Karen Doyle, a founding member of Movement for Justice (MFJ), testifies about being infiltrated by undercover officer HN81 'David Hagen' during the late 1990s and early 2000s. She challenges police characterizations of MFJ as violent, describing their work as peaceful community organizing around anti-racism and justice campaigns.
00:22:04 Good afternoon everybody. And although I'm speaking to a vacant um almost vacant public gallery, uh can I remind those uh who will sit in it that uh
00:22:16 those uh who will sit in it that uh today's proceedings are being broadcast after a 10-minute delay. Mobile telephones may be used to say what uh the person has heard during our
00:22:30 the person has heard during our hearings, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. They may not be used for photography or recording. Yes. Yes.
00:22:33 Thank you, sir. Um,
00:22:45 Miss Doyle, we left before lunch speaking about the Burmany March, the anti-fascist march. Can I um ask that the following document be put up on screen, mps05927.
00:23:00 It's behind tab B287 of the MFJ bundle.
00:23:14 This is a document dated the 14th of May 2001. It relates to an event at Burmany on Saturday the 12th of May. Is this the same
00:23:23 same um
00:23:25 um event that we were talking about just before lunch? I believe it was. See, I I struggle. I know there was three um
00:23:37 struggle. I know there was three um three marches that the NF did did that summer in Burman, but I can only remember us mobilizing for one. So I think it was the same one, but it could be one of the other ones, but sorry.
00:23:50 be one of the other ones, but sorry. I think it was the same one. At this event when people start to disperse, there is um an instant where people deemed as
00:24:03 an instant where people deemed as fascists run off into an estate. And I'll give you a moment just to have a look over the report, but it's reported
00:24:17 look over the report, but it's reported that people from MFJ also take uh chase. Um and u there's a sense that uh there was a an intention to uh chase and beat up the fascists once they had
00:24:29 and beat up the fascists once they had uh left off into the estate. What what what do you recall about that incident? Again, this is one of those incidents with Dave that with Hagen that really sticks into my mind. Um because I I I
00:24:48 sticks into my mind. Um because I I I can't recall the the confrontation with um fascists that that he talked about and that Alex talked about, but I remember vividly that a group of um uh group of fascists ran off into an
00:24:59 group of fascists ran off into an estate. So there was a a road into an estate with big builtup buildings either side and they ran off round the corner and Hagen was absolutely
00:25:14 and Hagen was absolutely determined to go after them. Um the only reason I can't obviously remember his exact words but it would be we've got them on the run. He wanted to go and give them a beating and myself and Alex were like absolutely not. We're not
00:25:26 were like absolutely not. We're not doing that. were leaving the area. And it it's really weird how he presents it that there were people who were against that decision because my memory the only
00:25:42 that decision because my memory the only person from Movement for Justice who was against that decision to leave the area was Dave Hagen. I hadn't remembered I know Alex said he called him a coward. I hadn't remembered that. Um, but I remember his sense of being just insensed that we wouldn't um go after
00:26:01 insensed that we wouldn't um go after these guys into the estate. Um, and and that that memory just really sticks in my head.
00:26:11 my head. Another event that you make reference to in your statement at paragraph 80.23.4 Four is the event of an NF march, a national front march in Dover on the 5th of December 1998. Um the document is NPS01572.
00:26:25 If we can have that up please.
00:26:38 simply says a small group from MFJ and class war will be in do on Saturday the 5th of December to oppose the national front march. What can you tell us about that
00:26:44 that event?
00:26:45 event? It's
00:26:47 It's Hagen had been raising this National Front mobilization in the movement for justice meeting and with us as individuals so with me with Alex with other people and he was trying to get
00:27:00 other people and he was trying to get people to go. No one wanted to go to do like no one wanted to go to do. I was trying to be supportive and encouraging of someone who wanted to do something.
00:27:11 of someone who wanted to do something. And so I said, "Okay, I'll go with you to do." And it was literally me and Hagen in his car and him driving us to
00:27:24 Hagen in his car and him driving us to do. It was just the small group was me and Hagen. That's it. And when we got there, we didn't actually join the anti-fascist mo demonstr. Well, there wasn't much. It it was quite it was all over the place. We just kind of walked around the area and I I have a vivid
00:27:35 around the area and I I have a vivid memory of walking along the seafront with Hagen and a senior police officer
00:27:46 with Hagen and a senior police officer walking towards us and saying all right Karen and I remember being really like what was that? Why why is this person saying my name? Why is this police off? And obviously I know now because they were told movement for justice would be there. Um but yeah, the only reason I
00:27:58 there. Um but yeah, the only reason I was there was because I felt bad for Day Hagen. Um I felt bad that he was raising this issue and no one wanted to go [clears throat]
00:28:13 [clears throat] and that you were quite clear that an officer had spoken to you, knew your name.
00:28:14 name. Yeah.
00:28:18 Yeah. Did you become involved in any disorder at that event? No. Was just walking around over. Did Did David Hagen become involved in any disorder? No,
00:28:34 any disorder? No, you've spoken about um opposing farright marches in the sense that you would try and enclose the march or stop other youths from the area engaging with the march or or joining the march.
00:28:48 march or or joining the march. To what extent does that involve physical confrontation between you, the march itself, and any of the march supporters in the community? any any of the fascists? Very very little. I've actually not
00:28:59 actually not I've actually not been on a an anti-fascist mobilization where we had contact with the fascists. Um so most of
00:29:13 contact with the fascists. Um so most of the time it was trying to block an area. So trying to block an area or trying to make it so that the police had to enclose the fascist oops had to enclose the fascist march um to make it harder for people to join them. though you know um
00:29:28 um there wouldn't be any contact and any of the ones obviously there was stuff before I was involved but like I say movement for justice during that period did very little anti-fascist activity we would go to anti-fascist demonstrations but um it wasn't our main focus of work
00:29:45 but um it wasn't our main focus of work in terms of being there at the event would you encourage others to become involved in any physical confrontation no
00:29:52 no with the people that were Uh, no. We took we took the safety of our group incredibly incredibly seriously. Like say we had a group of 10 20 movement for justice people on on a a demonstration that wasn't organized by us. So we don't
00:30:07 that wasn't organized by us. So we don't have um any control or say over how that demonstration goes. We were always incredibly security conscious and aware and and wanting to keep people safe both from police and fascist violence. Um,
00:30:24 from police and fascist violence. Um, you know, I that that that was very much in MFJ what we did. We we kept people safe. We we felt a deep sense of responsibility for anyone we brought on a demonstration. Um, can I display please MPS0111?
00:30:46 It's behind tab B12. Sir, this is in relation to an what's deemed as a an anti-IRRA demo in Whiteall. And we can see that you attended this march. The date is the 29th of March 1998.
00:30:56 1998. That's the date of the report.
00:31:07 That's the date of the report. Um, and the second paragraph says that a number of skirmishes developed through the course of events primarily led by Karen Doyle and Alex Oarde. Although nobody was either arrested or appeared badly hurt by the scuffles. In terms of
00:31:18 badly hurt by the scuffles. In terms of the description of skirmishes led by you and Alex and the scuffles, what can you tell us about that? First of all, it wasn't an antiirra demonstration. It was an anti-fascist demonstration. The the um I mean, what
00:31:34 demonstration. The the um I mean, what does it even mean? What does skirmishes mean? I I have to think if there was
00:31:46 mean? I I have to think if there was ever a time where I was on a march and I was te I was throwing punches at the police or telling people to pick up rocks and throw them. I have to think that that would actually be reported in these things that they're reporting on. The fact that they're not that the
00:31:57 The fact that they're not that the absolute most that would have happened is that kind of maybe push and pull with
00:32:08 is that kind of maybe push and pull with the police. But I have to think if there was anything more serious than that, it would have been reported on. But there wasn't. There wasn't. There wasn't. I mean, skirmishes is a military term, I
00:32:22 mean, skirmishes is a military term, I think. Like, although nobody was either arrested or appeared badly hurt by the scuffles. I mean, it's just it's just ridiculous. Uh, can we display please MPS0748392
00:32:32 at page four
00:32:40 here we can see at paragraph three
00:32:47 this is in relation to um it's a report that we looked at earlier we can have the first page up it's it's the Steven Lawrence campaign associated ated
00:32:59 Lawrence campaign associated ated organization. So this is something uh sorry it's the second page something that was drafted on the 10th of September 1998. So it's a branch note an SDS document that is summarizing those
00:33:10 SDS document that is summarizing those associations around the Steven Lawrence campaign.
00:33:12 campaign. And page four then paragraph three it notes that the MFA are not afraid to instigate disorder should it be politically advantageous. Um they hope to be offered the lead
00:33:24 Um they hope to be offered the lead should any positive or direct action be contemplated and should this occur they will call for community action against the five suspects. This is something
00:33:39 the five suspects. This is something that we've um looked at in some detail during the course of this trench and it's when the five suspects um thought to be the killers of uh who were the killers of um Steven Lawrence
00:33:50 were the killers of um Steven Lawrence attended at the Steven Lawrence inquiry at Hannibal House uh that day. Were you there on that day when the five suspects attended? See, originally I
00:34:06 suspects attended? See, originally I thought I was, but actually I was there in the morning for I was in the queue when we were trying to get in, but I don't think I was there when they came out. I've looked at all the footage. I remember I was working full-time through that period, and there was changes to
00:34:19 that period, and there was changes to the dates on which they would appear, and I think I had booked leave for a previous date, and I couldn't get leave for the rest of that day. I because I don't think I was there when they came out, but I was definitely in the queue.
00:34:32 in the morning. Okay.
00:34:34 Okay. And
00:34:39 And were you part of that demonstration to try and get uh what we've heard about the overflow room? The overflow room, the monitors in that over room. I was part of that.
00:34:52 It goes on to say that the MFJ are not likely to seek to start disorder on the march. rather they are hoping to build a mood of militancy that will attract other extremist groups.
00:35:11 That sense of militancy we've looked at in some detail particularly in relation to groups like Yre youth youth against racism in Europe. What was your sense of militancy if indeed you were looking to build a mood of militancy? First off, I want to say something about
00:35:24 First off, I want to say something about the word militancy because I I heard the whole exchange with the the wiry um evidence about the word um and we used it a lot in the early days of movement for justice and it really did come from
00:35:41 for justice and it really did come from the the kind of trade union movements of the the 80s um the minor strike that kind of sense of you had the um trade unionists who um didn't want to invoke industrial action or or demonstrations or do pickets and then
00:35:54 demonstrations or do pickets and then you had the militant trade unionists who were so it came we used it a lot. I
00:36:05 were so it came we used it a lot. I actually remember movement for justice having a discussion about the word in this period and we stopped using it simply because that historical connection to the word was lost and and so when we said the word in flyers it
00:36:16 so when we said the word in flyers it people didn't understand what it meant anymore. So we actually stopped using that word um at a certain point because I mean it's like it's like for example the the question of of um um black and
00:36:28 the the question of of um um black and Asian or the black community in the in the 70s and 80s um the black community included Asian people and there was people Asian communities resisting racism who identified as black and who
00:36:43 racism who identified as black and who had black community campaign groups. By the time I got involved, young Asian people didn't identify as black, so we we stopped using it. Well, words shift and change. Sorry. Sorry. I know that's
00:36:58 and change. Sorry. Sorry. I know that's [laughter] that's um a little aside, but um
00:37:03 um your question was, I mean, first hoping to build a mood of militancy that will attract other extremist groups. What is it talking about? [laughter] I have no idea what it's talking about. So that wasn't something that was on the agenda in your meetings that the march
00:37:20 agenda in your meetings that the march to call for the five killers to be uh to be prosecuted or jailed. That wasn't something that was discussed amongst you as a group and we're going to build a mood of militancy. No, we were concerned with building a mass movement. We didn't believe that
00:37:35 mass movement. We didn't believe that change can come only from court hearings and public inquiries. We believed it took a molecular mass protest of people organizing on all fronts to win justice, to win change and and history proves
00:37:49 to win change and and history proves that truth. And and that was what we were trying to build. Can I take you to MPS00002582,
00:38:01 please? Behind tab B18. It's a report dated the 1st of November 1999.
00:38:11 Um and apart from the financial problems, paragraph three please.
00:38:26 Um the final factor for MFJ is that they appear to be out of favor with just about every other group. The fallout from the Lawrence inquiry appears to be continuing from MFJ in that they are considered to be highly disruptive
00:38:40 considered to be highly disruptive troublemakers. A clear example of this is that MFJ were not invited to take part in the Downing Street demonstration against organized by the United Family
00:38:51 against organized by the United Family and Friends group on the 30th of October 1999.
00:38:53 1999. Do you recall um that uh group initiative the the United Family and Friends group?
00:39:04 United Family and Friends group? I don't I know the United Family and Friends group. I don't recall that specific demonstration. Do do you recall that you were excluded from joining that because there is a sense that you were troublemakers?
00:39:23 sense that you were troublemakers? No, I I don't recall that at all. Um, was there any sense that following the Steven Lawrence uh inquiry and particularly the day after the uh Lawrence's sorry the suspects had attended, there was a sense that MFJ weren't welcome at the inquiry because of the the disorder that had occurred on
00:39:36 of the the disorder that had occurred on the day that the five suspects attended. No, I I don't recall that. I don't recall ever being told don't come to the inquiry or anything like that. There is
00:39:47 inquiry or anything like that. There is no sense of that amongst the amongst the groups.
00:39:56 Can I ask you about MPS4973?
00:40:14 This is part of a a a document. It doesn't have a a particular date. It's not signed by anybody, but it's understood, the inquiry understands it
00:40:26 understood, the inquiry understands it to be an SDS uh management document that was uh originally dated 11th of January 2001 or at least that's the metadata that we have on it. And it's looking at the requirement levels of uh intelligence from different groups.
00:40:38 uh intelligence from different groups. And if we can turn to page two please,
00:40:50 we can see that there is reference to movement for justice and the requirement level there. Whilst it said this group is not overtly violent, they have the resources and organizational ability to cause public public order problems. Um they partake in street protest and will seek to influence the community into
00:41:01 seek to influence the community into supporting their agenda. And this is done by using local issues as a basis of protest whilst maintain
00:51:53 There's a a a a record of an interview that I'd like to refer you to. It's MPS0721
00:51:56 934.
00:52:05 And this is in relation to what Robert Lambert, uh, Detective Inspector Robert Lambert said in his interview in 2013.
00:52:21 Uh, page seven, please.
00:52:47 um in in this on this page you said that you were optimistic that there would be and this is looking at his perspective from when he was an operative in the SDS. So we heard about his evidence in Tanch 2 and uh this is uh him giving an
00:53:02 Tanch 2 and uh this is uh him giving an example of how he um saw uh the context of things when he was a an SDS operative. He says this, you were optimistic that there could be a flash point to trigger the kind of the level of public disorder which you as a
00:53:17 of public disorder which you as a revolutionary wanted. You believed that this was the prelude to the revolution that you you know you lived and breathed and so that was the world that the SDS field office officers on the far left lived in.
00:53:32 and page 10, please.
00:53:54 I think it may be internal page 10. Can I just have a look on page 11, please?
00:54:00 [clears throat]
00:54:09 Um,
00:54:22 sorry sir. It's the point where um it appears that across the left there were
00:54:32 appears that across the left there were direct taskings to Lawrence and he says that the left-wing groups the SDS were targeting would want to be inside the Steven Lawrence campaign. They would want to be in the meeting. They would want a speaker on the platform.
00:54:47 Don't know if that's there on ah yes it is on sorry page 11 internal page 10. It's the bit that has been redacted and um gisted at item six. [clears throat]
00:55:11 Um would you share those sentiments that as a an activist and the left wing
00:55:17 left wing that you'd want this trigger? something like a a a justice campaign to almost like a bandwagon or a platform on which to be able to uh uh
00:55:34 to be able to uh uh incite more of a movement to bring about a revolution. You'd want to be there. You'd have you you you'd have this platform to be able to speak and put forward your bigger picture view. Do does anything
00:55:50 bigger picture view. Do does anything resonate with what Bob Lambert says here from his experience as a left-wing activist?
00:55:52 activist? I
00:55:54 I it [laughter] sorry it laughable. It's it's laughable the notion that we were um thinking there was going to be
00:56:06 um thinking there was going to be something that led to the re revolution. I mean if if just just think for a minute about all the reports that we've actually seen from Hagen during that
00:56:20 actually seen from Hagen during that period and you know setting aside this madness of the SDS about their their delusions of of what they were saying there is like there's evidence of us writing a list of questions for the
00:56:35 writing a list of questions for the chief superintendent of Brixham police, meeting with police officers, going to Lambbeath Police Community Consultative Group meeting, um having a stall, open meetings, public meetings, like and
00:56:47 meetings, public meetings, like and there's no evidence of of violence, arrests, public dis like there's just
00:57:03 arrests, public dis like there's just none. And so they put sprinkle these um like high f like justifications on top and it really it upsets me because movement [clears throat] for justice like we would never want to take over a
00:57:19 like we would never want to take over a family campaign. That was completely the the polar opposite of why movement for justice was set up. We were set up as the not a family campaign group. You know, we didn't we didn't win for Sha. His attackers walked free. We set up something that that was about something different that was about building a
00:57:33 different that was about building a movement that could win justice. That could see that could see Steven's murderers jailed. That could see Roland Adams murderers more than one jailed.
00:57:48 Adams murderers more than one jailed. that could see the victims of racism and and racist attacks being treated as human beings and not criminals. And that's what we wanted. That's what
00:57:59 And that's what we wanted. That's what we wanted. It really upsets me that the family campaigns have been shown this evidence that's in suggesting that this is what Movement for Justice's aims were. It really upsets me that they
00:58:13 were. It really upsets me that they would think that that's our aim. It wasn't. It wasn't. This is the SDS delusion and racism and how they viewed the black community and movement for justice is a convenient scapegoat.
00:58:28 justice is a convenient scapegoat. That's all we are. And what the police have done when they've apologized to those black families and they've said, "Oh, we're really sorry, but you were just collateral damage. It was this violent group over here. That is shameful gaslighting of those families
00:58:45 shameful gaslighting of those families because it is not true. Those apologies mean nothing because it is not true. None of this is true about Movement for Justice's intentions and our politics and what we did. And in fact, the reports back that up.
00:58:58 Miss Doyle.
00:59:04 [sighs] Mr. Doyle, I would like to ask you specifically about the Steven Lawrence campaign.
00:59:13 campaign. Would you like a moment or are you happy to carry on? Go ahead.
00:59:15 Go ahead. Um, there is obviously uh a a a view that I need to put to you for your evidence for you to be able to uh
00:59:26 your evidence for you to be able to uh uh uh tell us what your experience and what your recollection is. So um it it may also be emotional because of the the the nature of the evidence that I'm
00:59:40 the nature of the evidence that I'm asking you to give. Um at paragraph 80.12.4
00:59:47 the reports uh on the MFJ's decision to become involved in the Lawrence inquiry are set out in a number of of documents. Um
00:59:58 Um I don't need to go to them just at the moment. um you do make reference to MPS01113.
01:00:06 Um but in essence what that says is that it was after attending the inquiry daily for a couple of weeks that the MFJ had a discussion about getting more actively involved with the Steven Lawrence
01:00:20 involved with the Steven Lawrence campaign. Um is that your recollection? Do you recall that you had been attending the inquiry and then it was a matter that was taken back to the group as to whether you were going to support?
01:00:31 as to whether you were going to support? We did. We did. I do remember us having discussions. I mean, public inquiries were not um something that at that point that Movement for Justice kind of
01:00:44 that Movement for Justice kind of really thought about much or or had much perspective on. But I remember we went to it obviously, you know, it it just to get this isn't a bandwagon jumping. It was in our area. It was in
01:00:58 jumping. It was in our area. It was in Elephant and Castle and it was concerned with racist attacks and police racism. So we went along to it. Um, and the thing that changed our mind that that this was something worth being involved in, um, was actually there was a group
01:01:09 in, um, was actually there was a group of black women who from just community members. They weren't connected to the family or they they weren't connected to anyone, just community members mainly from Lambbeath and Suk um, who went
01:01:26 from Lambbeath and Suk um, who went every single day in the public gallery and they organized themselves. They weren't members of any group. They organized themselves as a group and we they were really determined that that
01:01:40 they were really determined that that public inquiry was genuinely public and had maximum involvement. And it it was them that convinced us that this was something we we should really spend time on. And the time we wanted to spend on it was to maximize public involvement.
01:01:51 it was to maximize public involvement. So we would fly her, we our our office in Brixham on a Saturday, we would tell people what was happening in the inquiry. We would invite them to come along. Um we would tell people about what significant events were. We
01:02:05 what significant events were. We supported those women. They organized um petitions in the petitions from the public gallery um to the chair of the inquiry about issues when the when the when the chair would try to shut things down or when someone was saying they
01:02:18 down or when someone was saying they wouldn't appear. Um and and it and it was just really important. Their role [clears throat] was really important and and we wanted to um support that and maximize I think public inquiries are most
01:02:33 I think public inquiries are most effective when they're genuinely public and when there is max when the public gallery is full. The public gallery should be full here, you know. Um but that that's when public inquiries are most effective and we wanted to make sure that that's what happened.
01:02:46 sure that that's what happened. Um there's uh an SDS document MPS0728
01:02:54 625
01:03:04 which is HN81's file the SDS file um page eight please
01:03:14 this is in particular uh regard to his withdrawal strategy. It's very difficult to read, but at at paragraph four.
01:03:26 Oh yeah. Do you recall reading this? I I do because the the question from the inquiry [clears throat] about it was actually wrong um in terms of what it presented. the same [clears throat] on the face of the document. It it it
01:03:41 on the face of the document. It it it appears that the SDS management were of the understanding that he progressed
01:03:54 the understanding that he progressed through the admittedly thin ranks of the MFJ to a position of prominence in the group along with Alexard and Karen Doyle. And now that Lewis had had effectively taken a back seat,
01:04:05 effectively taken a back seat, um these three effectively run the show. It appears to be saying that Alexard, Karen Doyle, and uh David Hagen were running the MFJ show. Is that is that right?
01:04:19 right? Absolute nonsense. Like it's just really I mean so there's so many places in Hagen's reporting. I mean he calls it bigging up. I mean there there's like the bigging up of his role through all
01:04:32 the bigging up of his role through all of this like is really quite incredible. There is no way that you could say that Hagen was effectively running the show. It's ridiculous. He it goes on to say
01:04:43 It's ridiculous. He it goes on to say that WT Windmill Tilta is quite candid in admitting that he was largely responsible for the for their adoption of the Steven Lawrence case and the rest as they say is history.
01:04:55 as they say is history. It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. Did he have any say any in terms of the direction that MFJ were taking in relation to the Steven Lawrence?
01:05:07 in relation to the Steven Lawrence? He would have been part of those discussions that we had about the nature of public inquiries, the problems with them, the the the experience that we had meeting those women who were organizing
01:05:18 meeting those women who were organizing in the public gallery. um he would have been part of those discussions and I'm sure he had an opinion but my understanding was pretty much everyone was on board that we should do more.
01:05:30 was on board that we should do more. How influential was David Hagen in the group?
01:05:35 group? He he wasn't he was he was a member. He was a member. So he didn't have any specific role within the MFJ at any point. No, he didn't have any specific role. I don't actually recall him ever like most
01:05:49 don't actually recall him ever like most of us like me and Alex and everyone like we would make public statements on marches, we'd chant leads, we'd intervene in the police. I don't remember him doing any of that. He was just kind of someone who reliably would turn up to stuff and not everything
01:06:02 turn up to stuff and not everything either. He was not doing the day in day out doornocking in in Brixton that we were doing, but he would come to events and to meetings. Can I display please MPS0721026?
01:06:19 It's behind tab B325 of the MFJ bundle. So just for the record, I didn't say that that previous document was behind tab B34 of Miss Doyle's bundle.
01:06:44 Uh this is a record of a meeting between HN81 Mark Allison QC and Allison Morgan on the 22nd of October 2013. At page nine please.
01:06:57 There is a comment um that he was there at the Lawrence inquiry to and in quotes stop the likes of the MFJ taking over.
01:07:18 What do you say about uh the suggestion that you there was any intention to take over the Lawrence inquiry or the Lawrence campaign? It's rubbish. I mean, I they they knew that what they were doing was wrong. They knew that if if the Lawrenes knew that there was an undercover police
01:07:29 that there was an undercover police officer spying on them that they would be not happy. And this is just them trying to justify it. This is just them trying to um
01:07:41 trying to um um make the make the indefensible defensible. That's it. He says at the top of that extract that I was selected for a reason. Sorry if we can have that um
01:07:53 Sorry if we can have that um bit enlarged. Uh the suggestion is that he was not an average police officer in his beliefs. He was selected because I have strong attitudes against racism.
01:08:09 have strong attitudes against racism. Bob Lambert expressed similar outrage. I was very effective because I was not a racist. I went to deal I went in to deal with public disorder. I was my own moral compass.
01:08:21 compass. My management were making decisions, but I was not in there to smear the Lawrenes. I'm very supportive of their position.
01:08:26 position. Um,
01:08:31 Um, the fact that he says he was not a racist.
01:08:33 racist. Do you accept that somebody can 100% not be a racist or believe they are not
01:08:46 not be a racist or believe they are not a racist yet still write reports in the way that you have seen them written which seem to have either an unconscious uh uh bias or um are written in a certain way because it's part of the
01:09:02 certain way because it's part of the policing culture and and the information that is being sought. I believe I believe that he believes he's not a racist. Um, and I I I assume he genuinely believes that and it's
01:09:15 he genuinely believes that and it's clearly something that's quite um like it it comes up in in multiple places
01:09:26 it it comes up in in multiple places like he feels quite defensive of that. I I I think when you actually look at the volume of reports and you look at the way the black community was talked about, the way movement for justice was talked about, the focus on race constantly
01:09:38 constantly um you know that there was a place where um he said in one of his reports, we were going to meet with the um GLA p the police authority. We had a meeting with them over something and Alex and Tony
01:09:54 them over something and Alex and Tony were going and we were also wanting to send someone else, a black woman, um, who was prominent in Movement for Justice at that time. And he said, um, they want to do that. So there's a black face.
01:10:09 face. That's racist. That's racist. First of all, Alex was black. like it we you wouldn't use a term like blackface um in that way if there wasn't some
01:10:24 um in that way if there wasn't some racism going on. His reports throughout really do drip with prejudice. Now he may believe he's not a racist in the sense of he would stand against a violent racist attack or he he'd be against someone using the n-word, but that isn't the sole sum of racism.
01:10:38 that isn't the sole sum of racism. Racism is pervasive and it's often unconscious or people think it's unconscious. [laughter] It's it's it's pervasive. It runs through his entire reporting. So, no, I he is he is racist.
01:10:59 reporting. So, no, I he is he is racist. Um he may not think he is, but he is. um without knowing anything about his his background, experiences, other uh uh work he's been involved with, can you confidently still say that you
01:11:14 can you confidently still say that you you believe he is racist or that it is a uh an approach that is taken by him um that is
01:11:16 that is denotes racist beliefs
01:11:27 denotes racist beliefs um or is set in a racist way without his his his conscious uh recognition of that.
01:11:29 that. Let me give I'll give you I'm going to give you an example from Lambeath. Um so the the manager who um um was overseeing
01:11:43 the the manager who um um was overseeing the Lambert Community Alarm Service um a white woman um would say things to um black workers, black women workers, oh you know, oh you should come and clean my house. Um she would go and touch
01:11:56 my house. Um she would go and touch their hair. She would give um breaks to the white workers that she didn't give to the black workers. Um, Alex organized a campaign to defend two black women workers in that section who were being
01:12:07 workers in that section who were being victimized by this racist manager. And he called her a racist. He said, you know, she's a racist. Um, and she said, no, I can't be racist. I'm married to a
01:12:19 no, I can't be racist. I'm married to a black man. She was married to a Nigerian man. Um, this racism, people don't understand racism. Sorry. Was that the manager? That was the manager, a white manager was married to
01:12:28 to a white manager married to a black a black man and and but she said that denote she's not racist. She said that's not what she's that that's why she's not racist. Men marry women. They can still be sexist and
01:12:39 women. They can still be sexist and misogynist and violent. The the the social proximity and your own perception of yourself um does not make racism. Racism is expressed in um a million
01:12:52 Racism is expressed in um a million different kind of social interactions and prejudices. Someone who considers themsself not racist can still be racist.
01:13:11 Um thank you. Page 10 on this document, please.
01:13:26 Um it says that the MFJ may take advantage of the pressures on the couple and this is relating to [clears throat] uh uh Mr. and Mrs. uh uh Lawrence. Sorry, I don't have the paragraph number in front of me.
01:13:42 Thank you.
01:13:50 Um, and further down the page, it says that there were wolves circling the Lawrenes.
01:13:58 Can I just say one more thing on that? I haven't obviously had time to look at all the discovery for all the periods where they were spying on like the hunt sabs or reclaim the streets or anything
01:14:11 sabs or reclaim the streets or anything like that, but I'm guessing there wasn't the same, oh, this is a majority white meeting and there's all these white people doing like they weren't focusing on race in those. They focused on race in in in our reporting because they of their racism because of their racism.
01:14:23 their racism because of their racism. Sorry, I just wanted to say that it was it was it was entirely reporting on the race of people in the meetings, saying that a march was not going to be violent
01:14:35 that a march was not going to be violent because there was no black people on it. Like, it's it's throughout all of the reports. And I'm guessing there wasn't the same focus on of race um when it came to spying on some of the other groups.
01:14:48 groups. In relation to that, is there any sense that the reporting on race could have
01:15:02 that the reporting on race could have been because the issues were very uh uh focused on race and and racism within the police. It was about um um black people in particular being stopped and searched and a disproportionate level of that that so so race was very much a part of the campaigning uh focus uh
01:15:17 part of the campaigning uh focus uh whereas it wasn't in the say the the hunt subs
01:15:19 hunt subs good good question um and it isn't just the mention of race it's the mention of race in the context of violence and public disorder and
01:15:31 violence and public disorder and agitating ing parents and ulterior motives and um um you know the the the the
01:15:42 the presenting kind of this this false dichotomy between the the good respectable black person who is not violent and these very terrible um violent black people who are
01:15:55 violent black people who are demonstrating all of that is racism. All of that is racism. Um, going back to page 10 here, the the suggestion that the MFA may take
01:16:09 suggestion that the MFA may take advantage of the pressure on the couple. Obviously, we know that there was immense pressure on Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence uh surrounding the uh Steven Lawrence campaign and the inquiry and the suggestion at the very end of this
01:16:22 the suggestion at the very end of this extract that there were wolves circling the Lawren's. this uh presentation of groups, politically activist groups that
01:16:37 groups, politically activist groups that were wanting to in some in some way take advantage of of what they were going through or the campaign itself, the inquiry itself. What do you say about that? Was that ever a part of MFJ's uh modus operandi?
01:16:50 uh modus operandi? No, absolutely not. And you know why why I wrote this incredibly long witness statement is to put the truth of what we were doing during that period in the public domain because I'm absolutely insensed that this lie is what is being
01:17:07 insensed that this lie is what is being told. Um so no it is absolutely not true and it it's it's um it's just it's just wrong. the the police what they needed. There was no wolves. C the the wolves that were
01:17:18 wolves. C the the wolves that were circling the Lawrence were the police who were doing everything they could to try and um defend themselves, make themselves look better instead of just doing what the
01:17:30 better instead of just doing what the Lawrenes were asking them to do and and investigating fairly and and prosecuting the people who murdered their son.
01:17:43 the people who murdered their son. That's that's that's it. all this other stuff is is just the the SDS delusion. We've heard some evidence about the fact that um
01:17:59 that um it was understood Imran Khan uh Casey the lawyer for the the Lawrenes was protecting them from some of the political intervention that there may have been. And similarly, Sheresh Grover from the monitoring group was very much
01:18:15 from the monitoring group was very much part of uh the the family group and and the gobetween with the Steven Lawrence support groups. Can you explain from a a a movement for justice perspective
01:18:26 justice perspective what was the setup in terms of the the Steven Lawrence uh uh Steven Lawrence family, the Steven Lawrence campaign and the the support groups? How where did MFJ come into that
01:18:41 MFJ come into that organization? We we weren't a part of the Lawrence family campaign or the support group. I actually didn't know that there was two separate groups. I don't recall ever knowing that. Um we attended the public inquiry.
01:18:58 attended the public inquiry. We were organizing around that time. Um we called the National Civil Rights March. Like we went to the public meetings. So there was public meetings in the inquiry that one of those groups either the support group or the Lawrence
01:19:10 either the support group or the Lawrence family campaign um would have called. We went to them. And the thing that that really gets me about those reports about those meetings was, you know, most of Hagen's reporting on movement for
01:19:23 Hagen's reporting on movement for justice activities and we were doing a lot of activities before the Steven Lawrence inquiry during and after um [clears throat] you know it's one page one or two paragraphs no violence peaceful
01:19:36 peaceful haven't got any money. Um the reporting on the Lawrence inquiry those those public meetings were pages like they were two full long pages and they reported on everything that everyone
01:19:51 reported on everything that everyone said for example that there was one that reported on everything that everyone said and and movement for justice
01:20:00 said and and movement for justice clearly didn't even speak in the meeting cuz all it says was oh and movement for justice was thinking this you know cuz we were discussing afterwards like it was not this was not about movement for justice. This this was this was a
01:20:15 for justice. This this was this was a decision to spy on the Lawrence inquiry and the Lawrence family
01:20:24 at at paragraph 127 of his witness statement. I don't need to bring it up. He said HN81 says that he was not chosen or asked by MFJ to befriend the Lawrence family. Uh is that right? Is No one no
01:20:35 family. Uh is that right? Is No one no one in Movement for Justice befriended the Lawrence family. It It just wasn't a thing. I I don't recall us actually having much interaction with the
01:20:50 having much interaction with the Lawrence family. We mainly would have spoken with Sesh Grover at public meetings. That's it. Was there anybody that spoke to Mr. or
01:21:01 Was there anybody that spoke to Mr. or Mrs. Lawrence? Um, at paragraph 80.12.19 of your statement, you say that Alex Olaward and Lewis may have talked directly to the Lewises. Do Lawren's rather.
01:21:12 rather. Is is that something you actually recall or
01:21:16 or No, that's just me guessing. That's just me guessing. If any of us if anyone in Movement for Justice was going to speak
01:21:28 Movement for Justice was going to speak to them, it would have been one of those two. But like I genuinely can't recall ever seeing or having an interaction with the Lawren's during during that period. Um, was there a distinction between
01:21:42 Um, was there a distinction between Alex Olawad and Lewis having interaction with maybe the family group, Shereesh Grover and the more general interaction that MFJ would have with the wider
01:21:53 that MFJ would have with the wider group? Is there a distinction between the two or not really? Not really. Not really. I mean, we would have, you know, we had we had demands. So we had, you know, we were calling, I think I put a list um from the civil
01:22:04 think I put a list um from the civil rights march. We were calling for Paul Condon to be sacked. We were calling for um Steven's murderers to be jailed. we were calling a much wider demands about police brutality and and other racist
01:22:19 police brutality and and other racist attacks um and immigrant rights and and we were the only ones during that inquiry who were making the point about so at that time the the Labor government were introducing a new white paper um faster, firmer, fairer um which was like
01:22:35 faster, firmer, fairer um which was like their first big attack on asylum seekers and we were making the point that there's this there is a history of the Labor Party um on the one hand introducing things like the race relations act, things that are um
01:22:46 relations act, things that are um offering something to settled black communities, things like the Steven Lawrence inquiry, and on the other hand attacking newer um black and Asian immigrants. So, we were making wider
01:22:59 immigrants. So, we were making wider political points. We wanted to kind of expose what was happening and we were campaigning against that immigration um and asylum act as well. So, but that that was what we were doing.
01:23:10 that was what we were doing. It's said in paragraph 122 of HN81
01:23:22 It's said in paragraph 122 of HN81 statement that MFJ were barely tolerated by the Lawrence campaign. Can you shed any light on that? Was that your understanding? No. No. I mean I mean I can't we went to the I don't recall any interactions with the Lawrenes genuinely.
01:23:46 Um this I know you weren't there on the day your evidence is that you were uh on the on the day that the five suspects attended the inquiry. You were there in
01:23:57 attended the inquiry. You were there in the morning to demonstrate and have the monitor put into the side room. You weren't there when they left the building.
01:23:58 building. Um,
01:24:00 Um, was there a [clears throat] a a a premeditated plan amongst the movement for justice group that some disorder or physical demonstration would be
01:24:16 physical demonstration would be conducted at the time that the the five left the inquiry only that we wanted to ensure there was a demonstration. We wanted to ensure that those murderers felt the anger of the community. um at them because they
01:24:28 the community. um at them because they hadn't they hadn't experienced that up until that point. So yeah, we wanted a demonstration
01:24:47 demonstration and that that was it planned to be viciferous and uh a physical showing of anger as opposed to what we understood the Lawren's wanted was to turn their backs on the five. Yeah. No, we want we wanted anger. We we wanted them to feel the anger that we
01:24:58 wanted them to feel the anger that we wanted them to feel it. Absolutely. We wanted them to feel it. And in that sense, although there were only a a relatively small number of MFJ uh people attending at the on that day,
01:25:18 uh people attending at the on that day, uh did they whip up some of the anger uh the disorder on that occasion? No, I I mean it was like what 500 people. Movement for Justice were like five people. I don't think we had that many people there when the when the murderers were leaving. Um and and the crowd was actually spread out in a over
01:25:38 crowd was actually spread out in a over a really wide area. So there was people all down um like the entrance ramp and then people in the road. There was no whipping up to be done. These were people who had seen they'd actually seen most of them had seen on the news the
01:25:51 most of them had seen on the news the the murderer's entry into the into the inquiry where you know they were like like this come on they were really aggressive and and and they made the
01:26:03 aggressive and and and they made the decision to come down it it didn't need um whipping up. People were angry. So, is is there any sense that the MFJ mobilized a direct attack on the the five suspects? No, absolutely not.
01:26:17 Um, can I have on display please MPS01145?
01:26:24 This is behind tab B46 of the MFJ bundle.
01:26:42 in the comment that I think is towards the end of the page. So again, this is in relation to the uh uh Steven Lawrence campaign. It's a a a report from the 23rd of June 1998.
01:26:54 23rd of June 1998. [sighs]
01:27:05 Um
01:27:23 thank you. Um this is to do with the um MFJ demands that the issue of uh that the legal system deal with the five and the issue of vigilantism
01:27:36 against the five was raised and due to the ongoing inquiry it was felt prudent to allow the state an opportunity to deal with the concerns of the community before MFJ decided upon their own course of action. What what was your
01:27:51 of action. What what was your reaction when reading this about a sense of vigilantism? I laughed. It's just so ridiculous like we were some militaristic operation that the notion that we would think of
01:28:02 the notion that we would think of vigilanteism as a good thing. Like it it's just so ridiculous. I I can only laugh at it because
01:28:20 It it's just insane. It's just rubbish. So, are you saying then that what's put in this report is uh
01:28:26 uh pure pure fantast purely fantastical? There there's no truth in it or is it just the way that he's expressed it which perhaps is not as you would have
01:28:41 which perhaps is not as you would have expressed it. Is there is there a konel of truth in that there was some uh desire to see the five uh punished for what they had done? Of of course we wanted the five punished for what they had done. That was the
01:28:56 for what they had done. That was the entire point of of everything. and and like the notion that
01:29:05 every so often you would get someone coming along to movement for justice public meetings or or our weekly meetings even who would say stupid stuff like you know oh we should go and attack them that was not movement for justice policy we would talk against that we
01:29:18 policy we would talk against that we would tell people no we're not going to be doing that so you know I don't know if if that's what but that's not group policy that's just the things that people say when they're angry and upset.
01:29:33 people say when they're angry and upset. It wasn't group policy and it we it just crazy. So, so, so your concern here would be that something that somebody
01:29:47 would be that something that somebody raises, whether that's seriously or in justest at the meeting, might be repo reported in in a in a report that is read by uh the SDS customers that actually is presented almost as if that's a an MFJ position, that that's
01:29:59 that's a an MFJ position, that that's what the group wants. Yeah. is that to to what extent does that concern you that that was going to uh other customers of the SDS and lying on a file in relation to you?
01:30:10 a file in relation to you? Oh, it makes me furious. It makes me furious that this view of movement for justice is what was sitting on file and
01:30:22 justice is what was sitting on file and may have informed interactions with the police or or other groups or whatever. It makes me furious cuz it's just so like of course there were people who were angry and frustrated and they would have raised you know attacking someone or or whatever it was. Movement for
01:30:34 or or whatever it was. Movement for justice wasn't about that. We were the opposite of that. We were about building a movement and and that meant public actions and trying to get justice, trying to get murderers jailed, trying
01:30:48 trying to get murderers jailed, trying to get police jailed for for for racism. like
01:30:50 like that was what our concern was. We were actually against vigilanteism. We didn't agree with people going off and just being violent to someone that that we we would argue against that if anyone
01:31:07 would argue against that if anyone brought that to us and it makes me absur infuriate. I can never say that word. It's just absolutely outrageous that this is the is the record of movement for justice. And I it's just it's upsetting. It's up it's really upsetting
01:31:21 upsetting. It's up it's really upsetting in in the same way. Then there's another reference which we don't need to display but it's MPS01149
01:31:28 uh the uh report saying that MFJ are quite happy to let the five enter the hearing and be questioned but see their exit as the perfect chance to meet out some summary justice. Would your would
01:31:42 some summary justice. Would your would your response be similar in the way that it was vigilant? He had no what does that even meat out summary justice? They viewed demonstrations and anger legitimate anger at horrific failings
01:31:58 legitimate anger at horrific failings and racism of the police and of racists legitimate anger. They viewed that as the problem. That that that was that was what they viewed as public disorder. Anger. That was their view of public
01:32:10 Anger. That was their view of public disorder. And no one should be angry at the police. And but of course people are going to be angry at the police like it's just it oh it's sorry it just it's just it's awful.
01:32:31 it's sorry it just it's just it's awful. Do do you recall whether following that day there was a request by the uh Steven Lawrence family that MFJ shouldn't attend the following day. I don't recall that at all. I I genuinely don't recall that at all. I don't recall ever being told we shouldn't attend.
01:32:44 shouldn't attend. Okay. I I'm not saying it didn't. Maybe it was said to someone else, but I don't recall it.
01:32:50 Um, can I display please MPS01398?
01:33:02 This is behind tab B87.
01:33:16 It's right, isn't it? The MFJ through Alex Oarde did give a presentation to the Steven Lawrence inquiry or the McFersonen inquiry during the second stage of that inquiry.
01:33:27 stage of that inquiry. That's correct. Well, there was three people who who delivered the Yeah. Um and um
01:33:33 and um what it says here is Oladi will use the opportunity to rubbish the inquiry and call for the formation of a civil rights movement and Sha Alan a victim of racial violence
01:33:47 Sha Alan a victim of racial violence will take the microphone from AAD in an attempt to advertise his case. Um what was the purpose? What was movement for
01:33:58 was the purpose? What was movement for justice's purpose in giving evidence to the inquiry as you recall it? We to I mean I' I've supplied the the written statement that was um given
01:34:09 written statement that was um given essentially they they read that written statement. Um it was reporting on the the Shaalam campaign all of our work um
01:34:21 the Shaalam campaign all of our work um to get justice and it was it w it was it sorry I can't actually remember the exact content but it would have been reporting on all of those um campaigns what we've been involved in and calling for a movement I just the the formation of a civil rights movement there was
01:34:39 of a civil rights movement there was already a civil rights movement a civil rights movement is not an organization it's a movement and movement for justice was all about we called ourselves movement for justice because we wanted to build a civil rights movement that's in all of our materials from the earliest days. So the
01:34:53 materials from the earliest days. So the the way they phrase things it's like the SDS can only think in terms of organizations and individuals but that's not a true picture of what was actually
01:35:06 not a true picture of what was actually happening and and what we were trying to build. A and the source comment here says that this will be a direct challenge to the inquiry's decision not to hear stories from other victims. Yeah. Do do you recall that was there was there a sense that the inquiry
01:35:17 was there a sense that the inquiry needed to hear from from other victims of
01:35:19 of We did. We supported a whole number of families to meet with the inquiry. We believed that the inquiry should hear from victims of police um brutality and racism and some of the campaigns for
01:35:33 racism and some of the campaigns for justice. Um that's why you know we made sure SHA was there with us speaking about his case. Um so absolutely we we were calling on the inquiry to to broaden its remit.
01:35:46 broaden its remit. And it's right is it that there was a demonstration before and after that presentation. Um and any attempt to prevent Aardi or Sharaan from speaking may be aggressively challenged. Was that ever part of the the thinking of the setup for the day?
01:35:59 for the day? Why would we be prevented from speaking? We were invited to speak the inquiry like we were asked to like we were asked to speak with Movement for Justice
01:36:14 to speak with Movement for Justice engaged with the inquiry throughout the whole process. Um and we had something important to say about racist attacks and and police injustice. So why would we be stopped from speaking? In terms of feeding into the the content of those
01:36:26 feeding into the the content of those submissions, did you other members of MFJ have input and and was any did that include David Hagen?
01:36:37 include David Hagen? We we would have talked we definitely would have talked about it. Um and and the the contents of it essentially was formed over the whole course of our intervention in the public inquiry. And can I just say as well again the way he
01:36:50 can I just say as well again the way he presents Shaalam is again an example of his prejudice. a victim of racial violence will take microphone from Olad in an attempt to advertise his case. It's minimizing
01:37:01 It's minimizing it's minimizing what the black and Asian community were going through, what victims of racial violence and police brutality were going through. It's another example.
01:37:12 I'd like to ask you about um the knowledge that uh Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence had uh split or were separating during the time of the the Steven
01:37:26 during the time of the the Steven Lawrence inquiry. Can I have on screen please MPS0721 973
01:37:32 page three.
01:37:44 And this is in relation to the suggestion that MFJ planned to exploit the knowledge that Dorene and Neville Lawrence were splitting up.
01:37:52 Um, do you recall when it was that you learned that they uh were separated? Honestly, no. I I remember I was aware of it, but I can't remember if I was aware of it um when it came out in
01:38:06 aware of it um when it came out in public or if I was aware of it earlier. I I honestly can't remember. Um, it's the the final paragraph on this page that Dorian and Ne Neville splitting up. Um, I can't really
01:38:19 splitting up. Um, I can't really remember where it came from. I think Dwayne told the MFJ. I think I reported on it. Sorry, I should have introduced this document
01:38:34 should have introduced this document that it's um [clears throat] uh uh uh if we go to the first page of the document,
01:38:41 sorry, second, it's again the meeting with um HN81 on the 9th of October 2013.
01:38:58 Um, and this is a a a note of his uh of that meeting.
01:39:03 Um, so sorry, back to page three.
01:39:13 And what HN81 says in relation to that is not to put that into the system seems ridiculous to me. It was before RIPER. I believe it should be intelligence. It is relevant. The MFJ were going to try and
01:39:27 relevant. The MFJ were going to try and exploit it. The MFJ believed they might be able to target Neville after they'd split up. These are my thoughts. It was relevant. Under Ripper, it may not
01:39:40 relevant. Under Ripper, it may not happen now as it would be sanitized. All intelligence is good. Um,
01:39:43 Um, do you have any recollection of anybody speaking about that within the MFJ group or within the wider Steven Lawrence campaign group? No. And it's actually
01:40:01 campaign group? No. And it's actually it's outrageous to suggest we would try and use it or exploit it. And I and there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that we did or would do that. Um,
01:40:11 Um, is it right though to say that you were aware of that as a group around that time?
01:40:16 time? Yeah, I well I I was I I I think I remember being aware of it. I I definitely remember being aware of it, but like I say, I can't recall where I got it from. Um,
01:40:27 got it from. Um, and was that was that at the time of the Steven Lawrence inquiry around 9798? No, it would have been it would have been later I think.
01:40:44 been later I think. Okay. So, it might have been I was aware of it when it became public. I honestly I The reason I don't know and I don't remember is because it wouldn't have been a thing for us. If it was a thing for us, I'm pretty sure I would remember. If we were planning to use it or exploit it, I'm pretty sure I would remember. I
01:40:55 pretty sure I would remember. I genuinely can't remember when I found out this information or how. you're familiar with the the document that has been shown um to Surish Grover um and it's MPS 00001212.
01:41:08 um and it's MPS 00001212. I don't think I need to put it on display again, but it does suggest that it was Sheresh Grover who after a meeting
01:41:19 meeting disclosed that information to MFJ, whoever that was in MFJ. Um and and when that was put to Sheresh Grover last week, he denied that he
01:41:31 Grover last week, he denied that he relayed that information. Um in your witness statement, you said that um perhaps it was Dwayne Brooks that told
01:41:45 perhaps it was Dwayne Brooks that told us, but having read now the the reports, it may be that it was Shesh Grover. Can can you assist us at all with how that may have come about? So when I was writing this, I I hadn't spoken to anyone else. I didn't know anyone else's evidence and all I had was Hagen's reports and he had said something odd
01:42:01 reports and he had said something odd which surprised me which he said that he was he thought he was mates with Dwayne Brookke which was completely news to me like I I I don't know where that came from [clears throat] and I I didn't know if there was any truth in it. I I know
01:42:13 if there was any truth in it. I I know now that there's no truth in it but you know same thing with seeing that it was Suresh who said it you know so I put it in my witness statement. And I said, "Oh, well that's what the report says." But honestly, I can't remember that
01:42:32 But honestly, I can't remember that meeting and I have no reason to doubt Suresh Grover when he says it wasn't him. You know, I have no idea. I genuinely have no idea. The the suggestion that MFJ were going to try
01:42:46 suggestion that MFJ were going to try and exploit it. Um is is there any truth in that um there was a sense Neville Lawrence was more involved with the political campaign groups in that he would attend some of the political meetings and would speak at uh meetings as opposed to Dorene Lawrence who in her
01:42:59 as opposed to Dorene Lawrence who in her on her evidence was that well she wasn't as engaged because obviously she she was um either less inclined or she was at home uh uh with the with the children.
01:43:16 home uh uh with the with the children. Was there a sense that Neville Lawrence might be able to be more open to a a more
01:43:18 more uh
01:43:25 militant approach to the bigger issue of racism in the police? No, I don't remember any discussions about that at all. Um, do you think that those might have been discussions that were taking place within the MFJ at the time?
01:43:45 within the MFJ at the time? No, I I think I would I I would know it if they were. I don't I genu I don't recall any discussions about that. [cough]
01:43:52 Uh the suggestion that MFJ
01:43:59 would perhaps take seek to take over a family campaign. I think you've addressed that already, haven't you? in that two very very different types of uh uh approaches.
01:44:18 MPS 0721 973 please
01:44:33 0721 973
01:44:43 Oh, sorry. Moving on to page three, please. Oh, we're on it. I'm sorry, sir. Um
01:44:48 Um the the reference in this on this page about um MFJ's involvement in the Lawrence inquiry was really good news and that it would be valuable intelligence with regards to public order issues. That was HN81's
01:45:08 order issues. That was HN81's perspective as to why that it was it was uh good that MFJ got involved with the the Lawrence campaign. Top paragraph. It's in the top paragraph. a second line from the from the bottom of the first paragraph.
01:45:25 So he said, "I didn't suggest it, but I didn't dissuade dissuade them from getting involved. It was really good news. They were going to do it. We're going to it. It was going to be valuable intelligence with regards to public
01:45:38 intelligence with regards to public order issues. Our involvement pretty much took up all of our time. What do you say about that? What were the public order issues in relation to
01:45:51 the public order issues in relation to MFJ's involvement in the Steven Lawrence inquiry?
01:45:59 inquiry? None. None. I I don't know what they were. The the the day the murderers showed up um was it didn't take intelligence to know that the community would want to be there
01:46:10 the community would want to be there like and and that people would be angry. Um
01:46:14 Um the the the demonstration, it was a demonstration in the queue to try and get the inquiry to open up an overflow room to to get to make sure the inquiry was public. It was a
01:46:27 inquiry was public. It was a demonstration. Um the public order issue was caused when the police CS sprayed the the Nation of Islam. Um, there was no there was no other incidents that I can think of in the the whole course of the Lawrence inquiry
01:46:39 whole course of the Lawrence inquiry that that could fit this description. We engaged with the inquiry. We attended we attended public meetings organized by the Lawrence family campaign. That
01:46:59 the Lawrence family campaign. That that's it. That's that's it. and and the the sense that your involvement in the Steven Lawrence campaign pretty much took up all of our time. Is it right
01:47:12 took up all of our time. Is it right that at that time a lot of focus was put onto the inquiry and that a lot of the uh efforts of MFJ were on the inquiry during that period? Honestly, no. I mean, I I've given a timeline of all our activities during
01:47:23 timeline of all our activities during that period. We maintained um all of our other campaigning through that period and some of the things we've already talked about like the CS spray campaign there was overlap like we were still doing all of our other work and most of
01:47:34 doing all of our other work and most of us were also working so we didn't attend the inquiry every day. We would get information from the women in the public gallery about what was happening. We'd discuss it. We'd encourage members of
01:47:46 discuss it. We'd encourage members of the public to go. But I I don't I don't think it's true that it took up all of our time. Like I remember us doing other stuff during that period as well. I mean we were campaigning against the firmer faster affair the immigration
01:47:57 firmer faster affair the immigration act. Like do you know what I mean? Like it it was we were doing lots of things. Um the the comment about bigging himself up to the management in relation to uh his influence over going to the Steven
01:48:15 his influence over going to the Steven Lawrence uh camp campaign in the inquiry is here just at the bottom uh just for the record. That's definitely true.
01:48:25 Finally, on the Steven Lawrence um inquiry matter, I want to refer to HN81's meeting with Richard Walton. [clears throat] Um that is uh referenced in MPS0728
01:48:39 625, please.
01:48:58 If you scroll down, um, sorry, next page.
01:49:09 Uh, this is HN81's file, page 12 to 13, please.
01:49:29 Uh, this details a meeting that HN81 had with Bob Lambert, who is or Robert Lambert, the DI at the time, and who authors this uh note, this file note, SDS file note on the 18th of the
01:49:43 note, SDS file note on the 18th of the 8th, 98. 8. Um, and he says that he on Friday the 14th of August, I had a meeting with Windmill Tilter HN81 and Richard Walton. Uh, Richard Walton was currently working with the Steven
01:49:54 currently working with the Steven Lawrence review team that was working on um the commissioner's submissions to the Lawrence inquiry at the end of phase one. Um
01:50:12 and HN81 was asked to meet with him and give his perspective on um the the the the um inquiry and give some indication,
01:50:23 um inquiry and give some indication, some insight into what was happening with the the community and the inquiry, the campaign. And it's noted that it was a fascinating and valuable exchange of information
01:50:36 and valuable exchange of information concerning an issue which according to RW continues to dominate the commissioner's agenda on a daily basis. And RW thanked WT for his invaluable reporting on the subject in recent
01:50:48 reporting on the subject in recent months and in-depth discussion enabled him to increase his understanding of the Lawrence's relationship with the various campaigning groups like MFJ.
01:51:01 campaigning groups like MFJ. This, he said, would be of great value as he continued to prepare a draft submission to the inquiry on behalf of
01:51:12 submission to the inquiry on behalf of the commissioner and MFJ's future plans were also discussed at some length. Um, RW explained a lot of the behind-the-scenes politics involving the home office and it emerged that there is great sensitivity around the Lawrence issue with both the home secretary and the prime minister extremely concerned
01:51:24 the prime minister extremely concerned that the Metropolitan Police could end up with its credibility in the eyes of London's black community uh completely undermined
01:51:39 uh completely undermined and then uh RW explained the three main areas that his team is addressing. Um just on that point then this relationship between the Lawren's and the campaigning groups like the MFJ um relatively little to report on on
01:51:57 um relatively little to report on on your account and your recollection of what was happening at that time. Yeah.
01:51:59 Yeah. Would you Is that fair? Yeah, that's fair. Um and in terms of the draft submissions to the inquiry on behalf of the commissioner, is this at a time when you were gathering your own submissions as
01:52:14 were gathering your own submissions as well for the second phase of the inquiry that was to take place? Yeah, it would have been
01:52:19 have been beginning of that that that later on. Um,
01:52:29 in terms of bullet point two, just below
01:52:44 this second stage of the public inquiry, RW explained that the commissioner plans to stage a series of public forums in the months ahead at which he will attend personally and set out the Met's position. One proposed venue was Lambbeath Town Hall and WT was advised
01:53:01 Lambbeath Town Hall and WT was advised to advise W at RW of the vulnerability that such a meeting would have would have to disruption from MFJ and local black youth. Was there likely to be disruption if the commissioner attended
01:53:15 disruption if the commissioner attended at Lambeath Town Hall in relation to the public inquiry? No. And it it's [sighs]
01:53:25 movement for justice never once disrupted the public inquiry. We saw it as a really valuable thing. It was for the it was the first time that there was a public spotlight
01:53:43 a public spotlight across the nation on the issue of police racism and and failures to to um deal with the kind of pervasive racist attacks that were happening. Why would we want to disrupt that? It was absolutely the opposite of what we
01:53:56 was absolutely the opposite of what we wanted to do. We wanted to maximize that inquiry. We wanted it to be broader. We wanted it to we had no intention to disrupt it. And again, it's this uh, you know, vulnerability to disruption from MFJ and local black youth. It's this demonization of the black community and
01:54:15 demonization of the black community and you and black youth that runs throughout all this reporting that does not bear any
01:54:16 any relationship to the actual things that were happening on the ground even on the basis of Hagen's reporting even if you
01:54:27 basis of Hagen's reporting even if you take just on the basis of his reporting it does not bear that out Lambbeath Town Hall was that where MFJ had been having the meetings with the Lambeath
01:54:39 Lambeath police community consultative group. Yeah, they were largely at the town hall.
01:54:49 hall. So the police consultative uh committee that was based at Lambeath Town Hall and so there had been many occasions where you had been there with Chief Superintendent Foy uh
01:54:53 uh discussing issues about policing. Yeah. Yeah. So had the commissioner attended uh to talk about the second stage of the public inquiry. What was the risk of public disorder?
01:55:09 the risk of public disorder? We would have attended the meeting. There was no risk of public disorder. We would have attended the meeting and we would have intervened in the meeting. We may have had a demonstration outside but primarily we would have intervened
01:55:22 but primarily we would have intervened in the meeting. And and finally then in terms of the last paragraph there as regards the second stage itself there continued to be daily discussions with RW's office as to best tactics to adopt and the question of the commissioner's
01:55:38 and the question of the commissioner's resignation and that of his assistant in John Johnson is regularly addressed in terms of the second stage of the uh public inquiry. That's of course when you yourselves were going to be putting in your submission and we've established Yeah.
01:55:49 Yeah. that.
01:55:52 that. Thank you. So that may be a convenient moment for the afternoon break. Certainly. Is um 10 minutes long enough? 10 10 minutes.
02:07:07 Thank you, sir. Um, just before we leave the Steven Lawrence campaign, please. Um, I suggested to you that where there was a a separation between Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence, um, it was Neville Lawrence that had attended
02:07:23 was Neville Lawrence that had attended more of the the meetings uh, with with the different support groups. I do accept it's right that Neville Lawrence wasn't political. It's just simply that
02:07:34 wasn't political. It's just simply that he was attending the meetings more than Dorene was attending the meetings because of different commitments. I'm I'm fine accepting that.
02:07:48 I'm I'm fine accepting that. And um given that you don't recall any uh contact specifically between those in the movement for justice and the Lawrence family? Uh, do you agree that it would be inaccurate to describe HN81 as a spy in the Lawrence family camp?
02:08:09 In the Lawrence family camp? Yes. But I think he was a spy on the Lawrence inquiry.
02:08:11 inquiry. Uh what about the Lawrence
02:08:22 Uh what about the Lawrence uh uh uh Steven Lawrence campaign if that is a different body had a different nature? Um well like I say I can't actually I wasn't or didn't remember that there was different the support group in the
02:08:33 different the support group in the campaign so I can't help with that at that.
02:08:34 that. Thank you. Um one question please on subversion. Um, you were asked by the inquiry
02:08:53 Um, you were asked by the inquiry whether you considered yourself or or or the MFJ to be subversive in nature. Uh, what is your response to that? No, I I
02:08:58 No, I I sorry, I don't have the definition in front of me right now. if it [clears throat] helps you address it at paragraph 95 of your witness statement.
02:09:09 statement. But in terms of uh an overthrow of the Oh yeah.
02:09:17 Okay. So government or state democratic processes.
02:09:27 processes. Movement for justice stood in local elections. Movement for justice attended police consultative group meetings that the police regularly attended. We met with chief police inspectors. We um we campaigned in elections. We lobbied MPs and met with MPs. We marched. We
02:09:50 and met with MPs. We marched. We protested. All of these things are deeply democratic endeavors. They are not subversive. So I absolutely reject thection.
02:09:54 thection. Um, I'd like to then turn to the withdrawal of HN81 from his deployment. Um,
02:10:08 from his deployment. Um, you recall in your witness statement a a time when you arranged to meet David Hagen by uh or in Victoria. Do you recall that time? And and you think it was probably around the summer of 2001.
02:10:26 was probably around the summer of 2001. And he confided in you, didn't he? um as you recall about his depression and disillusionment. You've already described him as somebody who came across as quite a depressive character. Um what impact did that have on you at the time?
02:10:42 the time? I was really worried. I was worried for him. He he sounded genuinely despondent and was talking about going back to a
02:10:54 and was talking about going back to a situation that I knew was really bad for him. Um, and I felt I felt bad for him and [clears throat] I shared with him some of my own struggles with mental health um, as a as a way of trying to encourage him to I don't know um, keep going, keep going. I was genuinely worried about him.
02:11:10 worried about him. Can we display please MPS 0000 6208?
02:11:12 6208? It's behind tab B27 of Karen Doyle's W uh, bundle. It's paragraph three
02:11:23 It's paragraph three in particular. So this is a particular intelligence report on you.
02:11:47 And we can see that um the bit that is redacted for privacy is a reference to your own mental health. Yeah.
02:11:51 Yeah. And and it says this is a common trait of revolutionaries as they wait for the revolution to happen. When this occurs, she disappears off for a while, but otherwise appears hugely confident, highly intelligent, and of a bubbly personality.
02:12:06 personality. What do you say about your mental health struggles being included within a report, a very personal report on on you and the comment about uh it being a common trait of revolutionaries? Oh,
02:12:21 of revolutionaries? Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. It's so it's so dismissive, you know, and the fact that he's now using mental health as an excuse not to peer appear before this inquiry is um ironic. But it, you know, I went back and forth about that
02:12:35 know, I went back and forth about that privacy redaction because on on the one hand, you know, I'm not um I'm not ashamed of the fact that I've had mental
02:12:46 ashamed of the fact that I've had mental health struggles and it's something I've talked about a lot. Um but I I the way he put it was so sarcastic and demeaning. I I kind of kept the privacy notice of of that in um I I just found it demeaning. It's horrible. When we
02:12:58 it demeaning. It's horrible. When we look at the whole report, it's a very personal report, isn't it? About your current living situation about um your your parents and the fact that um what their uh job was what happened during
02:13:18 their uh job was what happened during your childhood, you know, moving from uh place to place with their work. Um we can take that down now, please.
02:13:31 The impact of that on you. um just on a very personal level, what what what
02:13:33 what sense did you have of that or how did how did you react to that when you were reading these reports? [clears throat] It just felt deeply intrusive and completely
02:13:51 completely unnecessary even on what SDS said their purpose was. Like what what relevance did it have? It didn't have any relevance on anything. It was just deeply intrusive and demeaning and you know that it's kind of just sitting there somewhere and who knows what is
02:14:03 there somewhere and who knows what is seeing all this information about me. It's horrible. It's genuinely horrible. In respect of um HN81's departure,
02:14:14 um HN81's departure, uh you say in your witness statement that he his story was that he was going back to Heraffordshire. Is that right? That was my understanding. Yeah.
02:14:29 Do you recall him leaving suddenly without explanation um as described by Alex Olard last week or did you uh see that as quite a gradual
02:14:39 gradual removal of himself from MFJ? There was a disengage. I mean the the stuff that happened in Burmany was kind
02:14:53 stuff that happened in Burmany was kind of a um I think a flash point and I mean we we definitely would have questioned his politics after that. We we would have kind of um it was very anti what MFJ stood for everything that he did.
02:15:05 MFJ stood for everything that he did. You're talking about the anti-fascist demonstration that that was a point of quite extreme political difference that we would have had to have out with him. Um, from that moment he was coming to less and I
02:15:18 moment he was coming to less and I remember I I'd be calling him to try and get him to come to something and he wouldn't come and he just sounded really depressed and then he said he was going and that's why you know I said oh meet me you know come and I I'll see you and
02:15:32 me you know come and I I'll see you and we met in in Victoria. My experience was after that I I think he was gone after that. Did you meet him uh after that at all even on a a brief occasion?
02:15:46 all even on a a brief occasion? No. No, I did. I thought about him over the years. I I wondered what happened to
02:15:57 the years. I I wondered what happened to him. I was generally worried that I mean he had the demeanor of someone who was potentially suicidal to be honest and and that that's worrying. Can we display please MPS0748738
02:16:13 at page 58? This is HN 81's account to this inquiry and it addresses his withdrawal.
02:16:21 So paragraph 186 please. So his exfiltration um could you just read through that please? And does that accord with what you understood was happening at that time when he was leaving MFJ?
02:16:37 time when he was leaving MFJ? Yeah, I I don't recall quite I don't recall Canada or Ireland ever being in the picture. Um but yeah, it's it's it's it's probably an accurate account of that.
02:16:49 So you recall him going back to Heraford?
02:16:51 Heraford? Yeah, that that was my understanding of what he was he was doing. I can't remember if there was some family reason why he was going back. My general impression it was, you know, he was just very very depressed and disillusioned.
02:17:12 I'd like to ask you just about the recommendation for commendation uh in in the final note that we saw earlier, MPS 0728625
02:17:16 at page three.
02:17:30 So this is a a recommendation commendation of HN81 dated the 2nd of October 2001. uh and you can see that it sets out essentially uh the the main
02:17:42 essentially uh the the main [clears throat] highlights of his deployment in the first paragraph and then it goes on to bullet point three particular key successes from his operation
02:17:54 operation or three broad areas. Um the first highlights the provision of high-grade preemptive intelligence on a range of local extreme left-wing groups.
02:18:14 local extreme left-wing groups. Um was he reported well was he engaged as far as you recall with any other groups other than MFJ? He used to like he he I guess I mean he was he his leanings was more anarchist
02:18:26 was he his leanings was more anarchist than than most other people in Movement for Justice. So he would report on things and like take our flyers to the anarchist book fair which we wouldn't go to or um he he told us about a reclaim
02:18:48 to or um he he told us about a reclaim the street demonstration once. So he may have still maintained some contact with those meal those groups. Um but I I I wasn't aware of him being an active member in any other group. Um it talks about uh those groups looking to ferment unrest and violence over issues such as the Steven Lawrence inquiry and he provided burough
02:19:00 inquiry and he provided burough commanders particularly at Brixham and Tottenham with daily indications of the political temperature and guidance on the relative merits of courses of police action.
02:19:10 action. Um you've commented on that to some degree in your evidence today. Um and as I understand your evidence is that that
02:19:28 I understand your evidence is that that your group at least MFJ was not looking to ferment unrest and violence over issues such as the Steven Lawrence inquiry.
02:19:30 inquiry. No. And and what a complete waste of money. um daily indications of the political temperature and guidance on the relative merits of courses of police action.
02:19:40 action. What an utter waste of resources. There there were countless people telling the police what they were doing wrong with the black community. There were
02:19:51 the black community. There were countless people saying what was happening. All of they could have got our flyers at our stalls. And I I think I in fact I remember I remember
02:20:04 I in fact I remember I remember uniformed officers picking up our flyers from the floor if they found one at our street store. Like it it's just it's just an offensive waste of money. Um bullet point three please.
02:20:32 Um, he was thus debriefed thoroughly by the Steven Lawrence review team, which is what we were just talking about in relation to feeding information to Richard Walton. Um,
02:20:39 Um, has it considered how the MPS might regain the confidence of the black community and how it might assess the potential for disorder by sections of that community and what might be the consequences of sustained political pressure on the MPS from hard left and
02:20:51 pressure on the MPS from hard left and other groups? not well disposed to the police. Again, is that something where you would say there's plenty of people
02:21:02 you would say there's plenty of people available that would be able to give a a an informed insight into this area? It we it was in all our flyers, all our flyers, all our publicity. It was in the monthly meetings of the police consultative group. This was absolutely
02:21:19 consultative group. This was absolutely nothing more than reputation management for the police and yeah
02:21:30 um you've suggested that some of the reports seem quite dehumanizing. Um, what impact overall has your um, reading of of of this had on you
02:21:47 reading of of of this had on you now that you've been able to see all of the disclosure that's been provided to you?
02:21:53 you? Well, it's horrible. I spent essentially I got all the disclosure. Um, sorry.
02:22:07 Don't worry. Take your time and um have a glass of water or something in Yeah.
02:22:12 Yeah. There's absolutely no no need for you to jump to an answer and if you'd like me to pause now, I'll rise from a moment to gladly do so. No, it's okay. got all the disclosure I think over
02:22:23 got all the disclosure I think over Christmas um and was given this deadline to respond to hundreds and hundreds of pages of documents. I spent four months two months the first two months I decided I couldn't I couldn't
02:22:35 decided I couldn't I couldn't intensively read these documents until I had gone through all of the you know tucked away documents that I possessed um and devised a timeline for all of our work over that period because I I you
02:22:47 work over that period because I I you know you can't remember those things. So I went through b I gathered all the documents I could find, organized them into date order, did a timeline, and then I I I comprehensively read through these documents essentially every
02:23:02 these documents essentially every every weekend for like 4 months. That's what I was doing alongside a really intense um emotionally and physically demanding full-time job. And
02:23:13 And I remember when um I first became aware of Hagen
02:23:22 of Hagen and it was around the time of Hern and Ellison and all these news reports were coming out about this terrible violent subversive group that was the real
02:23:36 subversive group that was the real intended target, you know, that was a danger to everyone. I remember just being like it have I forgotten something like is there is there something about what
02:23:47 there is there something about what movement for justice did that could possibly be described in those terms? Now I knew we were the group, right? And I kne it was really common for us to be
02:23:58 I kne it was really common for us to be called a violent group because of by any means necessary. It's why we explained it so often in in the materials you've seen. we had to explain it because it's it's commonly misunderstood.
02:24:13 it's commonly misunderstood. Um, so I knew it was us and you know now realizing that during Hearn and Ellison and seeing some of the reports and that um that family campaigns were being met with by the police and were being told
02:24:24 with by the police and were being told that um the real target was this violent subversive group and maybe shown some of these documents and then reading these documents
02:24:36 documents that bear no no relation to the reality of our politics and what
02:24:50 to the reality of our politics and what we did and what we achieved during that period. And I'm very very proud of the work we did during that period. It is horrible. It is genuinely [clears throat] horrible. And you know that that label violence a subversive is
02:25:06 that that label violence a subversive is is on me now. Is on me now. And it bears no relation to who I am and the work that I've done and the commitment that I have made in my life to stand against injustice
02:25:21 injustice and against racism. So yeah, it it's absolutely it was exhausting and draining and then being given these
02:25:32 draining and then being given these deadlines by the inquiry, you know, I'm trying to write this true history of [clears throat] what happened. Um, it was horrible. It was genuinely
02:25:46 Um, it was horrible. It was genuinely genuinely overwhelming and horrible and exhausting. Absolutely exhausting. Um, yeah. [clears throat]
02:25:54 Do you think now looking back in hindsight that actually HN81's deployment into MFJ [snorts] did have an impact on MFJ's work whether negative or positive? Do you think he
02:26:06 negative or positive? Do you think he influenced what you were able to achieve or not achieve? No. No, not at all. He was absolutely peripheral to what we did. our our
02:26:17 peripheral to what we did. our our mission remained the same from movement for justice's inception to when I left in 2022. It may have at different times we focused on different things and that was the nature of of like the people who
02:26:29 was the nature of of like the people who came around movement for justice. people would bring things to us and we would campaign on it. And you know after this period oh the the period where we had to fight after Alex was sacked and we
02:26:48 fight after Alex was sacked and we fought so hard incredibly intense period for everyone and for Alex personally um to try and get him reinstated. And we won we won the we won the tribunal um we won massive change in Lambeath Council. We we instituted a public inquiry in
02:27:01 We we instituted a public inquiry in Lambeath Council that actually we used to insist happened in the evening so that people could actually attend and we we c we made sure the community catered it. So we always had a packed public gallery that found that Lambeath was
02:27:14 gallery that found that Lambeath was institutionally racist. Like we achieved so much but it was it was exhausting that period. Um after that we did um do a lot of focus on um uh we we were doing a lot more on on immigration, detention,
02:27:29 a lot more on on immigration, detention, deportation, asylum seekers. Um but that was just and that reflected the increased increased anti-immigrant um sentiment. I mean the Labor Party
02:27:40 sentiment. I mean the Labor Party detention mushroomed from like virtually no one detention center to to 17 detention centers at one point. um people detained who are not criminals um
02:27:53 people detained who are not criminals um just for being undocumented. Um so we we we did we did focus on that a lot more than police brutality and racist attacks. Um but I think that whole movement during the whole period of the '9s. It was successful at pushing back the fascists, at pushing back the
02:28:09 the fascists, at pushing back the racists, at making it known that that um the police are institutionally racist, making people afraid to be racist. No, people didn't want to be racist. We're now seeing a reversal of that and and and you know, we're seeing more of the
02:28:22 and you know, we're seeing more of the the kind of things we witnessed in the '9s happening, racially motivated rapes and attacks and brutality and constant constant stream of just racist rhetoric
02:28:40 constant stream of just racist rhetoric um from the the the far right um who are mainstream. Um, sorry that I've gone off on one. Um, [laughter] um,
02:28:48 um, that's okay. I had asked you whether HN81 had had made an impact um, back in the day. Um, is [laughter] is there any I don't have any further questions for you, but if is there anything else that you want to say uh, to the inquiry to
02:29:01 you want to say uh, to the inquiry to make sure that we've got your evidence in as full form as possible.
02:29:08 I want to make the point again that I made earlier that the whole premise of um the the reason for the SDS um
02:29:25 of um the the reason for the SDS um spying on black family justice campaigns and family justice campaigns um is the movement for justice is this violent subversive organization that that is just absolutely untrue and that the
02:29:37 just absolutely untrue and that the apologies given to those families are not worth the paper they are written on because they maintain that lie. And even
02:29:52 because they maintain that lie. And even Hagen's own reporting shows that they're not true. And I hope that's what I've shown.
02:30:02 Thank you, sir. As far as I'm aware, there are no rule 10s, but uh if you wish to rise, we can I I better rise for a moment or two to make sure of that. Um and there may be some re-examination.
02:57:20 Yes, Miss Doyle. Uh, just one point of clarification. It's in relation to the Steven Lawrence campaign. I I asked you whether given that you don't recall any
02:57:33 whether given that you don't recall any specific contact between members of the MFJ and Lawrence family members uh whether you agreed that it would be inaccurate to describe HN81 as a spy in the Lawrence family camp
02:57:54 the Lawrence family camp and you you accepted that. Then we had a short discussion about uh whether there was a distinction between the Lawrence family camp, the Lawrence h Steven Lawrence campaign and obviously we've heard some evidence about the Steven Lawrence support groups and and the
02:58:07 Lawrence support groups and and the Steven Lawrence inquiry itself and you weren't aware or understood there was any real distinction between those and uh I I suggest to you that you were unable to help us with that point. Then
02:58:27 unable to help us with that point. Then can I just clarify uh is it right that given that description which is a description used by Ellison Mhm.
02:58:32 Mhm. that uh you are not able to to to to assist the inquiry in terms of that particular description of HN81. Would that be fair to say? No, I think it's the way it's worded I because it's worded in the Lawrence
02:58:44 because it's worded in the Lawrence family camp. I I don't think he wasn't in the Lawrence family campaign, but he was absolutely reporting on the activities of the Lawrence family
02:58:58 activities of the Lawrence family campaign campaign group campaign. I I'm not sure. I don't quite know the difference between those things, but he was reporting extensively on the
02:59:09 was reporting extensively on the Lawrence inquiry and the meetings that um I I again I can't remember but I assume Neville Lawrence was at Suresh Grover was at where they were talking about the inquiry and and tactics and you know and he was feeding into the
02:59:21 you know and he was feeding into the actual Lawrence inquiry. So, it's kind
02:59:40 actual Lawrence inquiry. So, it's kind it's it's I would say I would say he was he was absolutely a spy in the Lawrence inquiry and on the Lawrence family and the campaign around Steven Lawrence. That's patently true because he was advising people who were writing [laughter] you writing the the the the police submission for the Lawrence report. Um it is your it's just the wording of that Lawrence family camp like Dave Hagen wasn't close
02:59:58 family camp like Dave Hagen wasn't close like he wasn't in meetings in their home or anything like that. So I think it's that distinction if that makes sense. So it's your evidence that he wasn't physically there present in the home or wasn't in amongst the family members itself. That's that's a fair reflection
03:00:18 itself. That's that's a fair reflection of of your evidence. But in terms of the wider campaign, the the uh support groups, the inquiry, he was reporting on that sort of extensively reporting on it. I think that uh clarifies the point for us. Thank you very much.
03:00:39 us. Thank you very much. So, uh there may be some re-examination. I only have one matter ready to uh deal with you
03:00:41 with you boys. Um,
03:00:46 boys. Um, you came this morning and you told me that the note that you had with you contained a number of questions or or matters that you wanted to ensure that sir John knew about uh and that you would tick them off as you went through
03:01:00 would tick them off as you went through them during the course of the day and uh I just want to ask you to take the opportunity now to go through and if there is anything left on the table that
03:01:13 there is anything left on the table that you want to give him after an exhausting day please do so now. Uh and um then it'll be over. Thank you. Um
03:01:19 just looking at my list.
03:01:31 I think most of it was was covered. Two things um which weren't covered. Um, one was and which I think expose um kind of the the racism and the the focus of SDS, which was the um campaign, the the
03:01:45 which was the um campaign, the the demonstration that we held, the march we held in North London, which brought together the black community and the Turkish Kurdish community in a united march against um disappearances in Turkey. It was the Sasher Day mothers
03:02:01 Turkey. It was the Sasher Day mothers who were fighting around disappearances in Turkey and deaths in police custody and racist attacks. And we had a very vibrant, very integrated, the first ever of that kind of march that brought those
03:02:13 of that kind of march that brought those two communities together. And we brought those two communities together in the wake of um what happened with the Broomfield 3, I think, as well. Um and it was such an important demonstration like we considered that demonstration such a success for our
03:02:26 demonstration such a success for our politics. It was it was absolutely what we were trying to do. We were trying to bring people together in a united struggle. Um that we shouldn't be fighting each other. Um that we should
03:02:39 fighting each other. Um that we should be fighting together for a better life, a better future, for justice. And Hagen reports on that as as being a fatal error, a a terrible mistake um for the
03:02:55 error, a a terrible mistake um for the movement for justice because, you know, it it wasn't militant enough for the young black people on the march and we would drive the young black people who
03:03:09 would drive the young black people who we were trying to recruit away. It to me that just shows the fundamental um
03:03:12 um the fundamental error at the heart of all of this when it comes to these reports on what we
03:03:26 it comes to these reports on what we are. that that was an incredible moment, an an incredible historic moment for that community and everyone on that march recognized that. Our aim was never
03:03:40 march recognized that. Our aim was never um militancy or violence for the sake of militancy or violence or to create some sort of terror for re revolution or whatever all that nonsense. It was building a a united integrated civil rights movement fighting on on multiple fronts. And again, when I say
03:03:51 multiple fronts. And again, when I say fighting, I don't mean fisty cuffs with the police. I mean fighting for justice, fighting for equality, fighting for freedom, fight fight fighting for human rights, um civil rights and and I I
03:04:03 rights, um civil rights and and I I think that incident and that report really gets it that struck me as the most emblematic of the kind of SDS
03:04:14 most emblematic of the kind of SDS delusion. He wanted us to be obsessed with violence. He wanted us to be obsessed with encouraging black youth to be violent, right? He wanted us to be
03:04:25 be violent, right? He wanted us to be that. But we weren't that. We weren't that. And and that's that's the the fundamental STS delusion. And I I just I I want to kind of I just I I actually want to end with
03:04:39 I just I I actually want to end with with kind of a quote. I want to say this quote because this is um from Martin Luther King's letter from a Birmingham jail which we read we studied. I mean,
03:04:50 jail which we read we studied. I mean, we we studied this stuff in Movement for Justice and we studied the civil rights movement and this letter from a Birmingham jail we came across um we did a lot of because it kind of um it
03:05:02 a lot of because it kind of um it summarized our our perspective. Um and and it was a letter because he Martin Luther King he was engaged in a um he was filling the jails of Birmingham um resisting Jim Crow and um there was and
03:05:16 resisting Jim Crow and um there was and they were facing down water cannons and and police violence and they were marching into those police lines um with incredible courage and a group of of
03:05:27 incredible courage and a group of of so-called white progressives in in the the Christian movement um wrote a letter to him saying that he he was being too he was being too too violent, he was being too too
03:05:38 violent, he was being too too aggressive, that this was too much. These were people who were supposedly on the side of anti-racism. And he wrote this letter from a Birmingham. He wrote it while he was in jail. Um and I'm just going to read one little bit of it.
03:05:50 going to read one little bit of it. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already
03:06:02 the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out into the open where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the
03:06:15 opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light. Injustice must be exposed with all the tension its exposure creates to the light of human conscience and the air of
03:06:26 light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured. That's it in a nutshell. That's movement for justice in a nutshell. That's what we were doing. We did not shy away from
03:06:41 we were doing. We did not shy away from speaking truth to power. We did not shy away from the legitimate anger of victims of racism and police violence. It was not our job to calm people down
03:06:54 It was not our job to calm people down and tell people to to be quiet and wait for some later date or some faraway court hearing or the possibility of a public inquiry in the future. That was
03:07:05 public inquiry in the future. That was not our job. Our job was to expose the truth of the racism that people were suffering and bring it to the air of national opinion. That's why we engaged in the Lawrence inquiry that because
03:07:18 in the Lawrence inquiry that because that's what the Lawrence Inquiry did. It brought that truth to the surface. I wish it had brought more truth to the surface. I wish it had investigated what happened in the in in to Roland Adams in in investigation. Why was only one
03:07:32 in investigation. Why was only one person convicted of that murder? I wish it had investigated what the it every Steven Lawrence was not an aberration. It was not a one-off. It was a pattern. And that's why the Steven Lawrence
03:07:45 And that's why the Steven Lawrence inquiry attracted so much of the public interest. Why those women went every single day that that's what it was and that's what movement for justice was concerned to do. We had absolutely no
03:07:58 concerned to do. We had absolutely no intention of disrupt. Why would we? It's core to our belief that these things should be exposed. And on that point, I want to, you know, I I got emotional today and I'm, you know, this is a this
03:08:11 today and I'm, you know, this is a this has been a difficult process for me and I'm but I'm very glad to have done it and I want this inquiry to tell the truth and I want to just pay homage to the women who were um abused by these
03:08:29 the women who were um abused by these spy cops by who were abused and tricked and just treated un unimaginable cruelty and their determined determination to to expose the truth. Their determination to not give up, to keep pushing at it. And it's those
03:08:40 keep pushing at it. And it's those people who keep pushing at it, who keep exposing, who keep speaking the truth in the face of people telling them that they're troublemakers, that they're, you know, um, causing a problem, that
03:08:54 know, um, causing a problem, that they're too violent. It those people are the ones who who make history and and make change. and and I really want to pay homage to all of those people and
03:09:05 pay homage to all of those people and and and what has been achieved and I'm immensely proud of everything that we did and in in Movement for Justice and everything that we achieved and the people that we helped along the way, the people that we empowered along the way
03:09:20 people that we empowered along the way to know that they weren't alone and that their anger was justified. It's absolutely justified. And um yeah, I'm going to end there.
03:09:34 That concludes my question. Thank you. [clears throat] Thank you for the immense um trouble that you took to draft your witness statement which [clears throat] was
03:09:46 statement which [clears throat] was immensely detailed and careful. Um I won't offer you a pointless apology for the difficulty of the task. the inquiry legal team um do
03:09:59 the task. the inquiry legal team um do their best to make it possible for lay people such as yourself to respond constructively to questions which I ultimately have to try and answer and um
03:10:11 ultimately have to try and answer and um therefore to offer you an apology for it would be I think both pointless and demeaning and I refrain from doing that but I hope you understand their uh approach and why they've adopted it and
03:10:24 approach and why they've adopted it and I'm very very grateful to you for taking the immense trouble to respond constructively to their questions. And likewise, I am well aware that spending a day giving evidence in a room like
03:10:35 a day giving evidence in a room like this in front of a whole lot of people about experiences that uh were troubling for you uh is not easy. And I'm very
03:10:46 for you uh is not easy. And I'm very grateful to you for taking the effort to do that and for fulfilling that purpose with commendable
03:10:58 force and determination. Thank you. Okay.
03:11:32 Oh, you want that? There you go.
03:11:50 Right. The room if you'd like. Yeah.
03:12:09 Yes. Nice to meet you. Missing