The afternoon session concludes the evidence of former SDS undercover officer HN18 'Robert Harrison' (Robert Hastings). Counsel examines the collapse of SDS welfare arrangements around the unit's closure, his mental breakdown before the 2007 G8 summit in Germany, and a 'hear no evil, see no evil' culture, before focusing at length on his deception of the woman known as 'Maya' - his continued use of his cover identity to re-contact her from 2008 to 2016, sexually explicit Skype messaging, a disputed 2015 sexual encounter, and the lasting harm caused to Maya and to Atif Chowry.
00:13:55 Good afternoon everybody. Uh this afternoon's proceedings will be uh transmitted after the usual 10-minute delay, apart from a short uh private session which will take place at the end
00:14:06 session which will take place at the end of this afternoon's proceedings. Uh those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. Since the event that they're reporting, they may not be used for
00:14:18 reporting, they may not be used for recording or photography. Yes, Miss Hemingway. Thank you, sir. Mr. Hastings, if I can refer you to your own witness statement, please.
00:14:31 own witness statement, please. UCPI 3557, page 92,
00:14:37 page 92, paragraph 187 to 190.
00:14:47 Okay, thank you. Um, you state there that you don't recall whether you witnessed any specific instances of public disorder, participated in any public disorder, or
00:14:59 participated in any public disorder, or witnessed any specific instances of violence against property? Do you stand by that uh account?
00:15:11 uh account? I can't recall any specific instances of public disorder. Certainly I was involved at demonstrations where police officers were present um terms of public disorder didn't riot
00:15:22 terms of public disorder didn't riot certainly during my time as a SDS officer.
00:15:26 officer. I'm sorry. Sorry. So the answer would be I stand by the statement. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Um, can I take it that if you had have seen instances of that type of behavior,
00:15:39 seen instances of that type of behavior, you would have reported and and also recalled it? Yes.
00:15:43 Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Can I refer to MPS0526935
00:15:52 page 41? Again, this is going back to your Reaper authorizations B-54, please. Bundle three.
00:16:04 Page 41. This is the cancellation of your authority
00:16:11 authority the operation signed by Commander White and that's dated the 21st of December 2007.
00:16:20 2007. And do you recognize that as the date that you effectively stopped operating through the SDS? I think this is probably after the date that I'd finished. I think this is more of a a bureaucratic end date rather than
00:16:34 of a a bureaucratic end date rather than I think my end date would have been possibly earlier. The actual cease of the operation in terms of activity. Okay. And when would that have been? Was that more towards the end of November,
00:16:45 that more towards the end of November, beginning of December? Possibly.
00:16:48 Possibly. In terms of welfare, can I ask you uh it's primarily in relation to your evidence that you set out at paragraph 256 of your witness statement onwards.
00:16:59 256 of your witness statement onwards. We don't need to bring it up. Um, but essentially what you set out is that there was a requirement to see Dr. Palmer once every six months. There were no formal arrangements to follow to
00:17:11 no formal arrangements to follow to monitor welfare. Is is that fair? I believe that's correct. And did it happen six monthly that you saw Dr. Palmer? I believe there may be a record to that. I may have attended five sessions with
00:17:22 I may have attended five sessions with Dr. Palmer. But again, I would ask the question, is there the archive of material to support that? But in terms of your recollection, it wasn't a strict six-monthly event.
00:17:33 six-monthly event. No.
00:17:35 No. And in terms of what you were told about the purpose of meeting with Dr. Palmer, was it a private space for UCOs to confidentially disclose things to a psychiatrist that they may need help
00:17:46 psychiatrist that they may need help with or did you have a different impression? I think that the Met would argue that that was the purpose behind those meetings. I wonder whether to go to the
00:17:57 meetings. I wonder whether to go to the question that you're asking whether that was how officers who'd have been in SDS would have perceived that particularly given the the nature of the way the unit closed and perhaps the lack of trust that I perceived existed between SDS
00:18:09 that I perceived existed between SDS officers and the then management. So certainly by the end of the SDS by the end of its existence there certainly wasn't a trust between management and the UCOs. Is that right?
00:18:22 management and the UCOs. Is that right? My view on it would be that it had fundamentally broken down. Was it your perception that you could confide in the psychiatrist before that
00:18:33 confide in the psychiatrist before that end period? I think and I may have mentioned this to you in evidence previously that perhaps the general perception was that you would go and speak to Dr. Palmer, but I suspect there was always a wear
00:18:45 suspect there was always a wear awareness that you would be unsure as to what Dr. Palmer may then go and report back to the back office. So was it your sense that certainly you wouldn't ever reveal anything about any
00:18:56 wouldn't ever reveal anything about any relationships uh whilst under undercover
00:19:04 the record that we have in relation to your meetings with Dr. Palmer I set out at paragraph 302 of your own witness statement. Um, you say you only recall the last
00:19:17 Um, you say you only recall the last appointment, but you don't really recall the details of it.
00:19:29 And you go on to say that you don't re you don't recall being offered any real meaningful advice or ongoing support by the SDS or MPS following withdrawal or
00:19:41 the SDS or MPS following withdrawal or thereafter. That's correct. And so what was your uh feeling about that? Did you did you feel as though you were missing out on something that you actually needed as a a UCO? I think the
00:19:54 actually needed as a a UCO? I think the imp again much of this will be told with the benefit of hindsight experience. Certainly at the time the impression I had was that we the unit had been ended
00:20:05 had was that we the unit had been ended very short in very short order very short time. Previously, for example, there would have been I think believe there would have been the expectation that in terms of withdrawing from the field, an officer might have up to six months. So, there'd be a slow and
00:20:16 months. So, there'd be a slow and gradual process of withdrawal from being around um your the groups of individuals that you're concentrating on. During that time, you would then have a slow period of withdrawal. It would then come to an end. You then go back. Uh there'd
00:20:29 to an end. You then go back. Uh there'd be a period of up to six months, I believe, was the standard to be off, which would allow you time to go back, take time off, obviously change your appearance, probably and become normal, I suppose, again, or return in some way
00:20:41 I suppose, again, or return in some way to who you thought
00:20:46 you might have been before, but that never happened. Um, certainly in my in my my experience. Is that because towards the end of your
00:20:57 Is that because towards the end of your deployment, it was truncated and it was a little bit confused as to what was happening around uh the closure of the SDS. From a field officer perspective, I would say that and I've referred to this
00:21:09 would say that and I've referred to this earlier in my evidence that it was fairly clear that the back office I viewed them as hostile uh to um to the field officers and certainly some of the behaviors that I experienced. It was
00:21:20 behaviors that I experienced. It was fairly clear that we were regarded with some suspicion as I perceived it by the managers at the time.
00:21:31 the managers at the time who came in, you're talking about DCI Flood, is that right? That's correct. And Superintendent McKini. Yeah.
00:21:39 Yeah. Uh were they was there a sense that they were trying to bring in more formalized uh uh processes and uh supervision
00:21:50 uh uh processes and uh supervision uh procedures. I think certainly when they they came in, they were clearly looking to introduce changes. However, again with the benefit of hindsight, I have to question whether ultimately they came in with a view to close down the unit.
00:22:03 with a view to close down the unit. Did you get the sense that they were not content with the current state of affairs within the SDS in terms of the the ethics and and how it was being
00:22:14 the ethics and and how it was being managed? I would take the view that I think they were and again I can't speak to their own interpretation or views but the impression that I certainly had was that they were hostile to every part of
00:22:25 that they were hostile to every part of SDS including the officers themselves. What about other management? I think there was some hostility. Was there from your perspective between HN72? I think it's fair. I think my view on
00:22:37 I think it's fair. I think my view on that would be and clearly there are no notes as far as I'mware for me to support this, but my my interpretation would be that flood came from a fundamentally different background. He'd never been a
00:22:49 different background. He'd never been a special branch officer. Um clearly was a very experienced officer in covert operations but entirely different realm largely the crime realm. I understand again that might be incorrect. um wanted to come in and perhaps
00:23:03 um wanted to come in and perhaps orientate SDS practice by way of um SO10 as it then was. It might have changed practices as he understood them. McKini I had less personal contact with.
00:23:22 We can come on to that in a bit more detail in a moment. um in terms of your
00:23:30 your the support that you received in terms of your mental health in 2007. There's an issue was there that arose in the runup to the G8 summit in Germany.
00:23:44 the runup to the G8 summit in Germany. That's correct. You address this at paragraph at 257 of your witness statement. You say prior to the G8 protest in Germany, you were
00:23:55 the G8 protest in Germany, you were mentally and physically exhausted. Do you want to expand on that a little bit?
00:24:00 bit? I'm just waiting for this to come up.
00:24:08 Sorry. In terms of bringing up that that particular part of your witness statement, 3557,
00:24:16 page 122, please.
00:24:29 Okay.
00:24:33 Um there there you set out that there was in your recollection there was little appetite amongst your target groups no uh no bound uh no borders and state of emergency to attend the G8
00:24:44 state of emergency to attend the G8 summit. at least initially that from my again with my recollection my understanding was that most of my my the groups and individuals that I was associated with when they did eventually set out for
00:24:56 when they did eventually set out for Germany it's very much last minute and had you gone to management saying I don't really want to attend this this event my view on this was that if the purpose of SDS is to have individuals reporting
00:25:10 of SDS is to have individuals reporting on particular groups then the logic is if the groups aren't going to Germany then Why are we sending this officer to go to Germany? Uh you were told that it was important for you to attend and that was 1872
00:25:24 for you to attend and that was 1872 and that you would get time off upon return and you took several weeks off from July 2007 onwards. Um
00:25:34 Um you say you were offered anti-depressants by Dr. Palmer but you declined those. Why was that? I think possibly at the time I would have viewed it as a sign of weakness and that if I had done that I
00:25:47 weakness and that if I had done that I would in some way I would have I would have failed. Do you want to go into any more detail about what the issues were that you were experiencing at the time? In many respects I wish I could describe
00:25:58 In many respects I wish I could describe them to you. I think the way I would describe it is I think I was lost. I think by that stage I had lost a sense of identity as to who I I perhaps was.
00:26:11 to who I I perhaps was. and thought I was
00:26:18 at the time in the run-up to the G8 uh protest. Was there anything else going on in state of emergency in terms of a a a an
00:26:30 a an a a fallout between you and state of emergency as a group? And I'm referring in particular to a a a an event that has been the subject of a witness statement
00:26:41 been the subject of a witness statement by Donald O'Driscoll that I think you've had an opportunity to have a look at last night. Yes. Um so this is the eighth witness statement of Donald and it's signed the 24th of March 2026.
00:26:56 Um it's UCPI 39760.
00:27:10 And essentially at paragraph two of that statement, he talks about a report of an accusation that you had groped a friend of someone active in state of emergency
00:27:22 of someone active in state of emergency group during a party. He notes that it was something you strenuously denied. Do you recall being accused of groping? No.
00:27:33 Um he says at paragraph three that the story was wider than this and essentially there was a plan within the group to ask him directly about this. However, this never happened as he did
00:27:45 However, this never happened as he did not turn up to the meeting. Do you recall any uh uh intention for there to be an intervention around this accusation of groping? No.
00:27:57 No. Do you know the person uh the accuser? I can't know. You don't know who that is? um he exhibits a w an email that was sent from you on the 24th of April 2007
00:28:12 sent from you on the 24th of April 2007 and that set out in the body of the the email it is attached as an exhibit but for the sake of staying on the same document here if we look at the the text of that email
00:28:25 it's essentially an email from you saying I won't be at the meeting tonight the 24th of April 2007 but Not because of perceived anger management problems or an overabundance
00:28:36 management problems or an overabundance of aggression or testosterone exclamation mark. Was that a reference to the accusation of groping? No.
00:28:47 No. Was that a a reason for you not to attend the meeting that night? No. I think if you look at the email, it's self-explanatory in terms of why I've said that I'm not going to the meeting. So, in terms of your reason for
00:28:59 meeting. So, in terms of your reason for not attending the meeting, it's set out there in the the body of the the email that you hadn't had chance to prepare for a presentation you were going to make to the group. Yes.
00:29:10 Yes. Did you in terms of that first sentence of the email recognize that there may be another uh body of thought around that and that
00:29:21 uh body of thought around that and that you're not attending because you're embarrassed about a groping allegation? No.
00:29:27 No. So, what does that first sentence relate to?
00:29:30 to? I don't know. Why would you write about an overabundance of aggression or testosterone? I have no idea. I I can can't think of myself as someone who would be thought of as having an overabundance
00:29:42 of as having an overabundance of testosterone or being particularly aggressive. Um, and you can't think of a reason why you would have put that in an email? No.
00:30:03 Um,
00:30:09 can I refer you please to MPS 007367?
00:30:15 It's behind tab C 113 in bundle five.
00:30:25 I think there are two pages to the document. If I can have them both up, please.
00:30:31 please. Okay. So, there's nothing on page two. Sorry. Um
00:30:40 essentially would you agree that this report
00:30:45 report or be it from 2006 so November 2006 about five months before the groping allegation that you that you deny that it was ever made. I I appreciate that.
00:30:58 it was ever made. I I appreciate that. In the November before, you are reporting on what effectively amounts to um idle gossip about people within the SDS. Would you accept that?
00:31:11 SDS. Would you accept that? No.
00:31:14 No. The paragraph two where it talks about another factor is the increasing sexual tension within the group. that sexual tension within the group is that something that you were keenly
00:31:25 that something that you were keenly aware of such that you felt it necessary to put it into a report. I think looking at this I would have seen this as
00:31:36 seen this as reporting on the current state of the group what the inter relationships were between the individuals who were associated with that organization. So it would have just for me it would
00:31:48 So it would have just for me it would have been the usefulness here which I suppose is what you're driving at is it would go back to NSY and it would give them an opportunity to understand the function of the group and the inter relationship between the individuals and if there was potential there perhaps um
00:32:01 if there was potential there perhaps um for
00:32:03 for well we'll come on to that it's not so much the usefulness of the report it's more about your perception as to what is going on in the group that I want to ask you about. Well, that would certainly be it's a report that stands as at that time contemporaneously
00:32:16 stands as at that time contemporaneously my perceptions to the relation interreationships existed within that group.
00:32:22 group. Would you accept that what you're reporting on is normal interpersonal relationships that you have described as sexual tension? I can only say that I was reporting on my perception and having
00:32:34 reporting on my perception and having observed behaviors and the interaction between individuals and clearly having had some of those individuals speak to me describe their experiences. Were you personally a cause of any
00:32:45 Were you personally a cause of any sexual tension within the group? No.
00:32:48 No. Were you personally a cause of any social division or uh disintegration of relationships within the group? Not that I'm aware of.
00:33:01 Was there any sense of you falling out with members within the state of emergency at this time
00:33:10 this time in the early part of uh 2007? The early part of 2007. Yes. So po post this this is November 2006. In the early part of 2007, in the
00:33:22 2006. In the early part of 2007, in the run-up to the G8 summit, was there any sense that you were falling out or being excluded by members of states of emergency? Not that I recall.
00:33:34 Not that I recall. Would that be a reason for you not to want to go to the G8 summit? No.
00:33:42 No. In reality, were people within no borders in state of emergency always intending to go to the G8 summit? That would not be my perception.
00:34:05 So, was there any other cause for your depression and mental anxiety in the run-up to the G8 summit?
00:34:16 in the run-up to the G8 summit? I think that it would again looking back it was the the nature of the job, just the nature of being an SDS officer, being an undercover officer.
00:34:28 being an undercover officer. You mentioned in your evidence earlier that when you were at the G8 summit, HN118 Sim Wellings
00:34:37 came to you to stage an intervention. I think that was your evidence. Am I right on that? What did you mean by that? I was from my view and I think this is reflected again in the archive that
00:34:50 reflected again in the archive that hopefully is available to you. Um I don't think that I was particularly successful in my terms of my reporting in Germany. Um,
00:34:58 Um, and I'm aware that I likely reported this. They would have been aware of the fact or at least the inspector would have been aware of my state of health, mental state of health before I went to Germany. Um,
00:35:11 Germany. Um, and then Simon and I sat in the middle of the camp and he was just trying to I think keep me grounded and focused and just reach out as a friend at that time.
00:35:28 in terms of any obligation to withdraw your yourself from any uh operation if you didn't feel mentally capable of uh fulfilling your obligations. Did you
00:35:39 fulfilling your obligations. Did you have any sense that you ought to be doing that at that stage? I would have imagined at the time that that would not have occurred to me. I I would have likely have thought now I've got to do this. As I said earlier, um I
00:35:50 got to do this. As I said earlier, um I spoke with the inspector before I left and I suspect more than anything else the reason for me agreeing to go to Germany was based on a sense of personal loyalty to him. In terms of um your own uh duty to
00:36:02 In terms of um your own uh duty to withdraw um MPS 0526923
00:36:08 please behind tab B27. This is the code of conduct which we've had a look at before. Page two
00:36:20 and it's points eight and nine. Do you see the the officer has a duty to the service to his or her colleagues and to him or herself not to undertake or remain operationally
00:36:32 not to undertake or remain operationally committed to an operation which they feel unfitted whether physical, psychological or operational reasons.
00:36:43 Did did were you aware of this? I think we've we've we've established that you were aware of the code of conduct. Well, we've established that I've certainly signed it. I certainly think by the time that this was happening. Um,
00:36:57 by the time that this was happening. Um, no. But what I would say, I'd make the point again that at least one officer was aware what was what was happening to me whilst I was on the unit at that point.
00:37:07 point. And did he give any indication that he was going to uh raise matters with management to get you any further support?
00:37:15 support? Well, he the individual obviously was the inspector that I spoke to. Um the impression HN HN118
00:37:22 HN HN118 the impression I had again at the time was that the most important thing was not my health. It was the fact that we had the G8 upcoming and there was a a pressure to ensure that we had officers
00:37:34 pressure to ensure that we had officers there to report on the events out there. To me, rightly or wrongly, that was the over overriding sense of importance I had. Go to Germany, report, come back and then you and then almost like a a
00:37:45 and then you and then almost like a a reward. You get some time off and then you continued through to the November or December of that year. Yes.
00:37:52 Yes. Okay. And why did you continue then in that role? I was
00:37:56 I was again through a sense of duty to the SDS I wasn't pulled out so I continued as as required
00:38:03 required in terms of winding up under new management um they the new management introduced an event log system didn't they an example of one of your event
00:38:14 they an example of one of your event logs is at MPS 000076143
00:38:19 behind tab B 100 in bundle three and this is from September 2007. And just having a a quick look through
00:38:30 And just having a a quick look through this.
00:38:32 this. If we can have a number of the pages up on screen,
00:38:42 they're not particularly detailed, are they? These event logs. Was the direction that you were supposed to put in more detail about what you were reporting on, who you were with, and where you were at any particular point?
00:38:54 where you were at any particular point? I wouldn't have thought so because that would have been covered necessarily by intelligence reports that we would have um submitted. And as we can see on page two on the left hand side of the screen, um would a
00:39:06 left hand side of the screen, um would a a typical day involve being on duty from about 7:00 in the morning and then off duty sometimes very late and into the following morning.
00:39:17 following morning. Yes.
00:39:19 Yes. and spending that amount of time on duty,
00:39:25 duty, what would you be always in the company of uh other activists or did this also include spending hours on uh digital media?
00:39:36 media? I've included all of that.
00:39:41 In terms of the amount of time spent on digital media, would you say that was hours per day? And by digital media, I mean emailing, blogs, and so forth. Sorry, can you clarify what you're
00:39:52 Sorry, can you clarify what you're asking, please? How many hours per day typically would you spend on digital media? It would vary. And was that always in the course of your operation or uh uh essentially
00:40:06 your operation or uh uh essentially using your your undercover operational identity?
00:40:13 And when you say it varies, what would a typical day look like? It would vary massively from day to day whether it was just emails, replying to emails, covering websites, maintaining
00:40:24 emails, covering websites, maintaining cover.
00:40:26 cover. I can't give you a specific um figure. So, for instance, on the top box here on page two,
00:40:35 page two, we've got you you uh uh begin monitoring emails and telephones at 7:00 in the morning. You're in contact with privacies regarding a border camp at
00:40:48 privacies regarding a border camp at 10:00
00:40:50 10:00 and then you're off duty at the cover home address at 11:00. Not much further detail in terms of anything useful for a supervising officer for instance but would that
00:41:05 officer for instance but would that how much of that time would have been spent on uh monitoring emails blogging and that sort of thing again I can't give you a figure it would it would very much depend the SDS existence there was a report
00:41:18 the SDS existence there was a report commissioned carried out by a
00:57:36 screen please. MPS 0076340
00:57:48 behind tab B123 and bundle four.
00:58:04 This is a performance development review.
00:58:13 Can we go to page three, please? So, sorry. The the um the date of the review being completed was the 17th of October, 2007
00:58:25 the 17th of October, 2007 at the top of the page.
00:58:34 And in do do you recognize these performance development review documents? Have you seen these?
00:58:43 It's quite generic, isn't it? Do do you get sight of those or did you when you were in the SDS? Possibly. Was it signed by me? Because presumably if I'd say I had sight of it that I would have signed the document to say that I would have agreed with it.
00:58:55 say that I would have agreed with it. I don't think that Well, we can have a look towards the end. No,
00:59:01 No, it's completed by uh HN30, your cover officer on the 17th of October 2007. So it may be that you haven't seen you don't recognize these documents. I recognize the document but I can't say
00:59:13 I recognize the document but I can't say obviously. Okay,
00:59:15 Okay, going back to page three then please.
00:59:23 In terms of respect for race and diversity, uh DC Hastings is a good communicator. He shows respect for the opinions, circumstances, and feelings of his colleagues and others. He is polite,
00:59:35 colleagues and others. He is polite, tolerant, thoughtful, and patient when dealing with people, treating them with respect and dignity. Was that a true reflection of your personality at this time towards the end of your operation?
00:59:47 time towards the end of your operation? No.
00:59:49 No. What about problem solving?
00:59:55 Um, sorry. If we go down to resilience, in fact,
01:00:00 in fact, the last six months or so have been unusually busy, particularly over the normally quieter summer months. During this time, DC Hastings has also worked abroad for several weeks at a stretch, working long hours, and under very
01:00:12 working long hours, and under very arduous conditions. Even so, DC Hastings has continued to display his usual cheerfulness and good humor. Was that a true reflection of your character at the
01:00:24 true reflection of your character at the time?
01:00:24 time? No.
01:00:29 So, is this performance development review inaccurate? I haven't signed it to say that I agree with this, which would be normal practice within the NPS. I read this now
01:00:41 practice within the NPS. I read this now and it to me it strikes as being just very very generic and possibly written to a formula.
01:00:50 So of very little value you say yes
01:00:54 yes in terms of mentoring take that down now please
01:01:00 sorry just so I can I'll ask you one further question on that did you have a meeting with HN30 in order for her to complete this form
01:01:11 in order for her to complete this form that's possible but again ordin normal practice within the Met in such a situation would be for something like this to be completed then to be presented to the officer and they would sign to agree the fact of what's
01:01:23 sign to agree the fact of what's contained within the document. Do you recall having a a practice development review uh sorry a a a development review meeting with HN30 around the end of your deployment?
01:01:35 around the end of your deployment? No.
01:01:37 No. Unless again it might have taken place but I can't recall it. And what would a meeting like that entail?
01:01:47 entail? How long do they normally take? I I can't recall. I can only make reference to where I've had such meetings prior to um to special branch. Really?
01:01:57 Really? In terms of mentoring, you say in your witness statement at paragraph 261, you're not aware of a mentoring scheme and we're never provided with a mentor. Is that right? That's correct.
01:02:09 That's correct. Um,
01:02:11 Um, in terms of sexual activity of other UCOs on the SDS at the same time as you, you say at paragraph 277 of your witness statement,
01:02:24 paragraph 277 of your witness statement, it's difficult to believe managers did not have any awareness that officers were potentially engaging in sexual activity in their undercover role. Why
01:02:35 activity in their undercover role. Why do you say that? I think
01:02:40 I think the way I would put this would be this would be this. Within SDS, there was a culture of not speaking about SDS. Within special branch, there was not a culture of speaking about SS. There were things you just simply didn't speak
01:02:51 things you just simply didn't speak about. And
01:02:56 as various revelations have been made as an SDS officer, I certainly myself was unaware of many of these things that they had taken place.
01:03:07 that they had taken place. Um
01:03:09 Um perhaps if I had been then it might have made me seriously reconsider whether I would have joined the SDS or not. But it also begs the question, I think fundamentally
01:03:20 fundamentally that given there was clear knowledge or would appear to or you would have expected there to have been clear knowledge given some of the problems that were being dealt with particularly
01:03:31 that were being dealt with particularly within the legal sphere. I'm thinking I think as an example perhaps will be someone like Helen Steel. I find it hard to understand how with
01:03:42 I find it hard to understand how with these things going on, it would not have been communicated to us and given the length of time that this had obviously been taking place, other mechanisms would not have been put in place to stop
01:03:53 would not have been put in place to stop those problems arising again.
01:03:58 This culture of hear no evil, see no evil, would you would you I think that's describe it like that. I think that that's how I've described it in my understanding. Did that apply in your evidence to the
01:04:12 Did that apply in your evidence to the managers as well as the UCOs themselves? I think I would describe it as an in well necessarily it would have had to have probably existed between both
01:04:24 have probably existed between both groups.
01:04:26 groups. And so for instance, when HN118 Simon Wellings came and spoke to you in Germany, did you feel like you were able to disclose anything about your
01:04:37 to disclose anything about your deployment to him that was causing you any concern? No.
01:04:42 No. Would did you disclose to anybody your relationship with Maya? No.
01:04:46 No. And did you feel like you could have done if you wanted to? No.
01:04:49 No. Why was that? Because again with in retrospect I think And I want to make clear I'm not making excuses. And I address this is addressing everyone here more than
01:05:01 addressing everyone here more than anything. I've not come here to provide excuses. I have come here see as expected
01:05:09 expected to provide context
01:05:15 and so why did you not feel like you could disclose that relationship? I suspect at the time what happened was I internalized this notion that there were
01:05:26 internalized this notion that there were things that you spoke about things that you didn't and that in essence you did what you did in order to make the job work
01:05:33 work to undertake your role and to fill your obligations as an SDS officer. Were you aware at the time of anybody else in the SDS uh
01:05:44 else in the SDS uh struggling with their deployments in any way?
01:05:57 I believe that there had been an officer who had been recruited perhaps to the right wing. We perhaps I
01:06:21 HN79 possibly. I believe I've identified the correct officer. I'm not sure that's right. Um it does it doesn't matter. We can um
01:06:30 um can you pause a moment on on this topic? Yeah. Uh as I repeatedly state um it is an acknowledged fact that during the existence of the SDS from the 1980s
01:06:43 existence of the SDS from the 1980s onwards uh there were deployments into the extreme right wing beyond that uh apart from the evidence of 1856 which we've heard that's it.
01:06:56 we've heard that's it. Um, in terms of post deployment, is it right that you went to work at the Muslim contact unit in February 2008? That's correct. Yes.
01:07:10 And you were there for about 12 to 18 months?
01:07:12 months? Yes.
01:07:13 Yes. Were you working there with Bob Lambert and DS Gilbertson? No. Um, Bob Lambert was not at the MCU there. and Gilbertson. I don't recall being in the MCU or having worked on the
01:07:25 being in the MCU or having worked on the MCU.
01:07:27 MCU. Were any of your ex SDS officers there? Um, from the middle of 2009, would that be about right that you moved from there to the counterterrorism
01:07:39 from there to the counterterrorism intelligence unit in East London? Counterterrorism intelligence officer. Yes. Okay. And you were based there in East London until 2014? Yes.
01:07:55 You say in your witness statement at par paragraph 305 that the SDS operation led to the breakup of your family and impacted on your mental
01:08:06 family and impacted on your mental health. Um,
01:08:12 well, I think we've we we've generally covered that. In terms of the SDS impacting on your family life, to what extent was it your own decision making within your deployment that led to that?
01:08:26 within your deployment that led to that? Clearly, given the expectations that I was working under within SDS, my decision certainly contributed to uh the eventual um destruction of my then
01:08:38 the eventual um destruction of my then relationship
01:08:44 post deployment. Did you continue to use the handle Boogie Boy when you were blogging on websites such as Urban 75? I think for a time I did. Yes.
01:08:58 And after that did you continue to contribute in your real identity but under the handle fictionist? That's correct. Did you have any other identities
01:09:12 Did you have any other identities on uh blogging sites? Not that I not linked to my operation. No.
01:09:23 So just in terms of um your character of uh or your your undercover operational identity, did you continue to use that in any capacity?
01:09:34 in any capacity? Not for the gathering of information or or intelligence? No. Not to what? Sorry. Not to gather intelligence. No. Did you continue to use the undercover identity of Rob Harrison in any other in
01:09:45 identity of Rob Harrison in any other in any other form? Well, I think it's probably a matter of record that I would have contacted me, in which case I would have likely have used the RSP Harrison email address.
01:09:57 Yeah. Did you did you post on on on blogging sites or any other digital format using any other handle as Rob
01:10:08 format using any other handle as Rob Harrison?
01:10:09 Harrison? Well, that I can recall. Is it likely that you did? You just can't remember. Yeah.
01:10:20 And to what extent then did you continue to use your operational cover in that way? Can you recall how long you used that identity for? Maybe six months to a year, I think.
01:10:31 Maybe six months to a year, I think. Maybe slightly longer.
01:10:37 Are you sure about that or did it continue after that? If it's Is there Do I make reference to it in my statement? Again, I can't say for certain.
01:10:48 Again, I can't say for certain. Um, you've mentioned that you continue to use the email at RSP Harrison. Um, what about the email boogie riseup.net?
01:10:59 riseup.net? No, that the boogie at risenet was only used during the course of my deployment
01:11:07 by me. I think that's worth that's possibly a point that's worth um underlining in terms of any uh
01:11:19 in terms of any uh engagement with Twitter at Eve Chowry at paragraph 5.10 of his witness statement states that Rob followed me on Twitter
01:11:30 states that Rob followed me on Twitter as late as 2019. made me feel anxious that I was continued to be surveiled. And so he came off Twitter as a result.
01:11:42 came off Twitter as a result. And at paragraph 5.11, he said, "Reading this disclosure has brought on panic attacks, thoughts of taking my own life and prescribed medication and counseling. Can you recognize
01:11:56 counseling. Can you recognize the impact that such uh uh uh continued communication and a sense of continued surveillance has had on Mr. Chowry?
01:12:09 Given my experiences, I am loathed to be critical around this and question what a is saying. What I think I should make clear is that I'm aware that at one
01:12:21 clear is that I'm aware that at one stage um I was on Twitter that would have been as me not in the persona of my former identity as
01:12:31 so on Twitter you were able to follow him were you? It was open access so there was no it was just you would follow individuals that you may have an interest in and as
01:12:42 that you may have an interest in and as I said previously
01:12:46 I'm aware of Yeah,
01:12:49 Yeah, I, as I said, is probably likely someone that in a different environment, under different circumstances, I would have thought that he and I could possibly have been particularly good friends.
01:13:00 have been particularly good friends. So, you followed him on Twitter as Robert Hastings. Is that right?
01:13:08 Did you give any thought about the intrusion into his personal life? uh that you continue to have as a police
01:13:21 uh that you continue to have as a police officer?
01:13:23 officer? No.
01:13:24 No. Um bearing in mind, however, that I was not a police officer from um August 2000. No, sorry, that's not correct. From late 2014.
01:13:35 So that uh when did you start following him on Twitter as as as Robert Hastings probably? Well, it would have been sometime after 2014.
01:13:46 sometime after 2014. Okay. And that is out of a personal interest, is it? Yes. As I as I've said previously, um I don't know if this this is something that other officers have described, but
01:14:00 that other officers have described, but you do make connections with people when you're out in the field, and the hardest thing I found as well was to um perhaps let go.
01:14:12 Um, and did you give any thought to the the ethics or the morals around that sort of behavior? No.
01:14:19 No. Or the impact that it would have? No. Mr. Chowry, I'd like to move on then, please, to uh further contact with Maya. Uh, she addresses this at paragraph 4.58
01:14:33 Uh, she addresses this at paragraph 4.58 of her witness statement. don't need to bring it up, but essentially what she says is that throughout 2008 and 2009, you contacted her intermittently,
01:14:45 her intermittently, posting comments in response to blog posts, sending emails, and some of those were sent out of the blue. Would you accept that? Yes.
01:14:56 Um, she says that on the 16th of February 2008, in a reply to a blog post you sent to sent to Maya an email address get
01:15:08 to sent to Maya an email address get stupidfreshmail.uk. Do you recall doing that? No, but that sounds like an email address because of the nature of that the name the way that email address is composed as a name. Yes, that's that's
01:15:19 composed as a name. Yes, that's that's something I would have used. And in 2008, had you created this email address
01:15:31 this email address in the identity of uh uh Robert Harrison?
01:15:36 Harrison? I'm not certain whether the email address would have been linked to Harrison or to myself in terms of registration, the name,
01:15:45 but you were essentially continuing your operational cover identity for the purposes of contacting Mayer. Yes.
01:15:52 Yes. If we can go to that blog post, it's uh exhibit three of my exhibited to uh
01:16:03 exhibit three of my exhibited to uh attached to my statement uh UCPI 38193
01:16:15 at page two, please.
01:16:22 And it's this bottom post. And this is you anonymous. Yes.
01:16:30 Yes. Looks like a figure with a brown paper bag over its head. I don't know about the That's just standard, is it? That's not something you've chosen. I I would likely not have chosen that if I if I had any choice, I think.
01:16:41 I if I had any choice, I think. And you And you can see here the hotmail address posted. That's I I accept that with an R X. Yeah. off kiss. Yes.
01:16:54 And
01:17:00 you then send an uh
01:17:16 Maya sends an email to you on the 10th of May,
01:17:21 of May, which She's behind uh uh exhibit one M1 UCPI UCPI 38191 page 64
01:17:50 and This is her response to that blog post
01:18:01 and she sent it to the getstupidfresh athotmail.co.uk email address. Is that right? Yes.
01:18:09 Yes. And do you recall receiving that email from Maya? I'm not going to neither. I would have I would have if I'd received it, I would have read it most certainly. And were you pleased to have uh regained
01:18:21 And were you pleased to have uh regained contact with her post your uh withdrawal from the SCS? Yes.
01:18:28 Yes. And was it your intention to continue using your cover identity for the purposes of uh uh reigniting some form of relationship with Maya?
01:18:39 of relationship with Maya? That would have been my explicit intention, but nec it would have been necessary obviously to do so because Maya would not have known who I actually was.
01:18:54 You emailed Mayer then on the 16th of May 2008 and it's at page 65 of this document.
01:19:08 So, you've now regained contact just over a year after uh uh leaving her in the spring or the Easter of 2007.
01:19:19 in the spring or the Easter of 2007. Yes.
01:19:21 Yes. And you say, "Hello, Ann. Uh it does seem slightly strange writing this, but as time has passed, I think it's quite fair to say that you have remained in my thoughts. And despite the various trials
01:19:32 thoughts. And despite the various trials and tribulations that our friendship endured, I always remember you with great affection. That fairly formal opening, is that
01:19:44 That fairly formal opening, is that minimizing the relationship that you had with Maya just over a year previously? No, that's there's there is a certain formality there.
01:19:57 I would not look to minimize the impact that I had on my in any way, shape or form.
01:20:04 form. You talk about life has changed a little for you and things have uh moved on.
01:20:12 In that paragraph two, you express a disappointment that your targets didn't come looking for you after you left. Is that fair to say?
01:20:29 I think that would have been fair. I think the issue there is that those people
01:20:34 people were clearly still very much alive to me and real as as they as they as I understood them to be. And so is it right that even though your withdrawal was fairly truncated and a
01:20:45 withdrawal was fairly truncated and a bit chaotic towards the end and you simply left the groups that you had infiltrated, nobody actually uh came looking for you. It would appear so.
01:20:58 It would appear so. Paragraph five of this email,
01:21:02 you make reference to Woolitch at the very end of that. You talk about her staying away from Woolitch and into paragraph six, you talk about silver foil and that being of
01:21:14 talk about silver foil and that being of no benefit whatsoever. And I hope you have realized that to be true. This reference to Woolitch and silver foil. Would that be a reference to the occasion that Maya says you picked her
01:21:26 occasion that Maya says you picked her up from her friend's house in Woolitch where she told you she had been using silver foil to take uh uh hard drugs? I I think as I said in relation to that I don't recall doing that but I would
01:21:38 don't recall doing that but I would certainly recognize that silver foil appears to be possibly some reference to to possibly to drug use. And so al although you don't recall that uh event where you picked her up from a
01:21:49 uh event where you picked her up from a friend's house and took her home um just after you left well in the summer of 2007. Is it fair to say that that probably did happen because you're referring to it almost a year later in
01:22:00 referring to it almost a year later in an email?
01:22:02 an email? Is it likely? Do you think it's possible? You don't accept that it's probable given what you're saying here? I can say no more than it was possible. Is there any other way you would have
01:22:13 Is there any other way you would have found out about her being in Witch using hard drugs using silver foil? Woolitch would have been mentioned because I'm aware that I recall at least
01:22:24 because I'm aware that I recall at least that Maya had said that she had friends who lived in Woolage previously. And what about silver foil and using that?
01:22:34 that? I would take that to be that would appear to be a reference to some form of drug use.
01:22:43 But you don't accept that that confirms my account of you picking her up on that day from her friend's house? No. In relation to that specific question, I don't recall doing that. Can we move to page 67, please?
01:23:07 At the top of the page, we see that the get stupid fresh hotmail account appears to be linked to somebody called Curtis Metronic. Metronic. Is that another
01:23:18 Metronic. Metronic. Is that another identity that you have created for the purposes of contacting Meer in your identity as Rob Harrison? It looks as if it's come from the email. Um, the name
01:23:31 it's come from the email. Um, the name is just a name. Sorry. Can you explain that? Where does Curtis Metronic come from? It's just it's Well, it's the name of a It's linked to the Get Fresh. It's
01:23:43 It's linked to the Get Fresh. It's relates to an audio recording. The individual names there. It's part of the group that um responsible for that audio recording. So, it's a record
01:23:58 Would you have used the name Curtis Metronic to set up that email address? Possibly. It would appear. So, so it's another identity. Yes. Just for the purposes of an email address. Yes.
01:24:06 Yes. But you didn't use that that name Curtis with my
01:24:10 with my It would have been Rob. Were you using this email address for other purposes? Uh I wouldn't have to be part of any No, I was not. There was no
01:24:22 No, I was not. There was no to be clear. There was no activity on my part in relation to uh politics or other individuals. You weren't still part of any email
01:24:33 You weren't still part of any email distribution groups from the groups that you had in which is why I I I raised the issue of um the boogie riseup net. Um, I can fully appreciate how access to rise up
01:24:45 fully appreciate how access to rise up network may potentially have been used to um, special branch after my deployment had ended or rather as it then was counter terrorism command SO5.
01:24:56 then was counter terrorism command SO5. Okay.
01:24:58 Okay. Um, we can see in this email that you write to Maya, this is now in March 2009, that you're referring to Gabriel again.
01:25:09 that you're referring to Gabriel again. Yeah.
01:25:10 Yeah. and angels. Yeah.
01:25:12 Yeah. Do they have free will? You question that.
01:25:16 that. Well, I would say, forgive me, but reading this now, I would say that
01:25:23 Muslims present, I imagine that you read that and that is quite offensive or could potentially be offensive to you. Sorry, that's offensive to who? Potentially be um offensive to any
01:25:35 Potentially be um offensive to any Muslims who may be present or listening. Sorry, you're suggesting I've been offensive. I No, no, no fault with you. Entirely with me.
01:25:45 with me. And why do you say that? If you think about the subject matter that's being discussed there, why did you refer to Gabriel? Are you putting yourself in the the position of
01:25:56 putting yourself in the the position of Gabriel as an angel? Is that Are you referring to yourself not having free will?
01:26:03 will? What are you trying to convey to Maya? I'm not certain. 2009. I'm not certain what I'm trying to say here. Okay. In terms of using that analogy, are you trying to say that, you know,
01:26:15 are you trying to say that, you know, you are you're back in her life and you're still looking over her? I can see the last I can see the last sentence which perhaps is going to be the object of a particular question by you which I've watched her window as an angel should. I don't know whether
01:26:27 angel should. I don't know whether that's true or not. We've discussed this previously and I said that wasn't the case.
01:26:31 case. And do you stand by that that you probably haven't watched her window or do you accept that although you don't have an independent recollection of it now given that you were writing that you had watched her window as an angel
01:26:43 had watched her window as an angel should unseen and unknown that perhaps you had been revisiting her home and watching her through the window. No, I suspect that what they may make a reference to is the fact that perhaps
01:26:54 reference to is the fact that perhaps when I've driven past and I've had reason to be in the area in which Maya was living, may have driven past where she was living and just seen the window and driven past and continued past.
01:27:07 and driven past and continued past. The sense that you're watching her window though as an angel should suggest that you're you're stood watching from outside for I I can appreciate that. That could be a potentially interpretation, but no, I
01:27:18 potentially interpretation, but no, I made clear to you that I certainly would have stood outside anyone's window to watch them. Uh Maya says that looking back on that now, those messages make her feel uneasy
01:27:29 now, those messages make her feel uneasy and paranoid. Can you accept that that would be uh the impact of such Absolutely. Yes. communication? Yes.
01:27:41 Page 68, please.
01:27:46 reading bottom to top. So, so I've got an eye on the time. I'm I've got a way to go on these emails. Uh, is it an appropriate time to
01:27:58 emails. Uh, is it an appropriate time to break now for a short break this afternoon? Let me ask the um transcribers, would you like a break now because I think it'll be at least another half an hour before we finish this.
01:28:11 Um I think it's probably better if it's all right with you that we continue and then have a break which we always do for rule 10 questions. Uh and then to set up the the hearing rooms for privacy. So if
01:28:24 the the hearing rooms for privacy. So if we break three times uh it might um cause us to go rather long into the afternoon. Right. Grateful.
01:28:33 Grateful. So reading bottom to top on this uh email chain. We've got an email down at the bottom, April 1st, 2009.
01:28:44 It's from Maya to you saying, "Considering all the activist stuff going on in the square mile, I wonder if you are there or whether you have left those days of your and your
01:28:57 have left those days of your and your capitalist friend Maya. You respond to that.
01:29:02 that. You say no G20. Well, it's not not
01:29:11 the the interesting part is buy me a drink and I'll tell you more. Yes.
01:29:15 Yes. Jack said that. Yes.
01:29:16 Yes. So, you're wanting to have personal contact with Maya. And she responds, well, I owe you a drink or two. You can see that about a third of the way down.
01:29:32 At the end of her email back to you, I owe you a drink or two, she's uh uh uh willing to meet up with you again. Yes.
01:29:42 Yes. And you say in response to that, indeed you do. Then you can me. Yeah.
01:29:47 Yeah. A kiss.
01:29:48 A kiss. Yeah.
01:29:50 Yeah. Why did you respond to her in that way? I have no excuse for that, but I don't know why I did that.
01:29:58 Was it because your goal of getting back in touch with Maya was to reestablish a relationship where you would be having
01:30:09 a relationship where you would be having sex with Maya and it was that relationship that you were trying to reignite because it suited you at the time.
01:30:16 time. I would say that I just wanted to have a relationship with Maya. Pardon?
01:30:19 Pardon? I I would say that I wanted to have a relationship with Maya. Were you interested in getting back in touch with Maya for sex? No. For relationship.
01:30:32 Would you say that this uh response has echoes of the very start of the relationship where you said to her or she recalls you saying to her, "Now you
01:30:43 she recalls you saying to her, "Now you can kiss me." No.
01:30:46 No. And I appreciate you say that that didn't happen. Yeah. Um,
01:30:51 Yeah. Um, but I can see that that is But would you would you accept that it appears that that is the sort of thing that you you have said here quite clearly in an email? It's it's clearly offensive. There's no
01:31:02 It's it's clearly offensive. There's no doubt about that. And it's that suggestion that implies that's what she's looking for. You're going to allow her to do it. I I can't I have no idea why I actually wrote that.
01:31:17 in terms of um your relationship. Well, if I can if I can ask you this first. Maya says that in relation to
01:31:28 first. Maya says that in relation to that uh uh email, she felt hurt, confused, demeaned, and objectified by that response, and that's a paragraph 4.62 of her email of her witness
01:31:39 4.62 of her email of her witness statement. Do you accept that that can obviously cause that response in someone?
01:31:44 someone? Absolutely. Yes.
01:31:49 Did you consider her feelings at all when writing that? Likely not. In terms of your relationship with your
01:32:00 In terms of your relationship with your exartner, was that still uh in existence? Your sexual relationship with your exartner? I was still in a relationship with my exartner.
01:32:16 In 2010, we have the revelations in the press. Just to put things in context, we've got the revelations in the press about undercover officers such as Mark Kennedy and the relationships between
01:32:28 Kennedy and the relationships between UCOs and women. Um, were you aware of that when those news stories broke? I likely would have been
01:32:40 in on the 26th of February 2010. And this is at page uh 71 of the exhibit. You sent an email to Maya
01:33:00 at 4:01 in the afternoon.
01:33:14 And in the last paragraph, if you had a chance to look over it, it's really the last paragraph that I want to ask you about.
01:33:29 Yeah. where you say, "I've driven past your old place a few times and often considered stopping to see if you were home, but then for reasons that remain unclear, I decided against it with my
01:33:40 unclear, I decided against it with my ego telling me to stay away for your good."
01:33:44 good." And I think would probably agree with that sentiment.
01:33:52 Why do you say you should stay away for her good?
01:33:55 her good? Well, clearly because the relationship, as discussed previously, had ended. very badly.
01:34:01 badly. And in terms of he would agree with that sentiment is that because you'd had conversations with Atif about your relationship with Maya
01:34:11 Maya I would no I would say that perhaps the reason I would have said that was the assumption that Maya was still speaking and she may have confided or spoken to him
01:34:22 confided or spoken to him about the fact that the relationship between broken had ended so badly. Does this give support to Maya's recollection that actually she would
01:34:33 recollection that actually she would speak to about problems in the relationship and a teeth would then speak to you about it? But you'd be dismissive. I don't
01:34:41 I don't in relation to
01:34:50 um you say regardless I send you my love and you remain in my prayers. Are you appealing to her Christian background at this stage?
01:35:01 Christian background at this stage? No.
01:35:02 No. Were you aware at this stage that she had been brought up in a a Christian background before and I said no. I was I was not aware.
01:35:08 aware. Never aware of that. That's correct. Were you religious? Not necessarily at the time.
01:35:20 And so reference to being in prayers, what is that? A a throwway comment or No, not throwaway, a general sense of wishing well-being and obviously thinking about her and wishing her well.
01:35:35 And when you say wishing her well, is that despite the fact that you think perhaps staying away from her would be better for her well-being? It's confusing. Yes.
01:35:48 After that, you don't contact her for about another four years. Is that fair? That would appear to be. So, what was the reason then for making
01:36:00 what was the reason then for making contact with Maya, talking about uh getting together and having sex again, letting her know that you're watching out, she's in your prayers, and then you
01:36:12 out, she's in your prayers, and then you just don't speak uh contact her for four years. What What's going on there? I I can't speak to that. I'm not I don't I have no idea.
01:36:24 Again, just for context, by the 6th of March, 2014, Theresa May tells Par Parliament there will be an inquiry into undercover policing. Do you recall that being
01:36:36 policing. Do you recall that being announced? I certainly recall Theresa May being responsible for the announcement of the inquiry. Yes.
01:36:46 And then in terms of what's going on in your real life, uh, the inquiry understands that on Saturday the 2nd of August 2014. 14.
02:00:17 last email that you sent on the 28th. Sorry, sorry, the email that Maya sent to you on the 31st of August, 2009. Before we get to here, there is some correspondence between you both about
02:00:29 correspondence between you both about meeting. And then we get to this email from you on the 2nd of September saying, "Dear Maya, one last thing. I remember you said that I had never been enough
02:00:41 you said that I had never been enough for you physically. That never left me ever. If that was indeed the case, then I am not sure what I could possibly say. And now I live in privacy about 5
02:00:53 And now I live in privacy about 5 minutes from your old address.
02:00:58 So whilst there had been correspondence between you both and there's a a an understanding that you would meet up at some point, you send this to her. And my
02:01:10 some point, you send this to her. And my question is, is this an attempt to ensure that she would want to prove that she hadn't said that and that it's a way of getting her to engage with you
02:01:23 of getting her to engage with you physically again? No.
02:01:24 No. To have sex? No. To make you feel better about what you alleged she said? No.
02:01:32 No. Maya says in her witness statement at paragraph 4.70, she found this email very confusing because she does not recall having said
02:01:43 because she does not recall having said that and she would have had no reason to say that and so she responded to reassure you. Um, and now she feels that
02:01:54 reassure you. Um, and now she feels that the resumption of contact with you by you was sexually motivated. And this email saying, you know, you said I was never enough for you physically. It was an attempt to
02:02:06 physically. It was an attempt to manipulate her prior to the meeting to make it more likely you'd have sex with her.
02:02:13 her. Is that true? No.
02:02:15 No. What were you trying to do? What was the point of that email? From what I can recall, I just simply wanted to see her.
02:02:26 recall, I just simply wanted to see her. Um,
02:02:28 Um, what did you mean by never being enough for you physically? You're referring to sex there. Is that right? Just our general being together.
02:02:39 And knowing the history of your relationship with Maya, you being together was largely a sexual relationship, wasn't it? It played large parts. We've discussed
02:02:50 It played large parts. We've discussed Were you trying to suggest to Maya that she'd told you that you couldn't satisfy her sexually? Don't know.
02:03:02 Was that an attempt to make her feel bad about the sexual relationship and that she should prove you wrong? No.
02:03:19 What other explanation could there be for this email? In truth, I don't have one.
02:03:30 In terms of further correspondence between you, you're arranging to meet up. We're moving to um the 4th to the 5th of September 2014.
02:03:42 5th of September 2014. A string of emails. The first one being at page 77.
02:03:51 Reading from at bottom to top of the page.
02:04:05 You say to her, "Tomorrow we'll travel outside of London in the morning, returning in the early afternoon. a good time to meet perhaps Hillyfield's a good choice.
02:04:15 choice. So this is when you're trying to pin down a location and time to meet. Is that fair? Yes.
02:04:22 Yes. And that's on the 4th of September.
02:04:27 She responds in the early hours of well six o'clock quarter sorry 6:48 in the in the morning of the 5th and she said, "Well, I'll I'll wait to hear from you when you get back.
02:04:43 And it only takes so long to get up to Hillyfields anyway. So you can always message me on WhatsApp, text or email when you are ready to know what time to meet. She provides you with her phone
02:04:55 meet. She provides you with her phone number. See you later. So she's ready to meet up with you in the afternoon of that Friday, the 5th of September. Is that fair? Yes.
02:05:07 Yes. And it's right, isn't it, that Friday the 5th of September is that date we looked at earlier when you were back at the court for sentencing.
02:05:18 for sentencing. And so had it been your intention to go to court
02:05:23 to court where you'll be sentenced and then come back immediately to meet up with Maya, it would appear sign. Why didn't you? Why did I not Why did you not meet up with Maya that
02:05:35 Why did you not meet up with Maya that afternoon? F I can't recall.
02:05:47 It appears that you reply to her on Friday
02:05:52 Friday in the evening at 7:47 the top of the page saying you are always offline. Did you try to phone her at all to let
02:06:03 Did you try to phone her at all to let her know you wouldn't be attending? I don't recall. But you're accusing her for not being contactable. I don't that could be read as I'm just saying you're always offline so I've not
02:06:15 saying you're always offline so I've not been able to contact her.
02:06:21 Are you again blaming Maya for your failing not being able to meet up with her and be there for her?
02:06:32 her and be there for her? No.
02:06:34 No. Why did you not provide Maya with your mobile phone number? I have no idea. I think at the time I all went to do actually see her in person.
02:06:44 person. Did you not provide her with your mobile phone number because you could then withdraw from her life again quite easily and it was much more easy to control?
02:06:52 control? No.
02:06:55 Page 83, please.
02:07:09 In between these emails, there's been further correspondence about trying to meet up.
02:07:18 And by the 7th of September, you send an email to her. So, make yourself available.
02:07:27 Um, and and you send this uh what looks like a poem. Godful piece of doggle poetry. So, you never told me yet you broke my heart. I loved you. You broke my heart.
02:07:39 heart. I loved you. You broke my heart. I wanted to be with you forever. You broke my heart. I thought about family. You broke my heart. You listened to in quotes. You broke my heart. I never
02:07:50 quotes. You broke my heart. I never satisfied you. You said you broke my heart. I was never enough. You said you broke my heart. Is this a list of allegations that you make in a in a
02:08:02 allegations that you make in a in a poetic way to her making her feel guilty about the way she has made you feel? I can't tell you what my intention was when I wrote that nonsense.
02:08:15 when I wrote that nonsense. Seven times you say to her in that poem, "You broke my heart." is the truth in fact that you broke her heart.
02:08:28 With the understanding that I have now, if I did,
02:08:33 if I did, it appears to have been likely and I caused her a great deal of pain. And I can only apologize over and over again and say I'm sorry.
02:19:24 Skype message. There was scarring on her thighs, wasn't there, in relation to self harming? Not that I recall, as I've said previously. Um, what you recall previously was, you
02:19:35 Um, what you recall previously was, you said scarring to her arms. Yes.
02:19:37 Yes. And you indicated it was on her forearm lower down. Um, in her evidence, she said that she wouldn't have uh scarred her arms because she wore short sleeve
02:19:48 her arms because she wore short sleeve dresses and she wouldn't want people to know that. So, that the scarring was often breasts and stomach and places where nobody would normally be able to see the scarring.
02:20:02 see the scarring. Does it make sense to you that that is in fact what she did to her own body and it wasn't that she scarred her lower arms?
02:20:12 arms? As I've said previously, my recollection was the arms. Is it likely that you've misremembered that?
02:20:19 that? I don't think so. You say here that I want to protect you, hug you, make love to you, you, just be with you. Is it your intention that actually the
02:20:32 Is it your intention that actually the the sex is very much the purpose for you re-entering Maya's life? No, but I accept that that is again I have to make the point I I would
02:20:44 again I have to make the point I I would apologize for that. Can we have a look at uh page 18 to 21 please of this exhibit?
02:21:02 You say at the top of page 18, "I want to be with you until I die." At the bottom of page 19, "I remember the last time we made love, have my baby, you
02:21:14 time we made love, have my baby, you wore glasses."
02:21:20 She responds, "Um,
02:21:24 I need more than one baby. I'm wearing glasses right now." You say, "I will give you all the babies you want and live with you outside the UK, kissing you every day." And she says, "But what
02:21:35 you every day." And she says, "But what if I want to live in the UK? I don't know yet. Life is easier outside." Is it clear from this correspondence you were seeking to have her believe that
02:21:48 were seeking to have her believe that you were back wanting to build a future with her, have babies with her and live permanently with her? That would have been my intention at the
02:21:59 That would have been my intention at the time, I believe. Was that a true intention or were you actually just lying to her at this stage?
02:22:05 stage? No, that would have been, I believe, my true intention at that time. How could you have given her all the babies she wanted? Because as I've discussed previously, whilst I've had a vasectomy, those things are reversible and some other
02:22:17 things are reversible and some other mechanisms available whereby if we'd got to that point, we could have explored the option of having children together. In reality, is it that you're simply
02:22:28 In reality, is it that you're simply lying to her? You're giving her a false sense of security about you being back in her life. What about living outside the UK? What was your desire to live outside the UK
02:22:40 was your desire to live outside the UK at this stage in 2014? I think I would have quite happily lived outside the UK. You you would have quite happily lived outside the UK. Any other reason for
02:22:51 outside the UK. Any other reason for wanting to live outside the UK at this stage?
02:22:54 stage? I would have imagined at that time given what happened,
02:23:00 UK to me would have been somewhere that I would have been quite happy to turn my back on. Has that got anything to do with this inquiry? No, just what had happened to my life. My life had completely exploded.
02:23:19 Can we have a look at um ex page 41 of this exhibit, please?
02:23:36 So this is uh again Skype messages and in terms of the format of this we've have we've got the screenshots of Skype messages. Is that right? And then this is another format but again still Skype
02:23:50 is another format but again still Skype messages. Is that your understanding of it appears to be what's going on here? Was it common that you would correspond through Skype? We were certainly communicating via Skype at that time.
02:24:02 communicating via Skype at that time. So by the 15th of November then we can see just by the first hole punch about a third of the way down the page uh at 1902 and 3 seconds you say if I
02:24:18 uh at 1902 and 3 seconds you say if I marry you I will never leave you. I will be yours until death. That is what I want to love you forever. If we never had children, I would want to make
02:24:29 never had children, I would want to make sure your family was okay. So this is again making giving those expressions of uh future security for her and her family, her wider family. Is that
02:24:42 family, her wider family. Is that that is clearly I can't dispute what's written at the time.
02:24:47 So, does that make sense that Maya does recall you saying all of these things to her during the course of this re-engagement in the latter part of 2014?
02:24:58 2014? I can't dispute this material record. You can't dispute it now that it's written down in black and white, but you did dispute it when it was purely Meyers
02:25:11 did dispute it when it was purely Meyers evidence particular as to what happened at that meeting, the first meeting in the in the park. Would you like to go back to that? Explain to me, please. in uh September two uh the 11th of September 2014. I
02:25:25 two uh the 11th of September 2014. I think you disputed that Maya uh you were telling Maya all about this future relationship that you would have. Are you only admitting to it because we've got it in black and white written
02:25:36 we've got it in black and white written by you? No. On Skype?
02:25:38 On Skype? No.
02:25:42 No.
02:25:46 Do you accept that perhaps maybe her recollection of what you were telling her when you met face to face is probably right given the
02:25:57 is probably right given the correspondence that comes afterwards? I can only tell you what I as I recall things at the time.
02:26:17 Can we look please at page 44 to 56.
02:26:31 there's a correspondence between you over the 15th, the 21st, the 24th, and the 27th of November 2014.
02:26:45 the 27th of November 2014. And to put this into some context, the 27th of November, 2014 is the first day of your disciplinary hearing.
02:27:01 So, starting on page 44, what I want to uh uh show you from these Skype messages is that you make highly sexually explicit comments to Maya over
02:27:12 sexually explicit comments to Maya over Skype and encourage her to remove her clothes for you. Is it right that over Skype messaging there was a camera as well that was in play?
02:27:25 well that was in play? I believe so. And was that just on Maya's side of the computer system? Did you have a camera on your side? Possibly.
02:27:37 Possibly. Um I think according to um
02:27:43 what we have here, the camera is um one-sided on Maya's side until later on in the communication. Okay.
02:27:54 Okay. Halfway down the page on page 44, 15th of November 2014, 1924 and 26 seconds, you ask, are you wearing a and I think I
02:28:05 you ask, are you wearing a and I think I supposed to say bra and you you you correct that spelling. Is it
02:28:10 Is it I'm not I'm not going to dispute these messages that you have here. I don't know if you and forgive me for saying this, but I'm not going to dispute any of these messages that you have here. You can go through them. I
02:28:21 have here. You can go through them. I don't know if your purpose here is to try and embarrass me any further, but I can promise you that I am ashamed of this and I look in retrospect at this and it is disgusting and it's terrible.
02:28:33 and it is disgusting and it's terrible. And once again, I make the point that I can just apologize to to Myer again and hopefully say that there is a context to this which I have tried to try to explain in some way.
02:28:46 explain in some way. Mr. Hastings, my intention is not to embarrass you um in relation to these uh messages. The intention is to set out the type of uh behaviors that are
02:28:58 the type of uh behaviors that are involved in the relationship and how Maya was treated in the context of the evidence that she's been able to give to this inquiry. Um I appreciate that you're saying
02:29:10 Um I appreciate that you're saying you're not going to uh uh uh dispute any of these texts. On page 46,
02:29:25 we can see again I'm not going to dispute anything that's written down. No, but do you It's right, isn't it then, that in fact what you're saying to her is if you come to mine, I will make
02:29:37 her is if you come to mine, I will make love to you. And she
02:29:42 And she consents that. She wants that, too. She says that quite clearly. You say, "I want to be inside you. Come in you." I'm not going to dispute any of this. The reason
02:29:53 The reason is this an undercover policeing inquiry or is this about my behavior as an individual? When I this this is I am saying to you quite clearly I do not dispute any of this that is actually written down. I'm happy to say to you
02:30:04 written down. I'm happy to say to you here and now clearly to the chairman as well. I do not dispute any of these messages.
02:30:09 messages. Okay. Um,
02:30:13 the relevance of it, Mr. Hastings, is that it's highly relevant to what takes place later on in 2015 in February when you get together and you actually have
02:30:25 you get together and you actually have sex for the first time. So, if that's your forgive me, but if that's your relationship, if that's the case, then forgive me. I'm quite happy. Why don't we not go to that particular date? And I would we can and I mean this respectfully I'm happy to
02:30:37 I mean this respectfully I'm happy to try and deal with whatever you might want wish to put to me there. I do not dispute to be clear any of these messages here. I have clearly behaved in an incredibly bad way.
02:30:48 an incredibly bad way. I accept I've behaved badly towards Maya and I've apologized again and I will continue to do so and I feel incredibly guilty because of the way that I behaved. Even though I might not be able to sit here as you would wish and explain these things rationally and
02:31:00 explain these things rationally and provide you with a rational framework as to why I behaved in that manner. I can't do that and I wish I could.
02:31:10 If it feels to me at the moment, and I accept this, that there is one thing to try and discover some form of truth, it is another thing to try and continue something in such a way as to feel as if
02:31:21 something in such a way as to feel as if you're being tortured in some way. I'm aware that I've done wrong. I'm aware that I've hurt Maya. I'm aware that I hurt my family. Mr. Hastings, do you dispute that when
02:31:34 Mr. Hastings, do you dispute that when you met
02:31:36 you met with Maya in 2015 on the 8th of February,
02:31:41 February, you had sex with her at her home? I don't dispute the fact that we had sex. No. And do you dispute that she asked you to be careful because she
02:31:54 asked you to be careful because she hadn't taken a contraceptive pill and that nonetheless you ejaculated inside her?
02:32:01 her? Yes, I do dispute that. Then in that case these messages are highly relevant to that and I would need to take you to the relevant parts of these messages.
02:32:13 It may be sir that we take a break at this. No, forgive me, but I'd much rather that we do this now. Okay, if you're going to go through this and wish to do this, but I make the point again, I don't dispute the messages. And
02:32:24 again, I don't dispute the messages. And I'm quite happy to say that I do dispute the recollection that's been offered of Maya. This is beginning to feel less like truth and more like torture of some kind. We're trying to get sorry
02:32:38 we are trying to get to the truth and Maya has given very uh uh serious evidence about her treatment by you as an undercover officer and for that reason to be fair
02:32:51 officer and for that reason to be fair to you
02:32:52 to you I'm not an undercover officer at this stage
02:32:54 stage you were sorry in the context of you having been an undercover officer and continuing to use your undercover persona when you reenter Mia's life. And it's
02:33:06 when you reenter Mia's life. And it's for that reason that it's a serious allegation that has been made about your treatment of Maya. Can I ask you, do you accept that throughout those days of the
02:33:18 accept that throughout those days of the 15th, the 21st, the 24th, and the 27th of November, in the run-up to your disciplinary hearing with the MPS, you over
02:33:29 over a persistent period of time over Skype ask Maya to remove her clothes, performing sex acts. If it's in the messages, then I will not dispute it. and persistently say
02:33:41 dispute it. and persistently say if it's in the messages, I will not dispute it. It's clearly a matter of record if it's in the in in in those messages. I've said to you repeatedly, I will not dispute that. Mr. Hastings, do you accept that you
02:33:52 Mr. Hastings, do you accept that you repeatedly said to her over those days, I want to come in you. If it's in there, I cannot dispute it again. I've said that. And so for that reason,
02:34:10 Um, while you're saying sexually explicit uh messages to her, which I've not disputed, which you've not disputed, wrapped up in romantic messages
02:34:22 romantic messages about wanting to marry her, that she will be your wife, that she will be husband. What I would have felt at the time,
02:34:34 Mr. Hastings. Was that actually true? Because you weren't even saying to her what your real identity was. I accept that. I do not dispute that at that time. I had You were lying to Maya, isn't it? I was lying to her about my identity.
02:34:47 I was lying to her about my identity. That's not the only thing you were lying about, is it? Well, what else were you are you suggesting that I was lying about? About your position in life? About what was going on in your life? About what
02:34:58 was going on in your life? About what you could offer her? I'm saying that those things were intentional that I would have wished to have done that.
02:35:05 Um, in terms of plans then to be together, can I ask you about um messages on the 24th of the 11th, 2014?
02:35:20 on the 24th of the 11th, 2014? Messages are sent between the two of you saying that we can we can meet up. Um, uh, you're asking her, tell me you love me. I will visit you tomorrow.
02:35:34 me. I will visit you tomorrow. And then by the 25th of November 2014, she's saying, "Well, I thought we might have had chance to meet. Uh, I know you've been busy. I've been free these
02:35:46 you've been busy. I've been free these evenings. Is it right that you were promising to meet with her, but that never materialized and you didn't meet again until 2015?" I don't know. Why were you treating Maya
02:35:58 I don't know. Why were you treating Maya in this way, offering her the world and then simply not meeting up with her? I don't know. If I had the world, I would have given it to Maya. You weren't true in your attentions with
02:36:10 You weren't true in your attentions with in your
02:36:11 in your That is not true. That is not true. But you left her wondering what on earth is going on here and didn't
02:36:23 is going on here and didn't spend Christmas with her when she thought you were going to spend Christmas together. Is that right? Don't recall seeing her over that period.
02:36:32 period. She thought you were going to spend Christmas together as a couple. Is that fair to say? I don't know. Mr. Hastings, we can go through all of the emails if you want to to support
02:36:44 the emails if you want to to support that assertion, but if you are accepting what's in these messages and you you will therefore accept Maya's assertion or her evidence that she thought you were planning to meet up and be together
02:36:56 were planning to meet up and be together over Christmas 2014, do you accept that? I
02:37:00 I don't recall. Do you want me to take you to the messages or not? So, are you This is a bribe of some kind.
02:37:06 kind. It's not a bribe, Mr. Hastings. Excuse me, chairman. Forgive me, but and I want to say this, please. Respectfully, of course.
02:37:15 course. At the back, this might seem to you as if this is some kind of joke. And no doubt I can appreciate, and you're shaking your head from side to side there like this is a nodding, and maybe to you this is a joke. And maybe the
02:37:26 to you this is a joke. And maybe the whole thing about SDS is a joke. Please be quiet, otherwise I will have the room cleared. It is essential that these very difficult questions are dealt with in
02:37:39 difficult questions are dealt with in complete silence.
02:37:45 Please continue.
02:38:10 Is it right that in mid October,
02:38:15 prior to the Skype messages we've just had a look at, Maya told you explicitly that she had ended her relationship with a man that she had been in relationship for for five years?
02:38:26 for for five years? I believe so. Yes. Did you recognize the disruption you had caused to Maya's life? Perhaps not the time. Would it have been clear to you that you
02:38:37 Would it have been clear to you that you were causing instability again in her life and causing her mental anguish? At the time, no. Should you have realized that at the time?
02:38:47 time? Absolutely. She was excited to spend Christmas with you after rekindling the relationship with with you, wasn't she? Quite possibly quite likely from what
02:38:59 Quite possibly quite likely from what you've said. But she heard nothing from you over the Christmas period. She contacted you. I think it was on Christmas Eve. It was either the 23rd or
02:39:10 Christmas Eve. It was either the 23rd or the 24th she contacted you. No response. Why didn't you treat her with some respect and at least respond to her messages?
02:39:19 messages? Do not know. I've got no idea what was going on with me at that time. You emailed her for the first time on the 28th of December 2014 to say that
02:39:30 the 28th of December 2014 to say that you'd had health problems. Do you recall doing that? Don't recall that, but that's likely very true. Do you accept that? That's very poor treatment. Admire, absolutely. I don't dis again I say this
02:39:41 absolutely. I don't dis again I say this again to you. I do not dispute that my treatment of MER was bad.
02:39:49 It was on the 10th of December 2014 that you had the second uh day of the disciplinary hearing where you were dismissed for gross misconduct. Is that right?
02:39:59 right? Yes.
02:40:03 Did you know Maya was contacting you then all the way up to Christmas and over the Christmas period asking sorry up until the 24th of December asking what the plans were for Christmas?
02:40:15 what the plans were for Christmas? Possibly
02:40:15 Possibly you were receiving those emails. I would have if they've been sent then yes I would have I would have received them.
02:40:21 them. When you responded and said you had health problems were you
02:40:28 wanting her to worry about you? No, you were not overly apologetic about your behavior and your treatment of her, were you?
02:40:39 of her, were you? If I wasn't at the time, I would happily do so now.
02:40:45 Can we move to the time that you had sex in February 2015?
02:40:52 2015? You attended at her home on the evening of the 8th of February, 2015. Is that right?
02:40:59 right? Yes. you'd planned to meet. I don't recall. Um,
02:41:07 Um, you arrived in the evening,
02:41:12 had sex for the first time since you had left her in 2007.
02:41:18 And it's right, isn't it, that it was unprotected sex. The penetrative element. Yes.
02:41:27 Um, she told you to be careful because she had not been taking her contraceptive pill regularly. Is that right?
02:41:35 right? No.
02:41:37 No. Her evidence to this inquiry is that she said,
02:41:47 um,
02:41:51 wait a minute. just to let you know I'm not on any contraception. Do you recall her saying that? No.
02:42:00 No. And that you said to her in some form that you would withdraw or I'll be careful.
02:42:09 And she said, "Are you sure?" And you said, "Yes, I'm an experienced person." Or words to that effect. Do you recall that
02:42:19 that you made it clear to her that you would be careful having sex? Is that fair to say? No.
02:42:35 Was it right that you gave her the impression that you were going to pull out, not ejaculate inside her? No.
02:42:46 No. Is that despite the fact that you had over the previous months in the runup to uh well up into November, the end of
02:42:57 uh well up into November, the end of November 2014, you had consistently told her over Skype messages. You wanted to come inside doing and I will simply say this to you. If I've been asked to do
02:43:09 this to you. If I've been asked to do something, I would have done it. Was not asked to do that. So, we're clear. Her recollection is that sex on that occasion lasted between five and 10
02:43:20 occasion lasted between five and 10 minutes. It was very quick and when you did ejaculate, you were very apologetic.
02:43:30 Does that ring true? No.
02:43:32 No. She says that he apologized profusely, saying, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And he felt quite shaken. Do you remember feeling quite shaken after sex
02:43:43 remember feeling quite shaken after sex that evening? And you looked shaken because of what you had done? No.
02:43:51 No. And it's at that point that you turned round and went to sleep. Do you recall doing that? No.
02:43:57 No. Do you accept that after sex you did turn over and go to sleep? No. That night?
02:44:05 What do you say happened that evening? I've explained to you that that recollection is not as I recall it. As I recall it, I went there. We clearly had sex. That is not in dispute. I'm not
02:44:17 sex. That is not in dispute. I'm not disputing there was some agent of penetrative sex. But as I recall, there was a moment where my had said to me that the intercourse had become intense and so therefore obviously and forgive
02:44:30 and so therefore obviously and forgive me I've then withdrawn and then the sex has been concluded by other means. So, you're disputing that you actually came inside her? Yes.
02:44:47 Is that likely given your obvious, clearly stated desire to come inside her? As I've said to you, if she I've
02:44:58 her? As I've said to you, if she I've explained to you and told you my recollections to what happened, it is clearly different from what you've said to that provided by Maya. Would you have been very disappointed not to have been able to do that? Isn't
02:45:10 not to have been able to do that? Isn't that more realistic? There is. No, there is no hesit. There is no hesitation on my part. No, you had been building up to have sex
02:45:23 you had been building up to have sex with Maya again since you no first contacted her again in 2014, hadn't you? I've explained to you my recollection of that event. Do not dispute that I had
02:45:35 that event. Do not dispute that I had sex with Maya. We we are clearly in dispute in terms of what happened.
02:45:44 Mr. Hastings, is it right that you didn't care enough about Maya to stop ejaculating inside her? No.
02:45:56 Are you saying that she's lying? I'm saying that our recollections clearly differ.
02:46:04 Do you recall being sent an email on the 9th of February, 2015 about her having to go to the GP for the morning after pill?
02:46:12 pill? You have the email? Undoubtedly. We do. It's at page 109 of exhibit uh UCPI 38191,
02:46:22 38191, please.
02:46:38 I'll give you a moment to refresh your memory about that.
02:46:49 Okay. In
02:46:50 In paragraph two, and this is sent in the afternoon of the the day after I think you left first thing in the morning. Is that right? I don't recall that being the case.
02:47:05 Do you accept what she puts in the first paragraph though that she woke up around 10 to get to the GP? I accept that. That's what she's read. Yes.
02:47:13 Yes. And you'd already left by that point. Is that
02:47:15 that not there? And she tells you in the second paragraph that she had to go to the GP. Nothing serious. Had to get an emergency pill because although I'll have your
02:47:26 pill because although I'll have your babies, it won't be that soon. And she talked about having taken contraceptives over the years and why that wouldn't have been sufficient precaution.
02:47:37 precaution. uh uh last night she said, "But it means next time I see you within this month, you may have to bring, as you once told me, a Jimmy
02:47:49 bring, as you once told me, a Jimmy hat."
02:47:51 hat." Jimmy hat being referenced to a condom. Is that right? Yes.
02:47:54 Yes. And had you used a condom with her previously? I said no. Is it likely that you probably did given that there's reference to a Jimmy hat here?
02:48:05 here? No.
02:48:10 Is it like sorry I think it's worth pointing out here just to be clear that Maya going as described here from morning after pill would make sense in the context of
02:48:22 would make sense in the context of having unprotected sex but then that doesn't say that the I ejaculated in her that is simply a woman being responsible in her mind of having
02:48:34 being responsible in her mind of having had unprotected X. Her evidence is that she went to the GP the following day to get the morning after pill because you had ejaculated inside her.
02:48:45 inside her. And as I've said, none. Is it likely that her version of events is correct given what she's emailing you about the following day? None.
02:48:57 None. Is it right that she didn't know anything about uh what you now say is having had a basectomy and so she thought genuinely that she could become
02:49:08 thought genuinely that she could become pregnant by what happened the night before?
02:49:11 before? A woman potentially can become pregnant without necessarily having had to have a man ejaculator. her account is that you had there. And I've said to you repeatedly when you
02:49:22 And I've said to you repeatedly when you put the question to me, no.
02:49:34 In terms of the vasectomy, can I ask you a couple of questions about that? And I'm not doing this to embarrass you, Mr. Hastings. I'm asking you because it's relevant to getting to the truth of this
02:49:45 relevant to getting to the truth of this inquiry.
02:49:47 inquiry. Um, you said initially in your evidence
02:49:56 that you didn't discuss contraception with Maya. Um, and I'm just trying to get the reference for you, the the paragraph number. Um, and
02:50:08 you, the the paragraph number. Um, and that in in fact you understood her to be on the contraceptive pill. Is that right?
02:50:14 right? I believe so. There would be no reason to put that in your witness statement, would there? Unless unless you thought that contraception was of an issue in
02:50:28 contraception was of an issue in understanding her to be on the contra contraceptive pill was relevant to your understanding. No.
02:50:35 No. So that we're clear, the point is that you gave that evidence the inquiry. You understood her to be on the contraceptive pill. I assumed her to be assumed her to be on the pill and that
02:50:49 assumed her to be on the pill and that was the form of contraception that was uh relevant to your sex sex life with Maya.
02:50:56 Maya. Now, as far as I can recall, as I said, as I've said in my statement, I don't recall us having specific conversations about this. In your evidence to this inquiry orally this week, you've told us that you'd had
02:51:08 this week, you've told us that you'd had a basectomy.
02:51:11 Which one is true? I appreciate both can be true, but were you misleading the inquiry when you said the
02:51:23 the inquiry when you said the contraception we had in our relationship was Maya being on the pill? My assumption was that Ma was on the pill
02:51:31 pill and
02:51:32 and it never came up as a discussion. That's what my recollection is. Relaying that to the inquiry. Were you misleading the inquiry? No.
02:51:40 No. Why didn't you say I'd had a vasectomy and there's no issue about when it when you asked me question it was relevant that's when I've made it clear that I had a vasectomy
02:51:52 clear that I had a vasectomy can we establish when the vasectomy was was it preds yes
02:52:00 is there any sense that the vasectomy you had a vasectomy because you were joining the SDS and that was a precaution that you were taking knowing that there was a risk that you involved in sexual relationships.
02:52:22 It doesn't make sense, does it, as to why you would tell the inquiry one thing in your witness statement and say another thing in your oral evidence to the inquiry.
02:52:38 Forgive me. Perhaps I'm stupid, but I'm missing the point you're trying to make. I have not lied to the inquiry.
02:52:48 There wouldn't have been a point to put in your witness statement that Maya was on the contraceptive pill. If in fact that wasn't there was no need for that in terms of contraception. My assumption was that Mai was on the
02:53:00 My assumption was that Mai was on the pill.
02:53:13 Are you lying about having a vasectomy because of the allegations that have been made to you by Maya in the course of this inquiry? No.
02:53:25 following this email that Maya wrote to you on the 9th of February talking about meeting up again. You didn't respond to her. I think
02:53:37 You didn't respond to her. I think that's the last email that we have uh between the two of you.
02:53:46 Sorry, at at this time in 2015.
02:53:54 Did you not respond to this this email that she sent to you on the 9th of February?
02:53:59 February? I would say to you again if there's a is there a record of a reply?
02:54:05 The next email that we have from you
02:54:11 is the 2nd of June 2016.
02:54:32 Did you disappear from her life again? Yes.
02:54:38 Yes. Why was that?
02:54:43 I recall at the time I made a conscious decision that I could not obviously provide Maya with the things that I felt she deserved. I also have a distinct memory of Maya working
02:54:54 memory of Maya working on something either relating to a PhD or something to be published. And I had a moment where I thought I can't stay with her because I can't give her what she would need.
02:55:07 would need. Had you got what you needed, which was sex with Maya again and then you were off.
02:55:12 off. If that was the case, then surely I would have gone back and continued to have sex with her. No.
02:55:20 I had considered sitting down with Myra and telling her who I really was. Did you consider at all saying to Maya, "Don't worry about after pill. I've had
02:55:31 "Don't worry about after pill. I've had a basectomy." No.
02:55:34 No. Why not?
02:55:35 Why not? I was clearly being cruel and selfish.
02:55:45 Did you recognize that that could cause her some anxiety given the emails that we'd seen back in 2007 in March when she thought that she had a pregnancy scare at the time? No.
02:56:00 Is it fair to say that you didn't give Maya's well-being any consideration at this stage? Why am I withdrawing from her life at that point? I felt that I was doing the right thing for Maya.
02:56:12 Um, in on 12th March 2015, Theresa May announced the establishment of the UCPI is a judgeled statutory inquiry and on the 16th of July 2015, the terms of
02:56:25 the 16th of July 2015, the terms of reference were announced. You were aware of those two things, were you? I would have been aware of the fact there was an inquiry. And in 2016, you send Maya two cryptic
02:56:36 And in 2016, you send Maya two cryptic messages. the first one on the 2nd of June 2016. Um, that's the message we've just looked at. Pageund 10, please.
02:56:57 Up at the top of the page. Yeah.
02:56:59 Yeah. And significantly it appears you say, "I remembered the clouds and the storm and they are coming." Yes, they are coming. What are you referring to in that message?
02:57:09 message? To presumably to the inquiry.
02:57:14 Why are you bothering Maya with that? Yes. No, the email is because I think I saw her at a train station and I hesitate as to whether I should speak to her or not, but I didn't. I decided it
02:57:26 her or not, but I didn't. I decided it would be better again for me to withdraw, not to not to speak to her directly and I carried on. But then you email her. So, whilst you say it's better for her well-being that you're out of her life, why have you
02:57:37 you're out of her life, why have you decided to email her? Because I'd seen her. I obviously wanted to speak to her. When I saw her, I wanted to speak to her, but I didn't.
02:57:47 Can we move to pageuh 111, please?
02:58:00 You send another message on the 18th of November 2016.
02:58:33 Sorry about that.
02:58:59 Oh, yes. It's at the bottom. Sorry. Now got that. It's at the bottom of page 111 down at the bottom. 18th of November, 2016.
02:59:10 2016. From your Hotmail address. I've replied to you and you have ignored me. There was no end song, just me waiting for the truth. Airong ships can be broken and sails can tear.
02:59:25 Do you recall sending that? No, but I clearly did.
02:59:37 Were you hoping to ensure that she was still thinking about you? No,
02:59:43 No, these two years later, two and a half years later, I'm not certain what the cause of that email was. I clearly hadn't forgotten about Maya.
02:59:55 In March 2019,
03:00:00 um Maya learned that you were a police spy
03:00:05 spy and uh
03:00:09 and uh in the summer of 2019, she had three instances of suicidal ideiation.
03:00:21 Did you ever consider the impact that you would have on Maya by this by my behavior? No, not in the way your behavior and reconting her.
03:00:32 behavior and reconting her. Not in the way that I should have done. And then leaving her and not contacting her, either blocking her, ignoring her emails.
03:00:41 emails. I had made a decision that I would stay out of her life. You you you say that, but then you keep reentering her life either by a man
03:00:52 a man who wants to be with someone
03:00:57 yet at the same time recognizes that he can't be with them.
03:01:03 Did you ever share images of Maya with other people, in particular with other police officers? No.
03:01:12 No. Did you ever share or discuss her messages with other people? Did you share any information at all about her with other people? Not that I recall. No.
03:01:27 Do you or as far as you know anyone else continue to spy on Maya through mobile devices or computers? No.
03:01:37 No. Were you on something called Signal in 20 and 21. I don't know what signal is. Signal, I think, is some form of uh chat
03:01:48 Signal, I think, is some form of uh chat forum or email system and it popped up to say that Robert Harrison is on signal.
03:01:56 signal. I don't recall that. No. Popped up for me or for Maya. A message popped up for Maya to indicate that you were active on that system. I don't recall ever being on signal. any
03:02:09 I don't recall ever being on signal. any other system where you've tried to either follow Mayer or uh make contact with MA since 200 uh 199 19 2016 sorry
03:02:21 with MA since 200 uh 199 19 2016 sorry not that I'm aware of not that I can recall
03:02:23 recall when you say not that you can recall can you give any clearer answer than that do you have anything that would indicate that I did indeed contact her we don't I'm simply asking you for your evidence
03:02:34 evidence so I have to say to the best of my recollection no I didn't I've tried to explain to you I had make a decision that I would have to not be with Maya
03:02:49 in terms of the impact that your treatment of her has had upon Maya. Do you recognize that she was absolutely distraught upon discovering you were a
03:03:01 distraught upon discovering you were a UCO?
03:03:02 UCO? Yes. Do you recognize that your treatment of her has had a significant impact on her mental health, her ability to work and study? I can't comment on that, but what I will
03:03:14 I can't comment on that, but what I will say is given my own experiences, of course, I would have sympathy for that.
03:03:21 that. This experience had a massive impact on her academic career which suffered enormously. Do you recognize that that is a consequence of your treatment of her?
03:03:32 consequence of your treatment of her? Possibly.
03:03:34 Possibly. You say possibly because you haven't seen that yourself. I say possibly because I I'm not aware. I'm not alert to the specific circumstances relating to that. But I accept I've made clear that there would have been an impact.
03:03:45 have been an impact. Given Maya's evidence to this inquiry, do you accept that her evidence about that would be true? I can say that the evidence that Maya has presented is the evidence that Ma
03:03:57 has presented is the evidence that Ma believes to be true because clearly we're not in accord with what we've said.
03:04:02 said. her faith and trust in the police and in general other people in her life and her ability to form friendships has really suffered. Do you recognize that?
03:04:14 suffered. Do you recognize that? I can absolutely understand why that might be the case. and the impact on the ability for her to have a children, a family of her own was impacted
03:04:28 family of her own was impacted through simply through being of a certain age, having broken up from a long-term partnership, through you re-entering her life back in 2014. Do you accept that? I can accept that there's a possibility
03:04:39 I can accept that there's a possibility that is the case. And that she reverted to drug use on and off because of the mental anguish anguish that you caused. Do you recognize that?
03:04:50 Do you recognize that? I accept that they may have been the case.
03:04:53 case. And all of that was an entirely predictable consequence of your behavior towards her. Do you accept that? I accept that I have behaved towards Maya exceedingly badly, for which again
03:05:05 Maya exceedingly badly, for which again I am happy to apologize as many times as possible, but I know there isn't an apology that I can give that would probably in any way make up for the way that I treated her.
03:05:18 Do you accept that you ran this risk with Maya's life and her well-being for your own sexual gratification? No.
03:05:28 No. And your own selfish desires? I've been selfish. Absolutely. I accept that.
03:05:35 that. And you had only regard to your own needs. No,
03:05:43 I didn't think enough about her.
03:05:54 Um,
03:05:57 so those are all the questions that I have in open. It may be that there are rule 10 questions that need to be put in open before we move into the private hearing. Yes. Um, in any event, our
03:06:12 hearing. Yes. Um, in any event, our hardworking short-terand writers deserve a break, as indeed does the witness. Um, are you likely to need quarter of an hour for the role 10 questions?
03:06:26 hour for the role 10 questions? Yes, I suspect so. Then we'll break for quarter of an hour. Thank you.
03:29:04 Mr. Hastings, can I clarify something you said in evidence about the attendance of Maya's rapist at Aif Chowry's sister's wedding,
03:29:18 at Aif Chowry's sister's wedding, please? Um, is it is it possible that in fact that wasn't a Tif Chowry's sister's wedding at which he uh uh presented, but
03:29:31 wedding at which he uh uh presented, but it was at a the Leadeds festival that Maya was at that uh we we went to in her evidence where she was she had attended a festival up in Leeds and she had told
03:29:44 a festival up in Leeds and she had told you in the email that the person that had raped her when she was had also been there. To the best of my recollection, it was a Tif's sister's wedding.
03:29:56 Tif's sister's wedding. Is it is it possible that you you're mistaken about that? And in fact, that that wasn't at that occasion. It is possible because after all, this is clearly something that Maya is going to know more about than I would.
03:30:08 to know more about than I would. Thank you. Um,
03:30:13 Um, can I ask you what it was about Helen Steel that you were aware of when you were in the SDS? You mentioned reference to Helen Steel when I asked you about the management uh
03:30:25 when I asked you about the management uh knowledge of previous uh sexual relationships of UCOs with women and you said that you knew something about that. Can I just ask you to explain a little bit more about what you knew, who told you and when?
03:30:45 Okay. Um, some of this might have been something that I've put together, but I have a definite recollection that HN53 at the time that I was in the office um, appeared to be spending time away from
03:30:56 appeared to be spending time away from the main office and possibly traveling abroad um, possibly believe involved in some kind of legal matter. And you understood that to be in relation to Helen Steel at the time, did
03:31:08 relation to Helen Steel at the time, did you?
03:31:09 you? Not precise. No, not precisely Helen Steel, but it was clear that there was something going on. And did you realize that it was to do with a sexual relationship that one of the UCOs had had at the time? No, because they obviously
03:31:21 at the time? No, because they obviously didn't speak openly about what the trips were concerning, but perhaps with the information that became available to me afterwards. With hindsight, you put two and two together and realized and realize that this was obviously linking to what gone on there.
03:31:40 Can I ask you whether your Boogie Boy identity and in particular the Boogie riseup.net pass uh uh uh email address and password
03:31:54 pass uh uh uh email address and password were given to managers of the SDS. Certainly the not the password I have a recollection of certainly at the end of the deployment we were asked to provide to the office details of the emails that
03:32:05 to the office details of the emails that we would have used and when you say details it's simply the address
03:32:10 address I believe it would have been the address and what was the purpose of that we were asked to supply them along with at the same time the phones everything else that we had and was it your understanding that uh
03:32:22 and was it your understanding that uh they would be used further? No, I had no real understanding as to what they'd be used for. It was just the fact they were requested of us and I certainly provided them.
03:32:32 them. When you gave the Boogie riseup.net um address, did you give your other addresses as well? All the ones that I would have been asked for? Yes.
03:32:43 asked for? Yes. Uh did management ask you how they had been used throughout the course of your deployment? No.
03:32:49 No. Can I ask you in particular about your posts on urban 75? Um, and this is particularly in relation to uh evidence that has been submitted
03:33:01 to uh evidence that has been submitted to the inquiry by Ben Ley, one of the core participants, and it's in relation to what he sets out at 4.2 of his uh witness statement.
03:33:13 of his uh witness statement. Sir, can I just take one moment? Um, if you'll excuse me.
03:34:27 Um, is it right that on Urban 75 you
03:34:33 you in in your uh persona as uh Rob Harrison, you made it quite clear in your posts that you're a single man and that you
03:34:46 that you're a single man and that you were desperately seeking uh uh sexual relationships with people through your posts. Not that I recall.
03:35:12 Do you recall anything about saying that uh you would like to be Well, I think that's probably as far as I can take it in open evidence.
03:35:33 Sir, those are all the questions that I have in relation to that. Yes.
03:35:38 Yes. Thank you. Those are all the rule 10 questions. Those are all the rule 10 questions. Thank you. Is there any open re-examination? There's no open re-examination. Thank you, sir.
03:35:49 you, sir. And we are now going to go into a short close session, but the open proceedings will be concluded until we resume evidential hearings uh in June. If I get
03:36:00 evidential hearings uh in June. If I get my diary out, I can give the correct date in June.
03:36:06 June the 15th.
03:36:10 I'll rise to enable the um room to be set up for a private hearing.