The witness GRD provides evidence regarding their long-term relationship with undercover officer Jim Boiling (HN14), detailing their interactions across various activist circles including Hunt Sabotage, the McLibel support campaign, and Reclaim the Streets. The testimony focuses on the personal betrayal felt by GRD, the nature of Boiling's intelligence gathering, and a suspicious burglary that occurred while Boiling was with the witness.
00:12:10 Good afternoon everybody. Uh today's evidential hearing, this afternoon's evidential hearing is being broadcast by live link but only by audio and only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the
00:12:23 after 10 minutes have elapsed since the uh events being described. Those with mobile uh devices uh behind the screen may use them to report what they hear in the uh uh hearing room uh but may may do
00:12:37 the uh uh hearing room uh but may may do so only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event that they're reporting. They may not be used for recording.
00:12:46 May the witness be sworn. Thank you.
00:12:53 I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth
00:13:04 the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:13:11 yes you have been granted anonymity in these proceedings so I will refer to you during your evidence by your cipher GRD.
00:13:23 during your evidence by your cipher GRD. I'm going to begin by just referring you to the document that we have on screen which is the first page of your witness statement dated the 9th of April 2025.
00:13:36 statement dated the 9th of April 2025. Can you confirm please that the content of that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?
00:13:48 Yes. Now, you were also a signary to a witness statement concerning the Good Easter Hunt Sabatur case dated the 11th
00:13:59 Easter Hunt Sabatur case dated the 11th of April, 2025. That's right, isn't it? Yeah, correct. But my questions to you this afternoon though will focus on what you have set out in your own statement. Now, next
00:14:13 out in your own statement. Now, next week we are going to hear an inquiry from undercover officer Jim Boiling, HM14,
00:14:21 HM14, who used undercover name Jim Sutton. In order to set the scene, I'm just going to ask you um how you first met
00:14:33 going to ask you um how you first met Jim Boiling, the undercover officer. And to do so, it may assist if I refer you to page 12 of your statement. uh beginning at paragraph 64 where you
00:14:46 beginning at paragraph 64 where you address this topic and I think your evidence in your statement was that you met him when you first traveled with the East London Hunt saboturs in around
00:14:59 East London Hunt saboturs in around 1995.
00:15:00 1995. Yeah, that is correct. Now, I'm going to ask you in due course some more details about uh your involvement uh in Hunt uh Sabbing, but I just want to set the
00:15:11 Sabbing, but I just want to set the scene in terms of your knowledge and how long you knew him uh during uh Jim Boing's uh undercover deployment. We know now that HN14 Jim Boing was
00:15:24 know now that HN14 Jim Boing was deployed between June 1995 and about September 2000. And so you would have met him um at the beginning of his deployment if you met him in
00:15:35 of his deployment if you met him in 1995. Okay. Uh when you first met him, was that uh traveling in a minibus together? Correct. Yes.
00:15:46 Correct. Yes. Now when you met Jim Boiling when you will here in due course uh saw him uh at Hunts uh sabotage um events. Is it
00:15:59 Hunts uh sabotage um events. Is it correct that he would tend to sit near the front of the minibus he was traveling uh in with Brendan Delaney rather than yourself? Yeah, I only remember him being at the front of the vehicle.
00:16:10 front of the vehicle. All right. At the front as a passenger but not a driver. Correct.
00:16:15 Correct. Okay.
00:16:17 Okay. going to take you to a particular event which I think you the way you describe it is is how you really got to know Jim Boiling and was this on the 17th of February 1996
00:16:30 17th of February 1996 at a large SAB outing to the Duke of Bowfort Hunt. Correct.
00:16:35 Correct. Now in relation to this particular uh event, it's described as a national hit by you. Could you just explain what that means though the a national hit? What
00:16:48 means though the a national hit? What does that mean in the context of hunt sabotage please? Uh it would mean that uh a collection [clears throat] of different sabotur groups from around the country would all meet together to do
00:17:00 country would all meet together to do either a hunt that is um heavily policed and so isn't normal isn't usually able to be sabbed or to a hunt that has um a
00:17:12 to be sabbed or to a hunt that has um a very big following uh and and sometimes a big security presence. Now, just to put this in context of time, I'm going to ask you some
00:17:23 time, I'm going to ask you some questions about the events that led to what's described as the Good Easter Hunt case. Well, those events were on the 10th of February, 1996. But what I'm asking you about now was a week
00:17:35 asking you about now was a week afterwards. And was there a point where you and Jim Boing became separated from the rest of the East London Sabs on this occasion?
00:17:45 occasion? Yeah, that is correct. uh we um we rest of the group went ahead uh and then I don't know how we ended up kind of closing this uh gate into a
00:17:57 kind of closing this uh gate into a field um and it was right at the beginning of the meet uh and I don't think either of us realized how many um riders and supporters there were with this particular hunt so we were closing
00:18:09 this particular hunt so we were closing we were holding the gate closed for a very long time and the whole field as it's referred to kind of rode over us and We were there for a long time. You get spat on getting hit with whips and sworn at. Um it's kind of we were both
00:18:21 sworn at. Um it's kind of we were both kind of huddled holding the gate closed. Um and that's that's the first time I kind of really had any real connection with him.
00:18:31 with him. And so it's a particular event where you are with Jim Boyley for quite an extended period of time in difficult conditions described being spat at subject of being sort of whipped by uh
00:18:42 subject of being sort of whipped by uh the huntsman. Did you also meet Jim Boing again the following year? Not in the context of hunt sabbing but at Glastenbury in 1997.
00:18:54 hunt sabbing but at Glastenbury in 1997. Uh correct. Yes. Could you help us with how you came to be in contact with Jim Boing again on that occasion? How did your paths cross, please?
00:19:04 please? Uh I I had been asked uh with a Mc Global support campaign had been asked to have a representation at the Green Futures Field at Glastenbury. Um, at the time I was kind of um kind of running
00:19:18 time I was kind of um kind of running the Mcll support campaign office. Um, they wanted Dave and Helen to appear at the festival. Neither of them were available to attend. Uh, but I'd said,
00:19:29 available to attend. Uh, but I'd said, "Well, we can do a Mcll campaign stand stall there." Um, so we got given the tickets and um, yeah, we did a McGlo support campaign stand there. uh as well
00:19:41 support campaign stand there. uh as well as um some of the other campaigns that were
00:19:45 were uh in and around the mcllyel campaign and specifically in relation to Jim Boiling. How much interaction did you have
00:19:53 have during Glastonbury 1997? You've already described
00:19:58 described a a striking event where you and Jim Boing are holding a gate closed during Hunt Sabotage. So when you saw him again,
00:20:08 again, what was the what was the discussion like? What was the the talk between you? Uh well, we hadn't seen each other since um Hunt Sabbin and that had been quite a long period. Uh
00:20:20 long period. Uh and he we kind of greet each other as as kind of friends. He was there with Reclaimed Streets and they were on the other side of the Green Futures Field which is is well known for at the time.
00:20:33 which is is well known for at the time. It had a lot of um activism, ecoactivism and animal rights campaigns, veganism, vegetarianism. Um and reclaim streets had a pitch opposite. Uh and Jim used to come over
00:20:46 opposite. Uh and Jim used to come over and hang out in the McLaren support uh stall tent as it was um for yeah most of the days from my memory. You also describe in your statement
00:20:58 You also describe in your statement after Glastenbury seeing Jim Boiling um at various squats. So for example in 1997
00:21:05 1997 uh that same year you say you bumped into him again at uh a squat in Angel Islington. Is that right? Yeah. Correct. Again what sort of interaction did you
00:21:16 Again what sort of interaction did you have when you saw him? Was it would you greet him as an old as a friend or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I think I'd gone there with some of the some of the other McLeball MC Spotlight um activists
00:21:30 other McLeball MC Spotlight um activists um and I I live quite close to there. So they were said, "Oh, you should come and check out this squat." So another example you give in your statement is you saw him again at a squat near London Bridge in December
00:21:42 squat near London Bridge in December 1999.
00:21:43 1999. Yeah, it was the last time I saw him. So this is reaching the end of his deployment, coming to the last um within the last year of his deployment. So in terms of your interaction with Jim
00:21:55 terms of your interaction with Jim Boiling, you would have seen him at various points throughout his deployment beginning with Hunt Sabotage but later when he joins reclaim the streets. Uh yes. Yeah. Correct. And probably a
00:22:07 Uh yes. Yeah. Correct. And probably a lot more regularly between Glastonbury from Glastonbury onwards. The way in which you describe Jim Boiling in your statement is that you
00:22:18 Boiling in your statement is that you were mates at that time. Would that accurately have reflected how you thought of Jim Boiling before you of course discovered that he was an undercover officer?
00:22:29 undercover officer? Uh, I would say moving on from Glastonbury and around the squatted area of of Angel Wizzington. Yes, I would say we were mates.
00:22:40 we were mates. I'm just moving to page 13 in your statement. It's paragraph 71 because I want to get an idea of how you interacted with Jim Boiling in more
00:22:52 interacted with Jim Boiling in more social context because you say uh you would drink and chat together sociably with him. Is that right? Correct.
00:23:00 Correct. Okay.
00:23:01 Okay. One of the ways in which you describe Jim Boing talking to you is paragraph 73.
00:23:09 73. You say, "I felt we trusted each other and confided in each other." And then you say this in your statement, "We were a little about other activists and liked to take the mickey out of
00:23:20 and liked to take the mickey out of them. Uh, but not to their face. We had a laugh together like mates." Now, at the time, what you're describing is being a bit little about other
00:23:33 is being a bit little about other activists, laughing at them, taking the mickey out of them. But what is your reaction now thinking back to those times knowing that he was an undercover
00:23:44 times knowing that he was an undercover officer, so you he was uh with you essentially making fun of other activists. What's your reaction looking back to those times, please? knowing that he's an undercover officer now.
00:23:58 that he's an undercover officer now. Uh quite depressing. Um but you know there was a lot of paranoia going around at that time but uh I just feel kind of betrayed really.
00:24:13 I just want to give another example and just to bring to life your interaction with Jim Boiling because you give a an example and it's under the topic of uh Dolly the sheep and I'm going to ask you
00:24:24 Dolly the sheep and I'm going to ask you if we can just turn to page 14 and it's paragraph 78 and 79 in your statement because you there set out a recollection
00:24:35 because you there set out a recollection in 1998
00:24:38 in 1998 uh when uh Jim Boiling and some other activists gathered uh at your uh squatted flat in King's Cross. Is that right? Correct. C can you just help us with what's what
00:24:49 can you just help us with what's what was the nature of that gathering? Why had everyone come together [clears throat] there at that flat? Um
00:24:57 Um I think possibly the central London location uh and it was quite spacey and um I was mainly there on my own. Now you say in your statement that the
00:25:09 Now you say in your statement that the meeting was to discuss kidnapping Dolly the sheep. Can you just explain the relevance of that and and why the group would be discussing that?
00:25:20 would be discussing that? It
00:25:21 It it was a meeting to um it's like a feasibility meeting, you know, was it possible? Was it doable? What do you need to consider? Um,
00:25:34 Um, yeah, that was kind of what it was about. There was a lot myself and Jim and another activist who who I knew quite well, they didn't really have much input into that meeting.
00:25:45 input into that meeting. And you you explain that uh Dolly the sheep was the first clone sheep and in terms of your interest in animal rights um that was part of the mo motivation of
00:25:56 um that was part of the mo motivation of the group discussing it but that you and Jim Boiling mocked later some of the activists who had described themselves as as
00:26:07 had described themselves as as high-profile activists in that particular event. Correct. And so is this another example of at the time you considering Jim
00:26:18 of at the time you considering Jim Boiling another activist uh playful mocking of some of the other activists but now again looking back on what he was doing mocking activists while spying
00:26:29 was doing mocking activists while spying on them. H how do you feel about those conversations? So at the time of course laughing uh with him but laughing to some extent at uh at other activists
00:26:41 to some extent at uh at other activists describing themselves as high-profile. How do you feel about that now looking back on it please? Well the same description as I give ear gave earlier but it's also you know maybe a way of trying to get me on board
00:26:53 maybe a way of trying to get me on board with
00:26:55 with um
00:26:57 um future plans that Jim may have had. I'd like to ask you about London Greenpeace and now you refer to London Greenpeace
00:27:09 Greenpeace at paragraph 12 on page three of your statement
00:27:15 statement and the way in which you describe your involvement. I [clears throat] wonder if we can just bring that up on screen is that in 1997 uh you were involved with the relaunch
00:27:26 uh you were involved with the relaunch of London Gree piece and you describe how you attended uh regular uh meetings and then you say this that you were the key activist running the office. Could you just help us with uh why you've
00:27:39 you just help us with uh why you've described yourself as the key activist running the office practically? What what did that mean? It was more of a location item really. I lived very close
00:27:51 location item really. I lived very close to the Panther House office. Um, somebody had been running the McGel support campaign from their flat close by for a very very long time and I think they were just a bit u burnt out. So um
00:28:02 they were just a bit u burnt out. So um the office was moved out of someone's flat into a commercial commercially left space. Uh I lived close by. I mean, there was probably five or six key
00:28:13 there was probably five or six key holders, uh, but I lived the closest, so I tended to be in the office more than anybody else. I'd I'd uh bring the mail in. I'd check the mail and reply to mail and go over the answer
00:28:24 reply to mail and go over the answer machine more than probably anybody else. Going to ask if we can put a document up on screen, which is an intelligence report uh that features your
00:28:37 report uh that features your name. It is um MPS 40634. So it is your tab B1. Now this is one of
00:28:49 So it is your tab B1. Now this is one of Jim Boiling HN14's intelligence reports. We can see the date of it information obtained 30th of October typed up on the 31st of October 1997.
00:29:02 31st of October 1997. Yeah.
00:29:02 Yeah. And as you can see there, the way in which his report is set out, intelligence psycho dream, Jim Boing's code name. And then the title of the report is London Greenpeace. And I'd
00:29:16 report is London Greenpeace. And I'd just like to um get your evidence on terms of the accuracy of this particular report. So he says the recently reformed London Greenpiece has finally got its act
00:29:28 Greenpiece has finally got its act together sufficiently to recommence the weekly meetings which will now be held every Thursday at 5 and the address in
00:29:39 every Thursday at 5 and the address in King's Cross. What was that address? Was that the the squat that you were referring to? That is a um a commercial office space and resource center. Um and uh a lot of
00:29:54 and resource center. Um and uh a lot of groups use that address as a postal address.
00:29:56 address. All right. And again in terms of this report which is 1997 it goes on uh to say that the first meeting will take place on the 6th of November. And in in broad terms is
00:30:07 of November. And in in broad terms is that is that accurate? Uh it's it's about right. Yeah it's about it it kind of with the the MLB support campaign coming to a
00:30:19 the MLB support campaign coming to a close. Um although the campaign continued
00:30:23 continued um there was um there was um a thought within the group from some people that perhaps London Greenpeace should be relaunched
00:30:36 Greenpeace should be relaunched um off the back of the momentum from created by the global support campaign. If we look at the next paragraph in the report, amongst the leading lights in
00:30:47 report, amongst the leading lights in this rebirth are such notable characters as GRD. So your name here, of course, we've um redacted it and put your GD cipher over it, but it goes on North
00:31:00 cipher over it, but it goes on North London Hunt Sabotur Association organizer, McLeel, Stalwart, and occasional EF activists. Now just to break that down, that description there
00:31:11 break that down, that description there of you being amongst the leading lights. Now in terms of your involvement in the various groups, is that a fair description of you? One of the leading lights in the
00:31:22 lights in the uh uh North North London Sabs. Absolutely. McLeel, I I've been a part of the campaign for a while. I wouldn't say I was a leading light within it. Um occasional air first activist. Uh, the
00:31:34 occasional air first activist. Uh, the only things that I would consider I've ever could possibly um align with her first are meetings and actions I've carried out
00:31:46 meetings and actions I've carried out with Jim Boing, usually with his in with him organizing them. I wouldn't I wouldn't usually outside of um
00:31:58 um my known relationship with Jim Bolan would consider myself an first activist. So in relation to what is described here that talking about the recently reformed
00:32:11 that talking about the recently reformed London Greenpeace uh recommencing the weekly meetings. Are you able to help us with how Jim Boing would have um obtained that information, that
00:32:23 obtained that information, that intelligence so that he could put it in this report? Um
00:32:29 Um he would he would have known I hate the hunt bit from our history together. Uh it was no secret that I was involved with McLeel but I also think you know for his time at Glastenbury I think he
00:32:41 for his time at Glastenbury I think he probably the the starting up of London Greenpeace was was quite quite a conversational piece that was a part of Glastonbury we we we were trying to highlight the McLarel support campaign
00:32:52 highlight the McLarel support campaign but also the the wider issues that that um that kicked off the McLeel support campaign of which London Greenpeace was integral to all of that. So because this was the sort of topic of conversation at
00:33:05 was the sort of topic of conversation at Glastonbury. Yeah.
00:33:06 Yeah. That could have been the foundation for for this particular report is attendance there.
00:33:11 there. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I'm not sure the other names that follow were there that year. Um but yeah, we we we probably potentially would have been carrying London Animal Action
00:33:22 been carrying London Animal Action information at the McLeel campaign. And just to complete the report refers to Paul Gravit, London Animal Action, and Ben Ley. And then Gravit spoke at
00:33:33 and Ben Ley. And then Gravit spoke at the recent RTS meeting calling for support for the organization. Is that anything that you yourself would have witnessed or uh No. I mean, Paul Paul was always very
00:33:45 uh No. I mean, Paul Paul was always very supportive of restarting London Greenpeace. Um but I can't can't um confirm that he called for it in an RTS meeting because I hadn't attended any at that point. Now I'm going to ask if we can sort of
00:33:57 Now I'm going to ask if we can sort of zoom out so we can just see the full report uh back on screen please.
00:34:07 Now there's a source comment at the bottom and can you see it says in bold the group will eventually house most of the members from last time round though presumably without the private
00:34:19 presumably without the private detectives. Does that mean anything to you uh reading that there? So this is a report that Jim Boiling has submitted. Uh it is
00:34:31 that Jim Boiling has submitted. Uh it is um typed up in the SDS office and then the source comment will have come directly from Jim Boiling and he makes the comment that the group will eventually house most of the members
00:34:42 eventually house most of the members from the last time round though presumably without the private detectives. When you read that did that make any sense to you? Did that remind you of anything please?
00:34:53 you of anything please? Uh it it it would have uh it would have reminded me of a period before I was involved with London Green Peace or Mc Gibbel support campaign. That would have been the early
00:35:04 That would have been the early infiltration of the of the group to try and stop the distribution of the what's wrong with McDonald's leaflet. Okay. Now we can see at the top left hand corner of the report where underneath
00:35:16 corner of the report where underneath the words intelligence report. Can you see it says report number S520?
00:35:23 [clears throat] Now I'm going to ask if we can put another document on screen. So it's at your tab B2. It's MPS 0247640.
00:35:35 So this document here and it's not on it doesn't appear on the document itself but the inquiry have dated this as being the 26th of May 1998. Okay. So this is a
00:35:46 the 26th of May 1998. Okay. So this is a document created on or about the 26th of May 1998. It's headed psycho dream. So Jim Boiling's uh code name and you can see that it is split into subjects
00:35:58 see that it is split into subjects various names then report numbers and then comments. So for example you can see the top one we've put a privacy box over their name. There's a report number 538 and the comment is it's in relation
00:36:10 538 and the comment is it's in relation to opencast mine trip. If we go please to page two,
00:36:19 we can see in this document that there is your name just below the middle of the page, GD. And can you see there's that report number 520, London GP,
00:36:31 that report number 520, London GP, London Greenpeace, which was the the title of the report that we would just been looking at. And so in relation to all the reports relating to Jim Boiling
00:36:44 all the reports relating to Jim Boiling at this time, so May 1998, your name just appears in that one report. I'm going to ask in terms of your interaction
00:36:56 your interaction with Jim Boing and you describe him at the time as a mate in this this period. What was your reaction when you saw for example the list of the reports and in
00:37:07 example the list of the reports and in fact the one that you're name you're only mentioned in one by name. What was your reaction to that? I was a bit surprised. Why were you surprised? Um
00:37:20 Um I I thought I would have been mentioned a little bit more.
00:37:28 And in terms of being mentioned more, is that in the context of uh your involvement uh interacting with Jim
00:37:39 involvement uh interacting with Jim Boiling in Hunt Sabotage?
00:37:43 Uh potentially. Yes.
00:37:48 Yes. and from
00:37:52 and from yeah I mean it's the timeline I think was around the time that we're at you yeah you know Glastonbury and Dolly Deep but that's in around this period isn't it
00:38:03 it so at the time that this document um itself was produced in 1998 uh you and Jim Boiling knew each other pretty well okay yeah
00:38:14 okay yeah is that yeah okay we can take that down Please, I'm going to now move to the Mcllibel support campaign. And in fact, you deal with the Mcll support campaign, how you became
00:38:26 Mcll support campaign, how you became involved on page two of your statements uh at paragraph nine. Uh but you describe how you became involved in 1995.
00:38:36 1995. Could you just help us with how you first came in involved uh with the mal support campaign? Uh it would have been from uh fellow hunt sabs that were um working on the
00:38:47 hunt sabs that were um working on the muk spotlight website. Uh
00:38:51 Uh and I just wanted to get involved leafleting and we we'd take some of the mukspotlight leaflets and the mc library support campaign leaflets and I'd add them as part of the hunt sabotur
00:39:02 them as part of the hunt sabotur uh fundraising stools [clears throat] that I used to put on quite regularly. But in fact, from starting off helping with leafleting, by 1997, 1998, 1999,
00:39:15 with leafleting, by 1997, 1998, 1999, you describe how you're you're helping to run the Mcll campaign office. Is that right?
00:39:21 right? Yeah.
00:39:22 Yeah. And in fact, the office itself moved to your your flat at one point. It it did. it would it was quite a big commercial space and
00:39:34 commercial space and it was only really me using it on a and that was only like on a weekly basis. So it just seemed a waste of money. So it was it was more of a
00:39:45 So it was it was more of a just a storage headache for me having lots of t-shirts and posters for the you you you refer to a storage headache with things like t-shirts but what about like correspondence and documentation
00:39:57 like correspondence and documentation relating to the migos. So they that's that still continued to be sent to five Caledonian road which um was just much easier for me to go and collect. Um so I I would have collected it more
00:40:09 Um so I I would have collected it more regularly I think. Could you help us with the extent if any that Jim Boiling was actually in that flat?
00:40:20 flat? Um so he'd he'd been in a different flat which was a squatted flat. Um, but that wasn't the flat that I moved uh the McLeel office
00:40:31 flat that I moved uh the McLeel office to. Um, but it was one that when I'd moved to a housing co-op property, uh, the Angel is, um, Jim, I believe must was around there
00:40:42 um, Jim, I believe must was around there a couple of times, maybe more. I'm going to ask you about something that Jim Boiling stated in his statement, and I think for
00:40:54 stated in his statement, and I think for this purpose, I wonder if we can just bring up um, uh, HN14's witness statements. Uh, please,
00:41:04 I'm going to ask if we could just please turn in this statement. It's page 134. It's paragraph 314.6. So, you can see there that in his
00:41:16 So, you can see there that in his witness statement to the inquiry, Jim Boing says this. I did not pass on any personal information about Helen Steel to McDonald's in the context of the
00:41:27 to McDonald's in the context of the McLeel trial. And then he says this, I had no inside knowledge of the McLeel matter. As far as I'm aware, there was
00:41:38 matter. As far as I'm aware, there was no police operation and therefore no information that could be passed on. I do recall that we discussed the newspaper reporting of the McLeel case. In relation to those words though that I
00:41:50 In relation to those words though that I had no inside knowledge of the McLeel matter,
00:41:55 matter, what's your reaction to reading that please?
00:41:59 please? Depends on which timeline in the McLeel world you're referring to. I would say he probably had no knowledge of the McLeel
00:42:09 McLeel uh support campaign and the case up to its uh finality. But after that he you know from that Glastenbury point on he could have easily accessed he was he
00:42:20 he could have easily accessed he was he was sitting sitting in a in a activist space and
00:42:27 space and so in terms of a time marker if we Glastonbury 1997 the way you describe it he's sitting in the Mcll space in Glastonbury and
00:42:38 in the Mcll space in Glastonbury and this is over what a series of days that he's interacting with the we would stand would been there for like 5 days. So I remember Jim there at least three of them. Would he have had any access to the
00:42:52 Would he have had any access to the office when it was in your Islington? Yeah.
00:42:56 Yeah. At flat.
00:42:58 At flat. What What access would he have had? Well, uh
00:43:04 Well, uh he came in I remember having a couple of meetings there. He came in. Uh I'm not the most tidiest of people so it's you know my desk is just full of activist
00:43:15 know my desk is just full of activist stuff. At that time when I was uh in the housing co-op place I was uploading um daily material onto the Muk Spotlight website. Um so uh I would two hours of
00:43:29 website. Um so uh I would two hours of my day would be spent working on Muk Spotlight or MC Liable stuff. Uh, so I'd have stuff all over the place. I'd have correspondence, uh, and I would have,
00:43:41 uh, and I would have, you know, other stuff associated with the campaign. Do you recall anything specific or or general in your interaction with Jim Boing about uh, Miel, the McLeel support
00:43:55 Boing about uh, Miel, the McLeel support campaign? Was that something of a topic that you discussed with him or or not?
00:44:06 I can't remember specifically talking about it.
00:44:09 about it. Okay.
00:44:13 But I didn't really I wasn't uh the trial by the time my involvement with uh supporting Dave and Helen was you know that I didn't really have much dealings with the trial element of it and and the
00:44:24 with the trial element of it and and the buildup to it. Was it through London green piece that you had
00:44:31 you had an involvement with reclaim the streets? Is that how that developed please? Uh there is a connection there. Yes. Um I' I'd attended the reclaimed streets
00:44:43 I' I'd attended the reclaimed streets parties before um London Greenpeace had relaunched. Okay.
00:44:49 Okay. Now just so we have a a clearer idea of how many reclaim the streets events or meetings that you attended could you help us with that please and the time
00:45:00 help us with that please and the time period? Uh I had attended the uh Angel Street Party, the West London uh motorway street party, uh March of
00:45:11 motorway street party, uh March of Social Justice, um Trafalga Square, um gorilla gardening. We'll come back to the gorilla gardening
00:45:22 We'll come back to the gorilla gardening in term maybe if we sort of divide it into meetings. How many actual formal reclaim the streets meetings? Uh I remember going to two two of those. When you attended those, did you
00:45:35 When you attended those, did you interact with Jim Boiling or I don't even remember him being there.
00:45:44 Now, I'm going to ask if we can just refer again to your statement at page three, please. It's paragraph 14.
00:46:02 Now, we'll we'll come back to Carnival against um the capital in 1999, but it's it's this I want to ask you about. is at the end of paragraph 14 where you say
00:46:13 the end of paragraph 14 where you say while in my uh flat you say while in my flat for planning meeting he picked up an old copy of a magazine that covered the West London
00:46:26 magazine that covered the West London street party on the motorway. Correct. He told me the article was very accurate as he was involved in the jackhammer part of the action to dig up a section of the motorway to plant a
00:46:39 a section of the motorway to plant a tree. Now, in relation to that particular event, the digging up the road with with a jackhammer, is is that something that you recall or recall being talked about
00:46:54 you recall or recall being talked about uh around my flat? Yeah, I mean there was there was a few things talked about. It was the hiring of the jackhammer and the hiring of a vehicle and and where they um
00:47:05 they um where their action started from that day to get the sound system to that part of the motorway.
00:47:13 So, is this uh digging up part of the motorway uh with a jackhammer and and then filling it with a bit of soil and putting a tree in in there as a as part
00:47:25 putting a tree in in there as a as part of the demonstration. Is that the the demonstration did have that element to it? Uh my recollection of Jim's involvement with that and it is vague is
00:47:38 involvement with that and it is vague is he he was involved in either hiring the jackhammer or hiring the vehicle or hiring something for that for that action on that day. How would you know that he had hired the
00:47:51 How would you know that he had hired the He told me. Sorry. Who told you? He told me. Okay.
00:48:04 And when he described that to you, what was your reaction at at the time? Probably laughed. Yeah.
00:48:15 In the context of your interaction with uh Jim Boiling, Reclaimed the Streets, one of the things you refer to in your statement is at paragraph 76
00:48:28 statement is at paragraph 76 uh beginning on page 13 is an occasion uh when Jim Boing approached you to drive him to collect some Reclaim the Streets posters.
00:48:41 some Reclaim the Streets posters. Yeah. And this you describe it as being roughly in 1998. And then you describe a burglary taking place. I wonder if you could just help us with the details of this. And so
00:48:54 us with the details of this. And so how common was it for Jim Boiling uh to uh approach you to have some involvement in
00:49:05 in reclaim the streets matters? Was this out of the blue or was it typical? Um, this wouldn't this would have been around the same time as the Dolly the sheep meeting cuz I I wasn't in that squatted property for that long. Um, so
00:49:18 squatted property for that long. Um, so this is the same squatting king's cross. Um, I from memory I think this may be the first time he'd asked me to use my van.
00:49:29 van. Now, as you describe it, he asks you to uh pick him up and you go off to collect some posters. And this was during the day. Yes. Yep. And so you return and you find that
00:49:41 Yep. And so you return and you find that your property was burgled. Y could you just give us an idea of what was taken? Uh two two-way radios, um camera, some pictures,
00:49:53 pictures, uh some cash, uh and my turntables. Now, in terms of the camera, you described that this is a camera that was
00:50:04 described that this is a camera that was used on on hunt sabs. Is that right? Does that also apply with the two-way radios? Are they something? Yeah, they were only used for that.
00:50:15 Yeah, they were only used for that. When you discovered that Jim Boing was an undercover officer, what were your thoughts about that particular burglary and what happened? Do did you see it in a new light?
00:50:27 Do did you see it in a new light? Um,
00:50:30 Um, it didn't it it I'd forgotten all about it actually. Someone had reminded me about it.
00:50:36 about it. Um, and then I was like, "Oh, wow." Yeah, of course. Why, of course. Um, well, now they just tied up that, you know, there was only one person knew
00:50:47 you know, there was only one person knew that I was going to be out all day and and that was Jim.
00:50:56 Uh, and one of the things that you've set out at the end of your paragraph 76, I'd like the inquiry to investigate any possible link between the SDS and that particular burglary and whether it was a
00:51:08 particular burglary and whether it was a a coincidence or or not. Sure. Yeah. Okay.
00:51:12 Okay. May we move to Earth first because you describe and again it may assist to have page three paragraph 15 of your statements in relation to your
00:51:23 statements in relation to your introduction to Earth First. You say that your friendships with Jim Sutton and another activist introduced you to Earth First.
00:51:35 activist introduced you to Earth First. Could you just help us with how that came about in terms of your involvement and Jim Boiling's role in you effectively joining Earth First?
00:51:47 effectively joining Earth First? Uh I don't think I joined Earth First.
00:51:54 Um
00:52:00 just referring to so what you've stated is my friendships with Jim Sutton and another activist introduced me to Earth first. They both asked me to join them as part of an affinity group carrying
00:52:12 as part of an affinity group carrying out actions for the London group. I agreed. And so is it the affinity group that you were involved in more than Earth first itself? Correct.
00:52:24 Correct. And when it you [clears throat] have referred to Jim Sutton, Jim Boiling introducing you to Earth First or the Affinity Group a long time ago, but do
00:52:36 Affinity Group a long time ago, but do you have any recollection of how he did this? It was his suggestion that we should have like a group of four or five or six of us in London that we all could trust to carry out actions.
00:52:56 What sort of actions that was left open?
00:53:03 This particular affinity group you mentioned three to four. What what was the total number that the group is going to be? Uh no that was never discussed.
00:53:14 Uh no that was never discussed. Okay.
00:53:19 And was this does this stand out? Was this exceptional or was it typical of Jim Boiling being the person suggesting creating groups going on actions? H how
00:53:32 creating groups going on actions? H how proactive was he with um events and organizing? I mean my my my involvement with Jim would um would suggest that I I was asked I think there
00:53:44 suggest that I I was asked I think there was an element of trust that he had in me that he'd asked me to be involved with with actions or would sound me out on whether I'd be interested. Um
00:53:56 so yeah that's my experience.
00:54:01 Can we please move now to the genetic engineering network gen or gen? Yeah.
00:54:08 Yeah. Now you say at paragraph 16 which we have there on screen I was that you were active in in Jen between 97 and 2002
00:54:19 active in in Jen between 97 and 2002 and you say there's some crossover between Earth first and Jen. Can you remember what involvement if any Jim Boiling had in the jetetic
00:54:31 Jim Boiling had in the jetetic engineering network from from your recollection? Uh I can only um the Dolly the sheep would have been a genetics campaign possibly that uh first um the
00:54:46 campaign possibly that uh first um the operation in uh Ireland that is stated in my uh statement uh was also a genetic slash uh first action. Now, um,
00:54:58 slash uh first action. Now, um, in relation to what you've just described, the um, GM action in Ireland, you you've set this out in your witness statement from page 14, paragraph 8.
00:55:12 statement from page 14, paragraph 8. I'm not going to, in fact, ask you about what happened in Ireland because you you set out the details. Yeah. in your uh statements and we're concerned with what
00:55:23 statements and we're concerned with what happened uh in England in in this inquiry, but what you have stated is that
00:55:32 that at paragraph 80 that Jim Boiling and another activist approached you in 1997
00:55:41 in 1997 to be involved in an action in Ireland to discover and destroy a genetic crop of Sugar beat and so in terms of the idea the who approached who
00:55:55 idea the who approached who it was again Jim Boiling who approached you. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay.
00:56:01 Okay. Now in relation to Jim Boiling approaching you action having taken place. What you say a few
00:56:13 having taken place. What you say a few paragraphs further down afterwards is that you you added this. you say at paragraph 85,
00:56:26 but I will but I have to add that I would never have completed the Irish action uh references above without Jim's
00:56:37 action uh references above without Jim's help. The planning and logistics really did depend on Jim's action. I remember him pushing the group to complete the task and I don't believe it would have
00:56:49 task and I don't believe it would have happened uh without him. Uh, and so knowing what you know now of that he was an undercover officer, what's your reaction
00:57:01 what's your reaction when you discover that he was a a UCO, thinking back to events such as this of him suggesting the idea to you and in fact pushing the group to carry this
00:57:13 fact pushing the group to carry this out?
00:57:14 out? Um, I mean I was really really surprised. I would I would never have guessed. His enthusiasm and wanting to get the job done attitude would never have, you know, I it's still a shock to
00:57:25 have, you know, I it's still a shock to me to be honest that he's discovered as an undercover. Um the the the iron the island operation was you know it wouldn't have happened really
00:57:36 know it wouldn't have happened really without him. Now, just in relation to what you've just said, I'm going to ask if we can now just take that um statement down and turn back to Jim Boiling's statement.
00:57:49 turn back to Jim Boiling's statement. So, if we pull up on screen HN14's witness statement, it's page 96, please, paragraph 176. I just want to ask you about what
00:58:01 about what he has set out here in this paragraph. He says, "I was never involved in violence to the person. On occasions, I was involved in violence to property. I was part of a group of activists
00:58:12 was part of a group of activists involved in breaking into property, for example, breaking into the Mayday building." And then he says, "I was part of a group of six people who destroyed a genetically modified crop research site
00:58:23 genetically modified crop research site in the Republic of Ireland. My involvement in these would have been where I had no option other than to participate or risk getting exposed. And
00:58:35 participate or risk getting exposed. And so again, when reading that that his involvement in activities such as the genetically modified crop uh incident
00:58:46 genetically modified crop uh incident that we have just been talking about where he says um that his involvement in the east would have been where he had no option other than to participate or risk getting exposed. What's your reaction to
00:58:57 getting exposed. What's your reaction to reading that please? It's not true.
00:59:12 Can we go back to the topic of hunt sabotage and you describe your involvement? You begin paragraph 17 on
00:59:23 involvement? You begin paragraph 17 on page four of your statement. So, thank you. We can take um Jim Boing's statement down and go back to GD's witness statement, please. page four.
00:59:36 [clears throat]
00:59:41 Just to put into context how you yourself became involved in hunt sabotage and what groups you were involved in, is it correct that you started the North London uh huntab group
00:59:55 started the North London uh huntab group in about 1993, 1994?
00:59:59 1994? Correct. And so that involvement lasting u until um as you set out here 2006
01:00:09 correct. Okay.
01:00:11 Okay. Now if we move to paragraph 27 of your statement you set out there that in 92
01:00:22 statement you set out there that in 92 you joined the Harlow Hunt SAB group involved with the group for a few years until 9495. You then describe in the next paragraph moving into North London in 1993
01:00:35 moving into North London in 1993 and you describe your um beginning uh a degree and this is at paragraph 28. If we just highlight paragraph 28
01:00:47 If we just highlight paragraph 28 please.
01:00:48 please. So you begin a degree course in in environmental science. Yes, correct. And so does this reflect uh your [clears throat]
01:00:59 your [clears throat] interest in environmental matters uh animal welfare? Uh yeah, correct. Okay. Now, even though you've moved to North London, you described how you travel to meet the Harlow uh uh
01:01:12 travel to meet the Harlow uh uh Huntsabur group and then it was suggested to restart the North London Huntsab group uh which had been active in the 1980s and then you restarted the group in 1993
01:01:24 and then you restarted the group in 1993 to 94. Uh and then you said that the group amalgamated with is it the East London Hunt Sabotur group? Is that right?
01:01:33 right? Correct.
01:01:37 So your involvement essentially was with the north London hunt saboturs but also meeting up with those in the East London's hunt sab group but also in due
01:01:48 London's hunt sab group but also in due course those in other hunt sabotur groups such as Essex Hunt saboturs. Is that right? Yep. Correct. All right. Just to get an idea of the sort of activity that you were involved uh in,
01:02:02 activity that you were involved uh in, [clears throat] you described from paragraph 33 that you uh regularly trespassed and you described how you would get into heated verbal confrontation with hunt riders
01:02:15 verbal confrontation with hunt riders and supporters. You went out with the aim only of using nonviolent direct uh action to save wildlife, but then you describe how you
01:02:26 wildlife, but then you describe how you became the focus of um violence and just in terms of the violence that took place during these uh
01:02:37 violence that took place during these uh hunt sabs. Who was violent against who please in your experience of hunt sabbing? uh hunt supporters, hunt riders, and occasionally the
01:02:49 hunt riders, and occasionally the police,
01:02:52 especially in Essics.
01:02:56 You describe here in your statement that you believed in direct action to save wildlife, and that would include, for example, uh damaging feeasant pens and
01:03:07 example, uh damaging feeasant pens and being uh willing and prepared to be arrested for criminal damage. Yes, correct.
01:03:14 correct. But in terms of the violence that would develop, you describe in particular incident involving a shotgun uh being fired near your presence. Could could
01:03:25 fired near your presence. Could could you just paint a picture for us please of what that involved where someone was firing a shotgun in your direction? Uh well it it happened I won't say it happened really regularly but over the
01:03:37 happened really regularly but over the period of time that I sabbed it it happened quite a lot. I mean, you you you'd be trying to keep up with the hounds or wherever the hunt were. And sometimes you'd run across a field or a
01:03:48 sometimes you'd run across a field or a woodland where there there's some shooting taking place. Um, so saboturs, you'd think, well, we just stand in front of them. They can't shoot anymore. They're supposed to their weapons and but that doesn't
01:04:00 their weapons and but that doesn't doesn't always happen. They'll just try to intimidate you by firing shots above your head. Of course, one of the important topics we are looking at is the justification for undercover
01:04:12 the justification for undercover officers doing what they did. May I ask you this? What would you say if someone put this to you that well is there is there not some justification in having
01:04:25 there not some justification in having an undercover officer in a group where violence erupted sometimes with shotguns that uh criminal damage would take place? What was what would you your
01:04:36 place? What was what would you your reaction be to someone who suggests that in fact there was some justification in undercover officers going into groups um such as hunt saboturs? Uh I well I don't see it as any justification. I mean the
01:04:49 see it as any justification. I mean the majority of the time you're just trespassing which would have been a civil offense to begin with.
01:05:00 The good Easter hunt sabotur case arising out of events on the 10th of February 19 96. And this is something that you refer
01:05:11 96. And this is something that you refer to at page seven of your report of your um witness statement at paragraph 37. You make clear here and you explain uh that good Easter was the location of a
01:05:25 that good Easter was the location of a hunt organized by the Essex Union. Correct.
01:05:29 Correct. Okay.
01:05:30 Okay. that particular hunt group in terms of uh how violent they were. Could you uh provide your view at the time of how
01:05:43 provide your view at the time of how violent or otherwise that particular group was the Essex Union, please? Um
01:05:51 Um we would generally not sab them. It was too it was too dangerous, too risky. We we would need when [clears throat] we used to go out as North London or East London, North
01:06:02 as North London or East London, North London and East London used to amalgamate because we both had many buses, but we didn't really always fill them up with uh 8 to 12 people. Uh and then we'd meet up with an uh an Essex group, one from Colchester and a bit
01:06:14 group, one from Colchester and a bit later one from Basan. So there'd be three or four vehicles and for the Essex Union that is not possible to try and sabotage that hunt with that many people
01:06:26 sabotage that hunt with that many people and that many vehicles. Why not? Why not? It's just too violent. You'd get your vehicle smashed up or the police
01:06:32 police the police operation would be so considerable that you'd all be arrested by midday.
01:06:40 Now on on that particular day, uh is it right that before any of the arrests took place, uh you uh transferred to um
01:06:54 took place, uh you uh transferred to um a van uh from being with Jim Boiling to a van that uh included Brendan me. Correct. So, in terms of your evidence,
01:07:05 Correct. So, in terms of your evidence, because we're only concerned with what you saw uh and heard when uh others were arrested
01:07:14 arrested uh in the uh Danbury uh car park, uh you weren't in the vicinity at the time. You didn't witness any of that. Correct.
01:07:22 Correct. All right. Uh you did witness u Brendan me being arrested. Yeah.
01:07:29 Yeah. And in terms of what followed the court cases, I'm interested in what involvement you had to that aspect of
01:07:41 involvement you had to that aspect of matters because I think you after Brendan me was arrested, you were willing to be a witness uh in in his defense. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah.
01:07:52 Correct. Yeah. Okay. What I'd like to ask you about is what involvement do you recall Jim Boing having in those cases? So, the court cases arising out
01:08:05 cases? So, the court cases arising out of the arrests um in the in the car park and the arrest of Brendan me. Can you recall the uh court cases that followed or
01:08:17 the uh court cases that followed or discussions about I think there were different court cases. So the the arrests in the car park were heard separately to Brendan Mi's case and the one that I was giving evidence for. And if in relation to the one that you
01:08:32 And if in relation to the one that you were um present during Brendan Mi's arrest,
01:08:36 arrest, was Jim Boing involved in any way? No. In that would he have been involved in any discussions about the case, that particular case? Not that I'm aware of. Okay.
01:08:47 Okay. the other case involving the arrests of Simon Taylor, Ben Ley, Brendan Delaney. Were you privy to discussions about that
01:08:58 Were you privy to discussions about that that case? Um,
01:09:01 Um, well, as as as is traditional, if anyone gets arrested, none of us go home until everyone's been released. So, we'd have all been outside the police station until everyone's been released. Um, and
01:09:12 until everyone's been released. Um, and then, you know, we'd have all heard about what had happened later on. Would you have known what Jim Boiling's discussions were with the others in
01:09:24 discussions were with the others in terms of that other case in any I mean I didn't really I didn't really know him that well then. No.
01:09:28 No. Okay.
01:09:32 And so whether he agreed to be a witness or not at that stage is not something that you would have been aware of.
01:09:45 One of the reasons that Jim Boing um
01:09:51 um infiltrated Hunt Sabotur groups is referred to in his targeting strategy. We didn't bring it up on screen, but I'm just going to refer you to what is set
01:10:03 just going to refer you to what is set out there. It it refers to taking part in hunt sabotage that DC boiling will be and this is what it says will be following an essential and authentic
01:10:15 following an essential and authentic route towards acceptance by ALF activists. Okay. And again we didn't go to it but in the good Easter hunts uh case uh the statement at paragraph 26
01:10:28 case uh the statement at paragraph 26 there the statement that you were also a signary to it states this this question about whether there was any connection between our hunts groups and the ALF
01:10:39 between our hunts groups and the ALF goes to the heart of the justification used by the SDS for deploying Jim boiling into our lives. So I'm going to ask you in terms of that targeting strategy that Jim Boiling had that the
01:10:52 strategy that Jim Boiling had that the justification was well if you deploy into hunt sabotur groups that will help you infiltrate uh and uh obtain
01:11:05 you infiltrate uh and uh obtain intelligence about more serious matters the animal liberation uh front. I'm just going to ask you in terms of that that justification does does that uh
01:11:19 justification does does that uh does that make sense that there was in fact
01:11:22 fact doesn't make sense to me. No, I've I've I don't know of anybody that in in all the years of Sabin that's ever been associated with the
01:11:33 in the groups that I was involved with. No association. Not
01:11:42 in terms of the activities that you became involved in and this is something you refer to on page nine of your statement at from
01:11:55 page nine of your statement at from paragraph 45 is
01:11:59 is that you refer to paragraph 45 for example uh regularly uh trespassing and I'm just going to ask you this just in terms of what you saw Jim Boiling to
01:12:11 in terms of what you saw Jim Boiling to do too.
01:12:14 do too. Would he have regularly trespassed from what you saw? Um, I was a very very good runner and I generally left the van if if the hounds
01:12:26 generally left the van if if the hounds were in sight or the hunt was in sight, I would leave the van and I would not return until the end of the day on some days. I don't really remember seeing Jim out in the field that often. I don't think he potentially was a running kind
01:12:37 think he potentially was a running kind of sab.
01:12:42 You go on in the next paragraph to talk about on occasions that you have destroyed
01:12:48 destroyed genetically modified crops. Now we've already addressed what happened and the planning for Ireland but was there any other occasion
01:12:59 Ireland but was there any other occasion where that you can recall where GM crops were destroyed that Jim Boing was involved in or was it just that occasion
01:13:10 involved in or was it just that occasion from memory just that occasion?
01:13:15 Now, you return to this topic in your next paragraph 47 of [clears throat] violence not being used by you uh but needing to defend yourself on uh many
01:13:28 needing to defend yourself on uh many occasions whilst huntabbing. Correct. C could you help us with anything that you saw
01:13:35 saw of Jim Boiling involved in violence? Was he involved in violence in any way? I never saw that happen. No. Okay.
01:13:49 I want to ask you now about another undercover officer who we are calling HN3 and his cover name was Jason Bishop. HN3 Jason Bishop was deployed October 98
01:14:02 HN3 Jason Bishop was deployed October 98 to about February 2006 and you refer to him at paragraph 74 on page 13 in your statement. C could could
01:14:13 page 13 in your statement. C could could you just help us with how you knew HN3 Jason Bishop compared to how you know or knew Jim Boiling because the description you give of your interaction with Jim
01:14:25 you give of your interaction with Jim Boiling was essentially to use your words that he became a mate of yours but c could you just contrast that with HN3 Jason Bishop please?
01:14:36 Jason Bishop please? Uh I think I just met Jason uh when he was um in the RTS office uh and possibly around socially around that time for other activist swings or parties around
01:14:47 other activist swings or parties around the RTS house. Um yeah, I mean I as my statement says I moved I moved the Mclly London Green Peace office out of my flat to the RTS
01:14:59 Peace office out of my flat to the RTS space and and that was where I used to see Jason regularly. Yeah. Well, not regularly. Whenever I whenever I used to visit, which was quite ad hoc at that point, but Jason
01:15:11 quite ad hoc at that point, but Jason pretty much was always there. Okay. Now, we know that HN3 Jason Bishop was arrested on the 1st of May 2000 with a van full of manure and seeds and
01:15:23 with a van full of manure and seeds and he was on route to the RTS uh guerilla [clears throat] gardening event. Could you just help us with your knowledge of uh HN3
01:15:36 of uh HN3 Jason Bishop's activities that day? What could you help us? He wanted to borrow my van and he said he's going to do an action with it. I said, "You can borrow my van. I don't need to know what you're doing with it."
01:15:47 need to know what you're doing with it." Do you know why out of everyone he chose you? Why was he asking you to um No idea. He knew I had a van. Uh I mean I used to arrive at the RTS outside my push bike or my van. Uh, possibly
01:16:01 my push bike or my van. Uh, possibly Jim Boiling had suggested it cuz he's asked to use my van before. How many occasions did Jim Boing use your van or asked to use your van? Twice maybe.
01:16:12 Twice maybe. About twice. And then this was this the one and only occasion that HN3 Jason Bishop asked to use your van. Correct.
01:16:21 Correct. When did you discover what had happened to him? He was arrested. When did you find that out? I can't remember actually. Might have been the next day. Um I'm not sure.
01:16:36 I'm going to ask you about the return of your van which you cover at paragraph 53 of your statements and it is on page 11
01:16:47 of your statements and it is on page 11 please.
01:16:53 And so you refer to uh the uh van being eventually returned and can you just help us with the condition that the van was returned in
01:17:05 condition that the van was returned in and why that was unusual please? Um
01:17:11 Um well given it the once over it just looked okay. I just I just packed my kit in it. Um, loaded it up with lights and then drove off to Hampshire cuz only when I was driving down the motorway, they just felt odd and a bit weird.
01:17:23 they just felt odd and a bit weird. Um, [cough] just [clears throat] as it is as in the statement, the wheel nuts were fairly loose.
01:17:31 And in terms of the um wheel nuts um being loosened, what looking back, what what do you think happened in relation to that, please? What's [snorts]
01:17:42 to that, please? What's [snorts] I don't know. It only been in police in the police pound that whole time. I I was I was keen to get it out sooner than I believe I I it didn't get returned immediately. Uh and I was getting quite
01:17:55 immediately. Uh and I was getting quite anxious because I needed it to go to work with. Now you say further down in paragraph 53, the vehicle was in a very good condition when lent to H3. It is possible the wheels were loosened during its time in the Met Police pound. The
01:18:08 its time in the Met Police pound. The experience left me distressed as I thought I was not going to be able to turn up for my first big event with the new lighting uh company. And again look looking back
01:18:21 company. And again look looking back with your knowledge now that HM3 Jason Bishop uh was an undercover officer. What was your view about the condition of the van when it was returned to you? What are your
01:18:32 was returned to you? What are your thoughts about that please? Uh my thoughts were I mean I I I came aware of Jason much later um being an UCO than than to Jim. Um
01:18:45 UCO than than to Jim. Um so um
01:18:48 so um yeah I think it was only probably three or four years ago I realized uh I I just likened it to you know the the burglary and
01:18:58 and it was a very well-maintained Mercedes panel van. It's not it's not usual for considerable amount of the wheel nuts to be loose all at the same time.
01:19:09 be loose all at the same time. So I propose to move to a new topic. So I don't know whether that is a a convenient moment to have our mid after certainly [cough and clears throat] it would be um
01:19:20 would be um 10 minutes or quarter an hour 10 minutes. We'll break for 10 minutes. All right.
01:37:55 Mr. Ramble, I'm going to ask please if um Thank you. the good Easter hunt sabotur case statement that GRDU were a signary to
01:38:06 statement that GRDU were a signary to could be brought up on screen because I'm going to ask you about what is set out in a particular paragraph. It is uh paragraph 24. So I wonder if we can just turn over the page please.
01:38:18 turn over the page please. So here
01:38:20 So here this is what it states. Additionally we are directed to the strategy for DC James
01:38:27 James uh Thompson. um HN16 which records paragraph 2.4 for the Jim Boiling HN14. And so this is what it sets out as a
01:38:38 And so this is what it sets out as a it's a quote from Jim Boiling's target strategy document that Jim Boiling was originally earmarked for long-term deployment in
01:38:50 earmarked for long-term deployment in the ALF and he has provided first rate intelligence on violent hunt saboturs based in East London and Essex and
01:39:02 based in East London and Essex and indeed valuable assistance to oper Operation Gant, an SO13 investigation into a series of crude ALF incenduries
01:39:14 into a series of crude ALF incenduries in East London. Okay, so this is a quote from a strategy document that describes Jim Boing as having uh provided first rate intelligence in relation to
01:39:27 rate intelligence in relation to assisting operation Gant. Now before the break you indicated that uh that there was no connection between hunt saboturs that you came in contact with and the
01:39:38 that you came in contact with and the ALF but I wonder if you can help us specifically in relation to what is described as operation gant. Was there ever any discussion or were you privy to
01:39:50 ever any discussion or were you privy to any discussion in the hunt sabotur groups that you were involved with in relation to the use of or planned use of incendurary devices in East London? Does
01:40:03 incendurary devices in East London? Does that ring any bells? Was there discussion about this to explain why uh Jim Boings referred to as having provided valuable assistance in relation to this? Can you shed any light on it?
01:40:14 to this? Can you shed any light on it? Absolutely none. What discussion, if at all, was there about any type of incendary devices? None whatsoever.
01:40:32 And if there were discussions about uh sending um incendiary devices to uh another uh group, would you necessarily
01:40:43 another uh group, would you necessarily have been privy to that or or or not? Can you help us with that? Would you have expected to be part of that discussion? Uh well, I don't know if I'm supposed to be privy to it. I'm completely unaware
01:40:54 be privy to it. I'm completely unaware of it.
01:40:55 of it. Thank you. Let's turn then to the 18th of June 1999,
01:41:01 1999, please. An event described as J18 Carnival Against Capitalism. I'd like to um ask for your response to some of the things that Jim Boing has set out in his
01:41:14 things that Jim Boing has set out in his witness statement. And I wonder if we can take the current document down and bring back HM14 statement page 153, please.
01:41:26 please. Gardi, this is the part of uh Boiling's statement where he um deals with the organization of the carnival against
01:41:37 organization of the carnival against capitalism on the 18th of June 1999. He begins this section of his statement by saying, I was involved in organizing the carnival against capitalism
01:41:50 the carnival against capitalism on the 18th of June 1999. I was part of the central organizing group which was made up of less than 10 people. Okay. Now relation to that being part of the
01:42:01 Now relation to that being part of the central organizing group made up of 10 people. Were you involved in that particular group yourself? I don't recognize a description of that group as the group that I was involved
01:42:13 group as the group that I was involved in. No.
01:42:14 in. No. Okay. He he says next I attended several meetings at which the event was planned and organized. Could you help us with how many meetings you attended uh that
01:42:26 how many meetings you attended uh that had uh relevance to the planning of this event, please? There was one meeting around my flat regarding vehicles. I'm going to come back to that. So, one
01:42:38 I'm going to come back to that. So, one one meeting at your flat regarding vehicles.
01:42:42 vehicles. Paragraph 378 he says, "I cannot remember how many others attended these meetings. I have said above that the main organizing group comprised less than 10 people but others may have attended meetings a and then it's this
01:42:55 attended meetings a and then it's this that I really would like your response to. He says my contribution at these meetings would be to walk a tight line between playing an active
01:43:07 tight line between playing an active role and supporting the proposals whilst not suggesting or proposing any specific action. What's your reaction to reading
01:43:19 action. What's your reaction to reading Jim Boing setting out here in this sentence that uh he uh would not suggest or propose any specific actions. Is that accurate?
01:43:29 accurate? No, it's completely contradicts the only meeting I had with Jim regarding that action. Well, let us let us turn to that that meeting and what you have just
01:43:40 meeting and what you have just described. And I wonder if we could please go back to GD's witness statement uh because you have set this out from page 16, paragraph 86, please.
01:43:53 I want to ask you about the detail here because you say in early June 1999, Jim Sutton approached me and asked if there could be an important meeting at my
01:44:06 could be an important meeting at my Islington flat. Now, just pausing there. Were you surprised when Jim Boiling approached you to have an important meeting at your flat?
01:44:18 meeting at your flat? No.
01:44:18 No. Why were you not surprised? Uh I was I was very active in many campaigns at the time. Now you go on and say that only four activists were present. Me, Jim, and two
01:44:30 activists were present. Me, Jim, and two others. It was the first time I had met the fourth person. Jim asked if we were all prepared to drive vehicles for the approaching carnival against capitalism in the city of London.
01:44:42 in the city of London. Uh once we agreed, Jim shared his plan uh with us. Now just to be clear before that meeting, did you have any inkling
01:44:53 that meeting, did you have any inkling about the plan that Jim shared with you? No. [snorts] Now, it goes on to say, "The plan was for each of us to drive a car to the city of London, crash into
01:45:04 car to the city of London, crash into each other, and leave the vehicles locked. The intention was to blockade the road for the purposes of a contained street party." The plan was entirely Jim's
01:45:16 Jim's idea. No one else in the meeting had any detail uh to add. Now when you um attended uh this meeting
01:45:27 Now when you um attended uh this meeting and he outlined uh the uh idea, did you form an impression as to how much planning he had put into it?
01:45:40 Um well I I knew Jim and definitely one of the people in the in that meeting were involved with reclaim the streets. So yes,
01:45:53 yes, but in terms of the idea, that's right, is it that it was entirely his idea and that no one else in the meeting had any detail to add? That's my recollection.
01:46:04 That's my recollection. All right. You then set out after discussing the plan, Jim invited us all to go for a drive. Now just pausing there. Is this immediately after that meeting or is it on another occasion?
01:46:16 meeting or is it on another occasion? Can you recall? It was the same meeting. We had the meeting around my flat. And then we got in a vehicle and we drove the western route, the eastern route, and then the proposed
01:46:28 and then the proposed parking spots in South London. And then afterwards, you know, we were kind of encouraged to go and put on a high viz and walk the routes regularly, but with baseball caps on.
01:46:41 regularly, but with baseball caps on. Who encouraged you to put on high vis and to walk the route regularly to familiarize yourself with them? Jim.
01:46:52 The next paragraph you say Jim had purchased all four of the cars. Now just pausing there. How do you know that he had purchased four cars?
01:47:03 had purchased four cars? That's what he stated. Uh you then say Jim also purchased four pay as you go mobile phones all loaded with enough money to use just on the day
01:47:14 with enough money to use just on the day of the action. Again in terms of the purchase of the phones how do you know that he purchased them?
01:47:24 them? Uh cuz he told me he purchased them and he handed one to me. Was this again on the same occasions of the meeting that the drive tests run and then um the the
01:47:35 the drive tests run and then um the the per the handing out of the phones? Was this all on the same day or was this a subsequent day or difficult to remember at this instance? I don't recall when I was given the phone. It may or may not have been at that meeting.
01:47:47 that meeting. Okay.
01:47:49 Okay. Possibly not. Yeah, I can't remember. Now, you refer to the significance of the amount of money because you you state at the end of this paragraph that you believe he spent £1,200.
01:48:01 you believe he spent £1,200. Can you help us with how you became aware of a particular sum? Is this something that Jim Boing said or is it something that you assumed? I I recollect him saying he bought some the cars off of Loot for like 200 230 quid
01:48:14 cars off of Loot for like 200 230 quid and then the the phones were like package phones that he' bought with so many minutes for prepaid.
01:48:23 prepaid. Now moving to paragraph 89. You describe here that the night before the action to prevent any police tales the following morning we all stayed in unknown
01:48:35 morning we all stayed in unknown locations that Jim had arranged. And again, how do you know it was Jim Boiling who had arranged these locations for each of you to stay?
01:48:49 for each of you to stay? [clears throat] We'd been asked to try and find somewhere neutral that we could stay the night before. I'd asked around some friends. I didn't find anywhere suitable. I said to Jim, "I don't think
01:49:01 suitable. I said to Jim, "I don't think I'm going to be able to find anywhere." And he said, "Don't worry, it's taken care of."
01:49:08 Now, in the next paragraph, paragraph 90, uh you outline here that um Jim arranged the purchase of the cars and where to collect them from. And you say,
01:49:21 where to collect them from. And you say, "I'm not sure if they were all collected in one place or not. Having collected the car, I'm not sure if I drove it to the secret stayover or if we all met somewhere early the next day. I remember driving to the agreed car park when it
01:49:34 driving to the agreed car park when it was when it first opened and parked the car ready for later in the day. So this agreed car park who who told you to meet there?
01:49:44 there? Um we we were in different car parks. So, it was just the two cars that uh involved in uh the east or west side of the action and and the other two went to a different location, but they were they
01:49:56 a different location, but they were they were all areas that we wed on the day of the meeting around my flat.
01:50:04 I'm going to move to the day itself on in paragraph 92, you describe what happened. And on the day of the action, we received a call that the protest had
01:50:15 we received a call that the protest had left Liverpool Street station and the larger mass were approaching Upper 10th Street. Calls were made to mobile phones provided by Jim. And it goes on, "This
01:50:26 provided by Jim. And it goes on, "This was our cue to leave the car parks and me and the other activists headed over Soduk Bridge and onto Upper 10th Street. I was following the other car which had stopped across one side of the road and I drove into the rear of the other
01:50:38 I drove into the rear of the other vehicle. Uh, and then this. I managed to get the steering locking gauge, but I could see police running towards us. I tried and failed to lock my car, so I ran to avoid arrest. And then this. Jim
01:50:51 ran to avoid arrest. And then this. Jim and another activist drove over London Bridge and blocked the other end of Upper 10 Street. Now, did you see this or is that something that you're aware of was part of the plan? I.e. Jim
01:51:04 of was part of the plan? I.e. Jim driving one of the cars. That was the plan. Did did you see him at all?
01:51:09 at all? No, I was at the other end of Upper 10th Street.
01:51:11 Street. And so is this correct that after you crash the car that you're in, one of the things you do is try to lock it, but then the police are approaching you and you run run off before
01:51:23 you run run off before The idea was to make it as difficult as possible for the vehicles to be moved to ensure a uh a controlled space for the street party, a temporary autonomous
01:51:35 the street party, a temporary autonomous zone.
01:51:37 zone. Now, in terms of your involvement in what you've just described, at paragraph 96, you say, "I most definitely would not have been involved
01:51:48 definitely would not have been involved with the driving the cars on June the 18th, 1999 if Jim had not approached me and provided everything needed for the day. I wasn't really involved in RTS at
01:51:59 day. I wasn't really involved in RTS at that time. I only attended two meetings and both were after 1999.
01:52:08 And so is this similar in some respects to what you described earlier in your evidence about this plan to disrupt GM Crocs in Ireland that this is not
01:52:21 Crocs in Ireland that this is not something that you would have done had Jim Boing not approached you? Uh, absolutely. I was approached I was approached to do the job. What what didn't come from my mind.
01:52:35 didn't come from my mind. Now I'm going to ask if we can play some footage and this is we'll play the footage. It's referred to in Jim Boiling statement, but let's play the footage please.
01:53:02 What's coming? No, this is part of the uh
01:53:28 [screaming]
01:53:44 Okay, now I Looking at that video um taken from the Guardian video 1999 um does that bring back memories of your involvement on
01:53:55 back memories of your involvement on that day of J18? Yes.
01:53:59 Yes. I'm going to refer now please to um HN14's witness statement again specifically in relation to that video. I wonder if we could please turn up
01:54:10 I wonder if we could please turn up paragraph 381 on page 154. So here in Jim Boiling's statement, he's referring to the video clip that we've
01:54:21 referring to the video clip that we've just seen. And he says, "I've been referred to." And the video clip, this is a video clip with the following description. Footage from 1999's
01:54:32 description. Footage from 1999's Carnival Against Global Capitalism in the City of London shows a car alleged to belong to undercover policeman Jim Boing being used to prevent police from reaching the protest. 42 people were
01:54:43 reaching the protest. 42 people were injured. 1 million pounds worth of damage was done when the protest turned violent. The Met said it lost control due to a lack of police information on the protesters plans. And so what I just
01:54:55 the protesters plans. And so what I just read out that was the captions that we saw uh in the footage in the uh clip that was just played. That's right, isn't it?
01:55:04 isn't it? Correct. He then says, "My specific role on the day was to drive one of the vehicles that was to be used to block the traffic on the approach to the futures exchange was which was the
01:55:15 futures exchange was which was the target for the day." And he says the vehicles were purchased for £250 or less from RTS funds. I stopped my vehicle alongside another driven by privacy on
01:55:26 alongside another driven by privacy on the morning of the event and then ran the 100 meters to the venue to join the other organizers. it's not part of the plan to seek to recover uh the vehicle. And then at paragraph 381.2, he says, "I
01:55:39 And then at paragraph 381.2, he says, "I did park the car in the location that can be seen in the video uh clip." Now, I just want to ask you what he says next in his witness statement of paragraph
01:55:51 in his witness statement of paragraph 381.4.
01:55:53 381.4. He says, "I reported a great amount of detail of this event to SDS managers both before and after the event. On this
01:56:04 both before and after the event. On this occasion, I remember going into the office and writing out in detail all of the information I had on this target for the day, the manner in which it would be carried out, hire vehicles and sound
01:56:17 carried out, hire vehicles and sound systems, all the mobile phone numbers for the RTS organizers used on the day." And then he says this, "And the names of all the activists I knew would be
01:56:28 all the activists I knew would be involved on the day." Now, at the time of this action, would you um have reached that stage in your relationship with Jim Boing at the time that you were
01:56:40 with Jim Boing at the time that you were mates?
01:56:41 mates? Yep.
01:56:41 Yep. And so there would have been no question that he would not have known your name. Is that right? Absolutely. Okay.
01:56:49 And then he says, "I presume this is not in my witness pack because the SDS only kept the sanitized version of intelligence reports." And just to be clear, um,
01:57:00 clear, um, no, uh, report in relation to your involvement by name um, has ever been provided to you in relation to your involvement in crashing the cars as we
01:57:12 involvement in crashing the cars as we saw in the video clip. Okay.
01:57:17 I am going to take you now to a document that HN14 Jim Boing did provide uh his debrief document and I wonder if sir it's at your tab B3 wonder if we can put
01:57:30 it's at your tab B3 wonder if we can put up on screen MPS and it's 302210 please.
01:57:40 So Jim Boing has confirmed in his statement that this report is based on information that he provided and I would like to ask you about the accuracy of
01:57:54 like to ask you about the accuracy of what is set out here and how uh correct it is um in its description of uh the involvement of Jim Boiling and also others on the day. Now if we look at the
01:58:07 others on the day. Now if we look at the top of the document we can see that it the date of the report itself is the 21st of June 1999. So just a few days later it's described as debrief stop the
01:58:19 later it's described as debrief stop the city June the 18th. Again we can see uh his code name psycho dream. Now [clears throat] the first thing that he states in this debrief document is that the organizers of the above events are
01:58:31 the organizers of the above events are extremely pleased at the outcome of day's activities. Their objective was to close down the city and they felt they achieved this. Now just in relation to
01:58:42 achieved this. Now just in relation to that
01:58:45 that would you agree that that reflected the mood of activists on the day um those um who were organizing events on the day uh that uh there was a feeling of being
01:58:58 that uh there was a feeling of being extremely pleased at the result of what happened.
01:59:01 happened. Um, I can't look at it from a perspective of an organizer. Um, but I can only look at it as a perspective of someone that had a really good day that day and enjoyed a good party,
01:59:13 day and enjoyed a good party, a jolly good party. But in terms of the objective to close down the city of London, is that something you felt had been achieved from your perspective,
01:59:24 been achieved from your perspective, from what you see? Would would that be [clears throat] an accurate description? We claimed the space. Yeah, we claimed the space, had a sound system, had a good time.
01:59:34 He then refers to there being surprised at the lack of police uh and some of the tactics adopted. Is is that something that occurred to you at the time and the suggestion that uh there was a lack of
01:59:46 suggestion that uh there was a lack of police presence? Is it something that you recall or not? No. Well, the first thing I saw when I crashed the car were police. So, um I don't agree with that. No. So from your
01:59:58 don't agree with that. No. So from your I don't I have no idea what the right level of policing is. So from your perspective rather than being a lack of police, you were running uh from them quite early on after you'd crashed the car. Correct. All right.
02:00:10 Correct. All right. The next paragraph he says, however, much of what occurred was not planned but was as a result of a spontaneous response from sections of the crowd to
02:00:21 response from sections of the crowd to perceived weaknesses in police lines. Opportunities arose. goating jeering by city workers and readily identifiable targets i.e. McDonald's. Now again this
02:00:32 targets i.e. McDonald's. Now again this is from your perspective but also from your discussions with others about uh the events that day. To what extent did you feel apart from the incident where the cars were crashed that what was
02:00:44 the cars were crashed that what was happening that day uh that it was spontaneous and unplanned. Um
02:00:52 Um I I could agree with most of that. Yeah, sure. Um, some of the things like the McDonald's incident as it had already happened by the time the cars had been crashed on the road. Uh, so that had
02:01:04 crashed on the road. Uh, so that had happened long before I'd finished my mission as it were. Um, did you see what happened at that particular McDonald's or No. No.
02:01:13 No. No. Are you are you aware from what people have described of what happened or Yeah, I'm aware of it. Yeah. Can you just I wasn't involved in it and it had already happened. Uh, apart from God and jeering city workers,
02:01:25 jeering city workers, what do you recall of that? I I remember some of that later on. I was I was around uh I'd been there about an hour or so. I went to London Wall. Um, and then there was there was
02:01:37 Um, and then there was there was Yeah, there was there was a bit of jeering and throwing bits out of windows. Um,
02:01:44 but I was mainly there to get my mission out the way and to have a dance. after you crashed the car.
02:01:55 after you crashed the car. Yeah. Yeah, that was the mission. That was complete. How did you spend the rest of that day?
02:02:04 Moving to the next paragraph in this debrief document. So, it's paragraph three now. So, here Jim Boiling states that the day's events began as planned with Liverpool Street uh station as the
02:02:17 Liverpool Street uh station as the initial collection point for the main body of protesters. The original plan was to move off in four different groups identified by different colored masks. Is this something that you recall that
02:02:30 Is this something that you recall that you were involved in? I for example wearing one of these masks. No, not at all. I didn't know about any of that. My my my [clears throat] mission was to take two
02:02:41 [clears throat] mission was to take two cars
02:02:43 cars and crash them, secure the road, leg it, and that that would that was my day. So in terms of any planning regarding masks, you were unaware of that. Absolutely.
02:02:54 Absolutely. The
02:02:54 The I wasn't even at Liverpool Street station.
02:02:56 station. Oh, at any point and the the um
02:03:04 eventual rendevu point at the lift building. Is that something that you were aware of in advance? I didn't even know what the lift building was until the event.
02:03:15 building was until the event. Thank you. Paragraph four, and we're still on page one. He says that the tactic was to block both east and west lanes of Upper 10th Street
02:03:27 and west lanes of Upper 10th Street using the well tried and tested method of a faked car crash. Of course, a reference to what you've just described earlier, but we're just looking at the debrief document that Jim Boing provided
02:03:39 debrief document that Jim Boing provided to his SDS managers. And then it says this, this was only partially successful due to poor coordination among the crash vehicle drivers. Now, this reference
02:03:51 vehicle drivers. Now, this reference here to the poor coordination among the crash vehicle drivers, what's your reaction [cough] to to [clears throat] reading that in this debrief uh report?
02:04:03 reading that in this debrief uh report? Was was there a lack of coordination or the way it's described here? Wonder if I can only talk about two drivers and two cars and and for me personally
02:04:14 two cars and and for me personally one of the highest moments of adrenaline I've ever experienced. Um so it is all a bit of a blur. I remember driving into another car, putting the steering lock
02:04:26 another car, putting the steering lock on, not quite managing to lock the door and leg in it. The next paragraph talks about a higher flat bed lorry arriving transporting
02:04:37 flat bed lorry arriving transporting breeze blocks again. Is this anything? Well, I don't know about it. No.
02:04:45 And in terms of the use to which those breeze blocks were were put, again, that's nothing that you were aware of. All right. If we turn over the page please, you can see that
02:04:59 please, you can see that in paragraph two in this debrief documents, Jim Boing states that throughout this period, the crowd were being goaded by city workers within lift
02:05:11 being goaded by city workers within lift who were on the balcony throwing down photocopied sterling notes, waving charge cards, generally provoking the crowd. That's uh that goating. Does that
02:05:22 crowd. That's uh that goating. Does that ring a bell? No, it wasn't anything. Okay.
02:05:26 Okay. What is it stated next is that bottles and bricks from a nearby churchyard wool were being used as ammunition. Did you see or did you hear any references to this?
02:05:36 this? I don't remember that, mate. There was reference to uh wanted criminal damage and theft uh occurring but people in RTS uh try to stop the
02:05:50 but people in RTS uh try to stop the criminal damage and theft again. Was that something that you ever heard any discussion about? So members of RTS trying to prevent uh any uh theft for example or or criminal damage. Is that
02:06:02 example or or criminal damage. Is that is there anything discussed on that topic? It it would be difficult to say who who is and was a member of RTS. Uh I that isn't my recollection of the early part of the day. No,
02:06:13 part of the day. No, there is a reference further down this page. It's paragraph five which refers to an incident where a female demonstrator required hospital treatment
02:06:24 demonstrator required hospital treatment after being run over by a police vehicle.
02:06:28 vehicle. It just says that it raised the temperature of the crowd and that there were even rumors that she had died. Is is that something that you recall on the day either seeing yourself or hearing discussion about it?
02:06:39 discussion about it? I'd heard about it and as I mentioned earlier, I think that was in the London Wall area and I I went out there to see what was happening. The level of policing
02:06:48 policing was just making me nervous. So, I didn't stay there. And then that was one of the goating moments. There were things being thrown out of windows above and drinking champagne and it was good banter.
02:07:02 Now you describe partying after the car crash incident. At paragraph six on this second page of the debrief, it says, "The incident involving the exit of the sound system lorry requires explanation.
02:07:16 sound system lorry requires explanation. The [snorts] Laurian sound system had been hired and driven by privacy. When it was time to leave, she was not in a fit state to drive. So volunteer was sought, at which point a woman jumped
02:07:27 sought, at which point a woman jumped into the cab, proceeded to drive away. It became apparent that no one knew her and for a while it was thought that she might have stolen the lorry and equipment. This was somewhat assuaged by
02:07:38 equipment. This was somewhat assuaged by the knowledge that one of the DJs was still in the back. Now, in terms of a sound system lorry, were you aware of it on the day? No. Well, I I was aware of the music. I
02:07:49 No. Well, I I was aware of the music. I I wasn't aware about any of this. Okay. And to be clear, after what you've described earlier as crashing the car and then and then running away, did did
02:08:00 and then and then running away, did did you see Jim Boiling at all for the rest of the day? I don't remember seeing him at all. Had there been a plan to meet up with him after the cars aggression?
02:08:11 him after the cars aggression? There's a reference in the next paragraph to um a builder's um uh truck uh being used. Again, in terms of the use or hire of any other vehicles, was
02:08:23 use or hire of any other vehicles, was that something that you were aware of at all or simply your your involvement limited to the crashing of the cars as you've described? Correct.
02:08:32 Correct. Do you recall what is set out in paragraph 8 referring to a plan to close London Bridge again by a similar means
02:08:43 London Bridge again by a similar means crashing cars and uh demonstrators? [clears throat] No. Okay. Um a group from Manchester absailing down Tower Bridge again. Is
02:08:54 absailing down Tower Bridge again. Is that something you you saw or? Uh I didn't see it. I wasn't aware of it.
02:08:59 it. Okay.
02:09:04 Now, it's a similar question to the one I asked you about putting an undercover officer in hunt sabotur groups and the suggestion that
02:09:16 sabotur groups and the suggestion that there was some justification for that. If it was if someone was were to make this point that considering what happened on that day uh that there was
02:09:27 happened on that day uh that there was justification for putting Jim Boiling uh into a group involved in J18. What would your reaction be to that if someone says well look what happened? It's justified
02:09:39 well look what happened? It's justified it was justified putting Jim Boiling uh into groups who were involved in that day. What would your reaction to that be? Uh I I would almost I try not to laugh really because you know Jim Boning
02:09:51 laugh really because you know Jim Boning essentially organized the majority of what happened that day and was in the [clears throat] was in the whole the RTS group that planned what happened and in
02:10:02 group that planned what happened and in the in the smaller group with the vehicles outside. I don't think he was integral to the whole J18.
02:10:15 I'd like to ask you just a few more questions and it's relating to the impact of uh undercover policing. You helpfully set this out in your statement
02:10:26 helpfully set this out in your statement on page 18. I wonder if we could just go to that please. It's paragraph beginning paragraph 99. Thank you.
02:10:36 And this is relating to your uh discovery, your realization uh that that you had come into contact
02:10:48 uh that that you had come into contact with undercover officers and you refer here at paragraph 199 99. I remember a discussion with another activist in 2002. Maybe she told me that it was thought
02:11:00 Maybe she told me that it was thought that Jim Boiling was an undercover cop. And you say that you were shocked to hear this. Just going back to that time, that's some time ago now, 2002, that
02:11:11 that's some time ago now, 2002, that that suggestion. Could you just convey how you felt when when this was raised for the first time that this person who had been a mate?
02:11:22 that this person who had been a mate? I didn't I couldn't believe it if I'm honest. I couldn't believe it. Um, but there was there was a you know there was a story that was being explained about
02:11:33 a story that was being explained about it'd gone away and a lot of the addresses I used to didn't work out. So, it it was in the back of my mind for a while as a doubt, but I was
02:11:44 was you know, activists can be quite paranoid. Um uh but you know, we're right to be paranoid.
02:11:54 paranoid. Now, moving forward in time, which you do in your next paragraph, you say, "Until the full story emerged some eight or nine years later in 2010,
02:12:05 some eight or nine years later in 2010, 2011, I didn't really believe it, but the accusation was always on my mind. I did consider whether it could be true." And then you say this, but I kept reassuring myself that Jim usually
02:12:17 reassuring myself that Jim usually approached me about ideas for actions. And I always thought that was because he trusted me. This also made me think that he was a real activist and someone who
02:12:28 he was a real activist and someone who was a true friend and fellow activist.
02:12:36 You then say in paragraph 101 that I would never have placed Jim as a cop.
02:12:46 What made him so convincing to you? Because you set out here that an activist in 2002 raises the possibility that he was an
02:12:58 raises the possibility that he was an undercover officer. The story comes out 2010 and 11. You reassure yourself, well, he was the one who approached me with ideas. What was it about the way he
02:13:09 with ideas. What was it about the way he acted um in your presence that um made you so shocked, made you so surprised and that you would never have placed him as an undercover?
02:13:20 as an undercover? It was just that human connection really, you know, it was just we got on, it was all right. Uh he trusted me, I trusted him. Uh
02:13:31 trusted him. Uh and yeah, it's it's a bit of a shocker really. You say at paragraph 105 and I wonder if we can just go to that please because it's you
02:13:43 just go to that please because it's you say I feel set up in some ways and used. It does [clears throat] bring up trust issues
02:13:51 issues for me.
02:13:51 for me. Yeah.
02:13:52 Yeah. Now
02:13:55 Now you have repeatedly referred to you and Jim Boing at the time trusting each other being friends. Yeah. Being mates. Could you help us how that
02:14:07 Being mates. Could you help us how that has affected you in terms of trusting other people, realizing well that person that you thought was a mate, a trusted friend was an undercover police officer.
02:14:18 friend was an undercover police officer. How how what effect that that has had on you and your interaction with people since realizing it? Uh
02:14:31 it's it's a difficult one to put into words if I'm honest, but um I think anybody that's, you know, going to listen to this session uh can probably make their own
02:14:44 session uh can probably make their own words up for it. Uh I I just feel, you know, cheated in a lot of ways. I I appreciate I've asked you a number of questions uh this afternoon. Is there
02:14:58 of questions uh this afternoon. Is there anything else that you would like to tell the inquiry about what you have been through? Anything you would like to add to what
02:15:09 add to what No, I'm okay. Thank you. So, I understand that there are no rule 10, but that there will be uh some questions in re-examination. Yes.
02:15:21 Yes. Thank you, sir. I have um four brief topics just to to elaborate on. Um [clears throat] G, you asked uh questions about uh evidence in your witness statement that
02:15:34 evidence in your witness statement that related to uh Jim Boiling making jokes with you about other activists and um on reflection was there any risk of this showing division within the
02:15:46 of this showing division within the groups that you were involved in? Potentially. potentially. I mean, that's one of those it's like every every workplace has its little jokes about people, but it's also, you know, can be
02:15:58 people, but it's also, you know, can be weaponized. And in terms of HN14's role in in the making these jokes and these comments, you able to elaborate on what what his
02:16:09 you able to elaborate on what what his approach was to how active was he in in those discussions?
02:16:16 [sighs] It's quite a while ago now, but you know, he's just taking a piss really. Um, second topic, you were asked about the um Gen action which took place in
02:16:27 the um Gen action which took place in Ireland, but had been the initial planning in in the United Kingdom. Um, and you were taken to um HN14's witness statement where he he said that there would be no option uh but to
02:16:40 there would be no option uh but to participate uh or risk getting exposed. Um, how difficult would it have been for uh Jim Boiling to have um got out of an
02:16:51 uh Jim Boiling to have um got out of an action in Ireland without uh it seeming unusual in any way. It would have been quite easy. Um it it wasn't supposed to be
02:17:04 it it wasn't supposed to be um the the the idea was that uh the the team from the UK were kind of advisory and that uh the local um Dublin group
02:17:15 and that uh the local um Dublin group were would carry out the action. That didn't happen. Uh and in the end we ended up, you know, the van that we got it had no seats in the back. It was small. There was only
02:17:27 the back. It was small. There was only two seats up front. Uh it it was quite cramped having six people in there. It was, you know, it would have been easier for logistically to have less people in
02:17:39 for logistically to have less people in it.
02:17:41 it. Um and then in relation to the um Mcliden support campaign, you you were asked about um the uh going to
02:17:53 asked about um the uh going to Glastonbury and that you said that that Agent 14 had been there and and had been privy to discussions. Um [clears throat] and you were talking about events in the summer of 1997 and and you said gave
02:18:06 summer of 1997 and and you said gave evidence that the trial had finished at that point. Just to remind you that obviously the high court trial would have finished but there was uh then later an onward would appeal to the
02:18:17 later an onward would appeal to the court of appeal first and then to the European Court of Human Rights and so that period would have been between the high court finishing and the court of appeal appeal. Correct. I just want to ask you about a
02:18:29 Correct. I just want to ask you about a couple a few topics and whether you were aware of them, whether there would have been discussion about these topics within the liable support campaign and whether you think HN14 would have been
02:18:41 whether you think HN14 would have been privy to this sort of information. So the the the first is uh would there have been uh discussion of of the appeal and the the campaign around it?
02:18:54 I can't really recollect to be honest. um at the time if if you're talking about the Glastonbury moment, I think it would have been too soon for appeal
02:19:05 have been too soon for appeal conversations that I that I was involved in.
02:19:08 in. Okay.
02:19:09 Okay. Um in term in terms of the ongoing campaign beyond Glastonbury in that that period of time, uh is it likely that there would would have been discussions
02:19:20 there would would have been discussions about the appeal and the campaign? Yeah, potentially. Yeah. And and are those discussions that the HN14 is likely to have become aware of?
02:19:31 become aware of? I think I think possibly socially between um other members of McLemore and MC Spotlight and RTS. Yes. Um and in terms of contact with Helen
02:19:43 Um and in terms of contact with Helen Steel and and Dave Morris, were they in touch with you personally during that period?
02:19:48 period? Yeah. Yeah. And were they I think Helen went away for a little while, but Yeah. And were they in touch um with the uh McLeel campaign more broadly?
02:19:59 McLeel campaign more broadly? Uh yeah. Well, we had a we still had our weekly meetings which moved into London Greenpeace meetings. So yes. Um and at those weekly meetings um were Helen Steel and Dave Morris in attendance?
02:20:10 attendance? Not always, but on occasion, but yeah, probably more Dave than Helen. Um and in terms of publicity around the McLeel campaign rather than um other
02:20:24 McLeel campaign rather than um other aspects of of the case, was that something that was discussed amongst the group?
02:20:31 group? Yes.
02:20:33 Yes. Um and then final topic in relation could if I could have please uh GD's own witness statement paragraph 34 on the screen. able
02:20:53 to just expand paragraph 34. Very cool. Um so you you were asked about this um this paragraph and um an incident where
02:21:06 this paragraph and um an incident where you say here shotguns have been fired over my head only meters away from my face. This happened in front of Harfordshire Police with no action taken by police against the shooters. Um it
02:21:18 by police against the shooters. Um it was suggested to you that um incidents like this might have provided a justification for the use of undercover officers. Um having seen that state that
02:21:30 officers. Um having seen that state that paragraph in full, are there any alternatives to the use of undercover officers?
02:21:35 officers? No, I think that probably on duty police officers could have done the job. Thank you. which should have done the job.
02:21:41 job. And final question, is there anything else that you wish to say to the inquiry that you feel has not been covered yet? Good. Thank you. Done. So, unless you have further questions, I
02:21:52 So, unless you have further questions, I finished.
02:21:53 finished. Thank you for your assistance. Um, and thank you in particular for coming here and giving oral evidence under oath in a public forum, albeit one in which your identity has been rightly protected.
02:22:04 identity has been rightly protected. Grateful to you. Thank you.