Testimony from an SDS manager regarding undercover officers' sexual relationships with activists, assumption of positions of responsibility in target organizations, and the surveillance of justice campaigns including the Blair Peach campaign. The witness admits he would have 'dealt with it differently' had he known about sexual relationships, but acknowledges officers would not have told him due to fear of consequences.
00:20:31 all rise please
00:20:47 thank you sir mr butler can we turn now to the officer who we know is hn155
00:21:12 we have had evidence that he was living a full alternative lifestyle undercover did he
00:21:19 tell you that what do you mean by false getting stoned did he ever mention that to you who didn't
00:21:26 didn't uh he
00:21:29 uh he we have heard evidence from his risk assessors that he told them that he had had sexual contact with activists
00:21:39 activists did he tell you that no
00:21:47 what impression did he give you about how he was conducting himself undercover
00:21:55 i got to know this officer quite well
00:22:00 i realized he was
00:22:06 quite well in with his group
00:22:08 his group um
00:22:17 but he didn't give me any reason to suspect that his behavior was anything to cause concern
00:22:27 do you think that if he had been doing those things sex and drugs he would have told you
00:22:35 no
00:22:40 because it would have led to trouble for him
00:22:41 him certainly
00:22:44 can we turn to hn 67
00:22:55 which 67.
00:23:05 i think it may be one of the names that's been added at the end
00:23:43 um
00:24:00 hmm
00:24:14 can't find 67 right oh we'll come up come back to that after the break then
00:24:25 in your witness statement you say as far as i was concerned then and now
00:24:30 and now the sds provided a terrific service trouble free
00:24:38 in the light of
00:24:42 of the evidence from officers such as vince harvey
00:24:43 harvey who has
00:24:47 who has accepted he slept with four women and hn 21 who's accepted he slept with one woman
00:24:54 one woman does that remain your view
00:25:03 vince harvey i can't comment on because i'm fairly certain i had very little to do with him at all um i can't remember him being on the squad at the same time possibly he did no my view would have changed i considered i was
00:25:23 would have changed i considered i was extremely lucky i had a couple of years working with a very successful team who presented no problems and i suspected
00:25:24 suspected um
00:25:30 um we were doing nothing untoward and
00:25:31 and now that you do know not only about the two officers that i have just identified but about the problems with the
00:25:45 but about the problems with the sds more generally which led to this inquiry being set up what is your view
00:25:57 well i'd probably want to wait for the final report before i comment but it would seem that uh if those
00:26:05 if those positions are correct that officers were having affairs then
00:26:15 i'm disappointed and had i known i would have dealt with it differently
00:26:27 can i move now to the assumption of positions of responsibility
00:26:34 where in your witness statement you say that
00:26:38 that there was definitely a balance to be struck
00:26:41 struck and you talk about crossing the line between acceptable recording roles and unacceptable direction setting and incitement
00:26:52 incitement i'd like to explore that by reference to some examples can we start with hn96 please
00:27:06 he was we know the district book organizer for a branch of the
00:27:07 the swp
00:27:13 and said that he was advised not to become too prominent can you recall whether it was you who gave him that advice or not i can't recall
00:27:28 i can't recall what is your view of assuming the role of district book organizer for the socialist workers party
00:27:39 i'm not quite sure what that would entail but it would seem that that would be within the parameters of acceptable uco operations because
00:27:49 because because he didn't seem to be formulating their policy or
00:27:55 policy or directing them towards unlawful acts
00:28:02 if we could have up please on the screen mps-074572
00:28:13 at page 41. this is hn 96's witness statement
00:28:15 statement and i want to read to you a passage about what he did within tom starts a paragraph 199
00:28:26 paragraph 199 hackney was a particularly active branch of the tom in the sense that there were a lot of active and enthusiastic members a number of its members were on the national steering committee at some point during my time on the tom
00:28:42 at some point during my time on the tom there was a vacancy to join the national steering committee the post that was available was that of membership and affiliation secretary and i believe it was decided that post had to be filmed had to be filled by a
00:28:54 had to be filmed had to be filled by a member of the hackney branch of the tom paragraph 16 of my impact statement date of the 19th of september 2017 i stated
00:29:06 of the 19th of september 2017 i stated that i was national secretary of the tom that is incorrect having reviewed the contents of my witness pack i can see that the correct title for the role that i undertook in the tom
00:29:22 i undertook in the tom was membership and affiliation secretary i was put forward for the post at a meeting of hackney tom and i accepted i came into possession of meeting minutes in that way
00:29:34 in that way normally i would have shied away from a position like that out of concern
00:29:39 where's that gone
00:29:44 uh that it would draw too much attention to me but i decided that undertaking the role would give me a closer insight into the things that the tom were doing
00:29:57 the things that the tom were doing the nomination came out of the blue so i did not have the opportunity to discuss it with my managers beforehand i spoke to them about it as soon as i
00:30:09 i spoke to them about it as soon as i could after my nomination had happened i remember them being pleased can you recall whether you were pleased with hn 96's deployment into tom i can't remember
00:30:21 if you can't remember can i ask you in the abstract would becoming the membership and affiliation secretary if tom
00:30:29 tom be something that the sds would regard as a good thing yes and why
00:30:36 and why because it would give greater access to membership and administrative things like that without putting him into a
00:30:49 without putting him into a a position which would be against sds policy this was a position that gave him a seat on the national steering committee and if the name is anything to go by
00:31:02 and if the name is anything to go by wouldn't that be dangerous territory for your policy
00:31:07 it depends what you did on that committee if you were the membership and affiliation secretary i don't see how that could uh compromise him
00:31:20 compromise him do you recall speaking to hn 96 about this at all no i don't do you think that you would have done
00:31:32 possibly i don't know and if you had known what do you think you would have said to him
00:31:37 i would have ensured that he was comfortable with that position that he didn't think
00:31:48 that it would draw too much attention to him
00:31:54 him and make his uh position too difficult would there be circumstances in which you'd tell him to resign from that position
00:32:03 if after our discussions he indicated to me that it could be difficult for him then i'd urge him to resign yes but if he didn't speak up you would have been quite happy for him to remain on
00:32:21 been quite happy for him to remain on the national steering committee of tom i would have assumed that he was comfortable in that position and wasn't going against any of our principles so i would have been happy yes
00:32:35 can we go back to hn155 please
00:32:50 he obtained a position in the headquarters of the socialist workers party can you recall that i do and what was your view of of him working in the swp hq
00:33:07 having spoken to him he felt comfortable in that position and he assured me that there were no problems and i supported him and was the product
00:33:19 and was the product of him being in that position well received
00:33:21 received it was
00:33:28 it was can you recall anything in particular no and can you recall whether it was well received
00:33:30 received uh not just by you but by others
00:33:36 i can't say
00:33:40 hn126 please
00:34:01 we've got evidence that he um obtained a seat on the north west london district committee of the swp can you recall that no was that the sort of position that was
00:34:13 of position that was considered a good thing yes
00:34:14 yes why
00:34:15 why again because he would be in a position to identify
00:34:26 the membership and also probably be privy to information earlier than others but on the district committee he would be participating and
00:34:43 would be participating and voting on decisions about the operation of the group wouldn't he i don't know what they did did you try and find out no
00:34:53 can i move to a completely separate topic now
00:34:58 topic now the wives of your undercover police officers
00:35:01 officers you visited wives at the recruitment stage
00:35:02 stage yes
00:35:06 yes and that was to ensure that they understood the role the long hours and the weekend duties that we're going to follow yes
00:35:19 can you help us with the extent to which the wives were informed about what the job would entail
00:35:34 i can't recall the precise details they wouldn't have been told very much about the political activity
00:35:43 activity that would be investigated they would be told in more general terms of the as you've described it the long hours the
00:35:56 disruption of family life the fact that they're
00:36:04 they're husbands would no longer be going to work ten to six in a smart suit but doing irregular hours uh very untidally dressed and
00:36:13 and to ensure that the wives understood those difficulties and were happy to uh support their husband
00:36:26 were happy to uh support their husband in the role so far as the actual job was concerned would they be told no more than that it was important work exactly
00:36:38 can you recall going to the 1980 and 1981 christmas lunches yeah
00:36:43 yeah lunches yes or were they lunches or dinners dinners did you have any other contact with undercover officers wives other than seeing them at the start of the
00:36:54 seeing them at the start of the deployment and at those two social occasions
00:36:58 no
00:37:06 do you think that the sds asked a great deal of the wives of undercover police officers
00:37:07 officers yes
00:37:11 yes with hindsight would more contact have been a good thing
00:37:17 i can't tell possibly
00:37:23 can i turn now to your chain of command you've named derrick neal ken pride and jeffrey kraft as chief superintendent in s squad
00:37:39 as chief superintendent in s squad various times as you were in the sds and in various roles did it help having former sds managers as your superiors
00:37:54 i wasn't aware that they were
00:38:00 did they never say so they didn't
00:38:06 did you ever get the sense that they knew
00:38:07 knew about the unit and what was going on
00:38:15 probably jeff kraft did the others i didn't see very much of how much contact did you have with your superiors
00:38:26 not very much there was
00:38:33 we were left to our own devices mainly i reported to jeff kraft um
00:38:39 um on a fairly regular basis but there wasn't an awful lot of face to more telephony contact
00:38:50 more telephony contact this is because you'd move to vincent square indeed
00:38:53 did you feel a bit remote
00:39:01 i don't think remote's the word i think it was a
00:39:05 it was a it was good to be away from the yard um
00:39:12 for the sort of duties we were performing was there any criticism of the sds from your superiors whilst you were serving in the sds
00:39:31 the only criticism i can recall is by jeff kraft on the subject of overturn okay on that if there's anything specific please don't mention the names of any anonymous officers yes anything other than the criticism of overtime
00:39:42 criticism of overtime i can't recall anything no
00:40:02 can we move now to some of the annual reports from your uh stint in the sds we'll start with 1979 please it's tab 11 sir nps-0728963
00:40:19 and once we've got that up that's just the covering letter can we go to page seven please in the file
00:40:32 now at the bottom of paragraph one it says that information obtained from this delicate source has allowed a realistic assessment to be made of numbers likely
00:40:44 assessment to be made of numbers likely to be involved in extreme left-wing and anarchist demonstrations and the probable intentions of the participants enabling uniform police officers to be appropriately deployed to
00:40:56 officers to be appropriately deployed to frustrate planned disorder and safeguard property intelligence gained on individual members of extremist organizations is always invaluable to special branch officers
00:41:09 officers in both the metropolitan police district and the provinces and to the security service in what ways was individual intelligence valuable to special branch
00:41:40 individuals make up
00:41:41 make up the group and if you're reporting
00:41:49 that a group is about to cause public disorder
00:41:55 then it's important that you know who the individuals in that group are
00:42:07 what does that tell you over and above the fact that there's going to be disorder
00:42:12 well you'll know for example who some of the people uh involved will be and how does that help
00:42:26 it may well be that arrests need to be made if this disorder is serious enough and you may need to identify some of those creating
00:42:37 creating causing those disorder and offenses presumably in a public disorder situation police arrest those who are being disorderly
00:42:51 well very often arrests are made subsequent to the event
00:42:59 can we move to page 10 please and paragraph 9.
00:43:10 and that reads the general election held in may was the focal point of intensive activity by several extremist parties the socialist workers party issued contesting any constituency in favor of a policy of confronting the national
00:43:21 a policy of confronting the national front dealing during the latter party's election campaign the swp contrived to make use of all
00:43:32 the swp contrived to make use of all public meetings arranged by the national front to arouse anti-fascist feeling the death of blair peach an active supporter of the anti-nazi league which was a consequence of a violent anti-fascist demonstration in southall
00:43:47 anti-fascist demonstration in southall provided the extreme left wing with an opportunity to mount a sustained campaign
00:43:48 campaign to discredit and criticize the police information supplied by sds staff was of great value
00:44:03 great value in enabling uniformed officers to deal effectively with the public order problems
00:44:07 problems which arose both during the period before the election and on subsequent demonstrations held in connection with the death of
00:44:15 of peach
00:44:23 peach can i start first of all with the phrase a sustained campaign to discredit and criticize the police was that the way that you viewed what was happening
00:44:38 was happening i can't remember now if i wrote it then presumably it's what i thought at the time
00:44:45 time do you now think that what happened in the light of blair peach's death was
00:44:49 was a sustained campaign to discredit and criticize the police i haven't really given it any thought
00:45:02 were the metropolitan police interested in obtaining intelligence on campaigns to discredit and criticize the police
00:45:11 not as such i don't think no
00:45:18 why were they interested then in
00:45:19 in the blair peach campaign
00:45:26 i can only suppose the
00:45:27 the interest was to obtain intelligence about possible demonstrations and disorderly conduct
00:45:38 and disorderly conduct if the police weren't interested in campaigns to discredit and criticize them
00:45:48 them why is that referred to in the report i can't remember
00:45:56 can you recall whether or not there was any public disorder following the death of blair p i can't remember
00:46:10 did you consider that the blair peach campaign was something that your bosses would be interested in intelligence about
00:46:33 only if it involved potential disorder not a campaign per se did you know that these reports were going to go to the going to go to the senior chain of command
00:46:37 command and to inform decisions on future funding of the sds
00:46:43 no i had no idea about the funding issue
00:46:55 did you think the home office would be interested in intelligence about the blair peach campaign i don't know that i considered it
00:47:09 we have had evidence of very little trouble indeed arising from the friends of blair peach campaign
00:47:23 the friends of blair peach campaign is it possible that this report was written in the way it was because
00:47:25 because the blair peach issue was thought to be a big deal and it would be a good thing to make the sds appear to be an important part of policing the campaign
00:47:42 i can't recall why
00:47:46 that was included in the report
00:47:59 can we take that down please and can we have up ucpi five zeros one three five three nine
00:48:09 and if we could have that expanded please
00:48:20 5th of november 1979 the following information has been received from a reliable source privacy is resigned from the socialist workers party but is to maintain her interest in women's voice and the anti-nazi league submitted herewith
00:48:31 submitted herewith is a photograph of her
00:48:44 is a photograph of her taken during the funeral of blair peach in london on the 13th of june 1979 it shows a good likeness of the subject do you know whether or not sds officers took photographs at the funeral i wasn't aware of that no
00:48:59 this report
00:49:00 report crosses the sds desks at a time when you are in the sds did the fact that a photograph taken at the funeral
00:49:16 that a photograph taken at the funeral was being used to identify an activist cause you any concern
00:49:25 i'm not even sure if i saw this report if we scroll down please
00:49:31 that's is that ferguson's signature at the bottom i don't know it's not mine
00:49:44 does it cause you any concern now that a photograph was taken at the funeral and then used by the sds to identify an activist
00:49:56 yes i think it would be inappropriate at a funeral to do that
00:50:05 do you know anything about the anonymous officer we call hn 41 giving a witness statement to police about his presence at the demonstration in southall
00:50:17 in southall no
00:50:27 would you accept that this was a justice campaign which actually in the end did secure some justice for blair peach i can't remember
00:50:38 if we could take that down now please
00:50:46 if we could go to the 1980 report it's tab 18 sir mps-0728
00:50:53 six two
00:51:02 and if we could go to page eight please
00:51:07 and look at paragraph 16 and 17
00:51:17 16 reads predictably the anti-nuclear movement was active throughout the year with various nuclear related policies coming under attack the transportation of nuclear waste and the sighting of cruise missiles in the united kingdom
00:51:30 cruise missiles in the united kingdom provided focal points for demonstrations mounted in london in east lothian the protest continued against the building of a nuclear power station at tornes point
00:51:42 point and demonstrations were held in may and on a smaller scale in august sds offices were present on both occasions
00:51:48 occasions and the information passed to the lothian and borders police was useful in preventing serious disorder and damage to property
00:52:04 and damage to property was the sds activity in relation to torness
00:52:05 torness one of its major achievements of 1980. possibly yes
00:52:15 and if we go to 17 anti-fascist activity continued to tax the resources of the metropolitan police and in february march april and june there were right-wing marches which attracted
00:52:26 attracted counter-demonstrations from many sections of the revolutionary left the trotskyist socialist workers party
00:52:41 trotskyist socialist workers party playing a principal role the midsummer period was quiet and the last sizable opposed demonstration occurred in november
00:52:42 november when about 700 members of the british movement marched in the paddington area and were confronted by some 1900
00:52:58 and were confronted by some 1900 counter demonstrators sds information was supplied in respect of all these marches
00:52:59 marches is it right to say that confrontations between the far left and the far right were the biggest single public order problem the sds had to report upon in 1980.
00:53:16 probably i can't remember this paragraph starts anti-fascist activity continued to tax the resources of the metropolitan police
00:53:31 of the metropolitan police why is it phrased so as to put the emphasis on the anti-fascists rather than confrontations between the far left and the far right
00:53:45 i have no idea was there a feeling that it was the far left who were more to blame than the far right
00:53:55 it depends what you mean by blame the ones most likely to cause
00:53:59 to cause serious disorder
00:54:11 it was felt were they far left and what do you mean by cause create
00:54:13 create how
00:54:19 by attacking those they opposed and also the police who were generally uh a good target for for all demonstrators
00:54:35 presumably you were well aware at the time that there were a lot of
00:54:38 a lot of racist attacks on the streets mounted by the far right
00:54:41 probably
00:54:47 and that's as far as public order is concerned it takes two to tango
00:54:55 yes i don't think the job of the sds was to try and predict individual
00:55:02 racist attacks that's a
00:55:06 that's a a crime dealt with by police by uniform or cid
00:55:08 or cid the sds was more interested in
00:55:14 large-scale serious disorder
00:55:21 but was it not outrage at some of these attacks which prompted
00:55:23 prompted the demonstrations that led to public order problems
00:55:31 i've never tried to view the problems from the
00:55:34 from the viewpoint of the extreme left but i accept that's probably right
00:55:40 could we take down this report please and move to 1981 so that's a tab 44 of your bundle it's mps-o
00:56:00 and again we've got the covering letter at the start so if we could go to page four please
00:56:14 on this first page we see a paragraph to the
00:56:18 the coverage section of the report which lists on that page various trotskyist groups in so far as we've been able to publish them could you hold in your mind please women's voice
00:56:33 voice and if we go over the page to page five more groups under pro
00:56:41 under pro under the anarchist can you bear in mind freedom collective under pro-irish tom then anti-nuclear
00:56:49 on the next page
00:56:56 you have cnd amongst the number of anti-nuclear groups
00:57:00 groups could we now go to page seven
00:57:10 and if we look at the paragraph at the top of the page paragraph seven that reads the question of security of the sds is and always has been of
00:57:21 the sds is and always has been of paramount importance for the personal protection of the field officers and to prevent
00:57:39 of the field officers and to prevent embarrassment to the commissioner by its existence becoming public knowledge to this end every possible precaution is taken to ensure the security of the headquarter flats and the offices individual cover flats careful attention is paid to ensuring that every operational officer's cover is as secure as possible
00:57:54 is as secure as possible before he enters the field the political sensitivity of the sds operation is fully recognized by all officers concerned the attempted penetration of an organization is never
00:58:09 organization is never undertaken unless such action can be fully justified on the basis of the commissioner's responsibility for the preservation of public order in the metropolis
00:58:23 in the metropolis first of all going back to the third line
00:58:27 line what was the embarrassment to the commissioner that was feared
00:58:42 well i suppose the fact that an undercover unit existed which the police had never openly disclosed might cause the commissioner embarrassment
00:58:59 why would using undercover police officers cause embarrassment
00:59:08 perhaps embarrassment isn't the word perhaps criticism it might be that he wouldn't be embarrassed by the criticism and would bat it off but it's just a
00:59:20 it's just a word was the concern that what was being reported on was political activity and it would be embarrassing for it to emerge
00:59:27 emerge that police officers were going undercover to report upon political activists
00:59:38 political activists that's not what is meant by that paragraph no well can you help me any further as to what is meant by that as i've just explained the actual existence of the this doesn't refer back to those
00:59:52 this doesn't refer back to those particular groups this is talking about the security of the sds generally and i think
01:00:01 the mere fact that something is secret
01:00:09 and its existence is not to be known outside a very limited
01:00:12 limited circle
01:00:14 circle then its
01:00:17 then its disclosure probably would cause embarrassment well if we take for example undercover police officers who are infiltrating drugs gangs or serious organized criminal groups
01:00:32 or serious organized criminal groups there's no embarrassment on the part of the police that it does those things is there
01:00:42 there no but i think it's probably generally accepted by the public that such undercover officers have been employed for many years what isn't known is that attempts
01:00:51 attempts to
01:00:53 to manage
01:00:54 manage public disorder attracted the same type of policing and there may be a concern that the public wouldn't accept that
01:01:07 public wouldn't accept that i don't think there is but it could embarrass the commissioner
01:01:16 can we move down to the words political sensitivity of the st sds operation is fully recognized
01:01:27 fully recognized is that a reference to the matters that we've just been discussing
01:01:34 yes i think so
01:01:43 and then it goes on to say the attempted penetration of an organization is never undertaken unless such action can be fully justified on the basis of the commissioner's responsibility for the preservation of public order in the metropolis this is at the point at which i want to come back to some of the groups that i asked you to keep in mind
01:01:55 you to keep in mind women's voice was that a really a public order threat
01:02:07 until i've re-read this report annual report i must say i've never heard of them i couldn't couldn't recall them at all so
01:02:19 so they possibly weren't a public order threat and we're members of the freedom collective really a public order threat again i don't know who they are
01:02:34 presumably you will remember the campaign for nuclear disarmament of course it's right to say they put very large numbers of people on the streets but isn't it also right to say that their
01:02:49 their demonstrations were very well stewarded and uh entirely peaceful yes as i
01:02:55 yes as i replied earlier this morning they were quite often infiltrated by extremists who wanted to use their well-organized demonstrations for their own purposes
01:03:06 but the public order actuality
01:03:10 actuality was that they weren't causing public disorder were they the cnd
01:03:13 the cnd core members know but
01:03:16 but splinter groups within them could well try and incite them to commit offenses
01:03:36 it was was the mere possibility that somebody might try and incite a group which was in fact stewarding perfectly orderly demonstrations really sufficient fully to justify
01:03:48 fully to justify infiltration to preserve public order
01:03:59 i think a lot of these groups were infiltrated or examined incidentally as part
01:04:10 or examined incidentally as part because we didn't have enough officers to infiltrate all those groups they were reported on because they attended the same meetings or demonstrations as the groups the sda officers were covering
01:04:30 the sda officers were covering in the case of cnd though as we discussed earlier hn65 was deployed into cnd wasn't he
01:04:33 wasn't he i think that's the officer we're talking about as i was leaving i yes i had no dealings with anybody reporting back on the cnd
01:04:47 can we move now to page
01:04:49 page nine
01:05:00 paragraph 18
01:05:09 18 the socialist workers party under the guise of the right to work campaign continued throughout the year to organize pickets occupations and marches as protests against unemployment and cuts in public expenditure their most noteworthy adventure was a
01:05:25 their most noteworthy adventure was a march 8 to the 16th of october 1981 from liverpool to the conservative party conference in blackpool where some 5000 persons took part in an anti-tory demonstration
01:05:37 demonstration lancashire police have placed on record their appreciation of the assistance rendered by the sds in connection with this event
01:05:49 can you help me first of all how much do you recall of the
01:05:50 the 1981 right to work march i remember it but i can't remember anything about it can you recall that
01:06:00 that hn 155
01:06:02 hn 155 was the treasurer that year
01:06:06 that year for the right to work campaign
01:06:22 i can't remember whether he was or not can you recall whether or not there was trouble outside the conservative party conference on that occasion
01:06:30 no i can't remember
01:06:39 thank you can that be taken down please i want to move now to the home office you have said in your witness statement that you had lunch with an individual
01:06:50 that you had lunch with an individual from the home office about once a month can you help us with the rank and position within the home office of the person with whom you had lunch no i can't remember who he was
01:07:08 no i can't remember who he was do you have any idea whether he was a senior official or a very junior official
01:07:19 no i can only assume by his age and demeanor that he was reasonably senior at whose initiative did these meetings take place i don't know i don't know whether i continued
01:07:32 this practice of meeting them or whether it was set up while i was a manager i can't recall can you remember whether or do you know whether the initiative had come from the sds
01:07:45 had come from the sds or from the home office no i have no idea
01:07:47 idea what was the purpose of the meetings
01:08:00 there were very much social meetings i can't remember what else was what what might have been discussed in business terms but
01:08:04 a colleague and i would meet
01:08:08 this chap for a beer and a lunch
01:08:16 i can't really remember what the uh the reason was um being careful not to mention any anonymous names
01:08:27 anonymous names who was your colleague who attended the meetings with you
01:08:36 it would be a fellow manager it wouldn't be one of the undercover officers
01:50:37 all rise please
01:50:54 i have made and there will be printed a formal restriction order prohibiting the disclosure or publication of
01:51:01 of anything
01:51:02 anything stated
01:51:07 stated in the hearing room between the times 2 51
01:51:18 and 1 2nd pm and 2 52 and 4 seconds pm so that everybody knows what may not be broadcast i will identify the questions and answers immediately before the passage that may not be broadcast
01:51:34 mr barr asked can you recall if the home office imparted any information to you in these meetings
01:51:41 meetings answer no
01:51:49 mr barr no you can't remember or no they didn't
01:51:50 didn't answer
01:51:51 answer no they didn't
01:51:59 what then follows up until the passage that uh with a bit of luck i will read in a moment may not be published or disclosed either now or at any time
01:52:10 now or at any time i'm
01:52:13 i'm going i'm afraid to have to seek help
01:52:15 seek help to move the screen down
01:52:36 mr bauer's next question was
01:52:47 sorry the the next question which you may um
01:52:48 may um publish or disclose uh by mr barr was if i can now move on to vetting could we have up on the screen please then he refers to the number
01:53:01 refers to the number now if we look there there is an entry under vetting he reads it do you know anything about that no i don't
01:53:10 don't so it is and i hope you understand what i've said
01:53:11 i've said the
01:53:13 the questions and answers in between those two passages that may not be published or disclosed they will in due course be redacted from the day's transcript so as to make it
01:53:24 so as to make it perfectly clear the order that i have made may seem curious to you
01:53:35 may seem curious to you but it is important that it is obeyed it is important not merely for the inquiry and for
01:53:43 and for other interests but also your own because where it to be breached then the consequences for anyone found to have reached it could include
01:53:55 could include reference to the high court for
01:53:56 for proceedings for contempt of court which could result in
01:54:01 in serious penalties for anyone found to have been in contempt of court can we now proceed
01:54:14 thank you sir mr butler
01:54:18 mr butler can you answer this very specific question
01:54:20 question did mike ferguson assume a position of responsibility within the anti-apartheid movement when he was an undercover police officer
01:54:38 i don't know the answer to that thank you that was my last question um there'll be a break now
01:54:45 yes we did we had almost got to the end whilst we see whether anybody else wishes to propose questions the mirth is entirely understandable um but the
01:54:58 entirely understandable um but the purpose of the break is to permit any one who wishes mr barr to ask any further questions of this witness to do so and therefore may serve a useful purpose we rise for 20 minutes please
02:17:57 all rise please
02:18:08 mr barb before you begin i understand that the
02:18:16 that the formal orders which i made and announced before are now on the table in front of those
02:18:17 those to whom they apply thank you
02:18:20 thank you mr buff
02:18:22 mr buff thank you sir mr butler can i ask you about a specific area of expenses can you help us with
02:18:37 can you help us with what the policy was for re for undercover officers reclaiming expenses
02:18:45 expenses first of all for alcoholic drinks which they had bought to consume themselves during the course of their undercover duties
02:18:58 they wouldn't be allowed to claim for alcohol
02:18:59 alcohol unless it
02:19:02 unless it formed a small part of a substantial meal they're allowed to claim expenses by way of subsistence for food but not for for alcohol alone
02:19:21 uh can you help us with what the policy was for claiming the cost of alcohol bought
02:19:22 bought for
02:19:24 for the activists who they were spying upon
02:19:41 i can't actually recall those sorts of claims
02:19:46 the officers had to regularly submit a diary which included claims for expenses based on what they've been doing and expenses incurred
02:19:59 expenses incurred i can't specifically recall them claiming for alcohol for other people
02:20:07 it might have been shown as an incidental expense but i can't really recall
02:20:21 but i can't really recall can you recall in general terms first of all whether you had any impression of how much alcohol undercover officers were drinking whilst undercover
02:20:38 i would say most of them drank regularly but not excessively they all drove and driving was an ex exceedingly important part
02:20:48 of their duties so whilst when we met we usually had a beer um
02:20:54 but as i say with
02:20:56 with the fact that they wouldn't want to
02:21:01 be in a position
02:21:11 of drunkenness in the company of uh their group nor would they want to run the risk of drink driving so i would say their drinking was fairly regular but not excessive did you have any concerns that any of
02:21:30 did you have any concerns that any of them might have been drinking first of all to a level which might have impaired their judgment no
02:21:36 no and secondly to have affected their welfare in the longer term i didn't know
02:21:44 were you concerned that activists might have been bought rather a lot of drinks by undercover officers i never gave that any thought no give that any thought in that you didn't care how much they
02:21:56 care how much they bought for activists or did you mean it in some other sense in some other sense in what sense that i never gave you any consideration i assumed that
02:22:06 that if you're going to be part of a group you would stand your round
02:22:13 round but you wouldn't buy excessive
02:22:15 excessive drinks
02:22:16 drinks just because you could afford to can i ask you now we i think we've provided the net the real name
02:22:28 provided the net the real name not to be uttered of course of hn 67 uh do you have that no i couldn't find 67 right is that in the where the post-it note is
02:22:42 where the post-it note is i don't have the book at the moment right well that's a cast iron excuse
02:22:55 thank you
02:23:11 the question is did you ever hear any suggestion that hn 67
02:23:25 that hn 67 had fathered a child with an activist not at all any joking to that effect certainly not any rumors no
02:23:31 no did you know hn 67 yes in terms of what you knew about him do you think he is a sort of man who might have
02:23:38 have had sex with an activist that does surprise me i didn't think he but then who knows
02:23:51 can i ask you now a question i want you to answer yes no did you ever give any consideration to providing cover girlfriends for your undercover officers no
02:24:16 did you ever expressly ask any of your undercover officers if they had had any form of sexual contact with
02:24:28 with anybody in their undercover identity no did you ever ask any of them whether they had come under any pressure to indulge in sexual activity no
02:24:35 finally you say in your witness statement that you were called into the office at the end of your tour
02:24:43 tour in the sds and in the conversation where you were told you would be moving on there was something to the effect that
02:24:55 there was something to the effect that if you stayed longer you might lose your objectivity and always side with the undercover police officers
02:25:06 without going into the specifics of any particular issue
02:25:10 what was your superiors concern
02:25:19 i don't know he didn't tell me he just said
02:25:23 said it's time for you to move he didn't use quite your language but you sum it up well he said you're getting too close
02:25:34 well he said you're getting too close to the uh the undercover officers again without mentioning any specific issues had you found yourself fighting their corner with him or other senior managers not with him he was he was above the
02:25:46 he was above the escort office
02:25:53 but with i'm taking from your answer you might have done with another senior manager possibly um is this again don't go into any details if the answer is no but is this the
02:26:01 the the overtime issue yes again without being specific anything else no
02:26:11 else no i'm sure you'll be very pleased that that's very last of my questions thank you very much thank you sir is there any re-examination nothing for us like you said thank you um then i'm afraid with uh
02:26:24 um then i'm afraid with uh uh rather a lot of interruptions that concludes your evidence thank you for coming thank you sir
02:26:36 that now concludes the this stage of the inquiry's hearings
02:26:42 when we will meet again remains to be seen
02:28:24 you