again, another small little
03:13:37 another small little anecdote from the trip as we left Marseilles out on the main road out. There was um it's a very iconic French model of vehicle from the 60s and 70s. You'll
03:13:53 vehicle from the 60s and 70s. You'll have all you'll all have seen it before. And um this one was parked broadside on in a layby and it was sort of festoned with animal rights related pictures. It was very in Congress. I I mean it was something you would immediately point
03:14:06 something you would immediately point out and I did just that and um we slowed down to even look at it. It was totally out of place. I have no idea why it was there but it is something I remember as we as on the road out as we left Marseilles that that day.
03:14:21 Marseilles that that day. Now you were heading towards uh Bordeaux. Is that right? That was the end destination for that part of the trip. Yes. Because the plan was to meet Sara at the airport.
03:14:33 airport. It was. Uh, and did you in fact do that with James Thompson? We did.
03:14:36 We did. Did you then go to Santa Million? Um, yeah, we did a number of things. Um, uh, using Bordeaux as a base. It, it was
03:14:47 uh, using Bordeaux as a base. It, it was complete holiday atmosphere there. There were several things. We had a we had a picnic out at the, um, at the beach in along the peninsula. Um,
03:15:04 along the peninsula. Um, and again, I I I can remember the day. I can remember what we did. Um we visited the city itself and some of its more prominent architecture and then um closer to the end of the trip into
03:15:15 closer to the end of the trip into Bordeaux itself, we visited the historic town of of Santa. That's correct. Yeah. Now, whilst you were there, a photo was taken of you. It's your exhibit one. So, it's at our tab A2. It is UCPI 39401.
03:15:29 it's at our tab A2. It is UCPI 39401. Wonder if that document could briefly be shown
03:15:31 shown on screen. And in fact, L3, you've brought the original of this photograph uh with you here today. That's correct. Yes.
03:15:44 That's correct. Yes. So obviously um your face to preserve privacy has been redacted, but uh we can see this is a photo taken by James Thompson of you in Santa Millian on the 13th of January, 2001. That is correct. Yes.
03:15:56 That is correct. Yes. uh you describe in your statement details of the uh trip in sense Amelian and the restaurants that you go to, but I wonder if we could just describe
03:16:10 I wonder if we could just describe perhaps if we just return to the map um as I want to move relatively swiftly through this part of your evidence um the return trip. So just using that map, could you just describe uh for us please the return uh trip? Um yes. So the
03:16:28 the return uh trip? Um yes. So the following day after the trip to the town, we would have uh we we I accompanied Thompson and uh Sara back to the airport where we left Sara. She was going to fly back as she'd flown in and we began heading north at that point. um
03:16:44 heading north at that point. um effectively to begin concluding the trip. Um
03:16:50 trip. Um and then the day passed unremarkably to my mind, but it ended with a stay in DApp overnight and again uh I have a
03:17:01 DApp overnight and again uh I have a particular memory of that because we at quite well that night. It was a very good little restaurant we found which again seemed very odd for such a small little place but it was quite memorable.
03:17:15 continue with this trip. But apart from this
03:17:22 this uh trip to uh France with James Thompson,
03:17:29 Thompson, were there any other trips abroad that you accompanied him on? Um there were no trips in which the two of us
03:17:44 went in the way that I've just described this trip. There there is one occasion in which uh we were both in a foreign country at the same time but we did not travel there together and this predates um what we've been discussing.
03:18:01 um what we've been discussing. Well, is this and you described this at page 19 paragraph 5.2 in your statement um April 1998 in Amsterdam. Uh yes, that's correct. Yeah. And so briefly in relation to that, what interaction did you have with James
03:18:12 interaction did you have with James Thompson in Amsterdam in April 1998?
03:18:26 Thompson in Amsterdam in April 1998? Well, little to be honest. It was it was um it was a gathering um of like-minded folk from all over Western Europe. Um very big collection of people and I really hadn't known Thompson very long at this point. So we would have known each other certainly and um we would
03:18:38 each other certainly and um we would have yeah for about four months or so but um I spent very little time in his company there very little. Whilst we have this paragraph on screen
03:18:52 Whilst we have this paragraph on screen you say I remember seeing HN26 Christine Green who I knew by sight at the gathering too though I didn't speak with her.
03:19:02 her. What what interaction did you have here or at any other time with undercover officer HN26 cover name Christine Green?
03:19:15 officer HN26 cover name Christine Green? Um there are several occasions I can bring to mind where I've come into contact with um other undercover officers, one of whom I now know to be Christine Green. She was associated with uh a fellow SAB group at the time that
03:19:29 uh a fellow SAB group at the time that operated out of the West London Reading area. They usually joined forces um to uh sabotage hunts along the M4 corridor and she was very embedded with them.
03:19:42 and she was very embedded with them. Did you know someone called Thomas Frampton?
03:19:43 Frampton? Yes, I do. Did you ever see Thomas Frampton with Christine Green? Many times.
03:19:58 What was the nature of you seeing them together? How did they interact? It was my understanding that they were a couple.
03:20:02 couple. Why did you form that opinion? Um, it was widely held belief. They spent a great deal of time in each
03:20:15 spent a great deal of time in each other's company. Um, no, I can't recall seeing them being intimate with one another, but um, there was no question in anybody's mind that they were a couple.
03:20:26 that they were a couple. I want to ask you just on this in terms of timing, when do you recall seeing them together, as you say, as a couple? What sort of year? Oh gosh. Um,
03:20:39 Oh gosh. Um, just to give you a point of reference in time, we've just been uh I've just been asking you about this trip in April 1998 to Amsterdam. Yes.
03:20:47 Yes. Where you refer to seeing her then.
03:21:02 Where you refer to seeing her then. It would not be now and it would not have been prior to this. I I to the best of my recollection her association with Tom Frampton would have been after this event.
03:21:10 Yes. After this event. So this event April 98.
03:21:11 98. 98. So how long after? Months, years? No, years I would say, but not not not many years. Um,
03:21:22 many years. Um, a couple of years. It's very difficult to be precise. I'm sorry.
03:21:31 I'd like to now turn uh to a document your tab B22. Page four. It is RPS MPS treble 5257 please.
03:21:52 So on page four of this uh document
03:22:03 now we can see it's dated the 16th Wednesday the 16th of January 2001 special branch note on Wednesday the 16th of January magenta triangle attended the office and provided an
03:22:18 attended the office and provided an initial debriefing brief of the previous week's events in France. So, this is something capturing his debrief just after he gets back and let's go through what he says or what is said. On Monday the 8th of January, MTN L3 caught an
03:22:33 the 8th of January, MTN L3 caught an early ferry from Dova Calali when they arrived in France. L3 telephoned the French contact using a new SIM card in his phone. What's your comment on that?
03:22:51 his phone. What's your comment on that? That is that is not true. that that did not happen. Um, I knew no one in France. Um, I had no contact to phone. I certainly didn't have a separate SIM card. It's blatantly not true. Did you have a mobile phone with you on this trip? I
03:23:03 this trip? I only acquired a mobile phone in for the first time in the September of 2000 and I inherited it effectively from the
03:23:17 I inherited it effectively from the death of a relative who clearly had no further use for it. Um, it was the most basic of handsets
03:23:28 Um, it was the most basic of handsets and to be perfectly honest with you, I'm not sure that it would have even been possible for that device to have operated in France. I don't even remember having it with me. Let's continue with this document. The contact was unable to make the meet
03:23:40 contact was unable to make the meet later in the week and it was arranged that they would rendevous with him in Marseilles the following afternoon.
03:23:53 Well, again, um, all I mean, I I mean, it just didn't happen. Um, so there is no further comment to make. It's it's made up. It's fictitious. Uh, there was no there was no arranged rendevous with anyone else in Marseilles.
03:24:04 anyone else in Marseilles. They then spent the rest of the day driving south and spent the night near Lyon. Then this MT tried to send a text message, but his mobile phone did not transmit.
03:24:14 transmit. From your recollection, did James Thompson have a mobile phone with him on this trip? Yes. Yes, he did. Yeah.
03:24:28 Yes. Yes, he did. Yeah. And in terms of sending text messages, you described uh a few hours apart uh when he says he went to see a bank manager. But apart from that, could you help us with what opportunities he would have had to send messages or make phone calls on this trip? Um, if he was
03:24:40 calls on this trip? Um, if he was attempting to send messages without me seeing it, he would have had very little opportunity. Um, he might have had to sort of run away to the bathroom in order to do it. Um, but if he was
03:24:51 order to do it. Um, but if he was able to make an excuse as to why he needed to send a message, then um, he would have been able to have plenty of opportunity to send a message. Um, yes, if he'd wanted to
03:25:06 message. Um, yes, if he'd wanted to keep it secret, then he would have found that difficult. On Tuesday the 9th of January, they drove to Marseilles where they met the contact in a small cafe next to
03:25:17 contact in a small cafe next to Marseilles station. Did you ever attend a cafe next to Marseilles station? No, we did not. The contact was accompanied by two other people. The contact is described as North African appearance, yellow skinned, spoke very good English with little or no French accent. He has
03:25:28 little or no French accent. He has possibly spent time in England. He introduced himself as privacy. They were shown the items and then drove with the contact a short way from Marseilles to prove the items. Just pausing there. Do
03:25:46 prove the items. Just pausing there. Do you have any interaction uh with someone uh who could be described as of North African appearance? None whatsoever. We met no one in Marseilles other than in casual form by which I mean hotel receptionist or
03:25:59 which I mean hotel receptionist or waiter. But under no circumstances did this event happen. I met no French North African. We did not sit in any cafe. This this did not happen.
03:26:13 This this did not happen. It goes on. Initially the contact wanted his two mates to travel in the back of the vehicle with him. MT was not happy with this and insisted in sitting in the back seat with the contact with L3
03:26:28 back seat with the contact with L3 driving. The other two were left behind to catch a taxi. MT directed where L3 should drive, which was not the direction favored by the contact. MT feels he may have shown out a little as until this moment he had been the acquis
03:26:39 until this moment he had been the acquis acquiescing of the two. However, he felt decidedly uneasy about being in the vehicle with three strangers who were probably armed. They stopped the vehicle a short distance from Marles and L3 checked the weapon. What was your reaction to reading that those
03:26:51 reaction to reading that those sentences, but the reference in particular to you checking the weapon? Yes, when I I read I couldn't believe what I was reading. I I I simply I
03:27:04 what I was reading. I I I simply I simply Yeah, if I hadn't been sat down, I think I would have fallen down. This is absolute nonsense that there was no weapon. And and to be honest, the the way this is it's all I mean, anybody looking at this in a sort of bird's eye
03:27:17 looking at this in a sort of bird's eye view would see this is nonsense. I mean, I have absolutely no idea how you go about buying an illegal weapon. But if this is how you go about it, then I can't believe you're going to walk
03:27:30 I can't believe you're going to walk away from this un unscathed. It seems insanity.
03:27:34 insanity. Handing over £700 was How much cash did you bring on the trip? As I I think I said in my state, if I if I had had £700 in those days, I'd have felt like I'd won the lottery. No, I
03:27:45 felt like I'd won the lottery. No, I there was no £700. They then stashed the gun and the black powder in the compartment behind the rear seat and placed the ammunition in a torch. Were you aware of any compartment in James Thompson's car?
03:27:59 Thompson's car? No, I was no more aware of any any hidden compartment than I was a gun, a firearm, or I mean ammunition or black powder. It's it's all it's all make believe.
03:28:11 believe. parking the car near the hotel deposed that the vehicle was too tall for the underground car parks. Does that ring any bells? The car was certainly parked on the street and it was very close in
03:28:24 street and it was very close in proximity to the hotel. So, yeah, I won't argue with that. Uh, and we can see this document goes on to describe uh James Thompson uh giving you the news about the car supposedly
03:28:37 you the news about the car supposedly being uh stolen. I wonder if we could u now move to um a further document. It is
03:28:55 now move to um a further document. It is sir at your tab uh B23. [snorts] It is a document that we have already looked at in part but I wonder if we could just refer to it as MPSO5282.
03:29:12 And it is page two of this document where at paragraph two again we have the reference to a meeting in the cafe. But there's more
03:29:25 meeting in the cafe. But there's more detail because it says in the middle of the page the vehicle was located at 1:00
03:29:38 the page the vehicle was located at 1:00 a.m. The vehicle was recovered in such a manner as to simulate that it had been stolen. that the following items were secreted in the vehicle. One Colt 45 automatic handgun, 18 rounds of ammunition, two small bags of black powder, and then it says see attached photographs. And we have um photographs
03:29:57 photographs. And we have um photographs I'm going to ask to be put on screen. Uh firstly, the photograph of the gun. So at your tab B18, but it is MPS treble 4963.
03:30:01 Before
03:30:15 this photograph was disclosed to you by the inquiry, had you ever seen that gun? No, I had not. What was your reaction to seeing it for the first time in the photographs disclosed by the inquiry to you? Yes. Well, I was utterly shocked and I began it
03:30:30 I was utterly shocked and I began it began to dawn on me just um how serious
03:30:44 began to dawn on me just um how serious a situation I had unwittingly got myself into in offering to drive on a holiday. Um, it had never occurred to me in my wildest dreams that this is what was really going on behind the scenes and that my concocted little theory of a car being bugged was about as far away from
03:30:58 being bugged was about as far away from what was really going on behind my back as uh as could be the case. I' never seen that weapon before. I had no idea it was stashed in the vehicle. Um, clearly he
03:31:14 clearly he retained this weapon and that's possibly what the business in the bank was actually about. Not so much a small loan, but reacquiring a firearm which had been secreted earlier. There's a previous trip in
03:31:26 earlier. There's a previous trip in which I'm aware of that he took prior to operation lime. I assume that's when the vi that the weapon was deposited for
03:31:42 vi that the weapon was deposited for purposes of regaining it. And during the time that we were separated for a short while in Marseilles, he obviously reacquired the weapon and stowed it in the vehicle along with the ammunition and black powder.
03:31:57 and black powder. All the while I was doing nothing more than window shopping my way around Marseilles. Now just very briefly I want to show you just two other photographs. The next is B19 MPSO4969 which is the photograph of
03:32:12 which is the photograph of uh the bullets in the torch. You can see the torch is being opened
03:32:25 again that that torch the bullets. Any recollection of the of that? Absolutely none. No idea.
03:32:36 idea. And finally, the photograph of black powder, which is tab B17 MPS treble 4959.
03:32:52 Again, I've no idea what that is. I've never seen it before. It's the first time I ever saw any of this is when it was disclosed to me.
03:33:03 was disclosed to me. Again, it's a long time ago, but the bags, the the shopping bags, is is that is
03:33:10 is does that have any familiarity to you? None whatsoever, I'm afraid. No. And do you know what that is? No. Uh, it could be anything actually. It could be earth or coffee grounds or I have no idea. I want to ask you about
03:33:23 I want to ask you about and there's another reference to black powder and I wonder if we can go to that now. Is it tab B1A? It is MPS treble 1925.
03:33:47 So this is a report dated is another one of James Thompson's report and it goes back to the 23rd of March 1999. It doesn't mention you at all but I just want to ask you about this. So black powder gunpowder magenta triangle. It is believed that a quantity of black powder or gunpowder has been obtained by animal rights extremists.
03:34:04 obtained by animal rights extremists. The identities of the activists are not known but it is believed that they are based in the north of England. Are you able to shed any light on what that could be a reference to? So this is March 1999.
03:34:17 March 1999. So, nine months or so before the Yes, yeah, I see see the date. No, I have absolutely no idea what what's being referred to here. No knowledge of
03:34:28 being referred to here. No knowledge of it. And I wonder where he would get this information from. He that's not he wasn't deployed there to the best of my knowledge. How how would he know about this either? I I don't know what it is, sir. No, I'm sorry.
03:34:55 I would like to ask you um about another document which is at um tab B26. It is MPS074849 please.
03:35:21 Now you have said that apart from seeing uh James Thompson in Amsterdam also seeing HN26 there in 1998 and apart from the trip that you've just described to France that you never traveled um abroad with
03:35:32 that you never traveled um abroad with James Thompson. This note as you can see is dated the 17th of April 2001. Magenta
03:35:47 is dated the 17th of April 2001. Magenta Triangle proposed trip to Amsterdam with L2 and L3 and L4. You will be aware of the attempt by L2 and L3 to procure a firearm from a French associate in January this year. This was successfully frustrated following a complex operation in which Magenta Triangle played a
03:35:58 in which Magenta Triangle played a pivotal role. Since that operation, it appears that no suspicion has fallen upon MT and both L2 and L3 are content that the vehicle was stolen. And then this, the trial of L4's asalent is scheduled to begin on the 13th of
03:36:10 scheduled to begin on the 13th of November 2001. I'm just pausing there. Were you aware that uh L4's uh asalent, the person that ran him over uh was
03:36:25 the person that ran him over uh was taking place? Is that something that you kept tabs on or followed? Yes, we would have been aware of that. Yes. And then over the weekend 20th to the 21st of April, L4 will be in
03:36:42 the 21st of April, L4 will be in Amsterdam for a short holiday. L2 and L3 who have also invited MT uh will join him.
03:36:43 him. Do do you recall this at all? Not at all. To my knowledge, this this trip not only didn't happen, I don't I don't even remember it ever being
03:36:56 don't even remember it ever being discussed at all. And I question whether uh L4
03:37:02 uh L4 would have been able to make that trip. I don't know. What is this? April now and his injuries were the September previous year. I mean, it's possible, but I don't know. I I don't I don't think so. Um I don't remember this ever being discussed
03:37:25 to ask you about another uh trip. It's at sir your tab B31. It is MPS treble 6714.
03:37:47 So this document September 2001, it's authority for James uh Thompson uh to uh travel to uh Jakarta. And in the middle of this document, you can see the second paragraph. It refers to the dropping of charges by the CPS uh
03:37:59 to the dropping of charges by the CPS uh following the imprisonment for unrelated offenses of the main prosecution witnesses in sensed activists and caused two of their number to express a desire to kill L4's asalant.
03:38:10 to kill L4's asalant. Now, in relation to the trial against L4's asalant, as it's described here, what was the reaction when he wasn't
03:38:23 what was the reaction when he wasn't when it didn't result in a conviction? Yes. Well, as you can imagine, um we weren't exactly very pleased about
03:38:39 weren't exactly very pleased about the result. Um, but to be honest, I think everybody just simply felt depressed and deflated and um, cynically felt that um, the justice
03:38:52 um, cynically felt that um, the justice system was not there for us and that it protected the powerful and the wealthy and that all of all of our negative thoughts would have been expressed. Therefore,
03:39:04 Therefore, but under no circumstances was was there suddenly a desire to kill anybody. That that's not true. What is set out here is that Magenta
03:39:15 What is set out here is that Magenta Triangle, a close field associate of L4, has agreed to travel to Jakarta to seek his views. He will obviously wish to report to the activists that L4 does not countenance violence against his asalants. And then the next paragraph,
03:39:29 asalants. And then the next paragraph, L4 is presently working for privacy on a contract in Indonesia and will not return to the UK before the new year. Authorities therefore sought for Magenta Triangle to travel to Jakarta on the 13th of September and to leave on the
03:39:42 13th of September and to leave on the 18th of September. This will allow him three days to council L4. And then it refers to DCI Dale traveling in support attention to the unstable situation in
03:39:56 attention to the unstable situation in Indonesia and Magenta Triangle will not engage in any other activity connected with his SDS operation. So what's set out here is that James Thompson is going to Jakarta for a few days to try and persuade L4 uh not to uh suggest that uh
03:40:14 persuade L4 uh not to uh suggest that uh there should be uh violent repercussions resulting from the fact that L4's asalent was not con convicted. Can you remember anything about this trip? M that that certainly seems to be the
03:40:26 that that certainly seems to be the impression that you're given when you read this, but that's that's not my memory of it at all. And that there was I don't I don't believe that Thompson was persuaded to go and um
03:40:40 was persuaded to go and um to go and see L4. Um L4 at this point was back to work. He was working in Indonesia. Um of course, any news of
03:40:51 Indonesia. Um of course, any news of this nature he was going to receive was going to hit him hard. Then it was known
03:41:05 Then it was known he was in a low mood at this point. His partner is the one who initiated these thoughts to us and was very worried about him and wanted someone there with him. Basically she was not able to go herself. She had too many commitments. Um, so she looked to someone close to him to
03:41:23 so she looked to someone close to him to offer him that support so that he wasn't going to be there alone. Um, I regret very much that um
03:41:35 that one of us didn't go because we should have done. It should not have been him because his intention was not
03:41:46 been him because his intention was not there to support L4. quite the opposite that that that man was in a bad way at this point. Um he was in a very bad way. He needed somebody there who was genuine and honest and supportive, not someone who was there to
03:42:00 was there to use him, which is what is what subsequently happened.
03:42:08 Now you you have read uh James Thompson's statement. I have. Yes. again in terms of your reaction when he says in his statements that for example there's no element of exaggeration in the information he provides to the SDS
03:42:21 the information he provides to the SDS that he didn't fabricate this gun plot at all that you and he did receive a gun when you read that uh statement again not from 20 years ago but James
03:42:32 not from 20 years ago but James Thompson's statement to the inquiry what reaction do you have in your own mind when you read that for the first time
03:42:48 time it's nothing but fabrication. It's all embellishment. There's it's difficult to separate where the truth is. There's so little of it. Um everything that he has supposedly accounted for in what we know as
03:42:59 accounted for in what we know as Operation Lime is simply not true. It was made up. He um I think there's a variety of reasons why he did this and we mustn't forget that
03:43:10 he did this and we mustn't forget that in doing so he was equally deceiving his own people as well as us. In fact, everybody but himself was was being deceived by this fake operation.
03:43:21 fake operation. Um
03:43:26 Um it was suggested that his deployment was due to come to an end and it's my thought that in an attempt to prolong that deployment which he would have wanted because of his association with
03:43:38 wanted because of his association with Ellie and because it seems to have been very financially lucrative to him to be in this deployment that he wanted it to continue as long as possible. I mean he was having a great time. He was
03:43:50 was having a great time. He was traveling the world. He was being paid overtime to essentially have a good time with his friends and be with his girlfriend. Why wouldn't you want that to continue? So, he came up with a scheme
03:44:06 So, he came up with a scheme in order to maintain that deployment and and and a great lifestyle. And um I support what I'm saying here by the fact that if you if you look at the so-called
03:44:23 that if you if you look at the so-called intelligence reports that he was filing, apart from the fact there are huge gaps where he filed nothing at all. If you separate out from his intelligence reports all of the gossip and the title and the
03:44:40 and the title and the news of the world style repotage, what what you're left with is so thin, so unimportant that unless he embellished, I think he'd have been filing blank pieces of paper that there just simply
03:44:51 pieces of paper that there just simply wasn't any intelligence. And the reason for that is because we really weren't doing anything of interest to an organization like the SDS that there's no reason why they should have shown such interest in us whatsoever. We we just simply didn't merit it. That any
03:45:05 just simply didn't merit it. That any information that they wanted about us would have been obtainable through other opportunities which would have been 10 times cheaper than employing him. in relation to his
03:45:17 employing him. in relation to his intelligence reporting that you've just referred to. I wonder if I may just bring your attention to two reports which I know that you've seen before. So the first is at your tab B25. It's MPS treble 5473.
03:45:35 treble 5473. Th this relates to at locating where L4's asalent as it was previously described as who's been given the cipher L5. So this report March 2001
03:45:49 L5. So this report March 2001 and this refers to privacy a longtime if regular member of the cudden hunt sabs is claiming to have discovered the home address of the man accused of running down fellow saboter L4 in August of last year. Privacy believes the asalent L5
03:46:04 year. Privacy believes the asalent L5 resides in the Crawley area of West uh Sussex and the report goes on. Now, you've already referred in a different context to home visits, but this report
03:46:20 context to home visits, but this report seems to suggest that one person thought that they had identified where he lived or certainly that was even in 2001 something that was going on, i.e. trying to find out where L5 lived. Could you just help us with what you recall of any
03:46:35 just help us with what you recall of any attempts to identify where L5 lived? it. There was no attempt to try and find him, but we we knew almost immediately from from information gained after his arrest
03:46:44 arrest um
03:46:55 um the day or the day after um the assault on L4 that that this guy was described as being a man of straw, that he he lived
03:46:57 lived a very obscure lifestyle and his whereabouts would were unknown to even those who knew. knew him. And no,
03:47:13 even those who knew. knew him. And no, it just it isn't the case. We we put no time and effort into trying to find um the man we're calling L5. We we didn't attempt to locate locate him. And
03:47:25 And and remember at this point that there's still some hope in that he's been arrested and the the case has been forwarded to the the CPS. So we're we're hopeful at this stage that he is going
03:47:42 hopeful at this stage that he is going to face trial for attempting to murder L4. So we would not have wanted to interfere with that process. Now, I know that you're aware. I'm not going to um put it up on screen, but
03:47:53 going to um put it up on screen, but just for our reference, it's NPSO5752, which is the report that essentially corrects the position here, which says word to the effect that no, in fact,
03:48:05 word to the effect that no, in fact, L5's home has not been identified. But I would like to ask you about a report. So, it's at your B38. It is MPS Treble 8258, please.
03:48:32 I would like to ask you about the detail of the language used in this report by James Thompson dated the 5th of March 2002. ALF target L5. What is the ALF? Well, the uh the letters stand for Animal Liberation Front. How would you characterize that organization in 2002?
03:48:52 organization in 2002? Uh, it was an organization dedicated to nonviolent direct action um in an attempt to liberate animals.
03:48:59 If we go through the report, L5, the hunt supporter deemed responsible for driving over and seriously injuring Hunt Saboter L4 in September 2000, has been successfully housed by ALF activist to address on the outskirts of Crawley,
03:49:12 address on the outskirts of Crawley, Sussex, and then source comment. Since being identified as the person responsible for L4's injuries, L5 has become a high-profile hate figure for animal rights activists. This
03:49:23 animal rights activists. This information may now provide a focus and opportunity for extremist elements within the animal liberation front to cause serious injury to L5.
03:49:34 cause serious injury to L5. There may be a real danger of L5 being seriously harmed. It is unlikely that further information about this matter will be obtained. You're not mentioned in this report, but there is a reference to extremist elements with the within
03:49:51 to extremist elements with the within the animal liberation uh front. uh and causing serious injury to L5. Could I ask for your reaction to uh reading that and the language used? Yes, I don't recognize this at all. That's it's um again it's it's just
03:50:03 That's it's um again it's it's just trying to inflame a situation that that does not depict the real situation. Um I uh I recognize the date is now we're on
03:50:15 uh I recognize the date is now we're on a bit, aren't we? Here it's March. It's March 2002. So, um I'm trying to trying to recollect where we were at that point in the
03:50:27 where we were at that point in the timeline of uh uh the legal process by which L4 was going through. Um and therefore, it's my belief that
03:50:40 Um and therefore, it's my belief that there was still some hope that um there was going to be resolution through the courts against L5. Um and that well I just refute entirely that there was any plan to cause this individual serious harm. Um I won't deny
03:50:59 individual serious harm. Um I won't deny that. I mean we yes he he was a disliked individual to put it mildly. Of course he was. He'd attempted to kill one of our friends but um we were not planning to harm him. We were planning to see it through and hope that justice would prevail.
03:51:14 prevail. I I would like to turn to the way in which
03:51:16 which you and also your brother have been characterized by James Thompson in the
03:51:29 characterized by James Thompson in the documentation and I would like I wonder if so it's at your tab B1 I wonder if you can just pull up on screen it's MPS052680
03:52:07 Now, if you could turn to page three. So, this is a an authorization document for James Thompson. And on page three of this document,
03:52:21 it refers to
03:52:23 to an occasion when your brother was arrested charged with conspiracy to commit arson and the case being withdrawn. And then if you turn over the page please,
03:52:48 you will see that there is a uh reference uh on the uh next page under
03:52:54 G information intelligence.
03:53:04 to L2. Sorry. The close-knit nature of the animal rights movement has meant that there has been widespread outrage about the incident amongst activists across the country. Those most angered by the incident, however, his personal friend and associates amongst them
03:53:17 friend and associates amongst them fellow activist L2. And then L2 has been extremely active within the animal rights movement for many years. His activity have ranged across the country. Although recently he has concentrated
03:53:28 Although recently he has concentrated his efforts on the ultimately successful campaign to close down Shamrock Farm in Sussex, an establishment specializing in the breeding of primates for vivction. Tactics used in this campaign in which L2 was a central figure took the form of
03:53:42 L2 was a central figure took the form of intimidation tactics ranging from verbal and written threats to arson attacks. And so what is set out uh here [snorts]
03:53:55 And so what is set out uh here [snorts] is that um your uh brother is in a close uh knit animal rights uh movement and they have uh in involved themselves in uh intimidation tactics and threats to
03:54:09 uh intimidation tactics and threats to commit arson. Now this is set out as a justification for James Thompson's deployment. And I would like your uh reaction to the accuracy of what is set out here.
03:54:18 out here. Yes. Well, you've just you've taken the the words from me. This is this is a deliberate picture being painted to make us appear far more extreme than we actually are. Because
03:54:31 actually are. Because if a genuine report about what we were doing went in, there would have been no
03:54:42 doing went in, there would have been no justification for the deployment. So it was in his interests to make us appear uh like some crazed um
03:54:55 uh like some crazed um group of individuals hellbent on on what what he's discussed here. But nothing ever nothing ever comes with detail. It's all it's just it's just in the the scantist we just expected to take his word for it. This
03:55:08 expected to take his word for it. This isn't this is not true. the the campaign at Shamrock Farm, for example, was an intensive campaign um using legal tactics. Um I've mentioned home visits before, and we've talked about the fact that they were controversial, but that
03:55:23 that they were controversial, but that did not make them illegal. Um these were the tactics that were used to um to close this premises down. Um and the rest of it again it's just it's it's to justify
03:55:39 it's to justify a prolonged engagement in which there was really no justification.
03:55:46 May I turn to a report? So it's at your B2 specifically in relation uh to you and what James Thompson reports about you. And again I just want to put this up on screen for your comment. So we've
03:56:00 up on screen for your comment. So we've just looked at an authorization document which sort of setting out the justification or the justification that's put put forward for the deployment. But one of the reports that James Thompson
03:56:11 James Thompson provides
03:56:13 provides is um MPSO286.
03:56:26 So this And you've seen this report before, I think. So I have 19th of January 2000. And so he refers to you um in
03:56:37 you um in Finland and there's a reference to destroying some hunting towers and you described what a hunting tower is earlier in your evidence and receiving a fine. So this is uh what is your
03:56:52 fine. So this is uh what is your reaction to the content and accuracy of that report, please? Um I haven't sorry the accuracy rather than the language. Yes. Yes. It's not untrue. You distinguish between the two. What about the language? What?
03:57:04 about the language? What? Yeah. Sorry. I'd need to scan read it again. Um I don't know if uh meanwhile he doubtlessly. Oh yes. Here we go. The last that's that last par. I mean again
03:57:17 last that's that last par. I mean again this is sensationalism. He's he's making assumptions. He's he he's subjectifying the information which should be absolutely opaque and it's for the reader to make up their mind. He's not allowing that to happen. He's he's directing your thought. He will
03:57:31 directing your thought. He will doubtless busy himself in AR and rights activity whilst he is back in the UK considering the caliber of his fellow and then we get no more. But I can infer what he's trying to suggest here. That
03:57:47 what he's trying to suggest here. That I'm going to be led down into far more extreme actions now that I'm back. That's not his place to do that.
03:57:56 That's not his place to do that. I want to just turn to one last document in relation to how you're portrayed on the in the documentation. It is, sir, it's your tab B41A. It is NPS071972.
03:58:09 Okay. Now, in this document at paragraph 2.1,
03:58:18 with the benefit of hindsight, DS Thompson's SDS operation seems to fall into two distinct phases. Initially targeted against extremist animal rights activists in the South London area in early 1997, he quickly established
03:58:32 early 1997, he quickly established himself at the forefront of hunt sabotur activity in the southern home counties. His performance was evidenced by the quality of his reporting and there is little doubt particularly from some of the injuries sustained by him over the course of the next two years that his operation was both effective and
03:58:47 operation was both effective and thorough. Underlying his involvement on the hunt SAB scene was always an objective to penetrate an ALF cell. Relatively early in his operation, DS
03:58:59 Relatively early in his operation, DS Thompson's assessment was that the L2 and L3 brothers, L2 and L3, together with L1 and privacy, appeared to be the most likely candidates for ALF terrorist activity. He therefore set out to
03:59:15 activity. He therefore set out to establish himself as an integral member of their circle. You described here in
03:59:30 of their circle. You described here in these terms again. What is your response to reading this document which comments on the quality and thoroughess of 16's um of James Thompson's reporting and describing you as being in a cell with your brother and being likely candidates for ALF terrorist activity?
03:59:46 for ALF terrorist activity? No, it it's it's not accurate. He's looking in all the wrong places. It's if if he if his genuine intention was to uh
03:59:59 was to uh penetrate an ALF cell, then he looked in the wrong place. Our actions were overtly open and public and available for anyone to see. We were part of a huntab group. We were part of a a
04:00:12 huntab group. We were part of a a campaigning group which ostensibly is wide open. It's it's not secretive. It's public. It's quite the reverse that by by the very definition it's people
04:00:24 by the very definition it's people who had taken their level of protest to that level of extremes did not appear in the public way that we did. They they they would have kept themselves
04:00:36 they would have kept themselves out of the public gaze. They would not have been with us. They would they would have been hidden away. He was he was never going to find what what he was after there. What what he found in L1,
04:00:55 after there. What what he found in L1, two, and three is three people that were committed to hunt sabotage and people who were committed to closing down a primate breeder. Um that was not that was not ALF activity. It it was legal activity. And uh well, sorry to jump. This just
04:01:11 And uh well, sorry to jump. This just just goes back again to me to me wanting to highlight the fact that in order to maintain this deployment, he was almost effectively forced to embellish his reporting because if if he had simply
04:01:23 reporting because if if he had simply reported what we were actually doing, it would have brought into question his deployment and and risked it coming to an end quite quickly because virtually everything we were doing was available for scrutiny by local
04:01:40 available for scrutiny by local policing. units, not not some not not some central spy cop unit. We it would not have been necessary. I mean, you've heard evidence in the past, I think, given by
04:01:57 in the past, I think, given by colleagues that we knew that they were intercepting our phone calls. We knew this to be the case. Um given the distance between myself and um and other members of our SAB group, all of our communications would have been telephonic.
04:02:09 telephonic. They could have they could have discovered 90% of what we were up to just by listening to us. That they didn't need this. So in order for him to be in place,
04:02:22 be in place, he would have to have embellished those reports um in order to sustain his activity. And if further proof was was needed of the fact that
04:02:36 proof was was needed of the fact that I'm making, then I would it's not for my place to draw your attention to a document, but in his statement at points, if you don't mind, I'm referring to my own notes. In his statement at points 218 and 234,
04:02:49 points 218 and 234, it even mentions that his own boss described his last two and a half years
04:03:02 described his last two and a half years as a sham and that his intelligence was not worthy, that he was not supplying them with details at all. Um, it's interesting to me, I've had time to think about this. have had time to think about this a lot more than others perhaps. But it's interesting that what
04:03:18 perhaps. But it's interesting that what they describe as being the height of SDS operations in the late 90s, early 2000s was also coincidentally the height of the very extremism in animal rights he was seeking to look at. That doesn't compute, does it? If they
04:03:34 That doesn't compute, does it? If they were doing such a great job, why did the level of extreme activity in the animal rights movement increase at the same time as their own deployments did? They weren't being very effective. That is because they were looking in the wrong place. They were looking for the easy targets, the people they could get to,
04:03:46 targets, the people they could get to, the people they could invagle themselves with like SAB groups because we are open by the very nature of what we do. The very people he actually wanted to get close to would have been impossible for
04:03:59 close to would have been impossible for him to get close to. because they would not have entertained someone like him amongst them. The only place he had to go was to us. But we were not doing the
04:04:10 go was to us. But we were not doing the sort of things he needed us to be doing. You mentioned James Thompson's statement. I would like to take you to that now. In fact though, in relation to a different topic in relation to another
04:04:23 a different topic in relation to another false identity that James Thompson used, Kevin Crossland. Um, so I'm moving to James Thompson's statement. It's page 42. The UCPI number is 3 treble 53. It's page 42, paragraph 112.
04:04:48 page 42, paragraph 112. Um, just for context, L3, this morning we before you gave evidence, we heard evidence from Lisa uh Crossland, and
04:04:50 and I would like to um ask you uh some questions relevant to the evidence that she gave. So, paragraph 112 on page 42. Uh, I have been referred to
04:05:06 on page 42. Uh, I have been referred to page six of the document titled debrief at MPS07282. Uh, and it's the bit that's quoted here. Initially establishing an alternate identity on the voters's register and
04:05:17 identity on the voters's register and billing accounts was done to provide an easy out for one, two, or three. These
04:05:27 easy out for one, two, or three. These are the ciphers that have been used when detained by police for offenses such as aggravated trespass committed whilst sabbing or during other low-key AR activity where bail was likely to be given given if simple checks proved
04:05:41 given given if simple checks proved satisfactory. A similar scheme was to be used by JS James Straven and one or two other members of the group at another address. Like so many matters that seemed of no moment at the time any
04:05:53 seemed of no moment at the time any discussion with the office was informal. I was therefore content that although the name had been given to Surrey or Sussex police on two occasions, no record was held at SDS when I subsequently decided to further establish this alternate identity with a view to traveling under the name post
04:06:04 view to traveling under the name post operation. Being a party to such dodges to avoid police action with close members of the ungodly, whilst not technically necessary, were and are to my mind essential in providing the depth of character essential for JS to be
04:06:15 of character essential for JS to be accepted through the core of this target group's criminality. And then so just to put this in context, the one two or three that's was used, this is over
04:06:28 three that's was used, this is over initials. And you can see at paragraph 112.2 two uh James Thompson in his statement said, "I believe that two is a reference to L3." So he's saying, "Initially establishing an alternate identity on the voters register and billing accounts was done to provide an
04:06:42 billing accounts was done to provide an easy out for well you." Suggesting that this is an idea that you uh and others came up with to have an alternative uh identity so that if you are arrested,
04:06:54 identity so that if you are arrested, you give this identity. it's actually has basis uh in other documentation increasing the chances of you being granted bail. What's your reaction to that please?
04:07:12 that please? Yes, this is just another outrageous attempt to um deflect the fact that he took the identity of a dead child for his own benefit. We did not attempt to initiate or establish alternate identities.
04:07:23 identities. uh on the voters's register or billing accounts or any such thing. Um we never attempted that and had he spoken to me about such things I think it would have piqued our interest and we'd have asked
04:07:43 piqued our interest and we'd have asked him a great deal more questions. I have no idea how you'd go about doing that. We didn't do it and um in terms of it being an easy out when detained by police.
04:07:47 police. We had basically accepted at this point that
04:07:53 that if we were detained by an actual arrest when out protesting the hunts that you basically had to use your real details because if you didn't,
04:08:07 because if you didn't, you were unlikely to be bailed. And if by some pure fluke you were bailed, it would still be counterproductive
04:08:18 it would still be counterproductive because at that point you could never really be seen again. Um because
04:08:25 what I'm trying to say is that our actions were as I've mentioned very open and broad and uh not clandestine in nature. And
04:08:37 and uh not clandestine in nature. And therefore, if we had used some sort of false identity with the police, how could we then go about continuing what we wanted to do as our stated objectives, we we we simply wouldn't have been able to do it. You'd have been on effectively on the run. Um, no one
04:08:50 on effectively on the run. Um, no one used that false that level of intrigue to to to develop a false identity. that the only occasion in which I can remember
04:09:00 remember using an alias not not a false identity
04:09:11 using an alias not not a false identity is when dealing with the media and that was purely to protect myself. Um I I wonder if you can clarify um just a point that is referred to paragraph 113 in James Thompson's
04:09:22 to paragraph 113 in James Thompson's statement again following the evidence we heard this morning. So at paragraph 113,
04:09:35 113, James Thompson says, "I've been referred to the document to page 11 of MPSO7289, which is signed by DCS Black, page 12, dated 19th of September 02, in which he states that quote, the Crossland
04:09:50 states that quote, the Crossland identity is known to both L2 or L3, and to a former non SDSSB officer, further risking his compromise. I do not remember ever discussing this with DCS Black and do not know why he believed L2 or L3
04:09:58 or L3 uh and a former non SDSSB officer were aware of the cross identity. I have no recollection of telling anybody of the
04:10:09 recollection of telling anybody of the Crossland identity. Um I cannot assist as to which of L2 or L3 was being referred to in this note. Just to be clear, as far as you're concerned, did James Thompson ever use the name Kevin
04:10:22 James Thompson ever use the name Kevin Crossland in your presence at any time? Not that I can recall at all. No. No.
04:10:47 I'm going to just ask you in relation to um
04:10:52 um two topics which I will try to deal with in a few minutes. Sir, are you content to continue to finish this part of the hearing? Yes.
04:11:07 this part of the hearing? Yes. The first is in relation to an article which is set out in the last tab of the bundle.
04:11:08 bundle. It is B44. It is UCPI 35 treble 2.
04:11:23 This is an online um article by the Undercover Research Group which we've printed out for this uh bundle. In fact, I'd like you please just to turn to page 22 in this because on page 22 is the
04:11:50 22 in this because on page 22 is the part that sets out the footnotes. And if we look at footnote number seven, there is reference to an interview with John Sudinum on the 18th of November 2018. That is a reference to you. Is that right?
04:11:56 right? I believe it is. Yes. And the the name John would have been applied to me by the research group. And how did it come about that you gave an interview with the undercover
04:12:08 an interview with the undercover research group in November of 2018? So by
04:12:10 So by by this point um the true identity of Thompson was known and
04:12:20 and uh the uh research group was beginning to collect data on what appeared to be more than just a single or a couple of
04:12:32 more than just a single or a couple of instances of undercover policing. They were beginning to sort of blow it up wide as to what had really been going on. And
04:12:49 on. And people were coming forward left, right, and center to give evidence of how they had been affected by this
04:12:51 this SDS deployments. Um, and I was one of those people that was prepared to talk about it. Um, I'm going to deal with it in this way
04:13:03 I'm going to deal with it in this way given the time. I'm just going to just
04:13:14 given the time. I'm just going to just to point out where your footnote number seven appears in the document. So, we can see on page three, it is halfway down the first paragraph on on page three where we can see the seven. And are you familiar with this particular article?
04:13:27 article? Yes, but I've I've not read it that recently. Sorry, I'm just letting somebody catch up and um I can't see seven.
04:13:38 seven. So, James said he was the son of a Scottish lead and that his father had an army background. Those two stories kept coming back in interviews, though details are vague and divergent. There was a family association with a small Scottish village. He claimed his family had their own pew in the local church and then seven is the footnote.
04:13:51 and then seven is the footnote. Yes. Yes, that's yes. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Um forgive me for the pacing going through this. If we turn over to page four under the heading family, we can see in the second sentence, others say he was divorced with two late teenage
04:14:05 he was divorced with two late teenage daughters, but they did not discuss his family much with him. And then we can see one of the footnotes you were given as a reference. Seven. Seven.
04:14:11 Seven. Um,
04:14:13 Um, others uh say he was divorced with two late teenager and did not discuss. Yes. Yes. That's Yes. Yeah. Um, under personality on that same page, second paragraph under personality, last
04:14:26 paragraph under personality, last sentence, some people remember him being a vegetarian while Sara is sure he was vegan. Is that something you recall and um provided to the undercover research group for them to compile this document? I'm sure it was. Yes. Yeah.
04:14:42 I'm sure it was. Yes. Yeah. Bottom of page five, please. Last sentence. The Land Rover had a sticker on the windscreen saying film unit. John has a clear memory of James parking the
04:14:53 has a clear memory of James parking the car at a demo and not worrying about the parking place, citing the sticker to keep him out of trouble. Correct. Yes. Strain would not drive the group's van to go out sabbing. He would be a passenger in the back of the rest of the group. His own car was used to drive people to demonstrations.
04:15:05 people to demonstrations. I apologize. Straan would not drive the group's van to go out sabbing. He would be a passenger in the back with the rest of the group. His own car was used to
04:15:16 of the group. His own car was used to drive people to demonstrations and he would lend it to people. Yes, that's correct.
04:15:27 Yes, that's correct. There's a quote uh then attributed to you that you James lent me his car for a week one time whilst he was abroad for work. Uh I think and again is that yes that's that's accurate. Yeah. Uh I'm going to uh not refer to every single
04:15:43 going to uh not refer to every single quote from you, but I would like to ask you briefly about page 16, please. On page 16,
04:15:45 page 16, there is a heading uh France. And again, in relation to this section, your uh footnote number seven appears.
04:15:59 your uh footnote number seven appears. Are you the source of this information? Yes. Yes, that's correct. Obviously, you'll understand that this now um deviates
04:16:10 deviates away from what I now know because at this point this is this is an interview given based upon my assumptions of the
04:16:21 given based upon my assumptions of the time and not based upon information in disclosure. So there will be in inaccuracies in this but but yes it's it's it's my it's my words. Yeah. Whilst we have this page, if we just look above, there's a reference to India. It
04:16:33 above, there's a reference to India. It says Straven went to India in late 1999
04:16:44 says Straven went to India in late 1999 uh with some people from the Cuden Hunt SAB group to visit friends who had set up a cat and dog rescue center there. Is is there any do you have any recollection of James Thompson going to India on any
04:16:57 James Thompson going to India on any occasions that you knew him at the time? Yeah. More more taxpayer funded
04:17:08 Yeah. More more taxpayer funded holidays. Yes. Yes, he did go out there. Um I didn't. Um the rescue center was associated with
04:17:11 with exgirlfriends of L's one and two to the best of my recollection. And that was the reason why they had more of an
04:17:28 was the reason why they had more of an uh an inkling to go there. I I did not go to India but yes he went he he he accompanied them on one of those trips. Yeah.
04:17:34 Yeah. Any trips to Goa in particular? That is where I believe the to the best of my recollection is where the um rescue center was in and around that
04:17:48 rescue center was in and around that part of part of India. Can you remember how many times he might have gone to Goa?
04:17:52 Goa? I'd be guessing. I think it was just the once, but I can't be certain.
04:18:00 The interview that's referred to in the Powerbase Undercover Research Group um document, that interview is the 18th of November 2018.
04:18:14 your statement is dated the 28th of October
04:18:16 October 2025.
04:18:24 2025. Can you explain um how it came about that you provided uh a statement to the inquiry uh essentially last week? How did that come about? Please, could you help us? Yes, I uh I apologize for my
04:18:36 help us? Yes, I uh I apologize for my delay here, but to be perfectly honest, I mean, I I'm I was aware that this inquiry had been established, although I wasn't quite aware of how far you'd got. Um I wasn't paying that much attention.
04:18:52 Um I wasn't paying that much attention. And if I'm perfectly honest, I really up until recently didn't think I had very much to offer you beyond what others would have already told you. I I really did not see that I had very much of importance
04:19:04 importance to import you. I beg I beg you pardon. It's it was only as I began to hear testimony by people I actually once knew that it piqued my interest and I began
04:19:16 that it piqued my interest and I began to think, oh hang on, what? That's not quite right. Um, and
04:19:26 and it led to me realizing that a lot of my presumptions about what had happened back at the time we were discussing, particularly that of Operation Lime was
04:19:37 particularly that of Operation Lime was not true and that there was a great deal more to it than I realized and that I
04:19:50 more to it than I realized and that I would like an opportunity to understand more and that it should not pass without an opportunity to counter it, especially as more detail became available to me and I offered my
04:20:05 became available to me and I offered my myself to the inquiry. I would have come forward much much earlier had I had I had any idea of what I was about to read. When when was the moment that you first discovered that you had all those years ago been implicated in operation lime?
04:20:20 lime? Um things moved very quickly when I made myself available. Not least because of course your own time schedule was very very tight. So um it was the 17th of
04:20:32 very tight. So um it was the 17th of October which was the date that Sara gave evidence. And when I finished listening to it in real time, as it were, um, I sent an email to the inquiry.
04:20:46 inquiry. I just want to give you an opportunity to to respond to this. Where you're sitting now, tomorrow, James Thompson will be sitting and providing his his evidence.
04:21:01 and providing his his evidence. Now, I just want to ask you again about in terms of the timing that you provided your statement. if there was any suggestion that there was you didn't come forward to the inquiry say years ago because you were involved
04:21:14 ago because you were involved to some extent in in in criminality. What what would you say about that? No, no, the complete opposite. I I didn't come forward because I really just didn't think that what I was up to in terms of hunt sabotage and in terms
04:21:29 in terms of hunt sabotage and in terms of um public engagement events would be of any interest to you. I I really I really just thought I was I was such a minnow that um I would have nothing to offer you. Um and it only became clear to me
04:21:40 to me what had been going on behind the scenes unwittingly to my knowledge um very much later and in fact at the 11th hour
04:21:53 later and in fact at the 11th hour in terms of the that self-escription as as a minnow if there was again in terms of if it is referred to in in the future in evidence when James Thompson gives
04:22:07 in evidence when James Thompson gives evidence that you were you were not a minnow in any way that you were, for example, involved in criminality, including public disorder. Would you would you agree with that in any way?
04:22:22 would you agree with that in any way? No, I would not. And I fully expect him to do that because he's going to want to paint me and and other people you've heard from and L's one to four, he's going to want to paint us all in that light because what else can he do? Um, but it is not true.
04:22:36 else can he do? Um, but it is not true. If he suggests that you well you were at least involved in say aggravated trespass. Is that something that Yes. Well um bear in mind that across the time scale of this that that particular piece of legislation came in
04:22:52 particular piece of legislation came in um during the time we were uh sabotaging hunts. And so at times that that that would not have been a criminal offense. Um it would have been still a civil matter. Um, and that aggravated trespass
04:23:06 matter. Um, and that aggravated trespass only became an offense at a later stage. But yes, I I mean, yes, I I did commit aggravated trespass. Yes, I I'll admit to that.
04:23:14 to that. What about James Thompson? Yes, of course. He'd have been stood right next to me. Yeah,
04:23:25 right next to me. Yeah, we've touched on this already, but I I want to focus on this in terms of what effect this has had on you personally, emotionally. reading document after document referring to you not going on a nice holiday to France,
04:23:38 holiday to France, but
04:23:42 but being implicated in a conspiracy to murder
04:23:50 murder with the use of a firearm to be imported into this country along with gunpowder. I think I'm still I think I'm still coming to terms with uh the revelation of of the of the what what could have been and that the whatif will probably stay with me for the rest of my life.
04:24:06 stay with me for the rest of my life. Now that um and though those suggestions are so serious that I can't imagine what could have potentially befallen me had they had they taken it to that level and and wanted to make an arrest.
04:24:18 and and wanted to make an arrest. What would have happened to me exactly? How has this affected me across the last 25 years of my life? Um, unbeknown to me, what what effect has it happened? And and would would it have led to
04:24:32 And and would would it have led to another massive miscarriage of justice? um
04:24:34 um uh had I been uh arrested for such um for such crimes um that I knew nothing of um and were the figment
04:24:46 of um and were the figment of a rather twisted imagination of of James Thompson who appears to have constructed this whole story in order to maintain his deployment using me as the
04:24:58 maintain his deployment using me as the puppet by which he could do so. I I was his fall guy. L3, I have no further questions for you. So, I don't know whether that is a convenient moment to rise briefly to see if others have questions. Well, [clears throat]
04:25:17 [clears throat] what we must do is to allow the shorthand writers a break. They've been at it unbroken for two and a quarter hours.
04:25:18 hours. How long do you want? 10 minutes, sir. 10 minutes. Very well. 10-minute break for you as well.
05:03:02 Yes,
05:03:16 L3, I do have some further questions and may I begin by asking you about what you referred to at the beginning of your evidence.
05:03:17 evidence. about in the mid 1990s gaining media experience. Now, you've been granted anonymity and I don't want you to refer to anything that will identify you. Uh
05:03:33 to anything that will identify you. Uh and so no uh employer's name or anything like that need be given, but could you assist us in relation to this? When you referred to gaining media experience,
05:03:44 referred to gaining media experience, what type of media experience did you gain?
05:03:48 gain? Um it was principally um radio interviews. Um for an environmental [clears throat] and um and a welfare organization abroad.
05:03:57 abroad. Um it was a wide variety of subject matters, but they were syndicated radio stations and therefore multiple interviews would be given on perhaps the same subject um
05:04:10 same subject um across a larger country than our own. Um, yes, that's essentially what it was. Did you receive any training, any media training for this?
05:04:22 training for this? Um,
05:04:23 Um, yes, a rudimentary training. It it wasn't very constructive. It was um it was just uh Yes. What What was it? was
05:04:34 was just uh Yes. What What was it? was shown how to perhaps redirect a question back to what the subject was rather than being diverted to um to something that's less important to talk about.
05:04:47 less important to talk about. I'm going to ask if you can be as specific as possible. Was it sort of one training event or was this regular training and again any detail you can provide in relation to that media training that you received?
05:05:04 training that you received? Um I wouldn't say it was regular. Um uh and it wasn't particularly formal. Um it wasn't a sort of interview type setting in which I was tested. It was more I think uh I think somebody would uh play the part of the
05:05:16 the part of the journalists for one of a better word and would um would pretend to question me and then um stop me when they felt that I hadn't um answered as well as I possibly could and maybe gave pointers
05:05:27 possibly could and maybe gave pointers to don't get fooled down this tangent. that's that's that's not what you want to be talking about. Or or if um or if the um the interviewer
05:05:42 the um the interviewer uh because of the nature of some of the radio stations, they um uh they were less formal um more
05:05:52 sort of news of the world than the Guardian. So, um, it was entirely possible that they would start ranting and raving and so on and and how to how to go about coping with that and not not falling into a trap and getting
05:06:05 falling into a trap and getting distracted or or becoming angry yourself.
05:06:13 yourself. Over over what period of time over sort of number of years were you in this role receiving
05:06:15 receiving as you say intermittently this this training informal though it may have been at times. Um I would have been in the role for about two years but I I
05:06:27 the role for about two years but I I wouldn't have received training during that time. It was only initially um
05:06:29 um across the first the initial weeks just the first few weeks possibly as I say it wasn't it wasn't particularly it wasn't an intensive course in any way
05:06:46 an intensive course in any way are you able to assist with whether or extent to which the person providing the training had any expertise in order to do so or if some time ago but can you help us with the level of that training whether it was informal or or done by a professional.
05:07:03 professional. Um, no, not not professionally. It was somebody from within the organization who just had more experience. Um, I don't think they were particularly qualified in it as such. I'd like to move to a separate topic and this is in relation to what you said in evidence about
05:07:16 evidence about a James Thompson failing to attend the protest on the 2nd of September and you indicated that that damaged his deployment from an undercover sense because
05:07:30 because certainly in your mind it really stood out and he should have been there in relation to the description ion that you gave that that damaged his deployment.
05:07:41 deployment. To what extent is that
05:07:46 is that an appropriate word to use in the context of of course not long after that you traveled uh to France with James
05:08:00 you traveled uh to France with James Thompson on any view for an extended period of time just the two of you essentially as you thought at the time as friends. Um, initially when I I first returned, we I we talked about how
05:08:17 returned, we I we talked about how um L's one, two, and four knew Thompson before I did because I returned to the UK uh a year into his deployment. And I was told at that point by one or other or more that they were suspicious of
05:08:33 or more that they were suspicious of Thompson and um the whole James Blonde bit again and just be careful perhaps what what you say because we're not sure of him. Um it is true to say that over
05:08:45 of him. Um it is true to say that over time those concerns lessened um and we were less concerned. But um the background to all this of course is the fact that possibly through our own naivity that we just really didn't
05:08:58 own naivity that we just really didn't feel we had very much to hide. And if he was some undercover whatever at that point he might have been an undercover journalist or he might have been the police or he might have been um private detective of some sort. All of these things had had tried to influence us
05:09:14 things had had tried to influence us before we we were susceptible to it all. And at the end we just thought, well, look, we can't prove any of this. It's just suspicion. We're never going to prove it. Um, either we accept him or we
05:09:31 prove it. Um, either we accept him or we don't. And besides, like, what's the big deal? You What is he going to find that that worries us? I mean, we we really didn't feel we were that important. Did you have anything to hide? No, not No. Above and beyond what I mean, I don't mean to belittle it. I
05:09:44 mean, I don't mean to belittle it. I mean, I' I've admitted to doing certain things, but um I think they're relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things, and I would have had that to hide.
05:09:51 hide. Forgive me for jumping around in relation to topics, but I'd now like to move to what you have set out in your witness statements. We've covered this
05:10:03 witness statements. We've covered this to some extent on the 2nd of September about the
05:10:06 about the meet that took place uh on the 2nd of September. It's paragraph if we can begin with paragraph 3.3 on page seven of L3's statement please.
05:10:22 please. Uh sorry give that page seven. Yes it's page seven. 3.3
05:10:30 3.3 I'm going to go through a number of paragraphs and then I'm going to ask you u some some questions if I may do it in that way. So 3.3 I was not present on the day when L4 was run over by a hunt supporter from the old surto hunt. I do remember going to the hospital that evening to see him. Elfor's partner was
05:10:45 evening to see him. Elfor's partner was in the hospital with him and he was on a life support machine. At the time, it looked absolutely dreadful. I'd never seen anything like it. I was in total shock. At this point, it was touchandgo as to whether L4 would live or not. 3.4.
05:10:57 as to whether L4 would live or not. 3.4. At the time we thought that L4 was about to become the third fatality amongst the hunts sabs after you would give the names of two
05:11:09 you would give the names of two individuals that uh died. Jumping to paragraph 3.6 over the page. My overwhelming feelings in the initial stage were shock, numbness, horror, sympathy towards L4 and concerned that
05:11:21 sympathy towards L4 and concerned that he might die. He was far from out of the woods at the time. I went to the hospital several times to see him and thankfully he did start to respond to treatment. Then jumping to paragraph 3.9. Once the initial phase of being
05:11:40 3.9. Once the initial phase of being shocked and appalled wore off, there was enormous anger about what had happened. This was evidenced by the fact that L4 received messages of support from all over the country. The day after L4 was run over on the 2nd of September 2000, there was a protest at the Kennels which
05:11:54 there was a protest at the Kennels which culminated in a number of arrests in the following days and possibly weeks. It was a reaction at the time. There was a
05:12:07 was a reaction at the time. There was a feeling amongst us of a need to show how angry we were about L4 being run over. a protest at the kennels of the hunt that was responsible for what happened to L4 was deemed the right thing to do as a show of support for him. And
05:12:19 as a show of support for him. And finally 3.12 when we got to the kennels privacy a leading figure in the hunt came out with another hunt servant and they had weapons there was an incident the main point is that was it that was the response the group who went to the
05:12:34 the response the group who went to the kennels was made up of men and women of all ages. a leading figure of this fox hunt was known to some of the Sabs and he had convictions for violence
05:12:47 he had convictions for violence at the what the incident the protest uh were police present? Yes. Yes, they were. You this is you the Kennels protests. Yes. Sorry. Yes, they were. Yes. Not many. Two as I remember unformed.
05:13:04 unformed. Um what did those two police officers do that you recall? largely nothing as I recall.
05:13:11 Were any arrests made on the day at the 2nd of September at that protest by the two officers? Yes. No. But
05:13:22 by the two officers? Yes. No. But I think that arrests may have been made on the day some short time later away from the canels. I'm not absolutely certain of
05:13:34 canels. I'm not absolutely certain of that. Was any property damaged during the protest? Yes, I think it probably was. Could you provide any more detail in terms of what property was damaged? So, I explained to you how
05:13:46 So, I explained to you how uh some of the members of the protest were attacked before I even reached the
05:13:57 were attacked before I even reached the gate, which was the sort of perimeter of the kennels. And at that point, things destabilized very quickly. And um naturally people started um fighting back and
05:14:06 back and yes there was it did culminate in there
05:14:18 yes there was it did culminate in there being damage to property as a result in the form of uh I think broken windows and possibly slates on the roof that sort of thing.
05:14:25 Did anyone during this protest the 2nd of September cover their faces?
05:14:31 Uh, yes. Sorry. Yes. I I was just trying to picture it. Yes, they did. Yeah. Uh, who covered their faces? I did.
05:14:38 I did. In what what manner did you cover your face?
05:14:41 face? Um, it would have been a a scarf wrapped around
05:14:43 around path to conceal up to my eyes. What was the purpose for covering your face?
05:14:50 face? Well, essentially it's because um I did not want to be recognized by members of the hunt. [clears throat] Um I didn't
05:15:03 the hunt. [clears throat] Um I didn't live all that far away at the time and there was a very real risk of bumping into them. Um it was in my interests to maintain my concealment from them.
05:15:15 my concealment from them. I'd like to turn back to we went through it quickly. It's the Powerbase Undercover Research Group online article about James Thompson. It is
05:15:26 about James Thompson. It is [clears throat] UCPI 35 trouble 2. It's page 12.
05:15:32 page 12. And this is the page that has the heading Huntsab almost killed.
05:15:46 Yes. And just to go through the first four paragraphs under this heading, Hunt Sab almost killed James was considered as a good friend of the member of the Cudden group who almost died after he was deliberately driven over by a hunt supporter in a four-wheel drive vehicle. He was very present at his bedside
05:16:00 He was very present at his bedside during his recovery. The attack happened on the 1st of September 2000 when a small delegation of the Cudden Hunt sabs turned up at dawn meetat of the old Surrey Burstone West Kent Hunt
05:16:13 Surrey Burstone West Kent Hunt attempting to prevent the killing of fox cubs. The event had a massive impact on hunt saboturs and their supporters. A call went out for a demo the next day and this refers to the 2nd of September. What started as a peaceful demo
05:16:24 What started as a peaceful demo escalated at the kennels where few police were seen in attendance. When we arrived, two men came out, one with a stick, one with a pickaxe handle, and after that all kicked off. They were
05:16:36 after that all kicked off. They were threatening people. There was quite some damage at the kennels and 36 people were subsequently arrested weeks later at
05:16:47 subsequently arrested weeks later at their homes by detectives from Surrey and Sussex police forces who were investigating both the hunting incident and the subsequent demonstration. Most
05:17:00 and the subsequent demonstration. Most were identified from CCTV images taken at a local railway station where the group had gathered before they had covered their faces and from a traffic camera in a police car on the road into the location. John remembers that the
05:17:11 the location. John remembers that the images appeared in the trial depositions where some people were identified the image while others had a question mark above them as unidentified. And so the question is in terms of the detail that we see here in this uh
05:17:28 detail that we see here in this uh undercover research article that refers to yourself. There is detail in here that is not uh in your statement. So, for example, the uh a reference to 36 people being arrested uh damage at the
05:17:46 people being arrested uh damage at the uh kennels and the reference to covering of their faces. And may I just ask you why that detail is in the body of that paragraph in particular but not in the
05:18:02 paragraph in particular but not in the statement that you provided? Yes, I it I mean uh the um the information provided to the undercover research group was from a variety of people. I don't know if that that exact piece of information came from me or whether it was from um
05:18:17 came from me or whether it was from um from one of the other the other people. It's a bit specific that uh I I don't recall the exact number, but it seems about right to me. there were there was a large number of arrests made subsequently. Um,
05:18:29 subsequently. Um, if I didn't include it in my own
05:18:41 if I didn't include it in my own statement, it's not a deliberate attempt for me to have um discluded it. It's um I just didn't think to put that number into the into the statement. That's that's all I'm ju just to be fair to you L3 at page nine paragraph 3.15 of your statement you say I was present at the protest at the
05:18:53 I was present at the protest at the kennels but I wasn't one of the people arrested on the 2nd of September 2000 or subsequently as people were arrested
05:19:04 subsequently as people were arrested bail conditions were imposed which was a standard police trick at the time this meant that a lot of people had bail conditions some were charged and some went to trial some people then had their cases is dropped. You go on to state in the following paragraph, there were two trials at Guilford Crown Court. Some
05:19:22 trials at Guilford Crown Court. Some people were found guilty and some people were found not guilty. So, you do refer to that in your statement. Yes.
05:19:29 Yes. May I um turn back in your statement to page four, please, and it is paragraph 1.12 of page four where you say here, I have had communication with Wendy over the years, so I was aware of what was going on in
05:19:41 so I was aware of what was going on in this inquiry. Wendy told me that she'd been asked to give a proper statement
05:19:53 been asked to give a proper statement and I realized at that point how serious it was and that they really did want to know about James uh Thompson. Um what
05:20:03 Um what contact did you have with Wendy over the years? Can you just give us an idea of how often you would have contact with Wendy?
05:20:13 Wendy? Um intermittent. It was on and off. Um Wendy lives in a very far away place. Um uh it's oh it's probably been 10 years at least since we last met in person. Um [snorts] upon a visit of hers back to
05:20:28 [snorts] upon a visit of hers back to this country. Um it's not regular by any means. It was just on and off. We remained in touch. How did you communicate with her? Um by telephone or text message.
05:20:41 May I ask what discussion you have had with Wendy about this inquiry, please?
05:20:52 with Wendy about this inquiry, please? Yeah, very careful. Um, Wendy was always extremely careful when talking uh to me because um she was aware of how much
05:21:05 because um she was aware of how much more she knew than I did and um was also aware of uh the warnings that are given regarding the release of information. So, she did not tell me anything specific. Um, I think I had a I know I had a conversation with her about my original thoughts
05:21:19 thoughts um of what I thought Operation Lime had really been about. And I think she made it clear to me at that point that maybe I should speak to the inquiry.
05:21:31 the inquiry. When was that roughly in terms of year? this
05:21:37 this uh oh this is quite recently because of course I didn't contact the inquiry until very late so within the last four weeks
05:21:49 in your statement in the next paragraph 1.13 you say subsequently she was able to tell me that James Thompson had provided a very long statement but she didn't tell me what was in it at this point it did peique my press.
05:22:05 Did she tell you anything about the content of James Thompson's statement? No, she didn't. Uh, as I say, she was very careful. Um, I think she realized
05:22:22 very careful. Um, I think she realized the ramifications of of being loose with uh information. And um I didn't press her on that quite deliberately. I realized how important it was. I I understand that it's for her eyes only. And um no, she was very careful with what she said to me.
05:22:49 Did she just to be clear um is your evidence that she never told you about what we've been discussing today, the allegation that you were involved in sourcing a firearm in France? Correct.
05:22:51 Correct. Could I ask you about paragraph 1.17 in your statement where you say that on the 17th of October when SAR gave evidence uh this was the first time I
05:23:06 evidence uh this was the first time I was aware of any accusations that I was involved in operation lime and the obtaining of a firearm. That same day I received disclosure from the inquiry of some material that mentioned me which I was able to review over that weekend. I
05:23:32 was able to review over that weekend. I later received some more documents that I am aware that there is more material which I have not yet seen. So you're referring here to when Sara gave evidence and were you following that on YouTube, the YouTube feed?
05:23:37 feed? Yes, that's right. And so referring to this was the first time that you were aware of the firearms accusation. Correct. Yes.
05:23:49 Correct. Yes. Now, I'm going to ask I'm going to just read to you um an email that you provided to the inquiry on the 15th of October. It's not a document that we have on screen, but I'm just going to read it uh and then ask you some
05:24:06 read it uh and then ask you some questions about it. So, it's dated the 15th of October this year. I believe this is from you to the inquiry. I believe that you or your colleagues may have been interested in contacting me regarding the current hearings into the
05:24:18 regarding the current hearings into the undercover police inquiry tranch 3 that you are hearing now. I've listened to the opening remarks this week regarding the conduct of one of the undercover officers involved James Thompson alias
05:24:30 officers involved James Thompson alias James Straven and I believe myself to be one of those referred to under the moniker L1, L2 or L3. Certainly, I recognize some of the narrative regarding his conduct into what was referred to in the statement as
05:24:44 referred to in the statement as Operation Lime. I feel certain that it was myself being mentioned as the individual that was used by Thompson in his fictitious false flag operation to secure a firearm in France during the January of 2001.
05:24:56 January of 2001. I realize that I'm very late to the proceedings. However, if I can offer any assistance in terms of background or additional details, then I'd be happy to
05:25:07 additional details, then I'd be happy to assist you or your colleagues, uh please feel free to contact me at this email address if you do feel I can offer you uh any assistance. And so that was the email that you provided to the inquiry on the 15th of um o uh 15th of October.
05:25:28 on the 15th of um o uh 15th of October. So in the openings uh that you refer to were on the 13th of October and I just want to ask you about what you have said in your statement that it was on the 17th of October when Sara gave her
05:25:39 17th of October when Sara gave her evidence that that was the first time that you aware of the accusations involving operation lime but the email indicates that it was in fact when you were listening to the opening which was on the 13th of October. Could you just
05:26:02 on the 13th of October. Could you just help us with that in terms of the timing when you remember first hearing about the accusation about you and the gun plot in France? I I'm willing to admit it's my error in terms of the date. Um, the only time I ever first heard of uh
05:26:17 ever first heard of uh uh Operation Lime and um the supposed purchase of a firearm was through uh this inquiry and through no one else.
05:26:28 uh this inquiry and through no one else. Um I was unaware of it before then. If I have made a mistake with the dates and that's on me, I I'll Yep. I may well have got that wrong. It has all moved very quickly for me, I'm afraid. It's uh Yep. I Yep. I I I'll I'll accept that I could have got that wrong.
05:26:48 Thank you, sir. That really does conclude my questions. Yes.
05:26:58 I hope you have been shown a copy of the top of the Avis rental document. Yes.
05:27:01 Yes. Um which has your name on it. Yes.
05:27:03 Yes. Is it correctly spelled there? It is not correct. No, I thought not. But uh that is because a letter is omitted I think. Correct.
05:27:08 Correct. Yes.
05:27:12 Yes. Uh do you recognize the number on it? I do. Yes. And is that the number of your driving license?
05:27:15 license? Yes. Yes.
05:27:18 Yes. Yes. And did you see the time on it? The time.
05:27:23 The time. No, the time of the um the document when the when the vehicle was released. Oh, no. I'm sorry. No, that's we that is actually on the open one. So, can we get that up, please? Um, let me
05:27:34 let me identify it for you. It is MPS0527763-7.
05:27:56 Um, if you look at the top please on the right hand corner where do you see where in black it says amount due? Uh, yes.
05:28:01 Uh, yes. Then immediately below that is the date on which the it is to be returned and then the date below that the date time out 10th of January 1139 right let's think about this carefully um
05:28:12 um so the 10th would have been the date that we hired it that's correct that would have been the day the the vehicle would have been hired on the 10th and
05:28:29 would have been hired on the 10th and for this vehicle to have been returned on the 15th at midday I don't follow this at all because that was the date that we returned um back across the channel. We were
05:28:40 um back across the channel. We were still using the vehicle. The vehicle was used all the way back to uh where the journey had started, which is Sara's house.
05:28:54 is Sara's house. Um so I don't see how it could have been returned at midday. I don't follow that at all.
05:28:56 at all. Don't trouble yourself about the return time. Mhm. Uh there is other evidence about about that which is contemporaneous and appears to be reliable. Right.
05:29:09 Right. I'm concerned about the date and time out. 10th of January is clearly the date on which he was hired. Y
05:29:13 Y that's the date on which you were told that the vehicle had been stolen. Mhm. [clears throat] Um 11:39 you say you were a late sleeper and what I'm trying to get at is whether you were there when the car was hired at the M Marles airport uh depot or not.
05:29:26 the M Marles airport uh depot or not. Right. Um, in terms of time, it's it's just possible that that it is correct.
05:29:37 just possible that that it is correct. Um, it's late morning. Um, it would have meant that the events earlier on the 10th had happened rather rapidly. Um, but it is still possible that that is correct. I,
05:29:58 that that is correct. I, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have a recollection of me being there hiring this vehicle, and I cannot remember whether I simply gave my driver's license for Thompson to use to add me as a second driver or whether I was
05:30:10 a second driver or whether I was actually present. I don't know why. I cannot There's no visual clue I have that that would trigger a memory. I I cannot remember being there, but the time is not so
05:30:23 outrageous to be unbelieved. It It is possible. It is. But you simply can't remember. I'm sorry. At least you need apologize for trying to remember something um just under 25
05:30:37 to remember something um just under 25 years ago of no consequence at the time. Indeed.
05:30:43 Indeed. That I think concludes the evidence that Oh, I'm so sorry. Is there any re-examination? Um, just very briefly, but but of course um, forgive me. I I was told that there were no more questions and I had assumed that that included re-examination, but it doesn't. Please, please carry on.
05:30:58 Please, please carry on. L3, you said in your evidence that you are still coming to terms with the revelation of what could have been and that it has all moved very quickly. Do you have any further reflections to
05:31:12 you have any further reflections to share with the inquiry on the impact of learning about Operation Live, just just that the impact of it is is now beginning to sort of sink in and that the last 25 years of my life could
05:31:28 that the last 25 years of my life could have been extremely different. Um um in fact, unimaginably so. Um, had a decision been made to make arrests on on on this fictitious event, um, I could have found myself serving a very long
05:31:43 have found myself serving a very long prison sentence. It it doesn't seem too wild a suggestion that that that is a possibility that might have happened to me. That, as I'd mentioned earlier, I think that I think this is possibly the the most incredible event that's ever
05:31:56 the most incredible event that's ever happened to me without me being aware of it. Um,
05:31:58 it. Um, perhaps I'm a little bit grateful of that, that I haven't had to think about it for the last 25 years, but that the fact that I could have
05:32:10 fact that I could have spent half of my life in prison for a crime I not only didn't commit, but didn't even know about. It certainly given me
05:32:17 given me pause for reflection and and caused me to think deep into the night. It's it's unimaginable. I don't I don't know how anyone would have would have coped with with beginning to realize that that was
05:32:32 with beginning to realize that that was that was a possibility. And um it's gone on to make me wonder what what have been the ramifications of this in in life is am I am I flagged on some report somewhere as being
05:32:43 some report somewhere as being associated with murder plots and firearms and plans to kill people and and what has that what has that meant to my life behind behind the scenes. I
05:32:54 my life behind behind the scenes. I wondered if it had ever affected me in
05:33:04 wondered if it had ever affected me in ways I I don't even realize. Have I been stopped from applying for jobs because of it without realizing what's what's behind it? Has has my life taken different directions that it might have done? Have I missed opportunities because of what's what's supposedly written about me somewhere that I have no control over? It's um yes, it's it's
05:33:19 no control over? It's um yes, it's it's something that's that's now beginning to really dawn on me and I imagine it'll stay with me for quite quite some time.
05:33:33 stay with me for quite quite some time. Thank you. I have no further questions. Um thank you very much for agreeing to provide uh a witness statement and coming to supplement it with oral evidence. As you will appreciate, I have a good deal more evidence to hear about the
05:33:49 the important issues about which you've spoken. uh and um I can do no more than thank you for providing me with your account of what happened and uh I apologize for the length of time it will take before there is a report coming out which tells you what my findings are. That's thank you.
05:34:01 That's thank you. Thank you very much indeed. You're welcome. Thank you. That concludes today's proceedings. We resume tomorrow at 10 with the evidence of HN16.