Extended afternoon session featuring testimony from Diane Langford, partner of Blair Peach who was killed at a 1979 anti-National Front demonstration, and Dr Norman Temple about his involvement in maoist groups and the Irish National Liberation Solidarity Front. Langford describes undercover officer HN45 'Dave Robertson' infiltrating small Revolutionary Marxist Leninist League meetings at her home, suspicions about his Scottish background, and intimate surveillance of personal relationships. She also discusses HN348 'Sandra' infiltrating the Women's Liberation Front and being elected treasurer. Dr Temple provides detailed testimony about maoist political activities in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Irish National Liberation Solidarity Front (in lsf), and his experiences with undercover officer HN301 'Alex Sloan', including the emergency conference where Sloan was suspected of being a police spy.
00:19:25 good afternoon everyone and welcome to the afternoon session of today's evidential hearings for those in the virtu hearing room please remember to turn off both your camera and microphone I will now hand over to the chairman Sir John mitting to continue
00:19:41 chairman Sir John mitting to continue proceedings chairman thank you as at the beginning of every evidential session I'm afraid that a recording made earlier by me last year is going to be played uh for those who are listening to it for
00:19:53 for those who are listening to it for the second time I apologize for those who are listening to it the first time I would ask ask you please to pay careful
00:20:13 attention I am conducting this inquiry under a statute the inquiries act 2005 which gives me the power to make orders regulating the conduct of the inquiry including its
00:20:28 inquiry including its hearings in the exercise of that power I have made a number of orders which affect what you may and may not do in the hearing rooms and after you leave
00:20:43 the hearing rooms and after you leave them breach of any of the orders is a serious matter and may have serious consequences for you if I am satisfied that a person may have breached an order I have the power to certify the matter to the high
00:20:54 to certify the matter to the high court which will investigate and deal with it as if it had been a contempt of that court if satisfied that a breach has occurred and merits the imposition
00:21:10 has occurred and merits the imposition of a penalty the high court May impose a severe sanction on the person in breach including a fine imprisonment for up to two years and sequestration of their assets evidence is going to be given
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00:22:29 is inevitable that whether by accident or design information which I have ordered should not be publicly disclosed will sometimes be disclosed in a
00:22:47 sometimes be disclosed in a hearing if and when that happens I will immediately suspend uh the hearing and make an order prohibiting further disclosure of the information outside the hearing rooms the consequence will be that no further disclosure of that information may be made by mobile
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00:23:56 answer
00:24:08 M Wilson thank you sir Miss Langford are you able to come off mute and we can have a look at the uh next
00:24:17 report thank you all right thank you very much we were just focusing on the um revolutionary Marxist leninist league and you'd explained that that was a particularly small group of uh people
00:24:29 particularly small group of uh people who were reading more deeply into the theory and ultimately steering activities in other groups and H including how you could reach out to other other affected groups is that what
00:24:44 other other affected groups is that what you were saying just before we broke for lunch that's correct um can we have a look at document ucpi 10567 please behind your tab 20
00:24:59 sir and we'll see this is a meeting dated in uh January
00:25:12 1971 can you see there miss Langford that the um meeting takes place is that your home again your home address 58 Lisbon Road and yes and it was a meeting that went on for some three and a half hours that seems like a relatively standard duration for the sorts of meetings that
00:25:24 duration for the sorts of meetings that you were all regularly having does that sound about right I'm afraid so and um you uh talk about this being a small group there have been other meetings um I won't take you to the
00:25:35 meetings um I won't take you to the reports right now but there are other examples of this group meeting in the pub where there are about 12 people um meeting on this occasion there were 14 people present does that Accord with
00:25:51 people present does that Accord with your recollection of the rml's regular attendees
00:25:52 attendees yes and um if we have a look right at the back page of this report page three we can see that it's been signed off by hn
00:26:12 45 P page three me I'd said back page I apologize it's page three you see his um his his Cipher and uh rank appears
00:26:23 his Cipher and uh rank appears there so um he was an officer who was attending um at these meetings and the fact that we have earlier reports
00:26:35 fact that we have earlier reports regularly attending at these meetings of a small number of you um sometimes meeting in your home address for many
00:26:47 hours this meeting um if we go back to page
00:26:53 one was to plan paragraph three we can see the meeting was to plan our MLL activities for 1971 including the women's Liberation Front British Vietnam
00:27:07 Liberation Front British Vietnam solidarity front and Friends of China is this an example of of the rmll effectively steering some of the
00:27:19 effectively steering some of the activities of these other groups that's correct may I say something about the presence of Dave Robertson at the meeting
00:27:21 meeting yes I find it very hard to believe that he was actually in the room as he would not have been a member of that inner
00:27:32 not have been a member of that inner group and however I should explain that we had a system of candidate membership which um lasted for six months and so there might have been
00:27:44 months and so there might have been somebody in the room who was a candidate member but even that I find you know that would be stretching it that the actual meetings of the rmll would have really been restricted to me full me of
00:27:57 really been restricted to me full me of the rmll and so I was very surprised to see that um he has identified himself as having been actually been in the
00:28:11 having been actually been in the meeting um well on the face of the rest of this report it's quite detailed yes so obviously the information has come from somewhere yes um I was going to ask you this at
00:28:24 um I was going to ask you this at another point but I I will raise it now I think in your statement you you you recall him um quite clearly don't you Dave Robertson I do and I think you referenced in your statement that he
00:28:36 referenced in your statement that he would come to your home quite frequently and that you would socialize with him that's right there would have been meetings of um larger groups in in our home for example bvsf meetings which he would have been able to attend but
00:28:47 would have been able to attend but something that under the you know there were one or two meetings that were held where members of the public were able to come um they'd be more like like study
00:29:01 come um they'd be more like like study groups and things like that rather than business meetings so to speak I'm going to come on to another example of a report where there's only five people present includes you Mr
00:29:14 five people present includes you Mr manchanda and at least one officer yeah again a very small um meeting absent their presence on the face of it they must have
00:29:22 must have um got this information well they must have got their this information from some uh somewhere and on the face of it quite detailed suggesting they were present in in very small meetings at people's home
00:29:36 in very small meetings at people's home addresses yes I've I've noticed that in in my witness bundle and I'm very surprised at that but I I have been thinking about this and I we were being surveilled by other
00:29:47 surveilled by other agencies um and I'm wondering even possibly the room may have been bugged our phone was bugged at certain times and
00:30:03 times and um perhaps when we come on to the the meeting where the organization split that in particular was one where I thought um the information was very detailed and um may have been as a result of some
00:30:14 um may have been as a result of some disgruntled members of the group who were being challenged over their misogyny um you know might have found a
00:30:25 misogyny um you know might have found a sympathetic person waiting in the pub to have a bit of a gossip yes you um whilst we you've expressed the surprise about Mr Robertson yes knew him then being present um can I just
00:30:40 him then being present um can I just whilst we deal with this topic flick to a document that you exhibited U Miss Langford for our assistance yes sure which is the document that he he
00:30:56 which is the document that he he completed himself yes um when looking to join your uh group it's ucpi 534 4
00:30:58 534 4 4339
00:31:02 4339 please it's exhibit six at the front of your bundle sir P tab
00:31:23 six this is um to assist the technicians this is amongst the uh civilian documents that have been provided by Miss Langford appended to her statement it's 50
00:31:43 34339 thank you so this was a document that you've produced for the assistance of the chairman and the inquiry yes um which was a on the face of it a pro forer that was expected by everybody to be completed if they were interested in in joining your group it wasn't in joining
00:31:57 joining your group it wasn't in joining the group if you look at the top it says study
00:32:01 study classes so if you wanted to attend study classes this is complete that's right yeah and he gives the name there Dave Robertson in capitals address at flat 15287 westm Lane
00:32:15 15287 westm Lane nw6 uh you ask what books or pamphlets by Marx Engles Lenin Stalin and maung have you read and he writes Manifesto the state um I can't read all his writing value price and profits origin
00:32:31 writing value price and profits origin of The Foundry private property no it's family origin of the family private property and the state which was a book by
00:32:37 by Engles and Lenin on religion yeah regularly read the Lenin review the peaking
00:32:51 review the peaking review yes collected works
00:33:01 works um uh there's we can ask him about it um to something volume one have read a number of
00:33:08 pamphlets uh the leadership the directorship of the proletariat etc etc so does is that the sort of bibliography you would have expected as somebody beginning to attend study classes or does that is that a very well- read
00:33:20 does that is that a very well- read person before joining your classes or does that betray the fact that this is somebody
00:33:25 somebody just referencing well known texts and trying to fictionalize a character it looks like somebody referencing well-known texts or things that he
00:33:37 well-known texts or things that he thought would um appeal to us but at the same time it could have been genuine so it wasn't questioned at the time but I I do remember chatting to him because um he was from Scotland he told
00:33:51 he was from Scotland he told us and um weal I can remember we talked about
00:33:52 about um issues of relevance to um um workingclass movements and so forth in Scotland such as the revolt on the
00:34:07 in Scotland such as the revolt on the Clyde and things like that and he didn't seem to know anything about that so although we didn't that didn't immediately make us think he was undercover it was something that um sort of was put in the back of our
00:34:18 um sort of was put in the back of our minds as something that you know we we need to keep an eye on and he references here um on the question have you attended any marxis Lenard's classes
00:34:35 attended any marxis Lenard's classes before when and where yes he says 58 Lisbon Road 1970 on so does that in trying to suggest there by Spring 1971 that he had attended your home address
00:34:48 address before um maybe he had come along to a meeting
00:34:50 meeting um I don't I don't know whether he he would have attended any classes before because this was probably when we were
00:35:01 because this was probably when we were just set the classes up so I don't quite understand why he's written that we'll come on to you you um perhaps he was confused and thought that the meeting he was attending was a class um we'll come on to your handwritten entry further down the page
00:35:20 handwritten entry further down the page a little bit later when we deal with the um the meeting where he was compromised um and perhaps come back at that stage if you don't mind okay just when you were dealing with your confusion um or surprised that he was attending on the face of this record attending at your home address for one of these rmll
00:35:35 home address for one of these rmll meetings where you were planning yes the future activities for the group um can we just go back to that document because it's quite um there are a number of other aspects I'd like to draw out of it if you wouldn't mind UC CPI 51
00:35:48 if you wouldn't mind UC CPI 51 0567 please and that's still tab
00:35:58 20 so we know that the object of this meeting was to plan the activities and then paragraph four the main issue raised by manchanda was political agitation in Industry the rmll
00:36:11 political agitation in Industry the rmll had not so far been engaged in such work to any great extent but would now concentrate its activities in this field um to this end he had directed privacy privacy and privacy to obtain
00:36:27 privacy privacy and privacy to obtain employment with Fords at dagenham It is believed that all three have already made application for employment although they do not yet know whether they have been
00:36:33 been successful scroll down to paragraph five
00:36:41 please the women's Liberation Front hoped to extend its activities in the same sphere two new branches had been formed one in South London and another in North London which was in the Palmer's green area would be run by privacy and privacy privacy and this
00:36:56 privacy and privacy privacy and this location has been carefully chosen so as to be close to a factory of the metal box company on the North circular road which which employed a large number of women privacy said she would end her employment in order to take employment with the metal box
00:37:09 with the metal box company and there's a reference then to um you Diane lanord privacy and another wlf member only identified as Roberta all members of soat soat or however you
00:37:24 all members of soat soat or however you pronounce it in its um shortened version intended to try and organize women members of that Union although they had not deci decided exactly how they would do this Beyond attending Union meetings there's then a reference to a gentleman
00:37:39 there's then a reference to a gentleman who um is described as an Indian who is believed to have had connections with the Indian Marxist leninist Association he was there apologizing for not having been very active but over the next page if we move on he references the fact that he oh sorry sorry
00:37:55 the fact that he oh sorry sorry sorry um can we just stop there a minute while I remember otherwise by the the time you get to the end I'll forget of course yes it's about soat yes you just go back to that yes where it
00:38:10 go back to that yes where it says some of us are members of soat Yes it's only just occurred to me now that
00:38:23 it's only just occurred to me now that that's very peculiar using the name soat it makes me wonder when this report was written because at the time the union was called n soopa it was a print Union and it didn't take on the name soat until
00:38:39 1985 right well thank you for that reference you can see that's extremely peculiar and in fact it used to be called soat 85 that's how I remember it so well when a number of print unions merged into the into soat so how on
00:38:52 merged into the into soat so how on Earth anyone even knew that it was going to be called soat um in 1970 what is it I think
00:39:08 1971 oh thank you that's a an odity um but just dealing with the sort of the flow of this report the um g a gentleman was referencing his ability to to uh contact um this is the top of the next
00:39:27 page he had various cont taxs um in London particularly in the metalbox company which employed a large number of Asians uh the nature of this his involvement was not discussed in detail
00:39:39 involvement was not discussed in detail but it was apparent that he intended to work closely with manchanda and the rmll and then at paragraph eight manchanda stressed the need for members to be cautious in their approach to Industrial politics so as not to draw attention draw the attention of employers and others to their activity
00:39:51 employers and others to their activity at the outset what was this industrial activity to be when when why did people
00:40:03 activity to be when when why did people have to keep quiet and what were they to do when they got jobs in these places
00:40:04 places well there was a lot of industrial action going on at that moment against
00:40:19 action going on at that moment against the um industrial Relations Act and so I think people were encouraged to um uh support the opposition to that in in their work but I just also it uh seems to me that some of the um our members were quite young and
00:40:30 um our members were quite young and enthusiastic and they might have thought they were going to go and you know become revolutionary Heroes on the shop
00:40:41 become revolutionary Heroes on the shop floor and I think um there it's possible Manu was um advising people to to be modest in their behavior and um to you know to to listen and learn basically I
00:40:52 know to to listen and learn basically I think that was the advice that was being given
00:40:55 given there when what um you were referenced as
00:41:06 um saying that you weren't sure what people should do from the women's Liberation Front say for attending Union meetings at this stage is that Union meetings at their place of employment I'm not sure what you're
00:41:25 employment I'm not sure what you're talking about now what where is that go back to the previous page I apologize Miss Langford paragraph six
00:41:34 Dian Lanford uh privacy and another WF member only identified as Roberta and there's the reference to soat said that they intended to try and organize um women members of that Union although
00:41:51 women members of that Union although they had not decided exactly how they would do this Beyond attending Union meetings and this is on the back of um which is um iism um that perhaps the theme of what's being encouraged here making sure that people who are sharing the political
00:42:04 people who are sharing the political thinking are already embedded in the um factories and the workplaces um
00:42:09 um what what was there a Beyond attending Union meetings that ever took place in terms of this sort of industrial
00:42:20 terms of this sort of industrial activity from the WF wlfs perspective well it would have been for example inviting um people to come along to to join the women's Liberation Front and take part in the women's Liberation movement as one of our criticisms of
00:42:36 movement as one of our criticisms of that was that it was uh rather white and rather middle class the wlf as it stood at the
00:42:47 time no I'm saying we we would have invited women to join the women's Liberation Front and because we just considered ourselves as part of the
00:42:58 considered ourselves as part of the women's movement and that we would have have been bringing a workingclass dimension to that to the whole
00:43:06 movement there were already um um some great uh women trade
00:43:17 um um some great uh women trade unionists who were doing work in unions especially um cleaners around May Hobs and of course um later there was grunwick but at this stage the Ford work women who went on strike uh made
00:43:29 women who went on strike uh made historical contribution towards um the the winning of at least you know whatever whatever was lacking in the legislation at least it was a huge step forward for women yes and that initial strike action had taken place in 1968
00:43:42 strike action had taken place in 1968 hadn't it at Ford so a couple of years on from that and yes encouragement for
00:43:55 on from that and yes encouragement for three people to join Fords um as far as this this thinking in this activity is concerned
00:44:02 um then can we next move on this appears then in in terms of dating it this report is uh January 1971 and there's reference to you expanding to have two new branches of the women's Liberation
00:44:13 new branches of the women's Liberation Front and we see within a month of this
00:44:25 Front and we see within a month of this report that there's a new officer hn 348 who used the COV name Sandra who starts reporting um if we move to
00:44:26 to uh report ucpi
00:44:31 26988 tab 25
00:44:43 sir this is now February so it's just a few weeks on from that meeting and on the face of it uh does seem to be consistent with hn 45 reporting back that the women's Liberation Front uh is expanding and then there's
00:44:57 Front uh is expanding and then there's the introduction of of a of a new female officer uh into the into the field and focus on the women's Liberation Front as we know she did from her statement and I know that you've read her
00:45:12 reporting we see here this was at a pub in the Duke of Clarence Pub and we see your name appears in the middle uh that of Mr Man chander at the bottom if we turn
00:45:24 turn over it's a public meeting if we look on the second page
00:45:33 at the signatures at the bottom we can just see there officers present and it's WDC hn 348 and a detective Sergeant who goes with her on this occasion um had it
00:45:48 goes with her on this occasion um had it been 45 his Cipher would appear there so it's not him somebody else joining a public meeting with her she appends your um the manifesto that we looked at at earlier with the
00:46:05 that we looked at at earlier with the seven names and objectives and then we see her next um we see a meeting that she
00:46:11 she attends if we can bring up ucpi 6 sorry ucpi
00:46:13 ucpi 26992
00:46:22 please this is not in the bundle um hard copy bundle so this is this is on the screen so within a month of her attending at that public meeting in the pub this is a report by 348 attending a meeting at somebody's
00:46:36 348 attending a meeting at somebody's home of one of the study group and is
00:46:49 home of one of the study group and is this um is this a lot is this an example of what you were talking about with the rmll study groups were um were welcome for any open for anybody to attend well this looks like it was a study group organized by the women's
00:47:01 study group organized by the women's Liberation Front so it would have been um
00:47:03 um uh
00:47:05 uh yeah claraa zetkin Etc and it's a home so it's a it's a it's a two-hour meeting in someone's home that 348 yeah is already attending
00:47:22 home that 348 yeah is already attending having only yeah in in the field about a month by then there are only seven people
00:47:23 people present yes that very very strange indeed because um she must have done a lot of work in the meantime to
00:47:35 lot of work in the meantime to ingratiate herself to get invited to a smaller meeting like that um if we just scroll down the page
00:47:47 please an author's wife I don't remember seeing this this about the author's wife this wasn't in my bundle no because you're not actually present had you been present had your name appeared then it would have been in your bundle in sled so you're not
00:47:59 your bundle in sled so you're not actually yeah I know who that was that was John Arden um and Margarita Arden okay the playwright John Arden was is the author and the wife was Margarita
00:48:11 the author and the wife was Margarita Arden I I referenced this because I was trying to deal with how quickly 348 appears to have moved from a public meeting into people's private homes and was just wanting to understand whether
00:48:25 was just wanting to understand whether that would have been an unusual feature or would that be an invitation open to anybody wanted to attend people would have you know women especially would have been very welcome to come along to um wlf meetings
00:48:38 to come along to um wlf meetings especially if they showed an interest in actually sitting down and reading and studying
00:48:40 studying Etc but you know I'm I was surprised in reading the the the um material that was in my bundle
00:48:56 the um material that was in my bundle that she went from um a public meeting into very more private meetings in a very short while just looking at the text of this meeting is you you've referenced the
00:49:07 meeting is you you've referenced the fact that there there was an author talk an author's wife discussing um matters that very last paragraph um references that on oler privacy praised the re recent
00:49:19 oler privacy praised the re recent actions of the IRA which she describes as quotes a good way to start a revolution quotes was that the off's wife who's said that it's unclear from
00:49:32 wife who's said that it's unclear from the Privacy uh redaction it seems to be um obviously somebody present at the meeting the previous paragraph reads this woman mentioned that she and her husband came from Southwest irand where they had a house on and otherwise
00:49:47 they had a house on and otherwise uninhabited Island on a large lake yes it would make sense if it was her continuing to say that yes would would that view about supporting the IRA
00:49:59 that view about supporting the IRA action and being a good way to start a revolution have found favor with your group and no no it would not I did explain earlier that our group was very
00:50:11 explain earlier that our group was very opposed to um anything like um that was individual um you know individuals putting in in engaging in activity that was not mass-based and was just
00:50:22 was not mass-based and was just um do you know like individual Act of
00:50:39 um do you know like individual Act of violence were very extremely opposed to that and were very very careful to inculcate into people that it was through
00:50:41 through Collective action that we could make progress not not in this way at all did you ever in fact meet anyone to your recollection from the angry
00:50:53 from the angry Brigade I did not
00:51:03 but but I do recall that at one particular time um the were women who are wearing badges um
00:51:07 badges um supporting um I think somebody who was either on trial or
00:51:18 was either on trial or imprisoned and um I can't remember the name of that person but I have I do recall seeing um women wearing such badges at Women's Liberation conferences in fact hn
00:51:34 in fact hn 348 spoke in another report that there were lots of members of um the angry Brigade at the meeting which was absolute nonsense and a misunderstanding on her part because obviously members of the angry Brigade would not go around with badges on their jackets saying that they were members of the angry
00:51:48 they were members of the angry Brigade um but PE some women were wearing badges in support of a a trial of somebody or or the imprisonment yes I'm I as far as I can remember that was the case so an
00:52:02 remember that was the case so an affiliation with the anger Brigade may have been inferred from that sort of badge
00:52:03 badge wearing
00:52:10 yes um thank you with helping with that if we now move on and I think this is the meeting that you were um referencing earlier
00:52:16 earlier um a meeting in March 1971 where um a number of there are a
00:52:28 1971 where um a number of there are a number of features that are of concern to you can we have a look at ucpi 11741
00:52:30 11741 please tab 28
00:52:49 sir this um was a meeting where um in your statement you referenced the fact that that that people had been asked to prepare for this meeting this was a meeting an extraordinary meeting as we see in paragraph
00:53:06 see in paragraph 22 yes it went on for nine hours from half past 1 in the afternoon to half past 10 at night oh my god um and it was attended by 17 people
00:53:18 god um and it was attended by 17 people you identify in your statement surprise that the content of this report would have come from M from hm45 actually being present at this meeting and you surmise perhaps he's some detail from um discussions in the pub afterwards but
00:53:29 um discussions in the pub afterwards but if we just look at the detail it doesn't appear to be really quite detailed but your surprise comes from the fact that everybody who had attended was expected
00:53:42 everybody who had attended was expected to write a paper or or or come prepared to support their one way or the other because the meeting was ultimately to undermine Mr Man chand's leadership is that the point
00:53:52 point um the meeting hadn't been called to under mind his leadership in fact um you know the meeting the date of the meeting had been mutually agreed but it was it
00:54:03 had been mutually agreed but it was it was recognized that the organization was heading towards a split and this was an effort to try to resolve the differences that were there and and
00:54:16 that were there and and um regarding the source of the material that's in
00:54:17 that's in here um I've notice at the top it says normally says a reliable source but
00:54:33 says normally says a reliable source but in this um report it says a delicate but reliable source and that made me wonder exactly what was the source yes well um on the face of it it's it has hm45 Cipher as as as the
00:54:50 has hm45 Cipher as as as the attributable author at the end um and bear what you what you caveat as the likelihood of him being present in person or not um so somebody was able to calculate that there were 17 people there does that sound about the right number of people from your
00:55:08 number of people from your recollection it sounds a higher number than um I recalled but I accept that um he was counting or somebody was counting and and also I believe that
00:55:24 counting and and also I believe that people had come from um centry as well I I I haven't got the um the the list of the
00:55:27 the the people who were there on screen at the
00:55:33 the moment um well they're R in this copy um for privacy reasons yeah so so it probably would have been a higher number than the normal say 12 to 14 um then
00:55:44 than the normal say 12 to 14 um then there may have been you know uh other people who'd come from different um cities there were there were there was um there were some members in centry at
00:55:56 um there were some members in centry at the time and I think they were also Pres at this meeting and you were at somebody's home address um again so this wasn't a public meeting in that sense and the meeting had been arranged
00:56:10 and the meeting had been arranged according to paragraph three to quote cut down to size the organization leading personality a man chander whose offensive manner dogmatic attitude bullying techniques and general inefficiency have become too much for
00:56:29 inefficiency have become too much for even his admirers to swallow now you yes I've noticed yes in um type of language being used in in this sort of
00:56:40 being used in in this sort of report yes were of any members of the group having these sorts of views or expressing this sort of language um you've talked about division and and it becoming clear that there was a split would some people be heard hold him in this
00:56:52 regard well the split started to happened as a
00:57:06 well the split started to happened as a result of women becoming involved in the women's Liberation movement and holding their Partners to account for various misdemeanors and Manu and I
00:57:18 misdemeanors and Manu and I and maybe half of the group um were more enthusiastic about examining these matters
00:57:23 matters um and others were very um RI up and resentful that that personal Behavior
00:57:38 resentful that that personal Behavior was being criticized or questioned and so yes there were these sort of um divisions there but I I felt throughout reading hn 45's reports that he had almost a an
00:57:52 reports that he had almost a an obsessive way of writing about Manu his offensive manner dogmatic attitude bullying techniques in general inefficiency has become too much even
00:58:04 inefficiency has become too much even for his admirers to swallow well I mean that's just a totally um subjective view of the of the author
00:58:20 author um and why on Earth it would end up in a report that might possibly be going to um box
00:58:23 um box 500 uh
00:58:25 500 uh is absolutely baffling and cutting him down to size Etc I
00:58:40 mean these are rather all of these memories for me are very unpleasant and disturbing yes and when I read hn 45's reports and the way that he talked about Manu um his habit of something like
00:58:55 Manu um his habit of something like insufferable anecdotes about the baby Etc I feel um you
00:59:06 Etc I feel um you know very disturbed and such unpleasant stuff it's not about even about our politics it's about our personal um our personal lives and uh it's so intrusive and nasty so
00:59:17 nasty so petty the example I just don't understand how it's got into a report from somebody you know that's supposed to a serious operation
00:59:29 operation surely well if I just highlight another couple of examples if you if you um are able to bear with me Miss Langford of that sort of that attitude if if you can tolerate it um
00:59:42 tolerate it um yeah paragraph uh
00:59:56 five I seem to have lost that report we could just bring it back to the screen again please reference was 5 Z 11741 thank you thank you
01:00:08 um the um there's a reference in paragraph five second uh second line down the year the members of the rmll had become progressively dissatisfied
01:00:19 had become progressively dissatisfied with the general attitude of man chander um and and ultimately this meeting was saying that if the organization were to remain viable he should resign from his position as chairman and
01:00:31 position as chairman and secretary if we look further down at the top of paragraph six manchanda in his defense launched into a characteristic diet tribe against certain members of the rmll particularly privacy and
01:00:43 the rmll particularly privacy and privacy and spoke for two hours mainly spent in Reading from a prepared statement um the KN of his defense was that he had nothing to answer everything
01:00:54 that he had nothing to answer everything had he had done had been in the interest of the organization and the working class
01:00:58 class and if we just scroll down paragraph six a bit further
01:01:05 please he was having to on the face of it answer
01:01:11 it answer um answer criticisms that he hadn't been putting enough effort in and he said
01:01:22 putting enough effort in and he said there halfway down he'd felt constrained however to plead um ill health and reference to the birth of your child and that he um he felt that he'd recently acquired paternal his paternal status was in fact contributed to the present crisis whilst
01:01:35 contributed to the present crisis whilst his supporters agree that a proper pride in one's Offspring is understandable they consider that man chanda's constant stream of um privacy anecdotes is insufferable and they're not really convinced either of his claim that sending his wife to work while he stays
01:01:49 sending his wife to work while he stays at home is a quotes practical example of women's Liberation greates is entirely virtuous and it's reference there that he has to brush that aside allegations we'd see on the next page um to him
01:02:08 we'd see on the next page um to him being an enemy an enemy agent so this meeting um just pausing there this meeting
01:02:19 meeting was pre-thought out because Mr manchand had to come with a written defense and other people were reading from lengthy um criticisms and so is it is it your recollection that if somebody had been present in reporting this back at this meeting they would have been
01:02:32 at this meeting they would have been invited or included in on the face of it a relatively small group and in a circle and would have had to have come prepared with something in writing yes that's my impression I I
01:02:50 writing yes that's my impression I I just wanted to um go back to what I was speaking about a moment ago about the unpleasantness of this that um
01:03:02 unpleasantness of this that um he's written there something about um he showed his diabetic card I have a very strong memory of this meeting and exactly what happened in fact Manu had been
01:03:09 been um uh going around with undiagnosed diabetes Melius and his health was very poor and he actually fainted in that meeting and was laid out
01:03:21 fainted in that meeting and was laid out on the floor and um we had to give him a sugar cube or something to get his blood sugar back up and I remember that that
01:03:34 sugar back up and I remember that that and somebody said oh he's bluffing he's just
01:03:38 just bluffing that's how unpleasant this was and that's the context in which he showed his diabetic card to show people that he actually did have diabetes and he was having a a hypoglycemic attack so
01:03:55 he was having a a hypoglycemic attack so um so I'm just saying this so that I can demonstrate the bias in this reportage and there's a reference and
01:04:06 reportage and there's a reference and you're you would say that um the bias is revealed in in in another way when we I'll come onto that paragraph as well but just pointing out what you've just referenced there if we look on the
01:04:19 referenced there if we look on the screen now at paragraph eight at this stage manchanda said he was feeling unwell he refused privacy offer to adjourn the meeting and after some heat discussion manchanda said he was finished with the rmll and wish to have
01:04:32 finished with the rmll and wish to have nothing more to do with it and then and he then left the meeting so that's the that's the reference it had got that difficult and um and this was all being reported back uh to special branch in this
01:04:52 this yes was um paragraph seven an example of the uh women bringing criticisms and holding the men of their lives to account count in these public meetings was paragraph s an example of that can we have a look at this reference to somebody's morals being um
01:05:05 somebody's morals being um attacked uh paragraph seven followed a general discussion with privacy speaking in man chanda's defense previously read a copy of a letter she had previously
01:05:17 a copy of a letter she had previously sent to manchanda making a very personal attack on the private morals of privacy arising from an incident that had taken place some time previously this reduced privacy to
01:05:30 privacy to tears now you comment here that what is that this is on the face of it superficially dealing with what was a very significant allegation of a
01:05:44 very significant allegation of a criminal matter is that right yes that's right yes and in your statement this is in fact you recall an allegation of attempted rape by one female M group on a male member that's right and that is
01:06:01 a male member that's right and that is seed by um detective Constable 45 as a very personal attack on the private morals of that's correct and in fact the person accused used the expression she's too ugly to
01:06:18 rape which doesn't appear in this report in terms of
01:06:25 doesn't but it certainly was burned into my
01:06:30 my memory and the person who's um somebody else is obviously equally affected as they are reduced to tears we can see by the end of that paragraph
01:06:44 Yes um when you see this sort of uh par this sort of reporting
01:06:48 reporting um how does that make you feel I think you've given us a a clear indication of the fact that it's very difficult for you
01:06:55 you um I find it absolutely sickening that however he got the information by other being in the room or bugging our room or talking to
01:07:17 talking to disgruntled men who shared his kind of attitude towards women in Pub I feel absolutely disgusted absolutely second at paragraph 11 we see his um personal view Express
01:07:26 um if we just scroll down the
01:07:38 page and um he says there the informant's personal view is that whether or not manchanda is expelled the damage to the
01:07:49 manchanda is expelled the damage to the rmll is irreparable apart from manchanda there is no one with sufficient personality to hold the organization together and if his critics lose the
01:08:01 together and if his critics lose the Privacy day they have said too much for him to suffer their their continued presence so the ultimate output or or or take from this meeting was the continuation of the rml
01:08:13 meeting was the continuation of the rml how cohesive as a group it was and that was um that was what was effectively being communicated to special branch that the chances of this being a viable group going forwards and to do that there have been
01:08:26 forwards and to do that there have been 10 pages 10 paragraphs of of quite a lot of detail
01:08:32 of detail of private matters at a a private home
01:08:39 yes um you you were deal with um a suggestion that hm45 had um Babys set for you his recollection is that he had come into your home and looked after
01:08:53 come into your home and looked after your child yours Mr Man chanda's Child do do you recall that I find it absolutely outrageous that he would even make such a
01:09:09 suggestion did you um let anybody look at did you let anybody look after your child um were there babysitters that would come into the if anybody did um well Manu had a sister who who had Babys set on
01:09:19 set on occasions
01:09:24 occasions um you know there was another friend who used to um who who used to babysit for us and also when my my daughter was able to get into a local Nursery
01:09:35 Nursery um quite as quite a young baby because because of manu's illness when he was in hospital um we got a nursery place and
01:09:49 hospital um we got a nursery place and there was a young woman at the nursery who used to help with babysitting babysitting sometimes as well um but to your recollection it wasn't the Scottish Dave Robertson I just find it baffling
01:10:04 Robertson I just find it baffling absolutely baffling we would never left a young baby was someone we hardly
01:10:17 knew certainly not um this effectively now we see um by this period in 1971 was effectively the end of of of Mr Man chanda's leadership of the RM LL and
01:10:29 Man chanda's leadership of the RM LL and um we see the outcome of this meeting at a later report ucpi 10918 please tab 35
01:10:52 sir paragraph two the group has been reformed and will continue to be called the Revolutionary Marxist leninist League Abby Manu man chander who was General Secretary has been suspended from holding office and his financial aid I.E his small weekly salary and assistance with rent and
01:11:07 salary and assistance with rent and telephone bills has been withdrawn his wife danan Langford and privacy have also been suspended from RM LL
01:11:19 also been suspended from RM LL activities um again to be in this sort of position to have this sort of information
01:11:31 information um means that he must have been involved must he in voting on the uh outcome or involvement in influencing this this this group is that your surmised position it would be I mean there wouldn't have been anybody who would
01:11:43 wouldn't have been anybody who would have been in a sort of like a bystander role or
01:11:52 role or neutral that would have be just not possible at all because every um
01:12:01 every um you could say every every supporter of one side or the other was um was was you know we were was had to be very clear you know
01:12:12 were was had to be very clear you know whose side you were on what what stance you were taking in these discussions and you know over the issue of
01:12:19 of uh misogyny all of those things that we've already disced just a few minutes ago at paragraph four
01:12:34 ago at paragraph four um do we see a change of Direction in the absence of Mr Man chanda's leadership um there's going to be a change of Direction uh paragraph four prior to the split membership of the rmll was granted only after candidate
01:12:46 rmll was granted only after candidate membership of some six months had been satisfact fulfilled and this was what you were referring to earlier I think yes this has now been abandoned in the hope of attracting new new recruits the only requirement of membership now is
01:13:00 only requirement of membership now is that a person should be accepted by the other members together with a 12 and a half Pence Weekly
01:13:04 subscription
01:13:11 um we uh we know I think that you um contined to hold political instruction classes at your home address
01:13:22 instruction classes at your home address at 58 uh Lisbon Road under the will will women's Liberation from um head um is that your recollection yes it is in fact I think Mano had made a visit to India at some point or was in hospital or something and I I do
01:13:37 hospital or something and I I do remember that um it was I who was running those
01:13:43 classes yes
01:13:54 yes um you were did the uh friends of China and the bvsf group um continue as far as you recall I think they did but but those also um were difficult and
01:14:06 also um were difficult and um I think they were limping Along by that point yeah if we then look at um what's happening with the women's Liberation Front a little further on um by September
01:14:28 September 1971 um whilst the same sort of attitude seems to to be um pervading in terms of division and split and if we look at report
01:14:28 report ucpi
01:14:42 52721 uh this is a committee meeting um at a hall uh in uh Seven Sisters Road 17 people were present uh the meeting was ched by
01:14:56 present uh the meeting was ched by privacy who opened reading a prepared emergency
01:14:58 emergency resolution and this was
01:15:10 um this was effectively um in essence her statement in response to a defeated resolution which had been presented by privacy at an executive committee meeting four days earlier apparently the defeated resolution had accused privacy and privacy of rank
01:15:25 accused privacy and privacy of rank opportunism and secret sec arianism in having regularly produced the summer 1971 issue of women's Liberation privacy statement bitly attacked you Diane
01:15:37 statement bitly attacked you Diane Langford for having been negligent in her duties and of having ignored executive committee decisions and ultimately is this another example of of um division internal division in your
01:15:50 um division internal division in your group and ultimately a suspension of you and Mr Man chander and I think another person we see at the top of the the next page from the women's Liberation Front
01:16:03 yes was that division as far as you can tell um and the the different of approach was that um down to undercover policing as far as you can tell or was that a natural development of
01:16:28 thinking um it's very difficult to quantify because um I don't know exactly the extent of the undercover policing that was going on we don't really still know exactly how many undercover
01:16:40 know exactly how many undercover officers were actually involved because I do question um the deployment of hn
01:16:52 I do question um the deployment of hn 348 as being the only um woman who had infiltrated the women's Liberation movement for example but um I think it would have been a combination of the two obviously one or two votes would count in a in a meeting like
01:17:10 meeting like that and I think it was split down the middle so there we go and also we've already
01:17:16 already um you know just read uh the attitude of hn 45 and that he had clearly taken sides you could say let's just have a look at parag six on this report to deal with numbers and
01:17:34 voting this resolution was passed this is the resolution to suspend your membership and Mr Man chanders um was passed with 13 votes for none against and three abstentions and you were then
01:17:45 and three abstentions and you were then asked um to leave the meeting which you did we know that this was a report if we look right at the bottom of this page submitted by hn 348 so for her to be
01:17:58 submitted by hn 348 so for her to be present in reporting in this meeting she must have cast a vote I imagine so yes especially as she was later
01:18:04 was later elected
01:18:06 elected um I think as Treasurer yes there's a reference to um naming aandra which was her cover name yes um her cover
01:18:18 her cover name yes um her cover Christian name naming her um as elected Treasurer which was something she was asked about and and couldn't remember herself but didn't disagree that that might have happened and her election to that role um as Treasurer in fact within
01:18:34 that role um as Treasurer in fact within a month of this meeting um February 1972 was that
01:18:37 election
01:18:43 um by if I may I'll I'll draw sort of broader context I'm conscious that it's one minute to three I think I've probably got another 15 or 20 minutes that will um
01:18:56 15 or 20 minutes that will um comfortably fit into our next session but I H there are still a number of a small number of matters I'd like to deal with with you miss Langford if you can bear with us and so if that's a
01:19:08 bear with us and so if that's a convenient moment um we can move on to the next report after the Break um we will break now until quarter past 3 is that all right with you miss Ang yes that's fine thank
01:19:26 you ladies and gentlemen we will now take a break the time is 3:00 p.m. so we shall reconvene at 3:15 p.m. thank
01:34:25 welcome back everyone I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings
01:34:32 chairman M
01:34:40 wil thank you sir M Langford have you had an opportunity to settle after the
01:34:48 break thank you yes um May I just clarify uh two points so that um I I give you the opportunity um and make sure I'm dealing with everything as fairly as I can um the
01:35:01 everything as fairly as I can um the incident that we were just talking about in terms of um the the report that was of a very personal attack on private morals um it references the fact that this had been
01:35:15 references the fact that this had been in a letter um and it was aired at the meeting did anybody think about contacting the police at all to pursue this allegation any more broadly than it being raised in the
01:35:29 being raised in the meeting I think um back then um very few woman would contact the police as um we all knew we would be subjected to further [Music]
01:35:39 [Music] humiliation and um and one matter of further clarification really from my own um research just to assist you with that reference to soat I did it I quickly
01:35:50 reference to soat I did it I quickly looked up and there was a reference to a soat journal having been started in 1966 does that Accord at all with your recollection would would it doesn't I
01:36:06 recollection would would it doesn't I wasn't a member of soat I was a member of net soopa but later um there was a name
01:36:11 name change so a that might have been to the earlier um 1966 uh group perhaps I don't know it wouldn't have been because um well unless it was a stake you know
01:36:25 um well unless it was a stake you know it was some maybe he just thought it's a print
01:36:26 print Union maybe it's that I don't know I I have no idea all right um now we had got to
01:36:35 to um the end of 1971 and we were referencing the fact that um the women's Liberation Front became um under new leadership
01:36:50 became um under new leadership effectively with a different executive uh committee including uding an undercover officer and they changed their names to the name to the Revolutionary women's Union um more broadly in
01:37:03 Union um more broadly in 1972 there was um politically a shift between um in in relations between the US and China and there was a Rosal I
01:37:16 US and China and there was a Rosal I think it was known as um between those governments in 1972 such that the um there was a recognition of a two China
01:37:27 China policy and uh the in uh the inauguration of President Nixon in early
01:37:41 Nixon in early 1973 was uh deemed a helpful step on the political
01:37:42 political sphere but um we see in the reports that we have in early February
01:37:58 reports that we have in early February 73 that you were still Keen to campaign against that and if I just ask you to have a look at um ucpi 10247 please behind tab
01:38:27 43 this is a meeting of the Britain Vietnam solidarity front in January 1973 it's a private meeting um and the object of the meeting was to discuss arrangements made by the Indo China solidarity conference um at a
01:38:42 Indo China solidarity conference um at a previous at a meeting the previous night for the forthcoming demonstration against the inauguration of President Nixon on the 20th of January 1973 and the chairman of that uh group
01:38:54 1973 and the chairman of that uh group was Mr Manch chander and and you're also present at this meeting help us with your view about um the development and the relationship between the US and Chinese why were you having to um demonstrate against his
01:39:20 inauguration yes um Nixon's visit to China um was part of the international recognition of China in its own right and
01:39:25 and um and the general recognition that China needed to be a member of the International Community and a member of the United Nations um so that was a symbolic meeting
01:39:39 meeting um uh Nixon going to China in fact there was a wonderful Opera written about it however um the United States policy of aggression overseas did not see
01:39:51 aggression overseas did not see and in fact Nixon had launched carpet B
01:40:04 and in fact Nixon had launched carpet B bombing of Cambodia hence the necessity to um to relaunch a form of solidarity with people of Indochina not just Vietnam but also Cambodia and la which were under attack and um the Americans were
01:40:15 were launching
01:40:17 launching um uh attacks across the border into Cambodia which is tiny peaceful country
01:40:32 Cambodia which is tiny peaceful country run by a very Charming Man called Prince cuk um and in a very nonviolent culture
01:40:37 culture unfortunately terrible things happened the Americans carpet bombed that tiny country
01:40:49 bombed that tiny country and probably most of the bones that were found in The Killing Fields were as a result of that American bombing
01:40:54 bombing hence we carried on with our opposition to President
01:41:00 Nixon and the um we see in the the rest of that meeting um Arrangements being made this is an example of a very small group of people um being present if you just move on to the next page
01:41:21 please there are it's in fact at the first paragraph it says there was the chairman a man chander and five other persons were present we see there The Limited number of
01:41:34 number of names um and this is a report if we look at the last page on page
01:41:43 three right at the bottom where we see the officer's
01:41:49 identities
01:41:54 right at the bottom of this page please thank you um we see um certainly the contributors of this report appear to be two officers um Jill mosdale and hn 45 and so again this is another example
01:42:06 45 and so again this is another example of um undercover officers being part of very small groups of um of of activists um influencing steps and demonstrations
01:42:18 um influencing steps and demonstrations that were to take place yes I'd like to first of all comment about uh you would have noticed the name Digby
01:42:31 have noticed the name Digby Jacks yes there yes I believe he was the president of the national Union of students at the time and so obviously that was a meeting to coordinate um a
01:42:44 coordinate um a demonstration probably to try to estimate
01:42:49 estimate um or you know how many people would be contri would each group would be contributing to the demo and possibly to
01:43:01 contributing to the demo and possibly to decide um the order of the demonstration who would Mar in the front you know things like that um so
01:43:08 so uh yes it's it's um it would have been simply to maybe talk about stewarding which was often you know we
01:43:21 stewarding which was often you know we did have conversations with the police back in those days so um despite the the surveillance um well in fact there was
01:43:32 surveillance um well in fact there was no need for surveillance because we we did have regular meetings when we organized demonstrations where a root would be
01:43:38 would be agreed the order of the March would be agreed and that we would tell the police how many stewards we would be able to contribute Etc just us Within of this
01:43:53 contribute Etc just us Within of this meeting if there were few of you sort of four or five people sitting five or six How likely is it that somebody would say say nothing at all and just sit there that's highly unlikely obviously
01:44:06 there that's highly unlikely obviously this was a crucial meeting to decide um probably maybe the root of the March or to decide to have a meeting with the police to decide about the route to agree a route it looked to me like a
01:44:25 agree a route it looked to me like a meeting that would have been very much focused on the organization on the day thank
01:44:28 day thank you um can I deal now with two more matters that you particularly raise um in respect of hn 45 first um there is a a matter to do
01:44:40 45 first um there is a a matter to do with the banner Bookshop um there's a
01:44:55 with the banner Bookshop um there's a report in your pack um I don't think we need to turn it up it's a reference a report about Banner book books in uh 1970 let me just get the date 1970 um two and um it on the face of other documents hm45 ends up establishing a
01:45:13 documents hm45 ends up establishing a link or at least a job in Banner books it's a book shop in Camden and you're Keen to understand um why there isn't reference by um hn 45
01:45:27 um why there isn't reference by um hn 45 to a fire that took place ultimately and you recall that somebody died in a fire is that right that's my recollection um I think um we will raise that matter with um hn
01:45:43 um we will raise that matter with um hn 45 as far as you're concerned that was a a Bookshop in Camden run by a gentleman Mr bear
01:45:45 Mr bear beer
01:45:58 beer maure um and uh we will deal with that of course um what we're about to talk about now is the fact that hm45 was ultimately compromised in 1973 and um would no longer have been back in the field and I think there's reference to this fire perhaps having taken place somewhere in
01:46:14 taken place somewhere in 1975 just to assist um your I think your recollection was that it may have taken place somewhere in 1975 which of course would postdate this compromise
01:46:30 compromise so um if we now deal with the this this particular matter of um the meeting in February
01:46:37 February 1973 I ask to have ucpi 56247 up on the screen
01:46:49 please
01:46:53 now this is a report dated the 9th of
01:47:02 February and um let me just get the tab reference for um chairman it's tab 45 sir uh it's a
01:47:18 um chairman it's tab 45 sir uh it's a report dated the 9th of February about a meeting that had taken place on the 6th of February at the can you make that slightly could you make it slightly larger if possible yes thank you so much just a little bit that's that's perfect thank you uh it was a meeting at the CLA
01:47:32 you uh it was a meeting at the CLA Market building hton street is that uh part of the lsse University buildings yes it
01:47:38 yes it is and um it was a meeting between 7:30 and 9:30
01:47:40 and 9:30 pm and it was of the Indochina solidarity conference about 60 people were present and there was a joint chairmanship of the meeting if we can
01:47:52 chairmanship of the meeting if we can just scroll to the end of this uh report
01:48:07 please um where we see my mistake um page three please of the
01:48:17 report and we see the list of people present there we can see there's a reference to Ethel her surname has been redacted on privacy ground I'm sorry I don't see that I'm not looking I can't
01:48:28 don't see that I'm not looking I can't see that at all can we make it a little bigger oh I see I see now yeah I see thank you yes um and there's a reference your name appears forther down and Mr
01:48:40 your name appears forther down and Mr Man chanda's name appears as well yeah and
01:48:47 um if we go to page the bottom of page two please we can see the officers um identities that are contributing to this report so it's been submitt it's
01:49:07 report so it's been submitt it's submitted to the um Chief Inspector hn 294 and it has hm45 Cipher and a WDC Jill male's name written there as well um you you first wrote about an
01:49:18 well um you you first wrote about an incident to do with the compromise of um Dave Robertson as you knew him in a yes Memoir that you published as a Blog in
01:49:30 2015 and at in your witness statement you referenced the fact that that was
01:49:41 you referenced the fact that that was based on contemporaneous notes your your blog is that right yes yes it is do you still have those contemporaneous notes no I do have a lot of leaflets and
01:49:55 notes no I do have a lot of leaflets and stuff like that um but what happened was um after manu's death he left a huge amount of uh like an archive and I had to go through all of that mostly my my motive for doing that was to collect um material that he that
01:50:11 was to collect um material that he that he' inherited Claudia Jones's papers so I had like a double task of um of removing all that so that it could be archived and I eventually took that to the shanberg in New York
01:50:24 the shanberg in New York um however amongst uh the papers I found the document that we saw earlier um which had been signed off about the you know the literature that he'd read Etc um so I had found stuff like that
01:50:36 Etc um so I had found stuff like that and I had found notes that I had made in notebooks and Diaries and stuff um I had the intention of getting rid of a lot of these papers and in
01:50:47 these papers and in 2007 I wrote a dissertation at the University of Kent entitled The manchanda Connection which uh in which the same description uh is
01:51:04 the same description uh is incorporated so when I once I'd written it I did get rid of a lot of the contempor contemporaneous notes that i' I'd kept in fact I WR I wrote it with the objective of getting rid of a lot of
01:51:19 the objective of getting rid of a lot of papers that I had and consolidating them into a memoir
01:51:29 and that's what I did so um I'm very confident that um what I remember and what I
01:51:30 what I wrote is entirely accurate thank you and
01:51:42 accurate thank you and um if you referenc the contemporaneous one of the documents that you um have supplied to us which was you say contemporaneous at its time which was that document we saw um
01:51:50 saw um later earlier on today use CPI 50
01:51:59 34339 yes um and you wrote and there's a a manuscript entry on that referencing the fact that this man was found to be a
01:52:14 policeman that's correct and that just helping us there are some sticky notes written over yes stuck on over part of Ethel's Fuller name is that what you've done to supply it to the inquire I did I I have to say that when I was first
01:52:29 I have to say that when I was first contacted by someone from the undercover placing undercover research group um I
01:52:41 placing undercover research group um I at first refused to get involved because of my anxiety about um my friend being um possibly
01:52:54 later on I thought by yourselves as well and I've been very anxious about protecting her identity well we're not revealing her Sur name and neither are you but reference to the uh first name I think is is useful so that everybody
01:53:05 is is useful so that everybody understands who we're talking about and and certainly it was the name that you were happy to um help I did yes in the
01:53:17 were happy to um help I did yes in the and certain is in the blog in 2015 so if we on that basis um then hopefully that will be a sufficient basis help us um
01:53:32 will be a sufficient basis help us um with your recollection of the events um on that evening on the 6th of February 1973 uh you'd attended um with Mr Man chander and and Ethel and it was a meeting that appears to um have been about organizing demonstrations uh outside the Saigon government
01:53:48 government Embassy what do you all um happening H how h tell us what took place uh in terms of what Ethel said to hm45 and what you saw took place yes
01:54:00 place yes um first of all I want to make it absolutely clear in everybody's mind that Ethel was not an activist she was a workmate and someone I socialized with after work and so on we can take this
01:54:15 after work and so on we can take this report down now so we can concentrate on SL thank you yeah yes and and um I remember that Ethel had asked me if I'd like to go for a drink after work and I told her I was
01:54:28 a drink after work and I told her I was going to this meeting and she expressed some interest in it and came along and while we were sitting waiting for the meeting to start
01:54:41 start um Dave Robertson came into the room and my recollection is um we seem to be facing like a sort of a a double doors beside the PO Podium where the speakers were sitting waiting to
01:55:00 were sitting waiting to start and he came towards us and he took Ethel by the wrist and said we need to talk
01:55:06 talk outside at that point I'd already have suspicions about him as to whether he might be undercover because he told us
01:55:18 might be undercover because he told us two separate undercover stories one that he was working for the Tatty Bogle a club in SoHo I believe and the other one that he was um working for a Car Hire firm as we were suspicious as he was always driving
01:55:32 suspicious as he was always driving different cars had there been so when he came exchange between them before he took before you saw him take her outside have they nothing he came straight up to he came straight up to her and so so he came to her not her to him no but she
01:55:46 came to her not her to him no but she was seemed quite startled and surprised but not not horrified she seemed sort of very she said quite brightly I think um oh there's
01:55:57 oh there's Dave and she didn't say anything further and he came quickly over to her and sort of
01:56:05 of [Music]
01:56:12 [Music] um got hold of her by the wrist I believe
01:56:14 believe and kind of took control of her physically not necessarily not brutal way but that way that sometimes um overbearing men can do of sort of
01:56:27 overbearing men can do of sort of pulling you to your feet or something and he
01:56:28 and he said we have to talk outside and he still holding on to her led her out of the room and I didn't hear her say um the
01:56:41 room and I didn't hear her say um the words that um Dave Robertson has said that oh Scotland Yard have come I didn't hear anything like that I was very sort
01:56:53 hear anything like that I was very sort of bewildered and worried because of my anxiety about him possibly being undercover but at the same time I didn't know what their relationship was it
01:57:04 know what their relationship was it seemed like the sort of behavior that you would
01:57:05 you would only and you know have the sort of way of touching somebody that you would do with someone you knew very well and felt sort of in control
01:57:21 sort of in control of so I was wondering what on Earth is going on did you see her again that evening no did you see him again that evening
01:57:30 evening no did you go for the drink if you were expecting to go for a drink with um with Ethel and this meeting was um was was
01:57:42 Ethel and this meeting was um was was happening instead did you did you ever have the
01:57:50 drink uh I know we came straight from work and went to the meeting and I don't remember what time our work finished probably at 6:00 and the meeting started at 7:30 so she might we might have gone to the pub on the way to the meeting but after the meeting finished I went home
01:58:05 after the meeting finished I went home and I was worrying about you know Ethel and I thought I didn't have her home phone
01:58:07 phone number um so I was just sort of feeling anxious until I got to work the next day so I could ask her what on Earth was going on with
01:58:20 going on with Dave and she was very um yeah she didn't want to talk to me and you know I kept asking her what what on Earth is happening you know can you tell me and she said I can't talk
01:58:33 you tell me and she said I can't talk about it and then after a few days maybe a week she then said to me we need to talk and we did go for a drink and she told me
01:58:48 told me that Dave Robertson she knew from her he was a neighbor nebor in the flats and that people in the flats knew that um that this was a police house or police
01:59:02 police house or police flat she definitely told me it was a police flat and she knew him from there and that he had told her if she conveyed to myself and Manu that he was
01:59:18 conveyed to myself and Manu that he was undercover something nasty would happen to her family in [Music]
01:59:26 [Music] Ireland and you recall those that expression
01:59:38 yes the um where did you work together at the time you said you she she The Daily Mirror you were both working there at the Daily Mirror together
01:59:53 yeah um just so so that it's covered the um blog that you wrote in
02:00:01 2015 I'm just trying to find the specific reference references this incident as I as I mentioned it doesn't mention um there uh how she came to know
02:00:12 mention um there uh how she came to know him rather that uh she mentions what she said to you a week or so later about the um
02:00:23 um police about the about the threat and her family um is is the the um reference to your your handwritten note on the page that we saw earlier when was that
02:00:39 we saw earlier when was that written I believe that was probably written in 2007 or sorry
02:00:50 or sorry 20 20 yeah 2007 or 2015 I don't know which it would have been when I was when I had the idea of archiving things in my mind so that I wouldn't um
02:01:03 things in my mind so that I wouldn't um forget not that I would forget that but I was sort of marking up papers that I
02:01:12 had did you give Ethel any advice after what she told
02:01:20 you I asked her to let me know if she saw him again and
02:01:34 um she told me that she hadn't seen him since the meeting either I believe so um I couldn't give her any advice I don't know what advice I could have given her it's not the sort of thing you go to the police about say hey a policeman's threatened
02:01:47 threatened me and did you see him again never
02:02:00 but eth and I did remain friends for quite a while after that and I actually went to her
02:02:08 wedding um miss lford you have um pointed to during the course of your statement a number of use examples of the use of language which you you consider reflect
02:02:25 language which you you consider reflect a sexist and racist attitude at the time and those are and homophobic and homophobic um in the reports that you have seen and you have clearly set those out in your um witness statement and you'd like to hear an explanation for some of the
02:02:37 hear an explanation for some of the language used in those reports um if an officer is able to deal with that and we we will um certainly use some of those
02:02:51 we will um certainly use some of those examples but can I now deal with um the overall impact of your Discovery um of this extent of policing and the reporting on your life you deal with
02:03:02 reporting on your life you deal with this at your paragraph 20 269 to 271 of your witness statement where you reference your shock and uh being repelled by the racist and homophobic and misogynist language that you see in the reports and you reference a sense of
02:03:21 the reports and you reference a sense of violation when reading the reports guilt for unknowingly allowing hn 348 to spy on the women's Liberation movement and a feeling of being gaslighted in particular particular that a woman a woman uh who you trusted had
02:03:41 a woman a woman uh who you trusted had violated your family space when you were just trying to improve conditions for women's lives
02:03:53 women's lives generally through the yes and your work um that is very clear clear and um and Frank explanation of your feelings is there anything beyond that that you would like to identify in terms of the impact that this the UN the discovery of undercover policing on yours and your then husband's life had on
02:04:16 you well I felt very anxious and I feel very anxious as I've said before about the identification of Ethel I my anxiety was such that I feel even now somebody could approach her and threaten
02:04:32 somebody could approach her and threaten her so there was that underlying anxiety but also the impact of having to go through all those reports and read those vile
02:04:39 vile remarks I found really debilitating and has taken a toll on my health and well-being but I've also felt extremely
02:04:59 extremely upset um that the suggestions been made that we shouldn't judge these comments and prejudices by today's standards because in fact um you know whose standards are we talking
02:05:10 whose standards are we talking about know people have different standards I feel that on one side there is the the sort of people who to my mind are like to the St who was spying on us and um
02:05:23 us and um who may have even encouraged people to to spy on each other like the stars he
02:05:36 to spy on each other like the stars he did and to act as informants within our organizations I feel disgusted that people are being expected to um to accept that the standards of today
02:05:52 to accept that the standards of today are any better than the standards of of the past and in fact in some respects the standards of the past were much better
02:06:00 better because it shows that the the bias of uh the attitudes that we're supposed to forget about Claudia Jones Martin Luther King dag
02:06:10 King dag hammerhal James
02:06:20 Baldwin Paul robon Langston Hughes all those people were alive and active at that
02:06:23 that time they
02:06:25 time they weren't discusting racists and homophobes so I mean we had the universal Declaration of Human
02:06:39 Rights these were established standards of the day I can't imagine anybody sitting down who's in an establishment position today and writing the univers ival Declaration of Human
02:07:01 ival Declaration of Human Rights so I feel very let down and that feel that things have been going backwards and hence I have
02:07:07 have very profound feelings of disappointment in the inquiry about the issues which I raised in my witness statement regarding anonymity and so forth I find it very distressing and really cynical and
02:07:22 distressing and really cynical and hypocritical that I've been asked about the issues of violence when we're living in a society where people are still being killed because of the color of their
02:07:42 skin Mrs Langford thank you very much and um we have your very full and very clear witness statement in which you have repeated the questions that you asked and given extremely thorough answers for it and that as I say will
02:07:55 answers for it and that as I say will stand as your evidence in conjunction with everything you've told us about today thank you very much so that concludes the questions I have I know there is a process in place I think um for any other matters that might be ABS that may need to be covered um May I let
02:08:13 that may need to be covered um May I let those involved in dealing with the rooms and the technical uh Wizardry help with what we do next before we have any Technical wiry and I just say something to Mr Langford um M Langford thank you for attending and giving evidence it's not an easy experience I know um I'm
02:08:29 not an easy experience I know um I'm grateful to you for doing it uh your um time is not quite finished your own Council has the right to re examine you uh if that is thought necessary and it may be that others have questions
02:08:47 may be that others have questions arising out of the evidence that you've given which they would like to raise with councel of the inquiry and that requires us to break for 10 minutes while they think about that and
02:09:01 minutes while they think about that and discuss it amongst themselves I have um uh two things to say to you personally first of all I'm afraid I was responsible for describing you as the Widow of the late manual manchanda um I thought I was doing no more than
02:09:13 thought I was doing no more than identifying you so that others would be prompted to remember you uh if that caused events I apologize um secondly
02:09:27 caused events I apologize um secondly you told us that you have destroyed the note uh that you made uh of the events which occurred on the uh night in February when hm45 Dave Robertson was
02:09:42 Robertson was recognized uh by Ethel uh and you say that you um got rid of them uh along with a whole lot of other material when you wrote your dissertation into which you Incorporated them do you by any
02:09:55 you Incorporated them do you by any chance have a copy of your dissertation so that that I do part of it so that small part of it I don't one moment wish to see all of it but if if you can
02:10:06 to see all of it but if if you can identify that small part and provide it to the inquiry be grateful certainly thank you um we'll all now break for 10 minutes I'm so sorry we went first of all um is it Miss cman uh will uh uh
02:10:18 all um is it Miss cman uh will uh uh asked you questions which have Arisen out of the evidence that you've given by way of reexamination if she has any I think it's Miss C isn't it or I misidentified your your
02:10:32 Council yes it is m m kman yes
02:10:43 yes indeed it is um yes I'm so sorry I didn't quite catch um uh what you said there sir um was it your attention that if I have any reexamination I ask questions now or I do that um in light
02:10:56 questions now or I do that um in light of any questions that might be asked by any of the other parties I'm very much in your hands you you may take whichever course you prefer I'd rather see whether or not any further questions are going to be asked by any other core participants and then to to to wrap up
02:11:12 participants and then to to to wrap up as it were certainly we'll do that and in that event we will break for 10 minutes to let them raise anything that they may wish to 10 minutes thank
02:11:27 you good afternoon everyone we will now take a break the time is 3:50 p.m. so we shall reconvene at 4 p.m. for those in the virtual hearing room please remember to join your breakout rooms thank
02:11:47 you
02:18:46 all
02:19:16 for
02:19:25 welcome back everyone I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you very much M Wilson can I ascertain whether the have been
02:19:38 can I ascertain whether the have been any questions asked of council for the inquiry which may be put to miss Langford
02:19:40 Langford before Miss cman reexamined no they haven't so we've had no Communications in that front thank you m
02:19:51 in that front thank you m Happ um so in light of that uh there is nothing that I would wish to reexamine uh Miss Langford on thank you very much um we will now break until 4:30 the
02:20:04 um we will now break until 4:30 the reason we're having a long break is that uh our next witness Dr Temple is giving evidence from Vancouver and it's rather early in the morning there and it's not fair to ask him to start before what I think for him is
02:20:15 think for him is 7:30 thank you very much until
02:20:27 4:30 we will now take a break the time is now 4 p.m. so we shall reconvene at 4:30 p.m. thank
02:20:46 you
02:46:44 e
02:49:27 good afternoon everyone and welcome back I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman thank you Dr Temple can you hear me yes I can hear you thank you I
02:49:41 hear me yes I can hear you thank you I hope it's not too early in the morning for you um it is 8:30 in the morning here in
02:49:42 here in Vancouver greetings from Canada thank you um and thank you for
02:49:53 Canada thank you um and thank you for providing with statement to the inquiry and for to give evidence I don't know whether you wish to be sworn or to affirm um affirm then may that happen now
02:50:05 please good afternoon Dr Temple can you see good
02:50:11 see good afternoon afternoon can you see and hear me yes I understand that you would like to affirm
02:50:13 to affirm correct
02:50:15 correct thank you please repeat after me I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare I do solemnly
02:50:28 do solemnly sincerely sorry H can you repeat that sorry certainly I do solemnly sincerely I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and truly declare and
02:50:42 truly declare and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth
02:50:54 truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you Dr Temple chairman thank you in a moment I'm going to ask Mr Bar Council the inquiry to ask questions of you um there will be a
02:51:05 questions of you um there will be a 10minute break in the middle of your evidence because it is being transcribed and the short handw writers need that break I with us yes Mr
02:51:37 B they appear to have a momentary hitch is momentary Mr
02:51:43 bar
02:52:13 for
02:52:27 second Junior in Council to the inquiry has fixed it I'm very grateful to him I hope that you now realize is your turn to ask
02:52:38 realize is your turn to ask questions Dr Temple uh could you confirm your full name please yes Norman Joseph Temple You've provided a witness state m to the inquiry dated the 3rd of March 2020 are the are the contents of that
02:52:51 2020 are the are the contents of that witness statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they
02:53:00 yes they are you tell us that you were in the late
02:53:04 late 1960s a young man in London involved in the politics of the day correct and that you were at that stage in your life a maist correct and could
02:53:21 in your life a maist correct and could you in very briefly uh tell us what that meant to you in terms of your political aims and
02:53:23 aims and objectives well um 1967 um the Vietnam War started becoming very intense and there was major
02:53:39 very intense and there was major activities around the world at the same time there were protests on everything really probably the origin of everything is San Francisco you have the civil rights movement in the mid
02:53:54 rights movement in the mid 60s that um in San Francisco you have the hippies women's Liberation Gay Liberation it started from there then Vietnam blew up and there were protests all around the world and it extended it
02:54:15 all around the world and it extended it morphed into very general activities of many times you've got Ireland had uh was specific to uh Britain and Northern Ireland there were activities in Britain with reference to Ireland France had a major Uprising in May
02:54:29 Uprising in May 1968 and there were just many different activities in many different countries but it was a general leftwing activity lots of overlap anti-apartheid was uh one aspect of it so I became
02:54:43 was uh one aspect of it so I became involved D Vietnam was the focus at first then I decided okay it's um the whole system so I became very sympathetic to the idea of Communism of
02:55:06 sympathetic to the idea of Communism of which there were two main factions there was a pro Soviet Union and pro-in China plus there was also the Tris so three big
02:55:07 big factions I oriented towards the pro-chinese or Mau as were sometimes referred to um and uh it was there's a slightly
02:55:22 um and uh it was there's a slightly derogatory term called rent a mob where you may just some people stayed with one specific organization some had a focus on Ireland others on gay rights other
02:55:38 on Ireland others on gay rights other people on anti-apartheid I was what you might call rent a mob floating revolutionary I was supporting everybody thank you um you've tell told us in your witness statement that you
02:55:57 us in your witness statement that you were the member of a pro- Chinese maist group can you tell us which group that was please oh God uh we things were jumping around so 1969 um let's see I was in a very small group in
02:56:07 group in 1967 uh for a few months 6768 then there was Vietnam solidarity that's the one where manand was in the
02:56:19 that's the one where manand was in the leadership so there was one group that was more Trot that was T Ali and we were the man shander was the most prominent person there was also
02:56:31 most prominent person there was also Nick Bateson who was a professor at the London School of economics and uh we organized a Vietnam demonstration there was a big one a huge one with a 100,000 people that was a
02:56:47 one with a 100,000 people that was a high point that was was September 1968 in fact Bill Clinton I was on it Bill Clinton was on that demonstration he was a road scholar in Oxford at the time so that was 68 then we go into
02:57:01 that was 68 then we go into 1969 and um some people factionalism was
02:57:13 1969 and um some people factionalism was endemic they were just splitting all the time everybody hated everybody um so early
02:57:15 early 1969 I got fed up with manchanda for different reasons which I won't bore you with
02:57:26 with and um we the next demonstration was going to be M it was like every six months so March 69 man the there were three demonstrations in London on
02:57:45 three demonstrations in London on Vietnam the Tris had their one manchanda was organizing one and then I had met some other people and we organized a separate one so there were three in March
02:57:46 March 1969 so I together with other people organized a demonstration we were in
02:57:59 organized a demonstration we were in traela square and March to the American Embassy and that was separate from manchanda later on I was in other organizations I can go through that if
02:58:11 organizations I can go through that if you want to know about that no not just at the moment um so when you organized the March 1969 demonst ation um can you did your did your group have a
02:58:19 have a name um well the the generic name
02:58:30 name um well the the generic name everybody would use is the date of the organization um then Latin ad hoc organizing committee so your demonstration is shall we say April the 21 so the April the 23 21st Vietnam
02:58:45 21 so the April the 23 21st Vietnam solidarity ad hoc organizing committee it was a generic name like that I see and in terms of the demonstration to the American Embassy that you organized did you cooperate with the police in organizing that and tell them when you
02:58:59 organizing that and tell them when you were going to March and where you were going to March yes I went to um uh Scotland Yard with another person and we had a meeting with some senior police officers and we agreed on the
02:59:16 officers and we agreed on the route and uh when the demonstration took place was there any disorder um a little bit um we went to
02:59:28 disorder um a little bit um we went to uh at the end after leaving the American Embassy we marched down uh what's the main road going from um the main road on the side of hi Park going from Marble
02:59:40 the side of hi Park going from Marble Arch to Notting Hill gate we're going down that road and we passed the raw Lancaster Hotel H and um uh it had an
02:59:52 Lancaster Hotel H and um uh it had an American flag outside it and there was like a spontaneous attack on the American flag just pulling it down um no
03:00:03 American flag just pulling it down um no not violent but uh you can it would come under the general heading of disorder low very lowlevel disorder nobody was
03:00:16 low very lowlevel disorder nobody was injured nothing serious did people get arrested uh sub quent not at the time but
03:00:18 but subsequently uh three people were arrested myself and two others there was a trial I was
03:00:29 a trial I was acquitted one person basically on his own evidence the magistrate it was pretty minor um the charge was not
03:00:45 pretty minor um the charge was not public disorder the charge was theft on the grounds of attempting to steal an American flag which they said had a value
03:00:46 value of10
03:00:48 of10 um uh I was acquitted I see and you say that disorder was spontaneous yes so um did you as
03:01:08 spontaneous yes so um did you as organizers take a line one way or the other as to how people joining your demonstration should behave uh not specifically um demonstrate s had a habit of turning into something of a riot outside the American
03:01:22 riot outside the American Embassy um there were it turned into riots it was like a like a gigantic pushing match between the demonstrators and the police the big one was
03:01:38 and the police the big one was 1968 um there was probably 20,000 people in groa square outside the American Embassy that was very large uh the others were much smaller but um nobody was really injured it was no it we're
03:01:59 was really injured it was no it we're not talking Island type activity we're talking gentil English type activity very low level at the bottom end of violence I see and so if you participated in the 27th of October 1968 demonstration it there were two routs there was a route that the main body
03:02:11 there was a route that the main body took to hide Park and the route that a number of maoists and anarchists took to
03:02:24 number of maoists and anarchists took to grova square uh did you were you on that March and if so which route did you follow I for um to do with people I was linked up with went hik at first but the main Mau
03:02:41 with went hik at first but the main Mau slot went straight to um uh groer square but I was in groer square as well on that day and can did you as an eyewitness to that then give us an indication of the level of violence that you witnessed in groer square on the 27th of October
03:02:52 27th of October 1968 well uh as an eyewitness very little I think the main thing that happened before I arrived I saw it on
03:03:06 happened before I arrived I saw it on TV um there was a police line oh maybe 10
03:03:10 10 Deep uh something like that uh this is my recollection mainly from the TV coverage I wasn't there at that moment um it was the largest I'd ever seen so
03:03:21 um it was the largest I'd ever seen so probably the police were about 10 Deep their line nearly got broken it was so big and um that was outside the American
03:03:35 big and um that was outside the American Embassy but I'm basing that on TV I came a bit
03:03:39 a bit later I see I'm going to move on now to the Palestine or the Palestinian solidarity campaign and you've told us you had some involvement with that um
03:03:55 you had some involvement with that um we've provided you with two documents to look at to refresh your memory um the first is about a protest against the spread of Zionism I my question to you about that is that typical of the sort of demonstration that the PSC would organize well not typical that was a
03:04:14 organize well not typical that was a high point so we're talking May 1969 and
03:04:23 and um that was really when Palestine burst on the scene and became one of those international issues like uh anti-apartheid and Vietnam the first time uh anybody sympathetic to the
03:04:36 time uh anybody sympathetic to the Palestinians had been involved in any activity to my knowledge was on the Vietnam demonstration I organized in
03:04:50 Vietnam demonstration I organized in March 196 69 so we had lots of different people spoke at our rally in trafala square including some who were Pro Palestinian we maintain contact with them and then a pro Palestine
03:05:03 them and then a pro Palestine organization was created at that time Palestine solidarity campaign it was formed in the uh part of the American uh sorry Egyptian embassy which was next
03:05:16 sorry Egyptian embassy which was next door I don't know if you're aware of the old MI5 building in Mayfair uh part of the Egyptian embassy is across the road from the old MI5 building if you you probably don't know what I'm referring to um well we used to
03:05:30 what I'm referring to um well we used to hold our meetings in there so there were lots of delegates from lots of different organizations there and we organized uh this and we had this
03:05:43 organized uh this and we had this demonstration that was by far their high point of
03:05:45 point of activities May 1969 and so could you give us a a representative example what what would have been more a more typical uh protesting activity of the
03:05:56 protesting activity of the PSC um well after that it just became weaker and weaker doing less and less
03:06:10 weaker and weaker doing less and less and not very much at all so um it really started um I think in some of the document buried somewhere it talks about it sometime later Nick baton and um
03:06:22 it sometime later Nick baton and um forgot the other guy is an Iraqi person
03:06:33 forgot the other guy is an Iraqi person um um it they were trying to keep going but it was really running out of steam talk about rather than start generalizing it
03:06:44 about rather than start generalizing it would be much more accurate to say there was this big activity it started with a big bang with this big activity there was a demonstration in trafala square
03:06:56 was a demonstration in trafala square May 69 many thousands of people Full of Life full of activity but then it started
03:07:02 started slowly um deflating after that to your recollection was there any public disorder at the May 1969 March not that I
03:07:09 I recall uh was that typical of the PSC was it was it um causing disorder or not no it was not causing disorder
03:07:29 no it was not causing disorder n um you've seen in the documents that your membership of the Kensington and Paddington branch of the PSC was
03:07:31 PSC was recorded right by the SDS uh is it right that you were a member of that
03:07:42 member of that Branch it would be more accurate to say I was the branch so the PSC had membership and then they were trying to organize into
03:07:57 organize into branches and um based on geography where you lived so I was living in nutting Hill so I was given the that region Kensington and around there and um I tried to organize some people but that
03:08:18 tried to organize some people but that was turned out to be futile so really it was on paper it was a branch of the PSC in reality it was more like nothing I see maybe we should just have a look at that document could we have up please
03:08:27 please ms-07
03:08:28 ms-07 39
03:08:30 39 227 which sir is tab one in your
03:08:44 bundle do I click on something no you don't have to do anything Dr Temple come up right okay right for the benefit of people who can hear these proceedings but not see them I'm going to read it out read out paragraph one it's a report dated the 17th of June 1970 it reads the following received
03:08:59 1970 it reads the following received from a reliable but delicate source is a list of the current membership of the Kensington and Paddington branch of the Palestine solidarity campaign some of
03:09:12 Palestine solidarity campaign some of the names and addresses are followed by the members employment Andor telephone number
03:09:13 number attached at appendix a are copies of each individual's membership card and if
03:09:25 each individual's membership card and if we could scroll down now please until we come to Norman Temple's name I think it's on the second
03:09:36 page right in the middle there if we could um blow that up please and so we have to protect people's privacies redacted out everybody else's name that you'll see there Dr temple in the middle of the page reads Norman Temple 62 Kensington Park Road
03:09:48 Kensington Park Road w11 and then bracket 727 4589 close
03:10:03 w11 and then bracket 727 4589 close brackets that would be your telephone number would it right um what's your reaction to learning that your membership of this organization recorded and filed away I have no idea where they got hold of this got hold of the names of the
03:10:15 of this got hold of the names of the other people I have no idea how they got hold of it so I would have been it could have come more centrally maybe somebody was operating within the Palestine
03:10:30 was operating within the Palestine solidarity campaign itself so they would have had all the names and um addresses that was pass to me the ones in my area Kensington were passed to me I Tred to turn it into a branch
03:10:47 I Tred to turn it into a branch but nobody was there was no enthusiasm nobody wanted to be involved or do anything and that was really the end of
03:10:59 anything and that was really the end of it that is why I moved over to Davin and the in lsf because this activity was achieving nothing um my best guess is would be that how did the police get hold of this they
03:11:12 did the police get hold of this they must have got it centrally from the C control
03:11:14 control PSC if I could just stop you there Dr Temple that wasn't quite my question we know we know that the name that's redacted at the bottom of the detective inspector hn
03:11:28 inspector hn 294 was a manager in the special demonstration Squad uh so our understanding is this is reporting that's come from the special demonstration Squad uh my question to you was what's your reaction to learning
03:11:43 you was what's your reaction to learning that your details had been recorded like this uh somewhat
03:11:50 surprised and why is that well I had no idea that they were taking so much interest in me with respect to the Palestine solidarity
03:12:02 Palestine solidarity campaign um that they would be so interested in it in retrospect my guess is that um uh um you like all the cameras that are up all
03:12:13 like all the cameras that are up all over Britain like the smoke detector in in people's houses you pull it up there just in case something might happen so
03:12:24 just in case something might happen so they they know what's going on in case something might happen I just assume that was their thinking on the subject Palestine
03:12:35 Palestine Ireland um we better find out what these people are up to in case they do something a bit naughty I'm going to ask for that
03:12:46 naughty I'm going to ask for that document to be taken down now please and could we have up in its stead mps-1
03:12:52 mps-1 0569 now Dr Temple this is a report on the psc's second annual conference and I use it to ask you a few
03:13:04 conference and I use it to ask you a few as a basis of asking you a few questions about the organization in a little bit more detail
03:13:14 right that was
03:13:16 that was mps-1
03:13:19 mps-1 0569 said tap six of your bundle
03:13:47 sir well I've got a massive documents here on my desk uh okay I I was reading it last last night so I think I I know it's what you're referring to since since we seem to have a a problem pulling the document up what I will do is I will read read the relevant passages the the first thing I wanted to draw to your attention was the
03:14:07 draw to your attention was the membership numbers and at the bottom of the first page it reads the registered membership of the PSC last year was 800 1971 registrations were being renewed very slowly and it was thought
03:14:19 renewed very slowly and it was thought that membership would not be as high as last year it does that give us a fair indication of the size of the PSC probably um paper membership is just
03:14:33 probably um paper membership is just it's like people joining a gym or going on a diet you know it's a statement of um
03:14:34 um um intention and maybe deluded thinking at the moment a statement of yes I agree
03:14:46 at the moment a statement of yes I agree with it so I put myself down as a member like the labor party and the conservative party have hundreds of thousands of members most of whom do absolutely nothing it's more like that I
03:15:00 absolutely nothing it's more like that I see um over the page the report tells us that the PSC had 20 branches throughout the country principally in universities and
03:15:12 and colleges um yeah goes on aha we got the document lovely thank you very much uh so I was reading from the very top of the page right going on to subparagraph three it then says 10 organizations were Affiliated to the PSC of whom the majority were Arab student
03:15:28 majority were Arab student organizations with the exception of cpgb ML
03:15:31 cpgb ML bvsf and the international socialists so yes that is if I if I'm understanding it correctly two maist and one tropski groups yeah yes uh uh
03:15:45 groups yeah yes uh uh cpg cpg ml is certainly maest International socialists are certainly
03:16:00 International socialists are certainly trk um bvsf is uh yeah I think they're the
03:16:02 the guys I'm not sure we understand that to be the Britain Vietnam solidarity front okay in that case I I don't know
03:16:15 okay in that case I I don't know who they are if you can't assist us it doesn't matter uh right Dr Temple um further on um down the at the bottom of paragraph seven
03:16:33 please in the last sentence we see a reference to you which reads Norman Temple also proposed a resolution expressing solidarity with the oppressed people of Ireland can you remember that
03:16:44 people of Ireland can you remember that right now what was remind me of the date of this um document the the document is dated the 11th of February 1971 and it's the conference date was the 6th of February
03:16:55 February 1971 okay so what this means is we organized that big activity in um May 1969 then we tried to do things and
03:17:13 1969 then we tried to do things and build on it and make it active so late 69 going into
03:17:24 69 going into 1970 it was as I said before deflating running out of steam nothing going on and then um that's around August 1970 that's when I S got into contact
03:17:37 1970 that's when I S got into contact with Davin and the Irish IR lsf so as part of being in the in lsf um I was still in contact with the PS C so by now
03:17:53 PS C so by now my um interest activity with the Irish group so I would have gone to the PSC and um mentioned Ireland that is the logic there thank you uh looking right
03:18:10 logic there thank you uh looking right at the very bottom of the page it reads the three unsuccessful candidates were privacy Norman Temple and Abby Manu manchanda and a reference to the elections to the executive committee of the PSC can you recall standing unsuccessfully for that
03:18:25 recall standing unsuccessfully for that committee yes the uh that was a tactical error on my part because many of the people were from outside London and you had to get people who knew people who had credibility and influence to say
03:18:36 had credibility and influence to say this is a good guy vote for him I didn't um campaign properly effectively so that is why I was not elected I could have
03:18:47 is why I was not elected I could have been had I uh gone about it the right way if we can scroll if we can scroll down to the next page we'll see what the um officer who made this report um has
03:19:02 um officer who made this report um has written that because at paragraph 10 it
03:19:15 written that because at paragraph 10 it reads the bvsf and cpb ml tried hard to assert their influence on the PSC but they were largely unsuccessful since neither organization is popular with the Arab members man chander had attended
03:19:28 Arab members man chander had attended the meeting in the express hope that he and his organizations might gain some control of the on the executive committee that the only votes which he and privacy redaction gained were from members of his own
03:19:39 members of his own group um yes what what's your reaction to that uh yeah my reaction to that is yes um
03:19:54 yes um uh organizations tend to think they are the the one true organization that understands the world and everybody should follow their leadership so you have what in leftwing circles is
03:20:10 have what in leftwing circles is sometimes called a a broad front um so you have your central organization and you want to extend your influence so you can join another organization in the labor
03:20:19 labor party I'm sure everybody remembers militants infiltration that sort of thing it's the same sort of thing that would be a well-known example the militant group infiltrating the labor
03:20:30 militant group infiltrating the labor party so this is man chander who just was a tiny little group of half a dozen people um to try to EXP SP their
03:20:49 people um to try to EXP SP their influence um Vietnam Palestine it didn't really matter much just to try to gain some
03:20:53 some influence boost his own importance to some extent that now the cpml was basically doing the same thing the people on the previous page Nick Bateson and um faaz whatever his name
03:21:08 Bateson and um faaz whatever his name was they were from the cpb ml so they were the people that really had a large degree of control within the PSC they were being very successful man Chanda
03:21:23 were being very successful man Chanda people were pretty much sick and tired of him and um he had very little
03:21:31 influence thank you um we can take that document down now please uh those are all my questions about the PSC and we can now move on to the in
03:21:43 can now move on to the in lsf the Irish National Liberation solidarity front you tell us that you first attended a meeting in September 1970 how did you come to know about that
03:21:59 1970 how did you come to know about that meeting and to be able to attend it well somebody I knew from uh Mau type activities told me about it it was uh he
03:22:16 activities told me about it it was uh he said hey these guys are doing this thing that was the worst bit of information I was ever given in my life I think I'm still in recovery to be honest um um yeah these things um sometimes something happens to you many many years ago and it affects you for many many
03:22:40 ago and it affects you for many many years um but there we are uh so I went along to this meeting in their Pub in Paddington and then I became very actively involved in it in short order and uh was this a group that advertised its meeting or its meetings
03:23:00 advertised its meeting or its meetings or did you need to join By Invitation as you did no anybody could turn up that's how Alex Sloan got in and before him there was another person called Jackson
03:23:01 Jackson um uh so Alex Sloan became involved early 1971 before him there was another
03:23:20 early 1971 before him there was another person called Jackson and don't know why his name never gets mentioned in these documents I've given it to Daphne she knows about him so he was already a member but he turned out he was certainly with the police and he was already a member when I joined anybody
03:23:32 already a member when I joined anybody can come walking in there and they were more than happy to see anybody who wanted to turn up and um they then got Davin is a very very he's charismatic and he's a strong organizer and then they started
03:23:45 organizer and then they started producing newspapers and selling it in the pubs and by that means they got more and more people involved in it okay um I'm going to ask you about where the meetings were held you've told us that
03:23:57 meetings were held you've told us that you the first meetings you went to were in a in a room above a pub in Paddington did there come a time when the group
03:24:08 did there come a time when the group moved its meetings from from a from a room in a pub to Ed Dean flat no not quite um the meetings there was a general General membership meeting
03:24:24 was a general General membership meeting which took place every week that was for anybody and everybody anybody who felt like it was welcome to turn up there and sit in at the meeting um so that was General
03:24:36 meeting um so that was General membership that's where Alex Sloan would go and
03:24:42 go and um uh that's how he got involved then there
03:24:52 there was uh well to answer your question I'll answer it with davon's flatting gold as green I'll answer it in two separate ways there was an inner group who ran things from the inside they didn't advertise this is the
03:25:03 they didn't advertise this is the organizing committee normally you'd have a any organization any political organization would have an organizing committee it would all be above board they would be elected the chairman the
03:25:15 they would be elected the chairman the and whoever else and but they didn't do it that way they had an internal organizing committee who were in charge I was invited to join this after two or three weeks and we would have our
03:25:29 three weeks and we would have our meetings in dav's flat in gold as green that was Invitation Only and we were
03:25:40 that was Invitation Only and we were organizing everything separate from that we would um be producing the newspaper so we would invite people to come and help so we needed help it's labor intensive uh so Alex Sloan mentions going to the flat he wouldn't have been going there to do any
03:25:54 going there to do any organization to give his opinion well let's do this next week why don't we organize a demonstration now he would not have been involved in that but rather helping with um producing a
03:26:08 rather helping with um producing a paper I see I'm just going to come back to um how public believe was because I've got got two documents which don't which to us seem quite difficult to
03:26:27 which to us seem quite difficult to reconcile and you may be able to help us so I'll ask you the question after I've shown you both documents the first is MPS
03:26:30 d739
03:26:37 490 490 okay
03:26:40 490 okay right I didn't read that this morning okay 490 it'll come up in in in a moment I'm having to give the full numbers to the people who are working the equipment
03:27:05 yeah so this is tab
03:27:11 13 um if we I'm looking at paragraph four of this document it's a report dated the 21st of April 1971 and I'm I'm interested in the second half of that
03:27:24 interested in the second half of that paragraph which paragraph paragraph four I'll read it out for the transcript yeah the relevant bit says he said that from next Sunday the meetings would be held
03:27:40 next Sunday the meetings would be held in the halfway house Public House Camden town
03:27:41 town davan and privacy redaction stressed that the meeting place should be kept as secret as possible over the next few
03:27:53 secret as possible over the next few weeks and under no circumstances should the name of the Public House be mentioned on the telephone as they did not wish special Branch to know the
03:28:05 location now if we can take that um document down please and if we could um have up the document which is ms-
03:28:16 ms- 0739
03:28:18 0739 863 so that's tab 19 of your
03:28:33 bundle if we could scroll down please to tab to paragraph
03:28:43 four uh and that reads privacy redaction has stated that the Irish National Liberation solidarity front cannot continue to use the
03:28:54 front cannot continue to use the premises at privacy redaction as its headquarters and the committee is now
03:29:06 headquarters and the committee is now looking for new premises preferably with a shop front so it could be used as a Bookshop the office would have to be cited in an Irish area I.E Kilburn or Camden Town privacy redaction stated that having the officers at her home was
03:29:23 that having the officers at her home was causing conflict between herself and her husband as they found it impossible to have any time to themselves so I've shown you two documents uh Dr Temple the first of which suggests a rather
03:29:35 first of which suggests a rather secretive attitude to where the group would be meeting uh but the second suggests that the group was Keen to have a
03:29:41 a Bookshop can you help us as to how we reconcile the apparent tensions as to the level of
03:29:53 the level of secrecy yeah I think this is nothing more than people thinking aloud this is not specific plan to call this a plan would be an exaggeration it
03:30:07 this a plan would be an exaggeration it is not a plan it is thinking aloud this would be a good idea why don't we do this but never reached um a level of serious organization so the meeting in
03:30:22 serious organization so the meeting in the the other document the pub in Canton town I have no recollection of ever going to a pub in Canton Town um so it sounded like it sounded like a good idea at the time this would
03:30:38 like a good idea at the time this would be a good idea there must have been some problem with the pub in um Paddington I I can't remember why maybe the guy put the rent out I don't know what happened maybe he got fed up with us I don't remember why there must have been some
03:30:50 remember why there must have been some problem there so they needed another Pub um but I do not recall ever having meetings in a pub in C maybe we did and I just can't remember but my memory of
03:31:12 I just can't remember but my memory of all this is pretty good so I don't think anything ever came of this so therefore I would call it thinking aloud and the same applies this um bookstore in Kilburn or Cen Town um IE should obviously be EG you should teach the guy some good English there he should know the difference between EG and ie I'm sure you would not
03:31:31 between EG and ie I'm sure you would not make that mistake um so an Irish area um no uh I can't even remember anybody talking about that was Davin always liked to be very optimistic that was part of his style in order to make
03:31:48 part of his style in order to make people support him we're building up to greater and greater things more people more activities more money Etc so he liked to be ultra positive so that was probably him being Ultra we're gonna
03:32:02 probably him being Ultra we're gonna organize a Bookshop we're gonna get a Bookshop something like that now the bit about um davon's flat yeah it was squashed in they had their
03:32:15 it was squashed in they had their bedroom which was out of bounds to everybody else but um other than that they didn't have M they had a child at by that time and we were organizing the
03:32:36 by that time and we were organizing the paper and having meetings so their flat was basically where we did everything had meetings produce a paper
03:32:38 paper um davon's wife Barbara she was getting rather fed up with everything I think maybe Alex Sloan picked up on it that she was
03:32:51 picked up on it that she was getting slowly more fed up with the whole
03:32:55 whole activity I think that's probably what he picked up on um when he writes that sentence they found it impossible to have any time to themselves that's what I believe he is referring to it means
03:33:10 I believe he is referring to it means that um uh she was just fed up thank you um
03:33:18 um did the in lsf use its own name on the post as it put up oh yes and did I've seen reference in the papers to a membership form and consideration being given when a form was filled in as to whether to accept a member what what were the selection
03:33:30 were the selection criteria oh I've never I I have no memory of ever even seeing that form before that's one of those things like uh um
03:33:44 uh um thinking aloud we can call it where this is a good idea we've got to be more official we've got to be more organized more like a proper organization um so therefore if you're joining any organization where labor
03:33:56 joining any organization where labor party or anything else you fill in a form so that's what we should do but I
03:34:09 form so that's what we should do but I don't even remember um even seeing that form how security conscious was the in lsf
03:34:18 lsf well uh yes it's really a badge of honor that uh the worst thing of course is to be ignored if um if you're a revolutionary organization and the police consider you so trivial in importance that they just ignore you
03:34:34 importance that they just ignore you well that's the ultimate insult um you really need to um believe that the police are spying on you because you are so
03:34:39 so important
03:34:41 important now we had it in our heads at the time that the way the police would spy on you is by somehow tapping your phone so
03:34:55 is by somehow tapping your phone so somebody had heard from somewhere that it might be possible to use a
03:35:01 to use a telephone we're talking 1970 technology remember it might be possible to use a telephone as a bagging device now now we know you can do that with an iPhone yes um it can be done but that's today at
03:35:18 um it can be done but that's today at that time it was very on one occasion we even unscrewed the phone and tried to look inside it for a bugging device and when we had a meeting we took the phone out of the room and put it outside the
03:35:29 out of the room and put it outside the it had a long lead and we put it outside the door so in case the police were using the phone as some sort of bagging device that was really that was the main activity
03:35:41 really that was the main activity was assuming the phone was tapped that and avoiding the using saying too much on the phone in case the phone was tapped that was the main security
03:35:56 tapped that was the main security Activity thank you um I'm going to ask for one of the paragraphs of your witness statement to be put up now could we have
03:36:02 we have ucpi
03:36:04 ucpi 5
03:36:06 5 34 one up please and then page
03:36:36 thank you it's paragraph 11 that I'm interested in yeah I'm moving on now Dr Temple to the aims of the group and its
03:36:47 Temple to the aims of the group and its it its goals I'm reading from paragraph 11 the meetings would usually involve speeches about the in lsf aims and there was always a lot of talking often from davan about how we should overthrow the
03:37:00 davan about how we should overthrow the state and change things so it is that a
03:37:16 state and change things so it is that a fair assessment of what the ultimate aim of the inls F was yes and then it goes on to say references were often made within meetings to the need to use violence as a means by which to achieve revolutionary change but I always took this to be just
03:37:33 this to be just talk yes but whilst you were a member of the in
03:37:34 the in lsf did you or any other member of the group use violence to advance your cause not at all no
03:37:53 no um was it implicit in your revolutionary philosophy that there might come a time uh when revolution could occur in the future and that would involve violence well yes um that was you're going back
03:38:13 well yes um that was you're going back now like 150 years um the whole history of Europe going back hundreds of years thousands of years is revolutionary violence back to Sparticus and right
03:38:25 violence back to Sparticus and right through European history for the last 2,000 years the Paris commune the Russian
03:38:26 Russian Revolution France in May 1968 um this has been going on for 2,000 years so that is what we were talking about
03:38:37 about um uh um
03:38:49 um uh um sometimes in parts of the world not in Europe but in um developing countries you did this happen Vietnam Iran and other
03:38:51 other countries could I ask you about a sentence a little bit further down in that paragraph I'll read it out um it says the the talk of using revolutionary
03:39:04 says the the talk of using revolutionary violence was in reference to some future time when the time would be right for such activities similar to the situation that then existed in Northern Ireland right could you explain in what
03:39:22 Ireland right could you explain in what sense you thought um that the time might be riper for revolution in Northern Ireland than it was in Great Britain
03:39:38 Ireland than it was in Great Britain well Northern Ireland um I don't want to bore you with a history lesson on how Northern Ireland came into existence um but Northern Ireland there was a movement and still is you know the the
03:39:49 movement and still is you know the the government of Ireland considers Northern Ireland part of Ireland if you're born in belfar the Irish government will give you an Irish
03:40:05 you an Irish passport um so the Catholic half of the country consider themselves Irish and they
03:40:06 they were that's what the whole what they call the was all about trying to kick the British out and unify with the Republic um in what sense would that
03:40:18 Republic um in what sense would that bring about a revolution I'm I'm really interested in in what it was your group
03:40:29 interested in in what it was your group thought well that was specifically okay that was specifically Northern Ireland every place in the world has its own features Northern Ireland is totally different in its history and its political organizations is totally
03:40:40 political organizations is totally different to everywhere else on planet Earth so we weren't um using Northern Ireland as a model for anything rather we were talking in a strictly General
03:40:57 we were talking in a strictly General communist revolutionary sense about some type of Communist Revolution um that should in theory happen at some future time when capitalism
03:41:08 capitalism collapses and was your group focused on Northern Ireland because you thought you had more chance of bringing that about in Northern Ireland than you had in
03:41:25 in Northern Ireland than you had in Great Britain no not at all rather um uh before I joined Davon had met up with Joe O'Neal and um I think Davin Vietnam was going quiet nothing much was going on there and so Davon
03:41:36 much was going on there and so Davon thought well I think he originally came from Ireland and thought well this would
03:41:48 from Ireland and thought well this would be interesting why don't we have a group related to Ireland Northern Ireland and have solidarity with Northern Ireland which means the uh the PE the half of Northern Ireland the Republican half of Northern Ireland so it was just an
03:42:08 Northern Ireland so it was just an accident really Joe O'Neal Davin and one or two other people for formed this group which then became the nlsf
03:42:13 nlsf would it be fair to describe the in lsf as nonsectarian but Anti-Imperialist oh yes um certainly Anti-Imperialist um if somebody walks in
03:42:25 Anti-Imperialist um if somebody walks in and says they're a Protestant they would certainly be most welcome nobody cared nobody ever asked what is your religion it was not of you know it's a principle of the politics the philosophy it
03:42:38 of the politics the philosophy it doesn't matter where in the world you come from what the color of your skin is what religion you were brought up in these things were of no importance can I move on now to the
03:42:55 importance can I move on now to the Irish Liberation press uh how did you help to produce it well that was the main
03:43:02 main activity and um so we would uh produce the whole thing ourselves using the technology of the time um uh typing it
03:43:14 technology of the time um uh typing it and and laying it out pulling photos in and then there was some printer we'd take it all to this printer who would then print it so that was the main activity of the
03:43:30 it so that was the main activity of the organization it was tail wagging the dog the main activity of the nlsf was the Irish Liberation press everything focused around that it was producing it and then everybody was out several times a week going around the pubs in the the Irish areas of London setting the
03:43:45 Irish areas of London setting the paper okay let's have a look at what we think is a sample of the Irish Liberation press and I'm going to ask you to confirm that could we have up please doc
03:44:10 050 yes now that is um I received that copy this
03:44:20 copy this morning um uh yes that is a copy of it um the gun at the top is an AK-47 in fact it was before earlier they were using the gun similar to used by the British army at that time and it was my suggestion to
03:44:43 that time and it was my suggestion to use that one that's an AK47 as used in Vietnam so uh that's why you have the AK4 7 there but yes um that newspaper is represents the views of the in lsf okay thank you if we move to the second page
03:45:04 please it's the editorial I just want to read the two the two paragraphs in the leftand column perhaps we could blow up the first
03:45:18 one this is the editorial which is yes headed revive the fighting Spirit of 1916 with a big exclamation mark um it reads a huge Banner still flutters over Ireland this day another as yet
03:45:38 Ireland this day another as yet incompletely conscious of its power and historic mission is seeking to replace it the first is none other than the reactionary B manner of British imperialism stained with the Blood and Tears of the people of Ireland past and present its emblems are Colonial murder
03:45:49 present its emblems are Colonial murder and profiteering battalions of aggressor soldiers shooting Irish workers on Irish soil CS gas rubber bullets water cannon batons Armored Cars curfews looting
03:46:03 batons Armored Cars curfews looting unemployment poverty degradation of the people arrogance and brutal attempts at terrorization
03:46:15 terrorization this Banner is held in the Gory hands of the British ruling class represented at different times by Tor and labor imperialist regimes at Westminster the little finger of their grip is provided by treacherous puppets in storment and
03:46:26 by treacherous puppets in storment and Dublin today this Banner casts a shadow over the common people working men women and children Catholic Protestant and those of no religion alike the grip
03:46:41 those of no religion alike the grip however is not as firm as other days have witnessed this Banner of imperialist plunder has most definitely commenced its downward descent the second paragraph the second Banner is the opposite of the first it
03:46:58 Banner is the opposite of the first it is the banner of the deprived and heroic people of Ireland it is the banner of Irish National Liberation Unity Independence and socialism it is the fighting proud determined Banner as yet moving in a largely
03:47:12 Banner as yet moving in a largely spontaneous and oftentimes uncertain manner is seeking to assert its dominance this Banner is gripped in the hands of the exploited Irish masses as yet not represented in their own disciplined organizational form the
03:47:24 disciplined organizational form the vehicle of Freedom the grip on this Banner grows daily Tighter and stronger this Banner of collective struggle and sacrifice has commenced its upward
03:47:37 sacrifice has commenced its upward Ascent in the new world era in which imperialism is heading for total collapse and the forces of National Liberation and socialism are heading for
03:47:48 Liberation and socialism are heading for total Victory does does that give a fair flavor of the of the uh publication it yes but I would um explain it better by
03:48:01 yes but I would um explain it better by explaining that the entire organization was a reflection of the views of Davon everything there is written by Davon he
03:48:12 everything there is written by Davon he um in terms of writing the paper nobody was invited to ever write an actual article we were given Sol a chicken feed small little bits and would write very very short little bits of a few
03:48:23 very short little bits of a few sentences taking something that was reported in a newspaper and turning it into a paragraph So whereas davron wrote everything um so the whole organization
03:48:35 everything um so the whole organization was nothing about whatever Davon said it was was going to be um I would liken the
03:48:51 was was going to be um I would liken the way everything was done the best analogy I can give you is Trump so Trump makes his policies we're going to build the wall we're GNA ban Muslims from Coming
03:49:04 wall we're GNA ban Muslims from Coming to America and whatever else he wakes up in the morning and dreams up some crazy idea and says this is the policy and every person supports it and if you disagree with Trump you will be thrown out of the Republican party because um you have to 100% agree with everything
03:49:20 you have to 100% agree with everything that Trump says the nlsf was similar to that Davon was the editor but his definition of the word editor went far beyond the dictionary definition of the word it meant he was the editor in the
03:49:35 word it meant he was the editor in the sense normal sense of the word and the author of everything so all this is written by Davon and um you couldn't disagree with him he never made a mistake if he made a m rule one I don't make mistakes rule
03:49:54 m rule one I don't make mistakes rule two if you see a mistake that I made I refer you to rule number one I never made a mistake everyone else makes mistakes not me um you see I just see a strong similarity with Trump in the way his head worked now to get back to your specific question as best as I can uh
03:50:13 specific question as best as I can uh that's a very very colorful language it sounds like something from a Barack movie I would compare what you've written there you could use that as a dialogue in a Barat movie it would fit quite well um it's full of all these cliches
03:50:24 cliches [Music]
03:50:29 [Music] um that's the best answer I can give you there well Dr Temple that that's thank you very much for that I think it sir if you agree I think this may be a good time to give the shorthand wrers a 10
03:50:43 time to give the shorthand wrers a 10 minute break okay Dr Temple will you be back in 10 minutes please I'll be sitting here waiting for you thank you I'm wait waiting to hear eventually why you're still recovering from the
03:50:55 you're still recovering from the experience I'd be delighted to tell you back in 10
03:51:02 minutes good afternoon everyone we will now take a break may I remind those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join your breakout rooms please the time is now 4:30 p.m. 5:30 p.m. so we shall resume at 5:40 p.m. thank
03:51:38 you
03:56:37 e
03:59:26 good afternoon everyone and welcome back I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings
03:59:37 continue proceedings chairman thank you Mr B thank you sir Dr Temple could hello could hello again could we move to the uh question of demonstrations there's reference in the papers to the in lsf holding
03:59:49 papers to the in lsf holding demonstrations outside lean police station and in Hyde Park my first question is how frequently did the in lsf whole
04:00:06 lsf whole demonstrations not very frequently as I said before the towel that was wagging the dog was the newspaper so that dominated everything the by far the main activities was producing and selling the Irish Liberation press but
04:00:29 selling the Irish Liberation press but it did a few other things here and there so it l up with um uh a few people and one of them was some young ma who
04:00:41 one of them was some young ma who died uh I can't remember the details now but you know there's been cases Stephen Lewis or Steven McCarthy is that the name you're okay that's the name there was the more famous case in more recent years that's still going on with the
04:01:00 years that's still going on with the somebody who was killed in London right uh that's a very famous case this was something comparable McCarthy and we organized a demonstration and that ended up that his relatives got into a fight with a police one or two of them ended I I if my memory serves me correctly they got
04:01:13 memory serves me correctly they got arrested one or two may have even had a prison sentence out of it so that was an activity in relation to somebody who died um then there was a
04:01:26 died um then there was a demonstration hide Park I might have been this might have been um the day may have the date may have been May 1971 I
04:01:38 have the date may have been May 1971 I might have been in in Ireland at at the time I'm not sure okay well can you give me an idea of what sort of size I nlsf organized demonstrations
04:01:49 demonstrations were
04:01:52 were um
04:01:54 um maybe
04:02:00 um 200 300 that would be a very rough estimate of the top of my head and what level of cooperation did you extend the police when organizing and conducting your
04:02:19 when organizing and conducting your demonstrations oh I don't remember I was not involved in that I see um you have described um the police as being regarded as the Enemy Within uh the organization yes does that suggest that you might not have been all that Cooperative as an organization or is
04:02:34 Cooperative as an organization or is that oh that yeah that would be a very accurate
04:02:35 accurate statement I see H and um you've described the demonstrations as disruptive but peaceful could you
04:02:46 as disruptive but peaceful could you describe the level of disruption caused by in
04:02:52 by in lsf well um three things come to mind there's a demonstration in High Park you're referring to I cannot remember being on that because I think it was at the time that five of us did went to
04:03:05 the time that five of us did went to Ireland on a trip we were selling the Irish liberation press around Ireland I think it must have happened at that time that must have been Easter
04:03:19 that must have been Easter 1971 so that was an important time for Irish related activities so they were doing it in London because it was Easter and we were
04:03:30 London because it was Easter and we were in Ireland because it was Easter so that was a good time to go to Ireland so I don't think I was in this activity in Hy park that's why I'm not sure how many people were there the lewisham police station as I recall it might have
04:03:47 station as I recall it might have been a 100 people 50 or 100 people somewhere in that sort of order we were not aiming to have any violence we didn't activate uh encourage it or anything it was the relatives of
04:04:02 it or anything it was the relatives of the person who died did it spontaneously out of personal anger against the police and the third thing that comes to mind is we had once a picket outside the Old
04:04:16 Old Bailey but was a very very small picket like 10 people something like that thank you I've looked through the papers for examples of other sorts of activities that the in lsf got involved
04:04:28 activities that the in lsf got involved in just going to read some of those out to you and I'd like you to tell me whether it's right that the organization use these
04:04:34 use these methods so posters and stick sers oh yeah um well stickers I can't recall
04:04:48 yeah um well stickers I can't recall yeah they made some posters I think yeah we got some posters from Ireland famous Irish historical figures revolutionary figures from like a hundred years before and we were selling some posters at some time political education
04:05:05 time political education classes yes um Alex slone refers to that the as part of the meeting we would discuss not only the Practical things we
04:05:17 discuss not only the Practical things we were doing but talk about something that we could you could Loosely class as education um Alex Sloan referred also to something at davon's house some
04:05:31 something at davon's house some political education class though I don't recall I'm sure it's accurate but I don't recall exactly education classes at dav's flat so I'm not sure what that was referring to and the political education would be a maist political
04:05:49 education would be a maist political education is that right yeah it would be um
04:05:54 um um it was two things in one three things in
04:06:08 in one it was firstly we were in this Irish organization very specifically iseland so if a regular Irish worker turns up you don't want to scare him away of something you're talking about what's going on in China because it'd say you know what the hell are you talking about this is not what's that got to do with Belfast so you were the focus would be
04:06:25 Belfast so you were the focus would be on Ireland so in that sense it was Irish not
04:06:26 not maist uh the second thing I should explain one thing you're using the term
04:06:38 explain one thing you're using the term maist we were generally within the broad definition of malis which was various factions now how I as I said before to you Davon was something like Trump
04:06:50 you Davon was something like Trump whatever idea came out of his head that was the official policy and nobody is allowed to disagree with him because by definition everything he says is correct and it doesn't matter what your opinion
04:07:03 and it doesn't matter what your opinion is now he had his own political ideology he never mentioned chairman ma once never it was always for some reason
04:07:18 never it was always for some reason reasons that I have no idea why he was utterly and completely obsessed with staling so he loved Stalin he wrote about Stalin in the newspaper he didn't ask other people do you agree with me no this is the way
04:07:29 you agree with me no this is the way we're doing it and I'm correct and you are guilty of a crime if you do not agree with me so he had his own version and so as it was his idea that was the
04:07:43 and so as it was his idea that was the version that we followed so there would be things on Starling in there but nothing ever on shamman Ma so we were moist in a very loose generic way but more
04:07:55 but more specifically it would be more accurate to say stalinist than maist thank you the the other thing I've noticed in the papers is uh adopting and supporting causes now one of those
04:08:12 supporting causes now one of those causes was a campaign uh in support of Steph McCarthy's family which you've already
04:08:13 already mentioned in relation to that can you
04:08:24 mentioned in relation to that can you help us with whether Alex Sloan would ever have met Stephen McCarthy's relatives I don't know and another cause that was supported uh seems to have been the black unity and Freedom Party can you
04:08:38 black unity and Freedom Party can you help with what the link was between the uh in lsf and the black unity and freedom uh movement yes this was a um black organization they were two
04:08:50 black organization they were two branches one in South London one in Finsbury Park and we had very friendly relations with them they were the only other organization in the entire world
04:09:03 other organization in the entire world that we were friendly with we were not friendly with anybody else and it was
04:09:16 friendly with anybody else and it was because probably our activities were so different they were involved in Black activities and we were involved in Ireland so therefore there was no opportunity to Simply have an ideological debate and end up walking out on each other so we we both needed
04:09:27 out on each other so we we both needed friends they were very happy to have us as friends and we were happy to have them and so we would meet here and there on one
04:09:37 on one occasion um they were they were going to go to
04:09:38 go to Manchester in for some activity so myself and a couple of other people we went with them to Manchester they had three mini buses so there must have been
04:09:51 three mini buses so there must have been 25 of us in the group and we all went to Manchester for a weekend thank you um there's a document I'd like to show you it's ms-
04:10:01 ms- 0739
04:10:10 488 488 saw that this morning um uh
04:10:22 um uh 488 and we could could we go to page two please yeah the Chinese liation right I looked at that and you wanted to know about the contact between the in lsf and the Chinese
04:10:35 the Chinese allegation and again I think your document is a bit misleading can I just stop you there sorry for for the benefit of people who are following on the transcript um I'm just going to
04:10:47 on the transcript um I'm just going to read the relevant paragraph out so they can follow what we're talking about could you move down to the bottom of the second to the bottom of that page
04:11:05 please um the relevant paragraph reads Davin then gave a report on the visit he had paid to the Chinese legation on Friday the 2nd of April at its invitation he said he had been received
04:11:16 invitation he said he had been received by one of the secretaries who questioned him very closely on the organizations taking an interest in politics in Ireland Davon said with his great knowledge he was able to give him a comprehensive rundown on the various
04:11:29 comprehensive rundown on the various groups the Chinese were very interested in the press and may soon start subscribing to the paper just as they had done with Vanguard in 1964 when they had subscribed to about 400 copies paid in advance the official
04:11:41 400 copies paid in advance the official said that any future receptions or film
04:11:59 said that any future receptions or film shows at the legation members of the in lsf would be invited so now that we've got that read into the transcript Dr Temple um is it a fair what was the level of contact with the Chinese legation and what was its purpose if you had asked me this question
04:12:08 question yesterday my answer would have been I have no recollection whatsoever of Davin or anyone else from the inls in lsf talking to anybody at the Chinese legation I was totally
04:12:20 the Chinese legation I was totally unaware of it I assume that on one occasion for reasons unknown Davon must
04:12:31 occasion for reasons unknown Davon must have gone to the Chinese liation what he did there I don't know why he was there I don't know what he spoke about I don't know but as I said earlier Davin lik
04:12:45 earlier Davin lik to make out we were the most important organization in Britain we were brilliant Davin was brilliant and so probably as there were if there were no Witnesses he could then turn around and say oh he's a brilliant expert and they
04:13:00 say oh he's a brilliant expert and they were so happy to hear from him and they were going to invite him to Future meetings I think my suspicion is a lot of what in there is BS this is Davon trying to say how brilliant he is
04:13:14 Davon trying to say how brilliant he is but I have absolutely no recollection of any of this if there was contact between Davin and the Chinese legation it was extremely minor
04:13:29 extremely minor probably a meeting over a cup of tea for half an
04:13:34 half an hour thank you we can take that document down then and could we have up in its place please ms-
04:13:38 ms- 739
04:13:47 863 and if we could go down to the next page
04:13:56 please and look at paragraph three that reads Ed davan General Secretary of the Irish National Liberation solidarity front has gone away on business for a few days but is expected to return shortly davron
04:14:08 expected to return shortly davron disappears every 3 or four months for about a week at a time it is a very closely kept secret in the organization
04:14:19 closely kept secret in the organization where Davin goes to and very few members know his destination it is thought that the financial affairs of the organization will improve when davan arrives back in London do you know where Davin
04:14:28 Davin went um I
04:14:35 went um I believe what happened was as follows um nobody had any money but his wife Barbara worked at um the London School of Economics she earned
04:14:46 London School of Economics she earned 20s a week she had quite a good job but that was their only money and um so they wanted to have a break once in a while I believe they went to the somewhere on the Channel Islands I think um it was relative or a
04:15:04 Islands I think um it was relative or a friend of the family something like that and they could go and stay there at no cost so I believe they would fly there it was nothing to do with political
04:15:16 it was nothing to do with political activities nothing to do with money Alex loan just was hearing some gossip I think I think he was trying to make some guesses here what was going on within the inner circle of the organization
04:15:27 the inner circle of the organization there was no secret about this Davon wanted a break and he went to with his wife to the Channel Islands later with his son he went there he took the sun
04:15:40 his son he went there he took the sun with him on the plane um this was just a break to the best of my knowledge but Davon being Davon it's within the Realms of possibility he was up to some activity that he didn't tell us
04:15:56 activity that he didn't tell us about okay thank you very much I want to move now to your trip to Ireland which you've already touched upon first of all you tell us in your witness statement
04:16:07 you tell us in your witness statement that you were turned away by police at the Port of Liverpool do you know why that
04:16:08 that was yes um because our main purpose in going to Ireland well we were there to meet
04:16:22 Ireland well we were there to meet people uh as many people as we could and tell them what we were doing in London but also to sell the paper in Ireland sell as many copies as possible both for the benefit of selling the paper so
04:16:34 the benefit of selling the paper so people could learn about us but also to
04:16:47 people could learn about us but also to get get money now so we had this van and we had L several thousand copies of the paper in the van and um somebody from these security type people wasn't a uniform police but it was somebody there was
04:16:54 was already Easter 1971 there was already a lot of security between Britain and Northern Ireland and
04:17:07 between Britain and Northern Ireland and um somebody there noticed all the papers and
04:17:12 and decided uh it would be very unhelpful to have people going to Northern Ireland
04:17:25 have people going to Northern Ireland bringing all these newspapers with so he refused to allow us to get on the uh Ferry thank you uh could we have up please
04:17:27 please ms-07 39
04:17:35 489
04:17:47 and could we see the large paragraph in the second half of the
04:18:03 page just read that out uh privacy gave a report on the visit of five members of the I lsf to Ireland and stressed the good contacts which had been made in that country he said that they had sold 4,400 papers and had received the support of the provisionals to sell the
04:18:17 support of the provisionals to sell the paper a person in Dublin had decided to take 200 copies of each edition of the paper to sell in two bookshops in Cork were willing to sell copies this was followed by General discussion on the
04:18:31 followed by General discussion on the report and the statement by privacy that they had received the support of the provisionals created an atmosphere of comment
04:18:37 comment and
04:18:41 and disbelief could you explain please why there was comment and disbelief uh at the statement about support from the
04:18:53 support from the provisionals well that is um Alex Sloan making his own commentary on it um an atmosphere of comment that means I guess that's another way of saying people were interested what were we up to and um how
04:19:12 interested what were we up to and um how interesting going to Ireland and selling the paper an atmosphere of comment I think that's what he means there disbelief I don't really know what he meant by the word
04:19:27 disbelief I'm not sure at all did you meet uh members of the provisional Ira when you were uh in Ireland yeah um we went to
04:19:42 Ireland yeah um we went to Dublin and they have a their office in Dublin now this was purely based on personal contact Joe O'Neal um one of our people he was from
04:19:55 O'Neal um one of our people he was from Belfast and he was as I said earlier the person who formed the in lsf together with
04:19:58 with Davon and he had some sort of personal contact with him so he knew these people in he knew lots of people so he knew uh people in their office in
04:20:18 so he knew uh people in their office in Dublin So based on this personal contact we met people we drove around with them in Dublin they were singing some Ira songs uh one there was one guy who had a bullet wound where he had been shot in the arm by a British
04:20:33 the arm by a British soldier um so these were certainly provisionals and we met them in Dublin um when we went to Cork we met somebody we stayed the night with
04:20:51 somebody we stayed the night with somebody who was somehow involved in all activities but I have no idea what he was involved in he wouldn't say then we were in um uh Belfast or was it Derry one or the other uh Anderson's Town yeah Anderson's town in
04:21:03 town in Belfast
04:21:08 Belfast and uh we were trying to sell the paper this was a fun activity um I two guys came walking along the street and I tried to sell the paper to them and they gave me a very
04:21:22 paper to them and they gave me a very friendly Irish reception they said to me their words were which I remember perfectly you got five minutes to get out
04:21:29 out um when you're in a dark Street in Belfast in an IRA area and somebody says to you you've got five minutes to get out you don't discuss freedom of the
04:21:40 out you don't discuss freedom of the press um but then Joe O'Neal spoke to them and uh they confirmed yes we did
04:21:51 them and uh they confirmed yes we did have permission from the provisionals to be in that area so that was okay we at that point we had cleared it with people higher up the chain and then it was
04:22:05 higher up the chain and then it was okay and what was your message to the provisional IRA well I didn't have a message the only just uh you don't want to annoy
04:22:19 only just uh you don't want to annoy them so we didn't the provisionals are a Catholic nationalist organization so their politics is totally different to our politics so there's no point in having an argument about the um
04:22:34 having an argument about the um left-wing politics communism nationalism or anything like that the only area where I got into any sort of argument was on um the Palestinians because I felt well it's okay to talk about the
04:22:48 felt well it's okay to talk about the pal the Palestinians because that's so far removed from Ireland they can't really get annoyed if they disagree with me on the Palestinian issue that's a
04:23:06 me on the Palestinian issue that's a neutral and safe topic to talk about but I wasn't involved in Joe O'Neal was the local guy so he was talking to them about different
04:23:24 things and um did the in lsf provide any assistance to the provisional Ira of any kind no absolutely not um Davon um was extremely critical sometime later uh he wrote in the paper he denounced a provisional Ira he denounced when they were talking about a bombing
04:23:38 when they were talking about a bombing campaign in England he denounced it and said this was a terrible idea and he denounced them as um I can't remember the words Catholic nationalists or something like that the their
04:23:51 something like that the their ideology they were a Catholic and nationalist they were never a left-wing organization so
04:24:03 organization so therefore for Davon the only acceptable politics was his politics so as they were to his politics they therefore they were
04:24:15 were wrong did your group meet anybody on the other side of the sectarian divide when you were in Ireland um they were um called the stickers the official Ira no we never met anybody from the official
04:24:29 met anybody from the official Ira by that time the split had already happened the provisionals um uh were one lot who we met because Joe O'Neal had this contact and the other lot were the officials but we
04:24:47 other lot were the officials but we never met them did you meet any of the Protestant groups absolutely not that would be very bad for the health so when we were talking earlier about you having a nonsectarian philosophy did it in practice mean
04:24:58 philosophy did it in practice mean though that the people you were mixing with in Ireland were all on the Catholic side of this of the religious divide right I would rather say it was on the Catholic side of the political
04:25:09 on the Catholic side of the political divide because it was the politics of the organization Ireland always had many different organizations civil rights and nationalist
04:25:20 nationalist organizations Etc so it wasn't really the religion of the people it was the politics so we didn't object to the
04:25:31 politics so we didn't object to the Protestant groups because we don't agree with the Protestant theology it was because of their politics thank you can
04:25:44 because of their politics thank you can I move now to the Inner Circle of the in lsf which I think was called the Communist workers League you've described a little bit um how it how it worked can you help help us
04:25:56 worked can you help help us with why it was that Alex Sloan did not become a member of that inner circle okay we'll have to go back because you um jumped ahead this communist workers League that came later
04:26:13 League that came later after the split sometime May or so we had this split Joe O'Neal and others left Alex Sloan had disappeared and then the smaller group who stayed with Davon formed this thing
04:26:24 who stayed with Davon formed this thing called the Communist workers League that was after May so going the first four months of 1971 that's when Alex Sloan was around we had the main group that
04:26:39 was around we had the main group that anybody could come to with a meeting in the pub in Paddington which was where Alex slone was involved going out and selling papers and um some type of educational activity
04:26:52 um some type of educational activity which Alex Sloan refers to apparently I don't recall it but apparently that was at davon's flat so that was going on the
04:27:08 at davon's flat so that was going on the to be invited to the inner group you had to be trusted and Alex slow never reached that level of being trusted I see it this may not matter very much but looking at the documents the the F we've got a report um about
04:27:22 the the F we've got a report um about the Communist workers League which is dated the 18th of June 1971 and the the documents at which there was the the emergency conference was just a week week or so later
04:27:40 was just a week week or so later so it appears that the first reference to the Communist workers league is slightly before the date of the emergency conference does that cause you to um search your memory and revise any of the evidence you've just given no I
04:27:51 of the evidence you've just given no I think what you've got there is wrong um like Alex slan says in his statement he refers to a lot of errors in the
04:28:07 refers to a lot of errors in the documents um so I think some errors have crept into it um one thing Alex Sloan and myself agree on so the chronology was um we had the nlsf that had been going on for I don't know eight months or so we were Sting
04:28:18 know eight months or so we were Sting the Irish Liberation press we went to irand Joe O'Neil and myself were two of the five people who went to Ireland we
04:28:32 the five people who went to Ireland we came back and shortly after coming back Joe O'Neal had decided he was fed up with Davon he decided that Davon had his own agenda Davon wanted was bored and
04:28:51 own agenda Davon wanted was bored and fed up with Irish activities and wanted to turn the nlsf into a British organization not Irish that led to the split I believe that is what the emergency meeting refers to so we had this
04:29:02 refers to so we had this meeting that led to a split in the organization half the people walked out and the other half including myself stayed with Davon now davron having said during the
04:29:20 Davon now davron having said during the split that he had no interest in forming a British organization he was only interested in the Irish activity then a few weeks after the split now turns
04:29:31 few weeks after the split now turns around and says okay guys I'm now going to form a British organization that's where the Communists were workers League came in that was davon's that was
04:29:43 came in that was davon's that was davon's new baby that was really dumping Ireland and moving over to British activities for no other reason than that this is what Davon had chosen he wanted to do okay thank you I'm going to move
04:29:54 to do okay thank you I'm going to move now to Alex Sloan you've described him as Scottish and quiet and that you you say you only spoke to him in limited
04:30:06 say you only spoke to him in limited terms can you help us with what you did speak to Alex Sloan about no um uh I never really had anything that
04:30:17 um uh I never really had anything that you could call a conversation with him it
04:30:22 it was just saying hello to him in passing I I really have no recollection of really talking to him at all uh now did he speak to
04:30:41 all uh now did he speak to others I don't know I assume so because when we went out setting the paper one person was in charge of pairing people off going off in pairs
04:30:56 of pairing people off going off in pairs and having different Roots so two people would be in one area and two people in another area so he would have been paired off with somebody and he would have been speaking to that person whoever it was but that person was not me did did he do you did he befriend
04:31:10 did did he do you did he befriend anybody in particular or talk to anybody in particular not that I recall was it common in the in lsf for
04:31:23 recall was it common in the in lsf for people to be close to one another or was it normal for the social ties to be quite
04:31:29 quite loose well yeah you um in the the people who were active all the time in the
04:31:40 who were active all the time in the particularly in the inner group yeah you would um be chatting to people when you were out selling the paper You' be walking around with somebody for the whole evening so you'd be talking to them we went to Manchester three of us so you'd be talking we went to Island
04:32:00 so you'd be talking we went to Island five of us so naturally there's lots of time for talking to people um hanging around forming the new making the newspaper at davon's flat um naturally in the course of this there would be large amounts of time available for talking about any number of
04:32:17 things and other things thank you in meetings did he make contributions uh Manny or comments no
04:32:31 contributions uh Manny or comments no comments sorry uh not that I recall he was a quiet person he would the guy before him Jackson um
04:32:42 Jackson um um he was much more of a talkative person he was much more outgoing
04:32:48 outgoing Jackson was exposed and disappeared then Alex was clearly the replacement but Alex Sloan was just his very quiet person who just um pretty
04:33:00 very quiet person who just um pretty much said nothing that I recall he just made no
04:33:03 made no um impact on me did it may be obvious from what you've just said but I had better ask it um did Alex Sloan assume any positions of responsibility in your group
04:33:22 no now I want to ask you a little bit about some slightly legal matters there's a docu some documents which suggest you gave a talk about arrests and what to do if arrested did you did you have any legal
04:33:38 you have any legal qualifications absolutely sorry carry on AB absolutely not it was based on my entire knowledge of the legal system which I Hazard to guess is a bit less than yours was entirely based on reading
04:33:57 than yours was entirely based on reading some pamphlet and all I was doing was um regurgitating bits and pieces I'd read in some
04:34:02 in some pamphlet okay could we have a look please uh at ms-7 739 487 this is tab 12 of the bundle sir
04:34:23 yeah and if we could move down to the second page please and the largest paragraph on that page one with Sidelines A and B I'll just read this into the transcri
04:34:44 B I'll just read this into the transcri script Ed Davon then reviewed his plans in connection with the Steven McCarthy case he had consulted a solicitor who had said that on the basis of the evidence gathered by the Revolutionary Coordinating Committee there appeared to be sufficient evidence to take the case
04:34:56 be sufficient evidence to take the case before a magistrate who could not refuse a warrant for the arrest of the two police offices concerned after taking statements from the witnesses and family this would be the Next Step the family
04:35:09 this would be the Next Step the family had said that they were prepared to give financial support to another public meeting legal action was also being contemplated against Chief Inspector forest for his part in the riot after
04:35:22 forest for his part in the riot after the meeting at Islington Town Hall when he had used his position to cause and support police brutality my preliminary question do so we understand is could
04:35:35 question do so we understand is could you help us with what the Revolutionary Coordinating Committee was please um to the best of my recollection that was the name of um the asot the Irish Li uh in lsf and
04:35:50 um the asot the Irish Li uh in lsf and that black organization black unity and Freedom
04:35:55 Freedom Party um always being super optimistic and having great Ambitions for the Glorious times ahead when many other
04:36:06 Glorious times ahead when many other organizations come and join us we um uh we were we called ourselves a revolution I'm I'm going by memory but I'm fairly sure this is what it's referring to so they don't call it
04:36:21 referring to so they don't call it organization they call it Coordinating Committee and as the name implies it was coordinating so the i in lsf and the black group are coordinating with each
04:36:38 black group are coordinating with each other so this is I'm fairly sure that is what it refers to the idea is that it was going to expand and other organizations would join but that never happened thank you can you recall whether or not the plan to issue
04:36:52 whether or not the plan to issue warrants for the arrest of the two police officers uh were taken forward oh God no um i' I I have no recollection of ever seeing this stuff before this is like
04:37:09 before this is like um my answer here is the same as with respect to going to the Chinese liation um it sounds like a grandiose plan uh to get everyone excited nothing I I don't even if
04:37:28 excited nothing I I don't even if anything was being done I would remember it but I have no recollection of any of this this
04:37:33 this this was this was people thinking aloud and being ambitious that's
04:37:39 Dr Temple I'll tell you what I'm driving at what this is is um legal advice being recorded by an undercover police officer and what I'm driving at is was there was there any more legal advice given uh by
04:37:56 there any more legal advice given uh by a solicitor which was then relayed by Ed Davon or anyone else uh which Alex Sloan would have heard I don't think that you I I remember the great majority of what was
04:38:08 remember the great majority of what was spoken about even though it was 50 years ago I can tell you the great majority of
04:38:22 ago I can tell you the great majority of everything that happened and what people said and I don't recall this so this um Somebody went and saw a lawyer um their favorite lawyer was a person in the near the barah High Street
04:38:33 person in the near the barah High Street by the name of Ben Benedict bernberg his name was and um that was probably the source of the advice most likely but it could have been another lawyer so
04:38:45 could have been another lawyer so somebody went and spoke to a lawyer and repeated this at a meeting um probably this discussion was a 10-minute
04:39:01 a 10-minute discussion I have no recollection of it clearly Alex Sloan wrote it down this grabbed his attention and he thought this was very interesting and so he wrote it down and put it in his report thank you Dr Temple I'm going to move on now to the documents uh
04:39:16 move on now to the documents uh connected with the emergency conference late in June 1971 could we have up please ms-07
04:39:25 39470 that's at tab 20 of the
04:39:33 bundle and if we could keep going
04:39:38 please could scroll down
04:39:44 please to the next
04:39:55 page thank you if that could be expanded lovely thank you very much now the dates that we can take from this document uh Dr Temple are that um it's said that the there's a paper attached to this
04:40:10 there's a paper attached to this report um which is the basis of the conference that is being set up an emergency conference is being announced to be held on the 26th and the 27th of June the paper um which is uh setting
04:40:26 June the paper um which is uh setting out some allegations against members of the in
04:40:27 the in lsf is said to have been circulate circulated on the 20th of June 1917
04:40:39 circulated on the 20th of June 1917 1 and uh there are said to have been already some expulsions from the cwl on the 16th of June so I'll just take you through those at the first
04:40:59 take you through those at the first paragraph reads due to dissension which has arisen within the organization the Irish National Liberation solidarity front has issued a document at Ed davan's
04:41:01 davan's instigation copies of which are submitted here with calling for an emergency conference to be held throughout the weekend of the 26th and 27th of June
04:41:19 27th of June 1971 at and then a privacy reduction if we could go to the bottom of this page please and look at paragraph
04:41:28 five it says um privacy and privacy were expelled from the Communist workers League of Britain Marxist leninist the inner
04:41:46 Britain Marxist leninist the inner caucus of the in lsf on the 16th of June 1971 for the already quoted reasons it is promised that all aspects of the organization will be discussed uh and then if we could go to page seven
04:41:59 please this is the paper that was attached to the report and which was to form the basis of the com conference if we go to the bottom of the
04:42:18 page says this statement in is for presentation to in lsf comrades on the Sunday the 20th of June 1971 um so it sets out the allegations against the
04:42:31 individuals my first question to you is as far as you can recall is the chronology of this paper being presented
04:42:45 chronology of this paper being presented to the in lsf at a Sunday meeting on the 20th of June four days after two expulsions from the cwl and the week weekend before the emergency conference
04:42:57 emergency conference correct um okay let me try to answer it as best I can firstly this name communist workers League um I assume that must be correct so I think what I said earlier was
04:43:09 so I think what I said earlier was incorrect I don't recall us using that name for the inner group but apparently we did there was later after this about
04:43:30 we did there was later after this about two months later so July August um Davon decided to organize this British group um communist workers League of no now I'm sure I was right the first time this communist workers this is two or three things getting mled up together the
04:43:45 things getting mled up together the Communist workers League I'm sure was the new
04:43:50 the new organization which Davon invented after the
04:43:54 the split we had we made one more issue of the Irish Liberation press it's like somebody um their wife dies you you want to wait a respectable period like a month before getting married again so
04:44:10 month before getting married again so after having the split with Davon saying that um we are not a British organization we're an Irish organization so that lasted about a month two months
04:44:27 so that lasted about a month two months made a new issue of the Irish Liberation press then Davon turned around and said okay guys now we're going to make a British organization and a British newspaper I'm pretty sure this name communist workers League of Britain that says Britain it doesn't say Ireland so
04:44:42 says Britain it doesn't say Ireland so this organization came later well after the split how it got muddled up into this document I do not know now getting back specifically to the split okay as I said I went to Ireland
04:44:54 split okay as I said I went to Ireland at Easter 1971 with Joe O'Neal and three others after we came back things came to a head Joe O'Neal
04:45:10 a head Joe O'Neal was um decided that Davon and he decided correctly was bored with Irish activities and wanted to go over to British activities Joe
04:45:21 British activities Joe O'Neal figured that out correctly and that caused the split so one group of
04:45:37 that caused the split so one group of people decided to resign Jo O'Neil and several others and Dav several others including myself stayed for a few months
04:45:40 months um so that would have been the split would have been after Easter June June
04:45:52 would have been after Easter June June would be about right so June 1971 would be about the right date for it
04:45:54 it um uh
04:45:57 um uh so we we had this conference an emergency conference big argument split Jo o Neil and several people walk out
04:46:08 Jo o Neil and several people walk out other people stay behind and then the people who stay behind then had a formal motion expelling all the people who had already just resigned you don't resign
04:46:22 already just resigned you don't resign you're expelled you cannot resign you're expelled um so we then reformed ourselves now you can call it a ramper
04:46:34 ourselves now you can call it a ramper group we we were just half the size now Does this answer your question it does and it takes me very nicely to the next one which is was it at the emergency
04:46:49 one which is was it at the emergency conference on the 26th and 27th of June 1971 uh that the allegation was made against Alex Sloan that he was a police
04:47:06 against Alex Sloan that he was a police spy yes now this is um a good example of Davon where I compare with Trump pathological liar
04:47:10 liar um he
04:47:12 um he earlier had Joe O'Neal I think it was Joe O'Neal Who first came up with the idea that Alex Sloan was actually working for the police and
04:47:24 working for the police and um one day Davin and Joe O'Neil one or other of both of them said to me Norman be careful we think Alex Sloan is working for the police so they warned me and both of them
04:47:36 so they warned me and both of them clearly believed it now we had this split Davon is a pathological liar and he says whatever he wants to say in order to try to maintain as many of the
04:47:52 order to try to maintain as many of the people as possible he didn't want me and other people walking out on the organization so as a cheap bit of ammunition he having already decided he
04:48:03 ammunition he having already decided he already believed Alex Sloan was working for the police in order to make a cheap bit of ammunition he said in the meeting uh Joe O'Neal slandered comrade Alex
04:48:16 uh Joe O'Neal slandered comrade Alex comrade means that they're they're a good guy on our side he sounded comrade Alex by accusing him of working for the police um the Davon believed Alex work
04:48:32 police um the Davon believed Alex work for the police this was a cheap stamp to score points by Den in Alex Sloan BYU accusing Joe O'Neal of SL of making this
04:48:44 accusing Joe O'Neal of SL of making this terrible slander against a loyal comrade and accusing him of being a policeman um Alex Sloan then jumped up and said what is the evidence he was denying it and um
04:48:59 evidence he was denying it and um so then Alex Sloan realized his days in the IRL SE had come to an end he had to disappear after that now after the meeting later that day myself and
04:49:11 meeting later that day myself and another person asked Davon do you think that Alex Sloan works for the police and
04:49:22 that Alex Sloan works for the police and davron said yes I do so we asked him and he said it now Davin was always very very careful he was um he would never make a slip of the tongue and it was very uncharacteristic of him because he
04:49:39 very uncharacteristic of him because he was admitting in effect that he had lied in the meeting earlier he had accused Joe O'Neil of making this terrible slander against comrade Alex when in fact the truth was he believed that Alex that Alex Sloan was a policeman he
04:49:54 that Alex Sloan was a policeman he actually believed it and he was just using it as to score
04:50:02 points thank you you have to put yourself in the mindset of that time and the the thought processes thank you that's that's very helpful can I just dial back a little
04:50:13 helpful can I just dial back a little bit to the point at which you are first told that there are suspicions that Alex Sloan might be working for the police do you know
04:50:25 working for the police do you know whether anybody had done any Research into his
04:50:31 into his background no um I don't know where the idea came from at all I do not know but um I think it I suspect it was Joe O'Neal somehow or rather figured it out
04:50:46 O'Neal somehow or rather figured it out he saw some Clues what the clues were I do not
04:50:51 do not know uh at the meeting where he was accused of of being a police spy you've you've explained what what
04:51:06 spy you've you've explained what what you recall Davon saying did anybody did anybody directly accuse him of being a police spy no it was more it wasn't that Davon was accusing Alex Salone of being a police
04:51:26 accusing Alex Salone of being a police spy it was Davon was accusing Joe O'Neal of slandering comrade Alex by maliciously falsely accusing Alex Sloan of being a police spy yeah was defending Alex Sloan
04:51:38 police spy yeah was defending Alex Sloan I understand that and so that that's why I'm I'm asking um whether anybody directly accused accused Alex Sloan of
04:51:49 directly accused accused Alex Sloan of being a pig at that meeting or any other meeting you were present at no and you've explained your recollection of Alex Sloan's reaction to the
04:52:09 reaction to the allegation could you explain to was what Alex Sloan physically was doing um at the time when he was asking what evidence there was he was sitting on a chair we were having a meeting there were about I don't know 10 or 15 people in the room maybe 12 or 15 people in the
04:52:28 in the room maybe 12 or 15 people in the room he was one of the people and he was sitting on a chair listening to it all did he grab anybody oh no there was no there was nothing physical at the meeting between anybody
04:52:41 physical at the meeting between anybody nobody touched anybody and how long did he remain in the meeting after the allegation had been made well the meeting continued there was this that was one little bit of an argument that went on for hours talking about Joe
04:52:53 went on for hours talking about Joe O'Neal was saying accusing aavin of trying to turn the Irish organization into a British organization there were many different
04:53:04 many different aspects of the argument uh Joe O'Neil had one lot of arguments Davon had another lot of
04:53:15 arguments Davon had another lot of arguments this went on for hours and this little bit with Alex Sloan and whether or not he was working for the police was one little bit of a long argument going on for
04:53:33 hours so I think I'm understanding that I'm not getting the impression that Alex Sloan stormed out of the meeting or anything like that you're telling oh no he didn't storm out of the meeting no could you help us why did you uh with the other member of the in lsf go to
04:53:46 the other member of the in lsf go to Alex Sloan's flat later that evening well because he called us what clearly happened is Alex SL
04:54:00 happened is Alex SL decided uh he couldn't effectively be a police spy anymore uh the mere fact that there was suspicion that was more than enough he couldn't he couldn't possibly be
04:54:11 couldn't he couldn't possibly be effective any longer and so clearly he decided to throw a wrench in the works
04:54:24 decided to throw a wrench in the works he would go out try to do a little bit of
04:54:25 of sabotage before disappearing so what he did was called
04:54:40 disappearing so what he did was called up somebody and said these two people I saw them out of my window spying on me in the street and um this was several hours after the split and the two people one was from one from each side of the
04:54:56 one was from one from each side of the split so that meant by inference one of the people who was on our side of the split was collaborating with somebody on the other side of the split and and therefore the obvious intent was we
04:55:14 therefore the obvious intent was we would be suspicious of the guy who was pretending to be on our side but who knows what his real loyalty was so Alex Sloan then said to us this is
04:55:25 so Alex Sloan then said to us this is what happened I saw these two guys look spying I can't be in your organization anymore obviously people don't trust me therefore I'm leaving uh we shook hands with him on very
04:55:42 uh we shook hands with him on very amicable terms I shook hands with him and saidwell good luck comrade there was no animosity thank you do you know um whether anybody actually ever did follow him were you able to confirm or deny
04:56:00 him were you able to confirm or deny that not that I know of I nobody ever told me they followed him Joe O'Neal somehow or rather decided he was probably working for the police why he came to that conclusion I do not
04:56:16 know in terms of the idea that Alex Sloan said what he said to you that evening to divide the group the group had already split by that stage hadn't it
04:56:27 it correct so how how would it further damage the group because one of the people on our side of the split who stayed with us he said this guy was
04:56:45 stayed with us he said this guy was together with a guy on the other side of the split they were together side by side outside his flat apparently spying
04:56:58 side outside his flat apparently spying on him so the people now on our side of the split should not be in any contact with the other people we've divorced them why there's no valid reason why
04:57:09 them why there's no valid reason why somebody on our side of the split should be dealing with somebody on the other side of the split did he say when he'd been followed well it all must have happened over the course of a few
04:57:24 hours or the ne may be the next day something like that was he was he saying that he had just been followed or was he saying he might he would been followed in the past um it would have been right after the
04:57:42 um it would have been right after the split so the split was one day then we SP maybe it was that that night perhaps you know I don't remember exactly the chronology but it was a very
04:57:53 exactly the chronology but it was a very very short period of time perhaps it was 24 hours so there was a split there's two groups now and maybe a
04:58:07 split there's two groups now and maybe a day later Alex calls us and say says hey I have to resign from the organization because you guys are spying on
04:58:14 me um maybe it was right after the split the allegedly this incident which I'm sure never happened of two people spying on him and being outside his flight and
04:58:29 on him and being outside his flight and then perhaps the next day I spoke to him but I'm not sure is that it was a m we're talking maybe a day the whole span of it from beginning to end might have been a day two at the
04:58:42 been a day two at the most how sure are you that he said that two people had been following him oh quite sure he definitely said he was specific this guy from our side of the
04:58:53 specific this guy from our side of the split and that guy from the other side of the split it was very specific I think it may follow from the that was the whole point of it to make it a credible argument it had to be clear that it was two people from opposite
04:59:08 that it was two people from opposite sides who therefore have no good reason to be collaborating together it may be obvious from the answers you've already given but just to be clear I'm going to ask you this in
04:59:25 be clear I'm going to ask you this in the the time after Alex Sloan had left did anybody to your knowledge conduct any further research into uh Alex Sloan's identity no I never heard uh no um nobody that I'm aware of made
04:59:41 uh no um nobody that I'm aware of made any attempt whatsoever to find out who he really
04:59:43 he really was thank you now going to move beyond the in lsf very briefly there's a report
04:59:54 the in lsf very briefly there's a report um about the anti- interment League it's dated the 13th of April 1972 it's about arrangements for a
05:00:07 1972 it's about arrangements for a demonstration that's going to be held in Bristol against the return of the glou um
05:00:09 glou um to the mainland from Northern Ireland that I think you have seen in the past that was in the bundle you've recently
05:00:25 that was in the bundle you've recently been shown a document about the Bristol March which occurred on the 15th of April
05:00:27 April 1972 were you at that Bristol demonstration no I have never had had the great Good Fortune to ever go to
05:00:39 the great Good Fortune to ever go to Bristol thank you but were you at you are recorded as having been at the meeting in at Camden town at the Irish Center held on the 11th of April
05:00:55 Center held on the 11th of April 1972 uh were you at that meeting not that I recall what happened was um
05:00:58 was um in I left quit Davin and everything associated with it in approximately September 1971 so after
05:01:10 in approximately September 1971 so after the split I stayed on with Davon so that
05:01:24 the split I stayed on with Davon so that was roughly June to September along with Davon but then I quit and I had very very minimal involvement with any political activities after that now here and there I did go to occasional activities I was not actively involved
05:01:39 activities I was not actively involved in anything nothing active I'd never had an official position um I might have turned up at some meeting just out of curiosity out of Interest hear about some meeting in
05:01:50 of Interest hear about some meeting in London go there listen to it so maybe I was at some anti- interment meeting and was out of curiosity listening to
05:02:05 was out of curiosity listening to something some somebody saw me there but by then I would I had no active involvement I wasn't organizing anything I wasn't no official position no fundraising nothing like that thank you Dr Temple now um just
05:02:20 that thank you Dr Temple now um just finally can you help us with what your understanding of the cultural revolution was back in
05:02:37 was back in 1971 I'm talking now of the cultural revolution that was going on in China well yes um um I was at Liverpool University for a brief and very unsuccessful period from 1965 to
05:02:52 unsuccessful period from 1965 to 1967 um I got thrown out for doing nothing and that was the problem I was doing nothing so while studying you
05:03:04 doing nothing so while studying you using the word in the loosest possible sense of the word there was a room in the library with all the periodicals and
05:03:16 the library with all the periodicals and one periodical I used to keep looking at was from China and that piqued my interest and that's where I got interested in the cultural revolution that was
05:03:29 that was 6566 but I had no I was a member of the labor party at that time but later
05:03:31 later 67 um um I was now in London working in London and then Vietnam was active and I decided to be part of it and for reasons
05:03:48 decided to be part of it and for reasons that made some sort of good sense at the time God knows what what I was thinking of but I orientated myself not to the pro- Russian people not to the prot trky people but to the pro-china people uh we what was the attitude of
05:04:02 people uh we what was the attitude of the maoists that you were circulating with in London in the late 60s and early 70s to the cultural revolution well it was within the
05:04:17 revolution well it was within the broader ideology so there's three key ideologies on the left there was the commun cpgb Communist Party of Great Britain which was pro- Soviet Union there was multiple trotskyist
05:04:35 Union there was multiple trotskyist organizations which you have referred to some IMG I International socialists and a few others they were against the Soviet Union against China but Pro trosky and then there was
05:04:47 China but Pro trosky and then there was the pro-china people of which there were different factions so the biggest was probably the Communist Party of England Marxist no Communist Party of Britain Marxist leninist which was led by a man
05:05:09 Marxist leninist which was led by a man called re bir who was a head of a trade Union big Trade union um Nick Bateson was part of that there was also a complete lunatic organization called the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist um they were complete
05:05:25 leninist um they were complete lunatics so there were several groups so I was within that General mishmash that was IDE ideology this is the ideology iose what I'm what I'm driving
05:05:36 ideology iose what I'm what I'm driving at is this is is we now now know that a very large number of people lost their lives in China during the cultural revolution and the purges that were invol part of it was that known to maist in that that
05:05:52 it was that known to maist in that that was did The Mists in London at that time know that was going on no um the there was already before that 10 years before it there was what was
05:06:03 years before it there was what was called the Great Leap Forward in the 1950s um where millions of people died to starvation but that was also covered up just as the what happened in Stalin's
05:06:15 up just as the what happened in Stalin's Russia was covered up um so the cultural revolution the version that comes to the West is um again I I Trump is the
05:06:29 West is um again I I Trump is the Perfect Analogy there's one version of trump that you can can see on Fox News and there's another version of uh Trump
05:06:41 and there's another version of uh Trump that you can see on CNN they're two diff totally different versions of the same story we have the same thing going on here so there's a reality which was the purges and all that was going on and
05:06:56 purges and all that was going on and then um there was the image of it which was
05:07:02 was um an ideology that we liked that attracted many
05:07:06 people could we have up please ucpi
05:07:31 6823 thank you it's it's paragraph three that I'm interested in this is a a report Dr Temple from a a Marxist leninist study group it's dated the 15th of May
05:07:39 of May 1974 as far as we're aware it's got nothing to do with the in lsf but it does appear to be a Marxist leninist group um I want to read paragraph three
05:07:53 group um I want to read paragraph three to you it says privacy during the course of his numerous interventions stated that when the Socialist Revolution took place some two million people in this country would have to be liquidated
05:08:07 country would have to be liquidated because it could never be converted to the cause of the Revolution and would present a permanent threat to its continuance he counted amongst these people such groups as senior police officers especially those in special Branch members of the security service
05:08:27 Branch members of the security service senior army officers big businessmen and all leading members of the conservative party my question is how how common were such views amongst the marxists you were mingling with in the late 60s and early
05:08:42 with in the late 60s and early 1970s oh absolutely not at all I've never heard anybody come out with such a statement now um I'm guessing here but I
05:08:53 statement now um I'm guessing here but I told you within the maist factions there were different factions and one group in particular was these totally crazy
05:09:05 particular was these totally crazy people called the Communist Party of England Marxist leninist this sounds like my guesses them or somebody very very
05:09:17 guesses them or somebody very very similar to them would have written do you know who the origin what organization wrote this all we know is it's a Marxist leninist study
05:09:32 it's a Marxist leninist study group okay as I said several times there are these different factions so the um reg bir Nick Bateson uh they had a bookstore somewhere in the camon town area and
05:09:45 somewhere in the camon town area and they were very normal sorts of people and you could talk to them very rationally Communist Party of Britain Marxist
05:09:56 Marxist leninist um the in lsf and Davin even in the craziest days they would never have written anything like this the this is lunacy and the only
05:10:08 this the this is lunacy and the only people with that level of lunacy now I would have known them seen them around at the time I was in the nlsf so 1971 now this is dated 1974 and
05:10:25 1974 and um this sounds very much like them they they fully qualify as a lunatic fringe and I wouldn't be altogether surprised to hear that they would have written something like
05:10:39 something like this I remember their paper um my God they would take their newspaper they would take stuff straight out of the Chinese media and then that
05:10:52 out of the Chinese media and then that was their entire paper stuff they just copied verbatim from Chinese Publications and then go around pubs in workingclass areas of London selling I
05:11:04 workingclass areas of London selling I remember one article it was two pages on Revolutionary Ways of growing tomatoes
05:11:16 Revolutionary Ways of growing tomatoes so they're walking around in Pub selling papers just full of this sort of stuff and expecting somebody sitting there having a drink in a pub to read a two-page article on Revolutionary Ways of growing tomatoes and then be totally one over to their thinking and then get up and say yeah
05:11:29 thinking and then get up and say yeah I'm going to go and kill all the all the me all the members of the police and the conservative party you know they were living In This Cloud CUO land that's an insult to
05:11:41 insult to cookus finally uh Dr Temple does that answer your question it does thank you finally a question which I'm sure the chairman wants me to ask you could you
05:11:52 chairman wants me to ask you could you tell us why you consider yourself still traumatized by your time with the in lsf I will be happy to do so on condition you
05:12:05 you cut the connection going to uh the media and the general public and anybody else I'm sorry I'm afraid we can't do that so in that case I shall have to call it a day Dr Temple you have been extremely patient with me I'm very grateful for
05:12:17 patient with me I'm very grateful for your assistance if you just stay there for a moment um the chairman may want to
05:12:33 for a moment um the chairman may want to say something to you and we have to have a a short break uh to give other people the opportunity to consult with their lawyers and to propose any questions
05:12:35 questions right Temple I'm not going to press the question um but I do have to wait for 10
05:12:50 question um but I do have to wait for 10 minutes to let anybody else who may have any question that they want councel to the inquiry to ask you to notify him would you mind um coming back in 10 minutes I'll just sit here and wait for your 10 minutes and uh to repeat what I said a minute ago if you or any of your colleagues out of curiosity
05:13:05 colleagues out of curiosity ofing the long-term impacts on me I would be delighted to answer any personal question it is personal information which is why it would be within a narrow group of people forgive
05:13:17 within a narrow group of people forgive me I had not realized that by asking the question uh that we were trespassing into personal matters I have no wish at all to do so okay you will hear
05:13:29 right then we'll break for 10 minutes
05:13:40 okay good evening everyone we will now take a break may I remind once again those in the virtual hearing room to remember to join their breakout rooms the time is now 655 p.m. so we will resume at 7:05 p.m. thank
05:14:00 you
05:24:26 good evening everyone and welcome back I will now hand over to the chairman to continue proceedings chairman
05:24:28 chairman M sir thank you there are no further questions for Dr Temple thank you very much and Dr Temple thank you very much
05:24:39 much and Dr Temple thank you very much for assisting the inquiry I'm grateful to you for putting yourself out to do that um your time with us is now ended thank you thank you very much I'm happy to help you thank
05:25:00 you thank you everyone the hearings have now finished for the day we will resume at 10: a.m.
05:25:29 tomorrow