The witness, Jim Boyling (HN14), provides testimony regarding the operational structure of the SDS, the prevalence of racism within the MPS and SDS, and the ethics of undercover sexual relationships. He specifically addresses his relationship with 'Rosa' and his refusal to align himself with the Metropolitan Police Service's apology for the conduct of undercover officers.
00:29:50 Good afternoon everybody. This afternoon's proceedings uh will be broadcast on the live length live link after a 10-minute uh delay. uh those with recording devices, mobile
00:30:03 with recording devices, mobile telephones may use them to report what they hear this afternoon but not uh use them for the purpose of recording or photography. Uh there is going to be a
00:30:14 photography. Uh there is going to be a short period towards the end of the uh open evidence when there will be a private session. Um that will be announced when we get to it. Meanwhile, um, further to the interim order made,
00:30:27 um, further to the interim order made, uh, this morning, there must be no disclosure or publication made of the information stated during the hearing today between 12:37 and 12:39, both
00:30:38 today between 12:37 and 12:39, both times inclusive. Uh, a redacted transcript will in due course be published.
00:30:47 Thank you, sir. Mr. Boiling I want to turn to the question of the SDS meetings the twice weekly meetings that you attended. You describe in your
00:31:01 you attended. You describe in your witness statement that initially all UCOs were present at the same time. There was a roundt discussion and that meant uh [clears throat] people were
00:31:13 meant uh [clears throat] people were saying what they were aware of in their particular field and talking about forthcoming events. Yes.
00:31:21 Yes. Did that arrangement for the meetings remain the same throughout the time that you were in the SDS?
00:31:29 SDS? They became much more loose later on. So, um, the intention would just you'd have one meeting with everybody and then you'd have one day where you just came in individually, but the the main
00:31:40 in individually, but the the main meeting of everybody sort of became a bit looser. Was there still a a a meeting with everybody present? But that was the intention that everybody should be present and so was the attend was the attendance
00:31:52 and so was the attend was the attendance usually high? Yeah. [clears throat]
00:31:56 And the consequence of the meetings being run in that way is you all had some idea of what the others were doing. Very brief. People didn't give a debrief. They just gave a couple of
00:32:08 debrief. They just gave a couple of lines of what they were doing and
00:32:11 and you would hear people talking about major forthcoming events and that sort of thing.
00:32:17 of thing. So if we could just take an example from early in your deployment. If we have up 245 325.
00:32:31 So this is a uh report about um a then forthcoming demonstration that was going to happen in October of 1995.
00:32:42 was going to happen in October of 1995. The report dated 26th of July and it's about um
00:32:48 about um a march which was entitled demand justice
00:32:52 justice which was going to campaign in support of a number of justice campaigns. Is that the sort of forthcoming event
00:33:03 Is that the sort of forthcoming event that would be uh referred to at SDS meetings? Uh potentially if we could take that down now please.
00:33:15 if we could take that down now please. Does it follow that you would be aware in highlevel terms that for example Peter Francis was
00:33:26 that for example Peter Francis was reporting on events involving justice campaigns? Um no [clears throat] I was aware that Pete Francis was working on militant and related groups.
00:33:40 But when groups that were related were campaigning on anti-racist matters and there were demonstrations um arranged, would you be aware that
00:33:52 um arranged, would you be aware that those were coming up? No, I have no uh detailed knowledge of Pete France's deployment. Beyond what I've just said, I'm not suggesting you heard a detail. Well, I I think that answer is I I don't know what campaigns Pete Francis was
00:34:03 know what campaigns Pete Francis was involved in. I know he was militant and related groups. The proposition is would you know that he was attending
00:34:12 attending [cough]
00:34:12 [cough] [clears throat] demonstrations which were supporting justice campaigns? No.
00:34:21 HN81 who used the code name David Hagen.
00:34:30 Yeah. You'll be aware that he infiltrated initially the socialist workers party and then moved on to movement for justice.
00:34:40 justice. Uh I was aware that he was deployed in the SWP. That's probably about the limit of it.
00:34:46 of it. Our understanding is uh HN81 was only deployed into SWP for a relatively short period of time. At the start of his deployment, he then
00:34:57 At the start of his deployment, he then went to Brixton and became involved with the MFJ. Would you have known about that? Uh, no. It might help you that you tended to know once you've been in the field for a while, you had a lot on. You didn't pay
00:35:09 while, you had a lot on. You didn't pay that much attention to what people coming in behind you were doing. Um, I didn't know this officer particularly well. My understanding was that his deployment was SWP.
00:35:21 deployment was SWP. I never worked with him, nor was I ever briefed with him about anything. And is your evidence that in the pleenary meetings that you've the pleenary parts of the meetings you've described
00:35:33 described that even knowledge as high level as he was infiltrating the movement for justice would not have come to your attention. I I don't think I would have paid that much attention. I'm not trying to be
00:35:44 much attention. I'm not trying to be invasive but it goes around a room very quickly. Um, I probably only paid attention to people, but I thought there was an overlap with what I was doing or if there was something particularly interesting about what somebody was doing and I didn't think his deployment
00:35:56 doing and I didn't think his deployment was something that registered with me very much. With Mark Jenner's deployment, would you have been aware that he was deployed into the Colin Roach Center?
00:36:07 into the Colin Roach Center? Uh, yes, I think I was. Mark was deployed immediately before me, so I I sort of paid more attention to what he was doing. And the Hackne Community Defense Association. I don't remember that one. I I would have thought he was more
00:36:20 I I would have thought he was more more sort of red action area. But he was mixing with people who were campaigning on grounds of racial for racial equality.
00:36:31 racial equality. No, I wasn't aware of that. Really?
00:36:33 Really? Yeah. Really? And police accountability? I I No, I didn't know he was doing that. I thought he was red action and I think anti-fascist action. I think he was North London organizer for that. Were
00:36:44 North London organizer for that. Were you aware that it he did get into red action, but it took him a long time to do so?
00:36:49 do so? Well, I had quite a lot on myself, so I couldn't follow it any more closely than that. That was what I thought he was doing.
00:36:56 doing. Whilst you were in the SDS attending SDS meetings, what did managers say about racial justice campaigns? I don't remember them saying anything about them. Did they say anything about their
00:37:07 Did they say anything about their relevance to SDS work? No. anything to the effect that the SDS was interested in left-wing groups which were associated with those campaigns? No,
00:37:18 No, nothing at all. No.
00:37:20 No. Is it your evidence positive? Well, not not to me, but it wouldn't have been relevant to my deployment particularly. Did they say anything in the meetings that although not relevant to you was being directed at others?
00:37:31 being directed at others? No. Well, not that I remember them saying.
00:37:38 In February 1997, the verdict in the Steven Lawrence inquest was announced. Was the Steven Lawrence uh case something that came up
00:37:51 Lawrence uh case something that came up in conversation in the SDS? Never to my knowledge. You sure about that? Well, I'm sure about my knowledge of it. Are [clears throat] you able to help us with what the reaction within the SDS
00:38:03 with what the reaction within the SDS was to the Steven Lawrence inquest? and none whatsoever that I remember. I don't think it it impinged upon us at all to my recollection. Was there ever any talk of Steven's
00:38:14 Was there ever any talk of Steven's death being exploited by the far-left? No.
00:38:20 No. In July 1997, the Steven Lawrence inquiry was announced. What sort of views were expressed within the SDS about that development?
00:38:31 development? None whatsoever. Are you sure that nothing was said about it at all? I I don't remember anybody saying anything at the meeting about it or in my presence about it. I think everybody
00:38:43 presence about it. I think everybody knew that that that whole area would have been particularly toxic. I wasn't aware of any uh any involvement for for police. I mean, I don't mean that disrespect for police. Um
00:38:54 disrespect for police. Um I don't recall it ever coming up at a meeting. Certainly not in the in the main meeting. It might have come up at a separate meeting for the people working the left wing, but that I wouldn't have been at that meeting. When new labor came to power in 1997 and
00:39:07 When new labor came to power in 1997 and Jack Straw became the home secretary, what sort of views were expressed about that development? None whatsoever.
00:39:18 Was there any concern that Mr. straws um passed as a political activist um might influence and change uh the climate
00:39:30 influence and change uh the climate compared to the preceding conservative government. No.
00:39:36 No. In June 1998, the then five suspects appeared in front of the Steven Lawrence inquiry and there was disorder outside
00:39:47 inquiry and there was disorder outside at which we understand HN81 was present. Was that uh an occasion uh which was uh talked about in any way at SDS meetings?
00:40:01 talked about in any way at SDS meetings? never in my presence or that I was aware of.
00:40:08 Did anybody express any view one way or the other about that dramatic event? The same answer.
00:40:19 The same answer. In February 1999, the McFersonen report was published with a finding that not [snorts] only was the murder investigation deeply flawed,
00:40:31 investigation deeply flawed, uh, but there was also institutional racism. What was your reaction to the McFersonen report? I didn't have a reaction to the McFersonen report. None whatsoever?
00:40:42 None whatsoever? No. Despite it being a toxic subject for the police, I have no I've never had any involvement in Lawrence or McFersonen or any tasking
00:40:53 in Lawrence or McFersonen or any tasking of it or nor have I discussed it. It's just not an area I've ever impinched upon at all. That's not what I'm asking. But it isn't. But I think it answers your whole series of questions I was trying to help you. I'm asking whether you had an opinion.
00:41:05 I'm asking whether you had an opinion. No.
00:41:08 No. [snorts]
00:41:09 [snorts] Did any of your SDS colleagues express any opinion? No.
00:41:15 No. None whatsoever? Not not that I remembered. Not in my present. Same answer. [snorts]
00:41:20 [snorts] What was the opinion of your managers then? HN58 and HN53. Same answer. Did they say anything at all uh about uh this important
00:41:32 this important report?
00:41:33 report? Same answer.
00:41:37 The inquiry has had evidence from some of your former colleagues to the effect that these questions were the subject of discussion and opinions.
00:41:49 discussion and opinions. Not by me or in my presence. You certain of that? Yeah, I would have remembered that. I think
00:41:58 think why would you have remembered if it didn't matter to you very much? um for the reason that I gave that from the policing point of view it's a it's a big subject. I I don't I find it quite
00:42:09 subject. I I don't I find it quite strange that this has become a big thing. If there was any aspect involving that section, I I genuinely was not aware of it. It was never discussed in my presence. I don't remember being
00:42:20 my presence. I don't remember being aware that anybody was involved in it. I I can't be more comprehensive in my answer than that. Where were you when you first heard of Dwayne Brooks? I don't I probably read about him in the newspaper in the '9s or
00:42:33 about him in the newspaper in the '9s or the early 2000s. Did you ever hear colleagues speaking about him? No,
00:42:41 No, not at all. No.
00:42:44 No. Were there ever any racist jokes told by anyone uh within the SDS at any time? No.
00:42:52 No. The SDS wasn't even just by the by wasn't an all-white unit for all the time I was on it either. Were racial slurs ever used? No.
00:43:04 Did you know Chief Superintendent Potter before he was medically retired? No.
00:43:13 [snorts] Did you come to learn that Chief Superintendent Potter was the involved in an in a racist incident
00:43:25 involved in an in a racist incident which led to him being medically discharged? Uh that's the first I've heard of it. No gossip or discussion at all that you heard.
00:43:35 heard. What What year was this? 1993.
00:43:38 1993. No. No.
00:43:41 No. No. No gossip about a chief superintendent leaving following a racist outburst. No. Well, 1993. Um
00:43:52 No. Well, 1993. Um I I don't remember being hearing any gossip about that, but I I can't I might have heard something about it, but I don't know. I don't know who he is. So, um it doesn't really help, does it?
00:44:04 um it doesn't really help, does it? Did [snorts] you know at the manager we are using the nominal HN86 for
00:44:18 uh he conducted my initial recruitment interview for SDS. I think that's the only contact I've ever had with him. Did he ever use any kind of racial slur in your presence?
00:44:29 in your presence? Not during my interview or at any other Well, my interview is the only contact I've ever had with him. He just interviewed me um to see my suitability for the section. He was already gone by the time I came to my second interview
00:44:40 the time I came to my second interview even.
00:44:41 even. So the answer is no. Did he express any racist views to you? No.
00:44:46 No. Did he have a reputation for doing either of those things? No.
00:44:51 No. How well did you know him? Not at all.
00:44:55 [snorts] You joined the Metropolitan Police Service in November 1986, we understand. When you joined uh the MPS and in your years in uniform before joining special
00:45:07 years in uniform before joining special branch, did you ever encounter any racism within the MPS? Um
00:45:15 yeah. Yeah. When I um I finished university and joined the police and I went to Brixton in 1986. Um,
00:45:25 Um, by modern standards, Brixton would still have had elements of uh stereotyped attitudes. Quite endemic at times. Yeah. When you say Brixton, do you mean Brixton Police Station?
00:45:36 Brixton Police Station? Yeah. Yeah. Brixton Division. I was at Brixton Division. And how endemic was it? Um,
00:45:45 I mean it was it I mean not not throughout the station. There was a a good ethnic mix amongst the officers coming in. Um but there were still some what I what I
00:45:57 there were still some what I what I might describe as very old school attitudes there I think. You mean not a euphemism for racist? Yeah, it probably is, isn't it? And other than Brixham Police Station,
00:46:09 And other than Brixham Police Station, did you encounter any other racism in the MPS before joining Special Branch? Well, I went I was at Brixton from 86 to 91 and then I went straight into Special Branch and Special Branch um
00:46:22 Branch and Special Branch um uh had a far higher educational level. I don't know what else has to say. It wasn't the same attitudes as you would get on on BA. I'm going to come to Special Branch, but I'm obviously I went straight from Brixton to special branch.
00:46:33 branch. But in terms of when you were training, any police officers you came into contact with? Not not that I remember outside Brixton. No.
00:46:44 Special branch. You join in July 1991. That sounds about right. Did you encounter any racism in Special Branch?
00:46:54 Branch? No.
00:46:55 No. None at all. Not that I was aware of. I mean, I'm a white officer, so it might have been different if I wasn't, but uh no, I not in my presence. And how
00:47:07 in my presence. And how educated were you in things like definitions of racism at that time? Definitions of racism? I'm not sure that we were at all. So, in terms of your ability to spot
00:47:20 So, in terms of your ability to spot anything other than very clear over racism, what would your capacity have been to detect things like indirect racism or subtle racism? Um, strange to
00:47:32 racism or subtle racism? Um, strange to say, but I don't think people were particularly aware of um, those nuances in 1991
00:47:38 in 1991 in the circles in which you were mixing. Well, yeah. Yeah. Sort of subconscious bias and such like that that wasn't really a thing in 1991.
00:47:52 Can I move on now to uh, the conduct of some of your colleagues uh, in the SDS? First of all, Mark Jenner, you've stated in your witness statement that you were
00:48:04 in your witness statement that you were aware that Mark Jenner was in the relationship whilst in the field. You say, "We were recruited at the same time and were quite open about it with each other. When did you first learn that Mr.
00:48:18 other. When did you first learn that Mr. Jenner was in a relationship?" I I can't remember when, but I certainly knew that he was. Was it at an early stage of your deployment?
00:48:29 deployment? I can only give you the previous answer. I can't remember exactly when when I would have become aware of that. Not even to within a year. This is what 1990s. No, I'm I'm sorry.
00:48:40 This is what 1990s. No, I'm I'm sorry. How did you learn? Um
00:48:44 Um I don't remember. I just became aware that he was I don't I don't Same as with myself. I don't think uh it was a secret particularly, but I don't remember there was a big reveal or something in the way that that I think would would answer
00:48:55 that that I think would would answer your question. I think I just became aware of it. And in what terms did you speak to one another about your respective sexual relationships under cover?
00:49:06 relationships under cover? Minimally, if at all. Did you discuss at all the tradecraftraft manual? Uh, not when we were in the field, I don't think. No. At any time?
00:49:17 At any time? Uh, I don't remember doing so. Did you discuss the morality of what you were doing? the job as a whole or or relationship relationships?
00:49:28 relationship relationships? Um, no, I don't think so. Did you discuss um your families at all? No.
00:49:40 No. Did Mr. Jenner speak about his family and the fact he was having um a relationship with somebody other than his wife?
00:49:49 his wife? No.
00:49:52 No. Can you give me a yes no answer to this? Did you mention or discuss Mr. Jenner's sexual relationship undercover with anybody else in the SDS?
00:50:04 anybody else in the SDS? No.
00:50:07 No. Was it widely known? Um,
00:50:11 Um, I don't know.
00:50:15 Did you [snorts] ever suggest to him that he should end his relationship with Allison? Uh, no. [clears throat]
00:50:24 Did he ever suggest to you that you should end any of your sexual relationships under
00:50:33 Was there any sense that these relationships were regarded as a perk of the job?
00:50:38 the job? No.
00:50:41 No. Did you attend SDS Christmas parties? Um
00:50:47 Um not sure I would describe them as Christmas parties. That make that parties is the wrong word. There would be occasional because people work independently in the field and can get very isolated. There would be occasional attempts to bring everybody together
00:50:59 attempts to bring everybody together socially. I think that being a suggestion um for the support of the officers. So I think every so often we would come in for a meal or something. Um, most of us would attend.
00:51:11 would attend. Quite rare. If I call it a Christmas function. Okay, that's better. Yeah. Did you attend SDS Christmas functions? Uh, I think I probably did. Yeah.
00:51:22 Uh, I think I probably did. Yeah. And the woman we are calling S, who was Mark Jenner's then wife. Okay. Yeah. Was she there? Yeah, I did attend a function and she
00:51:34 Yeah, I did attend a function and she was there. Did you feel awkward uh with S at a Christmas function with Mr. Jenner knowing what Mr. Jenner was doing? No, because the only time I remember
00:51:45 No, because the only time I remember meeting Mark's wife was probably the very first might been the very first year that I was deployed and I wasn't aware of what Mark was doing if indeed he was in a relationship at that point.
00:51:56 he was in a relationship at that point. Were there Christmas functions after that which you were all present? that there's only the one that I can remember that people's partners came to.
00:52:09 So, no sense of awkwardness at all. Well, I had nothing to be awkward about. I wasn't aware of any anything. I'm not even sure if he was in a relationship at the time that I met his wife.
00:52:20 the time that I met his wife. [snorts]
00:52:21 [snorts] HN1,
00:52:25 you again have said that uh you knew uh about uh the others sexual relations under cover. When did you first learn about HN1s?
00:52:38 you first learn about HN1s? I I don't remember. Was it before you deployed? No, I don't think so. But I I don't remember is the answer. When you say you don't remember, can we
00:52:50 When you say you don't remember, can we take it that it was so matter of fact that it No, we can take it that this is some point in the 1990s and I don't remember the date.
00:53:01 Did you discuss the tradecraftraft manual with him? Uh, I don't think so. Don't recall doing so, but we might have done. The morality of sleeping with people
00:53:12 sleeping with people in your undercover identity. Uh, not that I remember your families. you discuss them their impact the impact of sleeping with other people.
00:53:22 people. Um well I
00:53:24 Um well I I know you I know your relationship came apart very early on but did he talk about his family? Did you talk to him about the morality of what he was doing? I don't think so. I mean we didn't
00:53:35 I don't think so. I mean we didn't socialize together.
00:53:40 Give me a yes or no answer to this. Did you speak about HN1's sexual relationship with anybody else?
00:53:50 else? No.
00:53:52 No. Did you speak about it in front of anybody else? Yes. No.
00:53:58 No. Was it widely known? No. Well, I don't think so. I mean, I never asked anybody else what they knew or or Yeah.
00:54:10 or or Yeah. Did you ever suggest that he should end uh his relationship, his undercover relationship? It would not have been my place to do so.
00:54:21 so. Wouldn't Would it not have been your place to do so because what he was doing was wrong. Uh he was a rank above me and he was my field mentor. It's not my place to advise him.
00:54:35 Oh, he was if did he advise you to end yours?
00:54:41 yours? Um, no.
00:54:44 Um, no. Was there a sense between the two of you that what you were doing sexually undercover was a perk of the job? No, never. But I don't think that attitude I've never come across that attitude. No.
00:54:57 never come across that attitude. No. On the subject of HN1, did he ever speak to you about Jeff Shepard? Um, I was aware that he was an associate of his.
00:55:05 of his. Did he say anything to you in connection with Mr. Shepherd about improvised incendurary devices? Uh, not to me.
00:55:16 Uh, not to me. I was aware of the operation and the arrest around it, but I wasn't involved in it.
00:55:21 in it. I'm asking what I know. I know that. asking what I he spoke to you about discussion with uh that officer about that person and I
00:55:32 uh that officer about that person and I didn't know that person Jeff Shepard sorry
00:55:36 sorry did he speak to you about Jeff Shepard in a shotgun not to me no but again I was aware of that aspect of the operation
00:55:49 Kohl's did he ever speak to you about sexual ual relationships undercover? Not that I remember. Or sexual activity undercover? Same answer. Did you know whether or not um Mr.
00:56:02 Did you know whether or not um Mr. Coohl's had become involved sexually with anybody undercover? I was not aware of that.
00:56:11 HN78 Trevor Morris. Did you ever discuss sexual activity undercover with him? No.
00:56:20 No. Do did you know whether or not he was involved sexually with anybody undercover in any way? No.
00:56:29 James Thompson, we've heard some evidence that as Mr. Thompson's deployment was coming to an end, [clears throat]
00:56:40 end, [clears throat] he telephoned you four times on the 4th of April, 2002 at the end of the deployment. Can you recall being contacted uh by
00:56:53 contacted uh by Thompson?
00:56:53 Thompson? No.
00:56:54 No. At the end of No, your deployment. No. [snorts] At any time did you become aware uh that Mr. Thompson had got himself involved
00:57:05 Mr. Thompson had got himself involved sexually with people undercover? Not when I was on SDS. No. When did you first learn that? Um some years later. How?
00:57:15 How? He [clears throat] told me. Can you help us with uh the circumstances in which he told you?
00:57:21 told you? He told me in a cafe near Scotland Yard and can you help us as best you can with when that was? It was some years afterwards and I think probably post post 2011.
00:57:38 Can you help us with how soon after 2011?
00:57:43 2011? Um, no. No. I think it was probably after I'd been in the paper. Um, I I don't remember how soon after. So, before or after this inquiry started
00:57:55 So, before or after this inquiry started in 2015?
00:57:56 in 2015? Oh, before before I think I think before we've heard some evidence about SDS trips away. Did you go on a trip to
00:58:07 trips away. Did you go on a trip to Amsterdam? Yes.
00:58:09 Yes. How many times did you go to Amsterdam with the SDS? once
00:58:15 when you went uh to Amsterdam. Can you help us with what year that was as best you can remember? Um, you probably know it, but I don't, I'm afraid. [laughter]
00:58:27 Can you help us on that trip? Did anybody take any drugs which were legal in Amsterdam that would have been prohibited in this jurisdiction?
00:58:38 prohibited in this jurisdiction? Uh, well, I did. Did any of your colleagues Um, I think myself and Mark uh had a smoke in a bar. Anybody else? No.
00:58:49 No. Uh, in terms of uh sex, did uh you and other members of the SDS visit the red light district? We walked through it. Yeah.
00:59:01 We walked through it. Yeah. To your knowledge, did anybody in the SDS on that trip use the services of a sex worker? No.
00:59:11 Did you go to Las Vegas? Yes.
00:59:18 When you were on the SDS trip to Las Vegas, did anybody on that trip take drugs? No.
00:59:29 No. Did anybody use the services of a sex worker?
00:59:32 worker? No.
00:59:36 within the SDS when there were conversations about women. Can you help us with the sort of tone of conversation there was?
00:59:47 tone of conversation there was? I I don't remember conversations about women on the SDS, but I don't think there was anybody. The implication in your question is clear. I don't think there were any
00:59:58 clear. I don't think there were any great sexist attitudes on the SDS. I've been recruited at the same time as a female officer as well as Mark. We work together. Um I I don't think there was
01:00:11 together. Um I I don't think there was any sort of disrespect towards towards women.
01:00:15 women. And you maintain that view notwithstanding everything we now know about what was happening in the Yes.
01:00:24 [snorts] I'm going to read to you the Metropolitan Police Service's apology produced [snorts] to this inquiry at the start of tranch two.
01:00:38 start of tranch two. And the question once I've read it is whether you align yourself with that apology. Now, these relationships, and it's referring to the sexual relationships,
01:00:50 to the sexual relationships, were a gross violation of these individuals privacy and human rights. They were abusive, deceitful, manipulative,
01:01:01 manipulative, and wrong. The MPS apologizes again unreservedly to the individuals whose lives have been and continue to be
01:01:12 lives have been and continue to be affected. Further, as the MPS said in its preliminary closing remarks at the conclusion to T2, sexual relationships and the poor management that facilitated
01:01:23 and the poor management that facilitated them were unacceptable by the standards of any time and amounted to serious failings.
01:01:33 failings. What is the question? Do you align yourself with that apology now?
01:01:37 now? No, I don't. I think that's a very self-serving um and slightly cowardly response by the Met in order to avoid responsibility for
01:01:48 avoid responsibility for um
01:58:15 has to be made behind the scenes. Uh Mr. Good morning. You gave some evidence
01:58:25 evidence uh that uh there may be briefings and discussions before demonstrations and they'd come up when
01:58:37 demonstrations and they'd come up when there were multiple undercover police officers going to be at a demonstration. What sort of discussions did you have? Um sometimes it was the case that if
01:58:48 Um sometimes it was the case that if there was a particularly large event that the officers involved with it would have a separate um discussion with the handler.
01:58:57 handler. So So if there were going to be two SDS UCOs, you would be more than one UCO would have a closed meeting with more than one UCO. You'd all sit down and discuss Yeah.
01:59:06 Yeah. what was coming up. Yeah.
01:59:09 Yeah. Were you ever aware that UCOs from the NPOU
01:59:15 NPOU were also going to be at the same demonstrations? Uh, for most of the time that I was on SDS, there were no undercover officers on on that unit. Right at the end of my time,
01:59:25 time, right at the end of my time in the field, that unit was set up. Uh, was there any liaison? Were you told, for example, that an NOIU officer
01:59:36 told, for example, that an NOIU officer would be there? Um, I had I think the only time I remember was I I was told there was going to be an NPIU officer coming from a particular activist group
01:59:48 coming from a particular activist group to a meeting that I was involved with, but they didn't know which one, but it was obvious to me immediately which one it was.
01:59:56 it was. Do you recall whether you were given any information about um an officer who used a cover name Rod Richardson? That's the one. Yeah. Do you recall any
02:00:07 That's the one. Yeah. Do you recall any information about his presence at the J18? Uh,
02:00:10 J18? Uh, no. No, I didn't know he was at J. Were there any joint meetings between the MOIU and the SDS so that you could liaz about covering large demonstrations?
02:00:21 demonstrations? No.
02:00:25 Uh, you talked when I was asking asking you questions about your meetings with HN367.
02:00:33 um following
02:00:36 following I think it was the compromise in 2010 and and all the [laughter] story breaking in the media and you said there were bad feelings between the SDS
02:00:47 there were bad feelings between the SDS and the unit. Can I just be clear which unit you are saying there was bad feeling with? Um there were bad feeling between um
02:00:59 Um there were bad feeling between um some former SDS officers and uh is it Kob functions unit the unit that that officer was involved in? I'm not sure what it was called at the time, but the sort of main undercover unit for the
02:01:11 sort of main undercover unit for the Met.
02:01:11 Met. And to to be clear, were were there bad feelings between the SDS and the NPOU? Um
02:01:21 Um I I I wasn't really I didn't really have any dealings with the NOI, so I'm not really sure. I think they would certainly
02:01:29 certainly I think they would have regarded themselves as a rival unit. I think it was more that sort of relationship than cooperative, but I didn't have any dealings with them myself. Friendly rivals or hostile rivals? Uh I
02:01:42 Uh I I I um I I'm not sure. That would be a question for people in the office, I think.
02:01:50 think. Can you recall an incident uh when you left Monica alone in your flat
02:02:00 flat crying [snorts] during the course of your deployment? No.
02:02:07 No. Do you mean that never happened or that it might have happened but you cannot remember?
02:02:12 remember? I think it's unlikely that I cannot remember but I'm I'm I think it's unlikely that she's made it up. uh if that's if that's her account but I don't remember any such incident.
02:02:23 I want to we've covered this ground, but I want to be crystal clear with you. Rose's position that if she had known
02:02:37 Rose's position that if she had known when you first began your sexual relationship that you were an undercover police officer, she would not have had sex with
02:02:48 officer, she would not have had sex with you.
02:02:51 you. Is there anything any evidence you want to give on that issue? Um,
02:03:02 Um, I think if you had seen the other half of the correspondence, this is this is when you first start the sexual relationship undercover in 1999.
02:03:13 sexual relationship undercover in 1999. Yeah. Sorry. What's the problem with my answer to that then? You continue. Okay. Um, well, I would make clear that once she knew who I was,
02:03:26 make clear that once she knew who I was, her reaction to that was to send me lots of emails to try to rekindle the relationship. She flew all the way to Africa to get back together. Um, she asked me to marry her. We got married.
02:03:39 asked me to marry her. We got married. We had two children. All that evidence implies that um the fact that I had been an undercover police officer was not um not a great
02:03:50 police officer was not um not a great deal. I appreciate that that is not a convenient narrative and I don't really wish to
02:03:56 wish to um
02:03:57 um undermine her in any way. So I think I'm going to leave it at that. If it was said that quite a lot of water had gone under the bridge before she had to make that decision because she'd got
02:04:08 to make that decision because she'd got to know you and that's the crucial difference. Do you want to say anything about that? I I don't want to undermine I don't want to undermine my ex-wife.
02:04:19 to undermine my ex-wife. Sorry if that's not what people want to hear, but I I just would rather leave that be.
02:04:23 that be. We would just like your your answers. I I'll leave it be. Just like the truth. Um no more, no less.
02:04:31 less. When you rekindle the relationship, you've described the conversation that you had in Kingston on the day you met at the Riverside Cafe
02:04:46 and what you've told us you said about your sentiment towards RTS activism, the friends you had there. suggested that it was on the basis that
02:05:00 suggested that it was on the basis that you were saying things that made her think you were repudiating the police
02:05:09 and seeking to embrace activism and an inter an alternative lifestyle. And that was what
02:05:20 lifestyle. And that was what motivated her to consent to sex in the rekindled relationship. I wish to give you the opportunity to respond.
02:05:30 respond. No, I don't think that's true at all. Sorry.
02:05:35 Sorry. Why don't you think it's true? um from my experience of her, our conversations, our relationship that um I understand that that's a narrative that is necessary now, but I'm afraid I don't
02:05:48 necessary now, but I'm afraid I don't think that's consistent with the truth. Did you tell Rosa that your home might be raided? Uh my real home?
02:06:00 Uh my real home? Yes.
02:06:00 Yes. No.
02:06:01 No. At any time? Correct.
02:06:07 Can I go back to the conversation you have with Detective Inspector Lambert before you re-mbark on a relationship
02:06:19 before you re-mbark on a relationship with Rosa? You've described that in a rather nicer way than the office he left it to you. Mhm. Did he give you any encouragement
02:06:33 Mhm. Did he give you any encouragement to maintain to restart the relationship with Rosa? No.
02:06:39 No. Did he try to discourage you in any way? No.
02:06:47 [snorts]
02:06:51 Once he learned that there were difficulties. Oh, put another way. When did he learn that there were difficulties in your
02:07:02 that there were difficulties in your marriage?
02:07:05 This is your marriage to Rosa.
02:07:09 Um,
02:07:17 I'm not totally sure what you mean by that because that he was always aware of the family circumstances which were always difficult perhaps. by which I was meaning in relation to the family itself not in relation to this.
02:07:28 relation to this. How keen was DI Lambert to support you in both the personal difficulties your
02:07:40 in both the personal difficulties your family was having and in andor in difficulties with your marriage. In in terms of family in general, um Bob's a very kind sort of guy. He
02:07:51 Bob's a very kind sort of guy. He traveled a long way to offer whatever support we might need as a family after the end of 2006. Um he then um subsequently was very
02:08:03 Um he then um subsequently was very supportive of me going on to um a sort of compressed system in order to support uh Rosa and the children as much as possible. He he he bent over backwards
02:08:15 possible. He he he bent over backwards to try to help us with the children.
02:08:22 Did he ever discuss with you any concern
02:08:30 about what Rosa might do when you ran into marital difficulties? No.
02:08:39 No. In particular, whether she might blow the whistle on the fact you were an undercover police officer.
02:08:45 officer. We didn't discuss it. I know that seems unlikely, but obviously there were far bigger issues for us. Far bigger. Did anybody within the Metropolitan Police Service raise that risk with you?
02:08:58 Police Service raise that risk with you? No.
02:08:59 No. Are you sure? Pretty sure. But unless you're going to point something out that indicates otherwise, I don't remember any such discussion with any.
02:09:12 We are told that Rosa
02:09:16 that Rosa never worked as a waitress and that
02:09:22 and that suggestion in the document that Rosa was a waitress in a vegan cafe is wrong. Uh okay I I'm well that's interesting. Okay. I thought she worked as a waitress
02:09:35 Okay. I thought she worked as a waitress in a vegan cafe with the activist who's the woman. She lived in a the squat in Hobin with two other activists, a man and a woman. The woman also worked with her as a a waitress in the same
02:09:47 with her as a a waitress in the same vegan cafe and she told me that was what she did when she introduced herself. Um I mean I'm not sure how significant that is, but that was absolutely my understanding.
02:10:00 I think the the vegan cafe was in a park in North London somewhere. [snorts]
02:10:08 You refer to high and low maintenance officers.
02:10:12 officers. Yeah.
02:10:13 Yeah. In your evidence, writing down any ciphers or names you need to write down. Could you give a an example of a highmaintenance officer and
02:10:26 example of a highmaintenance officer and a lowmaintenance officer? [clears throat] Um,
02:10:34 Um, you don't want me to give a cipher? If it's if it if there's no cipher and and you are there's no restriction order, you can say the name, but otherwise I don't want you to say
02:10:45 otherwise I don't want you to say one would be considered very low maintenance. Um, and I remember the conversation when I heard it was specifically about um
02:11:07 I I can't find the name of the officer on your list here and he's deceased. If you could write it down then please. Yeah.
02:11:41 Thank you.
02:11:54 [snorts]
02:11:59 That officer is are you holding him out as high or an example of high or low maintenance? When I first heard that term used, it was because he was on the phone to the office again about something. Um, and
02:12:11 office again about something. Um, and there was a conversation about he he's constantly wanting input from the office and input from his handlers. So, the conversation was along the lines of he he was high maintenance. I'd heard the
02:12:22 he was high maintenance. I'd heard the term high and low before, but for an example of it being used, I remember it was used about about the officer. Genetically modified crops. Do you
02:12:33 Genetically modified crops. Do you recall that there was a large demonstration against genetically modified crops at Watlington in Oxfordshire about a month after the J18 event?
02:12:45 about a month after the J18 event? Uh, no.
02:12:48 Uh, no. I I don't remember that. You're going to tell me that I was there now, I guess. Well, I was going to ask you if you were there.
02:12:53 there. No, I don't I don't remember it. Uh, yeah, I don't remember being on that at all. No.
02:13:01 We looked at a document uh this morning uh when I was asking you about the legal ties to the East London Collective. That document also contained a reference to
02:13:13 document also contained a reference to Steel's enforced move from her address in two months time. Can you help us with how you knew that Helen Steel was going to be the subject
02:13:24 Helen Steel was going to be the subject of an enforced move? Um, I I don't recall, but I think she might have told me. I dropped her off once at her at her flat, and I think uh she might
02:13:35 at her flat, and I think uh she might have told me that she was moving cuz I had a van. Um, something like that. And this this document is dated April 2000,
02:13:45 2000, obviously shortly before the Mayday 2000 event.
02:13:50 event. Can you help us with whether the enforced move was part of a disruption or harassment plan? No, it wasn't. No, I I think it I think
02:14:03 No, it wasn't. No, I I think it I think she would have mentioned to me that she was moved or something. I I don't remember what that was about. It sounds to me like I've taken her home and dropped her off after a Mayday meeting and she's mentioned something about it. Operation
02:14:15 Operation Gant,
02:14:17 Gant, can you help us? You've told us that there was a there seemed to be a pattern in the way the devices had been constructed um with the same
02:14:28 um with the same firework component firework component. Was there also a modus operandi for the way in which the devices were
02:14:39 devices were delivered? Um
02:14:44 I can't remember that. I think might I can't remember. I've got a I got an idea they might have been pushed through the front door or something like that, but I'm not that might well be wrong. I'm afraid it's a long time ago.
02:14:55 afraid it's a long time ago. Sent through the post. No, no, I think that I think I think they were hand delivered cuz one of them uh there was this description of a suspect leaving the scene very likely to
02:15:07 suspect leaving the scene very likely to have delivered it to the to this address. And that was one of the things that that helped us to identify that it was very probably this person
02:15:18 was very probably this person delivered in more than one way. I I I can't remember but there was an operation gent file but I I'm not sure I could remember it correctly. It's probably still in existence if it's
02:15:29 probably still in existence if it's relevant.
02:15:31 relevant. Earth first. Yeah. We saw some reporting early on in your deployment about Earth first and then it becomes much more about RTS. Yeah.
02:15:43 Yeah. Was there a resurgence of interest in Earth first towards the end of your deployment? It's the same people. It's almost there's a huge in the vin diagram of activism. There's a huge overlap between
02:15:55 activism. There's a huge overlap between lots of groups and Earth and RTS had a lot of uh overlap.
02:16:02 [snorts]
02:16:06 the your arrest at the Good Easter hunt. I I wasn't arrested at the Good Easter hunt.
02:16:13 hunt. Sorry. Your participation in the event at which there were arrests at the Good Easter Hunt Sab. Were you given any parameters before that event as to your
02:16:24 parameters before that event as to your be how you could behave? Um,
02:16:30 uh, no. Was your handler anywhere nearby? No.
02:16:36 No. Any handler anywhere nearby? Don't think so. Were you given any asurances you wouldn't be arrested? No.
02:16:44 No. Uh, we've seen the draft witness statement and I understand your evidence is you don't I I didn't write it. You don't recall writing it? Well, I my
02:16:55 You don't recall writing it? Well, I my my evidence is that I didn't write it or or provide the instructions from which it was written up. Not in terms of the content. I think I was asked if I would be willing to give a statement. I said yes, I'd be willing to give a statement, but then the
02:17:06 to give a statement, but then the statement that you've got, I didn't uh write and it wasn't written in my presence.
02:17:11 presence. Were you given any instructions about what sort of account you should give if you were ever asked to provide a witness statement?
02:17:22 statement? No. Um,
02:17:24 No. Um, the advice would be to try to avoid giving one if you possibly can, and I always did manage to avoid having to give one.
02:17:32 give one. [snorts]
02:17:33 [snorts] I'm exploring whether there was ever any discussion that you should give an account that wouldn't actually be helpful to the defense. No.
02:17:45 No. Uh,
02:17:47 Uh, the
02:17:50 the Helen Steel's suitcase. In your witness statement, you say that Rosa told you about it. Yeah, I think she mentioned something
02:18:01 Yeah, I think she mentioned something about it.
02:18:02 about it. Can you recall the circumstances in which she did so? No, I I didn't I didn't know anything about Helen Steel in any suitcase, but when I was asked questions about it by this, I was I think Rosa might have mentioned it, but
02:18:15 think Rosa might have mentioned it, but I don't know anything about Helen Steel suit. I still don't know anything about Helen Steel suitcase or what it even means.
02:18:20 means. Are you able to help us at all with how Rosa knew about that? Uh, I think well, if if I've remembered it correctly and she did mention it to me, then I I guess I would have thought that she had been told that by Helen, but it's possible that I I'm trying to
02:18:33 but it's possible that I I'm trying to remember. Did she mention a suitcase? I don't remember. Perhaps she did. I I don't remember. I think when I was asked lots of questions, I thought perhaps she did, but I don't know. I certainly don't
02:18:44 did, but I don't know. I certainly don't know anything about it.
02:18:48 The incident where you bumped into you and Mr. Healey met that you gave evidence about this morning. Is it right that you had already seen
02:19:02 Is it right that you had already seen Helen Steel in the location which please don't mention
02:19:09 or in the vicinity at that location? No. No. At any time? Yeah. At any time. Was there an occasion when you saw her when you were in a vehicle?
02:19:21 when you were in a vehicle? I don't remember seeing seeing Helen since I finished my deployment.
02:19:44 One moment please sir.
02:19:58 Thank you. That's it, sir.
02:20:04 Is there any re-examination? No. Thank you. Um
02:20:11 Um I have been provided with um uh evidence uh since you spoke about the witness statement that you made or that
02:20:22 witness statement that you made or that was made in your name that bears your name in the relation to the good Easter hunt sabot event. Um the statement uh provides
02:20:34 statement uh provides uh cogent evidence that uh the witness statement that was in your name could not have come to have
02:20:45 your name could not have come to have been prepared without you saying to someone in the Bman's office
02:20:54 office what's set out in the statement
02:20:58 probably by telephone. I had a telephone call conversation with them which I think I gave in my evidence.
02:21:04 evidence. Yes.
02:21:05 Yes. Um I don't recall ever giving any statement to them, I'm afraid. Uh was the um So is is that can I ask a question? Yes.
02:21:15 Yes. Is there a detail in the statement then which is specific to me? Um I can't answer that. Um the the the the document that you and I have seen
02:21:26 the document that you and I have seen that the witness statement which bears your name but not your signature uh it is said was sent to your address you say you didn't receive it. Mhm.
02:21:36 Mhm. Um leave that to one side because things can go wrong in the post. But the um thrust of what I'm told is that there is no way in which such a statement could
02:21:48 no way in which such a statement could have came come to have been prepared unless it was based upon what you told the person who wrote it, who drafted it
02:21:59 the person who wrote it, who drafted it over the telephone.
02:22:03 Um I don't have any I don't recall giving a witness statement over the phone, I'm afraid. Um, I mean, this is a long time ago, but
02:22:14 Um, I mean, this is a long time ago, but I remember a phone call where they asked me if I was willing to give one uh and for my details for the statement. Um, that was not a sit down, give us a witness statement over the phone, but it
02:22:25 witness statement over the phone, but it was a very short short chat. Um, if if my recollection is at odds with a very large firm of lawyers, then I'm going to have to say um perhaps my recollection is incorrect. Yeah.
02:22:39 is incorrect. Yeah. That that's all I wanted to hear. Um if there was a reason for doubting that the normal practice of their firm and most firms
02:22:53 practice of their firm and most firms was followed when preparing a witness statement then I wanted to hear it from you.
02:22:58 you. Okay. I I I will bow to their perhaps more um minuteed recollection then.
02:23:09 Then that I think concludes uh today's evidence and your evidence. Uh I think it is very unlikely that you would be
02:23:20 it is very unlikely that you would be required to come and attend to give evidence again. I don't exclude that possibility completely because I don't know any more than you do exactly what's going to happen in the next week or two.
02:23:31 going to happen in the next week or two. Um
02:23:32 Um but on the basis that uh that is your evidence may I express my gratitude to you. I know you've come here under compulsion but I appreciate that it is not uh easy for for you to speak about
02:23:45 not uh easy for for you to speak about difficult events a long time ago. I'm grateful for you to having done so. Thank you.