This session features testimony from Diane Langford, a prominent activist who was infiltrated by undercover officer Mike Ferguson (HN135) while she was involved in Marxist-Leninist groups and women's liberation movements in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Langford powerfully describes her legitimate political activism, the theoretical nature of her group's revolutionary politics, their strict commitment to non-violence, and her shock at discovering an undercover officer had infiltrated even executive committee meetings.
00:18:43 good morning good afternoon everyone and welcome to the first day of evidential hearings in branch one phase two at the undercover policing inquiry
00:18:51 inquiry my name is neil fernandes and i am the hearings manager for those of you in the virtual hearing room please turn off both your camera and
00:19:02 please turn off both your camera and microphone unless you are invited to speak by the chairman as zoom will pick up on all noises and you will be on screen i now hand over to the chairman sir john mitting to formally start proceedings
00:19:19 mitting to formally start proceedings chairman thank you at the beginning of this evidential session as at the beginning of every evidential session a recording made by me
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00:23:32 thank you we are now going to hear the evidence of dan langford
00:23:38 langford is lengthened i can see you on the screen
00:23:40 screen can you hear me
00:23:49 okay i've unmuted myself can you hear me i can though wilder very good um first of all uh you must be sworn or affirmed or in some manner acknowledge that the evidence you will give will be the truth
00:24:04 give will be the truth may that now be done please um mr fernandez
00:24:08 good afternoon miss langford good afternoon can you see and hear me i can i understand that you would like to affirm
00:24:14 to affirm correct thank you please repeat after me i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:24:26 and truly declare i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:24:33 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth
00:24:47 but the truth thank you miss langford chairman thank you
00:24:47 you ms wilkinson
00:24:55 thank you sir miss langford your um full name is miss diane langford are you content if i refer to you as ms langford yes i am amongst your many politically active roles
00:25:10 active roles in 1970 you co-founded the women's liberation front and state your political priority over the past 50 years to have been the liberation of women from all forms of oppression
00:25:26 of women from all forms of oppression and exploitation you are also for the inquiries purposes the witness most able to assist with the political views and aims of abi manu manchanda whom you married
00:25:38 of abi manu manchanda whom you married in january 1970 and with whom you had a child
00:25:39 child later that year is that correct yes
00:25:50 later that year is that correct yes just going to move to full screen there thank you um you have provided the inquiry with a thorough and detailed statement dated the 15th of march
00:26:01 march 2021 which evidence is now before the inquiry and i understand is to be published on its website today together with five exhibits that you produce
00:26:08 produce is that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes it is today we'll highlight parts of your statement and look at the context of your political activism and that of mr manchanda
00:26:20 that of mr manchanda and consider some examples of the undercover policing reporting about you in that context and you'll appreciate that i have to cover questions submitted by a range of core participants
00:26:31 by a range of core participants who've all had an opportunity to ask about different aspects of your evidence as it affects their case if at any stage you need a break
00:26:43 you need a break or you have any query about something i've said or you don't understand something i've said please feel free to pause and ask thank you you were born in new zealand
00:26:56 thank you you were born in new zealand in 1941 and you witnessed the effects of colonialism and racism on the indigenous people there is that right yes your brothers
00:27:08 yes your brothers received a university education but less importance was placed on your education so by the age of 15 you were working in a factory
00:27:15 a factory yes but you continue continue to study and you studied in the evenings and you started using a correspondence course
00:27:27 started using a correspondence course that's correct and then you moved uh to london
00:27:33 london into the uk in 1963 with your younger brother who himself was to continue studying
00:27:35 studying and you found at that stage the shift from the strict segregation that you'd experienced in new zealand to the life in the thriving multi multicultural city of london to be exciting and inspiring
00:27:47 exciting and inspiring yes then it was in 1965 that malcolm x was assassinated and you yourself
00:27:56 yourself experienced two significant instances of personal trauma which led you to reflect on issues of
00:28:07 on issues of racism and sexism and spurred you into your first involvement in political activism that's correct
00:28:19 by october 1968 then you were a volunteer at the campaign against racial discrimination and had also joined the print union nat soper working as an active trade union member by then
00:28:32 member by then yes and it was following the october 1968
00:28:39 1968 demonstration against the vietnam war that you joined the british vietnam solid direct solidarity front where you first met abby manu manchander the group's chairman
00:28:49 chairman yes except that it's called the britain vietnam solidarity it's a sorry to quibble but i know that wrong
00:28:54 wrong thing got into my statement but it's written britain vietnam solidarity fraud
00:29:05 fraud thank you it's a grammatical point really
00:29:06 really um it might now might be a good opportunity to have a look at the first reporting that we see from the sds officers um about
00:29:17 see from the sds officers um about about you bearing your name and in the context
00:29:20 context of that group the british annuals will see the name written there britain vietnam solidarity front can we bring up
00:29:26 bring up a report mps-0732690 and ms langford that will appear on the screen in front of you when the technicians produce it
00:29:39 technicians produce it we'll make sure it's as big as it needs to be for you
00:29:47 for your um reference sir that's behind tab one of your bundle
00:29:53 now this is a report we can see dated the 11th of march 1969 so within months of the october 1968 demonstration we can see
00:30:09 the name of the group in the organization written there it's a meeting in a pub in king's cross and if we can scroll further down the page
00:30:20 we can see you're one of the individuals that's been identified as being present there and
00:30:23 there and i think as you've noted in your statement yourself you don't have a any sort of rf or file number next to your name at that stage is simply a reference to mentions and then the name diane langford
00:30:38 the name diane langford um if we can go to the top of the next part of that report please next page
00:30:45 we just thank you folks at the top we can see that one of the future activities listed is going to be the national
00:30:51 national britain vietnam solidarity front conference that was announced for the 26th and 7th of april and the report references the discussions of that particular event
00:31:12 thereafter you continue um we can see perhaps in the last part of that report the last paragraph there al is the reference given there al manchanda
00:31:18 manchanda summed up by congratulating all those who had taken part in the demonstration and stated that next week's meeting would be taken up by discussing
00:31:30 would be taken up by discussing the methods by which recruitment could be increased and the likely areas for setting up new branches um just a couple of points arising out of that
00:31:41 arising out of that the reference to al was that a nickname that was broadly used for mr manchandr at this
00:31:44 at this at that time i know you call him manu in your statement was al a common name no it wasn't i've never heard it until i saw it in these reports
00:31:55 these reports sometimes he if he was signing something he used to sign it a manchanda but um i've never heard of see albert or al ever you haven't no
00:32:09 or al ever you haven't no how was he commonly known amongst those in those that knew him well in the meetings
00:32:10 meetings manu manny um and we can see therefore that there's a reference to next week's meeting were these weekly meetings of this
00:32:21 these weekly meetings of this organization i think we were meeting weekly
00:32:24 weekly at the union tavern pub for quite a long time
00:32:25 time yes and indeed some of the reporting demonstrates that you were a regular attender
00:32:33 attender broadly weekly um from about this point onwards
00:32:37 onwards that's probably right yes we wind forward then um to a couple of months later we're going to look at the report in may
00:32:48 going to look at the report in may of of the same group may 1969 and we're going to look at the report about this conference that was being identified mps 0736
00:32:57 0736 six for your reference there that's tab six
00:33:08 and we can see this is the this is about the um
00:33:12 the um the open conference that was appears to have been a meeting that went on for over two days over a weekend i think um over both days and it was attended by some 50 people
00:33:24 some 50 people almost exclusively maois
00:33:37 we can see on page five of this report your name appears there and by now and this is i think the first time we see it you've got a file reference so it's not just mentions now but there's a reference to a number for you by this stage
00:33:53 and um the reference to the people attending uh 50 about 50 miles the britain vietnam solidarity front was a maoist group wasn't it
00:34:03 wasn't it we didn't call ourselves maoists we called ourselves marxist leninists and i'm happy to with to be called a mouse that's shorter and and and that was because of the um the theory
00:34:17 the theory uh from from gem and mao that was um being discussed and and espoused effectively during the course of these many meetings is that right that's right
00:34:28 right in fact we if we have a look and i think um
00:34:29 um we'll look at this and the underlying attached document that was written by mr manchander but if we just look at the summary that was written by the officers attending this conference
00:34:42 attending this conference about what went on during the course of it and we can see where you can where you
00:34:45 you agree or disagree with the summary can we move to page two please
00:35:02 um at the latter we can see um in the second part of that first paragraph manchester united political report part one
00:35:07 one this was heard without any show of enthusiasm and received some perfunctory applause oh sorry i'm i haven't caught up to that um sorry
00:35:23 is that a paragraph yeah just above that just above that there's an introduction to the fact that mr manchander was listening out reading out the political report and we'll have a look at that of it in a moment just to understand what the theory i see yeah this was heard without any show of enthusiasm
00:35:36 enthusiasm and received some perfunctory applause at the end a copy of his speech is given at appendix b and we'll have a look at that in a minute but this is the summary it is interesting to note
00:35:49 interesting to note that manchanda features opposition to imperialism as the uniting factor between
00:35:53 between proletarian struggles in europe and the colonial revolution in the east this is the central theme of bvsf thinking and its supporters were expected to believe as an article of faith
00:36:05 faith that the north vietnamese in fighting the americans are not just metaphorically on the same side as revolutionary marxists in europe but are actually fighting in the same war
00:36:16 war he emphasizes that both are aspects of a world proletarian revolution and claims that the proletariat as a class have no business slick to anyone other than chairman mao for guidance in their
00:36:29 guidance in their struggles um just dropping down a little it says
00:36:33 it says so we can see the sentence that begins the russians the russians are false exponents of the marxist tradition and permit bourgeois elements to hold paris i'm
00:36:44 paris i'm sorry i've got left behind there a bit my fault i see yes yes thank you to the technician for using the cursor the uh russians are false exponents of the marxist tradition
00:36:56 the marxist tradition and permit bourgeois elements to hold power in their so-called socialist society and if we drop down a little further where we can see
00:37:06 the quotation
00:37:12 um can you can we see the word considerable just slightly higher up with the cursor if the technician can assist
00:37:17 assist right in the middle of the sentence does that yes i see considerable ruthless ruthlessness would be required of the proletariat before it could achieve power
00:37:25 power quotes before coming to power the proletariat and other revolutionary people
00:37:32 people should adhere to the principle of making revolution by violence smashing the old state machine and seizing political power by armed force end quotes as a reference to the
00:37:41 the appendix b and then this additional insert from the officer and chandra did not appear to hold out any immediate prospects of this uncomfortable eventuality taking place in england
00:37:55 eventuality taking place in england but invited members of bvsf to view the world situation especially events in asia africa and latin america as part of a massive anti-imperialist movement inspired by chairman mao
00:38:09 chairman mao now that um we can just take that down for a moment please
00:38:16 do would would you agree that that was an accurate summary of of the mr manchanda's views and how his unifying approach to an anti-imperialistic
00:38:30 anti-imperialistic um revolution should should take place
00:38:38 i agree that that is a summary but on the other hand it is in the context of a very long document i've also read appendix b where um he was talking about the domination of finance
00:38:49 domination of finance capital imperialist spheres of influence and mao's theory of contradiction and so on and talking about the weakest link in imperialism and that that these
00:39:04 in imperialism and that that these struggles that were going on in vietnam for example um these these were examples of people rising up against
00:39:16 rising up against the state you could say yes and smashing the state you could say and i think it's in that context that um it's about state power
00:39:27 it's about state power and how one perceived state power and mel had written a lot about that um for example he used slogans like political power grows out of the barrel of a guns
00:39:38 out of the barrel of a guns except for example but i think it would be obvious to anybody that this was not being um put forward as something that was going to um happen in this country anytime soon
00:39:51 um happen in this country anytime soon although examples of struggles against state violence have occurred here for example people going out on the streets protest against police violence and um one of the
00:40:04 and um one of the one of the things that we've seen would be
00:40:07 be calling the state as being the sort of enforcer
00:40:12 enforcer of policies um such as the war in vietnam
00:40:18 vietnam and when people oppose you know in third world countries as we called them back then
00:40:22 then um people were rising up and many was making the connection between the working class in this country and those people who were um fighting the same struggle
00:40:34 same struggle um and it was that that's how we thought yes and that's that's solidarity yes that's right and one of the reasons why i was attracted to joining a maoist group as people called us
00:40:51 group as people called us was that this gave a very clear analysis of what colonialism and imperialism was all about
00:40:55 all about and made that connection that people who are repressed should unite and fight against that power and
00:41:00 power and i still think that can i use the um underlying appendix to have to highlight a little bit of those exact points that you're making them as langford yes um so this isn't in the same tab
00:41:14 yes um so this isn't in the same tab bundle so um you may have to refer to it on screen it's reference mps 0736
00:41:26 reference mps 0736 447 and this is the appended report that the officer provided back to special branch
00:41:27 branch which is the actual speech written by mr manchander and delivered over the course of that weekend
00:41:39 you can see there his name as you say he signed things a manchanda yes general secretary of the bvsf and we can see answers for the open conference if we could perhaps go to page three
00:42:02 and there are several paragraphs that begin formally
00:42:09 um formally it was the accepted thing can we just scroll down to the uh lower part of the page to look at one of those
00:42:16 of those examples
00:42:23 yes so about halfway down the page can we see that the sentence begins formally it was accepted a paragraph starts formally it was the accepted thing to speak of the proletarian
00:42:35 proletarian revolution yeah thank you that's the right example to speak of the proletarian revolution in
00:42:46 in or in one or another developed country as of a separate and self-sufficient entity opposing a separate national front of capital as its antipode now this point of view is no longer adequate now we must speak of the world's
00:42:58 now we must speak of the world's proletarian revolution for the separate national fronts of capital we have become linked in a single chain because the world front of imperialism which must be opposed by a common front of the revolutionary movement
00:43:10 of the revolutionary movement in all countries is that an example of of the point being made that there is there is a single link between
00:43:19 between all the fights against the state whether it be in vietnam or on the ground in england
00:43:20 england yes i think that puts it very well and and also i'd like to invite you to look at it from the other side of it which is that the violence
00:43:33 violence um which is obviously um people have implied
00:43:37 implied that we were more violent or we had our agenda was somehow violent it was completely the other way around and that
00:43:46 and that these kind of documents that you're looking at now are about people resisting the violence of the state in order to get justice freedom liberation
00:43:59 liberation call it what you will um the majority the vast majority of people um have to at some point come up against the state
00:44:07 the state as we've seen in so many different um things that are going on at the moment for example the issue of deaths and custody and so forth yes
00:44:18 forth yes and the resistance to uh justice in terms of so many issues including
00:44:24 including um women's liberty the demands of the women's liberation movement which are which have still been unmet yes if i if i'm if i may with you miss langford look at a few more quotes from this
00:44:34 this lengthy document because it does highlight exactly those points and indeed
00:44:41 indeed draws right towards the end of it i'll show how it draws um the various different strands of of groups of resistance or strands of people that were being affected
00:44:52 people that were being affected on the ground in the uk and we can see then
00:44:52 then um the impact and what mr manchanda was talking about in terms of what should be happening in the uk um if we look at page seven please
00:45:11 you can see at the top this is this is the part where he's talking about the era of world proletarian revolution under the banner of the mao forgive me i don't i can't pronounce that particularly well i'll say some thought um and we can see there's a part
00:45:27 thought um and we can see there's a part um scrolling a little further down which begins
00:45:33 begins lennon said quoting from um thank you uh yes thank you lennon said that the basic question in any revolution and this is i
00:45:44 question in any revolution and this is i think the point you were making there ms langford
00:45:47 langford in any revolution is that of state power he also says said that those who recognize only class struggle are not yet marxists only he is a marxist who extends the recognition of the class struggle
00:45:59 recognition of the class struggle to the recognition of the dictatorship of the proletariat so it should be that the proletariat should end up with the power to be able to
00:46:07 to to um be the dictatorship and that's what was
00:46:11 what was marking lennon out in his particular views and you would identify your group as a marxist leninist group is that right that's right um
00:46:24 it goes on the dictatorship of the proletariat is the quintessence of marxism leninist little issue of the proletarian revolution and the magic weapon which guarantees that the proletariat will defeat the bourgeoisie
00:46:44 will defeat the bourgeoisie and be victorious in its socialist cause i think if we just scroll a little further that's where the the um reference to the quote that was taken
00:46:53 taken um out of out of the this report and put into the police report then comes if we just scroll a little further down that page
00:47:01 oh no forgive me
00:47:06 it's about
00:47:32 yeah um the paragraph that begins the penultimate paragraph that begins the new historical experience if we can just focus on that please thank you
00:47:41 the paragraph begins new historical experience are you following there thank you very much thank you if we drop down about four lines we can see where the quote comes from
00:47:55 see where the quote comes from before coming to power thank you before coming to power the proletariat and other revolutionary people should adhere to the principle of making revolution by violence and this is where this is what the
00:48:07 and this is where this is what the officer was smashing the old state machine
00:48:09 machine and seizing political power by armed force once in power the proletariat should carry the socialist revolution through to the end prevent the revisionists from usurping the leadership of the state
00:48:21 the leadership of the state the party in the state prevent the restoration of capitalism and defend and consolidate the dictatorship of the proletariat so it was in that context that was the reference to
00:48:33 reference to the violence and smashing of the state um obviously revolution appears to have been the aim uh would you agree with that
00:48:50 i i do agree up to a point but obviously this was completely theoretical and um
00:49:00 and um it was also seen in a global context so for example the victory of the vietnamese people over um the us forces in vietnam was seen as a huge
00:49:09 a huge victory for people ever all over the world
00:49:13 world um perhaps we we might have thought rather that this country would have been the last place where such a revolution might take place
00:49:22 place although there was one um further back in history but um i think leonard actually said told clara zetkin that
00:49:32 that uh if you want to do something very difficult go and do your work in in england um so there was a recognition that this
00:49:38 that this this was a very much of theoretical um postulations that he's putting forward here and he's using
00:49:49 here and he's using a lot of quotations from um books by lenin by mao by stalin and others who written tracts on
00:50:00 and others who written tracts on the issue of the state and the issue of the state
00:50:04 the state was very very much studied within our group
00:50:08 group and study study sessions were held um regularly to read um theoretical works not only mao lenin and so forth but others as well
00:50:19 but others as well who've written about this the issue of the state and would you did you agree and share that same political thinking and theory with him
00:50:30 yes i still think that the state is a force which is there to act as the enforcer of oppression yes how how did he and you um
00:50:43 yes how how did he and you um want to achieve the revolution that was the theory the theory without violence well there are many different um
00:50:54 well there are many different um methods that we used for example having demonstrations um
00:51:06 public meetings showing films we also would do even parliamentary lobbying um there are lots of different ways of uh of organizing of taking part in trade union activity uh industrial activity
00:51:23 literature film social media strikes rent strikes boycotts occupations motorcades i've been involved in all of those things street theater
00:51:34 those things street theater hustings influencing political parties housing associations tenants associations solidarity groups
00:51:49 associations solidarity groups women's groups prisoners rights groups tenants associations and all of these of course you know civil society organizations and all of these are the kind of um organizations that have been targeted by uh the sds
00:52:00 by uh the sds or who acted in my view like the stasi
00:52:10 was it made clear during the course of all of these uh uh events or efforts and and demonstrations and public meetings that violence was not to be used
00:52:26 yes as a matter of fact yes as a matter of fact it was very very strongly um
00:52:37 very very strongly upheld by our group in particular as a maoist group
00:52:44 group that self-discipline in organizing and demonstrating and so forth was a very important
00:52:45 important and any kind of individual activity was really frowned on for example the notion of
00:52:52 notion of say the angry baguette brigade people we would have frowned on their activity and anybody who um indulged in
00:53:05 and anybody who um indulged in macho posturing at demonstrations i remember somebody who was a member of our group once did take off his shirt outside the south african embassy and set fire to it and he was very
00:53:18 and he was very much condemned um and caused a lot of anguish in our group that he behaved and we thought that was petty bourgeois and adventurists
00:53:33 adventurists these were the sort of words that were used about people who indulged in in that sort of posturing how widely held in your groups was this understanding and appreciation of
00:53:44 understanding and appreciation of that violence wasn't to be used you've talked of an example there where somebody did decide to take to take that fairly dramatic yes why would he have it was very much it was very much part of the ethos of the group
00:53:56 group that there should be collective activity and not people going off and you know acting like idiots on their own
00:54:05 um may i just use this finish off with this document to to to demonstrate how um the the appeal of this group and mr manchanda's
00:54:18 manchanda's thinking linked in with your particular field of interest in terms of women's liberation and had a broader impact um we by part two of this report um ms manchander is
00:54:30 manchander is dealing with what is happening in the uk and
00:54:33 and we see him link in the struggles of many different
00:54:34 different groups to the suffering um under the wider british imperialism at page 18 of the report
00:54:52 if we can go to that we see this is the rapid decline of british imperialism and the struggle of the working class for political power and from the police reporting this appears to have been the
00:55:03 appears to have been the paper he delivered on the second day of the conference if we scroll down to the latter part of this page please
00:55:14 we can pick it up about halfway down where it says and he's here linking in different groups in order to crush the workers resistance new fascist repressive measures are being rushed through
00:55:27 being rushed through and he was pointing to barbara castle's white paper which threatened militants workers resistance with fines and jails i think that was a paper aimed at trying trying to take away power from trade unions
00:55:39 power from trade unions um that was being correct introduced at that stage drop down to the next paragraph he references ireland he says britain's oldest colony island still remains half under the direct depression and
00:55:51 under the direct depression and exploitation and the other half under indirect law what an irony of british democracy the people of northern ireland in their struggle even for ordinary civil liberties and voting rights
00:56:02 liberties and voting rights are brutally suppressed by the royal arsenal constabulary using water cannon armoured cars and truncheons facing the rising militant resistance of the northern ireland people
00:56:14 the northern ireland people the rulers from westminster in utter panic are rushing in more troops so he's linkies he's he's appealing there to workers who feel that their trade union causes
00:56:25 who feel that their trade union causes are being limited he's appealing there to people in ireland um who are struggling halfway up the paragraph
00:56:31 paragraph just above the reference to ireland forgive me there's a reference to enoch powell
00:56:36 powell can we see that while enoch yes while enoch powell incites racialism in words wilson supported by heath enforces racial discrimination and depression against the colored
00:56:49 depression against the colored minorities to divide the working class and divert their wrath from the exploiting bosses monopoly capitalists so he's in he's appealing to those people who are suffering suffering racism
00:57:05 suffering racism if we just scroll down to the next part next page please
00:57:17 uh this is a repetition i think it's been copied in an odd way this is repetitious of the page we've just seen before so if we can move to probably page 20.
00:57:37 at the top of that page there's a new awakening amongst the students and youth in their growing struggle against bourgeois cultural values the system of education and desire to unite with the working class against the onsource of capitalist
00:57:48 onsource of capitalist system and i think there had been a reference
00:57:49 reference at the top of the last page to them being the victims of police brutality and appealing to people in that sphere and then finally um the paragraph beginning
00:58:01 beginning working women working women who've suffered double servitude since class oppression emerged in society are also being drawn into the working class struggle in the economic social and political fields for equal rights and their own emancipation
00:58:21 so this is this is his theory and his um and his rhetoric and his speech appealing to a broad a broad base of people all um struggling under oppression he would say
00:58:29 say and therefore all motivated to rise up and act in resistance to the state
00:58:42 state and this is where the interests of those people who feel they're suffering in ireland
00:58:45 ireland as well as women as well as workers all come together under the same umbrella in this thinking is that is that a fair assessment yes it is
00:58:59 and so the bvsf on the face of it he he hoped would attract a lot of membership from all of these groups that all felt that they were
00:59:10 needing to raise awareness and take action
00:59:22 i guess so he um latterly i think right at the bottom of this page
00:59:34 i think can we go to the very end um paragraph
00:59:38 paragraph where he references other other groups of a similar similar title as being fraudulent and he was cautious to guard against people being distracted by a slightly different vein of this political thinking is that is that fair
00:59:54 let's move um so page 21. i don't see that on the screen but i i can speak about it anyway um let me just see if i can assist with a reference okay thanks
01:00:14 on the page yes that very bottom paragraph please
01:00:19 uh beginning it is impossible
01:00:29 about halfway uh out on that line this is impossible to oppose an overthrow imperialism without us without simultaneously carrying on a ruthless fight against revisionists social democrats and trustees and their fraud
01:00:41 fraud and diverse diversionary tactics in the so-called unity of the left only this correct correct political orientation can uh can real unity of the revolutionary forces be
01:00:55 unity of the revolutionary forces be established and a mass movement built the bvsf
01:00:58 the bvsf must take the initiative to unite in action with the new militant forces of youth and workers so is he guarding against different different strains of theory and and let me yes let me just
01:01:11 me yes let me just go through that was it social democrats trotskyites and what was the other one revisionists oh yeah i'll just explain what that was about um it's such a long time ago
01:01:21 time ago but these was quite uh live things at the time social social democracy i guess he's talking about sort of parliamentary democracy work
01:01:36 sort of parliamentary democracy work that thinking that things can change by um by through through the parliamentary system which um
01:01:45 um was not seen to be a possibility although it would be part of the it could be part of that but the actual philosophy of social democracy um didn't
01:02:00 philosophy of social democracy um didn't take into account the issue of the state um trotsky i think would be about the differences over for example the issue of vietnam this explains it quite neatly that
01:02:18 explains it quite neatly that the trotskyite groups didn't regard the vietnam resistance as being revolutionary because it was being wasted basically by um by peasantry as they would see it
01:02:29 um by peasantry as they would see it um so therefore anyone who owns say a plot of land couldn't possibly be revolutionary because they had they had owned some private property even though it might just be
01:02:40 even though it might just be they might just be subsistence farmers but
01:02:40 but um mao's theory was that people who in countries which were underdeveloped
01:02:51 and didn't have an industrial working class to carry through the so-called revolution which would be
01:03:01 based on an industrial working class overthrowing [Music]
01:03:06 [Music] the government in somewhere like this country
01:03:11 country um so that was a different so there were differences about for example uh trotskyite groups would not adopt the slogan victory to the nlf because the nlf was
01:03:24 because the nlf was they saw those as just being national movements
01:03:25 movements and therefore not revolutionary uh and the revisionist thing is about this the role of the soviet union and as mentioned in this document as well the soviet union had
01:03:45 well the soviet union had uh um invaded czechoslovakia and went on to invade afghanistan as well so it was seen seen as uh um [Music]
01:03:54 [Music] as another neo-colonial neo-imperialist social imperialist um that's how that would have been um seen so those were the three themes and the differences between the different groups and particularly the view
01:04:06 the view of um how how much you allow yourself with
01:04:09 with um that that approach to russia and the soviets
01:04:12 soviets was it that sort of level of division and disagreement in that pure curious thinking that led ultimately to disagreements within the leadership of the bvs
01:04:25 leadership of the bvs bvsf yes the fragmentation of the group that's right yeah and also um manu was not convinced that sections of the white working class
01:04:37 the white working class were ready to give up the privileges that they derived from colonialism whereas others were saying the british working class is the most advanced in the world
01:04:46 the world and all that sort of stuff and was it this feature of um feminism being part of a unified
01:04:58 being part of a unified worldwide approach to oppression that caught your imagination yes definitely it was thank you and so so we know that um these this was a meeting in um 1969 halfway 369.
01:05:14 in um 1969 halfway 369. in 1970 you founded the women's liberation front and also um the women's equal rights campaign
01:05:24 campaign yes the women's liberation front were demanding
01:05:27 demanding um equality for women in all spheres campaigning regularly particularly in respect of education for girls and women whereas the equal rights campaign focused more on trade union and working with trades unions
01:05:39 with trades unions that's right and you i think arranged and attended the first women's liberation conference in 1970 yes well i was part of a larger
01:05:56 yes well i was part of a larger organizing group that um that set up ruskin yes
01:06:06 the um that uh division in thinking and theory um we see a little more of at uh where um somebody called nick bateson
01:06:16 bateson appears to have been voted out of the meeting and expelled um because of the division in in the purism and and the thinking if we can just have a look at a document to remind ourselves about that it's mps 0736435
01:06:33 it's mps 0736435 tab 9 for your bundle sir
01:06:55 here's the london region meeting of the bvsf
01:06:57 bvsf and um we
01:07:00 and um we can see that the agenda for the meeting was the role of the batesons and ibrahim in the bvse
01:07:13 in the bvse to the expulsion of the above mentioned and then the election of new officers and an executive committee together with forthcoming plans for the bvsf
01:07:23 bvsf the meeting was chaired by um harper bra who explained briefly the reasons for the meeting and then asked al-manchanda to give an account of the bates and
01:07:29 bates and ibrahim's revisionist activities over the past two years and this mr montander did a great length uh there was a short discussion
01:07:40 uh there was a short discussion um and indeed he was he was arguing and i think this is exactly the point you were making that the revisionist principles didn't sit with the marxist leninist principles is that right yes and indeed so this
01:07:53 yes and indeed so this vote took place and we can see um if we scroll down towards right at the bottom of the page well perhaps just further down this part of the page thank you
01:08:09 part of the page thank you we can see that various people were being proposed to be elected into positions
01:08:13 positions um on the in the group you're present at the meeting mr manchand is electing being elected as chairman and the proposal to eject these people and vote a new committee in was accepted unanimously
01:08:28 was accepted unanimously and if we look over the page that appears to have been reported on by detective sergeant m ferguson so amongst that group
01:08:46 ferguson so amongst that group involved in a vote which expelled people and formed a new executive committee there appears to have been an sds officer
01:08:48 officer yes apparently
01:08:57 um you continued uh to attend meetings and
01:08:57 and indeed um meetings of groups titled slightly differently there was the vsc
01:09:08 there was the vsc um group as well did you attend meetings of that
01:09:13 of that committee the vietnam solidarity committee
01:09:14 committee yes i did i i to be honest with you i don't remember being there but i can see from the files that i did attend such a meeting
01:09:24 meeting yes and those those carried on and at simultaneously you were developing the women's liberation front and starting that so perhaps if we can move
01:09:39 can move to an example of an early example of a report about the women's liberation front
01:09:40 front um it's a tab 17 sir for you and then for the screen it's ucpi five zeros
01:09:51 ucpi five zeros two six nine eight seven
01:10:03 two six nine eight seven so this is the latter part of 1970. um if we just look at the bottom part of the page it's signed by hn45
01:10:16 the page it's signed by hn45 and that is an officer that you recall and recalled his cover name is dave robertson
01:10:17 robertson is that right yeah
01:10:20 and um this is a
01:10:30 meeting where that paragraph we can see um beginning with your name diane langford and there appears to be a hand entry i.e mrs manchander were you married by then by november 1970
01:10:46 yes uh and you're there references referenced as the general secretary of the women's liberation front yes put forward a resolution condemning the renewed bombing of north vietnam by u.s imperialist forces and a copy of this would be sent to the vietnamese women's union
01:10:58 vietnamese women's union the meeting was then closed by chris mckinnon and there was no mention made of any future activities at that point and we see a number of people mentioned as having attended there um
01:11:14 attended there um what were the aims how did the women's liberation front single itself out within the women's liberation movement what was different
01:11:22 different about the front as opposed to anything else and this report can come down sure well we called it the women's
01:11:33 sure well we called it the women's liberation front to identify it with um liberation as a liberation organization uh in solidarity with other liberation organizations around the world and there were differences in terms of
01:11:46 and there were differences in terms of um putting the emphasis on working-class women
01:11:49 women some of the aims of our organization a little bit different from the four main aims of the women's liberation
01:12:00 main aims of the women's liberation movement although we were the group who put forward the um the aim of uh equal education um we brought that to the table and that was accepted by by the whole women's liberation movement um
01:12:15 other difference other differences that i could
01:12:16 i could mention were that we had included other aims in our in our manifesto so to speak such as
01:12:30 in our manifesto so to speak such as um that the term illegitimate shouldn't be used about children and the notion of being born out of wedlock was a very stigma stigmatizing
01:12:45 stigmatizing and that whole thing affected working-class women um [Music]
01:12:47 [Music] very deeply and we'd also um added a couple of other
01:13:00 aims into our manifesto such as um
01:13:14 changing changing the divorce laws and about male violence would if i brought up the
01:13:17 up the manifesto would that help summarize it for you um reference ucpi five zeroes one zero five seven oh and we'll look at page three of that please
01:13:29 page three of that please and there are the seven points i think of your aims and objectives if you if you would just um okay have a look look at that please
01:13:42 do you recognize that this is a document that you had a hand yeah writing yeah your address yep yes um yeah powerful image title women
01:13:53 um yeah powerful image title women women's liberation front and this was this this these were the this is the leaflet that you would regularly hand out at various of your yeah your conferences yes point one was uh organizing women in general working class women in particular
01:14:04 class women in particular uh and win support from the other sections of the community to fight for a society in which there shall be no exploitation and that oppression of women and where they shall enjoy equal rights and opportunities with men
01:14:18 opportunities with men 0.2 to fight for the equal right equal rate for the job so equal pay was important although there was legislation i think going through through parliament in 1970 or for the equal pay act wasn't there
01:14:33 for the equal pay act wasn't there there was but it was it was hedged about with all kinds of ways that employers could
01:14:34 could um could get out of it um point three to five for equal opportunities in employment education training social and political life as
01:14:45 training social and political life as a um and then a reference particularly there to prenatal and postnatal periods that returned to the right to return to the same job without suffering any loss as of a right
01:14:56 as of a right guaranteed by statutory law something you were campaigning for particularly four to fight against discrimination
01:15:07 four to fight against discrimination against women with regard to marriage and as you just referenced divorce inheritance of property taxation insurance in all fields of economic and social life in the community point five all women should have the right to bear children or not if we scroll down
01:15:27 in order to make this right effective adequate contraceptive and abortion facilities should be made available free on the national health cervix six to involve women in political and social activities thus to help in the development of their
01:15:41 to help in the development of their long-suppressed talents and to wage a consistent struggle against male chauvinism and point five to support the struggles of women of all countries in the realization of the common aims to end the system of exploitation and depression and for this purpose to take part in the
01:15:56 and for this purpose to take part in the struggle in britain and support struggle of their workers and oppressed people all over the world and that's what you had to sign up to if you wanted to become a member of your group
01:16:04 yeah um
01:16:11 we can see the link between the women's liberation front and um the marxist leninist theory and thinking
01:16:17 thinking by virtue of the fact that there was a group called the revolutionary marxist leninist
01:16:25 leninist league that i think was um mr manchanda was very influential in as were you where there was quite an overlap of membership is that right that's right um what what uh
01:16:42 um what what uh if you can briefly help us with what did the revolutionary marxist leninist league
01:16:43 league do differently from the uh britain vietnam solidarity front for example we can take this report down now okay well
01:16:59 the rmll was a very small group of maybe 10 to 12 people um who saw themselves being um
01:17:10 people who had more experience for example
01:17:15 example you know man who had had experience of the um anti-colonial struggle in india he previously been the partner of claudia jones who set up the first black newspaper in britain and
01:17:26 black newspaper in britain and um was instrumental in starting the first caribbean carnival in this country
01:17:35 country she'd been expelled from the united states under the mccarthyite period so we're talking about influences which were very long standing within
01:17:45 within um
01:17:46 um [Music]
01:17:49 [Music] liberation theory and practice so those of us who wanted to go into things more deeply
01:18:00 things more deeply to read to study revolutionary theory to understand the history of different revolutions as they happened in the soviet union in china
01:18:12 soviet union in china in cuba et cetera you understand the national
01:18:18 national liberation struggles that were going on in asia africa and latin america um we formed the small group and then um tried to um reach out by forming other groups which didn't
01:18:31 by forming other groups which didn't require the same amount of commitment for example on the issue of vietnam and on women's liberation and there was a group called friends of china as well
01:18:54 group called friends of china as well which was about um supporting china's right to be a member of the united nations which it wasn't back then so this was the difference and there was something of a thing about the rmll this sort of
01:19:05 rmll this sort of yes i'd say yes with other groups that's right
01:19:08 right and it was a very small group so if necessary
01:19:11 necessary he was reporting on this group it would be within a very small membership of very very small of effectively a steering
01:19:16 steering a steering committee yes i'm conscious of the time it's one o'clock we'll come back and have a look at
01:19:23 at um a report from an officer who was in exactly one of these meetings um as soon as we resume again
01:19:34 as we resume again at two o'clock i think we started with you sir
01:19:45 yes that's fine thank you thank you i'm afraid you've got another hour and a half or so to go but um
01:19:50 um that's fine i'm sure i'll be fine thank you good
01:19:52 you good until two
01:19:59 we will now take a break for lunch hearings will resume at 2pm
01:21:18 you