Karen Doyle gives evidence about her involvement with the Movement for Justice (MFJ), an anti-racist campaign group infiltrated by HN81 'Dave Hagen' between 1997-2000. She describes the context of relentless racist attacks in 1990s London, MFJ's campaigns against police brutality and harassment, and the formation of community defense initiatives. Doyle challenges SDS reporting characterizing MFJ as a violent revolutionary organization, emphasizing it was an open, integrated community group focused on winning justice for victims of racist attacks and police violence. She expresses disgust at the infiltration and the offensive framing in police reports, particularly the description of parents supporting their arrested children as 'agitating parents.'
00:29:45 Good morning everybody. Uh today's uh hearing is going to be broadcast after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile telephones may use them to transmit what they hear to the outside world, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're describing. Those
00:29:59 event that they're describing. Those devices may not be used for recording or photography. Thank you.
00:30:10 I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly I do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:30:22 and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth. Yes.
00:30:23 Yes. Thank you, sir. Can you give your full name to the court, please? Karen Esester Doyle. You've [clears throat] provided two witness statements to the inquiry. The first is at UCPI
00:30:35 first is at UCPI 38051.
00:30:39 Can that be put up on screen, please?
00:30:54 Can you see that in front of you? consists of 161 pages and it was signed and dated by you on the 8th of July 2025.
00:30:56 2025. Correct.
00:31:01 Correct. Um do you confirm the contents of that are true to the best of your knowledge and belief? I do.
00:31:12 I do. That will stand as your evidence uh in this inquiry. You also provided a second witness statement which is UCPI 39407
00:31:16 which consists of nine pages
00:31:23 signed and dated by you on the 31st of October 2025. Do you recognize that as your statement? I do.
00:31:32 I do. And are the contents uh best uh to the best of your knowledge and belief? Yes. again that will be admitted as your evidence to this inquiry. I'd like to ask you firstly just a
00:31:46 I'd like to ask you firstly just a little bit about your your background. I understand you came from Ireland when you were about age six or seven. You came to the UK and u that was in the mid 80s.
00:31:53 80s. Mhm. That's correct. I think I was actually five or five or six, not six or seven, but Okay.
00:32:00 Okay. Um, and your political interest was sparked around the age of 12. And why was that?
00:32:11 was that? So coming coming from Ireland in the mid 80s to the UK was it was a difficult time to be Irish. Um, right from the start I was kind of subject to anti-Irish bullying on my estate. Um,
00:32:23 anti-Irish bullying on my estate. Um, and even teachers making me stand up and repeat words with th in them over and over. um shaming me for speaking with an Irish accent. Um so as a young child, I
00:32:35 Irish accent. Um so as a young child, I I took all that in and I kind of um felt like I didn't want to be Irish and I used to practice and practice to try and lose my Irish accent. It was only when I went to secondary school and we started doing history lessons with this
00:32:47 doing history lessons with this incredible Irish history teacher, Miss Fenie, um who taught us about um South
00:32:59 Fenie, um who taught us about um South Africa, India, the Indian independence struggle, the Russian Revolution, um just these incredible historical moments, the Irish famine and the resulting forced migration. And I started to reject what I had internalized
00:33:16 reject what I had internalized um much more. And I saw, you know, I at that time you had the situation where Jerry Adams his voice was being dubbed cuz even apparently hearing his voice would in incite people to terror or something. It was so ridiculous. Um but
00:33:31 something. It was so ridiculous. Um but then I saw the um Guilford for case and and people who had been um fitted up by the state and I and I made a decision to um always stand on
00:33:42 made a decision to um always stand on the side of the oppressed. I I became resolutely for Irish reunification. I became proudly Irish. I was um someone who's I'm going to stand against colonialism. I'm going to be one of
00:33:56 colonialism. I'm going to be one of those people that I learned about in history that stood for justice and freedom and equality. Um, so so that's where the kind of shift in mindset came about.
00:34:09 about. Come 1993, you move to Kingsway College and that's where you go to do your A levels. um when you join uh that's in the autumn of 1993 and you set set out in your witness
00:34:20 and you set set out in your witness statement that you joined the students union and you were a member of the union between September 93 and July 96. You also became a member of the Kingsway
00:34:35 You also became a member of the Kingsway Anti-Fascist group and you were a member between May 94 and September 94. How did you come to be involved in the KFG?
00:34:49 KFG? So, at the start, I was mainly just involved in the Kingsway Student Union activities. So, they were doing a lot around canteen prices. You know, there
00:35:00 around canteen prices. You know, there was demonstrations on the college on the in the college site. Um and and there they were also doing anti-racist activities and it was kind of a merging of the Kingsway anti-fascist group and the student union because the Kingsway
00:35:12 the student union because the Kingsway anti-fascist group stood as a slate in the election. Um so Kingsway College student union was resolutely anti-fascist, anti-racist and I would attend meetings. Um I joined the anti-fascist group. I went to a couple of meetings, but I didn't actually get
00:35:23 of meetings, but I didn't actually get that involved with them um until until
00:35:36 that involved with them um until until shut alarm until um I found out that one of my college mates had been subject to to a vicious racist attack um in East London. And that was the moment that I
00:35:47 London. And that was the moment that I think turned everything for me that that made me commit to this struggle against racism. So, uh, just before you joined Kingsway College in the April of 1993, we know that Steven Lawrence had been killed, but during the early 90s, there
00:36:00 killed, but during the early 90s, there were a number of racist attacks, weren't there, in London. Yeah.
00:36:05 Yeah. Um, I just say it was it was relentless. Like, it was it was constant. It was not just um racist attacks. There was racist murders and every week there was
00:36:16 murders and every week there was something new. Um, and some got reported on and some didn't. And I was aware of that in 93 because the student union and the anti-fascist group were organizing around those issues. Um, and not long after you joined the college, you say that the uh KFG was
00:36:35 college, you say that the uh KFG was building towards uh Welling, and we know about that demonstration in Welling on the 16th of October 93. You didn't attend that, did you? Why was that?
00:36:43 that? I was scared. I was 16 years old and I kind of I I I had seen previous demonstrations and I knew there was a risk of confrontation with the police and the fascists and honestly I was I
00:37:00 and the fascists and honestly I was I was scared and and I didn't go and I I I regret that decision. Um but it it was you know the way I was feeling at the time.
00:37:06 time. Um KFG's aim was to stop fascists. Is that right? Yeah. and to try and prevent racist attacks and and and that sort of thing. How was that achieved? How were they
00:37:18 How was that achieved? How were they going to do that? Political campaigning um organizing um community self-defense um and that happened a bit later when we set up community defense. But yeah, mainly political campaigning, organizing um
00:37:29 political campaigning, organizing um wherever the fascists were planning to march or gather um that that what could we do to stop that to to occupy where they plan to march um to surround them
00:37:41 they plan to march um to surround them to prevent people from joining them? Um it it was a whole a number of different strategies.
00:37:53 strategies. You say that you became a member of real the revolutionary internationalist league between se uh uh October 94 and
00:38:05 league between se uh uh October 94 and uh December 22. So you've been a member of real for quite some time. Yeah.
00:38:10 Yeah. What was the relationship between RIL and KFG?
00:38:20 the [sighs and gasps] I would say the leadership of KFG, of community defense, of the work we did in East London, the Langden Park Defense Campaign, um and movement for justice. Um that the the leadership and perspective came from the real that the the method and the understanding um but they they were
00:38:35 understanding um but they they were separate organizations. The real itself was very much concerned with um political education. Um so we did studies I I was doing studies in Kingsway College on on Marxism um from the age of 16.
00:38:46 the age of 16. How many members were there of real? It varied at different points. I I think it never went above 10 for most of the period that this inquiry is concerned
00:38:59 period that this inquiry is concerned of. Um it was between five and seven I think.
00:39:06 think. Um their purpose you say was educational. Were they a Troskyist group?
00:39:07 group? Yes.
00:39:09 Yes. And did that filter down then to KFG and we'll come on to MFJ but were they troskiest as well in nature?
00:39:25 troskiest as well in nature? Oh no, absolutely not. And those groups were much bigger than the real um and contained people with many different political beliefs and persuasions. Okay. So you mentioned the sha alam campaign and in your witness statements you say you were a part of that and
00:39:40 you say you were a part of that and engaged with that between May 94 and July 1995. Uh that came about because one of your student colleagues was attacked. Um
00:39:53 Um did that then lead into the formation of the MFJ, the movement for justice? Yes, it did. It had a profound impact on all of us. We I I the the moment I I I remember the moment that I heard about
00:40:09 remember the moment that I heard about Shaalam. Um one of the KFG members came into my philosophy Alevel class and described what happened to him and I I just remember I I couldn't focus on my
00:40:22 just remember I I couldn't focus on my class after that. And I went to we had there was a massive meeting in the in the big hall and um Sha's family, friends and members of KFG were on the stage. Um and there was Bengali youth
00:40:40 stage. Um and there was Bengali youth who were talking about like a constant barrage of of racist attacks. School students who were getting beaten up daily going to and from school. It it was living in an incredibly hostile environment and and Sha um had been attacked by these a gang of 12 white
00:40:54 attacked by these a gang of 12 white racists with bats and knives um and was very very seriously unwell and um we had discussion about what was needed and
00:41:08 discussion about what was needed and from the the people on the platform the Kings fascist group student union and the the family members and friends were saying that what we need is community defense. What we need immediately is we need to stop these attacks from
00:41:19 need to stop these attacks from happening. We need to protect our communities. And that made so much sense to me. Um and I remember the moment that
00:41:30 to me. Um and I remember the moment that kind of sealed it for me was some member of a a left group, can't remember who
00:41:38 of a a left group, can't remember who exactly it was, but they got up and they said, "No, what we really need, there's going to be a massive TU demonstration in 5 months time or 3 months time. we need to throw everything into building that demonstration cuz that's the most important thing. And I just remember thinking that's ridiculous. I don't want
00:41:51 thinking that's ridiculous. I don't want to do that. What we need is to solve the immediate need and the immediate need is community defense.
00:42:02 community defense. So you were looking for a very practical type of solution. And so come the summer of 1995, we have the formation of the movement for justice. And in terms of the founding members, is it right that those were Alex Oarde,
00:42:14 those were Alex Oarde, uh yourself, uh Tony Guard, and the person who the inquiry knows, Lewis? Yeah. And there were there was others as well. Um at the founding meeting, there
00:42:27 well. Um at the founding meeting, there was people from the other campaigns. And I just want to say movement for justice was formed when we lost Sha's campaign. He his attackers warped free. Um, and at that moment we knew there had to be
00:42:38 that moment we knew there had to be something more than just um a family campaign just responding to these racist deaths and and deaths in custody. There had to be a movement that was much broader and bigger and making um the
00:42:51 broader and bigger and making um the wider points about racism because we can't at that time everyone was losing in the courts. Everyone was losing. All the victims of racist attacks, all the
00:43:05 the victims of racist attacks, all the victims of police violence, everyone was losing in the courts and we needed something more.
00:43:13 Is it right that you were a member of MFJ between the summer of 95 and December 2022? Yes.
00:43:20 Yes. There were three main chairs of the MFJ between 95 and 22. Is that right? Correct. And you set out that two were black and one was white. There were two men and one woman. Correct.
00:43:33 Correct. So was it generally a very integrated organization? Yes. Uh it was kind of hardwired into the politics of movement for justice that we were an integrated organization committed to the leadership um developing the leadership of of of our
00:43:48 developing the leadership of of of our black members, of our Asian members, of our gay members. We we were a fully integrated organization at all levels. And by integrated, you mean in relation to race, gender, and sexuality? Correct.
00:44:00 Correct. Have you ever been the chair of MFJ? No. I mean, I've chaired meetings, but I've never been the chair of MFJ. Okay.
00:44:14 Okay. What was your role uh throughout the period that we're looking at between 93 and 2008? So I think I started off as secretary um and towards the latter period so like 2017 like the latter period of this um I um became treasurer.
00:44:29 period of this um I um became treasurer. Was there formal membership of MFJ? No. Did people pay their dues? Did they have to sign up?
00:44:41 to sign up? No. Uh anyone who agreed with what we were fighting for um could join and join our meetings. Um, some people had standing orders, but not many. We weren't an organization full of people who had a lot of money.
00:44:53 who had a lot of money. I think finances were generally a problem throughout the existence of the MFJ. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Um, can we have on the display, please? MS4677.
00:45:06 So, it's behind tab B3 of the MFJ bundle.
00:45:13 bundle. Uh, Karen Doyles bundle. Sorry. This is an intelligence report from the 11th of November 97 and it relates to the movement for justice and the first magazine that was published.
00:45:24 magazine that was published. Um it lists contributors and there are 10 contributors
00:45:36 and the um author of this is Windmill Tilta who we know is HN81 otherwise known as Dave Hagen.
00:45:38 Hagen. And in it he says that this is a comprehensive listing of the main activists within MFJ. Is that about right? Were there about 10 main activists?
00:45:56 activists? At that time our meetings were generally between 10 and 20 people every week. So I mean I can't see behind the privacy but I think I remember that I recognize all those names.
00:46:11 all those names. You were an A-level student. What was the makeup of the group generally? Were they students or were they out outside activists
00:46:13 activists by the time? So by this time this was 97. Yeah.
00:46:21 Yeah. I I don't think I was a student anymore at that point. Uh I was a student when Movement for Justice was first set up. Okay.
00:46:30 Okay. Um but the makeup was it was a mix. It was a mix. It wasn't majority students. Um there was a lot of um people who were working at intrud unions as well as some students
00:46:42 students and a mix of ages as well. Yeah.
00:46:53 Yeah. The meetings were weekly. Is that right? And um integrated a mix of races, genders,
00:46:57 genders, uh mostly in Brixham. Is that right? Correct.
00:46:59 Correct. And the attendance at those meetings, would that be between six and 30 people attending each meeting? Yeah, I I think that would be accurate.
00:47:11 Yeah, I I think that would be accurate. Were the MFJ meetings open to anybody to attend?
00:47:14 attend? Yeah, absolutely. We had throughout that whole period, um I used to joke it was our office. We had stalls every single Saturday at Brixton Station, rain or shine, um where we gave out our materials and we would invite people to
00:47:31 materials and we would invite people to the meetings. And when you say give out materials, they're flyers. Um the publication, that sort of thing. Yeah.
00:47:37 Yeah. And so was there anything that you did as a group that was not public? No.
00:47:44 In terms of your campaigning for MFJ, what did that involve? Um it's I I've listed in my witness state, it's quite extensive. I've listed in my witness statement all of the
00:48:02 in my witness statement all of the campaigns we did during that period. Um the three main tenants of movement for justice I guess would be um standing against um police racism, deaths in police custody, um justice for victims of racist attacks and um um rights for
00:48:15 of racist attacks and um um rights for immigrants and asylum seekers. So we had those three broad areas of work. So within that in in the period mentioned um we did our anti- police harassment campaign. We did an anti-CS spray campaign. We supported numerous people
00:48:28 campaign. We supported numerous people who had been victims of racist attacks in Lambeirth and or police harassment in Lambbeirth. Um we we organized around
00:48:42 Lambbeirth. Um we we organized around [clears throat] asylum seekers and the the big campaign that kicked off Movement for Justice was our non-ooperation with Howard's Immigration and Asylum Act. Um so that was when the government were first proposing and it
00:48:53 government were first proposing and it was unheard of at the time sadly sadly um [clears throat] ubiquitous now but they were first proposing that public sector workers would check people's immigration status before giving them treatment. So that was our first big campaign.
00:49:09 campaign. And in terms of how you went about that was it petitions letter writing lobbying?
00:49:18 lobbying? Yeah. So yeah we did petitions a lot. This was before the internet. So it was all hard copied petitions, petitions, lobbies of MPs, um demonstrations, marches, stalls, um doortodoor
00:49:29 um doortodoor knocking on people, we did a lot of doorto-door work.
00:49:40 It suggested that um the MFJ whilst you say its purpose was fighting racism and uh uh fighting for immigration rights or immigrant immigrant rights, was it a front for real?
00:49:52 real? No. No, absolutely not. It was completely a different organization.
00:50:03 completely a different organization. And if if this thing if if it had have been a front for the real I I suspect that the real would have been a lot bigger [laughter] than we actually were through that entire period. It was um there was people who had politics and beliefs that were antitheical to to to
00:50:15 beliefs that were antitheical to to to the real's politics and beliefs. Um so it wasn't absolutely not a a front for the real. It was a it was a broad organization
00:50:34 organization and and when you're fighting for people's rights, fighting against racism, you say part of the um uh
00:50:37 um uh uh title of MFJ is by any means necessary. Can you explain what that means?
00:50:48 means? So I remember the discussions that we had when we were setting up movement for justice. The name movement for justice came first um because our goal is to build a movement a a movement against racism. Um and by any means necessary came after and it came from discussions
00:51:04 came after and it came from discussions because we were trying to find a way to mark the movement for justice as different from um the the kind of um
00:51:18 different from um the the kind of um legal campaigns. And it it it really was a way of saying we don't let the state, the police, the government, the local council determine how we fight for justice. That we don't let the state set our timetable for justice. Um that that and so it came from um um Malcolm X in
00:51:32 and so it came from um um Malcolm X in the US and the civil rights movement in the US. In fact, we we regularly studied mainly the the speeches of Martin Luther King in fact. But um yeah, that's where
00:51:45 King in fact. But um yeah, that's where it came from. It came to say that we we weren't going to we were going to determine our own methods of organizing. In fact, I think you put it uh set it out in your first publication. If you
00:51:58 out in your first publication. If you can have up on the display, please UCPI 38053
00:52:01 38053 page 10. This is behind tab A1, sir.
00:52:10 So this is that first MFJ magazine in November 1997. And at page 10, in the middle of the page at the bottom, you set out what you mean by any means necessary. Mhm.
00:52:24 Mhm. And you reference there Malcolm X as as you said.
00:52:33 If we can just expand out a little bit so that we can see the next column as well. It gives a little bit more detail in relation to that. It's the the third column.
00:52:44 column. Yeah. We must work for victories in those struggles, whether getting police suspended and prosecuted for their acts of violence, getting charges dropped against those framed by the police, preventing deportations, or stopping
00:52:56 preventing deportations, or stopping racist sackings and victimization. These victories have to be used to inspire more people with confidence that we can make a change by fighting back. And you
00:53:13 make a change by fighting back. And you also set it out in the election campaign material for Alex Olawad in 1998. If we can have up on screen please UC CPI 38055.
00:53:16 38055. This is behind tab A13
00:53:26 at the bottom of that page the explanation is set out quite clearly for for those you are looking to obtain a vote from. Why do we say by any means necessary? And again, you give an explanation in relation to
00:53:39 you give an explanation in relation to that. And and one of the examples right at the end is you say it's how we got rid of the pole tax by mass non-payment. Yeah.
00:54:01 Yeah. To what extent did fighting by any means necessary to secure rights and uh fight against fascism or racism, to what extent did it involve physical confrontation or violence? Um,
00:54:08 never ne never never never in terms of any that was initiated by us. The only times that I can think where there was violence was instances of police violence. And I and I this this is the
00:54:26 violence. And I and I this this is the thing when people talk about violence um and in the context of of our movements and it it it completely ignores the absolutely extreme violence that black and Asian communities were facing at that time. Extreme violence from
00:54:41 that time. Extreme violence from fascists. People like Joy Gardner had 13 feet of tape wrapped around her head by immigration police. That's violence. The most that we did was on the front line of a demonstration. If there was a line
00:54:55 of a demonstration. If there was a line of police, we maybe didn't move and we'd get pushed by the police. That's it. What about this idea, the notion that the way to fight violence is with
00:55:06 the way to fight violence is with violence? Can we infer from by any means necessary that you would support others in a violent campaign or violent action? No.
00:55:16 No. No. And we never did. If if we were saying that, we would have said that in our publicity. If that was our politics, we would have said it. And I've supplied like reams of our publicity from the time. I went through all of my documents
00:55:28 time. I went through all of my documents that I had from back in the '9s onwards. And I've supplied this inquiry with with reams of it. And nowhere do we
00:55:40 do we promote or say that this is the method that we will use. We will do things like, and I know Alex was asked about this, we will defend people who riot against police violence or or racist violence again because
00:55:53 violence again because you can't equate the reaction to violence with the actual violence that's being perpetrated against people. But we never promoted that as a method.
00:56:09 never promoted that as a method. And and when would that come about? Would that be on marches, on demonstrations in terms of of of defending people who are are responding to police violence, you say?
00:56:21 responding to police violence, you say? So, for example, when Derek Bennett was shot multiple times in the back on an estate in in Brixton and and murdered by police. Um, we held a demonstration.
00:56:34 police. Um, we held a demonstration. After that demonstration, there was an uprising by local youth. Um, and Alex was on the in the media the next day saying, "We want the charges dropped." There is nothing there is no comparison between people expressing their
00:56:45 between people expressing their frustration, their anger, um, and at police violence, at racist violence, at fascist violence. There is no
00:56:56 at fascist violence. There is no equating that with someone being shot in the back multiple times. You can't equate it. We did a campaign to get all the charges dropped and we were actually successful. There was no one charged in the end for that.
00:57:10 the end for that. Is it your evidence then that a a a certain amount of violence or physical confrontation is justified so long as it doesn't meet the violence that uh police uh impose on others.
00:57:22 uh impose on others. What we're talking about is defense. What we're what movement for justice was engaged in was defense defense of our communities um defense against racist
00:57:33 communities um defense against racist attack against police violence. Those are defensive actions. I do not consider them violent actions
00:57:48 in uh uh document MPS 0721 941
00:57:50 941 at page four.
00:58:01 This is a a a statement by HN81 from 2013.
00:58:07 David Hagen or HN81 describes MFJ as a Troskyist organization with the ultimate objective of revolution by any means. Yeah.
00:58:19 Yeah. Is that an accurate description? Absolutely inaccurate. I think if that was our aim, we'd see it in our materials and it and it isn't in our materials.
00:58:31 our materials. And that is despite the uh leadership of rail
00:58:36 rail real being troskiest in nature. Yeah.
00:58:42 Yeah. Were you looking for a revolution? Was I personally looking for a revolution? Um well MF MFJ and all the people who were members of MFJ. No. No. MFJ wasn't MFJ was concerned about winning justice.
00:58:53 about winning justice. That that's what MFJ was concerned about and that doesn't require a revolution to win justice. I'd like to move on then to SDS reporting. Um, in terms of reporting
00:59:14 reporting. Um, in terms of reporting from HN43, Peter Francis, were you aware of somebody called Peter Johnson, Peter Daly, or Peter Black within your organization reporting on organizations that were affiliated with MFJ?
00:59:26 that were affiliated with MFJ? I honestly, no. I can't remember him at all.
00:59:28 all. I I I've I've I've read his reporting and obviously I was in Kingsway where he was and I was in the anti-fascist group. Genuinely can't remember him. Um
00:59:52 we understand that he was not active in MFJ from the point at which it was uh uh established in 1995 in any event. But there was one incident that you mentioned in 1995. if you've already touched upon it and that is the one in the context of the campaign for
01:00:04 the context of the campaign for non-ooperation with the immigration and asylum bill, stop the bill. That was a campaign that ran from 1995 to 1996. Is that right? Correct. Yeah.
01:00:17 Correct. Yeah. Um you said that that was the first big campaign in response to the Conservative government's announcing a new immigration and asylum bill. Can you just explain what your campaign involved in relation to that?
01:00:29 campaign involved in relation to that? So, we campaigned um for a campaign like we were organizing in the trade unions to get people to um pass motion saying they would that they would not cooperate with the new bill because it was asking it was it was it was saying teachers,
01:00:43 it was it was it was saying teachers, nurses, doctors, housing workers would have to check people's immigration status before providing them with care, treatment, you know. Um, and I realized this took labor to bring all of that in, but um, so we were asking for
01:00:57 but um, so we were asking for non-ooperation. We did leafleting. I think we had some demonstrations. Um, we did lobbies. I remember a big lobby at Parliament. Um, yeah, that that was what the campaign was.
01:01:09 was. And in November 19
01:14:07 Miss Doyle, you said that um race did not dictate who you handed leaflets to. No.
01:14:09 No. Did it dictate who could become a member of the group? No.
01:14:19 And and how do you feel knowing that your group was targeted ultimately because you happened to be there on that weekend or active in the Brixton area?
01:14:32 I mean, the whole thing is just outrageous. It's just wandering around Brixton and seeing who who gives you a leaflet and go to their meeting. I mean it it's
01:14:51 it it's I feel disgusted by everything that was done by the SDS overall and in this particular period.
01:14:58 I'd like to ask you about the infiltration by HN81 into MFJ, how he
01:15:09 infiltration by HN81 into MFJ, how he did that, and a bit about his legend. At paragraph 17 of your witness statement, you say you can't remember exactly how David Hagen became involved, but does this assist that it's probably through picking up a leaflet on Brixton High Street.
01:15:24 Street. Did you always invite people to public meetings if they showed an interest? Yes, absolutely. And can we take it from that that it was fairly easy to infiltrate your organization? Oh, it would have been absolutely easy. We were completely completely open.
01:15:39 We were completely completely open. So you were quite welcoming to people. Yeah. Like I say, we had our weekly stall at Brixton. We had our weekly meetings in Brixton. We had various big public meetings. All of it was public and anyone could come.
01:15:54 Were you security conscious as a a group of activists in we were security conscious to the extent that [sighs]
01:16:08 so I I think I say in my because the question was asked by the inquiry about our approach to police infil possible police infiltration. Um so we we had an awareness that we could possibly be
01:16:19 awareness that we could possibly be targeted for infiltration. I think any left organization or campaigning organization is aware of that. But our position was always there's nothing we can do about this
01:16:32 there's nothing we can do about this type of inter um this type of um police spying because we're concerned with building a public a mass democratic public campaign. And in that situation, you can't have closed meetings. You
01:16:43 you can't have closed meetings. You can't vet everyone. you can't, you know, you don't check up on people like you're trying to build a mass movement. So, we couldn't do anything about this kind of thing. There was occasionally people who we were concerned were more agent
01:16:58 we were concerned were more agent provocator types because they were um disruptive or proposing particularly violent things or, you know, things that we were really suspicious of and those we were just asked to leave. We would
01:17:11 we were just asked to leave. We would say no, your your views don't align with us. In terms of security conscious on demonstrations, we were always very aware of trying to prevent arrests and so we were security conscious in in in that way.
01:17:23 that way. Did you have meetings where it was by invite only a a smaller closed group? No, I I don't recall any meetings where it was like that. I'm not Oh, no. I don't recall.
01:17:40 Oh, no. I don't recall. Did you conduct any background checks on people when they joined? What was HN81's character, his behavior like in general? Very briefly, he was a very depressive character. So, he was very
01:17:51 he was very um
01:17:56 very depressed. He was a very depressed person. He seemed down a lot of the time. He was quite calm. He was quiet. Um
01:18:04 Um you know, most of the time. Did he take up any positions of influence within the MFJ?
01:18:10 MFJ? No.
01:18:14 No. What sort of activities would he engage with? Generally, he would come to our public meetings. He'd come to the demonstrations or the interventions in like Lambeath Police
01:18:25 interventions in like Lambeath Police Consult Community Consultative Group. Um he'd occasionally cuz we did we were doing a lot. We were effectively pretty much every evening sometimes doing doortodoor and flying and calling. there was always something going on, but he
01:18:38 was always something going on, but he didn't engage himself in that as much in the kind of organizing day-to-day organizing work. Um, it was mainly the meetings and the we could trust that he would be one person who would turn up to an event.
01:18:53 an event. And how did you contact him? Was it via mobile phone or would you ever attend at his home?
01:18:56 his home? No. No, I've never been to his home. It would have been by mobile phone. Was that usual amongst the people in MFJ? So would you would you contact people by their phones?
01:19:11 people by their phones? Yes, phones. I think we had an email list as well, but email wasn't as used then. It was it was mainly phones. Did you attend meetings at each other's homes?
01:19:16 homes? No.
01:19:17 No. No, absolutely. Did you socialize as a group outside of the MFJ?
01:19:24 the MFJ? No. [laughter] No, there was no socializing. [snorts]
01:19:29 [snorts] Sorry, it makes it sound really miserable, [laughter] but wondering who would want to join your group.
01:19:35 group. We we didn't meet in pubs. We didn't like No, there was none of that. We weren't even even to be honest, even among the real, we weren't it wasn't a friendship group, you know. We were brought together by a shared politics.
01:19:46 brought together by a shared politics. We all had very separate personal lives. So, can I take it from that there weren't relationships between the people who were part of the group? There were no sexual behav.
01:20:02 No. And and well, obviously not that I'm aware of and not that we would be concerned by. Did you know anything about HN1's personal life? No.
01:20:09 No. Whether he had a partner or anything like that? I don't think he had a partner. I I think he would have probably said that, but no, I wasn't aware of his personal life. I can't even remember what he said he did for a job. I remember the story
01:20:26 he did for a job. I remember the story he told um coming in and I remember the story he told going out but I can't remember much else. So what was the story of him coming in? Oh he he he he came from a from Herafford I believe it was a very racist
01:20:40 Herafford I believe it was a very racist area very conservative. It was difficult family. He came to London. He became an anarchist. Um no no he joined the SWP first became disillusioned with them. Became an anarchist. became
01:20:51 Became an anarchist. became disillusioned with them, joined Movement for justice.
01:21:02 Um, I'll come to the the withdrawal and what you knew about uh his reason for leaving later on.
01:21:10 In terms of his main areas of interest, you've spoken about how he engaged, but in terms of his specific issues that he was interested in, what can you tell us about that?
01:21:21 can you tell us about that? his laser focus was on police and fascism. Um he wasn't remotely interested in our um asylum work um or and we did because we were a local-based organization we also supported campaigns like against the cuts to the local
01:21:34 like against the cuts to the local playgrounds to the to the adventure playgrounds um or to SCEN provision and we'd go along with parents to to lobbies of the council. He wasn't interested in any of that. It was overwhelmingly
01:21:47 any of that. It was overwhelmingly police and fascism. Even though we didn't do much anti-fascist work actually in that period, he was always pushing us to do more. And and when you say he was always pushing you to do more, in in what sense? How did he do that?
01:22:03 sense? How did he do that? The the the classic example is is the Dover incident where his report says, "Oh, a group of MFJ went down." No one from MFJ was intending to go down to Dover that day. No one wanted to go down. He kept raising it.
01:22:20 down. He kept raising it. So I'd I'd like to ask you a little bit more about that in in detail. Did he did he raise issues in in meetings and that sort of thing in terms of the direction of MFJ?
01:22:26 of MFJ? Yeah. Yeah. And he was always encouraging us to focus on on the police and to maintain maintain that campaigning. Not that we would have lost that side to our campaigning, but that
01:22:37 that side to our campaigning, but that was my imp that was his interest and his focus
01:22:40 focus and trying to get us to do anti-fascist work.
01:22:42 work. I'd like to display please MPS 4643.
01:22:49 It's behind tab B2 of the bundle.
01:23:01 This is a report by windmill Tilta um HN81
01:23:03 HN81 dated the 3rd of the 11th 97
01:23:09 that
01:23:16 uh the information obtained was the 31st of October 97 and it relates to a a meeting on the 24th of the 10th 97
01:23:31 and it says that 11 people attended the MFJ meeting at Brixham Road which discussed the forthcoming demonstration on the 15th of November 97.
01:23:43 Now it may be I'm going to show you another document in a moment which is your minute or or MFJ's minutes of this meeting and you'll note that the date is
01:23:54 meeting and you'll note that the date is slightly different. It's the 23rd of the 10th, 97.
01:23:55 10th, 97. Mhm.
01:24:00 Mhm. Um, just on that point, the 23rd of the 10th, 97 would have been a Thursday and the 24th of the 10th 97 would have been a Friday.
01:24:15 a Friday. Our meetings were always on a Thursday. They were on a Thursday. Okay. So, can we take it then that this date, the 24th of the 10th 97, as recorded in this intelligence report, is inaccurate? It should have been the 23rd. Yeah, we would never meet on a Friday.
01:24:36 And it notes that the the agreed central themes should remain as and then he bullet points them. First being opposition to police harassment and intimidation.
01:24:47 intimidation. Second, opposition towards racist asylum and immigration policies. And the third support of ethnic minority issues.
01:25:02 support of ethnic minority issues. And then it would seek to involve itself in other issues such as student grants. And it goes on to say at the bottom uh this comment on the inquest of Oscar Aoy.
01:25:04 Aoy. Do you recall that meeting? I don't recall it, but when I was preparing my statement, I I I found the minutes of
01:25:15 statement, I I I found the minutes of that meeting. Like I mean, we met every week. I'm not going to recall every meeting. Um, but the minutes are pretty would have been an accurate account of what happened. And can I just say we would never use the term ethnic
01:25:29 would never use the term ethnic minority. We were actually against that term. Like I I don't know where this comes from. Those three points that he sets out. It looks like those are the three main demands for the demonstration on the 15th of November.
01:25:41 15th of November. Is that right? I I assume so. But we would never say support of ethnic minority. I mean it's a nonsense. What does it even mean?
01:25:58 does it even mean? If we can go then to the minutes of the meeting and display UCPI 38054.
01:26:12 This is behind tab A12. Sir, we can see here the heading is the minutes of the Lambbeath movement for justice meeting on the 23rd of October 1997. So that would have been the
01:26:26 1997. So that would have been the Thursday evening and present um it includes Alex is that Alexawad? Yes.
01:26:29 Yes. Uh Dave, would that be Hagen?
01:26:29 Hagen? Dave Hagen. Um you are named [clears throat] there and Tony is that Tony Guard? Yes.
01:26:37 Yes. And we can see that um there are a number of issues that are set out in some detail as to what was discussed during that meeting and it's a bit more extensive than the what was actually reported. Um
01:26:54 reported. Um these minutes who would receive a copy of the minutes? We used to we used to discuss them at the following meeting and vote on them just to agree they were accurate. So someone would take the minutes, type them up, and then we'd
01:27:06 minutes, type them up, and then we'd bring them along to the next meeting. I assume that this is the hard because I only had it in hard copy and it had um Alex's writing on it. So I assume it's one I picked up at the next meeting.
01:27:19 one I picked up at the next meeting. Okay. So that would have been available uh by the 30th of October. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone anyone who came to the subsequent meeting would have these minutes
01:27:27 minutes and everybody would be given a copy, would they? Yes.
01:27:28 Yes. Um we can see at under the second heading paragraph three under the second heading which is the Lambbeath youth
01:27:41 heading which is the Lambbeath youth workers dispute. Was that a significant dispute that you were engaged with as the as a group? Yeah. No, we we supported the the Lambeath Youth Workers. Obviously Alex was um a Unison steward as well. Um and
01:27:52 was um a Unison steward as well. Um and and like I say, we often supported local issues.
01:27:54 issues. And we can see in the third paragraph under that heading there's a discussion and Dave raised the danger of movement for justice trying to take on too much
01:28:07 for justice trying to take on too much and losing focus on police brutality. Do you recall that discussion and the contribution made by Dave Hagen? I don't think I recall that like I can't say that I recall that specific discussion but he he regularly made those kind of
01:28:20 but he he regularly made those kind of interventions into the meeting um when we talked about issues other than police police brutality.
01:28:34 So so it's it's it's typical of of him. And we can see in the final sentence there that general agreement there was general agreement that the central focus was fighting racism and Lewis said the policy of movement for justice was
01:28:46 policy of movement for justice was whatever members decided it was and there would have to be more discussions like this. Yeah.
01:28:58 Yeah. Accurate. So from that, can we take it that there was a bit of a discussion and the general agreement was our focus is fighting racism in its broadest terms or in in its broadest terms and and you know that a lot of those cuts were
01:29:12 know that a lot of those cuts were racist in nature and and we argued that um but yeah we we had those kind of
01:29:24 um but yeah we we had those kind of discussions in the meeting where there was disagreements and you know we we discussed them resolved them Um and so
01:29:29 and so if we can uh decrease that a little bit, we can see that the bottom paragraph is in relation to the inquest on Oscar Aoy.
01:29:48 And there's some reference there, isn't there, to um what was going on with the legal team and the approach to the inquest?
01:29:50 inquest? And at the bottom of the next page, we can see that the next meeting was for Thursday, the 30th of October, 7:00. And that's standard, is it? The meetings
01:30:03 that's standard, is it? The meetings were held at on a Thursday around 7:00. Yeah.
01:30:08 Yeah. And so comparing the two documents, do you think that the um uh intelligence report that went to the SDS
01:30:18 the SDS from uh Dave Hagen was a fair representation of what that meeting was all about? No, not at all.
01:30:36 Can we move then to P uh uh HN81's reporting more generally? Um you've already touched upon the fact that as a as a movement as as the group you were involved in a lot of campaigns
01:30:58 you were involved in a lot of campaigns between 95 and 2008, the period that the inquiry is interested in. Um, I'd like to ask you about a few of those in a little more detail. The first one is the March for Justice, which is justice for victims of uh police brutality and organizing against police harassment.
01:31:10 police harassment. And that is a campaign that you say lasted from 97 to 98. How long did that
01:31:22 lasted from 97 to 98. How long did that run for during that time? I kind of when I was putting putting it together, I I kind of bracketed a number of things under that campaign because it included
01:31:36 under that campaign because it included um campaigning around um the don't walk on by campaign and um the shutdown operation shut the video stalker campaign, operation tippet um and the deaths in police custody. So it it went on for quite a long period really.
01:31:53 One of the documents you refer to is MPS 40561.
01:31:57 40561. If we could have that up on screen, please behind tab B1. [cough and clears throat]
01:32:05 And this is a a meeting of the movement for justice on the 1st of October and 12 people attended. It's in relation
01:32:17 and 12 people attended. It's in relation to the march for justice which was to be held on the 1st of November. um at 1997.
01:32:28 It's noted that of the 12 who attended in this first paragraph that there were seven men, three of whom were white and five women, one of whom was white.
01:32:43 five women, one of whom was white. Was it important to you to note the race of those people attending? No.
01:32:47 Paragraph three,
01:33:00 it was noted that due to a lack of numbers and a shortness of time, they should concentrate publicity on the locality where the march will take place. Is it right to say that that march was not very well publicized? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
01:33:17 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so as we can see in paragraph 4, you were only expecting about 50 people to turn up. Was that a regular sort of attendance on marches that you helped to organize?
01:33:30 organize? Yeah. Yeah. Um most of our actions were um between 10 and 20 people like if you're talking about demonstrations at at hearings or police consultative group or council or anything like that.
01:33:42 or council or anything like that. Occasionally we like occasionally we had a march that went into the hundred or a couple of hundred but that was um during that period rare.
01:33:57 that period rare. And what was the frequency of public order public disorder breaking out at marches or demonstrations like that? Never.
01:34:04 Never. Can we display please MPS 4643 behind tab B2?
01:34:18 This again is in relation to um a a meeting in relation to the March for Justice. It's now going to be held on
01:34:29 Justice. It's now going to be held on the 15th of November. It looks like the date has been postponed a bit. Is that right?
01:34:34 right? See, I I can't I can't remember exactly. I would have in my witness statement I would have put the times cuz I I was looking at all the materials but I can't remember the dates. Okay. Um so this is a meeting on the 24th of October 97. 11 people attended.
01:34:49 24th of October 97. 11 people attended. Um race of people, gender of people not noted this time. Um we can see from parag and we can see that um the central themes
01:35:00 that um the central themes this is a document we looked at before would be at those three uh key focal points of the demonst of the march. Is that right? Well those themes are not are not the focus of the march.
01:35:17 are not the focus of the march. Um they're they're his spin on what we talked about. And paragraph three we can see that there were big ambitions for the group to spread throughout
01:35:29 for the group to spread throughout London and then around the UK but at present other than Kingsway College that plan has to material it still has to
01:35:40 plan has to material it still has to materialize. So was it the case that in 1997 there was just the group at Kingsway College that was where it was based
01:35:50 based and the [clears throat] Lambbeath group. It was mainly the Lambeath group and Kingsway College. So there were in fact two bases for for the group
01:35:58 the group and actually during that period we did also have we had people at other places. So we had members in um College of Northeast London for sure um Green Hill College in Harrow. Um but in terms of
01:36:12 College in Harrow. Um but in terms of established organized groups it was the Lambeath group and the Kingsway group. And how many in each group? What kind of ballpark numbers are we talking about? Um
01:36:25 Um I mean in term like the Lambeath group is an interesting one because we had massive widespread support like just massive widespread support. Um but in terms of the active membership people who came to meetings it would never be
01:36:40 who came to meetings it would never be more than 30 at a time. um the Kingsway group, you know, again widespread support among the student body, but in terms of active members between 10 and 20
01:36:53 20 and we can see that um the funds were £61 at this stage. What what about in in terms of office space resources? What did you have? We had nothing. We were using our personal computers, our personal phones.
01:37:08 personal computers, our personal phones. Um, trade unions would sometimes help us with um um photocopying um and um
01:37:20 with um um photocopying um and um materials for banners or or plaqueards and stuff, but yeah, it was we had we had no resources. And it suggested that that explains why no posters have been produced advertising this March for Justice. So
01:37:32 advertising this March for Justice. So again, fairly low level of publication or or advertising. Yeah.
01:37:36 Yeah. Um,
01:37:40 can we have on display please MPS 40688?
01:37:55 You can see in paragraph one of this report which is on the 7 uh dated the 17th of November 97. We can see that the march went ahead on the 15th of November 1997. And approximately 70 people attended.
01:38:07 approximately 70 people attended. Considered quite a good turnout. Is that fair?
01:38:09 fair? Oh yeah. Yeah. No, that was good turnout.
01:38:14 turnout. And the march was a peaceful affair with no arrests or disorder. Do you recall the meeting? The march. The march. I I do recall that march. Yeah, it was raining a lot. It was very wet.
01:38:24 wet. The source comment at the end is that the main purpose of the march was to recruit and raise money for the MFJ. Is that accurate? I mean, if that was the main purpose of the march, we would have
01:38:37 main purpose of the march, we would have a lot more money than £61. Of course, it wasn't the main purpose of the march. It's ridiculous. Do you recall if you did recruit a lot of people following that march?
01:38:49 of people following that march? See, wouldn't use the word recruit either. Like people would have joined Movement for Justice, come to our meetings or not come to our meetings or come for a bit and left for a bit. Like we didn't I don't think we would have used the word recruit. Um I can't remember if anyone knew from that march.
01:39:05 remember if anyone knew from that march. I expect not. I expect with 70 people it was mostly people we were already aware of. I would it be fair to characterize the group as in in flux depending on what people were interested in. So people might come to a meeting
01:39:22 in. So people might come to a meeting that was to do with student cuts to to to funds but they might not come to something to do with the the local council if they weren't involved. Yeah. Absolutely. and and you know movement for justice was very responsive to the people who came to our we were
01:39:36 to the people who came to our we were very much a community organization. We were rooted in the community. So when people you know when when parents of SCEN children came to our meeting because they wanted support to to lobby the council we would help them with that. We would do that. So we we were responsive to what people brought to the meeting.
01:39:53 meeting. Can I ask you about another uh campaign? The zero tolerance to police harassment. Don't walk on by end stop and search campaign. Uh if I can have on display please UCPI 38060.
01:40:04 please UCPI 38060. It's your um exhibit 17 behind A18
01:40:13 page eight please.
01:40:26 This was a campaign, was it about having members of the public observe where somebody has been stopped and searched by police in the Brixham Lambeath area. Correct.
01:40:42 Correct. And can you just explain, we can see down at the bottom of this page, what you're advising people to do in this leaflet if you see the police stopping someone.
01:40:54 someone. Very briefly, can you just uh summarize that for us? Um we we'd say we say to people um stop, don't walk on by. Um gather other people to stop, observe, check the person's okay, get their phone
01:41:05 check the person's okay, get their phone number if you can. Um we always said, as you see, if you are stopped and searched, stay calm. Give your um name and address. Sticking together is the best way to defeat police harassment. Stay calm. The police may threaten you with obstructing an arrest, but you have
01:41:19 with obstructing an arrest, but you have every right to observe what is going on. So, we provided people with a combination of legal advice, but we were also saying we're not going to let people continually face these racist stops
01:41:30 continually face these racist stops without support from their community. It's a very isolating experience to be
01:41:42 It's a very isolating experience to be stopped by the police multiple times. I remember going to advent the adventure playground in Brixton and meeting a a school student who had been stopped three times in one day in his school uniform. A young black man. Um he was
01:41:55 uniform. A young black man. Um he was only he was a boy. He was like 12 years old. Three times in one day. That that is that's the level of pre police harassment we were talking about. And it's an incredibly lonely experience to
01:42:06 it's an incredibly lonely experience to go through that. And we wanted people to know that they weren't on and we they weren't on their own and here's the advice, here's the legal advice, here are your rights and the community is going to um is going to respond and going to support you.
01:42:18 going to support you. You said that the police may threaten you with obstruction. Were you encouraging people to obstruct the police? No. I mean that the police that that's what the police would do if what one
01:42:30 what the police would do if what one person stopped and and checked what was going on. not interfering at all, but just like why are you stopping him or asking the person are you okay? You you'd get a police officer saying, "Oh, move away. We'll charge you with obstruction." Um, so it was a threat
01:42:42 obstruction." Um, so it was a threat that the police carried out. It wasn't that they would that they would make to people doing this. And we just wanted to warn people that they'll threaten that, but you're not doing anything wrong.
01:42:54 but you're not doing anything wrong. Was there any sense that you were encouraging people to physically intervene with a stop and search? No. like as in physically touch the police officers? Absolutely not. We
01:43:08 police officers? Absolutely not. We wanted people to stand around and watch and and verbally check what was happening. Did you have any sense of how many times this sort of observation took place? Um it happened a lot. It happened I mean it was a very successful campaign. It
01:43:23 it was a very successful campaign. It was happening before we did the campaign I think. Um but I think the campaign um gave it um form and and it was happening more and more through that period.
01:43:35 more and more through that period. When you say it was happening before the campaign, do you mean just generally generally
01:43:38 generally members of the public walking by seeing something and Yeah.
01:43:42 Yeah. keeping an eye out, observing? Yeah.
01:43:46 Yeah. Um while we're on this document, if we can go back to page one, please. This is in relation to operation shutdown. Um, do you remember
01:44:00 shutdown. Um, do you remember an initiative by the Brixton police in relation to I think it was an anti-robery campa initiative was it where police officers were stopping people they thought were known criminals and taking videos of them?
01:44:14 and taking videos of them? Can you can you tell us a little bit about that? Again, I'm only I can't remember the details from my memory of the time. I'm looking at kind of what we've got in
01:44:29 looking at kind of what we've got in front of us here and I do I remember it. Um it was this diffuse notion of of who are the known criminals, who are the suspects. Um and that they would just
01:44:42 suspects. Um and that they would just jump out and film people. Um and we put questions to the chief superintendent Foy of Brixton police in the police consultative group about it.
01:44:50 consultative group about it. So that's what we can see at the bottom of the first column on the left. We can see that movement for justice attended last Tuesday's Lambeath Community and Police Consultative Group. What What was that group? What was the purpose of that? It was a group that was set up um after the Brixton uprisings and the scar
01:45:06 after the Brixton uprisings and the scar scarman report in the 80s. So I think it was one of the first of its kind in the country. Um it was um basically um a a community police consultative group. So it was members of the local community um who would hold meetings, regular
01:45:22 who would hold meetings, regular meetings. Members of the community would go to it, the police would go to it and there would be discussion about um police racism or issues to do with policing
01:45:28 policing in the area. Were people encouraged to attend these meetings?
01:45:32 meetings? Yeah. Yeah. Were you as a group encouraged to attend the meeting? Yeah. Yeah. Um, we we regularly attended the the meeting
01:45:43 the the meeting and [clears throat] we can see the the nine questions that you set out and posed to Chief Superintendent Foy who was head of Brixton police at that time.
01:45:57 was head of Brixton police at that time. Had he had any previous warning about those questions that were going to be put to him about this uh initiative? I can't remember. I don't imagine he did. I imagine we raised it at the we probably wrote it quickly in the run-up
01:46:09 probably wrote it quickly in the run-up to the meeting and we would have put it in to the meeting um for a discussion. If I can draw your attention uh perhaps to the paragraph underneath the questions in bold, it does say that um
01:46:23 questions in bold, it does say that um when it was pointed out that he received the questions in advance of the meeting and that other people had raised similar concerns at the previous meeting a month ago, Foy was forced to agree to meeting with the MFJ and other people from the
01:46:36 with the MFJ and other people from the community in three weeks time to respond to all the questions. Yeah. Yeah, that makes it makes sense that we would have submitted the questions in advance.
01:46:45 advance. Do you recall meeting with him 3 weeks later?
01:46:49 later? I remember that there was a meeting. Okay.
01:46:52 Okay. And was he able to answer the questions? I wasn't in that meeting so I can't remember like Alex would have been at that meeting I think but the questions essentially were about the lawfulness that the use of the
01:47:09 the lawfulness that the use of the initiative of speculative uh videoing of of people uh thought to be known criminals in the Brixton area.
01:47:19 criminals in the Brixton area. Yeah. What was their criteria? It was it was all kind of detailed questions about the the the the plan. And these these were people known to the police. Well, that's what they said. Can we have up on screen, please? MS 302285.
01:47:36 It's behind tab B152 of the MFJ bundle.
01:47:48 So we can see that this is a about a meeting on the 27th of July 1999. It was the MFJ's intention to hold a demonstration outside Brixton Police Station
01:47:59 Station um in response to Chief Superintendent Foy's acceptance of a meeting with MFJ
01:48:10 Foy's acceptance of a meeting with MFJ over the anti-robery initiative that is being carried out in the area. Um
01:48:16 the source comment paragraph two says that Oaladi was widely congratulated after the meeting by other members from the audience who were in the audience who who were the other people that were attending that meeting.
01:48:30 that meeting. It was always all the ones I attended were always really well attended just members of the local community. Um it just generally just members of the life call community. Okay,
01:48:46 paragraph three, please. Oh, sorry. It's up on screen already. That second paragraph under the source comment
01:49:02 HN81 windmill windmill tilt says that MFJ do not anticipate many people will attend this meeting 3 weeks time. However, if only 20 or 30 appear and Foyer does not recognize their legitimacy or refuses to meet, he will
01:49:15 legitimacy or refuses to meet, he will be providing ammunition for the MFJ to use in their propaganda campaign. To what extent do you accept that this was a propaganda campaign around that policing initiative?
01:49:31 policing initiative? So a propaganda campaign is putting out materials and information about something. Um to that extent it was a a propaganda campaign. But I it
01:49:45 I it it's just it it blows my mind that that Hagen was providing advice to the local police on how to interact with us and with members of the community who
01:49:58 and with members of the community who were raising legitimate concerns about police harassment. Okay. The final paragraph please, is another source comment
01:50:09 which presents your approach as a group and your line of argument if you like which is to show why this initiative would be
01:50:24 is to show why this initiative would be deemed racist. Can you just explain that to us? Is this a a true representation of what MFJ were arguing in relation to this campaign? See, I can't I can't remember in
01:50:38 See, I can't I can't remember in specific relation to this campaign in we had a a wide-ranging campaign in that period to abolish stop and search and there were statistics showing the disproportionality and and racism of of stop and search and that it didn't in
01:50:52 stop and search and that it didn't in fact um stop crime. Um and we use that a lot. So, I'm not sure what this is referring to. The the the the specific pilot scheme. I can't actually remember
01:51:03 pilot scheme. I can't actually remember the details of that. Um, but I think we definitely would have been suspicious about it and the questions reflect what our suspicions were were.
01:51:15 our suspicions were were. It says halfway down that paragraph, if Foy cannot provide effective answers, who will be accused of not having control over his officers who have been proven to be institutionally racist? That's a harking back, isn't it, to the Steven Lawrence inquiry.
01:51:37 inquiry. Is that something you were using to effectively batter Chief and super superintendent Foy with this this argument that his officers were institutionally racist?
01:51:46 The police were institutionally racist and we didn't shy away from saying that. So I'm not sure what what that's he says essentially MFJ's line will be that an institution that has itself being deemed racist cannot use
01:51:58 being deemed racist cannot use discretion because decisions are being made from a racist perspective. What do you make about that interpretation of
01:52:09 you make about that interpretation of what your policy or line of argument is? It's not the language we would have used, but I mean I think it's valid to say that an institutionally racist police force um exercising discretion is
01:52:23 police force um exercising discretion is going to exercise it in a racist manner. I I mean I think that's fair comment.
01:52:33 Can I have up on screen please HN81's witness statement Z uh MPS 0748738
01:52:47 paragraph 94 these.
01:53:05 Um at paragraph 94 we can see that HN81 says by the time I started associating with MFJ the public order interest rose from
01:53:19 the public order interest rose from their active opposition to stop and search
01:53:24 search the last sentence of that paragraph. Do you see that? Yes I do.
01:53:31 Yes I do. So, what was the public order element of this active opposition to stop and search as far as you can recall? I I'd like to know that. I I don't think there was a public order. Was there any disorder caused around this campaign?
01:53:42 this campaign? No.
01:53:50 No. What about paragraph 95, please? He refers to the campaign as creating a zero police tolerance zone and he suggests that this was [clears throat]
01:54:09 not lawful. He says I do I do not believe that the suggest suggestion of creating a zero police tolerance zone was lawful. uh that the inference here is that there would be estates or areas within the Brixham area that people would not
01:54:26 Brixham area that people would not tolerate police entering at all and that that wasn't a lawful position for any member of the public to take. What's your response to that? It was ridiculous. It's ridiculous. We weren't having a zero police tolerance zone. We weren't creating no-go areas for the police. We were creating a
01:54:38 for the police. We were creating a situation where the police couldn't carry out racist harassment. It was a zero tolerance to police harassment campaign. The fact that that Hagen um
01:54:53 campaign. The fact that that Hagen um emits that from from from his reports is is is telling about his intentions and the SDS's intentions and their views. Um our campaign was to stop racist police harassment and injustices. Um, it
01:55:08 harassment and injustices. Um, it [clears throat] wasn't to create some no-go zone or zero police tolerance zone. I mean, it's not even the language we used. It's ridiculous. So, so effectively, it's the difference between zero tolerance to police
01:55:19 between zero tolerance to police harassment and zero police tolerance zone. Two very different things you say. Completely different. Um, can I have up please MPS0721
01:55:32 941
01:55:39 page 4. This is HN81 statement from 2013. It's paragraph 3 and four of this page, please.
01:55:52 About
01:56:04 halfway down that first paragraph, he said, "I was able to identify MFJ were the cause of most of the difficulties for Brixham police under the charge of Chief Superintendent Simon Foy. Mr. Foy knew there was a source in the field,
01:56:15 knew there was a source in the field, but I do not know whether he knew it was a police officer." Um,
01:56:26 I considered Mr. Foy to be very capable and armed with reliable and timely intelligence. He was able to deal effectively with the chaos generated by MFJ who were running an anti-stop and
01:56:37 MFJ who were running an anti-stop and search campaign, essentially a vehicle to promote violent opposition to the police by the local community. To what extent were you aware of members of the local community violently
01:56:48 of the local community violently opposing the police during stops and searches?
01:56:50 searches? I wasn't aware.
01:57:00 Um and again reference in the next sentence is that MFJ is a Troskyist organization with the ultimate objective of revolution by any means. I think you've addressed that, haven't you? And you you don't accept that.
01:57:16 Was it fair to say that MFJ were at the time a thorn in the side of Chief Superintendent Foy? Yes. Yeah. We were holding the police to account for racist harassment and
01:57:27 account for racist harassment and injustice. We also interveneed to get the police to do more um for people who've been victims of racist attack in the burough.
01:57:39 Sir, I note the time. Is that an opportune moment to break for quarter of an hour?
01:57:40 an hour? Certainly. [clears throat] And for the benefit of the transcribers, we have a quarter of an hour break in the morning and slightly shorter one in the afternoon.
02:15:35 Thank you,
02:15:43 Mr. Doyle. We spoke about the Lambeirth uh police consultative committee. Was that an opportunity for members of the community to engage with the police about matters of policing?
02:15:54 about matters of policing? Yes. How often did that meet? I believe it was monthly, but I I can't be sure about that, but I think it was monthly.
02:16:05 think it was monthly. And whilst you said you were a thorn in the side of Chief Superintendent Foy, were there uh attempts to engage with Mr. Foy over policing of Burough? Yeah, him and Brian Paddock, I remember we met with who was the subsequent
02:16:18 we met with who was the subsequent police commander. Um, and you saw that we submitted him questions. We met with him.
02:16:28 him. In terms of the MFJ public meetings, those that focused on policing issues, what would have been MFJ's reaction or your personal reaction if a a local
02:16:40 your personal reaction if a a local police officer had turned up to to sit, listen, engage? If they came to one of our public meetings,
02:16:48 meetings, um, I think we would ask them to leave. Honestly,
02:16:50 Honestly, it it wasn't it wasn't a forum that we would want. People wouldn't feel able to talk openly about their experiences if there was a police officer in the room
02:17:04 there was a police officer in the room and we needed people to to feel safe to speak.
02:17:06 speak. What about other opportunities for members of the public and your group to engage with police uh over policing matters? Were there other any other channels
02:17:21 channels that that would happen through the police consultative group um most often? So for I think I gave some examples in my witness statement. Um for example um um the a couple who were subject to a brutal racist attack who were having
02:17:33 brutal racist attack who were having lots of trouble getting the police to investigate. Um we brought them to the police consultative meeting. We pulled the chief inspector aside afterwards.
02:17:44 the chief inspector aside afterwards. they spoke to him um and and and and it ended up that their attackers were prosecuted in the end. Um so we we intervened mainly through the police consultative group.
02:17:58 consultative group. And what did that do in terms of police uh reputation amongst the people that would attend the consultative group? Did
02:18:10 would attend the consultative group? Did that aid it? Uh did it uh just encourage more uh discord within the community towards the police? Depends how the police responded to a given issue.
02:18:24 Operation Tippet. I'm uh moving now to uh a report of the 17th of November 2000. It's MPS 00004677.
02:18:35 And it's behind tab B257 of the MFJ bundle. Sir, what can you tell us about Operation Tippet? Do do you recall that? See, I remember the name and I remember Operation Tippet and we had a campaign
02:18:46 Operation Tippet and we had a campaign against it. Can't actually remember the the the content of what Operation Tippet was, but we had a whole campaign around it.
02:18:57 it. Okay. Another police initiative in in the area of Brixham, was it? There was many through that period. there was many kind of police initiatives um through that period that we intervened on. So I I I can't
02:19:08 we intervened on. So I I I can't remember the specifics of operation tippet.
02:19:10 tippet. It's reported as an opportunity
02:19:19 um for MFJ because it was likely to build resentment towards police in the area and had been introduced without any consultation with the police consultative committee. this action had embarrassed and
02:19:33 this action had embarrassed and undermined the consultative committee. Can you tell us anything about the consultation process that is involved where a a police initiative is uh uh tried tested in the community and the police
02:19:46 in the community and the police consultative committee is is looking to consult with the the local population. How does that work? the generally the I mean I we weren't involved in the chairing or the panel of the police consultative group but my understanding
02:19:57 consultative group but my understanding was that they met with the police pretty regularly outside of the public meetings and the police would run by them any um um initiatives that may cause um concern
02:20:14 um initiatives that may cause um concern from people in the community. They would generally run it by the police consultative committee is my understanding. You'd have to ask someone who was on the committee about that because we only attended the public meetings.
02:20:30 meetings. Okay. And and what do you say about this suggestion that it pres it represented an opportunity for MFJ because it was likely to build resentment towards police? Is that something you would jump on as a a bit of a something to boost your
02:20:39 your uh uh reputation within the community? I mean, it's just ridiculous. We were responding to police harassment, racism, racist attacks. Like these things
02:20:51 racist attacks. Like these things weren't opportunities. They were things we were trying to fight and win. We were trying to win people getting prosecuted for racist attacks. We were trying to win police officers getting prosecuted
02:21:08 win police officers getting prosecuted for racist attacks. We were trying to um empower people to to act against police harassment. like none of those like it's just everything about the way these
02:21:21 just everything about the way these reports is um is phrased is through the institutionally racist lens of the SDS and their undercover officers. It does not reflect movement for justice's beliefs, perspective or what we did.
02:21:38 beliefs, perspective or what we did. Was it was it ever an aim for MFJ to break down that relationship between police and people within the local community? It was already broken. It was broken years before Movement for Justice was set up. That the relationship between the Metropolitan Police and
02:21:51 between the Metropolitan Police and London's black and Asian communities was profoundly broken in this period. And it was broken by years, decades of failures to go after the
02:22:03 decades of failures to go after the racists who were attacking people and
02:22:13 racists who were attacking people and brutalizing people and murdering people. And it was it was of years of operation swamp in the 80s of of stop and search of of racist targeting of black communities and fitting up of people. It
02:22:24 communities and fitting up of people. It was already broken. We didn't have to do anything to break down the relationship between the police and the community.
02:22:34 Thank you. I'm going to move on to um different uh topic now. The Colin Tomlinson case. Can I display please MPS 00002308? This is an intelligence report on the
02:22:50 This is an intelligence report on the MFJ dated the 27th of July 1999. So it's behind tab B153 of the MFJ bundle.
02:23:03 This is in relation to the case of Colin Tomlinson
02:23:04 Tomlinson who claims to have been beaten up by police in Brixham. Is this something that you have a recollection of? It's only a vague I can't rel. I remember the name and I I remember
02:23:17 I remember the name and I I remember that it was an issue of someone who had been beaten up by police, but I I can't remember the details of a lot of that time.
02:23:27 time. It says that MFJ hoped to attract both Tomlinson and his lawyer to their meeting with Chief Superintendent Foy of Brixton tonight, which was the 27th of July 99. But regardless of his
02:23:41 July 99. But regardless of his attendance, they will highlight his case by demanding that police provide CCTV coverage of the incident. Was that something that was open to you? Uh did you regularly use a [clears throat] channel to meet with uh
02:23:53 [clears throat] channel to meet with uh Chief Superintendent Foy over particular cases like this? I mean it wasn't a regular occurrence that we met with the police. I can only think of this and a meeting with Brian Paddock um like separately to the police consultative group but yeah we we we
02:24:12 consultative group but yeah we we we often pulled him aside after the police consultative group about particular cases. Um and yes we had those definitely two meetings I recall. I I can't recall if there was any others. The the last paragraph I think on this document,
02:24:28 sorry, no it's the paragraph before
02:24:33 in relation to the CCTV.
02:24:39 The case of the Brixton bomber demonstrates how well the area is covered by cameras and consequently it will be difficult for the police to convince people that the incident was not covered by camera. Can you recall
02:24:50 not covered by camera. Can you recall what happened in relation to that and whether there was CCTV footage provided? I can't I I doubt they gave us the CCTV
02:25:03 I can't I I doubt they gave us the CCTV footage. we would have asked for it and we would have pointed out that it's clearly covered that area because because it had all come out um the coverage of the Brixton bomber but I can't recall whether we got it or not um in that period but I I just want to say
02:25:18 in that period but I I just want to say as well like what is Hagen? Is he the PR relations manager for the police? Like he's providing advice to the local police about how to respond to us. It it's it's gross. It's obviously
02:25:29 it's it's gross. It's obviously um reporting on a a legal matter as well. Um it's whether um this uh uh person Colin Tomlinson
02:25:45 person Colin Tomlinson was there any suggestion that he might bring a civil action against the uh police. Do you recall that? I can't recall. I mean it probably would have been likely but I can't recall.
02:25:58 have been likely but I can't recall. In terms of legal affairs, who would be involved and speak about that when somebody came to your group for assistance? Who what of your members
02:26:09 assistance? Who what of your members would sit down and talk about uh a legal strategy approach for somebody? Um some I mean our meetings were open so we would often come to people would often come to our meetings who had been victims of attack or by police or by fascists and they would talk about their
02:26:20 fascists and they would talk about their case and we would have a discussion with them. Um, in a number of cases like this, um, you know, someone like Alex would probably meet with them separately as well to get more in-depth detail
02:26:32 as well to get more in-depth detail about what had happened. Um, we can see that a lawyer is involved here in relation to this meeting with uh, Chief Superintendent Foy, whether that was for civil or criminal proceedings. Um, would
02:26:44 civil or criminal proceedings. Um, would that be something that um, Alex would be the prime person to be involved with? would he be the one that would sit down with people who were looking for support from your group? I I think most likely, Alex, during that period. Yeah.
02:26:58 period. Yeah. There's another legal matter that I want to uh
02:27:02 to uh ask you a question about. MS00003397,
02:27:06 please
02:27:10 report the 22nd of May 2000.
02:27:18 And this is in relation to a London Tonight program, a fly on the wall documentary following Brixham police. And I think what happened was somebody's shop was raided and uh there was no evidence to support that he had been
02:27:30 evidence to support that he had been handling uh stolen mobile phones and that he had turned to Bindman solicitors for help and they'd advised him to seek
02:27:46 for help and they'd advised him to seek a letter of apology from the local chief superintendent which would have been uh Mr. Foy, is that right? Mhm. Yeah. Um,
02:27:53 it does go on to say that armed with such an apology, they will then seek to sue the police for damages and should no such letter be forthcoming, then they anticipate many years of legal wrangling with an uncertain result at the end. to
02:28:07 with an uncertain result at the end. to assist him in this quest for an apology privacy has sought the assistance of MFJ and the Lambbeath Police Consultative Committee.
02:28:20 Committee. So, do you recall this particular case? I I do recall it because it was I remember him speaking about um the impact of of of that that TV coverage. It it was devastating for him and his business. Would
02:28:36 business. Would his case have been a matter of an MFJ public meeting?
02:28:43 public meeting? No, it would have been a one Well, well, I mean, all of our meetings were public. It would have been one of our weekly meetings that we discussed it. So, when you say a weekly meeting, is that a smaller
02:28:54 that a smaller It's a smaller group, but it's open. So, we often have new people coming. So, it wasn't but it but it was a weekly meeting. It would have probably been the core organizers who were there. and when specific matters are being dealt with. So, uh, legal advice, legal strategy,
02:29:06 legal advice, legal strategy, um, you've said that Alex would often speak with the legal team and the the person involved.
02:29:17 person involved. Um, to what extent was David Hagen involved in those either one-to-one or small group meetings? He would have been at the weekly meetings. I don't think he would have been involved in the more one-to-one meetings that Alex would have with
02:29:30 meetings that Alex would have with people that were more in-depth. Um, and I don't think he would have been involved in a meeting with the solicitor, but you know, in this situation, this guy came to our meeting, our our our weekly meeting, and and he
02:29:42 our our our weekly meeting, and and he said this. He said that this is what I need to get um um so that I can pursue my case. And and Hagen reported on it. He's essentially telling the police,
02:29:59 He's essentially telling the police, don't do the letter of apology because if you do, it opens you up to civil liability. I mean, he's giving the police heads up on on a legal strategy that someone brought to our meeting, which is pretty disgraceful.
02:30:13 which is pretty disgraceful. I'd like to move to the ban on CS spray campaign.
02:30:18 campaign. So, this is a a campaign around 1998. Um, there are a number of different reports on this. I don't intend to go to all of them, but to set this in context, um you say in your statement that this was a successful local campaign
02:30:30 was a successful local campaign involving protests, lobbying the Lambeath Community Police Consultative
02:30:44 Lambeath Community Police Consultative Group, public meetings, lobbying MPs, um and uh and such like. Ibrahim
02:30:48 Ibrahim is somebody that we've heard about in this inquiry. He died after being uh assaulted, restrained and sprayed by CS spray in 1996. And at this stage in 98 9798,
02:31:04 And at this stage in 98 9798, um you say there was a growing evidence of the dangers of CS spray in general and particularly the form of CS spray used by the MPS. Was that the the basis for the campaign at the time? Yes.
02:31:19 Yes. Can we have up on screen please MPS 40717?
02:31:21 40717? It's behind tab B5. This is a report of the 14th I imagine that's supposed to be say the 12th 14th of December 1997. We can see that it
02:31:32 of December 1997. We can see that it relates to a um a a a meeting of the Lambeath Police Consultative Committee on the 2nd of December 1997 when 10 members from the MFJ attended
02:31:45 when 10 members from the MFJ attended and you were there in order to protest against the introduction of CS spray at Brixham Police Station. Is that something that you recall? Yeah, I mean obviously I can't recall the specifics. I think we um we we
02:32:01 the specifics. I think we um we we raised the CS spray campaign in multiple of the police consultative community groups and we can see in paragraph two that essentially the the demand was that CS spray should not be introduced by the police in Brixham until a proper consultation had taken place. Um had
02:32:13 consultation had taken place. Um had that not occurred then can you take it that there'd been no consultation about CS spray?
02:32:18 CS spray? No, there had not.
02:32:30 No, there had not. And this was so in October 1997 that was the unlawful killing verdict for Ibrahim. Um so this was kind of following on from that. It notes that the committee had originally asked for more information
02:32:42 originally asked for more information from the police police on CS spray prior to its introduction but the information had not been forthcoming. um stoked by the MFJ though um there was this attitude angered a
02:32:55 um there was this attitude angered a large number of people in the public gallery.
02:32:56 gallery. Um sorry I should have read the f the sentence before that. It says however most of the members were happy that the spray should continue to be available whilst they awaited for more information and that's what something that that was
02:33:13 and that's what something that that was something that angered MFJ and then the others who were there in attendance at the meeting. Do you recall that? I do. And I would say that even if MFJ had not been in that meeting, the community would have been angered by the committee saying, "Oh, well, bring it in anyway, even though we don't know the
02:33:31 anyway, even though we don't know the dangers." That didn't need MFJ to stoke anyone. People were angry that this dangerous weapon in a was being on given to the police in a context where there was daily police harassment. So, it didn't lead us to Stoke anything.
02:33:43 Stoke anything. Uh, moving to the comment on this page.
02:34:09 We can see that um the events were seen as a success by the MFJ. Essentially the the meeting was uh paused and the disorder was pre-planned by them meaning uh MFJ with the main protagonist during
02:34:24 uh MFJ with the main protagonist during the evening being Lewis Karen Doyle Tony Guard and Alex Olard. Had you gone there with an intention to cause any disorder?
02:34:39 cause any disorder? There was no disorder. It's completely false. We went there with a list of demands calling for CS spray to be withdrawn. The whole entire purpose of those Lambeath police community consultative groups is for people to intervene and people frequently raised
02:34:54 intervene and people frequently raised motions and raised demands and asked for things to be done. There was no disorder. There was disagreement. There was argument. There was robust
02:35:05 was argument. There was robust discussion. There was no disorder. It's completely false. The third paragraph on this extract says that the MFJ view CS spray use the issue as their next major campaign. With an
02:35:18 as their next major campaign. With an apparently weak committee, the MFJ hoped to mobilize public concern against the spray and build effective street opposition against it. Does that ring bells with you? Was that the objective?
02:35:32 bells with you? Was that the objective? What does it even mean? build effective street opposition. What are they talking about? This bears no relation to what the movement for justice was doing. We had in January 1998, we launched the
02:35:43 had in January 1998, we launched the campaign around CS spray. We raised it at that Lambeath Police Community Consultative meeting. We had a public meeting. We then attended the next police consultative committee where we got a vote where they said they would withdraw the use of the CS spray in
02:35:55 withdraw the use of the CS spray in Lambbeath pending further consultation. We had press coverage. We held a public meeting again. We had a picket of the police station. We a family a black
02:36:06 police station. We a family a black family were sprayed by CS spray outside King's College Hospital. In the midst of all that we brought that family to the police consultative meeting. We brought we there was experts coming to the
02:36:20 we there was experts coming to the police consultative meeting. This was a successful local campaign against an issue that fe people felt passionate about because some people had died.
02:36:31 about because some people had died. Ibrahim say had died after being sprayed with CS spray. No one wanted it. There is a report I I'm not going to take you to it, but for the record, it's MPS uh triple0790
02:36:44 MPS uh triple0790 that does note at paragraph 3 there was widespread community support for the CS spray issue. Um, which is what you've said. One document I would like to display MPS0833
02:37:08 behind tab B8 is in relation to one of the um police community consultative uh committee meetings.
02:37:18 This is the report of the 6th of February 98 in relation to a meeting on the 5th of February 98. Um the MFJ had attended a meeting and it says you made another intervention on the issue of CS spray
02:37:29 spray and and a vote agrees to call on police to suspend the use of spray in Lambeath pending further investigation. And that's what you were talking about just a moment ago
02:37:41 a moment ago and you also spoke about experts. Um, paragraph two here we can see that after the police presentation of the case for the CS spray, Alexawad of the
02:37:52 case for the CS spray, Alexawad of the MFJ made a presentation beginning with a 10-minute channel 4 news report on the spray which was highly critical of it. Uh, there were then various speakers from the floor. MFJ speakers included
02:38:05 from the floor. MFJ speakers included Lewis, Karen Doyle, Tony Guard. Did you speak Did you speak on the issue? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I did. Uh but it says the most potent speech however was
02:38:25 says the most potent speech however was made by a doctor Robert Jones who stated that as a cancer specialist he had been working on CS spray since the 60s and then he launched into a very damning analysis of it. Um Dr. Jones wasn't known to the MFJ. Is that right? Yeah. No, we met him at that meeting. Um and his contribution met with near stunned disbelief by them at how effective and supportive of their argument uh his argument was.
02:38:41 Um,
02:38:51 paragraph three
02:38:59 says that the MFJ have no illusions that this vote means that the police will stop using CS spray. They do however view it as a fantastic propaganda base from which to attack all future use of
02:39:15 from which to attack all future use of the spray by police especially if injury is caused and their intention now is to bring about a situation where every police officer in Lambbeirth knows that to use the spray will have political repercussions. Was that something you were trying to
02:39:28 Was that something you were trying to bring about this this fear of using what could be an effective weapon? A deadly weapon. Yes, we we absolutely wanted the complete withdrawal of a deadly weapon from the hands of the
02:39:40 deadly weapon from the hands of the police who were known to harass people and kill people. Yes, we wanted the withdrawal of CS spray. Um, when you say it's a deadly weapon, it is classed as a firearm, isn't it?
02:39:52 it is classed as a firearm, isn't it? It should only be used when absolutely necessary. Is that is that your understanding of it? Well, I I I I don't know that exact phrasiology. Um,
02:39:59 Um, was it a a a propaganda base? This use of the word propaganda again I I don't
02:40:11 of the word propaganda again I I don't know what it means like so propaganda is like it's flyers, right? It's flyers, it's talking, it's meetings, it's speaking. Like they say that that like that's a a bad thing or something subversive and dangerous. But like
02:40:24 subversive and dangerous. But like you know the the press releases of the public inquiry are propaganda. What what it it means nothing. So much of these
02:40:37 it it means nothing. So much of these these reports again I restate that they reflect the SDS delusion. They do not reflect what we were campaigning for and what our intentions were. Can I go to the last paragraph on this document, please?
02:40:57 Um, MFJ will now be pressing for a meeting with Kate Hoey at the House of Commons to further push their case. Did you have a meeting with Miss Hoy?
02:41:08 a meeting with Miss Hoy? I can't remember. We probably We probably did. We met with lots of MPs during that period. So, I assume we did. And references made to speakers that included Dr. Peter Gray who was the expert on the Channel 4 program and Dr.
02:41:27 expert on the Channel 4 program and Dr. Robert Jones who was the the the expert you say is who was so effective at the committee meeting. Yeah.
02:41:34 Yeah. Um so was it right then that there was a vast amount of support for this campaign?
02:41:39 campaign? Mhm. Yes. That from all multiple quarters. It was a very successful campaign and and it was there wasn't a
02:41:52 campaign and and it was there wasn't a single arrest during the campaign. There was no disorder. It was legitimate campaigning activities, demonstrations, meetings, experts, reports, MPs. It it was all the things that by any means necessary. This
02:42:11 things that by any means necessary. This is a this is actually it was interesting reading these reports because I thought oh this is exactly what MFJ did that this is what MFJ did. We ran very successful local campaigns on specific issues and we utilized all the means of of democratic
02:42:28 of democratic um activity that that we had that we could to to to win to win for the community. I'd like to ask you about another campaign, Justice for the Broomfield School three.
02:42:41 School three. That was in 2000. Um, the context of that being on the 20th of October 2000, a gang of armed Turkish men entered Broomfield School and attacked a black student who was hospitalized. Is that
02:42:52 student who was hospitalized. Is that your recollection of of that incident which led to the campaign? Yeah.
02:42:55 Yeah. And who were the Broomfield School three? So after that happened, I can't remember if it was the same day or if it was the day after, but a group of um school students from Broomfield School spotted the guy who had done the attack
02:43:07 spotted the guy who had done the attack on a bus and there was a police officer nearby and they told the police officer that's the guy who did the attack and the police officer just told them to go away and and didn't do anything. They
02:43:22 away and and didn't do anything. They got very upset and angry. police, more police were called um and um the the police arrested those students basically for for demanding that that the police did something about this person who had attacked their friend. Um so several of
02:43:37 attacked their friend. Um so several of them were charged with I can't remember exactly what the charges was. It may have been assaulting the police. It may have been some sort of public order offense.
02:43:48 Uh these were school children in school uniforms.
02:43:55 uniforms. They were. And I think the campaign held meetings and it was in people's homes, wasn't it? One of the mothers. Yeah. She she had people in her home meeting. [laughter] So it was the home of one of the students who had been arrested.
02:44:07 students who had been arrested. Yes. Um I'm I don't need to display this but in HN81's witness statement at paragraph 118 he said while the meeting took place in a private home it was a public meeting and I think about 20
02:44:19 public meeting and I think about 20 people attended including significant uh uh uh pe figures from the SWP the socialist workers party do you recall those meetings absolutely would not have been a public meeting we did not have
02:44:34 been a public meeting we did not have public meetings in people's homes that would be ridiculous ridiculous and dangerous to do. Why was that? Because it would potentially make those people a target for fascists or any anything could happen if you
02:44:45 any anything could happen if you publicize someone's home address. Of course, we wouldn't publicize someone's home address. These were meetings organized by the family for people who were supportive of their campaign to
02:45:03 were supportive of their campaign to talk about next steps in the campaign. Can I display please MPS 30 4771?
02:45:13 It's behind tab B258 of the MFJ bundle. It's a report of the 1st of December 2000 entitled MFJ in Southgate. It reports on the Broomfield School three campaign.
02:45:26 Paragraph two.
02:45:37 Um, they were about 14 years old, some of the children that were arrested, weren't they? Um,
02:45:46 the agitating parents reported that many of the other parents are refusing to support them, but nevertheless, they seem to be building a small but volatile support base. And especially with the
02:46:00 support base. And especially with the input of input of MFJ, the court hearing is likely to be confrontational. Were MFJ looking to uh cause confrontation at the court hearing? No, of course not. And can I just say that like again this is another example of
02:46:12 like again this is another example of the the deeply offensive reporting that happens in this in these reports undercover reports that that parents of children who are facing lifealtering criminal charges are reduced to
02:46:25 criminal charges are reduced to agitating parents. It it's it's just despicable.
02:46:36 despicable. It's suggested that the initial estimate is for a crowd of about 30 who are unlikely to show any respect for authority. Was that your understanding of the group that was there to support the children and their parents at court?
02:46:47 and their parents at court? No, it's my understanding of how racist the SDS were.
02:47:02 the SDS were. And why do you say this is reflective of racism? because it's denigrating parents and children who are facing racism and who have [clears throat] faced attack from both a racist and from the police and who
02:47:11 and who denigrating them as just confrontational and violent agitational and that's fundamentally racism that the police throughout all of these reports the
02:47:22 throughout all of these reports the focus on black people and you know there was a report where he talked about a demonst demonstration and says, "Oh, it was mostly white, so there will be no trouble on it." That the all the reports drip with their prejudice. I
02:47:34 drip with their prejudice. I can see at the end of this document, the source comment says that unlike many cases that MFJ have been involved with, there does not seem to be anything glaringly wrong with the police's action
02:47:49 glaringly wrong with the police's action in brackets. Of course, though, although of course the in quotes victims do not see it that way. Therefore, they are likely to be found guilty. Uh, and the
02:48:00 likely to be found guilty. Uh, and the present topic topicality of violence in and around schools give gives added weight to this case in that it originated with the arrested kids alleging that they had been attacked by others and then getting angry at what
02:48:12 others and then getting angry at what they saw as a lack of police action. Uh, the other kids were Turkish, the arrested ones were black. They see it as a racial issue.
02:48:24 a racial issue. Um, did did you as MFJ see this as a racial issue? We saw that the police's actions as racist that they instead of listening to the black children who were telling them that's the person who attacked us, they
02:48:41 that's the person who attacked us, they attacked the black children instead. So, we saw that as racist. What we tried to do in terms of um the the wider community is we sought to bring the black community and the Turkish Kurdish community together on the issue of police racism and violence um which
02:48:57 police racism and violence um which affected both communities at different points.
02:49:03 And can I just say like the backhanded unlike many cases that MFJ has been involved with there does not seem to be anything glaring wrong. So, he's
02:49:17 anything glaring wrong. So, he's effectively admitting that we were we were getting justice for people who deserve justice. It's like a weird backhanded comment. I want to move on and ask you about another few documents that um uh touch on the issue of racism.
02:49:38 Can I display please MPS 4740? This is behind tab B15 of the MFJ bundle.
02:49:46 This is a report of the second of the 1297
02:49:48 1297 and relates to a collaboration between MFJ and an Ivorian relief action group. Do you recall that?
02:50:00 Do you recall that? Oh, I do. I remember Iraq very well. And what was the purpose of that collaboration? They used to meet in the same building that we met we met at and we shared we shared we shared politics. They were actually a group who had been involved in um the a very a militant student
02:50:18 in um the a very a militant student union in in Ivory Coast um and and most of them had come over after repression um and and we shared a lot of politics with them. So we we organized together with them on a number of occasions. The final sentence in on this report
02:50:30 The final sentence in on this report says that if this association can be developed, the MFJ will stand much more of a chance of connecting with young black men in brackets in the political sense.
02:50:41 sense. Was was it a a stepping stone to engaging more with young black men in the wider community? No, it's ridiculous. And again, it's this SDS obsession with with race um
02:50:58 this SDS obsession with with race um that didn't reflect the reality of what Movement for Justice was. Movement for Justice was an integrated He's just described multiple meetings that were actually majority black. Um we didn't have to stand more of a chance of
02:51:14 have to stand more of a chance of collect like this is not our this is not us. This is this is Hagen. This is SDS. This is their delusion. I want to ask you a question about uh the response to police federation
02:51:27 the response to police federation comments on a channel 4 report regarding uh the Michael Menson case. Uh this was a report of the 18th of September 1998. Can I display please MPS01353?
02:51:43 It's behind tab B64 of the MFJ bundle.
02:51:57 MPS triple0 1353
02:52:30 Yeah. Triple01 353.
02:52:46 Do you recall um the Michael Menson case?
02:52:57 the Michael Menson case? I do. It wasn't a case we were um extensively involved with, but I do I of course recall the case there.
02:53:06 There was there was a a a Channel 4 report, a feature where Mike Bennett from the police federation um commented on that. Uh his comments were seen as
02:53:25 uh to be working against the the uh family justice campaign, if I can put it that way. In the report, it says that the the inquest result will be seized upon by activists as giving credence to the
02:53:38 activists as giving credence to the allegations that police are racist and closedminded. And there is a source comment on that report that says it is not the response of the activists which is important as
02:53:50 of the activists which is important as that is entirely predictable, but rather that of the black community in general. Thank you. That should be up in front of you now to to assist. His
02:54:05 latest comments are likely to further inflame the situation and alienate members of the black community.
02:54:16 In terms of a response to the Channel 4 program on this matter, what do you say about um
02:54:27 what do you say about um these comments? Does that reflect how MFJ
02:54:32 MFJ uh uh uh responded to that report, that news report? Well, I mean, again, it doesn't take intelligence to understand that when someone is publicly racist that people will be angry. Like
02:54:45 angry. Like it it's incredible to me that so much money was pumped into the SDS to produce reports like this, which like everyone was angry about those comments. Of
02:55:00 was angry about those comments. Of course they were. They were racist and like it doesn't need intelligence to figure that out.
02:55:07 You comment in your witness statement that you knew of people in in in your
02:55:18 that you knew of people in in in your wider group um people from the community that were crying out you say to assist the police in what the community's response to a a feature like this may be or more in general uh the relationship between police and the black community
02:55:34 between police and the black community in particular. there was can you help us with just expanding on that how that would work? So the police lambeath police community consultative group. was um the the chair and the committee were a group of sorry a group of um um
02:55:46 a group of sorry a group of um um community members whose whole kind of remit was um um advising the police on the views of the black community and um advising on issues um of different
02:56:00 advising on issues um of different operations that were taking place and and and stuff like that and intervening and all all that kind of stuff. But you
02:56:11 and all all that kind of stuff. But you also had you had church leaders, you had youth workers, there was people crying out and and to the police for consultation and for for answers and for
02:56:24 consultation and for for answers and for communication. The the the views that we were expressing were not unique. They were not unique and they were not imposed and and somehow, you know, forced on people that we changed their
02:56:35 forced on people that we changed their mind and made them more angry. they were already angry and there was loads of people who really were begging to work with the police um looking for funding for for community groups and liaison
02:56:48 for for community groups and liaison groups and all that kind of stuff. It was you know the police just had to speak to them just had to engage with them and and you know all of this
02:57:04 them and and you know all of this reporting is absolutely pointless. Can I display please MPS uh 4425?
02:57:13 It's a report of the first of July 97 in relation to a meeting regarding uh police harassment.
02:57:20 In the first paragraph here, we can see that um Movement for Justice, the Lambbeath Movement for Justice, held a meeting at the Brixton Recreation Center on the 26th of June 97 to draw attention to what they deemed to be police
02:57:37 to what they deemed to be police harassment and some 40 people attended, 10 of whom were white. Of the 30 black people present, 20 were young males.
02:57:49 I'll give you an opportunity to to to look over this report, refresh your memory in relation to I remember it. I remember it. You recall being at that meeting, do you?
02:57:59 you? And I recall I recall the report and I do I do actually recall the meeting. Not in detail, but I I remember that meeting. And in terms of the exchanges and the discussions between people uh uh who were white or black, what do you
02:58:13 who were white or black, what do you recall about the significance of that? Would you put the significance uh on it to the same degree that is set out in this report? No, absolutely not. Was there people who would raise in our
02:58:28 Was there people who would raise in our meetings um queries or or concerns about the fact that Movement for Justice was an integrated organization? Of course. And Movement for Justice had those political discussions with people all the time where we explained why we
02:58:42 the time where we explained why we believed that that was necessary. Um, but the way he describes it, I mean, it's just again, it's this obsession with black people and the kind of
02:58:53 with black people and the kind of potential of violence of black people. It it's just dripping with it. You comment at paragraph 98.14
02:59:04 You comment at paragraph 98.14 of your witness statement in relation to another report. I don't need to display it at 06198. um where a comment is made by uh HN81. It describes MFJ as a white or mixed
02:59:16 It describes MFJ as a white or mixed organization headed by a homosexual. They have no standing among the young black community that they continue to target.
02:59:27 target. You comment in relation to that? It's just deeply Why did you find that offensive? It's just deeply offensive. It's offensive on so many levels. It's offensive a alleging that the black community is somehow more homophobic
02:59:43 community is somehow more homophobic than every other community. Um it's it's saying that um Movement for Justice was a white organization. It wasn't a white organization. It was an integrated organization with black leaders, with black leaders, with gay leaders, with lesbian leaders. That was what our
02:59:59 lesbian leaders. That was what our organization was. That did not in the slightest
03:00:04 slightest mean that we had less support from the community in Lambbeath. We had a petition after Alex was sacked. We got 30,000 people and this was before this
03:00:18 30,000 people and this was before this was before the internet. This was door knocking and stalls and going to the recreation center having 30,000 conversations with people who supported us. like we had widespread support in
03:00:31 us. like we had widespread support in the local community, black and white. When I say the local community of Lambeath, the local community of Lambeath is actually integrated that the workers of Lambeath Council are actually integrated. This delusion that
03:00:43 actually integrated. This delusion that the SDS have about movement for justice, about the community of Lambeath, and about the black community in general, it is fundamentally through the lens of racism. That's it. Black people are a threat. They're violent. That's what this is saying. And
03:01:01 violent. That's what this is saying. And it's really gross. And and you know, the notion that we would that we would give in to any notion of, oh, don't give flyers to to white people in the room is absolutely ridiculous. If
03:01:15 If So, you're saying that didn't happen? You didn't just give flyers out to black people in the room? Of course it didn't happen. I mean, I mean, it's just so ridiculous that that of course it didn't happen. And it and and
03:01:32 and this is this this report is like just a um the the perfect example of the STS delusion and their racism. What What about the suggestion that uh there'll be mass protests at the police station whenever a black person is arrested
03:01:45 arrested about halfway down the first page? Well,
03:01:49 Well, if someone is wrongfully arrested, we're going to we're going to demonstrate at the police station. Of course, nothing wrong with that. It's actually a a a democratic right supposedly. Was was
03:02:02 democratic right supposedly. Was was there any sense that um if it's a black person, it must be an unlawful arrest?
03:02:13 Well, every situation is in I mean, it's just this is kind it's just ridiculous, right? So if we are going to do a demonstration at a police station because someone was arrested, it would have be been because either that arrest was observed in our don't walk on by
03:02:25 was observed in our don't walk on by campaign and it would have been seen to be harassment and baseless or there would have been some um something that happened in the course of that arrest that alerted us to it. So it's just like did we demonstrate whenever any random
03:02:40 did we demonstrate whenever any random person was arrested? No, of course not. We've been having demonstrations 10 times a day outside the police station. It's ridiculous. What about this sense that there be mass pickets at all inquests when a black person has died in custody?
03:02:55 person has died in custody? Was it was it uh on the basis of uh race that you would protest or pick it outside an inquest? We we during that period we supported Harry Stanley who was he was in fact Scottish but because
03:03:08 was he was in fact Scottish but because someone viewed him as Irish armed police went and shot him. He was deaf in one ear and couldn't hear them calling out to him. They shot him cuz he had a table leg. And um Dermish O'Neal who was
03:03:19 leg. And um Dermish O'Neal who was Irish, white and Irish. Like we didn't just support black people who were victims of police brutality. We also supported Irish people, Asian people, anyone who was and in including any
03:03:30 anyone who was and in including any white people who were subject to an unlawful um who who were died in the course of a police stop. We would support them as well. It wasn't the way this is phrased is is all
03:03:41 this is phrased is is all [clears throat] is all wrong and it's through their own screwed up view. And similarly with that third uh bullet point there in terms of petitions fronted by families of dead black
03:03:53 fronted by families of dead black prisoners calling on the home secretary to prosecute the police officers concerned. Again, was it dictated by the race of the person that had died? I I can't even I can't even recall that
03:04:04 can't even I can't even recall that demand. I assume it was someone coming to the meeting and saying it if if indeed it happened. But what's wrong with petitions petitions calling for um prosecution of police officers when someone's died in
03:04:19 police officers when someone's died in custody? Like there's nothing wrong with that.
03:04:24 that. Um was it question was really in in in relation to whether it was dead black prisoners only or you know was it specifically on the base of somebody's race that a petition would be fronted?
03:04:35 race that a petition would be fronted? I I honestly I can't even remember that demand. I don't remember making that demand. But but no, I mean, if there was an unjust if there was a, you know, there's multiple people at the moment still locked up under joint enterprise
03:04:47 still locked up under joint enterprise and and and they're both black, Asian, and white, and we would support all of them to to get out of prison. Um because joint enterprise is fundamentally unjust. So, you know, we we didn't I I
03:05:01 unjust. So, you know, we we didn't I I don't think we would have specified in that way.
03:05:03 that way. I'd like to ask you specifically about
03:05:18 I'd like to ask you specifically about um public disorder and violence in a in a couple of uh key instances. Um can I have on display please MPS 301769? It's behind tab B15.
03:05:34 This reports on a steward's meeting relating to the National Civil Rights March in 1999. Can you recall that?
03:05:46 March in 1999. Can you recall that? Again, I remember the march. I remember the poster disaster. And I can't I can't remember the detail of the meeting, but I remember there was one. And I'm assuming I was there. I would I would definitely have been there.
03:05:59 definitely have been there. What? Why was the poster campaign a disaster? Oh, it was cuz they were put on they were put on card and it takes you forever to tie four corners of a card to some railing and it just became such a ch an exhausting chore trying to put these posters up everywhere. It was it was kind of just a bit ridiculous.
03:06:14 it was kind of just a bit ridiculous. There's an indication in this report that um the MFJ were not in favor of riots or an escalation of violence. Do do you agree with that? Yes.
03:06:29 um working towards a second paragraph.
03:06:38 The leadership of MFJ had no real idea as to what numbers may attend this event, but MFJ were working towards a likely figure of 500, hoping it would be many more.
03:06:53 um in an event like this is a fairly big campaign
03:06:58 campaign um other organizations involved as well as MFJ. Is that right? Yeah, there would have been other organizations supporting that march. I I think I think I'd probably provided some publicity for the march that said them.
03:07:12 publicity for the march that said them. And were you one of the stewards? Would you act as a steward for MFJ's involvement in at marches like this? Yeah, I I would mainly be on the megaphone. I I got pretty good at chart leading, so I'd mainly be on the megaphone.
03:07:26 Um, paragraph three
03:07:42 [clears throat] says that those in command of the march have no control over the actions of uh sorry, the main topic of conversation revolved around how to deal with an intervention by the police. It's believed that the police would much would prefer the march to go quietly,
03:07:53 would prefer the march to go quietly, but it is felt that those in command of the march have no control over the actions of individual officers. Certainly, the crowd will be encouraged to voice their anger and taunting and spitting at the police will be acceptable. Was that something that you were aware of? Voicing Well, firstly,
03:08:09 were aware of? Voicing Well, firstly, voicing anger. Was that something that was done?
03:08:13 was done? All our demonstrations voiced anger. That's the purpose of a demonstration is to voice anger. Taunting police officers. We wouldn't have told people to taunt police officers. We we we have chants. There's there's a whole row of chants that we that we say and we have everyone
03:08:27 that we that we say and we have everyone focused on the chance which usually have our demands in them if we can. What about spitting at police officers? Absolutely not. [laughter]
03:08:39 Absolutely not. [laughter] Absolutely not spitting in general. I mean, you'd be just as likely to hit a fellow protester. What's the point in that?
03:08:41 that? It it goes on to say, however, MFJ do not want this event to descend into a riot. And although their outlook is by any means necessary, they believe that any escalation of violence would be
03:08:52 any escalation of violence would be counterproductive to their long aims. Now, you addressed that at the beginning of your evidence about not wanting people to be arrested. it diverts from your common uh uh purpose for being uh
03:09:09 your common uh uh purpose for being uh and was that something that was drilled into people that would be attending on behalf of MFJ? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I remember really early on when I was very young um a leading member um at that time. We were on I think it was a criminal
03:09:21 were on I think it was a criminal justice bill demonstration and one of the Kingsway people had picked up a stone or something and and he told put that down. Put that down. Like there
03:09:35 that down. Put that down. Like there there was a a general approach. We did not do things that would get us arrested. [laughter] And that was you know and it was even solidified more after the the the experience of having to do a legal defense campaign following um the Mini
03:09:48 defense campaign following um the Mini incident. Um so absolutely the the goal of of um
03:09:54 of of um what we want in a demonstration in a march is for that march to feel powerful. We want it to feel strong. That strength and power come from the size of the march. It comes from the
03:10:06 size of the march. It comes from the demands of the march. It comes from the the chanting of the march and it comes from the the goal of the march. So, you know, are we going somewhere to to deliver um a petition or are we going
03:10:19 deliver um a petition or are we going somewhere to um express anger about a particular thing like and it and it comes from are do those people go away feeling more powerful than they did before they went on that march and do
03:10:32 before they went on that march and do they go away with a plan of action for what else we can do to build our movement? That that's that's that's the purpose of of a march. In terms of the source comment at the end of this report, it says that in policing the event, it must be
03:10:47 policing the event, it must be remembered that this is MFJ's day. They intend to control the street and not allow the police to control them. Uh it
03:11:02 allow the police to control them. Uh it is an anti- police march, so the crowd's target will be marching alongside them. Uh and that being the case, MFJ will view their actions as defensive. in terms of this being your day not wanting to be controlled. Is that is that true? Is that
03:11:16 Is that is that true? Is that I can give an example. I can't remember if it was on this march or if it was on the earlier this isn't the 97. No, I think it might have been on the 97 march. Um, there was a moment in the march where the police were trying to get us to divert away from I think it
03:11:31 get us to divert away from I think it was Kennington Police Station to go down a different road and they were talking to Alex at the front. Um, and Alex stopped the march and he called me over. I had the megaphone and he put the proposal to the march. He said, "The police want us to march down this way,
03:11:44 police want us to march down this way, not go this way in front of Kennington Police Station." What do people want to do? We're going to hold a vote. And we held a mass vote on this march and
03:11:56 held a mass vote on this march and people voted, "No, we want to go down to to Kennington Police Station." Alex turned around to the police and was like, "That's what we're going to do." And the police moved aside and we went down to Kennington Police Station. So when you say um and but no arrests, no
03:12:15 when you say um and but no arrests, no disorder, no violence, it was it was us marching and asserting our power and control of the streets. Absolutely.
03:12:21 Uh what do you say about it being an anti police march? It was an anti police harassment, anti police racism march, anti police brutality, anti-deaths in police custody march.
03:12:35 march. Was there a sense that the crowds were looking to target the police officers that were policing the march? No. I mean I I mean and it's ridiculous because they had like I I remember they had like lines of police either side of this march. It was so ridiculous. Um
03:12:52 this march. It was so ridiculous. Um I've been on we held multiple marches through Brixton where there was no police. No police at all. Like we just marched around and we had a great it was powerful. We ended up in the market where we spoke and you know what? No
03:13:05 where we spoke and you know what? No disorder. Nothing. that the the the the the demonstrations that end up with disorder tend to be the demonstrations where there is an overpolicing of the demonstration. Um that that's my
03:13:19 demonstration. Um that that's my experience anyway. We we've had multiple demonstrations without any police and there's been no problems and there was no problems on that march either. They were right down either side. If anyone was thinking of targeting the police,
03:13:30 was thinking of targeting the police, they could have easily. No one was doing that.
03:13:31 that. There is a a a report MPS302043
03:13:41 please. It's behind tab B124 of the MFJ bundle and this is in relation to the Brixham Brick Lane and Compton Street bombings. Uh uh uh
03:14:02 David Copeland. Yes. Um it's in relation to a march uh triggered by that. The the date of the report is the 7th of May 199.
03:14:13 And uh you comment at paragraph 67 of your witness statement that this is one of the very few places where something which could be categorized as a public disorder actually did happen.
03:14:27 disorder actually did happen. Do you recall what was going on here? I'll give you a moment to look at the report. No, I remember it and I it's it's actually the o cuz I uh 400 500 documents. This was like
03:14:41 uh 400 500 documents. This was like literally the only place where I I found an actual report that could be said to be public disorder. So it is significant. Um so it relates to a march on Saturday the 1st of May.
03:14:55 1st of May. It was the May 99. Every year there's a Mayday march, but prior to that Mayday March, the Brixham bomb had happened. Um, and then the Brick Lane and the Compton Street bombing happened as well. The Compton Street bombing was right before Mayday. Um, and we, um, along with Unison, Lambeath Unison, um, it's
03:15:09 with Unison, Lambeath Unison, um, it's quite traditional for the Mayday March for there to be feeder marches from different areas, different communities. Um, and we decided that that we were going to do one from Brixton. Um, I worked to get actually the Kurdish
03:15:23 worked to get actually the Kurdish community from North London to join us on the Brixton march because of the significance of going from Brixton after this horrific um, fascist attack on our community. Um, and we marched from
03:15:39 community. Um, and we marched from Brixton to Trafalgar Square. We we we then marched to Compton Street um to Soho to mark what had just happened in Soho. Um and we had also been organizing in Brick Lane at that time as well. Um
03:15:57 in Brick Lane at that time as well. Um and the when we were at Soho, we held a rally and we had been told that there was another feeder march coming from East London and they were going to come and join us. Um and the police said, um, oh no, there's no march. we that we've
03:16:08 oh no, there's no march. we that we've there's no march coming to join you. We want you to go back to Trfalga Square. Um we actually did go back. We went we
03:16:21 Um we actually did go back. We went we started marching back to Trafala Square. We we actually did what the police said in that instance and um half when we were on um is it was it Tottenham Court Road when either Tan Cross or Tottenham Tottenham Court Road? It was um we saw this march from the East London Teachers
03:16:36 from the East London Teachers Association. Um so instantly we knew the police had lied to us um about this other march joining us and we were like right no we're going to join with that other march and we're going to go back to Soho um so that you know we can carry
03:16:52 to Soho um so that you know we can carry out that demonstration there um and then at Soho he describes I can't actually remember this pushing and pulling with the police um in in the end we did go back to Trfalgar Square um but that's
03:17:06 back to Trfalgar Square um but that's it. I mean, all he describes is um like he calls it a melee, but he's not specific. Like it what it would have been was the police trying to push us back and people standing still. That
03:17:24 back and people standing still. That that's it. That's the extent of it. And that that incident was directly caused by the police intervention, by the police lying to us about this other march. If they had have let us stay there till Ela came and joined that
03:17:36 there till Ela came and joined that rally, we would have had our rally and we would have gone back to Trafalga Square. So, so what's reported here is that the police finally blocked them off at Soho Square where a pushing match ensued. By this time, there were some
03:17:48 ensued. By this time, there were some 250 people left in the crowd. MFJ was pleased to be leading by example even though its banner had been broken in the
03:18:01 though its banner had been broken in the mele. So, a a pushing match. Can Who was that between? Well, I can't I can't actually remember, but it would have been the police and it would have been the police having a line and people the crowd up against that
03:18:15 and people the crowd up against that line and the police pushing people back. That that's what it would have been and that's generally it. Like that's the extent of it. But the my point about
03:18:28 extent of it. But the my point about this in particular is that that disorder I I don't even class that as disorder. It's just an an something that happens on demonstrations quite a lot. It it's
03:18:40 on demonstrations quite a lot. It it's not no one's throwing anything. No one's getting injured. Um this could not have been
03:18:46 been foreseen by any intelligence officer. This was caused by the police on the day. So, you hadn't gone to this march intending to cause any disorder? Absolutely not. Of course not.
03:19:00 Absolutely not. Of course not. Uh, were there any arrests as far as you recall?
03:19:03 recall? Absolutely no arrest in the entire period of this reporting um of Dave Hagen, there were zero arrests of anyone in Movement for Justice or around
03:19:14 in Movement for Justice or around Movement for Justice on any of our actions.
03:19:16 actions. Can I display please MPS05698?
03:19:27 This in is in relation to a Burmany march. It's behind tab 285 in the MFJ bundle.
03:19:36 Um this is in relation to a national front march that you opposed on Saturday the
03:19:47 march that you opposed on Saturday the 7th uh of April 2001. Do you recall this particular march? I I do. I mean I can't. So there were I think there were like three. The National Front targeted Burmany um that summer for a series of marches in their
03:20:06 summer for a series of marches in their keep Burmany white campaign. So I think there were three actual marches. So I can't remember exactly which of the three this was but I do absolutely remember th this this incident.
03:20:15 We can see that there is some uh charging of police lines
03:20:25 by MFJ revolution which was the youth wing of workers power um who ignored the directions of the ANL initially blocked the road and then charged the police lines.
03:20:35 lines. Do you remember that? Is that what MFJ were involved with? So what we want to do on an anti-fascist demonstration, I mean this is one of the few anti-fascist things we did because it was local to
03:20:46 things we did because it was local to us. Um this what we want to do in any anti-fascist mobilization is try we want to make it as difficult as possible for those fascists to recruit. Now the
03:20:58 those fascists to recruit. Now the fascists in that area were there was multiple racist attacks. It was like a a regular occurrence. It was a frightening place to be um for black people. This
03:21:13 place to be um for black people. This what we wanted to do was stop them from marching or in this in the absence of stopping them from marching, we would want to stop um anyone from joining them. So we don't want like local youth
03:21:26 them. So we don't want like local youth or anything like that to feel like it's a good option to join the fascists. So we would have tried to block the road. Yes. And I I don't I do remember um the
03:21:41 Yes. And I I don't I do remember um the I do very vividly recall um pulling Dave Hagen back from the police line because he was being way too aggressive with the police and I was concerned he was going to be arrested. And I remember
03:21:53 to be arrested. And I remember physically pulling him back from the police line and telling him to cal to calm down [laughter] to um and and he
03:22:05 calm down [laughter] to um and and he was, you know, when he says these pleas were rejected and most people present were up for it. He was up for it. He was the one who was really charging the police lines um and being aggressive with them. Um
03:22:24 with them. Um who else from MFJ was charging the police lines? I don't I don't recall us charging the police lines at all. There was a police line. We were So I have a like a material memory of it. There was like a wall that wasn't too far behind us. I think we were by Birmingham Burmany station. I I
03:22:38 were by Birmingham Burmany station. I I can't recall actually. So we didn't have far behind us. We were up against the police line. I I don't think we would have had charging implies running at the police line. That wasn't something we did. Why? Why would we do that?
03:22:54 did. Why? Why would we do that? Were you up against the police as a counterprotest for a for a march coming by?
03:23:00 by? We would have been up against the police and there would have been um pushing. The police would have been trying to push us back probably. Um but I don't recall charging a police line. That wouldn't be something we'd do.
03:23:17 wouldn't be something we'd do. Uh you mention um that you were pulling David Hagen back from the police. Yeah. Was that an unusual thing? Does that stick in your mind? Was that unusual behavior for him? It was really It So, I knew he had this obsession with f
03:23:31 So, I knew he had this obsession with f anti-fascist stuff. Um, but this was the first time I'd seen him kind of in action on an anti-fascist protest like active. I can't remember if um Dover was before I think Dover was before this,
03:23:42 before I think Dover was before this, but we didn't actually get involved in Dover. But anyway, this was the first time I'd And he was like really like it was stark how um aggressive he was
03:23:54 was stark how um aggressive he was being. It it was unusual. It was unusual for Movement for Justice. Movement for Justice were generally pretty disciplined and careful and thoughtful in what we did. Um but he was just going for it at these police officers and I I
03:24:08 for it at these police officers and I I have a very clear memory of pulling him back and telling him to to calm down. Were there any arrests at this march? Um,
03:24:18 Um, well, not not of our group. I don't know if there was arrests with any of the other because there was other anti-fascists in other areas. I I don't know if there's other But in our group, absolutely not. No arrests.
03:24:32 You've exhibited a photo to your witness statement. It's a photo at exhibit 8 that you say shows you pulling David Hagen back from the police lines. If we
03:24:44 Hagen back from the police lines. If we can have that up on screen, please. UCPI 38672.
03:25:01 Yeah. So, I'm the one um in the light purple t-shirt with the glasses. And you can see I'm I'm I'm pushing Hagen back from the police line. Is this is this You say this is uh the Burman Sea. Yes.
03:25:07 Yes. Uh march.
03:25:08 Uh march. Yeah.
03:25:10 Yeah. This is Burmany. And did you engage with the police there?
03:25:18 there? No. No. I was pulling Hagen back. And
03:25:21 And I mean I mean it's I mean look how many police there are and how many of us there are. It's ridiculous that we would charge their line. And you're saying the the person with this red circle around you're saying that's
03:25:30 that's that's Hagen. David Hagen. Um and and you're saying this picture was taken once you'd pulled him back. Is that right? Is that what is that what we can see you doing?
03:25:44 that what we can see you doing? This is actually me in the in the action of pulling him back. You can kind of see there's a police officer's hand around his arm there and that's because he was he was he was being really um aggressive with them and he was going at them and I
03:25:58 with them and he was going at them and I I pulled him back and I think after this I kind of shoved him back and I said calm down. Like he just looked out of control to be honest. Can can we see in this picture that the National Front
03:26:13 this picture that the National Front marched at all? At what stage does this occur? Had the march been gone? Are we awaiting it? I can't tell. It's It's hard to see. I I I feel like they weren't This wasn't a point whether they were there. I I I don't know. I don't know.
03:26:26 don't know. I don't know. Okay. But I think this was Burmany police station behind us. Not Burmany police station. Burmany train station. Thank you. That taken down.
03:26:40 Sir, it may be an opportune moment to break for lunch. I do. Um, we'll start again um at two on the dots if we may.