This afternoon session opens with the closing minutes of former DCI HN216 Keith Edmondson's evidence, covering accountability for officers' misconduct, Special Branch's denied interest in lawful campaign groups, and gaps in his recollection of Met Commissioner congratulations to HN81. The remainder of the session begins Helen Steel's evidence about her three-year deceptive relationship with SDS undercover officer "John Dyn" (cover identity John Barker), examining his letters, his fabricated personal crises, the psychological toll of his manipulation, her years-long search to trace him afterwards, and her eventual devastating discovery that he had stolen the identity of a dead child.
00:21:10 This afternoon's proceedings, like this morning's are being transmitted over the live link, but after a 15minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them
00:21:21 Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 15 minutes of elapse. since the event that they're reporting they may not be used for photography or recording. Yes,
00:21:33 photography or recording. Yes, sir. Thank you. Um Mr. Titty, this morning I asked you about why why you didn't condemn the behavior of DC's boiling and Jenna in your operational
00:21:44 boiling and Jenna in your operational legends note. Um, your response was because that was not the intention or the point of the note that I think would
00:21:55 the point of the note that I think would have taken place elsewhere. Um, where and by whom? Where would that condemnation have taken place?
00:22:09 If that disciplinary route that you are referring to were to have taken place that would have been away from SDS because in a sense the two
00:22:21 away from SDS because in a sense the two gentlemen had already moved on. So that's probably what I meant. Who who would you have expected to initiate a disciplinary process given that the conducts complained of happened on SDS?
00:22:34 conducts complained of happened on SDS? The initial uh referral may have stemmed from SDS, but it
00:22:42 it uh would have gone it would have gone much further up. It would not have stayed in the SDS office. It would have gone it would not have stayed at SDS. It would have gone further up the chain. And can you speak to whether that in
00:22:54 And can you speak to whether that in fact happened? I can't. No. What would you have expected to have happened?
00:22:59 happened? I don't know. for the simple reason is that I didn't follow that strand of thinking. I followed what I thought was the something to look at which was the
00:23:10 the something to look at which was the safety um of for the undercover agents coming to the field. Thank you. Um could we show please MPS 072280
00:23:26 and page two please?
00:23:32 This is uh an interview you gave to Opern in July 2013 that we looked at earlier.
00:23:40 earlier. When I I asked you about accuracy of reporting
00:23:44 reporting and whether checks could be undertaking on reports that you produced to ensure they were accurate. Could we look please at the last sentence of paragraph one in
00:23:56 at the last sentence of paragraph one in this document? Um, you're talking about your background and I think it's in relation to being on the source unit of C squad and at the
00:24:08 the source unit of C squad and at the foot you say I recall that there was some sensitivity on the SDS about this as at the time as my sources were providing intelligence on the same area that undercover SDS officers were reporting on. Sometimes the intelligence
00:24:20 reporting on. Sometimes the intelligence corroborated but at other times there were slight differences that contradicted officers accounts. Now I appreciate by the time you're in the SDS you may not know how
00:24:32 the SDS you may not know how um that intelligence is treated but from your experience on C squad what would you do in the terms what would you do in the case of a conflict of evidence and how would you portion weight to those
00:24:43 how would you portion weight to those various accounts thank you um it wasn't a conflict of evidence what it would do is corroborate evidence or intelligence you already received it didn't make any
00:24:56 who provided that intelligence first. But when you when you're building an intelligence picture for something, the more information you can have on any given subject is good. And if there is a
00:25:09 given subject is good. And if there is a slight difference of opinion that could be down to as simply as it you telling me something and the lady next to you telling me something and that you will both tell me something in your own
00:25:20 both tell me something in your own particular ways.
00:25:24 Did you ever were you ever aware of intelligence coming in from the SDS when you were on C Squad about UCA's engaging in criminality or sexual relationships through other sources?
00:25:35 relationships through other sources? No, not at all.
00:25:41 I asked you about S uh the former wife of uh Mr. Jenna, and I asked you about the Christmas party. Um, did you or
00:25:53 the Christmas party. Um, did you or anyone else in the back office ever consider whether s deserved to know about um Mr. Jenner's um actions undercover?
00:26:06 undercover? No. No.
00:26:11 Did you ever suggest to Mr. Jenner that he ought to tell his wife about his infidelity?
00:26:19 No. And why was that? When? I mean, you were talking to me, I think, on two different time periods. Well, I'm talking to you now about
00:26:32 Well, I'm talking to you now about your discovery of Mr. Jenner's infidelity, which presum I think I understand came between April 2000 and October 2000, as far as you're aware.
00:26:41 aware. Yes. Yeah. Oh, probably because Mr. Jen had already left the field and once somebody had left the field I I had
00:26:52 once somebody had left the field I I had there was no further contact. So when you say probably, what do you mean by probably? You probably you would have told him or probably you didn't. I probably wouldn't have spoken. Sorry. Excuse me. Probably would not have spoken to him because he had left the
00:27:03 spoken to him because he had left the field.
00:27:08 I asked you about the passing on of congratulations from the commissioner to HN81
00:27:14 HN81 um in respect of um reporting in relation to the McFersonen inquiry.
00:27:21 What was the reason that you were given for why the commissioner wished to congratulate HN81?
00:27:39 I cannot recall specifically the substance of the congratulations, but it would most certainly have had to
00:27:51 but it would most certainly have had to do with the work that the person was conducting in the field. So you have no recollection of what you
00:28:02 So you have no recollection of what you said congratulations for what the um I'm sure I was told or or knew and looked this but I can't I cannot tell you now. It would be it would be unfair. I will be speculating.
00:28:13 unfair. I will be speculating. And so you cannot speak to what aspect of HN81's reporting he was particularly pleased with. Is that you're nodding that? Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:28:25 Yes. Yes. Yes. You will be aware of the murder of Michael Mensson in the late 1990s. Um, the investigation into the investigation of which was subsequently criticized by the PCA in 2002. Do do you recall that
00:28:39 the PCA in 2002. Do do you recall that murder?
00:28:39 murder? The the the the name definitely rings a bell. Um, the specifics, no. Was special branch available to provide intelligence in relation to lawful campaign groups?
00:28:51 campaign groups? No. Was that something that may have been general knowledge within the MPS? No. No, not at all. Was that something that on C squad you were ever asked to do?
00:29:04 were ever asked to do? possibly um in respect of if any demonstrations or protests or whatever or vigils whatever the case may be if they were happening on district on division um then
00:29:16 on district on division um then assessments would or be would be um asked special would be asked to provide assessments for local police but no specific intelligence no
00:29:26 no in relation to members of um campaigning groups none whatsoever. Uh so those are the rule 10 questions which which I've received to uh ask this witness. Um
00:29:38 witness. Um I believe
00:29:39 I believe is there any reexamination? No. Thank you, Mr. Ty. Thank you for coming to give evidence. Um I know that you have a a procedure ahead of you. Uh I wish you
00:29:52 procedure ahead of you. Uh I wish you the best of luck in that and I'm very grateful to you for coming to give evidence notwithstanding that you're awaiting it. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Uh we'll resume uh with our next witness
00:30:05 Uh we'll resume uh with our next witness Helen Steel and um we'll resume I hope uh at a quarter two uh but um possibly if I hope even more a little before.
00:30:16 if I hope even more a little before. Let's see.
00:47:30 still two things if I may before we start. Um, first you of course remain bound by the affirmation that you gave last time and secondly the intention is to sit until about 5 today. Would one
00:47:42 to sit until about 5 today. Would one break in the middle of that be enough for you or would you like more than one? Uh, uh, hopefully that's fine. Sorry. No hopefully one is fine. Right. So we'll try with one but if you need more than one just say so. Okay. Thank you.
00:47:54 Okay. Thank you. Yes.
00:47:55 Yes. Um actually could I just say something? Um
00:47:58 Um because you asked a question at the end of the
00:48:00 of the I did indeed hearing and um I have given it more thought but it's a little bit out of sequence at the moment because I kind of want to get to the end of the relationship so I can if I could deal with that later
00:48:11 with that later that would be good. Of course. Would you like like to do that this afternoon sometime? Um, yes, potentially. Yes. And you you say when when we get to it. Um, but the the other thing that I
00:48:23 Um, but the the other thing that I thought was that um if in the meantime we look at a document that you think shows some form of genuine um
00:48:34 shows some form of genuine um you know genuine feelings. Um it may be helpful if you ask a direct question about [laughter] that then. Um just so that I can deal with it at that point.
00:48:45 point. Let me give you what was um in my mind at the time and still is uh which is that I know for a fact that three of the relationships begun in cover identity
00:48:56 relationships begun in cover identity undercover have given rise to long-term relationships in real identity. Right. So that was the thing you were thinking of as opposed to I I thought you were asking a direct question about
00:49:07 you were asking a direct question about John Dyn and so I was a bit certainly not then. Right. Okay. All right. I I was thinking of not just his deployment and his relationship with you which about which
00:49:19 relationship with you which about which you've given extensive evidence which I've noted with care but the the others I mean the others now is perhaps not the time to do this.
00:49:30 now is perhaps not the time to do this. Take the moment when when when you've had time to reflect upon it and you want to speak about it and um it's probably best that we get it off both our minds today sometime we can do that. Yes. All right. Thank you.
00:49:41 Yes. All right. Thank you. Yes. Yes.
00:49:44 Yes. Yes. Miss Steel, on Friday at the end of your evidence, we were talking about your trip to Canterbury with John Dyn. Yes. From the 20th to the 22nd of December, 1991.
00:49:55 1991. And this was in the context of the fact that his deployment officially ended on the 8th of December, 1991. So, the fact that he continued to stay in contact with you and to see you after his
00:50:06 with you and to see you after his deployment officially ended. He did. He telephoned on a regular basis as well.
00:50:10 as well. Yeah.
00:50:11 Yeah. Um, and we looked at a photograph of him having shaved off his m shaved off his facial hair and cut off his mullet. Yes.
00:50:23 Yes. Um, I'd like to bring up please one of your exhibits, UCPI 39804.
00:50:34 This is a letter that he wrote to you that was dated the 29th of December 1991.
00:50:43 Uh we had a quick look at this on Friday, but just to recap, the first paragraph reads, "Hia hells canary seems ages ago. It's so long till I next see
00:50:55 ages ago. It's so long till I next see you. My fault, I know. Still, it'll be good. Just looking forward to it." If we could then look at the second paragraph, please.
00:51:07 please. Three lines up, he says, he gives you his address. Well, he purports to be at the Channel Tunnel site. He says, "This is really not the time to say this, but
00:51:18 is really not the time to say this, but I'm feeling the equivalent of you when you swell up. What a waste. That's why my writing is shaky." Can you help us m Miss M still with what he means by that or what you understood
00:51:30 he means by that or what you understood him to mean? Uh well I believe it's a sexual reference
00:51:37 and what a waste and illusion I presume to the fact you're not together. Yes. It's an indication that he wants to continue exploiting me for sex.
00:51:48 continue exploiting me for sex. Um, if we go on to page two, please
00:51:55 and paragraph three. Um,
00:52:00 Um, just from where it says he says, "Anyway, I had my MOT test and I'm still living. No syphilis, gonna ria, I presume that means NSU, etc., etc. No,
00:52:14 presume that means NSU, etc., etc. No, it wasn't just a social diseases check. And then he talks about some other checks that they did. Um, so it appears he's telling you that he had a amongst other things a test for sexually
00:52:25 other things a test for sexually transmitted diseases and that he's in the all clear. I I mean it seems that's what he's telling me, but bearing in mind this is in the context of a letter where he's
00:52:36 context of a letter where he's pretending to work on the Channel Tunnel.
00:52:39 Tunnel. Uh, I mean what is true, what is not true, I have no idea. Yeah.
00:52:45 Yeah. What did you make of that at the time if you can recall? Do you find it odd that he was telling you that he'd had these tests? Well, I think because he kind of implied it is was compulsory for working there,
00:52:59 it is was compulsory for working there, right?
00:52:59 right? I just sort of thought, oh, well, it's a bit weird, but anyway. Um, if we go on to page three, please.
00:53:09 So he's started a new section of the letter on Saturday the 4th of January. And he says
00:53:20 And he says here, "Well, not much point in posting this now, lovey. The days and nights are really dragging dragging. Sorry. And I'm missing you loads and loads." And then beginning of the next
00:53:32 And then beginning of the next paragraph, it's tomorrow now. I had to give in in the face of severe heckling. The things I have to endure because I'm in love with you. I think you're just about worth it. So again, the reference
00:53:43 about worth it. So again, the reference to the days and nights dragging, the nights in particular, did you understand that to be a reference to the fact that he wished he was spending the nights with you having sex? Yes. Uh I mean throughout this whole
00:53:55 Yes. Uh I mean throughout this whole time I was struggling because he would you know of all the contradictory messages really on the one hand saying he didn't he
00:54:06 on the one hand saying he didn't he couldn't cope with being with me on the other hand saying he wanted to be with me
00:54:10 me and it just kind of left me confused and distressed. Yes. I mean it's quite passionate actually.
00:54:18 actually. Yeah.
00:54:19 Yeah. And he writes also just in the middle of the page. I wish I was with you right now. Can't wait to see the caravan again.
00:54:27 again. Yes, confirming that he had moved to the caravan.
00:54:34 Um, you've preempted my next question, which was the emotional impact this had on you. So, I understand it was very confusing. He's given you a lot of mixed messages.
00:54:44 messages. It's very hard to make sense of what's going on. you know, I although we'd had the kind of um erratic period from sort of I don't know, August
00:54:55 from sort of I don't know, August onwards to November, the fact that he had committed to move to the caravan had made me think that, you know, the relationship was back on and then when he disappeared the next
00:55:07 and then when he disappeared the next day.
00:55:08 day. Yeah. Um, obviously that was devastating and
00:55:13 and you know,
00:55:14 you know, uh, but then he continues with these conflicting messages and he continued to phone me sort of every couple of days as well. It was frequent contact. Yeah, we'll look we'll look at some of that in more detail. So, um, if we look
00:55:27 that in more detail. So, um, if we look now at when he did return to the caravan,
00:55:31 caravan, which I understand to have happened between the 8th and the 12th of January, 1992.
00:55:36 1992. Yes.
00:55:39 Yes. You mentioned this on Friday, but you said that this visit was time to celebrate his what we now know to be his cover birthday, but what you believe to be his real birthday, which was the 9th
00:55:50 be his real birthday, which was the 9th of January, 1960. So, you understood him to be turning 32. Yes.
00:55:55 Yes. But in fact, he was 35. [snorts] Um, hang on. His his real birthday is the 24th of May, 55.
00:56:04 May, 55. [snorts]
00:56:04 [snorts] Yeah, but he's 5 years older than his cover identity. Uh,
00:56:09 Uh, yes, apologies. So, he was in fact turning 37. Yes.
00:56:15 Yes. Sorry, I'm terrible math. Um, the first night you spent together in the caravan when he returned, did you speak about your relationship?
00:56:26 speak about your relationship? We did. I mean, because of his behavior, I had been increasingly thinking
00:56:34 losing faith in believing that he was going to come back and thinking that it was over and that I just had to get used to that. Um, but when he came back, he
00:56:49 to that. Um, but when he came back, he convinced me that he did want to come back.
00:56:52 back. Um, and
00:56:57 I believed it. I don't know. And you say in your witness statement at paragraph 500 that he said to you that he'd been thinking things through and
00:57:08 he'd been thinking things through and that he wanted to come back for good. Yes. Well, that was the whole reason he he said he'd gone to France initially after he left the caravan was to clear his head and to think through what he wanted to do. And then when he went to
00:57:20 wanted to do. And then when he went to work on the Channel Tunnel, um the impression he gave me was again that he was like saving towards, you know, putting down a deposit on a bit of land and somewhere to live
00:57:32 a bit of land and somewhere to live together.
00:57:33 together. So,
00:57:35 So, I mean, it's it's hard to say now because all of it was so conflicting, but
00:57:43 but as I say in my statement when when he came back on on for his birthday, what I thought was his birthday, um, in light of what he said, I believed
00:57:54 in light of what he said, I believed that he wanted to make the relationship work again. Yeah.
00:58:01 He stayed at the caravan for 4 days. Were you having sex over that period? Um, yes, a a lot of sex. I mean, we had
00:58:13 Um, yes, a a lot of sex. I mean, we had sex every day and twice a day on some some occasions. Yeah. Um, and it was in general initiated by him.
00:58:24 general initiated by him. At the time, did you interpret that as a sign of his commitment to the relationship, of his ongoing affection? Uh,
00:58:33 Uh, well, I naively s saw it as a sign of his affection. Yeah. Again, I'm sorry to ask these sensitive questions, but did you use protection when you had sex?
00:58:47 I think possibly we didn't always that time actually because I seem to remember that I had my period around that time and that was supposed to be a safe time.
00:59:00 and that was supposed to be a safe time. So I think possibly not.
00:59:06 In your witness statement, you refer at paragraph 503, and this might help with that previous question, that um your diary records
00:59:17 question, that um your diary records that you woke up with period pains and that you were disappointed because you hoped that you might be pregnant.
00:59:23 pregnant. Yes.
00:59:27 And you say in your witness statement that
00:59:31 that you did [snorts] by this time want to have children and you thought that it might actually help settle the relationship. Yes. Because he um attributed
00:59:42 Yes. Because he um attributed this
00:59:45 this what appeared to be a breakdown that he was going through to the loss of his parents and feeling alone in the world. I thought that if he had, you know, if I was pregnant and we had we were looking forward to having a
00:59:56 had we were looking forward to having a child, it would give him something to kind of look forward to. Yeah.
01:00:01 Yeah. And maybe stop him feeling so alone in the world. Yes. Because at this stage, he's given you to understand. Yes. He has no parents
01:00:11 parents and no one else. Yes. And his real dad wasn't even his who he believe the person he believed to be his real dad wasn't his dad. Yes.
01:00:21 You describe how on the 12th of January 1992, you drove him to Barnsley station and that he told you he was going to visit his biological father.
01:00:32 visit his biological father. Yes.
01:00:32 Yes. And that he was presenting as being anxious and distressed again. Yes.
01:00:38 Yes. And repeated these claims about feeling alone and insecure. Yeah.
01:00:44 Yeah. Can you tell us, Miss Still, what you said to him, which I understand you said by way of trying to reassure him at the station.
01:00:52 station. Um,
01:00:54 Um, well, I'm embarrassed by this now. Um, because apart from anything else, it was against my principles, but he seemed to be going through such a level of
01:01:06 be going through such a level of distress.
01:01:15 Now, please take your time
01:01:28 that I ended up saying to him about the fact that he thought he was alone in the world and he was convinced that because his previous girlfriend had left him,
01:01:39 left him, I was going to do the same, right?
01:01:41 right? And so in order to reassure him and make him feel better, I said that if it made him feel better, I would be willing to get married, which was actually something I opposed marriage. So it was
01:01:53 something I opposed marriage. So it was like completely going against my principles to say that, but it's indicative of how much you wanted to reassure him and how much you cared about the relationship.
01:02:07 And you make the point in your witness statement that the fact that you said that and that it was so contrary to your principles was illustrative in a fact of how much you'd
01:02:18 illustrative in a fact of how much you'd lost yourself and your sense of self-esteem. Is that fair? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think I'd become dependent on
01:02:30 him for my Yeah. for my self-esteem to a large extent. Yeah. And I think you referred on Friday to the fact that you had you not completely
01:02:41 the fact that you had you not completely isolated yourself, but you had spent less time with your friends and more time with him. Yes. I mean, well, that was the other aspect. Not only had during the time that I was living with him in Clyde
01:02:53 that I was living with him in Clyde Circus, I got less involved with politics and saw other friends less frequently than I had prior to that. Um, but moving to the caravan in Yorkshire
01:03:04 but moving to the caravan in Yorkshire meant that I was actually away from all my long-term friends. And so, you know, obviously the people that were living in the small holding
01:03:15 the small holding were friends, but they weren't they I didn't kind of have the same like long-term relationship with them, and it wasn't easy to talk to them about how I was feeling. Um,
01:03:29 was feeling. Um, also because I was sort of keeping part of it from them as well because they had assumed that he was moving up there as well and um I didn't I wasn't quite sure what was
01:03:41 I didn't I wasn't quite sure what was going on with whether he was coming back or not and it just felt awkward having to
01:03:46 to talk about it. Yeah. Sorry.
01:03:50 You say in your witness statement at paragraph 510 that on the 13th of January, he rang you at 8 in the morning and told you that the meeting with his biological father had gone all right but
01:04:04 biological father had gone all right but doubted that he would see him again. And I'd now like to bring up a letter he wrote you in [clears throat] which he describes this meeting. Um this is UCPI 39805.
01:04:15 39805. [snorts]
01:04:17 It's dated the 13th of January 92. If we could go to page two, please. Paragraph one. Hello, Hells. Hope you're feeling and
01:04:29 Hello, Hells. Hope you're feeling and looking as lovely as ever. Hope your beautiful little thumb is healing well. Thanks for a great few days. It was great to be with you and live together again. And live
01:04:42 you and live together again. And live together again or just pause there. So that shows that He considered that we had lived together. Yes. Contrary to what he's claiming now. Yeah. Even if it was for such a short while. Oh well. Only 12 days to go.
01:04:56 while. Oh well. Only 12 days to go. Um what's that a reference to? Can you help us with that? Until the next time we were intending to meet
01:05:02 meet and I understand was that the bloody Sunday commemoration march. Uh [sighs and gasps] it's what it says in your witness statement. That helps. Sorry. So, [laughter] I thought that came later in the sequence, but if it's in my
01:05:13 the sequence, but if it's in my statement, I'm sure it's right. Um,
01:05:18 Um, he then continues. He says, "Thanks as well for the eight hot toasties, cheese, flapjack, orange, clementine, dates, macadamia, just might keep me going."
01:05:29 macadamia, just might keep me going." So, I take from that that you'd given him a lovely selection of food and snacks.
01:05:35 snacks. Yes. um the train because he'd complained about the food being pretty grim down at the Channel Tunnel. So, yeah. So, some food to take with him. Thoughtfully you'd provided him with a
01:05:46 Thoughtfully you'd provided him with a snack pack. Um just might keep me going for a while. The train journey back was a bit tedious.
01:05:53 tedious. Some boring details. He says, "Sorry if I didn't wave too long enough from the train."
01:05:58 train." Okay. Then bottom of the page, he says, "Well, my other dad seemed a reasonable sort. He's about 60 plus a bit. If we could go over the page, please.
01:06:11 could go over the page, please. Taller than yours truly. Pretty gaunt, pretty gray, smokes a lot. And then he talks about he tried to convince me that he and my mother were in love with each other because again, he'd given you to
01:06:22 other because again, he'd given you to understand they'd had an affair and he was the product of that affair. Yes.
01:06:27 Yes. I have no reason to not believe him. But of course, that must have been just for my benefit. He clearly felt guilty. Um, and then he talks about how he got to know his father. If we could go over
01:06:39 to know his father. If we could go over the page again, please.
01:06:45 Um,
01:06:48 he says, "The worst bit was when I told him they were both dead, meaning his mother and his father. That was real hard. Told him I had no brothers and sisters."
01:06:58 sisters." Um, I think I've missed a I think on the previous page he talks about how he was a postman. His dad. Yeah. Yeah. And then on page five
01:07:09 Yeah. And then on page five um he talks about he privacy. We've redacted his first name. Um how this supposed actual father has three kids, a son and two daughters.
01:07:22 has three kids, a son and two daughters. The [snorts] boy is a booking clerk on the tube. His youngest daughter is a nurse in Tuffnel Park and his other daughter is educationally backward and can't cope with the job. His wife is a cleaner.
01:07:33 cleaner. Now I understand from your witness statement that these details are actually accurate. Yes. About his real family that he grew up with. Yes. We'll come to how you establish the
01:07:46 We'll come to how you establish the accuracy of his father's profession. How did you establish the accuracy of his siblings
01:07:53 siblings situation? Well, in the course of my search to find out who he really was, I looked up a lot of things and um found
01:08:04 looked up a lot of things and um found out that information. Right.
01:08:07 Right. Um if we go to page six, please.
01:08:14 Um just at the top of the page, he said he's still talking about interacting with his real father. I wrote down our address and phone number. So again, our address and phone number. He took it but screwed it up and just
01:08:26 He took it but screwed it up and just said he couldn't see me again. I tried to make him feel all right about it. I went to shake hands with him, but he couldn't slash wouldn't. That was it. Oh well. It's not actually sunk in yet, but
01:08:38 well. It's not actually sunk in yet, but it's okay. So, he paints quite a poignant scene there. If it were real, it would be poignant.
01:08:47 poignant. Yes. I felt sad for him when I read this.
01:08:49 this. Yeah.
01:08:50 Yeah. Yeah. It's sad. And
01:08:55 I imagine as you were already quite concerned about your mental health, did this have an impact on those concerns? Yeah. Um I mean, you know, looking at it now, it's just incredible the lengths
01:09:07 now, it's just incredible the lengths that he went to. Uh
01:09:12 Uh I mean, making all don't know writing all this down. M yeah
01:09:19 yeah why like
01:09:22 why like yeah going into such detail
01:09:27 you describe how he phoned you again on the 16th of January but then you hadn't heard from him again and by the 20th of January you were getting anxious.
01:09:38 getting anxious. Yes.
01:09:40 Yes. If we could bring up please another letter from him, another one of your exhibits, UCPI 39806. Just to say in relation to that, um, that that's an illustration of how
01:09:52 that that's an illustration of how frequently he phoned me that by sort of two or three days later, well, by 3 days later, I'm getting worried because he hasn't been in contact. Thank you.
01:10:03 So in this letter, we'll look at some focus bits in due course, but this is a letter in which he's setting out the fact he is apparently in a state of some mental distress. If we could go to page
01:10:15 mental distress. If we could go to page four, please.
01:10:25 He says, "I can't take any more disappointments in life, my love. I'm leave. Well, I leaving presumably means I'm leaving London. All I want to take with me is the love I have for you. I want to put
01:10:37 the love I have for you. I want to put it in a bottle and screw a lid on it tightly and put it in my pocket. This way I can never lose it. I can never be hurt again. You're the only person I have left. I won't lose you as well or I
01:10:49 have left. I won't lose you as well or I can't Sorry, I can't I can't read that word, but it's I won't or I can't lose you as well. But I've lost hope in life. I'm just not meant to be lucky. So
01:11:00 I'm just not meant to be lucky. So again, reading that if it were written in good faith, that's quite troubling. I've lost hope in life. That makes him sound desperate. Yeah, it's highly emotive. Um I was very
01:11:11 Yeah, it's highly emotive. Um I was very worried for him. I mean, the other thing about this is that you'll see all the kind of splotched bits, which is what I took to be tear stains. Um which happened with the other emotive letters
01:11:23 happened with the other emotive letters that he wrote. Um, so he went to quite some lengths to
01:11:31 to carry on this deception.
01:11:35 Just carrying on that page. He said, "I've decided finally, cowardly perhaps, not to risk my feelings for Helen. She has never let me down. She If we could go over the page, please.
01:11:48 She's been so kind, so loving, so wonderful to me. the images I have of her are too beautiful to spoil. If that happened, I don't know what I'd do. So, that's pertinent to his claiming that
01:11:59 that's pertinent to his claiming that you never reciprocated any emotions, that you were cold. Yes, it's a complete line. Um, if we go to page six, please.
01:12:16 Will you please remember, Helen, that I never lost my love for you? That I've never loved anyone else like I love you. that I'll never love anyone else again like I love you. And again the the blurry bits I understand were what you
01:12:27 blurry bits I understand were what you understood to be tear stains. Yes.
01:12:34 So my impression on reading this was that he was in a very distressed state. Um and so of course I was worried for him but also the fact that he was you
01:12:45 him but also the fact that he was you know going overboard on expressing his love for me Yeah. made me feel that he did still care about me and that, you know, if we could work through whatever it was that
01:12:56 could work through whatever it was that was causing him this distress, Yeah.
01:12:58 Yeah. that the relationship could could be sorted out and both of us would be happy as a result of that. So, that was what I was trying to do.
01:13:09 trying to do. Yes. I mean, again, certainly he seems he's giving the impression of being passionately in love with you. Yeah. But troubled. Um, if we go to page seven, please.
01:13:23 He writes at the top of the page, "I don't know where I'm going." So, he's conveying the sense that he's going to disappear, run away. [snorts] I don't know where I'm going, but not to New Zealand and definitely not to Derby.
01:13:35 Zealand and definitely not to Derby. Yes. Which now I can see is him telling me,
01:13:39 me, "Don't go looking in Derby." I think by I think that probably means that by this point I had told him that I had been to the
01:13:48 the um house where that was on the birth certificate. Yeah.
01:13:52 Yeah. For John Barker. Um because I know that I did tell him that on one occasion that I'd been there.
01:13:59 there. And so I'm assuming that he's written this here to put me off going back there.
01:14:03 there. To warn you off. Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:05 Yeah. Um we can take that down now. Thank you. Um, you say in your witness statement at paragraph 522 that the impact this letter had upon you was that you broke
01:14:16 letter had upon you was that you broke down crying for ages and you say that you felt you no longer wanted to be alive.
01:14:21 alive. Yes, it was a very difficult time. Um,
01:14:28 you say that in your diary you made a note that it seemed ridiculous that only nine days previously you were talking about buying a house and living together.
01:14:36 together. Yeah. which lays bare the extent of the mixed messaging. Yes. Yes. I mean actually now looking back on it I can see that happened
01:14:47 back on it I can see that happened again. That that's the second time that that happened because I wrote something similar in August. Um but at the time I didn't remember it and put that together. It's only because of subsequently going through my [clears throat] diaries that I've I've
01:15:00 [clears throat] diaries that I've I've realized that you also describe at paragraph 523 the longer term impact. You say that you were depressed. You had to force yourself to do normal tasks that
01:15:12 yourself to do normal tasks that [snorts] you limited social interactions that you felt distressed and humiliated. Yes.
01:15:22 On Sunday the 26th of January 1992, you say that you rang director inquiries and got phone numbers for all the Wolston homes in Oakland and then started to
01:15:34 homes in Oakland and then started to ring them. Yes, that's the um surname of the woman that he'd said was his aunt and because he hadn't been in contact for several days and I was worried about him because of the state of the le
01:15:47 him because of the state of the le his apparent state as set out in the letter. I I thought I've got to do something to try and find out if he's okay.
01:15:55 okay. That you preempted my next question. You also say in your witness statement that now that you know that Dorothy Wolfenholm was his mother-in-law. Yes. Yes.
01:16:04 Yes. Yes. That you now actually feel bad about having made this phone call, even though of course you were making it in absolute good faith at the time. Yes,
01:16:13 Yes, I do. I mean, um, yes, probably that I mean, I don't remember what I said during that phone call, but probably that was not as bad as me
01:16:24 probably that was not as bad as me turning up on her doorstep a few years later and it then being apparent to her that I was in a relation I had been in a relationship with him. um and the implications of that for how she felt
01:16:36 implications of that for how she felt about her daughter having been deceived. Well, quite. And you say in your witness statement actually that you said to her when you rang her, you said you asked her to tell John Barker that you loved
01:16:49 her to tell John Barker that you loved him and you wanted him to ring you. So that would have given that would have done. Yes. Yes. I mean because I had spoken to her briefly during the time we were living in um
01:17:02 during the time we were living in um Clyde Circus. There was a time when at least one time when she rang and asked to speak to him and I'd picked up the phone so we spoke briefly. Um
01:17:12 Um I didn't really think that much of calling her. Um yeah, it just felt like well she already knows we're in a relationship so it's no big deal. Yeah, I understand. That's an important clarification actually cuz you already
01:17:24 clarification actually cuz you already had interacted with her. Yes.
01:17:28 Yes. Um if we could bring up please another exhibit, another letter UCPI 39807. This is dated the 29th of January 1992.
01:17:40 This is dated the 29th of January 1992. It's postmarked Luton. Page two, please.
01:17:51 and he's written, "I should probably stop saying these sorts of things, as in loving professions of love, but I can't I can't stop loving you either. I'm sorry. It's also confusing." If we could
01:18:03 sorry. It's also confusing." If we could go over the page. So again, that shows he's got some awareness of the impact it's having on you. He says, "It's not that I don't believe what you said in Ireland." So, we talked about that on
01:18:14 Ireland." So, we talked about that on Friday. That was on the beach when I talked about wanting to be pregnant by him. Yeah. In the caravan. So, I think you've just referred to that about planning your life together
01:18:25 life together and on Barnsley station, which is again what you referred to when you said you would be willing to marry him. Yeah.
01:18:33 Yeah. I do believe you held I know that's how you feel. And then if we could go to page three, please. Four lines up from the bottom.
01:18:46 Um,
01:18:56 well, he talks about pushing your feelings too far. I think it's actually um he says that he'd be jealous if if I had a relationship when he parted. So again,
01:19:08 relationship when he parted. So again, that was another indication that he still had strong feelings for me. Um, and you know, wanted to be in a relationship with me. Uh,
01:19:19 relationship with me. Uh, and now that I know that in fact he was his deployment had ended, he knew that there was no future together. Um, that's a really manipulative and nasty thing to
01:19:32 a really manipulative and nasty thing to do. I mean, all of it's Yeah.
01:19:35 Yeah. to be honest, I think it's sadistic, this behavior, but now looking back at it,
01:19:41 when did he say to you that he'd be jealous if you had a relationship? When you parted? Was that at the caravan? I don't know if I [clears throat] can remember when it was. I do do remember
01:19:52 remember when it was. I do do remember that he did say it at some point. Fine.
01:19:56 Fine. Um, sorry, it's on the previous page. Just another bit I wanted to highlight. So, sorry, page two. Yes, just at the bottom where he says, "Lovey, I'm really hurting, but I know you're hurting just
01:20:07 hurting, but I know you're hurting just as much." And again, I just wanted to flag that because again, that shows that he was well aware of how much distress he was putting me through. Can I just mention here because that's been privacy redacted, but it
01:20:19 been privacy redacted, but it to make sense of it, you need to know that that's the person who his he was saying was his biological father. So he's saying that the meeting with his biological father I understand
01:20:30 I understand hadn't gone well and so he's he's basically referring to that distress.
01:20:35 distress. I understand. But that makes sense. That does help. Um if we could just go on to page five, please.
01:20:45 Um he says, "I'll come to see you. I've tried Norm a few times." And then a little further down, he said, "I've had four to five pretty torid days just
01:20:56 four to five pretty torid days just strolled about." Um, and again, I understand from your witness statement, from your evidence on Friday, that this would appear to be a reference to his claiming to just walk the streets all
01:21:08 claiming to just walk the streets all night when he's feeling distressed. Yes. And
01:21:11 And so, it was again another thing that caused me to worry about him. Yeah. Um,
01:21:16 Um, and now, you know, I feel like I can be fairly fairly confident he was back at home in bed with his wife and um, not in a state of distress.
01:21:27 not in a state of distress. Yes. And back working at Scotland Yard. Yes, indeed. Yes. Um, yes. Sorry, just I was my page references were out. The reference to being jealous is on page four of this document. I just want to say that for
01:21:38 document. I just want to say that for the transcript. This is just a quick question. And on page six, he refers to, "Can I hang on to the sleeping bag?" So, had you also given him a sleeping bag that he'd kept? Yes. Um, he'd borrowed my sleeping bag
01:21:51 Yes. Um, he'd borrowed my sleeping bag supposedly to use it at work cuz he said he was living in a caravan on a on a site at this point, I think. Yeah, he refers to that.
01:22:03 Yeah, he refers to that. Yeah.
01:22:03 Yeah. In this correspondence, um, you say in your witness statement that he then rang on the 2nd of February. you spoke for 25 minutes and that you arranged to meet in Scotland
01:22:15 that you arranged to meet in Scotland and to go to Barra again. Yes. So the idea of going to Barra was that um we could maybe try and talk through
01:22:24 through the difficulties and work out a way forward that wasn't going to continue causing so much distress. And of course that was the site of your
01:22:35 And of course that was the site of your previous idilic Yes.
01:22:37 Yes. blissful
01:22:38 blissful holiday together. You also say in your witness statement that after you spoke to him, you rang Aunt Dorothy again because you wanted to let her know that she was all right. Is that correct?
01:22:49 that correct? Yes.
01:22:53 And again, when she spoke to you, how did she sound? Did she sound friendly? Was she standoffish?
01:23:01 Can you recall? I can't remember now. Sorry. Moving on now to the trip to Scotland. the 5th of February 92. You say that you
01:23:12 the 5th of February 92. You say that you met Dyn at Edinburgh station. Yes.
01:23:15 Yes. That's paragraph 543.
01:23:20 Dyn was staying in a B&B, but you were staying at your sister's flat that night because you were having dinner with her. Yeah.
01:23:28 Yeah. Did you feel you could talk to your sister about what was going on with John Barker or did you No, I don't think I did. I think um I felt like I didn't really know what was
01:23:39 felt like I didn't really know what was going on myself, let alone being able to try and explain it to someone else. On the 6th of February, that was a Thursday, you took the train to Oben. You got a ferry to Barra.
01:23:51 You got a ferry to Barra. Um once you got to Barra together, what did you do in terms of your activities? Uh well, the weather obviously wasn't anywhere near as nice as when we'd gone the first time. Um I mean, we went
01:24:03 the first time. Um I mean, we went walking.
01:24:04 walking. Yeah. did a bit of cycling. Um, but kept getting rained on and so went back to the cottage and would be talking and
01:24:15 the cottage and would be talking and Yeah.
01:24:16 Yeah. And were you having sex? Yes.
01:24:19 Yes. Was he instigating that sex uh in the main? Yes. I mean, he kept throughout this again. He I mean the whole thing was
01:24:30 whole thing was he kept professing his love for me and saying he wanted to be with me but also saying he felt like I was going to walk out on him and so he felt insecure and
01:24:42 and so he felt insecure and um
01:24:45 um uh that
01:24:48 uh that he wanted to end the relationship before I ended it. I mean, it didn't make any sense, but I think I was just
01:25:03 so confused and and and yeah, I don't know. And you described you're very invested in this relationship by this stage. Well, you know, he Yeah, he had
01:25:23 he'd spent all that time grooming me and then lovebombing me and mirroring my interests. And it it did feel for a long time that it was like a perfect
01:25:35 time that it was like a perfect relationship. Um, and so of course I was invested in it and wanted it to continue.
01:25:42 continue. Um, and the fact that he kept going and coming back
01:25:50 it it it
01:25:53 was just very distressing when he left. And so when he came back it was like I don't know it was like an emotional roller coaster.
01:26:04 Yeah. And the relief I imagine when he did come back. Yeah. The relief and and a sense of comfort as well. Like I I I mean it's hard to explain, but Well, you're explaining it well. I mean,
01:26:15 Well, you're explaining it well. I mean, I I understand in so far as I am able what that must have been like. You describe in your witness statement,
01:26:26 You describe in your witness statement, I think, what you just referred to, sitting on his lap, a a specific memory with your arms around him and him making these comments about not being able to handle the thought of you leaving him. Yes.
01:26:36 Yes. And wanting to end the relationship. And you say that something flashed inside you. I think because it didn't make any sense. And
01:26:49 in your sort of state of disorientation, you asked him to be honest because you sensed that he wasn't being upfront with you.
01:26:57 you. Is that an accurate depiction? Yes. I mean, I I wasn't able to put my finger on what I felt was wrong, but I did by this stage. which I did I don't know in the back of
01:27:09 which I did I don't know in the back of my mind I felt there's something wrong about this. I mean I think I'd had that feeling before as well but um
01:27:18 um but at this particular moment in time I
01:27:24 yeah I just ended up um I remember I I thought about um during the time
01:27:37 during the time We were about to move out of flat in Clyde Circus. Yeah.
01:27:42 Yeah. Um and he had been behaving erratically and saying that he was staying elsewhere and not coming home at night. And there would there had been the night when he said he'd been staying in a hostel and I'd found a hostel.
01:27:54 I'd found a hostel. And
01:27:56 And because of that being I think was the first real sense I had of he's definitely lied to me. Um,
01:28:07 definitely lied to me. Um, my mind flashed back to that and I don't know what put this thought in my head, but I suddenly thought, could he be an undercover policeman? And so I ended up saying, well, it it was
01:28:22 so I ended up saying, well, it it was like on the tip of my tongue to say that um that
01:28:28 um that asking him to be honest with me because it
01:28:33 it the fact that he kept lying about walking the streets at night and I was really worried about that. Um,
01:28:42 I just felt like I wanted wanted him to be honest with me and and it it was on the tip of my tongue to say Yeah.
01:28:49 Yeah. Sorry, I'm a bit um
01:28:52 a bit um No, don't worry. This is important. But I understand that you didn't say that to him. No, because at the moment when I thought I should say it, I just thought
01:29:03 thought I should say it, I just thought that's such a that's such a devastating accusation to put to somebody. Um, and I also felt I'm in the middle of nowhere
01:29:15 also felt I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own with him. I I I don't I mean all this happened so fast it was like a flash in my mind but I remember feeling both a mixture of I can't accuse the person who I love of being an undercover
01:29:27 person who I love of being an undercover policeman
01:29:28 policeman and also if I did I'm on my own with him in a remote place and I I you know it was all very fast and so I just he had asked me what my fears
01:29:40 I just he had asked me what my fears were.
01:29:41 were. Yeah. Um, and I just made up an answer which was that you're having an affair. But it's it's a um it's a very clear memory and in fact
01:29:55 um it's a very clear memory and in fact I've just in the last week when I was asked to find a particular letter. Yeah.
01:30:00 Yeah. Um
01:30:02 Um in the course of that I found some more letters that I sent to him in 2003 and I actually referred to it in that letter. Right. I understand. will receive or process those letters.
01:30:14 receive or process those letters. I'm sorry. Um
01:30:18 Um the next morning, so this is the Sunday. This is the 9th of February. You say that you talked and he said that he wanted to leave the next day. Yes.
01:30:29 Yes. So leave the holiday prematurely.
01:30:36 Again, I imagine that was incredibly discombobulating and distressing. It was distressing. Yes. And he then said that he would actually stay.
01:30:47 stay. Yes. I I mean I I was very upset and I cried. Um and then at some point he said he would stay. Um
01:31:00 and that happened a couple of times more on that holiday that he would chop and change his mind. But throughout all that time, he continued wanting to have sex with me.
01:31:11 with me. Yeah. Well, my next question was going to be you refer to an incident in your witness statement where in the night between the 9th and the 10th, the
01:31:22 between the 9th and the 10th, the Monday, that he touched you sexually in the night, even though he'd been messing you around, saying that he wanted to leave. Yes. Wasn't sure about the future. and that
01:31:34 Wasn't sure about the future. and that you expressed your disqu about this. Is that right? Yes. I felt um I felt that if he didn't want the relationship to continue, he shouldn't
01:31:46 relationship to continue, he shouldn't still be seeking sex from me. And how did he react to that? I mean, it's hard to say because I also had
01:31:59 hard to say because I also had conflicting feelings because um
01:32:04 um I didn't want the relationship to end.
01:32:08 Uh [sighs]
01:32:11 and also
01:32:15 I was in a state of distress and so there's a level in which I mean a bit as I'd said before if you are I don't know that it is crazy going to
01:32:29 I don't know that it is crazy going to seek comfort from the person who's causing you distress but that is essentially what was going on. Yeah. And also I can understand it's so confusing that on the one hand you want him to stay. You want the you want to please him to some extent, but on the
01:32:41 please him to some extent, but on the other hand there's obviously some part of you that's I'm starting to feel I was starting to feel used. Yes. That this wasn't right. Yes.
01:32:51 Yes. You describe how later that day you went to the shops in Castle Bay. He again said he wanted to leave. Yes.
01:32:58 Yes. And that you sat down and cried, but then he didn't leave. Then the following day you walked up Ben Obi. That's how you pronounce it. I think so.
01:33:07 think so. Um I think you had sex that night. Yes.
01:33:12 Yes. And then the following day on the Wednesday, the 12th of February, you left Barra and you returned to Edinburgh, arriving at the B&B at 9:30 p.m.
01:33:22 p.m. And you've produced a receipt from that bed and breakfast. [snorts] Yes. Um,
01:33:30 Yes. Um, I don't think we need to bring it up, but I'll read it out for the transcript. It's UCPI 39882.
01:33:38 And I mean that very clearly shows it's signed by John Barker and it's the date is clearly from two months after his deployment. Yes.
01:33:52 And that night in the bed and breakfast, did you have sex? We did. Um, again, I felt very conflicted about it because, as I say,
01:34:03 conflicted about it because, as I say, on the one hand, um, I I was starting to feel like I was being used, but on the other hand, I still have feelings for him. And obviously, the intimacy was
01:34:19 in some way comforting.
01:34:23 [snorts] on Thursday the 13th of February, you describe how he tried to initiate sex that morning, but then you did basically when we woke up. Yeah.
01:34:33 Yeah. Um which was when he would in general often initiate sex. Um but by this time he'd said that he was intending to leave,
01:34:43 leave, right?
01:34:44 right? Uh and so I remember that I pushed him away.
01:34:51 Um, I was feeling very upset
01:34:57 and and
01:35:03 don't know. Yeah. Well, exact. I mean, that's what you say in your witness, Damon, that he said he was leaving that day and as far as you were concerned, you thought that might be the last time you saw him. Yes. And it felt like how can you want I
01:35:16 Yes. And it felt like how can you want I mean obviously it's very naive now but um how can you claim to want to leave me but still want to have sex cuz to me sex was about you know that the intimacy and
01:35:28 was about you know that the intimacy and the relationship and um
01:35:33 um I don't I mean it's all just like it's all the conflicting messages that he was giving and I became very confused by Well, an expression of the love that he
01:35:44 Well, an expression of the love that he claimed he felt in his many, many letters that he sent you.
01:35:54 We did end up having sex in the end, right?
01:35:59 Um,
01:36:08 if we look now at your last encounter with him. So you describe in your witness statement at paragraph 575 how you were back in London for a miel
01:36:19 you were back in London for a miel meeting and you were staying with a friend
01:36:23 friend and that on the 7th of March 1992 he came over to see you there and that together you babysat your friend's son.
01:36:34 together you babysat your friend's son. Yes.
01:36:36 Yes. and you talked and then he left at 11 p.m.
01:36:41 p.m. Those conversations, was that about your relationship, about the end of your relationship? Can you recall in the main? Yes. I mean, I think we also talked about what he was up to, what I was up to, but a lot of it was
01:36:53 what I was up to, but a lot of it was spent talking about whether or not there was a future for the relationship. And did he give you the impression there was a future for the relationship? Uh, I think it was a conflicting message
01:37:04 Uh, I think it was a conflicting message again. So on the one hand he'd say that he wanted to be with me. On the other hand he'd say that he couldn't handle it.
01:37:10 it. Right. And was he presenting as mentally unwell or at least distraught or as fairly together? Um
01:37:18 Um I mean throughout the time from when um we last saw each other in Edinburgh. Yeah. He had phoned me regularly and
01:37:30 Yeah. He had phoned me regularly and also written letters to me again which alternated between um saying how much he wanted to be with me and then saying he couldn't be with
01:37:41 me and then saying he couldn't be with me.
01:37:42 me. Um so it was all just a kind of continuation of that.
01:37:48 You describe how he returned on the 8th of March 1992 and that you walked to Alexandra Palace Park and had a walk in the park and that
01:38:01 Park and had a walk in the park and that you saw him off onto the tube at Turnpike Lane at 8:00 p.m. So that was the 8th of March 92. And that was the last time you saw him. Yes. In his undercover identity.
01:38:13 Yes. In his undercover identity. In his undercover Yes. Sorry. John Barker. I should make that clear. Yeah. Um, he handed you a letter. Um, I'm not going to bring up that letter, but I do understand there
01:38:25 letter, but I do understand there followed a number of letters and calls from that last in-person encounter in his undercover identity, and that you continued to receive letters up until
01:38:36 continued to receive letters up until late April 1992. Um, I'll bring this one up. So this is UCPI
01:38:45 UCPI 39811.
01:38:50 You received this on the 14th of March 1992.
01:38:57 And he writes, "Not sure you'll like this card." The picture on the front that is, it's the best I could find. Hope you're okay, Hells. The weekend with you did me real good. So that's the weekend we've just talked about.
01:39:11 weekend we've just talked about. Little by little maybe. Now you talk in your witness statement about your reaction to this bit in particular. Yes. Um, so
01:39:22 Yes. Um, so what he seemed to be saying here was that if we took it gradually, things might work out. That he was getting
01:39:35 overwhelmed by if we spent a lot of time together, his fears that I was going to leave him. Yeah.
01:39:45 Yeah. but that if we met up occasionally he could cope with that sort of thing, right?
01:39:53 right? I think that's what I understood by it. Um, and obviously since the time when he was supposed to move into the caravan with me,
01:40:04 with me, um, well, I saw him in December, in January, in February, and in March, so probably once a month I was seeing him. Yeah.
01:40:14 Yeah. And it felt like he was saying that if we continued to see each other once a month for an indefinite period of time that he might be able to sort his head
01:40:25 that he might be able to sort his head out,
01:40:27 out, right? And I remember just thinking because I had asked him to go to relationship counseling with me to try and work through whatever it was that
01:40:38 and work through whatever it was that was going on in his head because I felt completely out of my depth and he didn't want to do that. Um and then I tried giving him the books in the hope that he would um
01:40:49 in the hope that he would um yeah,
01:40:50 yeah, you know, read them, think about them and maybe get help from himself in some way. uh
01:40:58 uh and that here he seemed to be saying that if he just continued to see me once a month, things might work themselves out. And so I remember it hit me at a particularly low point and I just felt a
01:41:11 particularly low point and I just felt a bit like I was being well correctly um messed around and used um and so I ended up writing him a letter.
01:41:24 and so I ended up writing him a letter. Yeah.
01:41:25 Yeah. Um, I don't have a copy of that, so I don't remember exactly what I said, but basically, um,
01:41:36 uh, kind of expressing frustration and that he wasn't doing more to sort himself out. Um, and I posted it and then within moments of putting it in the post box, I I felt kind of consumed with
01:41:48 post box, I I felt kind of consumed with guilt that I'd not been understanding enough,
01:41:51 enough, right? Um, and I went back to the caravan and wrote another letter. Um, you know, kind of trying to undo everything I'd said in in that letter.
01:42:02 everything I'd said in in that letter. Right.
01:42:04 Right. And you felt guilty because you believed he was in a state of mental distress, that he was struggling emotionally. Yes.
01:42:12 Yes. And you didn't want to make it worse. Yes. Um,
01:42:17 Yes. Um, again, you set out in your witness statement in very helpful detail that he then wrote to you and rang you and
01:42:28 he then wrote to you and rang you and said that he was unable that he hadn't been able to pick up this letter. Yes, it went on for quite a while. I think that um because the only way I had of communicating with him was he would give me like post restaurant addresses.
01:42:41 give me like post restaurant addresses. I didn't have a phone number for him. I didn't have a proper address for him. So, um, he could phone me whenever he wanted. He could write to me whenever he
01:42:52 wanted. He could write to me whenever he wanted, but the only thing I could do to communicate with him was to send letters to a post restaurant.
01:43:02 Yeah. So, he had full control over the Yes. over
01:43:06 Yes. over frequency of at least the telephone communication. Um, and even Yes. If you're writing to a post response, you have no idea. Yes. When and if he's going to pick it up. Exactly. And and like, you know, here
01:43:17 Exactly. And and like, you know, here he's
01:43:19 he's after this, sorry. He then says about, "Oh, he hasn't been to pick it up." Yeah.
01:43:24 Yeah. Um and I had no way of knowing whether or not that was true. But in retrospect, I I think that he had actually picked it up, but he wasn't sure what to do about it,
01:43:35 it, right?
01:43:35 right? Um because it was potentially going to be the end of him being able to continue to see me and um exploit me.
01:43:46 um exploit me. Yeah. Yeah. You refer also to a and you exhibit a card that he sent you on the 28th of March where he gave you a specific time that he would ring you. We don't need to
01:43:58 that he would ring you. We don't need to bring it up, but I'll just mention the reference. It's UCPI 39813 where he said he'd ring you at 4:30 to 5:00 p.m. on the 1st of April.
01:44:11 4:30 to 5:00 p.m. on the 1st of April. Talks about having a few grim days and
01:44:15 and said he was getting a lift up to training, but I understand that he didn't ring you on that date. That's right. And that you were then deeply concerned. I was very worried because because I
01:44:26 I was very worried because because I think by then I can't remember all the letters but anyway I was worried about his mental state and the fact that he hadn't contacted me. I mean, there were points when I I was
01:44:38 I mean, there were points when I I was worried that he he I mean, he just seemed to be being so kind of reckless with his health, like walking the streets at night, and also he talked about drinking and so I
01:44:51 also he talked about drinking and so I was worried about whether or not he had a drink problem. Um, I just Yeah, I was worried about him. So, I went to look for him and I
01:45:00 and I in train.
01:45:01 in train. Yes. I I borrowed Norman's car and I drove around I drove to Ting and I drove around the building sites because he told me he was working on bu build built
01:45:12 told me he was working on bu build built road building sites around Ting at that time.
01:45:15 time. So I drove around the road building sites that I could find and asked at the gates if they had I showed them a photograph and asked if they'd seen him. Yeah.
01:45:23 Yeah. And none of them had obviously but one of them said come back at the end of the day.
01:45:29 day. Yeah. and you might see him coming out. Um, so I hung around to do that and in the meantime I phoned the woman that I
01:45:40 the meantime I phoned the woman that I was staying with in London. Yeah.
01:45:42 Yeah. Um, and I was told that he had called there and asked to speak to me. Um, I think I made a second phone call. There was
01:45:54 call. There was that during one of the phone calls I was told that he had said he he had been given a message that I would I would be back at her house.
01:46:05 would I would be back at her house. Yeah.
01:46:05 Yeah. Later.
01:46:06 Later. And he said um it would be too late. And so then I became extremely worried about what he meant by too late and was he planning to kill himself. And you seriously thought that might be
01:46:18 And you seriously thought that might be Yes.
01:46:19 Yes. a possibility. Yes.
01:46:22 Yes. Um,
01:46:27 so I'm aware of the time. It might be time for a break. Certainly. Um, would you like a break now?
01:46:35 now? I've got no idea of what the time is. Um,
01:46:37 Um, it's nearly 10 to 4. So if we have a break now for 10 15 minutes, that'll give you an hour session.
01:46:44 session. Okay. Yes. Thank you. Content with that. If you'd rather carry on now,
01:46:49 on now, might be a good idea actually. Thank you. Okay. Right. And 10 to 15 minutes whenever anybody is ready. Thank you.
02:08:48 And Mr. Still, just before the break, we were talking about what was going on at the end of March 1992, and you recounted getting a message from your friend from
02:08:59 getting a message from your friend from John Dy saying it would be too late if you contacted him subsequently. If I could bring up please UCPI 39814.
02:09:11 If I could bring up please UCPI 39814. This is another letter from Dyn received on Monday the 6th of April 1992.
02:09:18 1992. This is a 10page long letter. We can see just from that envelope that the return address is director general department of home affairs Ptoria South Africa.
02:09:29 of home affairs Ptoria South Africa. Um actually that's my handwriting. Oh is that your handwriting? Yeah. And what had happened?
02:09:36 So, I had gone back to my friend's house. Yeah.
02:09:42 Yeah. Um and been really worried about what's happening. I think possibly he had said he was putting a letter in the post, right?
02:09:50 right? Um and so I was hoping a letter would turn up and it didn't turn up the next day,
02:09:56 day, right?
02:09:56 right? And it didn't turn up. I think it was it didn't turn up Friday and the Saturday and that meant that I had to wait until the Monday and the whole of that time I
02:10:08 the Monday and the whole of that time I was just like really really worried about
02:10:10 about Yeah.
02:10:11 Yeah. you know what happened to him.
02:10:17 So you receive this finally on the Monday
02:10:21 Monday and it's one of these letters where he writes a number of letters. He writes them on different dates. Um, if we could go to page two, please.
02:10:34 I understand from your witness statement as well that in this letter he acknowledges the letter you wrote him in which you expressed your frustration with him
02:10:45 with him that you described before the break. Yes.
02:10:50 Yes. [snorts]
02:10:51 [snorts] So, under the entry of Monday the 30th of March, he's again expressing his love for you. I love you more than anyone I've ever ever loved. Helen, that's not an exaggeration. It's honestly totally
02:11:03 an exaggeration. It's honestly totally true.
02:11:06 true. If we could go to page three, please.
02:11:11 At the top of the page, he says, "I don't know how really to start this. I've got a pile of cards and letters from you and have gone to the pub at Winkwell,
02:11:21 Winkwell, which is the one that we went to at the start of the relationship." So, he's trying to like evoke happy memories in me. [sighs] Yes, you told us about that on Friday when you went for the walk by the canal
02:11:33 when you went for the walk by the canal and the reference to the pile of letters and cards again that undermines his claim that he makes elsewhere that you never reciprocated. I never expressed any emotional Yes.
02:11:43 Yes. Yeah.
02:11:43 Yeah. that he sent you all these letters and cards and you never Yeah.
02:11:47 Yeah. reciprocated those. Um page four, please. The final paragraph. [snorts]
02:12:01 and he is talking about his mental turmoil. He's saying what I said about your influence on me, I meant I didn't want to be persuaded by you short term. I wanted to be convinced by me. If we could go over, please,
02:12:14 could go over, please, you don't have to convince me to love you. And then if we just skip down a bit, he says, "I just wanted to love someone and be loved, but the truth is until I met you,
02:12:25 loved, but the truth is until I met you, I never was. No, not my father and not my mother either. I always pretend that that I always pretended that was not the case. That she is and I got on great. That she and I, sorry, got on great.
02:12:37 That she and I, sorry, got on great. That was slash is crap. I was blamed for my mother being pregnant outside marriage. I've got little now scars from being slashed with a chopping knife as a kid.
02:12:49 kid. If we could go over the page, please. When she got in a rage, I was the butt of her frustrations. Yes, she ran the Plunket Society. I understand that to be a charitable
02:13:02 a charitable organization. So he had told me um sometime during the relationship that his mom um did work for or voluntary work for the Plunket Society in New Zealand. It's a New Zealand charity
02:13:16 Zealand. It's a New Zealand charity um that helps with children in difficult circumstances. I think it's something to do with either children or um
02:13:28 um I understand it's helping people in rural communities. He he definitely described it as something to do with children,
02:13:35 children, right?
02:13:36 right? I can't remember exactly what it was, but
02:13:38 but Well, that would make sense sense in this context, in the sense of she was nice to
02:13:42 nice to Yes.
02:13:42 Yes. other children, but horrible to him. Um,
02:13:48 Um, she was great to other kids, but not yours truly. And I felt guilty. It was my fault. I've got an aunt who's a bigot, another father who's not interested, friends who let me down. right on people who don't really give a
02:14:00 right on people who don't really give a damn for each other. The aunt who's a bigot is a reference to the woman that he said was his aunt that lived in Derby. That again is um he did use Derby as part of his cover
02:14:13 he did use Derby as part of his cover identity contrary to what he said in his statement. Yeah, I understand. So that's not Aunt Dorothy that he That's not Aunt Dorothy. No. So
02:14:23 So in addition to the two dead parents and losing his job and the litany of terrible events that have befallen him, he's now confiding that actually he was
02:14:36 he's now confiding that actually he was physically abused. Yes. As a child, how did that affect you when you read this?
02:14:42 this? I was extremely distressed by it. I was worried about him. It was very upsetting to think of somebody I loved going through so much torment.
02:14:53 through so much torment. Um, and I worried about again whether or not, you know, he was feeling so desperate that he might kill himself.
02:15:05 An extract of this was put to Dyn and he addressed it in his witness statement and he said, "While it's difficult to recall, I believe I wrote this note in 1991." on. I mean, that's inaccurate, but he says as one of a number I wrote
02:15:17 but he says as one of a number I wrote to her as I tried to remove myself from the relationship without causing suspicion or angst.
02:15:25 I I just can't quite get my head around how he could say that. Yeah. When it is a letter telling you that
02:15:32 that it caused a massive amount of angst. Yeah. I mean, not just this letter, the whole prolonged coming and going and
02:15:44 such emotive uh,
02:15:49 uh, you know, things that he was talking about that really caused me to be very worried for him, to feel like I wanted to do what I could
02:16:00 to feel like I wanted to do what I could to help him. Uh, [sighs] yeah.
02:16:04 yeah. Yeah. I mean it's complete opposite of extracting yourself without causing angst.
02:16:11 angst. Um in this letter he also informs you that he's planning to go to South Africa.
02:16:20 How did you interpret that at the time? Did you find that strange? And if so, why?
02:16:25 why? Well, yes. Um he'd never talked about going to South Africa before. He never expressed an interest in going there. um it was still um I think that while there might have been
02:16:37 I think that while there might have been some moves towards um ending apartheid, it hadn't ended and therefore it was quite a strange choice of destination for someone who was a political activist
02:16:50 for someone who was a political activist and supposedly committed to, you know, opposition to racism and a parside and obviously bearing in mind that he told me that um he'd been
02:17:03 that he told me that um he'd been arrested on protests against apartheid in New Zealand. It seemed quite out of character
02:17:08 character and I don't know I think I thought it was another indication of uh his head not being
02:17:16 not being you know Yeah. being in a mentally distressed state. Yeah. Sort of unraveling. Yeah.
02:17:21 Yeah. Um we can take that down. Thank you. You set out in your witness statement you continue to re receive letters from him. So you received
02:17:32 him. So you received on the 23rd of April. There was one on the I think was there one on the 16th of April and then then the one on the 20.
02:17:42 20. Yes.
02:17:43 Yes. Oh, maybe the one on the 23rd of No, you're right. You're No, no, you're right. So you received there was one dated the 15th of April that was postmarked South Africa. So between between the one that we've just looked at. Yeah.
02:17:53 Yeah. Um
02:17:56 Um where he said he's going to South Africa. I
02:18:02 I can't I can't can't remember now, but I I made a lot of phone calls relating to
02:18:09 to um which is why that address is written on the back of that envelope is it's me making inquiries with various places in England and in South Africa relating to
02:18:21 England and in South Africa relating to trying to find him because I was worried about whether he might kill himself or, you know, be reckless.
02:18:29 reckless. Yeah.
02:18:29 Yeah. Well, I was just worried about him generally. Yes. You talk about you say you rang the passport office and you finally got John Barker's passport number. Yes.
02:18:37 Yes. And then you rang the you wrote to the South African Department of Home Affairs.
02:18:41 Affairs. I did. But even before that, I'd rg all the airlines, the right
02:18:47 right various host, hotels, um volunteering projects, things like that. I'd rung all sorts trying to And you wanted to find out that he was all right. Yes.
02:19:01 If we look at the final letter you received from him, this is at UCPI 39817.
02:19:08 39817. This is Postmark South Africa, the 23rd of April, 1992. You received this on the 29th of April 1992.
02:19:18 1992. If we look at page two, seven lines down roughly, please
02:19:27 writes, well, I'll start a little bit further up. Your words just made me realize that I had achieved nothing in the last 6 to9 months and you were being strung along hoping, hoping, hoping the situation
02:19:39 hoping, hoping, hoping the situation perhaps only endured so long because the depth of your feelings for me. I'm not saying saying here that I took the situation or you for granted or that I didn't try hard to come to terms with myself.
02:19:51 myself. I did many many times.
02:19:55 There's some acknowledgement there of the fact that he had been stringing you along and that he recognized that he'd been allowing you to continue to hope. Yeah.
02:20:05 Yeah. That there was future a future in your relationship. I mean, you have to wonder what's going on in his head here when this is five months after his deployment has ended
02:20:16 months after his deployment has ended and he is still stringing me along. Yeah.
02:20:21 Yeah. He refers at the [snorts] bottom of the page in the final paragraph, keeping the lid on my emotions, I made little also reading the books you got for me. If I'm honest, I did that to make you feel yet
02:20:32 honest, I did that to make you feel yet again I was all right. So, this is a reference to the books on bereavement that you bought him that I think you gave to him in Canterbury. Is that correct?
02:20:39 correct? That's right. Yeah. Um,
02:20:43 Um, if we go to page four, please
02:20:53 there's he talks about the fact that I can now at least admit there was a lot of cruelty bordering on wickedness is perhaps a step forward. I don't know. I
02:21:04 perhaps a step forward. I don't know. I do know that no kid should be beaten senseless for years on end. So again, a very upsetting reference to
02:21:15 So again, a very upsetting reference to his apparently being subjected to horrible abuse at the hands of his parents.
02:21:20 parents. Yes.
02:21:21 Yes. Um he then goes on to make some weird what would appear to be what purport to be confessions about lying to you about having lots of one night stands. M.
02:21:34 having lots of one night stands. M. Um, so had he told you lots of stories about being very promiscuous? Is that something he'd done? Um, no, not really. Um, I think when the relationship started, we had a bit of a
02:21:47 relationship started, we had a bit of a discussion about previous relationships. And in that context, he said something about I mean, I I remember him saying something about having a fling with someone who he was
02:21:59 having a fling with someone who he was fitting the kitchen for, right? Um, I don't actually remember. I don't remember a whole load of them to be honest, but Okay. It's very strange. Anyway, he's
02:22:11 Okay. It's very strange. Anyway, he's purporting to come clean, but obviously the layers of deceit are so thick at this stage that it's all baffling. Um, page six, if we could go there, please.
02:22:30 He says he's not trying to be cruel. This is the top of the page. I have to stop myself getting in touch with you. I have to let you get on with life. I don't want to leave you alone, but I must. I have to stop hurting you any
02:22:42 must. I have to stop hurting you any longer.
02:22:44 longer. Yeah, he was well aware of what he was doing and the distress it was causing me.
02:22:48 me. Which again is contrary to what he says in his witness statement. Yeah.
02:22:52 Yeah. Um, page seven, please.
02:22:59 He then he goes on about second paragraph. I have to tell you Helen that I love you so very much. So much I hurt so bloody much it makes me
02:23:10 much I hurt so bloody much it makes me cry. I happen to think you're the best thing that's happened to my life. So again that's very apparently heightened passionate
02:23:21 apparently heightened passionate expressions of love. If we go on to page seven, please. And as you point out, this is a significant period of time after his deployment's ended. He's firmly in sconce back at New
02:23:32 He's firmly in sconce back at New Scotland Yard. Um,
02:23:36 Um, yeah. I mean, suppose that's another question. Was he writing these letters in his own time or was this um he's doing this while he's at work? Yeah, who knows? Um,
02:23:49 Yeah, who knows? Um, page nine. Um,
02:23:54 Um, we can see there's some blotches on this page, which I imagine again you interpreted as tear stains. Tear stains. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
02:24:07 Um, and [snorts] he refers to I think that he talks at the top. Yeah.
02:24:14 Yeah. I do know I'll never forget you and all the precious times we had together. I wish I I still I could have a home and kids with you and tell them the things that I was never told and give them the
02:24:25 that I was never told and give them the love that I never had and wrap you all around me. And that is um a clear recognition that contrary to
02:24:36 um a clear recognition that contrary to what he now claims, he did discuss having children with me um
02:24:41 um and he's lying now. Yeah.
02:24:43 Yeah. Um, and then on page 11,
02:24:49 he writes, "Confounds everything I've just written. I hope I can stop running away from you and my problem someday. If I can, I'll come run running back to you." So, [snorts] he's still not even
02:25:00 So, [snorts] he's still not even decisively ending, making a clean break. No. Yeah.
02:25:04 Yeah. No. Um and and the thing about this is like the previous letter he'd sent, he had actually said he wouldn't be in touch anymore, right?
02:25:13 right? And that had upset me a lot. Um but reading this gave me some hope that he might come back, right? And so
02:25:26 right? And so I I then continued to feel that there was a possibility that he might sort his head up
02:25:33 head up and that I should wait for him essentially. Yeah.
02:25:38 Yeah. Which is what happened. Um
02:25:44 it's I mean now I I can't get over how cruel and manipulative it is. Um, you know, like in a normal relationship,
02:25:57 you know, like in a normal relationship, if you have if you have an ending, you generally have at least a series of conversations and you you you kind of
02:26:08 you you kind of you get some sort of understanding of what's going wrong. Um, and all of this was just I don't know. It was just saying one thing, doing another,
02:26:21 saying one thing, doing another, changing his mind, giving conflicting messages, and um, giving the impression of someone who was having a breakdown and therefore
02:26:33 and therefore didn't allow me to make a clean break off.
02:26:36 off. Um,
02:26:37 Um, yeah.
02:26:37 yeah. From the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you couldn't really process it because none of it made sense. And if I understand your evidence correctly
02:26:45 correctly when you were together, actually, you got on well. I mean, it's not as if when you were together, the relationship had sort of broken down as it were. No, that it had become an untenable relationship in terms of how you got on
02:26:56 relationship in terms of how you got on with one another or your physical attraction to one another, for example, which makes it even more difficult to understand. Um,
02:27:05 Um, you say in your witness statement that in the months after the final letter, your housemates told you that he rung the house, asking to speak to you. Yes. On at least a couple of occasions,
02:27:16 Yes. On at least a couple of occasions, he he rang and asked to leave a message for me.
02:27:21 for me. And how did you feel about not managing? Upset that I hadn't been in at the time when he rang. Yeah.
02:27:28 Yeah. Um
02:27:31 Um Um I'm not sure you're aware of this. I'll just bring it to your attention, but this very protracted withdrawal as it were um from his deployment, this ongoing
02:27:44 deployment, this ongoing contact um HN86 in his witness statement because this contrasts with the account that John Dyn gives in his sparkler interview where he gives every impression of he wanted to leave as soon
02:27:55 impression of he wanted to leave as soon as he possibly he wanted to get out of his deployment as soon as possible. I'll just take you to this. It's HN86's witness statement. It's MPS0749482
02:28:07 page 110
02:28:18 and paragraph 351 and it's under the heading John Dyn. He said, "I've considered the excerpts from John Dyn's inquiry witness statement. I knew nothing of John Dyne's relationship with Helen Still, although he seemed
02:28:29 with Helen Still, although he seemed reluctant to withdraw as he was injured. I put that down to his strong competitive streak and the fact that he had not bettered Bob Lambert's achievements. And then if we could go to 35, paragraph
02:28:41 And then if we could go to 35, paragraph 353, please. It's the same page.
02:28:47 He says, "In so far as operation, interview with 122 is an accurate record that summarizes the position. We all knew that John Dyn was part of the same small group with Helen Still, but none of us suspected that it went beyond
02:28:59 of us suspected that it went beyond that. I did not authorize John Dyn to write to Helen Still, nor was I aware that he did. So, as I have stated above, I believe John Dyn was frustrated by his injury and enforced withdrawal.
02:29:11 injury and enforced withdrawal. And just the final reference is page 129. Can I just say in relation to that? Yeah.
02:29:17 Yeah. I mean I I did ask this in my statement but
02:29:22 but the first time that we went to Barer together
02:29:24 together Yeah.
02:29:24 Yeah. we went for 12 days. Um
02:29:34 was he on an was he on annual leave? If he wasn't on annual leave, what was he telling his bosses? Um and if he was on annual leave Yeah. What kind of protection is there
02:29:45 Yeah. What kind of protection is there for
02:29:47 for for women from police officers being able to take members of the public away, deceive them? And I I mean I have said
02:29:58 deceive them? And I I mean I have said before, but that relationship was sorry that holiday was um a very big part in the development of my feelings for him. Yeah. and we were on our own together
02:30:09 Yeah. and we were on our own together for 12 days and I was um still only 24 then. Yeah.
02:30:16 Yeah. And I just think that's a shocking lack of any kind of oversight of a of a police officer that he could do that. Yeah.
02:30:24 Yeah. With nobody nobody seemingly or everybody claiming that they didn't know anything about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's a question for former DCIN86.
02:30:36 former DCIN86. Definitely. Um, just this final paragraph. Um, sorry, if we could just go to page 129, please. Paragraph 430.
02:30:48 Um, there's a gisted bit, but he says at the bottom, John Dyn wanted to continue beyond four years, but was prevented so from doing so by his back injury. So, we
02:30:59 from doing so by his back injury. So, we can take that. So I just wanted to bring that to your attention just so that at least from DCIH and86's perspective it seemed that John Dyn was very reluctant to withdraw. The reasons for that are to withdraw. I mean the reasons for that
02:31:10 withdraw. I mean the reasons for that are obviously unclear but that would tally with his very protracted interactions with
02:31:21 his very protracted interactions with you that for his own reasons he did not want to leave the field. Well, he was continuing to get Yeah.
02:31:28 Yeah. sex with a young woman exploiting me for sex.
02:31:33 sex. Um,
02:31:35 Um, we can take that down. Thank you. Um, in
02:31:42 So, actually, okay. So, the you've had your last letter from him. You've missed phone calls from him to the house. Can you help us, M still just with the
02:31:53 Can you help us, M still just with the impact that the relationship ending and the stopping of communications with John Dyn, the impact that had on you emotionally? It was devastating. Um,
02:32:06 It was devastating. Um, I mean,
02:32:08 I mean, I, you know, well, there was this whole roller coaster period, but but then this seemed to be, okay, I might never hear from him again. Yeah.
02:32:19 again. Yeah. Um, and throughout all of that time really,
02:32:23 really, it was hard to
02:32:27 just hard to be motivated to do
02:32:35 do much really. Yeah. To go about your life. Yeah.
02:32:41 Yeah. And you set out in your witness statement
02:32:45 statement in some detail the effect that had on you. So that's paragraph 661 to 678. That's pages 183 to 186. Um you describe
02:32:56 That's pages 183 to 186. Um you describe it as devastating that you were grieving for a relationship that you cherished and the future you thought you'd have that it was like a bererement
02:33:07 was like a bererement that loss. Yes. except that there wasn't a body to bury and it wasn't something that was recognized by um
02:33:18 um those around me. Yeah.
02:33:21 Yeah. In in the sense that you would you would do if you had a funeral. Yeah.
02:33:25 Yeah. People kind of acknowledge your loss. Yeah.
02:33:28 Yeah. But because I didn't know whether he was coming back or not and I didn't know what I was telling people about I didn't know what was going on. So how could I tell other people about what was going
02:33:39 tell other people about what was going on? um there was no certainty about anything and so it was very disorientating and it kind of meant
02:33:51 it kind of meant there are a lot of ways in which I put my life on hold for example you know I mean I wouldn't have started a relationship straight away but I know that there was a long time after that when I
02:34:02 there was a long time after that when I didn't feel right about starting a relationship because he might come back and
02:34:08 and obviously
02:34:10 obviously you know, the de what had felt like a really deep and meaningful relationship um
02:34:17 um was worth waiting for if he could sort himself out. So, I was just kind of trapped in limbo. Yeah.
02:34:27 Yeah. Um,
02:34:27 Um, and I think the fact that I don't know, the fact that he denied me the opportunity to kind of talk through exactly what was going on and he'd lied
02:34:38 exactly what was going on and he'd lied to me
02:34:40 to me so much about the real reasons for it. I mean, he knew that when he started this relationship that it would be ending in um, less than two years. And yet he
02:34:54 less than two years. And yet he told me that he wanted to be with me for the rest of our lives. He told me he wanted to have children together. So
02:35:07 I mean, yeah. Yeah, it's incredibly cruel. Um, you also say that you suffered from depression
02:35:18 depression as a result of it and that you did experience some suicidal ideiation as a result. I remember that there were times when I
02:35:30 I remember that there were times when I well there were a lot of times when I just wished that I was no longer alive because the levels of distress that I was feeling were were were so great. Um I think I haven't expressed it very well
02:35:43 I think I haven't expressed it very well in my statement but and I'm not sure I can do it now actually but um I know that um well people who know me well would know
02:35:55 well people who know me well would know that sometimes I in fact quite often I sing songs related to something that's just come up in conversation. Yeah. And around that time or or
02:36:06 Yeah. And around that time or or something that's on my mind and around that time the the suicide is painless song would constantly be going through my head. And I I think that was because
02:36:18 my head. And I I think that was because that was a a reflection of Yeah.
02:36:21 Yeah. thinking about just wanting to wanting the pain to end.
02:36:36 You've touched upon this already, but you'd already by this stage taken some steps to try and track him down. And so you talked about trying to locate him in South Africa
02:36:49 trying to locate him in South Africa and in your witness statement at paragraphs 624 to 630, 645, 693 to 77.
02:37:01 624 to 630, 645, 693 to 77. [sighs]
02:37:02 [sighs] Again, you chronicle all the things that you did and there's a great number of things um and steps that you took in order to try and find him. So yes, so it wasn't just the years of my
02:37:14 yes, so it wasn't just the years of my life that I wait wasted on the relationship. It was also the years afterwards trying to search for my missing partner and then searching for the truth. And it's your time and your energy and
02:37:28 And it's your time and your energy and also your money as well. I mean just in terms of
02:37:31 terms of looking at the practical implications. Um some of the things you did, you say that you well you rang on Dorothy. um who after telling you on several
02:37:44 um who after telling you on several occasions that she'd had no contact then told you that he was back in the UK. Yes. And I was upset by that because he hadn't let me know that he was back in the UK.
02:37:54 the UK. Yeah.
02:37:54 Yeah. Um
02:37:56 Um and I you know I I that created doubt as well. But she said that he was back at the um the place that he'd been working for previously.
02:38:08 for previously. Yeah. which I assumed she meant by that, construction and technical services who were based in Hertfordshire. And so I got the train on the same day that she told me that. I got the train
02:38:21 that she told me that. I got the train down to London from Yorkshire and then out to Hertfordshire and went to the place construction and technical services to in the hope of finding him
02:38:32 services to in the hope of finding him there
02:38:33 there um and trying to be able to talk through what was going on. Um, and I got there and they
02:38:45 I got there and they the woman said that was on the reception said that she would go and find out and then came back and said, "Oh, he left on Friday." Um, there was a bit of a pause
02:38:57 Friday." Um, there was a bit of a pause so I assume that during that time they phoned the SCS office and asked them what to say. Um I haven't [snorts] actually seen any disclosure relating to to that. Um
02:39:11 disclosure relating to to that. Um no, we've not obtained anything relating to that.
02:39:13 to that. Right. Um
02:39:19 which is which is a bit strange maybe um given that it would be um a matter of potential operational security
02:39:31 potential operational security um that they'd be concerned about. And so the only reason why they wouldn't have a report is because they actually knew we were in a relationship and they didn't want to put a trail to that.
02:39:44 didn't want to put a trail to that. Um,
02:39:46 Um, but what I remember is is that when I went down to when I went I remember being on the train down to London thinking that I was going to see him being full of hope,
02:39:58 going to see him being full of hope, singing, what have you, and then on the way back just like the contrast in how I was feeling, I was just completely deflated and distressed again. Yeah. And it no doubt felt like another
02:40:12 Yeah. And it no doubt felt like another very near close close shave but in a sense of a good close shave and that you nearly
02:40:18 nearly caught him but not quite. You're out just a few days as with the um missed calls. Um you also describe
02:40:30 you say that you visited the address in Derby. I know the date isn't I I visited the Adess Derby on several occasions. Right. Oh, okay. Um and
02:40:42 Um and uh
02:40:44 uh on it was only on the final occasion like all the all the other occasions I'd knocked on the door and nobody had answered despite coming back on more than one occasion during that day. Right. On the final occasion, somebody
02:40:55 Right. On the final occasion, somebody answered the door and said that um they'd been living there for about five years and that they didn't know that family that so clearly there was no association in the last 5 years between
02:41:07 association in the last 5 years between that family with the Barkers. And I understand that final visit when you were told that was in May 1993. That's what it says in your winner statement. My statement will be right. It will be from my diary. Um, you also placed an
02:41:20 from my diary. Um, you also placed an advertisement in a New Zealand paper which appeared on the 4th of November 1992 asking him to contact you. Yes.
02:41:28 Yes. And you exhibit that. I'm not going to bring it up, but it's at UCPI 39910.
02:41:36 Um, you visited New Zealand House. You applied for copies of his parents' death certificates. Yes. because I felt that um everything I'd tried so far had got
02:41:47 everything I'd tried so far had got nowhere and that if I managed to find his parents' death certificates, I could find from that their address. Yeah.
02:41:55 Yeah. And that would mean that um because he had inherited the house, I might be able to make contact with him. Um and so I applied for those death
02:42:06 him. Um and so I applied for those death certificates. Yeah.
02:42:07 Yeah. And they came back as there's no trace of these people dying.
02:42:12 dying. Yeah. Because clearly you had been told early on that his dad had died in 1988 and that his mother had died in 1990. So you had those dates. Yes.
02:42:22 Yes. Apparently you thought they were clear. Yeah.
02:42:25 Yeah. But they
02:42:27 But they So I assumed that Yeah. I assumed that I would get get those certificates and that would help me find him. But
02:42:36 But um and
02:42:37 um and they said yeah there's no trace. And how again how did you react when you were told that? Were you I was
02:42:47 I was sort of alarmed by it. I thought it was strange, but then I started thinking, well, maybe maybe they had a different surname or something, you know, there
02:42:58 surname or something, you know, there could be an innocent explanation for why there was no record of his parents' deaths.
02:43:04 deaths. Um, you contacted the Salvation Army because you thought he was a missing person. I also paid for a private investigator to look for him which came back with no result.
02:43:15 back with no result. Right.
02:43:17 Right. So again, as we can see, a lot of time, energy, and effort put into Yes.
02:43:22 Yes. chasing
02:43:23 chasing Yes.
02:43:24 Yes. a ghost as it were. Um the fact that these investigations and searches came up with nothing again, what impact did that have
02:43:35 nothing again, what impact did that have on you and your emotional state?
02:43:40 It just continued the distress. I mean, the Salvation Army, they actually said, sorry, that the Salvation Army, I I I came across a book, Tracing Missing
02:43:51 came across a book, Tracing Missing Persons. And I read that and I found out that the Salvation Army had a tracing service for missing persons. And so I wrote to them to ask if they could help. And after various correspondents
02:44:02 And after various correspondents backwards and forwards, they finally came back and said that they'd had an opportunity of passing on a message to him,
02:44:08 him, but that he hadn't responded. And so that was another um why is he, you know, why why is he not responding? You know, it was upsetting, but yeah,
02:44:19 You know, it was upsetting, but yeah, I still felt like I didn't understand what had happened. and
02:44:25 and and you know I needed some kind of uh
02:44:30 uh clear closure on on this. Yeah.
02:44:39 Moving into 1993, you describe in your witness statement in May 1993 moving back to London. So moving out of the caravan in Yorkshire. Yes. Moving back to London.
02:44:50 Yes. Moving back to London. And moving back to London that was nearer to old friends. Yeah. because you were feeling isolated. Yeah.
02:44:55 Yeah. Um and also obviously Mcllyel by this stage was rushed. Yes. We started to have more pre-trial hearings and it was getting impractical to keep coming down from
02:45:06 impractical to keep coming down from Yorkshire. So it was a combination of things that moved up. And in 1993 your investigations included you placed ads in the New Zealand press.
02:45:17 you placed ads in the New Zealand press. You left a short message for John Barker of Tanga
02:45:21 of Tanga asking him to get in touch. You put your name and number in a publication called the small small holder. Yes. Which was something that um he mainly John used to get actually when we
02:45:33 mainly John used to get actually when we were
02:45:35 were um together as part of the act about looking for somewhere to live in the countryside. Yeah.
02:45:41 Yeah. Yeah.
02:45:42 Yeah. To try and find a small holding. Um, so I put an ad in the back of there thinking that he might still be reading it.
02:45:48 it. Yeah.
02:45:48 Yeah. Um, and the consequence of that was I got because I because because I'd moved from Yorkshire to London and I thought, well, he won't be able to contact me in London, sorry, in
02:46:01 contact me in London, sorry, in Yorkshire anymore. Yeah. [snorts] Um, I put my phone number at my new flat in London. And the consequence of that was I got early morning phone calls for
02:46:12 was I got early morning phone calls for a considerable period that were uh sexually abusive and um threatening and very very unpleasant. So the ripple effects of the awfulness
02:46:25 So the ripple effects of the awfulness are sort of extending into new areas and I understand from your witness statement that you reported it to BET but they wanted a police report. Yes. and I had no faith in the police,
02:46:37 Yes. and I had no faith in the police, no trust in the police, so I wasn't going to report it to the police. Moving now into 1994 and your discovery
02:46:48 and your discovery of the death certificate. Um, we know that the McLeel trial took place from June 94 to December 96. You describe that as all consuming. Yes. For
02:47:00 describe that as all consuming. Yes. For you,
02:47:00 you, there were so many witnesses, so many documents. It was basically a round the clock job
02:47:05 clock job and you were representing yourself. Yes. I mean we had occasional help from K Star and other lawyers but the vast majority of the work we had to do ourselves. Um and the representation in
02:47:18 ourselves. Um and the representation in court we were doing ourselves. Um yeah and immensely complex as you say. Um, you describe how on the 14th of November 1994
02:47:30 November 1994 after McDonald's council provided a timetable in court indicating that the trial would not end until December 1995. So you knew it was going to stretch on. Yeah. A very long time. Originally, I
02:47:43 Yeah. A very long time. Originally, I think very early on we'd been given a provisional estimate that the trial, the McLeal trial would last about two to three weeks. Then when it started, we were the timetable that was produced
02:47:55 were the timetable that was produced said it was going to last two to three months.
02:47:58 months. Yeah.
02:47:58 Yeah. And then it as it went on, it just kept getting longer and longer and longer and it felt like there was no end in sight. And on this occasion when um
02:48:09 And on this occasion when um you know that the the next timetable is essentially more than a year. Yeah. Um it just started to feel like there's
02:48:19 there's interable. Yeah. Yeah. I I think like so I had continued to think about him a lot of the time. I know that for certainly for the first part of the
02:48:30 certainly for the first part of the trial I thought about him pretty much every day. And um but I kept thinking, oh well, the trial will be over soon and then after the trial's over, I can kind of try and find
02:48:43 trial's over, I can kind of try and find out what happened and know whether there's any hope of it um being sorted out or whether I can move on.
02:48:52 on. Yeah.
02:48:53 Yeah. Um
02:48:53 Um I understand. So So when you discovered that it was actually going to go on for over a year, you thought actually I have to do something. I can't just postpone this indefinitely. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I I didn't
02:49:04 Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I I didn't conscious I know I know that the moment when I I was walking home from the court back to Hullman's station and that route I I went past St. Katherine's
02:49:16 that route I I went past St. Katherine's house and it was a sudden instinct to oh I should go in there and look through the death records. Um, and I went in and
02:49:27 the death records. Um, and I went in and I found
02:49:30 I found uh so there were there were in those days there were massive binders that were about like that high and there was four per year. Yeah. And so I had to like leaf through all
02:49:41 And so I had to like leaf through all these
02:49:43 these indexes.
02:49:44 indexes. Uh, and then um eventually I found a record that matched with the name and date of birth that
02:49:55 with the name and date of birth that he'd told well that I'd known him by. Um,
02:50:01 Um, and
02:50:01 and I think we'll we'll bring that up because you've provided that. So that's at UCPI 39911. So I
02:50:09 So I this is a bit of a curiosity because I didn't actually apply for the certificate immediately. Yeah.
02:50:16 Yeah. But I know that in the last week or two a document has come up seeming to indicate that somehow they had been become aware that I'd
02:50:29 become aware that I'd been to the right
02:50:32 right um the registry office. Yeah.
02:50:35 Yeah. because
02:50:37 because I think that document's dated the 28th of November or something, is it? And so I'd gone in there on the 14th of November, but I didn't apply for the certificate until in December, I think,
02:50:48 certificate until in December, I think, because I was Yeah.
02:50:50 Yeah. on some level afraid of Yeah. You say you delayed until the 20th of December. Um, I'll look into that. I don't have that reference to hand, but you're
02:51:03 that reference to hand, but you're saying that you've seen a document which indicates that the SDS were on notice that you'd Yes, I think it I think it's been on the screen this week. Well, if not, maybe at
02:51:14 screen this week. Well, if not, maybe at the end of last week. Yeah, maybe I'll find that. Um, we've got the death certificate that you eventually applied for. Um, and we can
02:51:25 eventually applied for. Um, and we can see it's got John Dyn's cover details. and that he took on the identity of a child who died aged eight of acute
02:51:37 child who died aged eight of acute lymphatic leukemia. Um, and we can see just the date. So that confirms what you say about when you applied for it. The date is 21st of December 1994.
02:51:48 December 1994. Yeah.
02:51:48 Yeah. Um, we can take that down. Thank you. And also that he was born in Derby. Um, if we can take that down, please. Um,
02:52:00 thank you very much. I've very helpfully been handed the reference for the document that you've just referenced, which is MPS 052743.
02:52:24 Um, is DS memorandum. Um, just bear with me. I'll just read it.
02:52:31 it. It's the um the bottom of that it says um SDS officers have recent evidence that searches have been made in St. Catherine's house regarding identities
02:52:42 Catherine's house regarding identities and it is dated on I think on the next page.
02:52:44 page. Yeah, if we could go to the next page please just to look at the date and the author.
02:52:48 author. Uh I see. Yes. So it's it's DCI Edmonson authored on the 28th of November 1994. Yes, which is 2 weeks after I'd gone in there.
02:52:57 there. I mean,
02:52:59 I mean, that doesn't absolutely prove it, but it could I mean, it's it could be a coincidence, but in any event, yes, I mean, there's a temporal proximity there
02:53:10 mean, there's a temporal proximity there in terms of your making that discovery and um Edmonson writing this. Thank you for raising that. If we can take that down, please.
02:53:21 down, please. Um,
02:53:23 Um, can you describe for us please, Miss Still, the impact making this discovery of this death certificate had on you?
02:53:38 [sighs]
02:53:46 Would
02:53:53 it help you if I read out what you'd written in your witness statement? Um,
02:54:07 it was uh
02:54:12 I mean it was devastating. Um, Sorry, I'm using that word a lot, but it it was it was and it was also extremely disorientating because what it
02:54:23 extremely disorientating because what it meant was that I no longer even knew the name of the person that I'd been in a relationship with. Um, and he was the person who
02:54:36 person who I thought I knew best of anyone. Um, you know, I'd lived with him uh
02:54:47 for over a year and
02:54:53 and we'd spent so much time together and um I
02:55:02 I I don't know. I I thought I knew him so well.
02:55:05 well. Yeah. And now I didn't know anything about him. I didn't even know his name. And it was just like, well, what does that mean about any of my other relationships that this person who
02:55:16 other relationships that this person who I thought I knew so well doesn't exist? How can I know whether anybody else around me exists? Like, are they real? Are they
02:55:30 don't know? It was very very disoriented. Yeah.
02:55:36 Yeah. And you say in your witness statement as well that it was actually frightening. Yeah, it was frightening as well. It was [sighs]
02:55:45 [sighs] I didn't I didn't know if I could trust my own judgment anymore. I didn't, you know,
02:55:54 who was he if he wasn't who he said he was? What was he doing in my life? It was there was just like my head was exploding with questions and there was
02:56:06 and there was there was nobody to talk to about it really and I felt that
02:56:14 I tried to think through who who he might have been and what he was doing in my life and one of the possibilities was that he had been an undercover policeman. Yeah. And that meant that I felt well if
02:56:28 Yeah. And that meant that I felt well if that's the case then anybody else could be an undercover police officer and so [snorts] if I talk about this to anybody else it could get back to them and they will stop me finding out the truth. So I
02:56:39 will stop me finding out the truth. So I can't talk about it to other people. I did I told like two or three very close friends.
02:56:45 friends. Yeah. Um but apart from that I didn't talk about it to anybody and it meant that I then uh was effectively suppressing a large part of my life because I felt like if I
02:56:59 part of my life because I felt like if I talked about this significant relationship that I'd had and um
02:57:09 uh
02:57:13 his disappearance Yeah.
02:57:16 Yeah. um that it would lead to more questions and
02:57:22 it just felt like I couldn't I couldn't safely talk about it because word might get back to if if he was an undercover policeman, word might get back to his bosses, which in fact was going on. So I was
02:57:35 which in fact was going on. So I was right to think.
02:57:39 So at a time really where you needed a tremendous amount of support, you felt unable
02:57:48 unable close friends really to reach out. Yes.
02:57:53 Yes. Um you say again also this was like another bereavement because you've had that earlier loss of the relationship. now you've lost
02:58:04 relationship. now you've lost any sense of actually who this person was
02:58:08 was and what was going on. Um, you also say that in terms of the scenarios that you considered might explain it. You say that the possibility
02:58:21 explain it. You say that the possibility he was a UCO entered your mind, but that you thought it was too far-fetched. Yes. Well, that also um whether he could have been a private investigator,
02:58:32 have been a private investigator, right?
02:58:33 right? And uh another thing was that maybe he was on the run and he was using a false identity for that. But basically, it felt like all of whatever the options were, the best thing was not to talk
02:58:45 were, the best thing was not to talk about it to anybody because it could either lead him into trouble or it could prevent me from finding out the truth. The truth, who he really was.
02:58:58 Um, it's 5:00, sir. I think that might be of a
02:59:04 be of a moment to pause. I think it would. Um, there is further evidence which I hope that you will be able to provide to me on the 24th of July
02:59:17 on the 24th of July um about your efforts to try and trace him in the antipities. Um,
02:59:24 Um, yes. Could I could I ask is there is there any chance because I know the next three weeks we're not sitting on Friday. Would there be any chance of being able to sit on one of those Fridays and get
02:59:37 to sit on one of those Fridays and get it out of the way? Um I'm not the person to ask. Although well you can ask me but I'm not the person to answer. I'm afraid administration is not my um uh specialtity and indeed or competence. So
02:59:50 specialtity and indeed or competence. So I can't give you a direct answer. Um but uh I I your question has been noted by those who are in charge of administering things
02:59:58 things right
02:59:58 right and um uh you will receive a response but I don't know what it is. Okay. Um,
03:00:07 Okay. Um, [snorts] if now is an appropriate time to deal with