The witness, Robert Harrison (HN18), is questioned about the early stages of his relationship with Maya, focusing on allegations of inappropriate sexual comments, the nature of their first sexual encounter, and the power dynamics involved. The session also addresses a missing intelligence report regarding Maya and the witness's awareness of her vulnerability and past trauma.
00:32:33 has given evidence that you'd often visit ative Chowry at his home and pass by her house and flirt with her. Is that
00:32:44 by her house and flirt with her. Is that a fair characterization of what was happening in those early days? No. except that I very often visited um the croc to see a teeth um and I as I say I met my recollection the first time
00:32:57 say I met my recollection the first time when she was painting in the kitchen I certainly didn't flirt with her is that when she was stood on her kitchen counter and you walked by the window and said nice bum
00:33:09 window and said nice bum I didn't say that is that the sort of uh sexual uh comment that you would make to Maya No.
00:33:20 No. Uh, she has a clear recollection of that. Did you say something along those lines?
00:33:25 lines? Possibly, but I wouldn't have said anything like that to Maya. That would not be the sort of thing I would do. Okay. Did you comment on her bum? Possibly.
00:33:34 Possibly. And what do you think you might have said, if not nice, bum? What was the comment you made? I can't recall. She says that she didn't really know what to make of it and that nobody had
00:33:46 what to make of it and that nobody had been that forward with her before and in fact it made her feel quite uncomfortable at the time. Um, do you recognize that it might make a a a young
00:33:57 recognize that it might make a a a young woman feel uncomfortable? I can't speak to Mayer's interpretation of of how that that may or may not have impacted upon her, particularly as I don't recall actually saying that to her. Did you have a sense at the time that making uh sexual references to a
00:34:11 that making uh sexual references to a person's body, young woman's body, might make them feel uncomfortable? This is in dispute. I don't again I don't recall saying this to so therefore I can't comment any further on that. My understanding of your evidence is
00:34:22 My understanding of your evidence is that you did comment on her bomb. Well, if if if it's in the evidence and I've said I did, then I did. I don't recall this time. Okay. To to be clear, when you saw her
00:34:33 Okay. To to be clear, when you saw her standing on the counter uh painting her kitchen, did you comment on her bum? I would put Okay. Yes. Okay. And do you recognize that that
00:34:44 Okay. And do you recognize that that might be something that makes a young woman feel uncomfortable potentially? What response did you get from Maya? As I recall, we spoke briefly. A teeth was present and I think I then went with
00:34:57 was present and I think I then went with the teeth into the cooperative where he lived.
00:35:01 lived. Um,
00:35:04 Um, do you accept that commenting on someone's bum is a sexual comment? Not necessarily. No. Did you intend it to be seen as sexually flirtatious? If I'd said it, and I've admitted I said
00:35:15 If I'd said it, and I've admitted I said it, no, I would not have intended necessarily to be intended as a sexual comment. Okay. What would you have What were your intentions then? I'm not sure I would have had an intention. It would purely have been an observation.
00:35:26 observation. Did your interactions with Maya become increasingly flirtatious over those early months of 2006? I believe so. And was your intention to have a sexual
00:35:39 And was your intention to have a sexual relationship with her? No.
00:35:43 No. She recalls that you were quite forward in your approach, that you would often knock on her door if was not in and ask where was Aif and if when he returned to
00:35:55 where was Aif and if when he returned to deliver a message on your behalf. That's quite possible. Um, was there actually any need for that? Could you have called a Tif on a mobile phone to find out where he was?
00:36:06 mobile phone to find out where he was? Possibly. But if I'm in the environment, then I would have knocked on the door to see if she was in and if she knew where he was.
00:36:12 he was. Was it an excuse to see Maya and engage with her?
00:36:15 with her? Not that I recall. No. Were you sexually attracted to Maya at the time?
00:36:20 the time? Not initially. No. Um, were you purposefully looking for a sexual partner as part of your cover operation at the time? Um this is just after we heard the
00:36:33 Um this is just after we heard the evidence yesterday about you being in that uh uh general meeting in back office. You'd raised the issue about people making sexual advances towards you and that you you were struggling
00:36:44 you and that you you were struggling with that. Is that fair enough? There there were certainly issues with that as I explained yesterday. Um, was
00:36:53 Um, was your engagement with Maya an attempt to try and build a sexual relationship with someone for any operational purpose? Not intentionally. No.
00:37:06 Not intentionally. No. And when you say that, what what do you mean?
00:37:09 mean? I didn't when I met Maya, my intention, not intention, but the purpose of the relationship as it developed was not for her to provide cover to me, if that's what you're suggesting. Um, was your intention uh purely for
00:37:22 Um, was your intention uh purely for your own uh sexual interest? No, there was no initial intention. The relationship that as I see that developed between my and I was very much something that developed organically.
00:37:34 something that developed organically. Uh, did your sexual attraction for Maya develop quite quickly on your part? I would certainly say that my impression would be that she perhaps was not as enamored of me as perhaps I was of her.
00:37:47 enamored of me as perhaps I was of her. And what gave you that impression? Just the fact that I I found her engaging
00:37:52 engaging or rather I would say I have a distinct recollection of a conversation with her in at the cooperative and as a result of that conversation I think afterwards spent the afternoon speaking. I think perhaps that one was
00:38:05 speaking. I think perhaps that one was perhaps when I had an inkling that perhaps we liked each other in some way. Okay. Um she she recalls an occasion where she invited you in for tea. Yeah. And and is that the occasion
00:38:16 Yeah. And and is that the occasion you're talking about when you had a chat about past relationships? I don't recall the nature of what we spoke about, but that may have been that occasion when I spoke with her. Yes. Okay.
00:38:25 Okay. She remembers inviting you in for tea, not because she was attracted to you, but because that was the type of person she was. She was friendly, polite, hospitable, and that was part of her culture to to invite people in.
00:38:37 culture to to invite people in. I would certainly describe Maya as being those things. And did you take advantage of her hospitality and kind nature?
00:38:48 hospitality and kind nature? None.
00:38:50 None. When you uh went in, sat for tea and had a conversation with her, do you recall talking about a past boyfriend of hers? No.
00:39:00 No. Did she tell you that um she'd only had one previous relationship? I don't recall being told that. Do you recall asking her about
00:39:11 Do you recall asking her about uh uh her love life, whether she'd consider dating an older man? No.
00:39:17 No. Do you cons Did you ask her whether she'd consider dating someone white? No.
00:39:23 No. She has a clear recollection of those questions being asked and when she said, "Well, um, yes, my past boyfriend was white." You cheered. I would do no such thing.
00:39:34 I would do no such thing. Are you saying that her recollection is mistaken or is she lying about this? You would have to ask Maya that question.
00:39:45 question. Her her evidence is that she has clear recollection. My then my response to you then is that our recollection obviously differs quite significantly.
00:39:55 Is it fair to say that from this early meeting you knew that she was inexperienced in sex and relationships? No.
00:40:05 No. What impression did you have of Maya from that early stage? Just of an incredibly sweet individual.
00:40:15 Um,
00:40:18 can we go please to Meer's witness statement?
00:40:26 This is uh uh UCPI 38194 page six please
00:40:36 paragraph 3.6
00:40:44 um we can see about halfway down that uh 3.6 six paragraph that starts on the previous page.
00:40:52 Um, at the Electra Works event now, uh, he took my hands, well, later during
00:41:03 uh, he took my hands, well, later during the event, Robert Hastings attempted to kiss me and he took my hands and walked backwards towards a wall so that his back was pressed up against the wall. He then crouched down in a slight squat and
00:41:15 then crouched down in a slight squat and pulled me closer so that the we were almost face to face before saying something along the lines of, "So you can kiss me now." Do you remember that happening at the
00:41:26 Do you remember that happening at the Electra works event in the May? No.
00:41:31 No. Do you recall attempting to kiss Maya at that event? No.
00:41:39 Do you recall saying anything to her along the lines of so you can kiss me now?
00:41:43 now? No, I wouldn't say anything like that and I wouldn't behave in that manner. Um,
00:41:51 Um, she says that she was quite taken aback by that approach by you and the the phrase, "So you can kiss me now," implied that she was the one making an
00:42:04 implied that she was the one making an advance when in fact that just was not true.
00:42:08 true. Do you recall you having any physical contact with Maya at the Electra Works event?
00:42:14 event? No. As I recall, my purpose being at Electro Works I think would have been to collect some amplification materials that were required and Meer had arranged that and I think I'd spent the day prior
00:42:26 that and I think I'd spent the day prior to or on the day waiting to collect that equipment to then take it to the venue. And you were DJing at the venue. I wasn't DJing in terms of headlining main event. I was just there to I did a
00:42:37 main event. I was just there to I did a warm-up set. You traveled there with Maya that event. Is that right? I believe so. Um, and did you have any further interaction with Maya at the event?
00:42:50 interaction with Maya at the event? Oh, I can't say. What I would have said to you was a busy night. I was there just providing moral support to um a Tif for the event. So, you don't recall at all interacting
00:43:02 So, you don't recall at all interacting with Maya? Other than the fact that if we may have spent the earlier part of the day together because I'd collected some equipment.
00:43:11 During the early part of the day, had you made any physical advance towards Maya?
00:43:15 Maya? No. Why would I? Um,
00:43:19 Um, were you physically attracted to Maya? Certainly there was an attraction on I would I can only speak for myself, but certainly there's an attraction towards her. Yes.
00:43:27 her. Yes. Would that be a reason for you to make a a physical advance towards her? No.
00:43:31 No. Would you have acted on that sexual attraction towards her? Not in the way described there. No. Um when you say not in that way because my recollection anyway
00:43:42 anyway then my recollection of my the start the first sexual interaction with my would be that it was very very different. Okay.
00:43:49 Okay. Did that occur at this event? No.
00:43:52 No. Later
00:43:53 Later I don't believe so. No. She says that uh she was flattered about the advance that you made towards her, but embarrassed and insulted by the
00:44:04 but embarrassed and insulted by the implication that she intended to kiss you. She it was not expected. She was panicked and she refused and she didn't feel comfortable kissing in public. Um
00:44:18 in public. Um are you saying that she's mistaken or lying about this particular event that has stuck? So clearly in her mind, I'm saying I have no recollection of any of this happening whatsoever.
00:44:32 Do you accept that it may have happened, but it was something that was so striking for her that she recalls it very clearly, whereas for you, this
00:44:43 very clearly, whereas for you, this wasn't something so out of the ordinary and so is not something that you've remembered? No.
00:44:50 No. And why do you say that? I'll make this clear then. I have no recollection to my mind this did not happen. I would not have behaved in this way.
00:45:09 Can we move to the raw report about the Electra works event please? It's MPS 0065807.
00:45:23 is behind tab B66 of bundle three. Sir,
00:45:30 and if we can go on to page two. So again, these are reports that we understand are drafted by you before being sent to the back office and then
00:45:41 being sent to the back office and then they're made up into the sanitized reports.
00:45:47 And we can see, sorry, just to put it in context, if we go back to page one at the bottom, uh, in bold, the bottom words in bold about twothirds of the way
00:46:00 words in bold about twothirds of the way down the page, the rage against the occupation fundraiser was held at Electra work on the 19th of May 2006.
00:46:10 And it goes into a little bit of detail about that. And on page two then the next report in bold
00:46:22 report in bold paragraphs two and three relate to Maya.
00:46:27 We can see that Maya is a close associate of the activist Ative Chowry and you've noted where she lives and that she claims to be 26 years of
00:46:38 and that she claims to be 26 years of age. Uh you've noted where she was born and you've noted that she holds a current uh passport with the detail of that passport.
00:46:50 with the detail of that passport. How did you come to be aware of that information? Is that something you discussed with Maya? Possibly.
00:46:56 Possibly. And had you discussed that um at the time of the electoral works event? I'm not I'm not sure. Why did you feel that was important to report about MER? As I've said previously in relation to people that I
00:47:08 previously in relation to people that I would have reported on um she clearly lived the same housing cooperative as a TE. So therefore she was in that environ so I would have reported on her and she was a friend of TES as well.
00:47:19 was a friend of TES as well. Um she wasn't an activist was she? I don't believe so. Okay. She wasn't a member of ISM London ISM
00:47:25 ISM in so far as ISM didn't have an actual membership. No. Um
00:47:31 Um what did you mean by a close associate? You just mean a friend and neighbor? a friend and neighbor perhaps. Why term it close associate? Well, it was fairly clear that um Maya
00:47:43 Well, it was fairly clear that um Maya and Aith I suspect had known each other for quite some time and they clearly were very friendly with each other had got on.
00:47:51 got on. Um, Maya had um would well how would you describe Maya's uh skin color?
00:48:10 That question seems absurd. Forgive me. Um,
00:48:15 light brown. Would you say that um you're noting the place where she was born and the passport because she was not white
00:48:27 passport because she was not white British?
00:48:30 British? No. I would have no. Is there any racial profiling going on here?
00:48:34 here? No.
00:48:38 Out of this report, this uh composite raw reporting, there are 11 uh uh sorry 12 reports that
00:48:49 there are 11 uh uh sorry 12 reports that are made out of this uh composite document
00:48:53 document but only 11 sanitized reports have been disclosed to the inquiring. And the reason I note that is because the one report out of all of these that are on
00:49:05 report out of all of these that are on this document is the one relating to MER.
00:49:10 MER. So that um the electoral works uh report as I noted before was um 3288. Yeah.
00:49:20 Yeah. And that's why I made reference to the um the number of the report. They're normally uh numbered sequentially. And out of the sequence, the number that is
00:49:31 out of the sequence, the number that is missing is 3289, which would be the report that would be made out of the the if it follows the sequence that you've got here.
00:49:40 got here. Exactly.
00:49:42 Exactly. We have searched for it, but it is this Maya report, these two paragraphs here relating to Maya that have not appeared on any report. And
00:49:55 have not appeared on any report. And that report seems to have been made. It would have been 3289. Can you help us with why the Maya report, the one report that relates to Maya is missing?
00:50:07 Maya is missing? I don't know. Did you talk to back office about any relationship with Maya? Never.
00:50:14 Never. Was there any concern by back office that women who had been deceived into a relationship should not be reported on?
00:50:25 should not be reported on? Not as far as I'm aware. Was there any destruction uh of report that related to women who had been deceived into a sexual relationship by SDSUs?
00:50:36 sexual relationship by SDSUs? I wouldn't be able to comment as far as you're aware. Okay. Can you help us at all with what might have happened to this report? I have no idea.
00:50:50 Can you help us with who was the sergeant writing up your reports at this time?
00:50:56 time? carefully in terms of names. Would it have been Gilbertson or HM30? I'm not sure that Gilbertson was still on the unit at this time.
00:51:14 He was there until July 2006. Gilbertson was there till July 2006, you say?
00:51:20 say? Yeah. So if that's the case that it's possible if it's that's within that time frame. Other than that I can only think of
00:51:28 of perhaps HN30 H yeah 30 perhaps. I don't know if um HN24 potentially. Okay. But you you you're not too sure
00:51:39 Okay. But you you you're not too sure who which one of the DS's was writing in terms of once the intelligence had been submitted in terms of the actual processing onto report. No.
00:51:47 No. Okay.
00:51:50 In terms of the start of this, that can come down now. Thank you. In terms of the start of the sexual relationship, do you recall that about two weeks after
00:52:01 do you recall that about two weeks after the Electra works fundraiser, you texted Maya
00:52:06 Maya to say uh sorry, she texted you to say thank you for your help at the event. Do you recall that? I don't recall that. No. Um, she has a clear recollection that
00:52:19 Um, she has a clear recollection that your response to that text was, "Why don't you come on over so you can thank me properly?"
00:52:27 Do you accept that you wrote that? No.
00:52:29 No. Back to her in response. Um,
00:52:35 Um, do you recall her attending at your flat?
00:52:38 flat? Yes.
00:52:39 Yes. And would that have been about two weeks after the event? I believe so. Yes. And how did she come to be at your flat? I can't recall. Had you invited her?
00:52:51 Had you invited her? Possibly.
00:52:52 Possibly. Is it possible that you had said something along the lines of come on over so you can thank me properly? It's possible that I invited her to come over and then she would have then chose
00:53:03 over and then she would have then chose whether or not yes or no to come over. And why did you invite her to your flat? Why not? We obviously got on. Do you accept that she'd uh texted you to say
00:53:14 accept that she'd uh texted you to say thanks for your help at the event? I don't recall receiving that text. Do you recall anything about the arrangements of her coming over to your uh flat?
00:53:22 uh flat? Not particularly no
00:53:26 when she came over. Was it about 4:00 in the afternoon? I can't recall.
00:53:34 Um can you recall what happened when she attended at your flat?
00:53:42 As far as I can recall, I think she may have came over and I think she may have stayed the night.
00:53:49 Do you recall what happened when she first arrived? No.
00:53:54 No. She recalls that you made yourself a drink and perhaps offered her an orange juice or something like that. Would that seem normal? Would that seem I think if someone comes in then yes,
00:54:05 I think if someone comes in then yes, it's it would be good manners. And very quickly within 15 20 minutes you're moving to the bedroom. Do you recall that?
00:54:13 that? No, I don't. Um, did sex take place fairly quickly when she attended at your flat? I can recall that we had sex. Yes.
00:54:24 I can recall that we had sex. Yes. And what had you done prior to that in in the flat? I can't recall. Was there any um chat, sitting down, having a meal, anything like that?
00:54:35 having a meal, anything like that? I can't recall. Is it is it reasonable then given that she's got a clear memory of this that it probably did happen that very quickly
00:54:46 probably did happen that very quickly there was movement to the bedroom led by you?
00:54:48 you? Poss. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I'm admitting is that I I've got no pro problem in saying that we'd likely had sex that that that night.
00:55:00 had sex that that that night. Was the problem with it was led by you? The fact that you appear to be suggesting in some way that it was led by me,
00:55:07 by me, I I would question that. The indication, the impression I have is that you're suggesting in some way that I I took her to the bedroom in some way. That's her recollection. Did that you
00:55:18 That's her recollection. Did that you initiated sex? I would have seen it rather as being something that that was involved two people.
00:55:28 Given that it's your flat, you've invited her around. Does it seem reasonable that in fact it was you that led the way to the bedroom? Not necessarily. No.
00:55:40 Not necessarily. No. Um she has a clear recollection that in fact it all moved very quickly. She was expecting that maybe something would happen between you but there would be bit more of a courtship, some dating,
00:55:53 bit more of a courtship, some dating, there may be a bit of kissing but not uh sex.
00:55:57 sex. How does that sit with your recollection of events? I can't speak to that. Um,
00:56:06 Um, did you make the first move towards Maya physically? I can't recall.
00:56:14 Given that she has a clear recollection, do you accept that you probably did? No.
00:56:19 No. Why not?
00:56:20 Why not? Because I can't recall the circumstances. You have got two individuals there, both of whom have agency.
00:56:28 Did this event not stand out in your mind as quite an exceptional event?
00:56:35 It's now 2026, so perhaps it's would be understandable that I would not necessarily remember everything from that time. She has a vivid recollection because she
00:56:48 She has a vivid recollection because she says that sex to her was something quite sacred. you give your body to somebody else and it meant something very deep and and and meaningful to her. Did it not have that same sense for you?
00:57:02 not have that same sense for you? I always say to you that I was obviously deeply I was attracted to mine. No doubt that's obviously why we're having sex. Was it for you more of a a physical uh
00:57:14 Was it for you more of a a physical uh uh attraction? Something that can be done but not have much meaning?
00:57:23 No.
00:57:27 Um, did you expect sex when she attended at the flat? No, I would not have had any such expectation.
00:57:42 following sex
00:57:50 Was this the Sorry. Was this the first time you'd had sex undercover in your cover identity? Yes.
00:57:58 Yes. Um, in that regard, was it a a significant event for you? I think having sex with Maya was a significant event for me. Um, obviously you had a partner back
00:58:11 Um, obviously you had a partner back home. We've heard about um your family life. Did this come as something that uh played quite heavily on your uh uh thinking at the
00:58:25 heavily on your uh uh thinking at the time? Were you were you were you thinking about your wife back at home, your family, and whether this should be something that you should be doing? Perhaps not as much as I should have done.
00:58:34 done. Did it weigh on your mind much at all? Certainly. As time has gone on, yes, of course it did, but not at the time. As I said, not perhaps as much as it should have done.
00:58:46 should have done. Um
00:58:48 Um after sex, we understand that um you drove her home about 5:00 in the afternoon. Would that be fair according to your recollection? Again, I can't really recall the details.
00:58:59 details. Okay. Is it right to say though that she didn't stay over at your house? She didn't spend the night. She spent about an hour or so there. I can't recall. And during uh the your conversations
00:59:11 And during uh the your conversations after uh the event, did you recall her saying that um she'd only had one previous boyfriend? She wasn't sure whether she wanted a serious relationship or not?
00:59:22 relationship or not? No.
00:59:23 No. Do you recall her suggesting that maybe you should be both open to seeing other people before you decide whether to become a couple? No.
00:59:33 No. Um,
00:59:35 Um, do you accept that that may well have happened? It's just that your memories faded.
00:59:41 faded. I don't know. She has a very clear recollection of it. And she says that she recalls you becoming angry and saying that you don't like to be shared. Is that the sort of
00:59:52 like to be shared. Is that the sort of thing that you would have said to her? I don't recall saying that. No. Is it the type of thing that you might have said to her? I don't think so. No. Did you feel a sense of jealousy or
01:00:04 Did you feel a sense of jealousy or ownership over Maya having had sex with her?
01:00:06 her? No.
01:00:08 No. Um,
01:00:11 Um, was there any sense of disappointment or anger that actually she might not want to be part of a romantic couple following that uh sexual
01:00:23 romantic couple following that uh sexual instance?
01:00:25 instance? No.
01:00:28 No. Do you recall the conversation that you had after sex? Not particularly. No. Um, is it likely that you would become angry if you thought somebody might not
01:00:39 angry if you thought somebody might not want to be with you following that uh uh engagement? Not especially now. Were you genuinely uh
01:00:54 triggered by thoughts of infidelity? Was I generally or genuinely? Were you genuinely triggered emotionally by thoughts of somebody that
01:01:06 emotionally by thoughts of somebody that you were in a relationship with being uh unfaithful to you? I think I think as a general question, most individuals, male or female, perhaps would be bothered by that. Uh, did that play on your mind
01:01:18 Uh, did that play on your mind significantly? Somebody being unfaithful to you after having sex? So, we've had sex once and now you're suggesting that I'm immediately thinking of the fact that this person may have sex with other people. Yeah.
01:01:28 Yeah. Would not have occurred to me. I don't think
01:01:30 think it wouldn't have been something that you thought, "No, no, no. I've had sex with you now. I don't want you seeing anybody else."
01:01:36 else." The sex that we've had once that apparently is a sacred activity after two weeks for Right. Okay. No. Um, did you imply to her that well if
01:01:48 Um, did you imply to her that well if she wanted to see other people that that would be promiscuous of her? I don't recall doing so. Do you recall her being upset uh during
01:02:01 Do you recall her being upset uh during the drive home? As I've said to you, I don't recall the drive home. Did you you you don't recall driving her back to her to her flat?
01:02:12 back to her to her flat? No.
01:02:14 No. Um, she recalls that she told you about her Christian upbringing, her values, particularly honesty and openness. Do you recall having conversations about that, whether at that time or shortly
01:02:26 that, whether at that time or shortly thereafter? No.
01:02:29 No. Were you aware that she had a Christian upbringing? No.
01:02:33 No. At any point in the relationship? That's true. Yes.
01:02:40 Um, were you aware that she was quite wary of entering relationships too quickly because of a past trauma and in particular a rape? Not at that time. No.
01:02:52 Not at that time. No. She says that she told you at that time on that day that she'd been raped when she was just 19 years old and that's how she lost her virginity. Do you recall being told about that?
01:03:03 being told about that? I would have think given how traumatic that would be if someone had told me that I would have remembered it. She recalls uh saying that to you and she also uh showed to you the scar uh
01:03:16 she also uh showed to you the scar uh from self harming post that event. Do you remember her showing you a self harming scar? No, not at that time. Um
01:03:29 when do you say that she showed you that for the first time? Because I have a recollection that Maya did have scars, but I believe they were on her forearm. Those I do recall. Do you recall any on other parts of her
01:03:40 Do you recall any on other parts of her body?
01:03:40 body? No.
01:03:41 No. Do you recall any on her thighs? No.
01:03:45 No. Do you recall um letters in particular being carved into her body? No.
01:03:52 No. Um anything to do with ABC Sesame Street?
01:03:56 Street? No.
01:03:57 No. Does that ring any bells for you at all? No, but I'm aware that this is something that Maya mentions in an emails to later date.
01:04:05 date. Um
01:04:06 Um She has a clear recollection that she disclosed that to you following sex for the first time and that she disclosed to you that she'd selfharmed. She'd
01:04:17 you that she'd selfharmed. She'd selfharmed because um she had been accused of being impure after the rape. Do you remember that? No.
01:04:30 Do you recall saying something along the lines to her that um the world is the world is a really bad place and 99% of men have bad intentions but that you
01:04:43 men have bad intentions but that you were one of the 1% that was good implying that you were you know she was lucky to be with you. I don't recall saying that. No. Is that something that you
01:04:54 something that you uh believed that 99% of men are bad? You're in the 1% of good men? No.
01:05:04 Are you saying this is totally untrue? No, I'm saying and that she's she's lying about this. No, it's possible I may have said something like that, but I don't recall saying that.
01:05:16 saying that. And why would you say something like that to her if you didn't believe it? I have no idea. Would it be to um engender her
01:05:27 Would it be to um engender her confidence in you? Uh to make her feel that she was lucky to be with you and that she was safe with you? Maya was certainly safe with me. There's no doubt about that.
01:05:39 You were lying to her from the start, though, weren't you? because she didn't know who you were or what you were. I accept that. Yes. And in fact, were you taking advantage
01:05:52 And in fact, were you taking advantage of her naivity in having sex with her so quickly uh having only just come to know her?
01:06:00 her? No, I I believe we obviously had a genuine attraction for each other. And in fact, Maya wasn't safe with you because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
01:06:12 getting herself into. No,
01:06:14 No, you were an undercover officer that was going to be deployed for a number of years, but a relatively short time. There was no sense of this being a long committed relationship with her, was
01:06:26 committed relationship with her, was there?
01:06:26 there? That's not true.
01:06:30 Um, you say that's not true. Were you intending for this to be a long committed relationship with her? I can certainly recall later on at one stage I'd certainly consider whether I should tell her I was an undercover officer.
01:06:42 officer. You didn't, did you? No, not at that time. No. Um,
01:06:49 is it fair to say that it was easy to see from the outset that Maya was a very vulnerable young woman? No.
01:07:02 Uh
01:07:05 she says that very early on in the the relationship indeed as as by this time when you first have sex she's told you that she was brought up in a conservative community. She'd had a
01:07:18 conservative community. She'd had a Christian upbringing. She was a rape survivor. She was inexperienced in sexual and romantic relationships. And you knew all of that from an early stage. Are you saying that's not right?
01:07:29 stage. Are you saying that's not right? to my recollection some of some of those details that you described I'm aware of later on subsequently. Okay. How far during the course of the relationship do you say you became aware of that?
01:07:39 of that? I'm certainly aware of the fact that she had been raped or she stated that she'd been raped certainly before Chowry's sister's wedding. And the reason I mention that is because I recall there
01:07:51 mention that is because I recall there was an individual there I believe may have been the individual that Maya said had been responsible for the rape.
01:08:00 And what was your response when you heard about that? I was obviously very angry about it and quite protective towards her. Did you reconsider your relationship
01:08:12 Did you reconsider your relationship with Maya in light of that information? No.
01:08:16 No. Um you is it fair to say that you were in a position of power with Maya given your role given you knew who you were. You knew what the situation was. You
01:08:27 You knew what the situation was. You knew you had a a family in your background. You a you were an older man compared with a a a young inexperienced woman. Do you accept that you were in a
01:08:39 woman. Do you accept that you were in a position of power in relation to Maya? Except that the power dynamic would have been asymmetric at that time with you holding the cards. It would have been asymmetric.
01:08:50 It would have been asymmetric. Is that is that what you mean in your favor?
01:08:53 favor? No, I mean that power in a relationship can function in very different ways at different times with different between two individuals. Was there any period during the relationship with Maya that you felt she
01:09:04 relationship with Maya that you felt she had the power? I think particularly when the relationship was coming to an end. Um,
01:09:14 end. Um, yes.
01:09:18 In terms of the the helplessness that I felt, some of the things that Ma was describing to me by way of email.
01:09:27 Okay. We can come on to to to that later because we're going to look at some of the emails. But you're saying that when she's describing things to you, she's she's got power over you because of your
01:09:38 she's got power over you because of your your uh uh emotional reaction to that. No, I didn't say that. I said that power rel power relationships can change during the course of a relationship. They're not necessarily stable.
01:09:49 They're not necessarily stable. Um during this early stage of the relationship at least, do you accept that you held the power in the relationship? If you think of the relationship in power terms, then yes.
01:10:00 power terms, then yes. Um
01:10:02 Um coming back to this particular day following uh sex at your flat for the first time, you drove her home, she recalls, and you visited again her flat
01:10:14 recalls, and you visited again her flat late that night at 11:00 in the evening. Do you remember making that second visit to her flat later on? No.
01:10:24 No. If you had have attended her flat again at 11:00 that night, would you have been doing so expecting to have sex again? I wouldn't have attended with with an expectation of sex.
01:10:36 expectation of sex. She recollects that um you had arrived at about 11:00, but because her flatmate was there, you you spoke outside and you had a conversation. You don't have any
01:10:47 had a conversation. You don't have any memory of that at all? No.
01:10:51 No. Are you uh saying that your recollection might be faded because of time or you saying it didn't happen? No, I'm saying it's it's 2026. This this may have happened a long time ago.
01:11:05 Um ative Chowry has given evidence to this inquiry, both written and oral. at um paragraph 3.13 of his witness
01:11:17 at um paragraph 3.13 of his witness statement, he says that he knew Maya through mutual friends and when she became homeless, she moved into the housing cooperative. He says she was quite clearly vulnerable. She was young,
01:11:30 quite clearly vulnerable. She was young, very kind, she was an open person who would easily trust others. Would you say that's a fair description of Maya? I find that very strange that a chief
01:11:41 I find that very strange that a chief would say such a thing. Why is that? Because I certainly recall a conversation with the teeth at one stage where he seemed to indicate that perhaps Mai had come on to him at some stage in
01:11:52 Mai had come on to him at some stage in the past.
01:11:55 the past. Okay. Are you saying Aif said that to you?
01:11:57 you? I recall a conversation where indicated there had been some kind of interaction between him and Maya that may or may not have had a sexual
01:12:08 that may or may not have had a sexual connotation to it. That sounds very vague. Is that something that you're saying was clearly presented to you in a sexual context or not?
01:12:18 not? I'm saying that there was a conversation that took place between a chief and I where
01:12:23 where Mia was living certainly within the cooperative but the nature of their relationship was as I recall he indicated that there may have been some kind of sexual tension of some kind
01:12:36 some kind of sexual tension of some kind or some kind of incident involving him. Maya
01:12:40 Maya If he didn't express that in very clear terms, is that something that you may have read into that conversation? No.
01:12:48 No. Because you see sexual tension amongst people when perhaps it isn't there? No.
01:12:58 Do you recall at Chowry speaking to you about Maya being distressed about issues that did crop up in the relationship between you and Maya at different stages? for instance that that you were
01:13:09 stages? for instance that that you were accusing her of sleeping around that she was worried she had upset you and you weren't coming back on occasion. Do you remember at speaking to you about those issues?
01:13:20 issues? No.
01:13:23 No. Again, are you saying you don't recall or that it didn't happen? I don't recall.
01:13:29 Um, do you accept that Maya may well have spoken to Aif Chowry about those concerns that she had? I accept that Maya may have spoken to Aif. That would be natural given the close proximity in
01:13:41 be natural given the close proximity in which they lived. What about speaking to Aif about uh uh upsets in the relationship she had with you?
01:13:49 you? I can't speak to that.
01:13:54 Atif says that you were quite dismissive in your responses, making out that the issues were just in her head. Is that the sort of thing you would have done had he come to you? No. With that sort of thing? No.
01:14:07 No. Did Maya come to you with issues about the relationship? There were certainly problems with it. Yes.
01:14:14 Yes. Did you think it was all in her head? No. There were definitely problems with the relationship. Did you try and make her think that these issues were all in her head? No. Not deliberately. No.
01:14:26 No. Not deliberately. No. um when if did anybody else ever raise issues about uh the relationship between you and Maya to you as a friend? I recall there was there was an individual and I cannot recall her name
01:14:39 individual and I cannot recall her name um an Italian friend I believe an Italian female friend of mers who came to speak to me about my relationship with Maya
01:14:49 and what was your response to that? I listened to what she had to say. Did you dismiss it in any way saying, you know, it's these are issues she's making up?
01:14:59 up? No.
01:15:04 Was there an instance once where you woke in the night and told Maya that one day everyone would hate you? I don't recall that. Um, do you remember Atif Chowry asking
01:15:16 Um, do you remember Atif Chowry asking you about that? You denied that it ever happened.
01:15:18 happened. I don't recall the this event. Do you recall at Chowry telling you that Maya had told him that? No.
01:15:28 No. Um,
01:15:30 Um, were you trying to gaslight Maya in terms of the issues she raised with you about the relationship? Gaslight's quite obviously a modern
01:15:41 Gaslight's quite obviously a modern term, but no. And you understand what the term gaslighting means, and you're saying that that's not something you were trying to do. You weren't making her out
01:15:52 trying to do. You weren't making her out to be
01:15:52 to be making things up. It's all in her mind. No.
01:15:58 Um
01:16:02 ative Chowry at page three uh page nine of his witness statement. Um if I can bring it up, it's uh behind tab A1 of his bundle UCPI 38195,
01:16:16 UCPI 38195, page 9.
01:16:24 Um, page three, uh, paragraph 316, he makes reference to a couple of people, couple of women that you had had some kind of sexual, uh, flirtation with and that
01:16:37 sexual, uh, flirtation with and that you'd made advances uh, with another couple of women. The names under the privacy redactions are at item 29 of your uh, privacy schedule. Thank you.
01:16:56 Yeah. Looking at what he says about that the first person. Did you kiss that person?
01:17:14 It's not clear which one is which. Forgive me. Um the uh
01:17:24 cyclist if I can help you a moment
01:17:34 26. So item 29 it's the the that is the first person
01:17:47 So it's in order. So where we see paragraph 3.16, it's in order. The first and the second. Do you see that at item 29? Yes.
01:17:56 Yes. So in terms of the first person that's redacted,
01:17:59 redacted, can you say that um you you did kiss her?
01:18:02 her? Yes.
01:18:04 Yes. And was that an advance you had made towards her? No, that was a mutual situation. Sorry, forgive me. And how far in advance of your relationship with Maya had that
01:18:16 your relationship with Maya had that occurred?
01:18:18 occurred? I I can't recall except for that person. Got to word this because I'm You've got to be careful in terms of That's what I'm thinking of. That person
01:18:29 That's what I'm thinking of. That person was not at that time living at the collective where was living. This person was living with in address in another address in North London.
01:18:41 And did anything develop from that? No. Well, in terms of development, what do you mean? Did that lead to any other sexual interaction with her? There was an interaction with her that was sexual, but it was not did it
01:18:52 was sexual, but it was not did it involve intercourse. And is that something that you initiated? I think it was it was two of us.
01:19:01 Um, the second person, please. Yes.
01:19:06 Yes. Did you say that you wanted to start a relationship with her? No. Be that she was in a relationship with somebody else.
01:19:12 else. I referred to this individual yesterday. This was an individual with whom they'd been texting, flirting. Um, but it went no further. There was always some form of tension there.
01:19:23 of tension there. Obviously, I did find her attractive. There's no doubt about that. And there was flirting between us, but it never went to any form of physical contact. When you say tension, you're talking about sexual tension. We both I think it was fairly clear that
01:19:34 We both I think it was fairly clear that we both liked each other and at a T weddings sister's wedding um again she that individual came up and reiterated that there was that as she stated to me that this is this is not one way. This is this is two ways here.
01:19:46 is this is two ways here. She actually said those words to you saying
01:19:48 saying did you see a a sexual tension possibly where others didn't see a sexual tension that it wasn't reciprocated in the way that you recall? I can possible
01:20:00 that you recall? I can possible no I can only and someone as I say I I state in relation to the second person here that is something that she said to me at a chief charities sister's wedding is it right that she was in a
01:20:11 is it right that she was in a relationship at the time that you you were making advances towards her it it's right that she was in a relationship when she was flirting with him yes
01:20:21 him yes did do you have a sense that she was a bit confused about your intentions No.
01:20:30 So are you saying now that Chowry has got this wrong? Yes.
01:20:41 And why do you think that he has got that wrong? Because this description here isn't true.
01:20:50 true. I've explained to you the circumstances with both of those individuals. On the one hand, there there was a sexual interaction there. There was no sexual intercourse. I've covered this in my statement. In the latter case, there was
01:21:01 statement. In the latter case, there was the individual there where there was flirting between the two of us, but there was never any form of physical contact between us. And does that stick out clearly in your recollection? Those two individuals certainly do.
01:21:14 Those two individuals certainly do. What about the interactions you had with those two individuals? Well, the interaction with the second person, as I say, was was largely flirting um in person, sometimes by text. The other person obviously stands
01:21:27 text. The other person obviously stands out because uh there was sexual activity but as I said there was not intercourse. Um
01:21:35 Um were you ever concerned about being in uh
01:21:42 uh having some physical sexual contact with these two women in your undercover role? with the first person at the time. Um, I made my excuses and left and was
01:21:57 I made my excuses and left and was subsequently challenged by her friend who stated, "Why did you not simply knock on my door? I had stuff if you needed it."
01:22:08 door? I had stuff if you needed it." But that was accepted, was it? and and your uh withdrawal, your refusal to enter to go any further. That was just something that was accepted. Was it in relation to that particular person?
01:22:20 in relation to that particular person? As I recall, probably a short time afterwards, there was some form of demonstration, I think, where that person was present, a teeth was present, and I believe it became clear at that
01:22:31 and I believe it became clear at that point that there was some form of relationship between that person and a teeth.
01:22:38 teeth. And
01:22:40 And they both they were both very happy. They were clearly developing a relationship. For my recollection, I was quite happy. Is that the sort of thing that could
01:22:52 Is that the sort of thing that could have happened with Maya that it wouldn't go any further? I would I it would have been very difficult to say at the start.
01:23:04 very difficult to say at the start. But the responsibility was on you, wasn't it? It was your duty to say no. I think both parties in any kind of sexual dynamic have a responsibility and have the right to say no.
01:23:15 have the right to say no. But she wasn't an undercover officer. You were on duty. Is that right? That's true. Okay. So, you had a responsibility not to enter into a sexual relationship with Maya. And it's right, is it that you
01:23:27 Maya. And it's right, is it that you could have just said no and walked away from that
01:23:30 from that perhaps? And she could have said no as well and there would have been no activity whatsoever. Yeah. But
01:23:37 Yeah. But you say perhaps. Is it is it right to say that actually yes that could have happened?
01:23:42 happened? What could have happened? That you could have said no and walked away.
01:23:45 away. I could have said no. Yes. And do you accept that you should have said no?
01:23:51 said no? I am more than aware of my moral and ethical failings in regard to my relationship with Maya.
01:23:59 So that's a a yes effectively. No. They're saying, "I'm more than aware of my moral and ethical failings in relation to my relationship with Maya over the time that that relationship existed."
01:24:09 existed." Do you accept that your moral and ethical responsibility was not to enter into a sexual relationship with Maya? Absolutely. I should I should not have entered into that relationship with her.
01:24:25 In terms of the continued relationship, the sexual relationship that you had with Maya, is it right that you continued to sleep together after that first instance regularly, averaging
01:24:38 first instance regularly, averaging about twice a week? I can't recall, obviously, I can't recall the numbers, but we obviously had sex a number of times after that first time. Yes, I accept that.
01:24:47 that. And was it generally at her house? It wasn't at your flat any. Generally, yes, after that. Um, in terms of contraception, uh, is it right that you did use
01:24:59 uh, is it right that you did use contraception at the start but then stopped when she told you she was on the contraceptive pill? No, I don't recall that. In your witness statement, you say that you don't recall any discussion about
01:25:11 you don't recall any discussion about contraception at all. That's correct. Is that right? And did you not use contraception at all then?
01:25:16 then? I don't recall ever having used contraception with Maya? Never.
01:25:19 Never. Never.
01:25:20 Never. Um, was it given that you don't recall having a conversation and you didn't use contraception as far as you recall
01:25:31 contraception as far as you recall was, if that's right, was that not quite reckless on your part? No.
01:25:37 No. And why' you say that? Because there would have been no risk of pregnancy
01:25:42 pregnancy during a sexual relationship with Maya. Yes. And why' you say that? Because I had a basectomy.
01:25:50 Um, had you told that to Maya? No.
01:25:56 Is that something that perhaps you should have told her when you get to the stage where you're talking about children? It's something that perhaps would have come up in a discussion if the
01:26:07 come up in a discussion if the relationship developed in a particular way.
01:26:09 way. The relationship did develop in a particular way, didn't it? So that you were talking about marriage and having children down the line. I think it's perfectly fair to say that both of us
01:26:20 perfectly fair to say that both of us within this relationship created a kind of fantasy world of how we saw things and when we spoke about things and I accept that it was quite wrong that that happened.
01:26:32 wrong that that happened. So at least from your perspective you you were in a fantasy world with Maya and that's what you were creating. No, what I'm in retrospect when I look back and I look at the relationship, I
01:26:44 back and I look at the relationship, I look at how things developed and how it went, it seems clear to me that the relationship that we had was difficult. It was troubled.
01:26:57 I would go so far to say that I think I still
01:27:02 I am still unclear as to my relationship with Maya, the impact I had on her and and on myself. Do you recognize that actually Maya
01:27:15 Do you recognize that actually Maya fell head over heels in love with you and she was genuine about her feelings for you? She thought this was a real relationship. I can accept that would have been possible. I also state that my feelings
01:27:27 possible. I also state that my feelings for her were genuine as well. But that she thought this was a a real relationship that had legs that would go on for years that you would settle have a family. It does. Her evidence isn't
01:27:40 a family. It does. Her evidence isn't that this was just a fantasy that you would like to talk about in some kind of I think the point I would make to is that the way that I viewed the relationship at the time, the way that I viewed the relationship say in 2015 and
01:27:53 viewed the relationship say in 2015 and the way that I would view the relationship now are different. And and how did you view it at this stage in 2006 within the first few months of you
01:28:04 within the first few months of you starting a sexual relationship? I would describe it as being a troubled relationship certainly, but why?
01:28:21 Did you see it as a a fantastical sort of relationship then? I I think I I was I was obviously very I think we were both happy, I would say.
01:28:35 Did you think this was a real relationship or is this just a fantasy part of your undercover deployment and you saw that it was something fun to be engaged with before the end of your
01:28:46 engaged with before the end of your deployment in a few years time? I certainly never saw it as something that was just something you would do for fun.
01:28:52 fun. Did you recognize that actually this was all going to have to come to an end at some point
01:28:59 at the time? No, perhaps. So at what point did you looking back at it only from 2015 you recognize that it was a bit of a fantasy world for you? In
01:29:10 was a bit of a fantasy world for you? In retrospect is that your evidence? In retrospect I think you could say that you had two people. There was clearly an attraction between us.
01:29:21 But given the mechanics of who we both are as individuals, it probably would have been better if we hadn't had a relationship from the start.
01:29:36 Just looking at how that relationship developed then, um, is it right to say that you were often dropping by her home after visiting a Tif or dropping others off at the cooperative as a designated
01:29:48 off at the cooperative as a designated driver? I
01:29:50 driver? I think that would be fair. And often that was unannounced in the early hours between 1 and 2 o'clock in the morning sometimes, but I was also there during the day.
01:29:59 the day. Um, how much time would you spend there during the day? Sometimes the whole day through to the night
01:30:07 night um what would you do there during the day? We we would spend Mara and I our relationship was very much predicated on
01:30:18 it was both incredibly sexual and at the same time there was clearly some form of intellectual cap uh
01:30:29 some form of intellectual cap uh compatibility in terms of things that we would speak about. We just got on in that sense. Um, in terms of turning up in the early hours after being at a Tif's home,
01:30:44 was she often in bed at that time in the morning?
01:30:49 morning? She's certainly a late riser. What about going to bed? So, we're talking about the early hours of the night, 1 or 2:00 in the in the early hours after midnight. So, what are you suggesting that in that
01:31:01 So, what are you suggesting that in that time at time of the evening, she will be in bed at that time? No, she was often a nocturnal creature. She would be up till very early in the morning.
01:31:08 morning. Oh, I see that she's up all night. Was she to the best of my recollection, Maya was was I don't think she had a regular job at the time. So, I think her hours were irregular in terms of her her
01:31:22 hours were irregular in terms of her her daily hours if you like. And when you were turning up in the early hours of the morning, that was convenient to you in terms of how that fitted in with your relationship with. Is that right? I think it would have
01:31:33 Is that right? I think it would have been convenient to both Maya and I. Um, when you arrived at that time, was it a given that you would have sex with Maya?
01:31:42 Maya? No, I never took that for granted, nor would I.
01:31:46 would I. Is that what actually happened though? In reality, we would very often have sex. Yes. U, in terms of you turning up at her house, was it often unannounced?
01:31:59 house, was it often unannounced? Announced and unannounced. Um, in in that regard, was it often on your terms or did you go when she invited you around? Both.
01:32:11 Both. Um,
01:32:13 Um, was it generally speaking the majority of the time you turning up according to your schedules? I certainly turned up at those regular hours. Yes, I I accept that. But in
01:32:24 hours. Yes, I I accept that. But in terms of being invited, it was very often by invitation or it was both. Did you sometimes send her text before uh arriving at her door saying look
01:32:35 uh arriving at her door saying look outside your window and you'd be there? Possibly.
01:32:41 Possibly. And did you send her a text saying I'm watching you? I don't recall doing so. Is it likely that you might have done if she remembers that? I don't recall doing so.
01:32:53 I don't recall doing so. Do you accept that that might be something the type of thing that you would have done? No, but I certainly recall much later um making a comment that I had passed by her window, driven past her window.
01:33:06 her window, driven past her window. And how often would you say, you know, look outside your window, I'm I'm here. I don't recall sending them. Um,
01:33:16 Um, she says that she initially found that quite romantic, but in hindsight, now knowing that you're you were a UCO, she finds that creepy. Do you accept that
01:33:27 finds that creepy. Do you accept that that is something that she would now perceive in hindsight? I can certainly accept that Maya, as with anyone in this situation, would retrospectively look at a relationship that existed and perhaps see it through
01:33:38 that existed and perhaps see it through a different lens? Was sending texts like that or appearing outside her window a subtle way of controlling the relationship? Like
01:33:50 controlling the relationship? Like holding the cards, letting her know that she's being watched when she might not know that she is. I never sought to control Maya or had control of her. She's very much a free spirit.
01:34:03 These evenings, these nights when you're turning up or the days that you're spending with Maya, would they have been better served going back home to your real family?
01:34:14 real family? In retrospect, obviously. Yes. And working on that anchor to keep you anchored in real life. I think by this time I think it's worth obviously the um Yes.
01:34:27 Um was that was the state of your relationship at home troubled by that stage?
01:34:34 stage? I think certainly my relationship with my um my ex partner through the throughout the course of my deployment on SDS
01:34:43 on SDS changed significantly. So this is coming up to almost two years since deployment. Are you saying within two years of deployment, your home life
01:34:54 two years of deployment, your home life wasn't what it was? It certainly wasn't as it had been prior to my starting on SDS. Um are you saying that the the work on the SDS impacted on that?
01:35:06 the SDS impacted on that? Yes.
01:35:06 Yes. Or or was it your sexual attraction to other women that impacted on that? I would say that my work within SDS massively impacted upon uh the the life my my exartner
01:35:17 my my exartner and to what extent was your sexual relationships with other women impacting on that relationship my exartner would not have been aware of those sexual relationships and by and it
01:35:28 those sexual relationships and by and it wasn't a sexual relationship Maya was one as I the thing you mentioned to earlier on as I said there was sexual activity but there was not intercourse okay
01:35:35 okay and there was not a relationship and to what extent do you think that those decisions that you made in relation to those women impacted on your relationship with your exartner huge subsequently hugely had a massive
01:35:48 huge subsequently hugely had a massive impact on my family obviously at the time did it have an impact no because they wouldn't have known about my my exartner would not have known about my relationship with my at that time
01:35:59 that time but obviously you knew did it have any impact in your relationship because you knew what you were doing in your personality because clearly there was an attraction with there was a very strong attraction
01:36:10 with there was a very strong attraction to Maya.
01:36:13 to Maya. Um, is that one of the reasons why you continued your relationship with Maya because your home life had started to break down by that point? My relationship with Maya would have
01:36:24 My relationship with Maya would have continued because of my feelings towards Maya.
01:36:29 The the the kind dis disintegration of that anchor to real life back home. did that.
01:36:36 that. In retrospect, I would I would certainly say that the the sense of who I was had certainly started to disintegrate
01:36:48 at that point. Did you think about raising this with SDS management or the psychologist that was available to you? No.
01:36:56 No. Was there any sense that perhaps you ought to be doing something about this because it was having a negative impact on you and your family?
01:37:07 That's quite complex to unpack. I think on the one hand there's the fact that all of us on NCS or I can only speak of to myself obviously would be that in terms of the interactions with Dr. Ian
01:37:18 terms of the interactions with Dr. Ian Palmer.
01:37:19 Palmer. I think there was a suspicion generally that if you spoke to him, you would have to be very careful what you said because if you said the wrong thing potentially you're you're
01:37:31 you're you're you could be pulled out of the field and there was always I suspect there was always a suspicion that he would necessarily have to report back any concerns that he might have um to the back office.
01:37:43 back office. Did you have by this stage any doubts about your deployment in the field and whether you were fit to be in the field? Not at that time. No. Did that become apparent later on?
01:37:58 With the benefit of hindsight, I think that
01:38:03 that it would have been better if I hadn't joined SDS. Was
01:38:09 Was there a time during the course of your SDS deployment though that you started yourself to think about whether you ought to be doing this job or not? No. What I would say is I certainly felt
01:38:21 No. What I would say is I certainly felt a very strong sense of guilt that developed subsequent during and subsequent to my interactions with Maya.
01:38:32 Did you have a sense of whether you were having a sexual relationship in your spare time or whether you were having a sexual relationship with Maya
01:38:43 having a sexual relationship with Maya during your uh uh uh time on duty? Were you claiming overtime for the time that you were spending with Maya? I saw my relationship with Mayer clearly whilst up as being all-encompassing. It
01:38:54 whilst up as being all-encompassing. It was part of who I was, part of who Rob Harrison was. So it was part of your deployment was encapsulated within that deployment. Did you have any operational benefit
01:39:06 Did you have any operational benefit occurring to to you um as a result of my relationship with as a result of that or was it purely just sexual pleasure for you?
01:39:17 just sexual pleasure for you? I I' I'd never said it was purely sexual pleasure just to be clear. What I will say to you however was that there was particularly there was one individual certainly another female activist who had caused me particular difficulties
01:39:28 had caused me particular difficulties whilst I was in the field. Maya didn't attend I think she attended events relating to my deployment on I think two occasions. Um Maya came to this event
01:39:42 occasions. Um Maya came to this event this particular female saw that Maya was there saw that Maya was there with me. Mike came up to me and we hugged each other and I think that perhaps sent the
01:39:53 other and I think that perhaps sent the behavior of that particular individual then changed as a result afterwards. So that's is that the war on operational benefit that you can think of in terms of the relationship you had with I think more generally there is an
01:40:05 I think more generally there is an argument to be said that having a relationship would make the persona more authentic would make it more rooted would make it more real particularly for those individuals who are around the officer whom they may be interacting
01:40:17 officer whom they may be interacting with.
01:40:20 with. She doesn't recall going out with you spending time outside the flat. She says your your relationship was largely sex-based and that you didn't go out as
01:40:32 sex-based and that you didn't go out as a couple. You didn't go for dinner, to the cinema, to different social engagements. Um, how far does that uh uh mirror your recollection?
01:40:43 uh uh mirror your recollection? It's certainly true that it was very much based around her home address. I certainly recall trying to get her to go out and and go out um to the seaside. Uh I can certainly recall that. But it was
01:40:55 I can certainly recall that. But it was very much predicated. It wasn't uh it was very much based on primarily perhaps what you know Micah said we want to do this, we do that. But she didn't actually say anything like that.
01:41:07 actually say anything like that. So that's the one occasion that you went to Brighton. Is that Yeah, I can recall doing that. So you went to Bright on that one occasion, but otherwise there's no you've mentioned that one instance where
01:41:18 you've mentioned that one instance where you hugged me and and you say somebody was uh uh deterred from making sexual advances.
01:41:24 advances. I didn't say that. What I said was that they there was an individual, a female activist with whom I'd had problems. And this
01:41:30 this When you say problems, what what do you mean? Because she was making sexual advances to or not not at all. No, this was an individual. For whatever reason, I've never been able to understand or discover why, but um there was clearly some form of she clearly had an issue of
01:41:42 some form of she clearly had an issue of some kind with me. Perhaps she suspected me been a police officer. I don't know. Uh but seeing you hug Maya on that one occasion that it certainly had an impact on her
01:41:53 it certainly had an impact on her behavior,
01:41:53 behavior, seemed to have assisted. Beyond that, no operational benefit from having a relationship with Maya. What I would say again I make the point in terms of being making that person Rob Harrison more real and having a relationship with
01:42:05 real and having a relationship with individuals who he's known for some time and they can see that he's in a relation with someone that would have made him more real to them I think. And is that something that you consciously had in your mind when
01:42:16 consciously had in your mind when starting a relationship with Maya? No, that was not part of a strate if you're suggesting I had a deliberate strategy that I'm going to have a sexual relationship with me for this operational end. That was not how I recall it. Okay.
01:42:25 Okay. And so is it more uh uh realistic to c to to describe it as a relationship that you had for your own personal reasons,
01:42:38 you had for your own personal reasons, not for operational reasons. I think the boundaries there are are are are very confused. Where did your managers think you were when you were sleeping at Maya's house? I have no idea.
01:42:49 I have no idea. They never asked you. No,
01:42:51 No, they never asked you where you were day by day, night by night. I was never asked about sexual activity whilst I was on the unit. Do you recall saying to Maya that you didn't find white women attractive?
01:43:03 didn't find white women attractive? No.
01:43:06 No. She recalls you saying as well as that that uh blondes and yuck. Do you recall saying that? That's possible. Why is it blondes are yuck, but you
01:43:18 Why is it blondes are yuck, but you would never have said that white women are not attractive? Because because someone's blonde doesn't necessarily mean that they're white. No, but
01:43:27 No, but Is it because it's to do with the color of the hair as opposed to the color of the skin and therefore racist connotations? You're denying that. That could be a comment purely about preference.
01:43:38 about preference. Um, did you make racialized comments about women? Not that I recall. No. In a sexual preference context? Not that I recall.
01:43:50 Not that I recall. Is it although you don't recall it, is it the sort of thing you might have said?
01:43:59 I certainly have preferences. Yes. Would you have made those comments to Maya because you thought it might flatter her? No.
01:44:08 No. Did you
01:44:11 Did you approach Maya uh because of the color of her skin? No.
01:44:22 In pursuing sex with Maya or a relationship with Maya, were you motivated by racial feticization? Feticization. Sorry. In what sense then? Well, how are
01:44:33 Sorry. In what sense then? Well, how are you going to frame that? What specifically you're pointing at saying this is a point of which you're feticizing? Um the fact that she is of a particular uh race
01:44:43 uh race was absolutely irrelevant. It was Maya Maya's character. Maya's character, as I said earlier, there was clearly an attraction that developed between us and her intelligence and her character was a
01:44:55 her intelligence and her character was a big part of that. Did you comment on the color of her skin?
01:44:59 skin? I don't recall doing so. Did you comment on that in context of having children and how beautiful your children would be? There's no doubt if we had had children, if it had been possible, they would I suspect they would have been fairly
01:45:10 suspect they would have been fairly attractive. Did you use racist or sexist language in your blogging world as Boogie Boy? Not that I recall,
01:45:22 Not that I recall, but that is quite but but again if there are any um messages or blogs that you have and I'm happy to discuss go through them. I'm happy to discuss them and provide context. Uh is that something that you would have
01:45:33 Uh is that something that you would have done in your persona as uh Rob Harrison? Certainly the fact within the legend that that related to Rob Harrison there was that had to be an explanation of there being a of there being a
01:45:46 there being a of there being a requirement for AfroCaribbean or black individuals to be part of his history because of the fact that my exartner was AfroCaribbean and my children were mixed race
01:45:57 race and so did that become part of what you would talk about in your undercover persona? it might possibly been informed in terms of maintaining the legend and also as I've said to you previously the
01:46:09 also as I've said to you previously the the thing that I always had to consider was is there a likelihood what do I say if I bump into any of the and forgive me for this term the wearies if I bumped into a weary when I was with my real family what's the possible reaction how
01:46:21 family what's the possible reaction how am I going to explain that potentially away
01:46:25 away and did you have conversations with people about the types of wh your type of woman and that being not a white woman.
01:46:34 woman. Where where did you did you have any conversations within your uh deployment and the persona that you were where generally or in a specific environment
01:46:46 environment possibly.
01:46:50 And so if Maya were to recall something like that, it's possible that she recalls it, albeit you don't recall having said anything specific like that. Possibly.
01:47:01 Um, is it right that in your emails with Maya you would often speak in quite flowery poetic language quoting Shakespeare?
01:47:12 Shakespeare? As again as I as I make the ca as I stated to you earlier the relationship as it existed certainly that would have been the case. It was there was just a way in which we communicated
01:47:24 way in which we communicated in in the gift you brought her. I think there was one gift that you bought her during the course of the relationship which was the complete works of Shakespeare. That's correct. Right. Did you not buy her any other gifts?
01:47:36 Did you not buy her any other gifts? I can't remember. Um, as we've touched on, you didn't spend time outside of the home really, but even within the home, is it right to
01:47:47 but even within the home, is it right to say that you didn't cook, watch TV together, have dinner together? You didn't do those things that perhaps couples might normally do in a relationship. But I think much of our relationship was
01:47:59 But I think much of our relationship was based in the bedroom certainly, but that was obviously we're in a cooperative. So you've got private space and you've got communal space. And would it have been open to you to sit and watch TV together or meal?
01:48:11 sit and watch TV together or meal? Absolutely. Why didn't you do that? I can't explain that. Is it something that she found quite upsetting and confusing as to why you didn't
01:48:22 didn't I don't know engage with her like that? I don't know. Did you tell her that you didn't have very much money? Well, as part of my legend, I was working um but I certainly wasn't rich necessarily
01:48:35 but I certainly wasn't rich necessarily because the nature of the deployment. She recalls in her oral evidence that she gave to the inquiry last week that there were three Robs in her view.
01:48:46 there were three Robs in her view. Firstly, the one that she would meet with and have sex with. The second one was the flowery Rob who would send her Shakespearean emails. And the third one was the nasty Rob who
01:48:59 the third one was the nasty Rob who would abuse and criticize her by texts and calls. Do you recognize those three types of characteristics that you
01:49:10 types of characteristics that you that you display during your deployment? No, but I accept that the relationship became very difficult subsequent to that and there were certainly some very sharp exchanges between us. Okay. And do you recognize that therefore she might be able to perceive
01:49:22 therefore she might be able to perceive these three different uh personalities within your character? that perhaps I can't speak to if that's what she did, but if that's how Maya has perceived it,
01:49:33 but if that's how Maya has perceived it, then I'm not going to criticize her for doing so.
01:49:35 doing so. You can see how that might have come across in your interactions with my I don't know how she's reached that those dichotoies if you like, but that those are those are hers, not mine.
01:49:49 that those are those are hers, not mine. Was this a sexually exploitative arrangement with Maya? Is it sex on tap as convenient to you? No.
01:50:00 No. My feelings for my were genuine.
01:50:11 Is it right to say that from very early on in the relationship you told her that I love you, but only during but only during sex? No, I certainly did love her. There's no
01:50:22 No, I certainly did love her. There's no doubt about that. Did you only tell her that during sex? No, I recall telling her outside of that.
01:50:28 that. Did you pressure her to say it back to you?
01:50:31 you? No, that would have been entirely her choice.
01:50:38 Did that move to you saying that quite quickly that you were that she was the love of your life and that you made grandiose declarations of love to her
01:50:49 grandiose declarations of love to her and a future together? I would say that I'd never met anyone quite like Maya before. And
01:50:59 did that prompt you to to speak to her in that way? I can certainly imagine us it wouldn't I could certainly imagine and had wished that we perhaps would have had a future together.
01:51:10 Can you recognize the impact that would have on her given her experience that she was completely whisked off her feet by that?
01:51:21 completely whisked off her feet by that? That she believed what you were saying to her?
01:51:23 to her? Well, what I was saying to her was true. I did love her. How does that fit with your relationship that it was largely just within the bedroom? You weren't
01:51:36 just within the bedroom? You weren't taking her out. weren't courting her in in the way that she's expressed she might otherwise anticipate would happen in a normal relationship. I I can't speak. I can't explain. The relationship was as it was.
01:51:49 relationship was as it was. Would you accept that it was a completely abnormal relationship? What is normal? Um by sheer dent of the fact that you were an undercover officer. She didn't
01:52:00 were an undercover officer. She didn't know who you were or what you were. Would you say that? That certainly makes it abnormal. Yes. And so
01:52:05 And so that's different. The fact that I'm an undercover police officer is not the same as saying the nature of a relationship except for I accept I was an undercover police officer. But relationships generally can function and operate in very different ways.
01:52:17 operate in very different ways. Otherwise, you're going to present to me here a very normative version or model of what you consider to be a normal relationship. For some people, that isn't the case. They don't live their lives in that way. Did you understand that Maya wanted to u other things to
01:52:28 that Maya wanted to u other things to happen in the relationship like cooking, going out, you telling her that you loved her outside of the bedroom? I was the one who instigated us going outside, going down to the seaside, for
01:52:39 outside, going down to the seaside, for example. My at no time said to me, would you cook for me? If she had, I would have done. Did you think about offering to do that at the time? No, obviously. Is that because you were concentrating
01:52:51 Is that because you were concentrating on the sexual element of the relationship? No, but I would certainly admit that the sexual element of the relationship was very important and strong.
01:53:00 strong. Do you recall that uh she sent you a text saying that you only told her you loved her in the bedroom and that your response was that's below the belt.
01:53:12 response was that's below the belt. Well, that suggests to me that that clearly says that I disagreed with that assertion that she'd made. Do you remember that happening? I don't remember it not happening, but it's if there's a text that are you going to present me with that text?
01:53:24 present me with that text? We don't have the text, right? But that's what she recalls happening. She's put that in her. Well, I would suggest if I've said to her, you've said that to me, it's below the belt. That suggests that I fundamentally disagree with what's been said.
01:53:33 said. And you accept that that might be the sort of thing you would have said. What precisely? That that's below the belt. If she if she
01:53:40 she addressed you in that way, saying, "You only tell me you love me outside the bedroom." Is that the sort of thing you would have responded with? That's below. Seems like a reasonable response under the circumstances.
01:53:51 the circumstances. Um, I think now is a good time to break, sir. Afterwards, we're going to start looking at some of the emails, the correspondence between you. Thank you. We'll break for 15 minutes.
02:12:59 Pardon me. Oh dear. Thank you,
02:13:05 Mr. Hastings. Just to have a look at some of the email correspondence now between you and Maya. one of the early emails that she sent to
02:13:16 one of the early emails that she sent to you. It's exhibited at M1 to her witness statement which is you at UCPI 38191.
02:13:27 If we can go to page two please of the exhibit.
02:13:36 This is an email that was sent from Maya to you on the 31st of August 2006 at half five in the evening. Um
02:13:51 I'd like to go through this email. It's a long email. Um and it sets out some of her um complaints about what she saw as
02:14:02 her um complaints about what she saw as problems in the relationship. So, we're now looking it's about two to three months into the relationship. Is that fair to say? Um, sorry. Yes. Between between the first uh uh uh sex
02:14:15 Between between the first uh uh uh sex that you had in the early June to the August. Um, and I'd like to go through it in some detail. I'm not going to go through all of the emails in in real detail, but I
02:14:28 of the emails in in real detail, but I think this sets out some of the issues that she's already flagging to you from a fairly early stage. If we can have a look at paragraph one first,
02:14:53 the last sentence. I'm giving you time just to read this to put it into context. Thank you.
02:15:32 Okay, the last sentence says that it also makes it hard still to think that somebody can love you without really knowing you. And going into the top of
02:15:43 knowing you. And going into the top of paragraph two, she says, "Outside the bedroom, I still haven't heard you say that.
02:15:52 So is that recognition? Do you accept that? That is recognition that you say you love her, but only within the bedroom setting.
02:16:03 but only within the bedroom setting. No, I say I did love her
02:16:07 and I did tell her I loved her. But that was always within the context of sex. Is that No, it wasn't. No, I've already said that. No.
02:16:18 Um
02:16:22 the last part of paragraph two
02:16:29 and she's explaining here. She's talking about infidelity, accusations of infidelity that you make towards her.
02:16:51 Do you recall there was a an incident where she was um I think she was in Leeds and um she said I'm going to be irresponsible and by that she meant I'm going to self harm whereas you thought
02:17:03 going to self harm whereas you thought that was she was going to have a sexual contact with another man and you accused her then of you know infidelity in that to delete your
02:17:15 infidelity in that to delete your number. You became angry with her. Does that ring any bells? It doesn't ring any bells, but if some if I thought that was going to happen, then I obviously would have been angry. You would have been angry. I think if someone was going to cheat,
02:17:26 I think if someone was going to cheat, then yes.
02:17:28 then yes. And it appears that there was a different perception as to what she meant by being irresponsible. She says at the end of paragraph 2, "I have no idea what went through your mind, but
02:17:40 idea what went through your mind, but I'm guessing it had a lot to do with me [ __ ] and wanting to do all sorts of other intimate physical behavior with other people rather than be ha perhaps I wanted to get off my head on drugs or
02:17:52 wanted to get off my head on drugs or would go to do a lot of physical injury to myself."
02:17:58 Reading that, what did you think about that? about her taking drugs or wanting to self harm. Did you recognize that that is something
02:18:10 Did you recognize that that is something that she was at risk of doing at the time? Obviously, no. When you say at the time, so this email from 2006, were you aware of that then in 2006 that that's something that she
02:18:22 in 2006 that that's something that she was
02:18:23 was whether I well the question here is whether I register registered this okay
02:18:28 okay in the right way. That seems to be the point that that's that's here. You have an individual who is saying, "I want to go and take drugs. I might go and do some physical harm to themselves.
02:18:43 Did you read this email when she sent it to you?"
02:18:46 to you?" I imagine so. And did that give you cause for concern at all about her at the time? Obviously, perhaps not in the way that it should have.
02:18:57 the way that it should have. This email appears to have been sent post some argument and that you're uh you've been cross with her. Did it make sense on reading it? Ah,
02:19:10 Did it make sense on reading it? Ah, I've misinterpreted what she was saying about being irresponsible. Do you do I have a Do you have a response from me, an email response to this?
02:19:18 this? We do later on. Okay. Would it not be better to go to that now because obviously that would be contemporaneous to this? Um, we can do um it's on page seven
02:19:38 and you reply on the 3rd of September at 9:54 in the evening and it's a a slightly well a much shorter email. If I
02:19:50 slightly well a much shorter email. If I give you a chance to read through it in full rather than take you to specific
02:19:57 paragraphs.
02:20:19 Yeah, that's that's an email that would be in keeping in terms of the way it's expressed in the interactions that I had with her.
02:20:27 with her. Okay. So, knowing now what you how you respond, if we go back to the email that she sent to you, yes, it's I think if you read my response to by way of email, then on the
02:20:38 response to by way of email, then on the basis of what's contained in this email rather than anything outside of that, it seems fairly clear that what she has said is not registered with registered with me in the way that perhaps she intended.
02:20:47 intended. Okay.
02:20:49 Okay. Is it right that she would send you emails like this because she felt that she couldn't speak to you face to face about some of the issues and the upset that she experienced in the
02:21:00 that she experienced in the relationship. She would put things down in writing to you. What well what I would say is that Maya very very much was given to expressing herself through writing. That was very much a mechanism that she used and they
02:21:11 much a mechanism that she used and they were of a particular style and there was a style interaction between us that existed.
02:21:18 Just looking back at this email then back to page two
02:21:24 paragraph four that starts if you want to know about my past. I have been very stupid on that level. I've never slept behind someone else's
02:21:36 I've never slept behind someone else's back or anything like that, but I continued to make friends once with a married man. Do you see that paragraph?
02:21:50 Yeah, I can see that.
02:21:54 And if you've had chance to to to read through that, she says that I think I I really thought so much crap about myself that, you know, even if I could never be with him,
02:22:06 know, even if I could never be with him, I felt that low about myself that being around any scumbag who said I looked nice made me somehow believe them for a little while.
02:22:17 little while. And she goes on to say the penult third sentence from the bottom. I couldn't kiss him or go further because that's just it. Even if his wife would never know it was just wrong.
02:22:31 And then paragraph five, she talks about things being right and wrong,
02:22:41 wrong, but that it was obvious that obviously she she wouldn't progress a relationship with a married man. I accept. I can see that because she understood that that was morally wrong.
02:22:54 And did you read that and think, "Oh gosh, this is a situation I'm in now where, you know, I've got a a a partner." You were still a partner at
02:23:05 partner." You were still a partner at the time. Is that right? And and a family back home. This is something that would be morally objectionable to Maya. Well, at the time, as I've just said, I I obviously clearly didn't re register
02:23:16 I obviously clearly didn't re register the contents of the email. Perhaps did not register with me in the way that Maya may have intended. you didn't recognize that that was something that was really fundamentally important to her.
02:23:25 her. Given that we've seen the reaction email that I've sent to her, that would indicate it doesn't address that specific issue. So, it would suggest to me that it wasn't something that registered or that I responded to or addressed.
02:23:39 On page three of the emails, paragraph one, again, I'll give you a chance to read it.
02:24:19 Okay. Um, was Lambrini boy somebody that you recognize? Yes.
02:24:24 Yes. And did you make accusations towards her that she might be having a a sexual uh liaison with him? No, I don't believe so. Uh did you make out that he was somebody
02:24:37 Uh did you make out that he was somebody that she would go to when you fell out? I think no. I think in the context of this again with an email that's in front of me, she seems to be saying that there is some kind of incident taking place between her and this individual and it's
02:24:49 between her and this individual and it's being presented to me as a potential thing. Would that have upset me? Possibly.
02:24:55 Possibly. The question to ask therefore is then why is it being presented to me? Is it to provoke a reaction from me perhaps? No, it's just to ask you about the context in which she's she's putting this. She she talks about brambles and
02:25:06 this. She she talks about brambles and is that something that she spoke to you about in terms of self harm? Not spec. Well, at the time of this, I think it's something that comes up later.
02:25:16 later. Okay. So, you understand brambles as being something that it's something that within Maya's means of communicating has a very specific meaning and resonance for her
02:25:27 meaning and resonance for her in relieving pain. that was something that you recognized then as some reference to selfharming. I think later on again when the
02:25:38 I think later on again when the relationship starts to go badly wrong I clearly recognize that there is something going on. The question then becomes however what do I do in that situation? How do I respond? What can I possibly do?
02:25:50 possibly do? So she's setting out some of her concerns in that paragraph. The next paragraph, paragraph two on this page again. If you have you read that already or shall I
02:26:27 It's really the f the first part of the paragraph where she talks about knowing that you've been through so much [ __ ] Um, you've never gone into detail about it, but I know it's all been pretty
02:26:39 it, but I know it's all been pretty awful and difficult for you to ever trust women again. So, whatever happened, I know it was bad. Was that part of your legend? Was that something you were telling me about past
02:26:51 you were telling me about past uh difficulties you'd had with relationships? My recollection is that the legend that I put together certainly had some element that would would indicate that there had been problems with women in the past. So therefore, I wouldn't
02:27:02 the past. So therefore, I wouldn't engage with them necessarily. Okay. So is that something you did put into your legend to to mitigate against the risk of having relationships during the course of your deployment? I just
02:27:13 the course of your deployment? I just recall putting it in there and it kind of made sense. It would obviously potentially lessen the risk of getting involved with individuals because you'll be seen to be a damaged individual in some way.
02:27:23 some way. Sorry, what was that? Because you would be seen to be damaged in some way. People would be wary. They want to come near you. Yeah. And did you ever think about deploying that part of your legend to prevent sexual relationships happening?
02:27:35 prevent sexual relationships happening? I think certainly as various parts of my early deployment I think I did because there were often questions asked of me there was an expectation or an
02:27:46 of me there was an expectation or an assumption on the part of some of the wearies that they'd assumed that I would have a relationship with an individual when I didn't have a relationship or any form of interaction. They would very often question why that was the case.
02:28:00 Paragraph three on this page, it's just the middle part of the paragraph. She confirms that she's writing to pour her heart out
02:28:14 because things make her feel so down at times to the point where I just stare at the screen for too long without doing anything and upset myself on stuff that probably is out of silly misunderstanding. She's reaching out to
02:28:25 misunderstanding. She's reaching out to you. Sorry, it's paragraph three. Thank you. It's just changed here. Yeah. Great.
02:28:50 And as you've said, you recognized that was something Maya did. She put things down in writing and and expressed her her feelings in that way. Maya was very much someone who expressed herself by way of uh of email.
02:29:02 herself by way of uh of email. Paragraph four on this page
02:29:06 starts, we all ask for honesty.
02:29:30 And this is the paragraph in which she she tells you about having been raped. Is it at this point that you knew about
02:29:41 Is it at this point that you knew about it or were you aware of it before? She recalls telling you on that first night that you had sex, but is this at least by August you knew
02:29:52 is this at least by August you knew about her past rape? Then as horrible as it is, this has not registered as I gave the answer to you earlier. I don't know where this fits within the timeline. The issue of her being raped was most
02:30:04 The issue of her being raped was most certainly in my head at a sister's wedding because of the individual I believe Maya said was present may have tried or was responsible for that. And as we've got the email that answers
02:30:15 as we've got the email that answers this, I do not respond to this. That's the issue. Okay. So, is it that she's having a look at this paragraph? It appears that she
02:30:26 at this paragraph? It appears that she might be telling you about this again, reiterating it in her evidence because you have you asked her a question about whether she entertains herself with
02:30:37 whether she entertains herself with thoughts of other men. I don't know. Is there an issue in your relationship where you're testing her faithfulness? I don't recall ever having done that.
02:30:48 I don't recall ever having done that. Were you jealous of her being around other men at all? No, we had we certainly had of the relationship certainly was fractious around these issues on both sides.
02:30:59 around these issues on both sides. And why was it fractious around these issues?
02:31:02 issues? Probably because you had two individuals who had a very intense relationship um a very intense but difficult relationship. Did you not trust Maya?
02:31:16 No, I think I think I did. Although I may perhaps have expressed myself badly throughout the course of emails and text messages.
02:31:25 messages. Um, were you you say that you didn't reg this this is a woman that you profess to love and she's telling you about having been raped. You say that didn't register. Did it
02:31:36 You say that didn't register. Did it register at all then that she's blaming herself for that because she got curious and stupid? you you just haven't read the point or
02:31:48 you you just haven't read the point or it hasn't the point here is the only contempor contemporaneous document that we can make reference to appears to be the reply that was made and in the reply that's made there is no direct apparently there's no direct reference
02:32:00 apparently there's no direct reference to any the issues that are raised in this outside of the email I can't speak to we've only got the email available to reply
02:32:06 reply from your own recollection do you remember an email like this something quite significant being said
02:32:15 said again I make the point it's not registered in the email I can't speak as to whether I'd register registered this outside of this
02:32:30 paragraph five on this page
02:32:42 she says I don't want to write feel for you at this rate. One minute I get pissed and vitriolic and the next I despair. Other times just
02:32:54 and the next I despair. Other times just sorry if everything is my as if as is sorry as if everything is my fault and I just want to comfort you and hold you.
02:33:05 just want to comfort you and hold you. Was there a sense in your relationship that she would blame herself for problems in a relationship? She then feels guilty about that. She wants to comfort you. She's concerned about your
02:33:17 comfort you. She's concerned about your well-being and your comfort. I think that could be read as a comment on how she understood our relationship to be.
02:33:31 Paragraph six.
02:34:04 This is talking about family and friends and their different attitudes towards you and the relationship.
02:34:12 Yeah. Did you understand that family uh were were thinking that maybe marriage is on the cards for you both, but friends were not so uh supportive and they didn't
02:34:23 not so uh supportive and they didn't think that you were the right person for her?
02:34:26 her? In relation to this, I can't comment outside of that paragraph. So, I wasn't party obviously to these conversations that may or may not have been taking place.
02:34:36 place. You were party to the relationship though. Were you aware of what her family and friends thought about the relationship? I certainly wasn't aware of what her family may have thought about it. I don't recall ever being made aware of that. Although it's in this email, but I
02:34:47 that. Although it's in this email, but I can't recall. It didn't register. That's the failing on my part. This has clearly not registered in the way that mayor intended when she wrote this and sent it to me.
02:34:55 to me. And these aren't discussions that you would have had together verbally. In relation to the family, I don't recall there being any discussions around that. In relation to the friends
02:35:06 around that. In relation to the friends that was I would say it was slightly diff well friends how many of her friends were was was I actually introduced to I can't recall many if any at all other cooperative you've got a
02:35:18 at all other cooperative you've got a you've got people in the cooperative who knew Maya and they they knew me as well. Did she have um friends from her own community and and people that she would
02:35:29 community and and people that she would call brothers other males? I'm aware that that is something that Maya would explain would be a practice within that within the community from when she came. Yes.
02:35:37 Yes. And were you jealous of those other men? Not especially. Did you ever voice that to Maya? What did you ask me? What did I voice? Um a sense that she was with other men and that you weren't happy about that.
02:35:49 and that you weren't happy about that. I think there's no doubt that in our relationship there was there was jealousy that existed between the two of us. As I said, it was it became very fractious relationship. Um,
02:35:59 Um, is it fair to say that you expressed that jealousy and the thought of her being unfaithful to you through
02:36:08 through I think it's fair to say that if someone had said they were going to be unfaithful to me, I probably would have been upset by that. I appreciate there's an irony there given the fact that as you've indicated, as I've admitted, there's a there's a former partner who
02:36:19 there's a there's a former partner who is living at the time with my three children whilst this is all taking place. It's absolutely horrible. I completely accept that. Did you accept Meer's um
02:36:31 Meer's um proclaimments to you that actually she was very faithful to you that she would never be unfaithful? It wasn't part of her moral makeup. I think given the way the relationship
02:36:42 I think given the way the relationship developed and the expressions have clearly that hadn't registered with me as being genuine perhaps it hadn't registered or it hadn't registered with me. Okay.
02:36:51 Okay. She goes on then in the next sentence to say, "These are some excerpts to a friend to save me some time, which I wrote yesterday." So, she's obviously written to a friend of hers about your
02:37:04 written to a friend of hers about your relationship and uh things that she's been upset about and she's cut and pasted it into this this uh email to you. And so if we can
02:37:16 this uh email to you. And so if we can move now to the last three paragraphs on this page.
02:37:25 She says, "Here I am wearing a miniskirt.
02:37:46 And in particular, it's the reference to self harm in this paragraph and the fact that it's been an emotional [ __ ] roller coaster of last three weeks for me.
02:38:00 coaster of last three weeks for me. Yeah.
02:38:04 Um, do you recall the the weeks of August, the middle of the summer being a bit of an emotional roller coaster in terms of your relationship with Maya? I don't specifically remember that time
02:38:16 I don't specifically remember that time being, but as I've already said to you, the relation the relationships, there were certainly difficulties. Yes. Um, she sets out some of the problems. The first week, Rob got irrationally
02:38:27 The first week, Rob got irrationally jealous of me showing my portfolio to new best P guy mate P. Did you get irrationally jealous of her showing a portfolio?
02:38:38 showing a portfolio? I don't I don't recall.
02:38:44 The second week, she says, "I got a bloody text on the Sunday evening after a convo asking me if I'd been [ __ ] or even intimate with anyone else from Rob since we got together." What the hell?
02:38:56 since we got together." What the hell? That really really hurt and pissed me off.
02:39:00 off. Were you asking her about that if if she'd been intimate with anybody else? I don't recall. Is it the sort of thing you were asking her around that time? As I've said to you, I can't recall the details, but we clearly had a very
02:39:11 details, but we clearly had a very difficult relationship. Was that one of the difficulties that you were mistrusting of her or jealous of her? I think there was a difficult dynamic that existed between the two of us.
02:39:24 that existed between the two of us. And in particular, was that one of the the problems? Well, as I said, I've not addressed these issues in the email response that I've sent. So, I can't speak to that. But from your recollection of your relationship, do you recall that being a
02:39:36 relationship, do you recall that being a problem?
02:39:37 problem? There were certainly difficulties. Yes. including
02:39:40 including an irrational jealousy on your part. Is jealousy irr? Well, what I would say to you is I don't recall that. Um, next page, please. Page four
02:39:58 up at the top. starts on the bottom with but no matter how many texts back or me crying on his voicemail to say could you just call me
02:40:10 voicemail to say could you just call me back whenever nada no messages or nothing
02:40:16 nothing is it the case that you would uh ignore her ignore her uh attempts at communication with you in the relationship
02:40:27 relationship I would certainly say that there were difficulties in processing what Maya would would sometimes write.
02:40:37 She goes on to talk about an an example of when
02:40:51 she's at at home. So this is paragraphs two, three, and four.
02:41:07 Paragraph two at the top of that enlargement talks about an incident when you're going to see at
02:41:18 going to see at which paragraph is that please it's the one at the very top it's actually paragraph two but it's now at the top of the enlargement okay I'll give you chance to read That
02:41:46 heat.
02:42:03 Okay. Paragraph two and three. This appears to be a an instant where you you came around to the house. She was on the phone. You popped next door. Would that
02:42:14 phone. You popped next door. Would that be have been to Atif's house? Presumably. Yes. And the you spent some time there. Uh, it appears that there was a a little surprise birthday thing for you and a bit of cake, but that you hadn't asked
02:42:26 bit of cake, but that you hadn't asked her to go around and join you. Meanwhile, she's sat up waiting for you to come back to the house and it's now getting into the early hours of the morning and you're not
02:42:37 of the morning and you're not communicating with her and she's upset about that because she's left waiting in the house for you. Sorry, where is the thing about the my
02:42:48 Sorry, where is the thing about the my birthday? my birthday. Paragraphs two and it's the f it's the two paragraphs. So it's in the this the short paragraph in the middle of this enlargement.
02:43:02 Okay.
02:43:20 Okay. Was that a birthday for you? Is that Have we read that correctly? That um there was a bit bit of a cake and a surprise birthday for you, but Maya wasn't asked to join you on the basis of the email that appears
02:43:31 on the basis of the email that appears to be the case. Yes. Do you remember that happening? No. Going around to's house and having a No.
02:43:36 No. a cake.
02:43:39 Um, can you see how she might be quite upset about a scenario uh like that? Do you recall having an argument that she's, you know, she's waiting for you, she
02:43:50 you know, she's waiting for you, she ends up giving you the keys and you're not coming round to the house. This is again, this is my writing, not me. If and I can understand and the circumstances that have been outlined there how why someone would be upset.
02:44:02 there how why someone would be upset. Yes, of course I can.
02:44:08 Paragraph And but you're saying you don't actually recall that that instant. That hasn't stuck in your mind. No.
02:44:14 No. Paragraphs four and five, please.
02:44:19 please. starts so obviously and the next paragraph down after that please
02:45:01 Do you recall her
02:45:06 telling you anything about an incident where she was in leads and there was somebody who uh made sexual advances towards her overnight where they were staying? Something to do with work.
02:45:18 Something to do with work. I don't recall it, but reading this, it's clearly quite horrible. Did that not when you read that, did it not stick in your mind as something quite horrible and something that you might want to speak to her about,
02:45:29 might want to speak to her about, support her with? I can't say how I would have reacted at the time. I I can't remember as I've said, but reading that now, clearly this is horrible.
02:45:40 Um, top of page five, please.
02:45:49 Did you did you get the sense from Maya that she blamed herself for being raped? Is that is was that a thing that you were aware of in the relationship? Reading through some of the text that we've seen so far, it's fairly clear that there is some sense in May of being
02:46:01 that there is some sense in May of being responsible for these events happening or the event happening? Yeah. And did you understand that to be part of her at the time? No. Clearly horrible. Let's be clear about this.
02:46:12 be clear about this. Absolutely horrible.
02:46:18 at the top of this page. So, through all that stress, I had another misunderstanding with Rob because when he texted me if I was okay and he trusted I was responsible, I told him I didn't want to be responsible anymore
02:46:30 didn't want to be responsible anymore for me. That was about me not taking care of my body once I got home because all I could imagine was the many wonderful ways of how to carve my body so that no one would look at me and want
02:46:42 so that no one would look at me and want to [ __ ] me. and his response was that I should go ahead and delete his number. And I think he thought when I meant I wanted to be irresponsible, I just wanted to go ahead and [ __ ] people.
02:46:56 wanted to go ahead and [ __ ] people. Do you recall that? No. But again, that is that is distressing in the extreme. This is a person who is clearly in great difficulty and is clearly
02:47:12 passing this to me to express themselves. Paragraph three on that page in the middle of the paragraph,
02:47:25 she talks about
02:47:30 I would just clean up my room today instead to make a pretty trail with my bone sculptures and laying out what clothes to wear. I had by then decided it was going to be my I think that word
02:47:42 it was going to be my I think that word is supposed to be my breasts, stomach and back because I still had to be responsible. I had to make sure if I ended up working in another festival next week, I would have to wear dresses
02:47:53 next week, I would have to wear dresses and couldn't show marks where people could readily see.
02:47:59 By this stage, had you seen marks on Maya's body relating to places where she'd selfharmed? I don't recall doing so. No. As I mentioned earlier, the only place I can
02:48:10 mentioned earlier, the only place I can recall the AR she had marks on her arms, forearms.
02:48:15 forearms. And this does again doesn't appear to have struck you as something significant to take into account with how vulnerable Maya was. I
02:48:26 account with how vulnerable Maya was. I would wonder how what her re how am I meant to deal with this? What am I meant to do? What was my reaction? Did I withdraw? Is this to provoke a reaction in me? I don't know. You read this and
02:48:37 in me? I don't know. You read this and you read it like this. It's horrible.
02:48:46 Paragraph five on this page. If we can move down to paragraph five and six.
02:48:54 So, this is coming to the end of the extract of the email that she sent to her friend. She says, "Anyway, rest assured, I'm better for now. Rob and I just need to be able to talk and have
02:49:05 just need to be able to talk and have time to do normal things like date. I can't stand communication solely by text."
02:49:12 text." And also, in spite of the [ __ ] Rob has thoughtless thoughtlessly put me through, Rob is a nice guy and I want to give us both a chance because we both haven't really made the time for each
02:49:23 haven't really made the time for each other and it's all too easy to give up.
02:49:30 So there she's looking to do these normal things, dating as part of a relationship and having chance to talk. And then she says, uh, thus endeth the
02:49:41 And then she says, uh, thus endeth the excerpts to the mate. And if you need to question, you can read the whole of the original. I take it you didn't look at the the whole of the original email that she sent.
02:49:55 Paragraph nine on this page.
02:50:00 It's not, sweetie. You know, I can get extremely extremely depressed over tiny things when I don't understand your text messages and you seem to get quite angry.
02:50:12 angry. It's also silly only I don't know what your dark side is like.
02:50:19 I don't know if you take systematic steps to injure yourself, but I do know you must have been crazy busy stressed when you neglected to trim your chest hair. So, it's an injection of humor
02:50:31 hair. So, it's an injection of humor into it as well, trying to lighten the tone
02:50:35 tone before signing off. And over the page, page six,
02:50:45 she says, "I would like to take things less seriously, to be less hurt by your comments when I know that they are not meant to hurt and when you are not really really the cause of my neurosis."
02:50:58 really really the cause of my neurosis." Unfortunately, as of late, it's just been a problem that perhaps you have this unwitting tendency to open wounds. You don't make them, but opening them is also not nice.
02:51:12 And I would also like to get to know you more, to hurt you less, to know what pisses you off, and to be patient when I have to, when I have to be, instead of giving you headaches with this list of
02:51:25 giving you headaches with this list of demands.
02:51:27 demands. I think it works much much better when we just spend more real time together, not online time.
02:51:37 And so did was there no sense at this time then this is a bit of a cry for help in solving some of the problems in the relationship. She set it all out
02:51:50 in the relationship. She set it all out for you fairly early on in an extensive, you know, in six pages of email text about all the issues she's dealing with,
02:52:01 about all the issues she's dealing with, why she gets upset with how you accuse her of uh infidelity.
02:52:11 sets out issues about the rape, about feeling despair,
02:52:17 that she gets extremely distress dis distressed, depressed and is at risk, serious risk of self harm,
02:52:34 and she also wants to hurt you less. Was there a sense that you told her you were hurting too? That you had mental health problems?
02:52:42 problems? I don't recall telling her that I had mental health problems, but this is clearly there's a there's a relationship here, a dynamic that is very unhealthy.
02:52:52 And as you've stated, your response a few days later on the 3rd of September doesn't address those issues. The the closest it gets is paragraph seven.
02:53:05 closest it gets is paragraph seven. which is on page seven
02:53:11 where you say, "I hate the fact I seem to cause you pain. It certainly never is my intention." There is something of a cliche there, but in every cliche, there
02:53:22 cliche there, but in every cliche, there is some truth. Or is that cliche, too? I just want you to be safe and loved and cared for. those brambles hurt and I'm even prepared to become a gardener if
02:53:33 even prepared to become a gardener if required.
02:53:35 required. So I have the will and dedication you see.
02:53:39 see. So you have picked up on the brambles issue in terms of selfharming by this stage. Is that fair to say? That would indicated there is an awareness of some kind and you're expressing further dedication
02:53:52 and you're expressing further dedication and commitment. Did you not at this stage start to think Maya could become very very hurt by this
02:54:05 Maya could become very very hurt by this relationship? I think from reading through this email it's fairly clear that there is a great deal of pain there. No doubt I wouldn't deny that. Uh so hurt that she could be at re
02:54:16 Uh so hurt that she could be at re serious risk to herself. It seems it seems that there is a mechanism that she uses self harm as described by her and not seen by me at any time that
02:54:28 and not seen by me at any time that there is a mechanism there that she may be using to relate not just to me but to the wider world and issues that might exist out there.
02:54:41 By the time that she sent this long email at the end of August 2006, the content of this was not all new to you, was it?
02:54:52 you, was it? Well, as I said, I've not registered it, have I?
02:54:54 have I? You haven't registered it in the email, but just in terms of your relationship, had you registered? This as I said this seems to suggest as you've rightly pointed out that there is
02:55:06 you've rightly pointed out that there is some awareness some awareness not sure to what extent or degree but there is some awareness that may is in pain clearly
02:55:16 repetitive
03:16:44 We were on an email that was exhibited to Maya's statement 38191 at page nine. An email sent by Maya to you on Sunday
03:16:57 An email sent by Maya to you on Sunday the 24th of September 2006.
03:17:02 If we can have that back on screen. Thank you. Is that on your screen now?
03:17:09 And it's in in particular paragraph two I'm interested in. It's talking about she's never cried. I've never even cried in front of privacy. But her opinion of
03:17:20 in front of privacy. But her opinion of you lowers every time she sees me stressed even though I don't talk to her much about you because she sees that I am waiting all day for you to call or that you say things like you'll come see me but you don't or whatever. I just
03:17:33 me but you don't or whatever. I just don't like us. I I would just like us to be a little more normal. And at paragraph four
03:17:49 again, she's asking you, why don't you ever answer? Why do I have to be resorted to begging for you by a text to please call me? And now in email.
03:18:01 And at paragraph five, if you think that we have to take steps back and just be friends, that will be painful. But it will be fine. But it will only be fine
03:18:12 will be fine. But it will only be fine if you are available to communicate. Otherwise, even the friendship is a farce
03:18:23 over the page. Page 10,
03:18:30 second paragraph. It is frustrating when you can't give me straight answers about when I next get to see you. Do I just wait until you show up out of the blue?
03:18:44 Am I supposed to tell everyone that you are oh so busy and have no idea what to say when they tell me, "Well, your man seems to make enough time to go to his meetings and demonstrations. How come he
03:18:55 meetings and demonstrations. How come he doesn't make time to see you? In the middle of that paragraph, it reads, "That's what hurts most. You act like you don't give a [ __ ] You don't reply to calls. You say you love me and
03:19:08 reply to calls. You say you love me and don't think it might be a little nice to ask, hey, when we go out." And towards the end of that paragraph,
03:19:22 she says, "At least I hope my diary helps you make sense of some things.
03:19:48 in this email. So, it's three weeks since the the last uh email that we looked at. She's complaining about a lack of
03:20:00 She's complaining about a lack of communication from you. Is that right? You understand that from the email? I think so. Yes. And was it right that you would often not contact her, not respond to her communications?
03:20:11 respond to her communications? That would appear to be what she's suggesting in the email. Okay. Is was that true? I think a thing to to possibly make clear is where I am in terms of the relationship, how far we are from the
03:20:22 relationship, how far we are from the end because it's quite possible was I withdrawing from her at this stage. Well, this is September 2006, and I don't think you withdraw until uh spring or Easter of 2007. Is that right?
03:20:35 or Easter of 2007. Is that right? Well, the dates presumably available to you. I don't mean it to be facitious, just to be clear. Yeah, that that's her evidence that you you disappear uh from her life in the email clearly suggests that there is
03:20:46 the email clearly suggests that there is a concern on her part that she's not seeing me as often as she would like. She obviously indicates that obviously I've told her I love her and she hasn't said that I only say say that to her in the bedroom and uh she's obviously
03:20:57 the bedroom and uh she's obviously concerned about the fact that um she's not seeing me. She's giving you an out, isn't she? She's asking you to stop hurting her effectively and saying, "Look, we can just be friends. That'll be fine. It'll
03:21:09 just be friends. That'll be fine. It'll be painful, but if that's what you want, let's let's do that." Do you accept that? She's clearly indicating that she's in pain. and that there is that there is an
03:21:20 pain. and that there is that there is an option there available to both of us. And why did you continue with the relationship in light of that? Again, I can't say. What did you get out of it?
03:21:31 What did you get out of it? Out of
03:21:32 Out of the relationship? I think love. What did she get out of it? I would say love, but she would probably dispute that.
03:21:47 She's getting a lot of heartache, upset, disorientation from this relationship at the moment. Do you accept that? It would appear so. Yes. She talks about her diary. Did you read
03:21:59 She talks about her diary. Did you read her diary? I'm not sure what that references. Okay.
03:22:04 Okay. It might very well be that her, as we've discussed earlier, my way of communication was to write and to express her feelings. So perhaps what she's saying is this email is part of her diary, her expression of feelings.
03:22:16 her diary, her expression of feelings. Do you recall having read her diary? I don't recall it. I think there's some reference to it later to be fair. I'll I'll come on. Can we go to that now then? Um if I can skip to um the email of the
03:22:29 Um if I can skip to um the email of the 26th of September 2006, which is on page 11. This is another email from her.
03:22:56 And on the first paragraph, she is effectively apologizing profusely to you. She talks about, "I'm sorry for all the [ __ ] I've brought to you.
03:23:10 And I fly out of my head too many times when I get pieces of glass to try and bring me back home to Earth.
03:23:25 And she explains again in in paragraph 2, "My diary is really full of things to explain or explore why I may feel the way I feel at times, how hurt and all that, but really it hardly takes enough
03:23:36 that, but really it hardly takes enough time to think about you at all. And I'm sorry for have been so selfish." And in the last paragraph, she says, "So take care, take your time, do what you
03:23:47 take care, take your time, do what you feel is best for you, and I'm always here waiting for you to give you a kiss and teach you silly Sesame Street songs, whether as friends or lovers.
03:23:58 whether as friends or lovers. So it appears from this sequence of emails that you've withdrawn. you're not communicating with her and she's apologizing for whatever she feels she has done
03:24:10 has done but saying you take your time do what's best for you is that it clears it's clearly evident of the fact that again this is a relationship and there are difficulties but those difficulties are on both sides this is
03:24:21 difficulties are on both sides this is not clear just a one-way street she's thinking about you she's thinking about what you need and giving you the space to do what is best for you did you
03:24:32 space to do what is best for you did you give her
03:24:35 give her well-being any consideration during this time.
03:24:37 time. Do you have a response to this email?
03:24:45 Um, no we don't. doesn't appear, at least we don't have any response to the emails. And from Maya's evidence, she's provided
03:24:56 And from Maya's evidence, she's provided all the emails that she had from you, the communications back and forth between you and you don't respond again to this email. That's that's in particular, that's the issue she's
03:25:07 particular, that's the issue she's complaining about, isn't it? That you're not communicating. That's what she appears to be suggesting. Yes. Yeah. So, do you accept that you didn't reply to this email? I don't know. I don't can't I don't know whether I responded yes or no.
03:25:19 whether I responded yes or no. Do you accept that it's likely that you didn't given that Maya has exhibited the email commu communications between the two of you? There's a possibility. Yes.
03:25:30 There's a possibility. Yes. And in that way, is it fair to say that you weren't giving very much consideration to her well-being at this time? No, I wouldn't say that. I would just
03:25:41 No, I wouldn't say that. I would just say that the absence of an email doesn't necessarily indicate there's a lack of care. It's just that it hasn't been expressed by way of the email or it hasn't been expressed to her according to what she's writing in the
03:25:52 according to what she's writing in the email to you. That's open to interpretation. Well, does it seem fairly clear that she's saying, "Look, you haven't been communicating." That was in the last email and now
03:26:04 was in the last email and now you've got my diary. Take your time. I don't want to put you through any [ __ ] I'm here waiting for you when you're ready.
03:26:14 ready. So your question is, sorry, does it does it appear to be that that's the situation that you're you're in at this stage? It appears that as I because I've already said, you've got a relationship that's clearly in difficulty and you've
03:26:25 that's clearly in difficulty and you've clearly got two people who have fundamentally been quite difficult with each other. Would you say that you'll be more difficult with her than she is with you?
03:26:39 than she is with you? It would appear so from the from what we've seen of emails. Yes.
03:26:45 The reference to Sesame Street songs at the end of that email, is that a reference to selfharming carving letters into her skin? I don't know. But we've discussed an
03:26:57 I don't know. But we've discussed an email earlier on where she says that she's sitting in the cafe, I believe it was, and she mentions the Sesame Street. I don't know what it's referring to specifically within the context of this email.
03:27:16 Is it your evidence that this is a two-way street? She does have things to apologize about as much as you had,
03:27:26 had, or do you accept that this is a very vulnerable woman? She's done nothing wrong and has nothing to be apologizing for given the way that she has expressed
03:27:39 for given the way that she has expressed you've been treating her in the emails. My evidence is that it's it was a very difficult relationship.
03:27:48 Is it fair to say that you were doing only what you thought was best for you with no thought to her interests? No.
03:28:00 Can we move to um page 12, please?
03:28:06 So, this is where we get a response to that last email, not the not the one before. Um but this is a response from you on the 26th of September, 2006.
03:28:36 It's the second half that I'm most interested in.
03:29:05 Okay. Um, so here you recognize um that she is selfharming it appears because you say that um I don't like it when you start
03:29:16 that um I don't like it when you start to think about hurting yourself. I don't like it that you consider hurting yourself and think it's normal to do so. I'm hurt because I feel guilty that you feel that way. And then I'm mad at myself because that isn't my
03:29:28 myself because that isn't my responsibility that you have the choice about what you do with your body. It's your choice, not my decision. And that extends to all the stuff beyond you causing yourself pain, which I think is
03:29:40 causing yourself pain, which I think is selfish and irrational. But I don't want you to hurt or bleed or cry. And I don't want to cry either or feel sad or feel responsible for your pain. I want you to
03:29:52 responsible for your pain. I want you to be happy and loved and cared for. And I want to trust.
03:30:01 You were wanting to trust her, but were you giving any consideration about whether she could trust you? Well, I think looking at that email, the it is your choice, not my decision is
03:30:13 it is your choice, not my decision is clearly an expression of care on my part.
03:30:18 Are you not distancing yourself and saying it's not my responsibility that's up to you don't bother me with this? No, it's not that at all. I think what's being expressed there is that clearly if I said if someone is selfharming or
03:30:30 I said if someone is selfharming or self-injuring if I say if you say to someone don't do it I'm not sure certain what the reaction is to me this reads clearly like I'm not sure what to do here. I've got no idea how to deal with this but I'm also not in a position
03:30:42 this but I'm also not in a position where to control you or tell you what to do.
03:30:45 do. Did you make any effort to try and be with her and see her physically? She's been asking you in previous emails to to come around to see me, to spend time with me. Let's go and do normal things.
03:30:57 with me. Let's go and do normal things. Or were you relying purely upon these short emails back in response to her to express uh uh your
03:31:08 express uh uh your suggestion of of that it being love and caring to her? Well, this appears to be there is clearly from reading this there's appear to be some distancing taking place. So you accept that you are trying to
03:31:20 So you accept that you are trying to distance yourself from her. What I'm what I accept is that the email would appear to indicate there is some form of distancing taking place at the end then you say I want to say good night and tell you that your angel
03:31:32 good night and tell you that your angel is looking after you still. Is that a reference to you? Are you the angel in this
03:31:37 this in this in this in this scenario? And who will look after Gabriel's tears? Is that a reference to you, Gabriel? I would expect so. And expecting her to look after you and
03:31:49 And expecting her to look after you and your sadness. Again, I make the point this is a relationship that's in great difficulty. There is hurt on both sides. Um, you knew by now of her religious
03:32:01 Um, you knew by now of her religious background. Is that right? That she was a Christian. I'm not certain. If if you have something right say that's the case. Uh, it's just in her witness statement. She said that she told you about her Christian background. And when you asked me that question, I
03:32:12 And when you asked me that question, I said I was unaware of that. So you're saying you're unaware of that throughout your relationship? I don't recall Maya ever
03:32:22 openly or telling me or professing um a position of faith
03:32:33 by putting yourself in the position of Gabriel. In Maya's oral evidence to this inquiry, she said it's not just as an angel, it's the the archangel, the head angel.
03:32:46 archangel, the head angel. Are you characterizing yourself as a a godlike figure, somebody to be woripped, doted on, and obeyed? Absolutely not. No. I think what you
03:32:57 Absolutely not. No. I think what you have here is at some level there is a degree of care that exists between Meer and I, and it's been expressed in a particularly curious way.
03:33:10 curious way. But to be clear, what it does say is that there is a degree of care on my part and that I'm concerned about this individual, but at the same time, I'm not in control of her. I cannot control
03:33:21 not in control of her. I cannot control what she does to her body.
03:33:25 Can I take you please to an email on page 18 of this exhibit, which is another email from Maya to you on the 20th of November, 2006.
03:33:39 And it's the penultimate paragraph where again she talks about I say again it's the she she talks about taking sleeping pills.
03:33:52 taking sleeping pills. She says, "What I mean is when you upset me to the point I think about taking lots of sleeping pills, and if that doesn't work, just taking any combination of pills in an unhealthy
03:34:03 combination of pills in an unhealthy volume to knock me out and flirt with death.
03:34:08 death. It's not your fault. However, I can't take you out of the picture.
03:34:28 At the bottom of that paragraph, she says, "Even though I know my mommy and daddy love me and lots of other people too, somehow it doesn't matter because what matters is if you loved or not."
03:34:45 Did you get the sense that you were responsible for her
03:34:54 her pain and potentially a risk that she might try and take her own life? No. But in retrospect, I very clearly recognize that I did cause my a great deal of pain.
03:35:06 deal of pain. Did you look at this email and seriously think about what you ought to be doing in terms of protecting this woman?
03:35:18 woman? This is going to seem again I have to ask you, do you have a response from me to this email?
03:35:26 Um, yes, there is a response on the 20th. Um, and it's at 5 in the afternoon. So, just over half an hour later.
03:35:44 Can you call that, please?
03:35:48 It's uh at page 21.
03:36:14 Thank you.
03:37:01 Okay, paragraph four in particular addresses um the pain that she feels and the way that she expresses that verbally and physically. And it talks about her uh
03:37:13 physically. And it talks about her uh writing letters in her flesh. And it says, I I also start to feel guilty wondering if it's my fault that you are behaving this way. And then that guilt makes me feel that I need to stay away
03:37:25 makes me feel that I need to stay away from you.
03:37:27 from you. And it also says that I also, this is me writing, I also find it hard to deal with you when you're in such pain or rather to deal with the way that you express your pain verbally and physically. That suggests to me there is
03:37:38 physically. That suggests to me there is care on my part and I clearly do not know how to handle what is going on. At that point, did you think that this has gone way too far? I need to extricate myself from this relationship.
03:37:50 extricate myself from this relationship. I can only say that this is a relationship that clearly is very damaging to both parties involved. Um, but you you continue to reassure her of your
03:38:02 you continue to reassure her of your feelings and you you don't actually comment, although this is in response to the earlier email, you don't comment about the uh risk of overdose. You don't talk about the the sleeping pills or
03:38:13 talk about the the sleeping pills or flirting with death. That doesn't appear to be addressed in this specifically in this email. But as I say to you, you can see quite clearly I also find it hard to deal with you when you are in such pain. There is a recognition that she is in pain or
03:38:25 recognition that she is in pain or rather to deal with the way that you express your pain verbally and physically. That suggests to me there is a degree of care on my part and I clearly do not know how to handle what is going on or how she is apparently
03:38:36 is going on or how she is apparently dealing with how she is feeling. What did you do in terms of trying to help her?
03:38:43 help her? I think we continued a verbal war of words by way of email and text. But how how did that help her? I I don't imagine it did and I don't
03:38:54 I I don't imagine it did and I don't imagine it it helped me either. Did you consider the potential serious consequences not only for her but for you if she were to kill herself?
03:39:08 I cannot imagine the impact of if Maya had decided to kill herself, nor would I ever have wished her to do so. Did you consider any consequences for
03:39:19 Did you consider any consequences for you operationally or for the SDS? Clearly not. No.
03:39:29 So that may be an appropriate time to it would break. Um we'll take an hour for lunch and start at quart.