The afternoon session concluding the evidence of anti-arms-trade and civil-liberties activist Emily Apple, co-founder of Fitwatch. Counsel takes her through the SDS undercover officers who reported on her - HN60 (Dave Evans), HN3 (Jason Bishop), HN118 (Simon Wellings) and HN18 (Roberts Hastings / Rob Harrison) - as she repeatedly challenges the accuracy of their intelligence and links exaggerated reporting to over-policing, wrongful arrests, strip searches and lasting trauma. She closes with a wide-ranging statement on the SDS's legacy for political policing, the targeting of journalists, corporate spies and the repression of protest today.
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00:19:39 Good afternoon everybody. This afternoon's proceedings are being live streamed but after the usual 10 minutes delay, those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear in the hearing room but only after 10
00:19:51 the hearing room but only after 10 minutes have elapsed since the event they're reporting. They may not be used for recording or photography. Scramble.
00:19:58 Scramble. Emily, I'd like to move on now to consider HN60 who used under cover name Dave Evans. And we know that he was deployed at between 1998 and the end of
00:20:11 deployed at between 1998 and the end of 2000
00:20:12 2000 and 5.
00:20:14 and 5. In terms of your interaction with HN60, how would you describe that, please? Um he was an acquaintance. I knew him. I remember him which is like more than
00:20:26 remember him which is like more than some of the others. Um I
00:20:30 Um I went to HN3's house quite a few times and HN60 was there. Um
00:20:37 Um we were together in Scotland at the G8. He was one of the many undercovers that were Scotland for the G8 and I was arrested with him and HN3 in the
00:20:48 I was arrested with him and HN3 in the minibus. Um In Scotland, we went to a smashy dough protest together which I remember because he was eating weak francais and they weren't vegan. They'd like become
00:20:59 they weren't vegan. They'd like become not vegan and as someone in the animal rights movement, I was really surprised that he didn't know that. And we went to the vegetarian shoe company cuz he apparently wanted to buy new boots, which he didn't buy. If we go back to your description of of
00:21:12 If we go back to your description of of meeting him at HM3's Duff Flats, because we know that they shared
00:21:23 We know that they shared their residence. Could could We heard in HM3's evidence that he said that
00:21:33 that you would only attended um a few times. Could you just help us with how many occasions precisely that you attended that location, please? Um quite a few
00:21:44 that location, please? Um quite a few times.
00:21:45 times. Um
00:21:47 Um I don't know, maybe about a dozen altogether. I mean, I can't remember every single time, but um
00:21:54 um we would go around there and said, you know, I think HM3's probably he'd have like these like big deep um bags of um DVDs.
00:22:05 bags of um DVDs. Um
00:22:06 Um And that was mostly where I encountered HM60 was um at his flat and how I knew him.
00:22:15 him. Um so, yeah, it was quite a few times. It wasn't like we were around there every week, but it it was, you know, I did go there quite a lot. But in in terms of anything of significance, it really was when you were arrested at the
00:22:26 really was when you were arrested at the G8 that's Yeah. Yeah, that that's my sort of
00:22:30 sort of That was probably the longest sort of period of time that I spent with him was around the G8 and also the um uh Smash the System um
00:22:37 um demo. Cuz cuz other than that, it was like kind of you know, someone someone's flatmate that happens to be there when you're there and you have a conversation with them and, you know, it's fine. But it yes, that wasn't that wasn't a kind of
00:22:49 yes, that wasn't that wasn't a kind of sort of relationship or an organizing relationship. I I I I did I would like us, please, if we can turn to MPS0738 067. So, this is at your tab B140.
00:23:00 067. So, this is at your tab B140. These are Operation Her notes of a meeting with HN60 in 2013.
00:23:10 in 2013. Uh and I'm just going to go, please, to page four of this document. It's the last paragraph on this page, please. We'll just expand that.
00:23:25 If this is the note of the meeting interview with HN60. And he says, "HN3, don't know of a
00:23:36 And he says, "HN3, don't know of a specific incident. Could have been after true spies. Couldn't emphasize the release of minute details could ruin it all. We were desperate not for people to have a template of the SDS. HN3 and I moved in
00:23:49 template of the SDS. HN3 and I moved in similar areas, but did not know each other. Uh we spoke about it and with the whole office, it was asked, "Why not come and live with us?" And then he says this, "Uh you would be on your guards 24
00:24:02 this, "Uh you would be on your guards 24 hours if you went into a squat. You'd be totally immersed. I was exposed more to HN3 side rather than he exposed to mine. I had a van, picked up posters. We did
00:24:14 I had a van, picked up posters. We did not want to fall into something that we could not get out of. Met Emily Apple and so sharing was for sensible reasons. Uh LAA did not go to G8 as a group. G8
00:24:28 Uh LAA did not go to G8 as a group. G8 got nicked in Scotland. Drove the minibus as a shuttle service. And then this, Emily had a sprog and HN3 and I were coming towards the end of our time.
00:24:40 were coming towards the end of our time. Being arrested throws up problems. And then going uh on. So, in terms of the description there, of course this is a note form, but the account HN60 gives um about you
00:24:53 but the account HN60 gives um about you and your child uh um
00:24:57 um in the vicinity at the time that would you accept that that is that is accurate? Yeah, I mean I mean that's I mean in terms of the G8 that's accurate, yes. And I find I find it
00:25:09 yes. And I find I find it quite peculiar that he says that sharing was for sensible reasons because he met me. Um
00:25:15 me. Um I don't quite understand what he meant by that, but I don't think we'll ever know. Okay.
00:25:22 Uh before moving away from HN60 and HN3, I want to ask about your reaction to another document. It's MPS0076491,
00:25:34 MPS0076491, please. So, this is at your tab B106. This is a request for HN3 and HN60 uh to be commended. And I would like to
00:25:47 uh to be commended. And I would like to explore the impact on you reading the following on page if we begin with page two, but if we can perhaps have pages two and three up on the screen. Uh
00:25:58 pages two and three up on the screen. Uh can you see just before Well, just below the middle of the page, over the lengthy period of RH, so Red Herring's HN3's his code name, over the lengthy period of
00:26:10 code name, over the lengthy period of RH's operation, he provided extremely high-grade intelligence concerning the activities of RTS and other similar militant environmentalists and anarchists who were intimately involved
00:26:23 anarchists who were intimately involved in with planning and participating in such high-profile public order, which included the violent Stop the City demonstration in the city of London known as J18, 18th of June 1999, N30,
00:26:38 known as J18, 18th of June 1999, N30, 30th of November 1999, a demonstration which gravitated to Euston Station where a police vehicle was set alight, numerous police officers were injured, a large number of violent protesters were
00:26:49 large number of violent protesters were arrested. The protests held against the bi-annual defense systems and equipment international DSEI exhibition held in Chertsey more recently in Docklands and the gorilla gardening protest held in
00:27:01 the gorilla gardening protest held in Parliament Square in 2000. And then if we look at the next few words, please. At these events were the inspiration of RTS
00:27:13 inspiration of RTS which consisted of a very small group of activists which included Helen Steel, Robin privacy privacy and Emily Apple. It must be emphasized that RTS has
00:27:26 It must be emphasized that RTS has always been an extremely security conscious and clandestine group which operated by inviting activists into the inner circle only by personal recommendation and a proven track record
00:27:38 recommendation and a proven track record in activism all of which RH successfully established over the 8 years of his operation. And so here is the request for what both HM3 and HN60 to be
00:27:49 for what both HM3 and HN60 to be commended. But in relation to the focus on HM3, that description where you are named specifically in the
00:28:00 where you are named specifically in the application for commendation, what what what is your response to reading that what in terms of impact that it has on you given the effect that you've described earlier this morning and seeing your name as part of the
00:28:12 seeing your name as part of the justification for him to be awarded a commendation. I mean, I was disgusted that he'd been nominated for commendation. Um
00:28:23 Um yeah.
00:28:25 yeah. It sort of no it was mainly really angry. It was just kind of like you infiltrated our lives, you spied on my family. Um you facilitated a load of the things that we did happening.
00:28:36 that we did happening. And yeah, you're being recommended for a commendation. But I think the other thing to say is we're talking about high-grade intelligence, great tradecraft. And I
00:28:47 intelligence, great tradecraft. And I wasn't involved. I was involved in organizing the protest at Dicey. I attended G18. I attended N13. I attended guerrilla gardening. I was not involved in organizing them. So, even in the request for commendation, we've got
00:28:58 request for commendation, we've got faulty intelligence about me. Um, they can't even get that right. I mean, it's beyond ridiculous how bad this intelligence was, how badly it was
00:29:09 this intelligence was, how badly it was disseminated, how badly it was represented by management. Um, because they you know, they didn't have any reports on me being involved in organizing three out of the four things
00:29:20 organizing three out of the four things that they list. Um, so yes, it was quite ridiculous. Um, but yeah, I I actually found it really upsetting that he was nominated for a
00:29:31 upsetting that he was nominated for a commendation. That. And in terms of impact, just before we leave the sort of G8 stuff, um, that arrest,
00:29:43 that arrest, it was a massive policing operation. Omnibus was surrounded by police who, um, put their riot shields right up against the windows. We had dogs barking at us. We had a helicopter overhead. I was in the van with my baby. We were
00:29:58 was in the van with my baby. We were just driving people around. And
00:30:02 And um, in HN6's accounts, he was thinking about all the overtime that he would get if he was remanded. Whereas, I'd already
00:30:13 if he was remanded. Whereas, I'd already been threatened with social services if I couldn't find someone to collect my child.
00:30:17 child. Um, I was facing the prospect of being remanded when I had a baby that I was breastfeeding. And there is no consideration of any of that. And what happened at that G8 arrest was
00:30:30 happened at that G8 arrest was deeply, deeply traumatic and had a massive impact on me and my ability to organize with my child. And all he could think about was his overtime. And it's disgusting.
00:30:41 In terms of what you've just referred to overtime and another officer moving now, we can take that down to H and 118. Um undercover name Simon Wellings
00:30:54 undercover name Simon Wellings gave evidence last week and I understand you were able to to see his evidence. Yes.
00:31:01 Yes. So, one of the things that he was explaining at the beginning of his evidence, why he wanted to be an undercover officer, was the
00:31:11 was the financial side of things as well having having an an effect on it. And again, just in terms of what you've just described, uh the the impact of hearing about officers referring to to overtime,
00:31:24 about officers referring to to overtime, what what does what does that mean to you when you you hear that being referred to as as a positive reason for these individuals wanting to become undercover officers? I
00:31:35 wanting to become undercover officers? I mean, it's outrageous. We're talking about a unit that was trying to disrupt and our movements, that was trying to invade our privacy,
00:31:48 that was trying to invade our privacy, and they were in it for the money. Um when everything starts to fall apart at the end, you know, a lot of the questions around overtime. Um
00:31:58 Um you know, we were all doing this voluntarily because we really deeply passionately cared about the things that we were protesting about. We cared passionately about the social change
00:32:10 passionately about the social change that we wanted to create. Um
00:32:14 Um and
00:32:16 and these officers were worried about that overtime and how much money they could get out of it. And how much they could justify their deployments with their exaggerated intelligence. I mean,
00:32:27 exaggerated intelligence. I mean, Wellings did nothing in the second part of his deployment. You know, he said he sat on the internet. He cut and pasted emails. He cut and pasted posts from easily accessible websites. Um I think he said the higher-ups didn't
00:32:39 Um I think he said the higher-ups didn't know where to look. Well, it wasn't very hard.
00:32:43 hard. In terms of H and 118, you don't have any or what what recollection of any do you have of him at all?
00:32:53 at all? Oh, none whatsoever. Um, I was definitely at the G8 summit protest with him in 2002 cuz we're both on the same video and I found him on that video.
00:33:06 video and I found him on that video. I know from the reports that he was at the suffragettes demo in August 2002. Um,
00:33:14 Um, but I have no memory of him whatsoever.
00:33:21 When Guy Taylor gave his evidence, I don't know if you saw Guy Taylor and one of the things uh that
00:33:28 that he was asked about was in terms of his recollection of H and 118 and when precisely did he meet him? And there was
00:33:40 precisely did he meet him? And there was an occasion where 118 describes being in an an elevator and having a discussion with Guy Taylor about going to New York. This is in
00:33:52 about going to New York. This is in 2002.
00:33:54 2002. Uh and the way in which H and 118 described it is that that was in in some respects a bit of a turning point in infiltrating globalize resistance. He and I don't want to go into the
00:34:06 He and I don't want to go into the details of what happened in New York, but he produced 118 produced a report. Uh, I wonder if we can put it up on screen as MPS 3008004.
00:34:17 It's at so your tab B6. It's his report dated the 8th of February 2002 because we can see that it um
00:34:28 it um it relates to the trip to New York but the it's a report which refers
00:34:37 refers to to you uh in there. So this is one of the one of the earliest references in the report by 118
00:34:47 118 to you. But do you do you remember in broad terms that that trip to New York in 2002? Oh yeah, in broad terms I I definitely remember the trip.
00:34:58 I definitely remember the trip. Um
00:34:59 Um I was really curious cuz this is actually one of the earliest pieces of disclosure that I I received from from the inquiry because I don't have any sort of documents that introduce me that
00:35:10 sort of documents that introduce me that say I turned up at a meeting or anything like that. And so the earliest reporting I've got is actually from um Simon Wellings and not from HN3. Um
00:35:21 Um So yes, I definitely remember going to New York. I'm quite curious around why Martin Hogbin's name has been removed. He was a corporate spy at CAT because that's who I was staying with at the
00:35:33 that's who I was staying with at the time.
00:35:34 time. And also that he does not I am noting having a special branch reference or anything
00:35:40 anything afterwards. Um I I don't I don't remember what he is describing in this report but I definitely remember going to New York. Um
00:35:49 Um It he refers to you by your full name so he doesn't say for example broad description of you or No. Emily surname No, it's it's really funny. He knows
00:36:01 No, it's it's really funny. He knows exactly who I am and this is what I mean about the missing reporting because I don't have anything that introduces me like that but he clearly knows exactly who I am in this report.
00:36:12 All right, and if we if we take that down please.
00:36:18 Another of early report from HN118. I wonder if you can please put up on screen MPS 0027912,
00:36:29 screen MPS 0027912, please. Uh so, this is at your tab B24.
00:36:44 Now, we're going to go through this report
00:36:47 report in some detail, so we can see this is a one of 118's reports on Globalize Resistance, in particular the Ariel Sharon protest outside Downing Street. So, members of
00:37:00 outside Downing Street. So, members of Globalize Resistance, London-based anti-capitalist group, were out in force yesterday evening, Monday the 14th of July, uh
00:37:07 July, uh to protest against the visit of the Israeli premier Ariel Sharon to Downing Street. Guy Taylor, the de facto leader of the group, uh had developed and deployed two pairs of scouts out onto
00:37:18 deployed two pairs of scouts out onto the ground in an attempt to discover which entrance and exit Special Branch would use to facilitate Sharon's visit. If we can just move down, this provide proved unnecessary as an arriving group
00:37:30 proved unnecessary as an arriving group of activists that included Emily Apple, not a GR member, but certainly willing to share useful information, were able to eavesdrop on a conversation being
00:37:41 to eavesdrop on a conversation being held in the street by senior police officers outlining the entire plan for getting Sharon's protection package in and out of Downing Street. Now, can you just help us
00:37:52 just help us with that, please? So, this is again an an early report uh from uh HM 118 and referring to you. Do you
00:38:03 uh HM 118 and referring to you. Do you know what that is a reference to? Does that
00:38:06 that uh I'll only Vaguely. I mean, it it it rings a vague bell. It sounds like if it's something I would have overheard, I would have shared. Um but only really rings a a vague bell.
00:38:21 In in terms of the way in which it's described, so it referring to a senior police officer outlining the entire plan for getting Sharon's protection package in and out of Downing Street. It sounds um
00:38:34 Downing Street. It sounds um from the wording of that, you're privy to as a result of eavesdropping some very specific information about the movement of
00:38:43 of Ariel Sharon. Again, does that ring any bells with you in terms of Not really. I mean, the entire plan, I think, would be an exaggeration because I think I mean, the senior police officers knew
00:38:54 I mean, the senior police officers knew who I was as well. So, if they were discussing their entire plan in front of me, that'd be a bit silly and I don't think they'd have done that. They they might well have given sort of some details over sort of timings or or
00:39:05 details over sort of timings or or something like that and um you know, if I heard something, yes, I would have passed it on, but you know, I don't remember it specifically and I and I certainly think, yeah, the entire plan is a massive exaggeration.
00:39:17 is a massive exaggeration. If we just read on in the the case, the intelligence gained made little difference as the attempted arrest of a protester deep in the crowd that gathered proved to be the catalyst for minor public disorder that rumbled on
00:39:29 minor public disorder that rumbled on for the next half hour or so. This culminated in the arrest of Taylor, who was attempting to lead a dash into Whitehall to carry out a sit-down protest.
00:39:38 protest. At least three others arrested were made arrests were made including the arrest of a Korean national and one ISM member. So, again, is this something that you recall in terms of the arrest that took
00:39:50 recall in terms of the arrest that took place?
00:39:52 place? Well, I remember a guy got arrested, but I don't know whether I heard about that later. I'm not sure that I was sort of there at the time. Um I don't think I stayed particularly
00:40:03 Um I don't think I stayed particularly long at that protest. Um
00:40:06 Um I think it
00:40:10 I I can't really remember. It's It's not one that sticks in my memory and I don't think we stuck around. I don't think we kind of felt that we were going to achieve much being there and I think we probably just left. And so, I'm just going to not going to go through all the
00:40:22 going to not going to go through all the report, but just the last two paragraphs here beginning, "It is important to note." So, when it is described here, "It's important to note that prior to the disorder, activists had been busily parceling
00:40:34 activists had been busily parceling through the crowd in both an attempt to both stir up the crowd and up the ante and gauge people's willingness to mount some form of direct action." "Instrumental in this endeavor were
00:40:45 "Instrumental in this endeavor were Taylor himself, Chris Nineham, Julie Waterson, Amy Jarret, privacy, Simon Wellings, privacy, and the visiting Virginia Regino. These individuals were also centrally involved once the
00:40:57 also centrally involved once the disorder broke out, in particular in whipping up the crowd in the attempt to de-arrest and trap the police officers carrying out the initial arrest." And from your description just now,
00:41:08 from your description just now, were you gone by this this point? Is this something that occurred after after you left, or is this something that you you recall and Well, there was no whipping up the crowd. There was nothing like that. Um there was, you know, like
00:41:21 like that. Um there was, you know, like no disorder, either. Um
00:41:24 Um You know, from everything that I know about what I remember and what what I know about the event, you know, this is an another example of this sort of exaggerated language. Um
00:41:35 exaggerated language. Um So, you know, like Globalize Resistance was a group that I had a working relationship with at times, but I wasn't involved in due to the sort of hierarchical nature
00:41:47 hierarchical nature of the group because that wasn't in way that I worked. Um
00:41:52 Um but I never witnessed anyone from GR whipping up a crowd or trying to provoke disorder. That just wasn't something that's happened.
00:42:03 that's happened. Um
00:42:04 Um You know, in terms of sort of Guy and stuff like that, that's not anything I have ever seen. You know, I've been on a lot of protests with Guy and have never seen him do anything like that. Um so
00:42:15 seen him do anything like that. Um so this feels again like a massive exaggeration. Um
00:42:19 Um and yeah, I it's it doesn't seem at all credible to me. I I mean I can't say in terms of what I witnessed cuz I really don't remember, but I definitely don't remember anything like that happening.
00:42:30 remember anything like that happening. One of the ways in which HM118 described himself as as webmaster of Global Eyes Resistance and his involvement in that side of things for Global Eyes
00:42:42 side of things for Global Eyes Resistance when he was undercover. And one of the uh
00:42:48 uh one of the things that was referred to was a newsletter called Resist. And what if you can just tell us a a little about this and and how
00:43:00 a little about this and and how it individuals who were not necessarily in Global Eyes Resistance would have been aware of online publications such as as Resist. Could you just help us with that, please? I mean everyone was
00:43:11 with that, please? I mean everyone was aware of different leftist publications and stuff like that. Some of them were just online, some of them would be handed out on demos. Um but other than that, I don't have a huge
00:43:23 but other than that, I don't have a huge amount that I I can add to that, but they know they'd have been very accessible. You have provided the inquiry with an article in Resist. I'm going to ask if we can
00:43:34 in Resist. I'm going to ask if we can put it up on the screen, please. It's UCPI-38159. So it's your tab A54. It is Emily, your exhibit 54. And we'll just put it up on screen and you'll
00:43:46 just put it up on screen and you'll you'll recognize it when you see it. So this is we can see at the bottom right-hand corner at www.resist.org.uk.
00:43:56 So we have Uh
00:43:58 Uh and was this was this typical of the the online
00:44:03 online Oh, I'd imagine so. I I can't really speak to what was typical of what Global Eyes Resistance put out online to be honest Um and and but I'd imagine so. And this example that you have produced we can see it is in relation to
00:44:17 we can see it is in relation to the topic that we were just looking at in relation to Ariel Sharon's visit. We can see Israeli leader branded war criminal on arrival in London. Ariel Sharon gets furious welcome and we can see the article by Simon Wellings. And
00:44:30 see the article by Simon Wellings. And we can see hundreds of people took to the streets to protest against the flying visit of the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and we can see the article
00:44:39 article drafted by H and 118 there. Yes, thank you. Can we take that down, please? I mean I would just say I think it's quite incredible to have these undercover officers writing articles
00:44:50 writing articles about these demonstration like they're putting in these intelligence reports telling one narrative then they're writing articles with another narrative and contributing
00:45:01 contributing to
00:45:03 to what you know, what we're saying to the political narrative as undercover officers I think is quite incredible.
00:45:11 I want to ask you some more about Fitwatch and before doing so I wonder if we can put up on screen UCPI 38142
00:45:19 38142 so your tab A38 it's Emily your exhibit 37.
00:45:33 I wonder if you could just help us with what this document is and just tell us a little more about your setting up Fitwatch, please.
00:45:46 your setting up Fitwatch, please. Yes, so
00:45:48 Yes, so a friend of mine went to came to a disarm DSE meeting and said that she wanted to try
00:46:00 wanted to try and do something about the presence FIT teams outside our meeting. So, she held up this piece of paper um in in front of the cameras. Um and she was arrested for it.
00:46:13 Um and she was arrested for it. And it was really noticeable at the meeting afterwards that there was a change in the atmosphere of the meeting that people felt more empowered. Um
00:46:24 that people felt more empowered. Um there was a real tangible difference um in our organizing from someone having actually stood up to the repression that we were facing outside. Um
00:46:35 Um and then she started getting more targeted by them as well um following that. Um
00:46:41 Um and I'd seen so many other people being put off from going to protests. I had people saying to me they
00:46:52 people saying to me they couldn't do what I did because of the attention I received from the Forward Intelligence Teams. Um I had to tell people when I used to facilitate meetings or trainings, I used
00:47:03 facilitate meetings or trainings, I used to have to tell people if you see me on the streets, you're very very welcome to come and say hello to me, but if you do it is really likely that within the next 5 minutes you will be stopped and
00:47:14 5 minutes you will be stopped and searched and you will have interest in you because of the Forward Intelligence Teams. And I had to give people that warning so they had informed consent over whether they wanted to come and talk to me on a protest or not.
00:47:26 talk to me on a protest or not. Um
00:47:27 Um I
00:47:30 I had got to the point where I'd already had um one mental health breakdown directly as a response to Forward Intelligence policing. Um they'd followed me into my dreams. I
00:47:42 Um they'd followed me into my dreams. I was having regular nightmares about them.
00:47:45 them. Um there were people who would say that they wouldn't come to another protest in London because of the behavior of the Forward Intelligence Teams. And the combination of that and seeing
00:47:58 And the combination of that and seeing the impact that just having someone holding up a bit of paper outside a meeting had um made me think that we needed to do something more that we we we actually
00:48:09 something more that we we we actually needed a concerted campaign to tackle the repression that we were facing. So, you know, it was a civil liberties campaign. It it was aimed at challenging the validity of having these officers
00:48:22 the validity of having these officers outside our meetings, of having these officers following around, and actually being proactive in trying to do something about that and to challenge the repression that we were facing.
00:48:33 the repression that we were facing. And we
00:48:35 And we ignored them for a long time. And part of the reason we ignored them was we didn't want a focus on the police to distract from the causes that we were protesting about.
00:48:46 protesting about. And so, one of the parts of this proposal as well was that we would or maybe go to other people's protests. So, like, of course there's we support, but like, we don't have so much capacity in different things that that
00:48:58 capacity in different things that that we can go to. So, for example, I went to quite a few animal rights protests to do fitwatch stuff and likewise
00:49:06 likewise um
00:49:07 um friends from there came in and did it at at some of our protests. Um
00:49:13 Um but it felt, as I said there, that once and for all we needed to admit they were a problem and the impact they were having on our movements. When 118 gave evidence, do you recall
00:49:25 When 118 gave evidence, do you recall that he recalled a couple of occasions when he saw you uh being pursued by fit officers. And I just want to ask you
00:49:36 officers. And I just want to ask you about the words that he used to see if you agree that in those instances he he whether he captured accurately what sort of effect this was having on
00:49:48 what sort of effect this was having on you. Because he's he said it struck a rather odd sight and he described you looking a little bit distressed and these words that they stuck to her like glue. Now,
00:50:01 that they stuck to her like glue. Now, 118's words there, does that capture well
00:50:05 well Yeah, what they were doing? he said that does capture something well.
00:50:09 well. Yeah, they were um Because if you think of someone being followed by the police, you might think oh you know like there's police sort of somewhere over there watching what you're doing or you know
00:50:22 watching what you're doing or you know there's some distance. What what what the fit used to do is they would be sort of right at my shoulder. There was sort of no nice space to maneuver. They I I remember protest where I was
00:50:33 I I remember protest where I was followed so closely that my friends couldn't walk next to me. It was incredibly incredibly intrusive. When the point was put to him in terms
00:50:44 When the point was put to him in terms of well, with all this reporting on you going to increase the amount of attention from fit officers. His response was yeah, I can see there's
00:50:55 His response was yeah, I can see there's a clear risk. You know, you can end up being very well traced was the word he used for being well traced if that makes sense. You could the amount of reporting
00:51:06 sense. You could the amount of reporting that went in would clearly have been done there and then he said this I hope there were checks and balances above that to try to ensure that those people were a legitimate target of that type of
00:51:18 were a legitimate target of that type of activity but I can see the risk. Yes. What was your reaction when he HM118 first acknowledged that there was a risk in over reporting on you
00:51:30 was a risk in over reporting on you leading to more attention from fit officers but in particular as well his reference to hoping that there were checks and balances. I mean in terms what he admitted and he admitted to the
00:51:42 what he admitted and he admitted to the chilling effect as well. I was glad that he he admitted and recognized that. I think anything that euphemistically hopes in some ways that there are checks
00:51:56 hopes in some ways that there are checks and balances in um
00:51:58 um police intelligence and how it is disseminated and how it is used is ridiculously naive. I mean, this inquiry has shown time and time again that there weren't any checks and
00:52:09 that there weren't any checks and balances. And in fact, it went the other way and it led to more and more targeting and more and more of an impact on my mental health.
00:52:20 on my mental health. Um
00:52:22 Um and it's why um C11 and the should be part of this inquiry so they can answer these questions themselves of what checks and balances were there. What were they getting from the reporting? Uh how was
00:52:33 getting from the reporting? Uh how was their reporting feeding both ways? It's it's you know, because it it it's cyclical. It you know, none of it exists in isolation. And then most definitely were not checks and balances. Then then you know, that's not the way this kind
00:52:46 you know, that's not the way this kind of intelligence works. And it's still not working to this day. Bearing in mind he his evidence in relation to what he saw, I'm going to ask if we could just go to MPS 0526933.
00:53:00 ask if we could just go to MPS 0526933. So, at your tab B89. So, these are authorities for his deployments from 2005
00:53:08 2005 and it's a bundle of these authorities. I want to go please to page 60 in in that document. So, it's your tab B89.
00:53:19 So, it's your tab B89. So, if we go to
00:53:24 Just wait for that to be put up on screen.
00:53:50 If we go to page 60 and it's bullet points one and three I want to ask you about.
00:53:59 So here RW so by this stage ring race is his code name RW continues to report on the anti-fit activist privacy and
00:54:11 on the anti-fit activist privacy and Emily Apple who wanted to disrupt the fit teams effectiveness in public order situations. There have now been several instances of activists setting out to frustrate the fit as they attempt to carry out their
00:54:22 fit as they attempt to carry out their duties. This has involved activity such as trying to physically obstruct the movement of the officers and holding up sheets or tarpaulins to block the photographers view.
00:54:34 photographers view. DCI Flood will take this difficult issue forward at a senior level to try and reduce its impact on future public order events. So you've described holding
00:54:46 events. So you've described holding objects up so that it prevents them filming or taking photographs. The reference is to trying to physically obstruct the movement of them. Is that was that part of the um
00:54:58 was that part of the um the fit watcher approach or what was done?
00:55:02 done? I mean not so much obstructing their movement, obstructing their ability to take photographs and and film people absolutely. And one of the things that we did and we did successfully
00:55:13 we did and we did successfully was to challenge the legality of their surveillance and whether because if you you know, we were
00:55:24 whether because if you you know, we were arrested quite a few times for obstructing police in the execution of their duty and putting them to the proof of what the execution of their duty is, what was the lawful duty and um, the legal basis
00:55:37 the lawful duty and um, the legal basis for them to be able to stand outside our meetings
00:55:40 meetings taking photographs of us. If we go to the third bullet point, it's not directly in relation to fit, but whilst we have this page up, you can see the third bullet point.
00:55:52 States that all activists attending the DSEI arms fair protest on the 11th of September were asked to regroup or converge on Canning Town bus station at 4:30 p.m. Historically, this type of
00:56:05 4:30 p.m. Historically, this type of assembly has seen the worst disorder at the DSEI protests and has involved activists setting off on fast-moving, free-flowing, snake march style dashes
00:56:16 free-flowing, snake march style dashes through busy road intersections and street party gatherings accompanied by a samba band and sound system. So, again, this is um, document in relation to authorizing HN 118. What would you would
00:56:29 authorizing HN 118. What would you would you say to the justification that, well, there is justification in having an undercover officer reporting on just those responsible for the quote-unquote worst disorder at these DSEI protests
00:56:42 worst disorder at these DSEI protests and describing, as it is here, these fast-moving, snake march style dashes through busy road intersections. What would you say to those who say, well, there is some justification, isn't
00:56:53 there is some justification, isn't there, for having someone in these groups? I mean, I find it quite hard to answer that seriously when you're talking about the worst disorder of all thing, a snake march and a samba band and a sound system. That's disorder? I
00:57:05 and a sound system. That's disorder? I mean, seriously? I mean, it's just laughable. I mean, this is just like trying to have a protest. I mean, dashes through busy road intersections.
00:57:16 dashes through busy road intersections. Like, we were careful when we occupied roads um,
00:57:20 roads um, and had people to stop traffic and and stuff like that. It wasn't just like people running through traffic. Um,
00:57:28 Um, and and to say, you know, this this would have been by 2007, I'm presuming, because we'd started Fitwatch.
00:57:37 Fitwatch. Um
00:57:39 Um and after
00:57:41 and after years of Desmond Icy being the main target of an undercover policing operation that is named on all the authorizations as the main target,
00:57:53 authorizations as the main target, the worst disorder that he can come up with is a free-flowing snake march with a sound sound of a band and a sound system.
00:58:02 system. I mean, that defies credibility that there is any need to infiltrate um protests that that do that. I mean, I
00:58:12 I I don't actually remember this plan either. I mean, I have no idea whether this is made up. That rings no bells to me whatsoever. Um
00:58:22 Um but it you know, but it's the point that I was making earlier about the way the police use the terms disorder and um public disorder to mean anything.
00:58:33 public disorder to mean anything. From a sit-down to actual things that could be classified as disorder. Um but I I can't see anything in this that could possibly justify um infiltrating a group. If we turn,
00:58:46 um infiltrating a group. If we turn, please, Can I make one other comment about something else on this page? Because there's um
00:58:53 um the comprehensive contact details about someone centrally involved in organizing with CAD. Um cited as an example of her visit excellent strategic and tactical intelligence. Um
00:59:06 strategic and tactical intelligence. Um that person I went to the CAD archives recently. That person did police liaison. She filled out forms for protests with all her her contact details on them and liaised with the
00:59:17 details on them and liaised with the police. That was hardly And so, looking at this, what which of bullet points are you referring to in this form? Thank you. Fourth. Yes. If you can expand that so we can all see that.
00:59:27 that. Yeah, I I I just wanted to point it out because, yes, she filled out forms for police liaison on um the all her contact details were on. This is not an example of excellent strategic and practical
00:59:38 of excellent strategic and practical intelligence. Um and and while we're talking about this, I I think it's really important to state, you know, like CAT is an NGO. Um we organize protests, we do advocacy work, we do legal work.
00:59:51 work, we do legal work. Um I do press work now. Um and I was initially told that CAT was targeted because of me and I've seen so much evidence, like
01:00:02 I've seen so much evidence, like evidence be- before any of the first reports on me appear that that say that CAT was targeted.
01:00:08 targeted. Um one of the managers' reports that I probably won't be able to find a note for. Um oh, yeah, HM49. Um they say that um HM3 was authorized to
01:00:22 they say that um HM3 was authorized to target CAT because the group was known to hold protests and demonstrations which had the potential to result in serious public disorder. Um so, I think there's a very credible case that CAT as an NGO
01:00:33 case that CAT as an NGO um
01:00:34 um um was targeted and, you know, having things like this that is ridiculous intelligence because it's information that was known um about someone from CAT. And this was
01:00:46 um about someone from CAT. And this was after when I wasn't working with CAT, so I wasn't connected to CAT at all at that point. So, they don't even have that excuse by this point. So, in terms of we're looking we were
01:00:57 So, in terms of we're looking we were looking at various of these bullet points including this one, but if we look at
01:01:01 look at the second paragraph at the top, the last sentence, it's headed UCO RW has submitted 23 reports in this review period. Some of the more notable reports are as follows. So, what we have is a
01:01:12 are as follows. So, what we have is a summary of what's described as Yeah, and if they're the notable reports, I dread to think what's in the non-notable reports. Could we take Could we go to page 128 before leav- leaving this document,
01:01:23 before leav- leaving this document, please?
01:01:24 please? It is paragraph two on page 128.
01:01:28 128. So, in terms of refers to HM118's role. And it says, "An extremely useful role performed by RW is the provision of briefings on issues around
01:01:41 provision of briefings on issues around activism and protests from the activist standpoint that can be used to brief officers involved in public order policing." And we can see includes CO11 and FIT teams.
01:01:54 CO11 and FIT teams. And
01:01:55 And again, in terms of this particular officer making briefings to the FIT team or
01:02:04 or providing intelligence that to some extent was disseminated to FIT teams. But again, going back to what you pointed out at the beginning, you yourself were not aware of this
01:02:16 yourself were not aware of this particular undercover officer, HM118. Um no, no, I wasn't. Um but also, you know, this cyclical thing of if you've got
01:02:28 of if you've got um
01:02:29 um someone like 118 who is either he is exaggerating or his managers are exaggerating um
01:02:40 um his intelligence and then that's being used for briefings. Then we've got a situation where we're again perpetuating that cycle of exaggerated intelligence
01:02:53 that cycle of exaggerated intelligence then being used by CO11, being used by the FIT teams to then further repressors and using that exaggerated intelligence as
01:03:05 exaggerated intelligence as justification for what they were doing on the streets. So, we've got this self-fulfilling prophecy of exaggerated intelligence and then repression of our movements. Um
01:03:16 movements. Um I don't know what useful briefings he could provide, really, um given W- One of the things that you mentioned was Selfridges. C- Could you just help us with with that in again with the context
01:03:28 with with that in again with the context of you not knowing 118, but c- Could you just help us with your recollection of that particular event that we know that HM 118 reported on, please? This is 3rd of August, 2002.
01:03:41 on, please? This is 3rd of August, 2002. 2002. Um so, we organized Well, we organized um regular protests in the food hall of Selfridges um because they
01:03:53 Selfridges um because they stopped wine and other foods um from um Palestinian occupied territories um that were sold as Israeli produce.
01:04:04 that were sold as Israeli produce. And we wanted to draw attention to the fact that Selfridges was doing this um to stand in solidarity with Palestinian people um
01:04:16 people um to
01:04:18 to make the point that you know th- this is produce um on stolen land um from a population that had been violently repressed and forced out of their homes, so that then
01:04:31 their homes, so that then um
01:04:32 um you know, these products could then be produced and sold as Israeli. Um so, we we did a series of protests highlighting that where we would go into the food hall, we'd cause some
01:04:43 go into the food hall, we'd cause some minor disruption. I think sometimes we'd take um food through the checkout, sometimes we'd shout or blow whistles and stuff like that. Um at the time um
01:04:54 and stuff like that. Um at the time um there was no legislation that actually meant that was legal. Like, you could go and do stuff like that, and it was perfectly legal. Um so, we did this quite regularly. We sort of had a campaign against Selfridges to do this quite regularly.
01:05:06 Selfridges to do this quite regularly. And um
01:05:08 And um with the one in August, we'd organized um with quite a few different groups to, um, come together to make it a bigger protest than the sort of small group ones that we've been doing previously.
01:05:21 ones that we've been doing previously. Um, on the day, um, I remember I wore a wig and I got into the store, um,
01:05:29 um, and got chucked out again. Um,
01:05:33 Um, remember I was wearing smart shoes and I got blisters. It's like just the weird things that stick in your mind. Um, but I remember the policing was quite often violent at those protests. I don't remember, and I
01:05:45 those protests. I don't remember, and I I don't have anything to add to the descriptions of what happened with with Simon Wellings, but I do remember violent policing. I remember I got punched in the head at at one of them. Um,
01:05:55 Um, but yes, it was it was a protest. Again, in terms of that, um, suggestion of, there being justification for these
01:06:06 there being justification for these types of action and the and the the volume of the different types of action that you've described, uh, again, what is your response to someone who who would say,
01:06:17 would say, "Well, it is justified to have someone in the group reporting on events that you've just described in relation to Selfridges and the disruption there, that it is a proper
01:06:28 disruption there, that it is a proper there's a proper policing purpose in that." What what would you say to those who Well, first of all, they were just protesting. They were legal protests, um,
01:06:36 um, we've got to stop othering protest. We've got to stop saying protest as something to be suppressed, to be repressed, to be reported on. Protest is
01:06:47 repressed, to be reported on. Protest is a beautiful and essential part of our democracy, including disruptive protest. What we were doing wasn't illegal, and also,
01:06:57 also, they weren't infiltrating the organizing. They were there, you know, like Wellings just turned up on the day. Um,
01:07:05 Um, I and from, um, the accounts of others who did witness this behavior seem to be the one provoking any any problems on the ground as well. So,
01:07:15 So, um
01:07:17 um yeah, I cannot see any justification. You know, we're talking about like minor disruption. If you think about all the money,
01:07:26 money, all the resources that go into, you know, into this or any undercover policing operation, but the seriousness of what these people are doing,
01:07:37 are doing, if it is ever justified, should be so serious. Not creating a minor bit of disruption in Selfridges. I want to ask you about climate camp.
01:07:50 I want to ask you about climate camp. So, this is August 2007. You will remember back to 118's evidence. And by that time, he knew that his deployment was coming to an end. You remember he was quite
01:08:01 to an end. You remember he was quite reluctant in fact to be deployed into climate camp, but he was his evidence was he was told to do it by Frankie Flood, so he did. I'm going to ask if we can put up on screen MPS 0075691.
01:08:15 can put up on screen MPS 0075691. So, at your tab B 113. So, this is a report
01:08:21 report from
01:08:22 from 118's dated 13th of August 2007.
01:08:29 So, it says there are approximately 250 persons present at the climate camp. Some factions from the north and Midlands coalesced around Simon Lewis et cetera are conciliatory towards the
01:08:41 cetera are conciliatory towards the police presence. And then this, others spurred on by PWEVSP and Emily Apple are keen to force any patrols off the camp as soon as they have sufficient numbers.
01:08:53 as soon as they have sufficient numbers. Reckying has taken place and is concentrating on access routes for a mass walkout on Sunday. Action on Sunday is likely to involve a five-finger type
01:09:04 is likely to involve a five-finger type event. Now, this reference to uh certain uh factions being conciliatory towards the police, but describing you in a group who are these
01:09:16 describing you in a group who are these were keen to force any patrols off the camp.
01:09:20 camp. How how
01:09:22 How how fair is that a description of what you wanted to achieve? Oh, that one I'd say is fair. Um Well, you know, we climate camps, we we created these beautiful autonomous
01:09:34 created these beautiful autonomous areas um
01:09:36 areas um on occupied land and we had kitchens, we had consensus-making decision processes, we had big meetings. There was absolutely no need to have um
01:09:50 There was absolutely no need to have um police patrols um on the camp, but especially having fit officers on the camp. So,
01:09:57 camp. So, um
01:09:59 um you know, the everything about everything that I said about the fit in terms of the harassment, in terms of trying to identify people, in terms of terms of trying to gather intelligence on people. Um
01:10:11 Um there was absolutely no justification and no need to have these officers walking around where people were meeting, where people were sleeping,
01:10:22 meeting, where people were sleeping, where people were eating. Um and
01:10:26 Um and I didn't think that they should be allowed into that space or should be welcomed into that space um and that they shouldn't be there.
01:10:37 Could we move to HN 18? Uh Roberts Hastings um undercover name Rob Harrison deployed August 2004
01:10:48 Rob Harrison deployed August 2004 to December 2007. Is it right again that you have a very little memory of uh HN 18? Could you just help us with looking back
01:10:59 looking back what recollections that you have of him in terms Oh, I've I've got no recollections of him either.
01:11:08 Um no, other than well, I mean obviously I know I got arrested with him, but I don't remember him from like the meeting beforehand or anything else. So yeah, I really don't remember him.
01:11:19 really don't remember him. In your statement you say that you had friends in the groups that he was involved in and that included State of Emergency, No Borders and ISM.
01:11:30 Borders and ISM. Mhm. So you had friends in those yeah, I had friends in all of those groups. And I'm I'm obviously glad we've heard from ISM. I think it's a shame that we're not hearing from anyone from State of Emergency or No Borders given that they were they
01:11:42 No Borders given that they were they were the targeted groups. I was uh I'd moved out of London by that point, so I wasn't involved in the sort of day-to-day organizing. I mean I think if I'd been in London, I would have been
01:11:54 if I'd been in London, I would have been involved more, but I wasn't, so I was sort of tangentially involved. People would tell me when things were happening and I'd get involved in things, but I wasn't involved in the organizing.
01:12:05 organizing. I'd like to go to one of H and AT's authority documents that names you. It is MPS0526935.
01:12:14 So it's at your tab B87. Could we please turn to page 81 of that document? And it's it's paragraph five on page 81.
01:12:42 So if we can see three paragraphs up from the bottom of that page, you see in the middle of the third line beginning significantly CW. So H and 18's code name was Common Wheels,
01:12:55 H and 18's code name was Common Wheels, so CW for Common Wheels. So, it states here, "Significantly, CW has identified two anarchist activists, Emily Apple and Privacy, who have launched a campaign
01:13:07 Privacy, who have launched a campaign called Fitwatch, intending to disrupt and ultimately prevent the use of police forward intelligence team officers." And then this, "The main effort has been simply to obstruct FIT's evidence
01:13:19 simply to obstruct FIT's evidence gatherers and photographers. However, intelligence has provided that there are aspirations to discover FIT officers' personal details
01:13:31 personal details with a view to targeting their homes and families. There are also efforts to recruit activists to the cause." I- I- Is that accurate, the reference to
01:13:45 I- I- Is that accurate, the reference to the aspirations to discover FIT officers' personal details with a view to targeting their homes and families and to recruit activists to
01:13:56 families and to recruit activists to this cause? No. Um we had no aspirations to discover personal details, and we definitely did not want to target their homes and
01:14:08 not want to target their homes and families. That wasn't something we discussed. It was not part of the campaign. This was a very, very forward-facing um open campaign. We were literally standing in front of the cameras that um
01:14:23 standing in front of the cameras that um of these officers that knew us. Um there would have been absolutely zero point in us targeting their homes and families. It's not something I would have done. I would have had no desire to
01:14:35 have done. I would have had no desire to target their families. Um
01:14:38 Um And it would have been the wrong target, you know, like they they were the officers on the streets. Um they they weren't in charge of the targeting and what they were doing in that sense, but also it was yes.
01:14:51 that sense, but also it was yes. It was ridiculous. there any explanation you can think of, anything that's someone could have said or discussions that could have taken place
01:14:59 place that would have given given the wrong impression in terms of exploring how uh uh this uh
01:15:08 this uh information or this allegation that's of the aspirations of the group or you um found its way into this authorization document? Is there anything that was said that might have been
01:15:19 said that might have been misinterpreted? No, nothing from me. Um
01:15:23 Um There might have been like I don't know. He might have overheard some silly conversations in the pub that didn't mean anything, but not from me. I I didn't talk about it. Um It wasn't part of the campaign. It
01:15:35 It wasn't part of the campaign. It wasn't something we talked about doing. Um someone not connected to the campaign. I I don't know. You'd have to ask him. I don't know where he got it from, but it certainly wasn't from me or the other person mentioned in this
01:15:46 the other person mentioned in this report at all. It It is utterly fabricated. Um and
01:15:53 Um and had I believe a very very serious impact.
01:15:58 impact. Um
01:16:01 Um what impact did you do you think it it had then? So around this time so obviously as I set out the Forward Intelligence Teams really did not like me very much. Um but around this time um with I C 2000
01:16:15 Um but around this time um with I C 2000 and around the time of like climate camp and then I C 2007 there was a shift in policing from that very very personal targeting and yes violence and arrests, but to really
01:16:26 violence and arrests, but to really personalized vindictive violence. Um You know, to the point where so many times after I was arrested I came out of custody really like battered and bruised
01:16:37 custody really like battered and bruised and traumatized. And
01:16:41 And I was frequently strip searched. I
01:16:47 was treated as if I was this incredibly violent threat. And I think a lot of it comes down to
01:16:59 And I think a lot of it comes down to this type of intelligence because we also know this was disseminated to CO11. It was taken further. It didn't just stick in the report. It it went back to CO11 and Frankie talks about taking
01:17:11 CO11 and Frankie talks about taking things forward. Um there's discussions about how they're going to deal with this. Um you know, the police I mean quite obviously like the police
01:17:22 I mean quite obviously like the police if they are presented with intelligence that some of their officers are going to be targeted in their homes took it seriously. But the way that was taken seriously like firstly it was made up. Um but the way that manifested on the
01:17:34 Um but the way that manifested on the streets um was extreme violence. And I think this is still having an impact today. So
01:17:45 impact today. So one of the things that sort of started happening around this was I started getting markers for violence. Um
01:17:53 Um and in 2010 um I was again wrongfully arrested. And on that occasion I was dragged
01:18:05 And on that occasion I was dragged straight into custody um held face down on the floor by two male police officers while a male custody officer watched from the door. They strip searched me.
01:18:16 strip searched me. Um
01:18:17 Um they left me with a paper suit to wear. They left me naked cuz they discovered I was on my period. Um
01:18:24 Um and I received an apology. I received compensation. They found it was an unlawful strip search.
01:18:33 search. And um that it Is Is shouldn't have happened.
01:18:37 happened. Um
01:18:37 Um but I also received a marker for violence.
01:18:40 violence. Um, and that marker is still on my record today. And
01:18:47 And it was another form of punishment. It was putting these violence markers on our records. That is still impacting. It's the product of this kind of intelligence
01:18:58 intelligence and this level of exaggeration and threat that led to the way that I was treated in custody that is still impacting the way that I'm placed today.
01:19:09 impacting the way that I'm placed today. So, the the the impact doesn't stop in 2007. It doesn't stop in 2010. It is still continuing to this day. Thank you. Can we take that document
01:19:21 Thank you. Can we take that document down, please? I I want to ask you about some of
01:19:24 some of H and 18's reporting. Could we please turn up MPS 0072517? So, your tab B104. This is an intelligence report from H
01:19:36 This is an intelligence report from H and 18 dated the 6th of May, 2007.
01:20:09 Sorry, 0073517.
01:20:13 Thank you.
01:20:33 Yep. Yes, I am. Now, if we have a look at this on Saturday, 28th of April '07, a public meeting was held in rooms 3C at the University of London Union to discuss
01:20:45 University of London Union to discuss the possibility of organizing a protest against the Defense Systems and Equipment International DSEI scheduled to take place at the L cell Excel center in East London in September 2007.
01:20:57 in East London in September 2007. This meeting had been widely advertised across internal email lists. And then it refers to State of Emergency
01:21:08 And then it refers to State of Emergency and No Borders and Indy Media. The meeting was advertised and the times given says this. Those attending the meeting had been forewarned to expect a police presence
01:21:20 forewarned to expect a police presence and upon their arrival they were met by a forward intelligence team. Emily Apple and then number of names redacted took it upon themselves to
01:21:31 redacted took it upon themselves to challenge the behavior of the FIT with Privacy being particularly unhappy at being photographed. This took place whilst individuals attending the meeting sat in room 3C waiting for Emily Apple
01:21:42 sat in room 3C waiting for Emily Apple to begin the meeting. It soon became apparent that a struggle was taking place outside of the University of London Union and activists made their way outside in time to see Privacy being
01:21:53 way outside in time to see Privacy being arrested. A young white male approximately 14 years of age was also arrested. Once this was over, the meeting soon began with the following identifiable individuals being present.
01:22:06 identifiable individuals being present. Emily Apple, if we just go over the page, please.
01:22:12 And we can see others whose names are protected with privacy redaction boxes. And then it refers I wonder if we can just zoom out so we can see the entire page.
01:22:26 And then just this in the next paragraph. The meeting began with a short presentation being given by Privacy, which outlined the history of DSEI and provided a suitably veiled history of the active activities that
01:22:37 history of the active activities that had been undertaken against the companies taking part. Emily Apple then proceeded to ask those present if there was any real desire to engage in action against DSEI, which met with a very
01:22:48 against DSEI, which met with a very subdued yes. Apple then stated that if there was no real enthusiasm shown with the corresponding willingness to take on organizational tasks, it would result in the responsibility falling on those who
01:22:59 the responsibility falling on those who had done so previously, something which many were keen to avoid. Apple then stressed the need for those present to engage as widely as possible with groups and individuals who might be interested in taking part in some form of organized
01:23:12 in taking part in some form of organized protest. This resulted in the suggestion being made that Stop the War Coalition be approached, which met with a muted response. Now, just pausing there, and if we can zoom out, this description we have 118's reporting of a a meeting in
01:23:26 have 118's reporting of a a meeting in April 2007 at the University of London Union. In terms of accuracy, would you accept it is an accurate report at least in terms of that meeting? No. Why not?
01:23:38 in terms of that meeting? No. Why not? So,
01:23:40 So, as I say, um in terms of people waiting for me to start the meeting, I I I remember actually leaving my friend
01:23:51 remember actually leaving my friend outside and having a conversation with her because I knew that I was to facilitate the meeting. So, um I knew I needed to go inside, but I was worried about her, and I wanted to check on her first.
01:24:03 first. Um
01:24:05 Um I don't remember if we I don't think we actually went outside to see um her being arrested. Um I'm not entirely sure about that.
01:24:16 about that. Um
01:24:18 Um And this was a meeting I was talking about that you know that that that actually the whole energy of that meeting changed because of that times for the fit team and I remember it being a really positive meeting.
01:24:30 a really positive meeting. Um, so
01:24:32 Um, so I don't recognize the the description of it that that's given here at all. Um, I don't understand what he means by a suitably veiled history. I mean,
01:24:44 a suitably veiled history. I mean, that's a weird phrasing. I've no idea what that means. Um, but it's like there's something being hidden. There was nothing being hidden.
01:24:53 hidden. Um,
01:24:54 Um, I I it's very possible that I said to people, cuz I quite often say this to people, as I mean, we'll know, that if we want something to happen, because people quite often come to
01:25:05 because people quite often come to meetings and they want to see things happen, but they would seem to think they're going to miraculously manifest themselves or someone else is going to organize it. So, I did quite often say to people, if we want this to happen,
01:25:16 to people, if we want this to happen, what needs to happen? Like, you know, like there are certain things that need doing to make this plan happen and and people need to take on responsibility for doing some of those things. That's something I say quite a lot. Well, the the the report ends, it says
01:25:28 Well, the the the report ends, it says that the meeting then broke up with a small core group meeting in the Yulu bar. Whilst no further decisions were taken regarding DSEI, this social interaction gave Emily Apple the
01:25:39 interaction gave Emily Apple the opportunity to undertake the role of matriarch for the benefit of those present.
01:25:45 present. That description of what happened after the meeting, what's your um reaction to to what is set out there, please? Well, I'm going to start with the role of the matriarch because that
01:25:56 the role of the matriarch because that is absolutely disgusting sexist language that should have no place in a policing report that would not be made about a man. Oh, and I just think when I first read it, I thought that was because I
01:26:07 read it, I thought that was because I was a mother that he was adopting that language, but I've since seen him use that language about someone else in another report who as far as I'm or might be another person as
01:26:19 far as I'm or might be another person as far as I'm aware isn't. Um
01:26:23 Um everything that I have heard about um Hassim Hasham Hastings he
01:26:33 he is a
01:26:36 is a deeply
01:26:38 deeply deeply
01:26:41 deeply disturbing. Like he makes my blood run cold hearing what he did to my and then seeing this language in that report he
01:26:52 seeing this language in that report he has a problem with women this this officer. He really really does. He he is chilling. You know, it's like I have no words to like I'm quite scared by the fact I knew him even though I
01:27:04 by the fact I knew him even though I don't remember him given what he has done. But I think that that kind of language is so indicative of that sort of problem with strong women and that comes up quite a lot in the state of emergency. The reports that he does not
01:27:16 emergency. The reports that he does not like the fact there are strong women in in that group and he comments on it. Um in terms of the small group core group meeting, that's also rubbish. It was just kind of like we had a meeting.
01:27:28 just kind of like we had a meeting. People who wanted to go to the pub went to the pub. Um it wasn't a kind of like oh now we're going to have a small core group but let's go to the pub. It was just like who wants to go to the pub and have a drink?
01:27:39 drink? In in terms of we've heard reference to this a number of times that after meetings that people naturally would go to the pub and have some drinks and the conversation would continue then. And
01:27:51 conversation would continue then. And sometimes the point is made that well actually it's in the discussions that happen afterwards in some sort of like pub environments, that's when real really useful information it is it
01:28:04 real really useful information it is it is divulged. And so it is all very well going to public meetings, looking what's on various uh web pages or email groups.
01:28:16 on various uh web pages or email groups. Uh but again, in terms of this suggestion of justification, that really you need someone in there to participate in that pub chat at the end, because that's where you get the really useful information. What was your response to
01:28:28 response to that suggestion that that it's important to have people that in undercover officers in those environments where you get as here the core group discussing important things about the group.
01:28:40 things about the group. Um I mean, I don't think we were or we weren't on this occasion. I said no to spite of the decisions were taken. Um yeah, I mean, we we talk about politics in the pub. Like we we will continue organizing and I mean, we're very
01:28:51 organizing and I mean, we're very boring. We talk about politics a lot. Um Uh uh we talk about organizing a lot, but
01:28:57 but um
01:28:59 um I you know, the way I put it in in the second statement that I wrote, um you know, activists, like the rest of the population, we talk in pubs. Um and and and if you're looking at it
01:29:10 Um and and and if you're looking at it with no filter, then you can't extract anything from those pub conversations whatsoever. I've heard people in pubs claiming they've done things that I know they haven't
01:29:21 done things that I know they haven't done. I've heard people claim they're going to do things that I know that they have no intention of doing.
01:29:29 doing. Um for
01:29:32 Um for we've had
01:29:34 we've had some amazing plans that have come out of pubs,
01:29:37 pubs, um all of which the ones that I can think of were not impacted at all by any undercover policing or any reporting. But for every good plan, there's 20, I'd
01:29:49 But for every good plan, there's 20, I'd say probably more, probably more like 50 or 100 that are utter rubbish. They're things that we discuss as a joke. They're things that we talk about
01:30:01 joke. They're things that we talk about to let off steam. Um there's stuff that we'd only say after a few pints that we had no intention of doing whatsoever.
01:30:12 had no intention of doing whatsoever. Um
01:30:14 Um and the other thing, you know, there was a culture of sort of machismo and and bravado around some of those conversations in the pub. It was a way of letting off steam.
01:30:25 of letting off steam. Um
01:30:26 Um and
01:30:28 and to any other undercover officer or you know, any informers of that, they say, "Oh, I heard it in the pub." And there is no other corroboration of that piece of intelligence, it needs to be
01:30:41 piece of intelligence, it needs to be treated with the utmost suspicion because
01:30:44 because nine times out of 10, what was discussed in the pub either didn't come to anything
01:30:49 anything or was people letting off steam, people making false claims. It just did not work like that. If
01:30:58 If anything was going to come out of one of those pub discussions, there would have been further meetings, there would have been sober meetings. I don't do actions wrong, so it's not like we were having a
01:31:09 wrong, so it's not like we were having a few pints and then going out and doing something. If an idea came up in the pub, then and we actually wanted to take it further and in the cold light of day,
01:31:20 it further and in the cold light of day, we thought, "Actually, this is a really good plan. We we want to do something with it." I mean, the the whole proposal for
01:31:27 for Disarm DSE 2003 and building a large coalition of groups to oppose the arms fair, um
01:31:38 to oppose the arms fair, um came out of we were in a pub, but you know, we we were somewhere we're drinking and we were talking about how we got more people involved in opposing
01:31:49 we got more people involved in opposing um the arms fair. That that was a really good thing that came out of us sort of just drinking and and and it also resulted in a very public-facing proposal that was was on the internet um
01:32:01 proposal that was was on the internet um and didn't need um, with that one a corporate spy, um, infiltrating it. Um, but but that was the culture at the time. There there was
01:32:12 time. There there was there is no credibility to saying I ever heard something in the pub whatsoever. And then that would be the same with the majority people who go to the pub and people have a drink and they say slightly silly things or they
01:32:25 say slightly silly things or they exaggerate stories, um,
01:32:28 um, and yeah, it's just incredible. If we can take that document down, I'd like to ask you about a leaflet that you've provided to the inquiry. It's your exhibit 32. It's UCPI 38137.
01:32:42 your exhibit 32. It's UCPI 38137. So that's at your tab A33.
01:32:57 Now, in terms of this particular event, is is is this something that you recall? Oh, I remember the event itself, yeah.
01:33:07 yeah. It's a sticker, not a leaflet. So in terms of again, the the question about justification of reporting on groups that you're
01:33:18 of reporting on groups that you're involved with. Here is a flyer, Sack Parliament, No More Wars, Blockade the Houses of Parliament, October the 9th, 2006. And again, it's that same question.
01:33:33 If someone were to say, "Well, there's there's some justification. This is a group
01:33:39 group um,
01:33:40 um, saying Sack Parliament, Blockade the Houses of Parliament. There's some justification in having, um, intelligence on what that group were going to do." Would you have Would you agree with that? I
01:33:52 agree with that? I zero benefit whatsoever to talk about a blockade,
01:33:58 blockade, um, which, you know, didn't happen. Um But no, I mean I mean this was a publicly advertised action. Um
01:34:05 Um There was no need to have someone in the organizing group for it whatsoever. But even worse than that is that we've got someone in the organizing group who
01:34:16 got someone in the organizing group who is then exaggerating intelligence um that we've got reports on that show that exaggerated intelligence was then being fed into
01:34:28 intelligence was then being fed into CO11 that was then informing the policing response and then resulting in a massive policing operation that was very repressive that I got arrested at.
01:34:40 very repressive that I got arrested at. Um
01:34:42 Um that that was all entirely unnecessary. I mean
01:34:46 I mean The the the bigger question is you know, if you talk about police resources, you know, like how much money was wasted? I mean, let alone the repression of our movements,
01:34:58 alone the repression of our movements, all that kind of stuff. Even if you just wanted to take it from the point of view of
01:35:04 of the intelligence wasn't good. It led to so much money being wasted on policing that it's ridiculous. Um
01:35:15 that it's ridiculous. Um There there's no credibility to You know, and this is protest. This is this isn't about anything serious. This is about having a protest. It was a protest against the war. It was a
01:35:26 protest against the war. It was a protest against um the unjust SOCPA legislation that banned all protests in Parliament Square that since been repealed.
01:35:36 repealed. Um and it was highlighting the civil liberties infringement of the fact that if you live in a democracy, you should be able to go to the heart of that democracy and protest in front of the
01:35:48 democracy and protest in front of the building that is making those laws. And the fact that that so-called legislation prevented people and made it illegal to go to where legislation is made and
01:36:00 go to where legislation is made and protest is such a huge infringement of our civil liberties and that's what that that protest was highlighting. May I ask you about another of the exhibits that you have provided? It's your exhibit 34. It's UCPI 38139.
01:36:15 your exhibit 34. It's UCPI 38139. So, it's your tab A 35. I wonder if you can bring that up on screen. We've heard reference to Indymedia. And so, this is an Indymedia article in
01:36:26 so, this is an Indymedia article in relation to we can see M 19. So, this is in relation to a demonstration on the 19th of March, hence M19 in 2007.
01:36:40 hence M19 in 2007. And so, just orientating ourselves to what what we can see here. So, BearingPoint's noise demo, state of emergency.
01:36:51 demo, state of emergency. And we can see there in fact the location that we can see there is next to where we are now. It's in Paternoster Square.
01:37:03 Paternoster Square. And we can see yesterday to mark the fourth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, a surprise noise demo was held outside the London offices of BearingPoint, the consultancy company chosen by US Aid
01:37:15 the consultancy company chosen by US Aid to draft Iraq's new oil law. Can you just explain to us what what we're seeing in that particular photograph? Could you just talk us through what is what we're looking at there,
01:37:27 what is what we're looking at there, please?
01:37:27 please? Yeah, a very small legal demonstration outside offices to highlight the fact that we
01:37:35 that we engaged in an illegal war to for what for oil and the companies that were then profiting from
01:37:46 were then profiting from the carve-up of Iraq's resources. Um Iraq's is a very legal small protest, but again is completely exaggerated in in the reporting. Well, if we just have a look
01:37:59 reporting. Well, if we just have a look at the lower photograph as well, please, just to
01:38:03 just to So, in terms of just broadly in terms of of numbers, we we can see obviously some It looks like security staff, but it in terms of numbers how many more people were were there
01:38:14 how many more people were were there than we can see there, just so we have an idea.
01:38:16 an idea. a huge number. Um
01:38:19 Um probably I'd say 20 of us maximum. Um
01:38:24 Um That that's absolute maximum it it it was it but it was very small. It it was a noise demo. Um you are allowed to or you should be allowed in a democracy
01:38:35 or you should be allowed in a democracy to gather outside a company and have some banners and bang some drums. And we can see some of the description people use drums, whistles, saucepans, uh alarms, and their own voices, um as
01:38:48 uh alarms, and their own voices, um as described there. Please, can we take that down? And now can we move to MPS0073073? Um so, at your tab at B102,
01:39:00 at B102, this is H&H 18's report
01:39:04 report uh in relation to uh what we have just looked at having been reported in the IndyMedia. So, we can see this is what H&H 18 states. Monday, the 19th of
01:39:17 H&H 18 states. Monday, the 19th of March, 2007. On Monday, the 19th of March, activists from the State of Emergency Collective gathered outside the offices of BearingPoint in Paternoster Square, London, uh to protest at the activities
01:39:29 London, uh to protest at the activities of the company within Iraq, uh which are viewed by members of State of Emergency as representing little more than a capitalist corporate rape of the country's resources. This demonstration
01:39:40 country's resources. This demonstration was not publicized prior to the demonstration taking place and represented the recognition by members of the collective that it was not capable of organizing a large-scale meeting on the scale of the Sack
01:39:52 meeting on the scale of the Sack Parliament demonstration in October 2006.
01:39:57 2006. Now, just pausing there, the reference here to
01:40:01 here to the demonstration not being publicized prior to it taking place.
01:40:09 place. Again, in terms of what is set out here, obviously H and 18 was able to provide the intelligence of what was happening. But again, in terms
01:40:21 what was happening. But again, in terms of the justification, if
01:40:24 if H and 18 was not providing this report, there would have been it would have been impossible for anyone from a policing perspective to plan for this event. But what would you say in relation to that?
01:40:35 what would you say in relation to that? Why would anyone from a policing perspective need to plan for that event? We're talking about a small number of people having a noise demo outside of a building.
01:40:45 Like there is no policing purpose in that whatsoever. There is no need for the police to know about that. The police do not need to know about every protest that we hold and that we organize. Protest is organic. It
01:40:57 organize. Protest is organic. It happens. It does not need to be policed. If there had been no policing of that protest whatsoever, if no police had turned up, we would have stood outside
01:41:08 turned up, we would have stood outside the building for a few hours. We would have made some noise. We would have gone home and that that was the point of the protest.
01:41:16 protest. It was perfectly legal. It was small. There is absolutely no need for the police to know about it or to have a
01:41:27 police to know about it or to have a policing response, let alone infiltrate the group to report on it and to exaggerate Um, the reporting and the threat of it in advance as well.
01:41:40 threat of it in advance as well. We usually break at 3:30. Before we do so, can I just ask you please about what language because you referred to HN18's language as just one um brief report I want to ask you about. It's at
01:41:51 want to ask you about. It's at MPS0076438, please. So, it's your tab B133.
01:41:57 B133. It's HN118's uh sorry, HN18's report at
01:42:03 at dated the 5th of November, 2007. Uh Bash the Rich, Saturday, 4th November, 2007. Can we turn to the second page, please? And it's the last paragraph.
01:42:15 And it's the last paragraph. Can you see where it says the activities of Fitwatch were also subjected to scrutiny with some individuals believing that whilst the idea of the group is worthwhile, uh the current
01:42:26 worthwhile, uh the current implementation is ineffective and lacking focus. Uh some ascribe this to the personalization of the campaign by Emily Apple, thereby rendering the group
01:42:37 Emily Apple, thereby rendering the group subject to her whim and pleasure and those of her erstwhile fellow activist privacy. Some activists feel that Apple's apparent insistence on getting arrested at every opportunity
01:42:48 getting arrested at every opportunity renders her liability to those possibly working with or in close proximity to her. So, this language such as um the group being subject to your whim and
01:42:59 the group being subject to your whim and pleasure
01:43:01 pleasure in terms of accuracy, what's your response to that language? I mean, whim and pleasure, what a stupid expression. Um wasn't very pleasurable. Um but no, I
01:43:12 wasn't very pleasurable. Um but no, I mean, it was a group that anyone could get involved in. The whole The whole point of Fitwatch was that it was a tactic that that anyone could could get involved in. Um it certainly wasn't subject to
01:43:27 Um it certainly wasn't subject to anything that, you know, I suggested strategies. Um I wrote some of our, um, articles and I was on the streets doing stuff. Um,
01:43:39 Um, but I think this is really actually links back to something I wanted to say about both M and 19 and Sack Parliament. So, on this particular event, I was
01:43:50 So, on this particular event, I was arrested because I had to answer bail, um, that same day. And we walked down the road and the police tried to impose a kettle. I had a bail sheet, um,
01:44:02 a kettle. I had a bail sheet, um, there's some footage somewhere me showing the police, um, this bail sheet. And I was trying to say to these police officers, "I need to leave this kettle because I need to go and answer bail. If I don't leave this kettle, you're going to nick me for being in breach of bail."
01:44:14 to nick me for being in breach of bail." And they refused to let me leave. So, I went to the back of the protest and I tried to do the same thing. Instead of letting me just leave peacefully and answer bail, I was arrested for breach
01:44:25 answer bail, I was arrested for breach of the peace. Um, so, you know, this was another what I've described as arrests. Um,
01:44:32 Um, there was utterly no, you know, they're blaming me and and there's, um, report from 183 that does the same thing of somehow blaming me for the way that
01:44:43 of somehow blaming me for the way that the police were targeting me. Also, um,
01:44:47 Also, um, at this point, I,
01:44:51 I, you know, I wasn't getting arrested for the what all the time. Um, that was before all that started happening. And
01:45:01 And in relation to Sack Parliament, I was arrested because the police tried to form a, you know, the police were moving into form a kettle. I didn't want to be arrested and I didn't want to be part of the kettle. So, I moved to the
01:45:12 part of the kettle. So, I moved to the back of Parliament Square where I was tackled by forward intelligence officers. I was thrown to the floor and I was arrested as an organizer of the protest despite not living in London or
01:45:24 protest despite not living in London or having anything to do with the organization. There was a clear targeting of organizers on that day. The police kettled everyone in Parliament Square and sent in snatch squads to
01:45:37 Square and sent in snatch squads to um
01:45:38 um um to nick people. They then took the details of um
01:45:44 um people that they didn't arrest as an intelligence gathering operation um supposedly on the basis that they might be reported for an offense. Again, the the you know, I wasn't charged.
01:45:55 the the you know, I wasn't charged. Um uh but they were very targeted arrests in what is described in one of the documents as being planned as a robust policing response.
01:46:07 robust policing response. Um at M19, um I'd left the main group in Parliament Square and I was standing at the gates of the square handing out leaflets um
01:46:18 of the square handing out leaflets um you know, about the issues. I was just engaging politely with a mem you know, with members of the public talking to them about bearing point about the plunder of our earth's resources. I was having conversations
01:46:30 resources. I was having conversations with people. I was leafleting. I ran out of leaflets and so I went back to the main group to get some more leaflets.
01:46:37 leaflets. Um
01:46:38 Um when I got back out, the fit said to me, "If you go back into the square again, you will be arrested for breach they had put section 14 conditions on the protest by this point." They said you'll be
01:46:50 by this point." They said you'll be arrested for breach of section 14. Um then a few minutes later, I got told that if I didn't go and join the main protest, I would be arrested for section 14. So I got completely contradictory
01:47:02 completely contradictory directions and uh you know, I was just handing out leaflets. So I carried on handing out leaflets and then um within sort of 5 to 10 minutes
01:47:13 sort of 5 to 10 minutes uh van load of City of London cops showed up and again, threw me on the floor and arrested me. Again, no charges. Um and I find this kind of
01:47:25 charges. Um and I find this kind of language on insistence on getting arrested really really deeply offensive and deeply problematic. Um,
01:47:36 Um, you know, it is blaming me for the times I have been targeted, the times I have been wrongfully arrested, the times I have tried to exercise my democratic right to protest and the police have
01:47:47 right to protest and the police have suppressed that right and assaulted me and imprisoned me and
01:47:55 there you know, there there is no scenario where I am insisting on getting arrested. I know my rights, I will argue my rights, I may be annoying, but I am not insisting on getting arrested and
01:48:06 not insisting on getting arrested and that is such an offensive way of talking about a series of arrests and incidents that I found I found and I still find at times deeply traumatizing. Um, and and just so
01:48:19 traumatizing. Um, and and just so dismissive. I I want to move on to your arrest and H and 18's arrest at the DSI car park.
01:48:30 DSI car park. So, again, I wonder if that's a convenient moment to have a a break before going on to that topic. Yes, of course. 10 minutes? 10 minute break.
01:51:14 Mhm.
01:55:04 Mhm.
01:56:59 Mhm.
02:00:49 Mhm.
02:02:44 Mhm.
02:04:13 Emily, I'm going to ask in fact if we can put your statement up on screen at this point. It's page 125, please, of Emily's
02:04:24 It's page 125, please, of Emily's statement. I wonder if we could expand paragraph 7.44, please.
02:04:37 Sorry, 7.44. Uh
02:04:40 Uh It's my mistake. I've got Yeah, given you the wrong page number, but please can we go to 7.44, the paragraph. Thank you.
02:04:55 So, in terms of context and and the the importance of the events I'm going to ask you about because you set out here in your statement this that the risk assessment
02:05:07 statement this that the risk assessment describes
02:05:09 describes how HN3 and HN60 were arrested whilst enacting their exit strategies. It also describes how HN30 was the supervisor and cover officer for Rob Harrison, so HN18, and that in her
02:05:23 Rob Harrison, so HN18, and that in her opinion, quote, "Senior management used the perceived mismanagement of this arrest to close the unit." It also emphasized that Rob Harrison was
02:05:35 emphasized that Rob Harrison was arrested for a minor public order offense. And so, in terms of its significance in relation to the closure of the SDS. So, if we do go back,
02:05:46 of the SDS. So, if we do go back, please, thank you, to page 125, I just want to go through with you, please, uh what happened at DSEI. And you've set out in your statement an overview of
02:06:00 set out in your statement an overview of this
02:06:01 this action. And if we just go through it because you we picked up with you leaving the hospital on the Monday night traveling to a squat in Stepney Green. And you say
02:06:12 to a squat in Stepney Green. And you say that there was a group of you had arranged to meet there to finalize the planning's for the action which was due to take place on on Tuesday morning. Is that right? Um that's right. Um
02:06:24 that right? Um that's right. Um I think in terms of the sort of headspace I was in leading into this, I think it's actually important to go back to the Monday very briefly. Um so, on the Monday during the day, I
02:06:38 Um so, on the Monday during the day, I had um gone with a friend just have a walk around the Excel Center because they put all different closures in place ahead of ISIS and we just wanted to have a look at the the general area and what was going on.
02:06:50 area and what was going on. And I was stopped by the FIT team. Um I was handcuffed for a stop and search. Um
02:07:00 Um and then I was accused of breaching bail conditions. They were bail conditions that had been dropped by the court um the previous week. I told them this um
02:07:11 the previous week. I told them this um and they didn't listen and they didn't check
02:07:14 check um and instead arrested me for breach of my bail conditions. Um I was kept on the floor waiting for a van to take me to West End Central.
02:07:25 van to take me to West End Central. Um so, it took about 2 hours for us to get there. Um when we, you know, searched at the scene,
02:07:33 scene, um when we got to the police station, one of the FIT officers claimed that he said that I was fiddling with the back of my trousers and he believed I had a concealed weapon.
02:07:44 concealed weapon. Um this, you know, I've got no record of carrying weapons. I've never carried a weapon on a protest. He wouldn't like He would have known that. It was just purely vindictive. Um it resulted in
02:07:57 purely vindictive. Um it resulted in another
02:07:58 another um full strip search, which again, I got compensation for at a later date and for the wrongful arrest. Um I was fingerprinted by force even though I told them that
02:08:10 though I told them that um
02:08:11 um you know, breach of breach of bail conditions isn't a criminal offense, so there's no actual right for the police to take your fingerprints. Um and I couldn't put any weight down on my wrist afterwards.
02:08:22 my wrist afterwards. And you know, after a couple of hours at the police station, I was eventually, obviously, released without charge cuz I hadn't done anything. I went straight from the police station
02:08:33 I went straight from the police station to Capital Radio because I was doing a media interview about DSE, and I sort of just made the interview. I went from there to a protest at a hotel that was connected to DSE.
02:08:45 connected to DSE. And then my friends persuaded me that I should go to the hospital and have my wrist x-rayed. The officers followed me to the hospital. It's noted in my medical records that
02:08:57 medical records that um the police were there, that the medical staff were, you know, outraged that there were police following me there. Um we managed to lose them in the hospital. My friend knew his way around the hospital really well.
02:09:09 the hospital really well. And so, when we pick up at the start of this line, I'd had quite a long day. So, really, in the way you've described it, had really been through a lot even
02:09:21 it, had really been through a lot even even before this day. That's why I thought it was important to add that bit of context right after I left the hospital. There was a lot that led up in that day to me leaving the hospital on the Monday night. And
02:09:30 And you you set out there, and this is just the second sentence, 7.1, "Our plan was to get into the DSEI car park and see how far we could get. Ultimately, we
02:09:41 how far we could get. Ultimately, we wanted to get into the Excel center, although we knew it was unlikely that many or even any of us would be able to enter the building. In many ways, it was
02:09:52 enter the building. In many ways, it was a symbolic action." Is is that right? Oh, yeah, yeah, completely. Uh you say it had been I had been on a recce with a friend sometime in the run-up to DSEI, and we'd identified a small pedestrian entryway to the car
02:10:04 small pedestrian entryway to the car park, which we correctly thought would be less policed and would give us a better chance of getting close to the arms fair. When we arrived, a group of us ran across the car park towards the
02:10:15 us ran across the car park towards the entrance, and as we did so, uh some of us were assaulted by the security guards. We were all arrested and later charged with aggravated trespass. One of
02:10:26 charged with aggravated trespass. One of those arrested with us was Rob Harrison. So, looking back up on that now, do you remember who HN18 was in
02:10:37 who HN18 was in No, I don't didn't really know anything about that. I mean, there there were a few people at that meeting the night before that I didn't know. So, but they you know, everyone there was
02:10:49 but they you know, everyone there was trusted by someone else that I knew, but there were people there that I didn't know at the meeting. So, it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't particularly stick out in my memory, and especially because yeah, I I was quite I was very
02:11:01 because yeah, I I was quite I was very tired. I was in pain and I was traumatized. So, it doesn't surprise me that I don't remember the people that were at the meeting. Now, you you go on in your next paragraph to talk about HN18 being
02:11:13 HN18 being interviewed at a secure location.
02:11:18 location. I want to ask you about something that HN18 said
02:11:24 HN18 said in those interviews. I wonder if we could take down Emily's statement. If we can go to MPS 0748203,
02:11:32 0748203, please. So, your tab B127. This is the second part of the transcript of HN18's
02:11:43 transcript of HN18's interview following his arrest. And you can see that if we just linger on the first page, you can see a person interviewed common wheel, so his cover name cover code name given
02:11:56 cover name cover code name given there. And you can see the interviewing officers have been redacted and just referred to as officers one and two, but you can see that manager HN72 is present during
02:12:09 that manager HN72 is present during these interviews. I wonder if we could go to page nine, please, in this particular transcript.
02:12:30 Now, one of the things So, he's describing what's happened, the planning,
02:12:35 planning, and it is
02:12:37 and it is trying to communicate to the interviewing officers what his role was. And so, if we just pick up with the last paragraph, "Well, the squat to leave would be, if you're going to do that, you may as well end the operation at
02:12:49 you may as well end the operation at that point." So, what he's talking about is, well, you can't just walk out when this the planning's going on. He talks about phones being handed in. It's not possible to
02:13:00 possible to leave at that point and to to warn your managers of what's going to happen. Do you remember that actually happening in the in the the last minute planning stage where you're at the squat, phones being handed
02:13:12 you're at the squat, phones being handed in? And so, is that something that did happen? Oh, so, um, with any sort of organization like that, we I think at our squat, we left our phones in the kitchen, but, you know, it wasn't this kind of like
02:13:24 know, it wasn't this kind of like someone comes and takes your phone and then gives it back. It's sort of like gives it As a matter of fact, we just like left our phones in another room, and then we got them back when we'd finished the planning. Um,
02:13:34 Um, there was there was nothing more to it than that. And just because we knew that our phones were listened to, so if we were actually um, doing the action planning, we'd have put the phones in another room, but he would have had access to it afterwards.
02:13:45 would have had access to it afterwards. He could also have left at any point. Um,
02:13:49 Um, everything that I'm involved in operates on the basis of informed consent. So, if someone doesn't know about a plan prior to sort of action planning meeting
02:14:01 prior to sort of action planning meeting like that beforehand, anyone who kind of goes, "No, that's too risky for me," or "That isn't something I feel comfortable doing for X or Y reasons," that is totally fine. That wouldn't draw
02:14:13 that is totally fine. That wouldn't draw any suspicion whatsoever. And in fact, I had a friend who um came to the meeting and decided that actually he didn't want to be part of the action and that was totally fine. No
02:14:24 the action and that was totally fine. No one thought anything of it. The way in which he phrases it here is, "Well, you may as well say I get up, I walk out this room, and you don't talk to me again. I will have no further contact with you. I have no further
02:14:35 contact with you. I have no further access to anything that's meaningful." All the things you really need to state here is that decisions about things like this take place in pubs and elsewhere. They don't take place
02:14:46 They don't take place in public. Uh and so again, he he's saying that well, this this is not a case where he could simply have have walked away. This is where you as an undercover officer, you really need to be there. And if you start walking out
02:14:58 be there. And if you start walking out of meetings such as this, uh you're going to draw attention to yourself. And that wouldn't draw attention to him. I don't I know, like it if if someone had said, "Oh, actually I hadn't like for example, with this
02:15:09 I hadn't like for example, with this particular action, we knew when we were talking about it that there was quite high likelihood that that we would get arrested for it. Um because we know the police how the
02:15:20 Um because we know the police how the police work. Um if someone had come to that meeting and kind of gone, "Actually, no, I don't want to take that risk." That would have been absolutely fine. Like we don't force people to go
02:15:31 fine. Like we don't force people to go out on actions. Just cuz you go to an organizing meeting doesn't mean you actually have to go out and and do the thing. I would I would want and I I wouldn't want somebody to like it would I would find it deeply distressing
02:15:43 would I would find it deeply distressing if someone came to an action planning meeting like that, heard the plan, and kind of went, "Oh, no, that's not for me." And felt obligated to go along with it. I That would be awful. I'd be really upset if anyone felt like that in our
02:15:55 upset if anyone felt like that in our organizing. When we were um addressing the um topic of the Grosvenor Hotel arrests, and we we went through all of the the various stages of your
02:16:08 all of the the various stages of your court case. Could you just in summary explain what happened to you after you were arrested in relation to this particular in- incident? So, the plan was to try and get into the car park,
02:16:21 was to try and get into the car park, the security were there, then the police were there, you were arrested, H and 18 were arrested. As far as you were concerned, from your perspective at the time, what happened next? So, we were
02:16:32 time, what happened next? So, we were kept in the car park for a really long time. Um
02:16:36 time. Um and
02:16:37 and it turns out that they were waiting for fit officers to turn up and um come and I don't know if they were all coming to take photographs of people um and we were like getting people out of the vans to photograph them.
02:16:48 the vans to photograph them. Cuz I know they came to the van and asked me to get out and I was just like, "Well, no, I'm not getting out of the van for you." And they just went, "Oh, it's you." Um
02:16:55 Um Oh, they told me they liked my sunglasses. Um
02:16:59 Um And so, after a long time, um
02:17:02 um we went back to West London Central. It was a really long journey. I remember I was in a huge amount of pain for my wrist um and being handcuffed again um
02:17:13 um to the point when we got there um
02:17:16 um my friend told me I'd gone a funny color and I did feel like I was about to pass out.
02:17:20 out. Um
02:17:22 Um So, eventually, we all got processed, I was interviewed um and charged with aggravated trespass and given bail
02:17:33 aggravated trespass and given bail conditions not to associate with each other um
02:17:38 um not to be
02:17:40 not to be um in the vicinity of sort of certain areas around um where the protests were taking place. And I think something else. But, yeah, we were given quite harsh bail conditions for what is described as a minor offense. And then what happened to
02:17:52 minor offense. And then what happened to those bail conditions? What happened to that case against Well, that the case itself was dropped. I got arrested on the Thursday at the
02:18:03 I got arrested on the Thursday at the dinner for breaching those bail conditions um
02:18:07 um and ended up with a daily signing condition that was sort of like 12:00 to 1:00 that really impacted on my life. They said it was to stop me going to any protests.
02:18:19 going to any protests. Um
02:18:21 Um and that had a yeah, that had a huge impact on my life cuz I had a very small child at the time. I was a toddler um and like we had to keep disrupting each day like we'd be on on the beach and then I'd have to go, "We've got to go to the police station now."
02:18:33 the police station now." Um
02:18:34 Um and it was it was quite ridiculous. I I think um Hastings sort of describes the bail conditions as being able to have a nice break. Um
02:18:44 Um but it wasn't like that, you know, I had a car of access to my friends as well in theory.
02:18:49 theory. Um
02:18:51 Um And I I So sorry, I was going to ask how the case concluded. Oh, well, the charges were dropped. What was the reason that was given? Now, you've described and right at the
02:19:02 you've described and right at the beginning of your evidence you talked about being arrested a number of times but not
02:19:09 but not not very often that you're actually charged let alone convicted of anything. Um but
02:19:15 Um but at what stage were the charges dropped and what was the reason given for dropping the charges? How was that communicated to you? Um so
02:19:23 Um so there was initial There was an initial hearing that uh my attendance was excused at because um of the distance from where I live and because I'd already been kept in custody
02:19:35 because I'd already been kept in custody from from the arrest on the Thursday. And then there was a second
02:19:43 second court hearing and I think that's when they were dropped. I think it was said that it wasn't in the public interest to continue but I'd have to look at the letter again to confirm that.
02:19:54 letter again to confirm that. Um but again, you know, like with our protests we weren't given any warnings about our behavior or or anything like that. There there there wasn't any of the sort of prerequisites in place for an aggravated trespass arrest.
02:20:06 an aggravated trespass arrest. Um,
02:20:08 Um, I think it's I just wanted to go back to the bail conditions cuz I think it's really notable that um H872 says
02:20:17 says that he presumed that the arrest was for the purpose of imposing bail conditions. So, that he was aware of an SDS example of an activist being given
02:20:30 SDS example of an activist being given bail conditions to stop them from protesting. And again, it's one of those things that we have always known that arrests are made and bail conditions are imposed to restrict our right to
02:20:42 imposed to restrict our right to protest, to to repress what we're doing, and to put conditions on our lives. They're a form of punishment and that
02:20:52 that even the presumption that arrests might have been made just to impose bail conditions is utterly unlawful. And and I think
02:21:04 is utterly unlawful. And and I think there is such a huge question of what the attitude is from the police, whether that's the undercovers, whether that's the managers, whether that's CO11, who wherever it is within the
02:21:15 CO11, who wherever it is within the policing structure, of their attitude towards the law and breaking the law. We We've seen it in other documents where um
02:21:23 um one of H873's ones about the um potential for arresting um RTS organizers. But the reason they didn't go ahead with the plan to unlawfully arrest people was because the
02:21:36 unlawfully arrest people was because the activists knew their rights and they would sue. So, the consideration wasn't about the fact this would have been assault, this would have been false imprisonment. These would have been
02:21:49 These would have been serious offenses and serious assaults and serious restrictions on our rights when they knew there was no evidence. Like, there is a serious question about
02:22:00 Like, there is a serious question about how the police themselves view the law, that how they impose the law, and why they think they can hold it in utter contempt in how they operate.
02:22:12 utter contempt in how they operate. I began this last session by referring to what you set out in your witness statement about HN 30, saying that in her opinion, senior management used the perceived mismanagement of this arrest
02:22:26 perceived mismanagement of this arrest to close the entire SDS unit.
02:22:29 SDS unit. But, after the charges were dropped against you, was there any suspicion, any thoughts that well, something very strange has happened here, or yet again, the same
02:22:41 happened here, or yet again, the same thing happening? No, it was yet again the same thing happening. It it was a kind of like, well, if we'd run into the car park and we'd disrupted something or we'd obstructed something or we we had done something, um then maybe that there might have been
02:22:54 um then maybe that there might have been a case, but in terms of what we did, we we just run into an area and we all got arrested. So, there wasn't really any, you know, there wasn't a substantive charge anyway. So, no, there was there was no suspicions around that.
02:23:06 was no suspicions around that. Um
02:23:08 Um as far as I'm aware, HN 30 isn't giving evidence, and it would be very very good to hear from her because there are these really really important questions around all of this and some of the other
02:23:19 all of this and some of the other reporting that um would be good to hear answers from her on. What whilst we have HN 18's interview transcript, may I just ask you something else about what is set
02:23:30 ask you something else about what is set out here. If we can go forward, please, to page 11. Again, it's the last paragraph on page 11.
02:23:41 So, this is HN 18 being interviewed, and we know HN 72's interview as well. I just want to ask you about what he says here. He says, "No, I think I would just like to
02:23:52 says, "No, I think I would just like to say, generally speaking, the operation on that day was very successful. What we managed to do was have a point
02:24:03 What we managed to do was have a point where we had 20 or so activists in one location who were arrested on the first day of a major event that was going to possibly have major publicity during the course of the week.
02:24:15 course of the week. And because of the fact that they were arrested and the fact that they can be bailed and they can have bail conditions imposed upon them, I think we saved a
02:24:26 imposed upon them, I think we saved a great deal of money subsequently after that because they were not free for the rest of the week to do whatever they may or not wish to
02:24:37 to do whatever they may or not wish to do.
02:24:38 do. I regard it as a success." What was impact on you reading
02:24:44 reading H&18's description of this arrest as a success for the reasons that he sets out?
02:24:52 Uh it's disgusting. I I I mean, it's an infringement on Article 10 and 11 rights yet again. Um
02:25:02 Um and
02:25:06 you know, the language of it to the event
02:25:10 the event might have had major publicity. It's not even like they're not even going as far as saying we might commit disorder. There might have been publicity around our protest. So, what? We're going back to causing embarrassment to the
02:25:21 to causing embarrassment to the government, embarrassment to the arms trade? Or is it success because we weren't able to cause embarrassment to the arms trade? That we weren't able to highlight the deals and death and destruction that happened at DSEI?
02:25:33 destruction that happened at DSEI? Um
02:25:35 Um and the fact that an officer thinks that it's a success because we can have our freedoms
02:25:46 because we can have our freedoms curtailed
02:25:47 curtailed and we can have bail conditions imposed on us
02:25:50 on us for what even they describe as a very minor offense. I mean it's outrageous and it's outrageous to consider this a success and I think
02:26:01 and I think like I you know I I understand why obviously so I'm not saying this in a funny way but you know like I've been asked about the policing purposes of um
02:26:10 um you know whether I think things are justified and whether that was a justifiable policing purpose.
02:26:17 I you know there are questions to be asked about what is the policing purpose of imposing bail conditions on people. How does that fit within the framework of what police officers are allegedly
02:26:29 of what police officers are allegedly supposed to do and how they're allegedly supposed to uphold the law because it does not fit. That you know that the law is not there for the police to manipulate, to abuse, to use, to shut
02:26:42 manipulate, to abuse, to use, to shut down our protests. That's not why the law exists. If we can please take that document down. I want to ask you about one more document about this arrest and and then I want to ask you some questions about the impact of um the SDS upon you.
02:26:56 the impact of um the SDS upon you. Could we please turn up MPS0526935? So this is at your tab B87. Again we're looking at um bundle of documents that authorized HN18's deployment. And I
02:27:10 authorized HN18's deployment. And I wonder again this is a it's a bundle of these authorities. Please could we put up on screen for Emily page 47 and paragraph two please on page 47.
02:27:26 I'm going to um confirm the number MPS0526935
02:27:32 tab B87.
02:27:51 Can you read this one? Yeah.
02:27:56 It's great.
02:28:13 Perhaps I can do this another way. I understand we may have um an issue with the screen, but what I will do Emily is I'll simply read to you the the passage and then ask you some questions about it. So, again it's referring to H and 18
02:28:25 it. So, again it's referring to H and 18 as CW, common wheel. Uh let's
02:28:30 Uh let's one last time, say.
02:28:39 Well, let me begin reading and um we'll we'll see where we get to. So, what is set out here is as follows. CW's arrest is an indication of the increasing difficulties faced by uh UCPs operating
02:28:52 difficulties faced by uh UCPs operating in the arena of public order under the intense gaze of forward intelligence teams. Uh FITs are a vital element for policing potentially troublesome public
02:29:03 policing potentially troublesome public order events and undoubtedly they prevent disorder. Recently, activists associated with both CCA and disarm DSEI have begun to band together to oppose the FITs under the
02:29:15 together to oppose the FITs under the guise of Fitwatch. It is assessed that Emily Apple and others are currently in the process of giving serious consideration to instigating civil
02:29:26 consideration to instigating civil proceedings against the MPS in connection with their policing methods. This in itself will also make it more difficult for C W to operate in a more
02:29:38 difficult for C W to operate in a more hostile environment where activists will be looking to identify and document quote police malpractice in support of such civil actions. What is your
02:29:51 such civil actions. What is your reaction to reading in one of H and 18's authorities reference to him operating in a more hostile environment where
02:30:02 in a more hostile environment where activists in particular you looking to identify and document police malpractice. I mean I think it's a very strange phrasing.
02:30:14 phrasing. But I don't quite understand given that we were documenting the other policing. I
02:30:25 I think one of the things I haven't mentioned that is worth mentioning in terms of Harrison's Hasting's authorizations is the biggest risk that he faced was from over enthusiastic policing. So the entire risk that he
02:30:37 policing. So the entire risk that he faced was from the police themselves.
02:30:43 I think there is and we haven't really touched on it. Um this reporting on civil cases I think is really really really important and it's an issue with H and 3 as well.
02:30:55 an issue with H and 3 as well. Um
02:30:56 Um that
02:30:58 that undercover officers should not have been reporting on actions on our civil cases and giving the Met uh litigation advantage.
02:31:09 litigation advantage. Um I think that is that is awful and and needs exploring more. I think particularly in relation to I tried to bring a harassment case and this was earlier than this. This was
02:31:20 this was earlier than this. This was 2004 when I first tried to bring a harassment case against the foreign intelligence services and I had a lot of documented evidence and it's where the criminal intelligence reports that that have been shown to the inquiry come
02:31:31 have been shown to the inquiry come from.
02:31:32 from. And I was told uh and um Victoria was the other person who tried to take that civil action. Um I think three was listed as a potential witness for that.
02:31:43 listed as a potential witness for that. Um
02:31:44 Um and one of the things that we were told was that we couldn't provide we couldn't provide evidence of a single controlling mind. So, the response we had from the Met Police solicitors were these were
02:31:56 Met Police solicitors were these were all just individual events that had no connection to each other. And because we couldn't provide that evidence, then we could not bring a harassment case
02:32:07 could not bring a harassment case against the Met. So, in the end I settled the case as a series of assaults and wrongful arrests. But that case was so seriously undermined knowing what we know now,
02:32:20 undermined knowing what we know now, knowing what Wellings said about being traced leading to more trace I can't remember the exact wording of that. Um knowing what we know now about the
02:32:31 Um knowing what we know now about the relationship between the SDS and the CO11 and the fit teams and what happened on the streets, I had an entire civil case around harassment and around the fact that what they did broke my mental
02:32:44 fact that what they did broke my mental health completely undermined by the withholding of evidence in that case. Um
02:32:51 Um and in terms of this one, yeah, I mean would have been talking about taking
02:33:00 taking civil action against the police because I spent a lot of my life taking civil action against the police because I believe there should be some accountability for what they what they've done to me over the years, but it should not have been reported on by
02:33:11 it should not have been reported on by SDS officers. What one of the things that you've made very clear is that the effect of Um, the SDS on you, um,
02:33:23 the effect of Um, the SDS on you, um, is still present today because of what's recorded in all the documents and something that you've said in relation to the impact Yeah. that the SDS has had upon you. And you're very clear about
02:33:35 upon you. And you're very clear about that.
02:33:36 that. But focusing on the SDS and of course you've referred to the the FIT teams for obvious reasons. But could you just help us with trying to understand
02:33:48 trying to understand to those who've never been through any of what you have been through and very specific to the SDS how that has impacted upon your life, please.
02:33:59 please. Um.
02:34:02 Um. Just living with that profound sense of betrayal of
02:34:11 of Um, I actually
02:34:15 This is from an old diary that, um,
02:34:20 I wrote in, I think it must have been 2013 or 2014 when I was having therapy after a mental health breakdown. And
02:34:28 And I only found it a couple of weeks ago. Um,
02:34:33 Um, but what I wrote then was I shut it out for so many years. I've written about the grieving process with regard to spies, but I've never been through it. Never cried until I couldn't breathe.
02:34:44 Never cried until I couldn't breathe. Never really felt the pain. Somehow I thought it was the assault, the arrest, the harassment which wore me down.
02:34:50 down. And I don't think they have. And that, you know, I do have a large amount of trauma revolving around too many key incidents. But underlying all of this, bubbling away, is the pain of betrayal and the
02:35:01 away, is the pain of betrayal and the incontrovertible fact I entrusted my beautiful baby into the hands of people who turned out to be total scum. And for me that's the impact. It, you know, it's the impact on my child. It's it's
02:35:12 it's the impact in how I how I trust, how I work. I I do trust people. I I've coped by still being open, by still working with people, by
02:35:23 open, by still working with people, by still doing what I do. And
02:35:30 I Excuse my language, but I think my ultimate you to the SDS is the fact that I will still trust people, I will still work with people, and I will still get out on the streets doing stuff because that is so fundamentally important to me and who I am. And I am
02:35:43 important to me and who I am. And I am not going to let them stop me do that. But, the actual impact in terms of trauma, in terms of unpicking all of your life and going, "Is this real? What
02:35:56 your life and going, "Is this real? What is real? What What What was made up?" And then the impact of not only having that intrusion, but
02:36:06 but that intrusion not even being accurate, that there's so many lies, that there's so many exaggerations, that
02:36:17 that there's so many exaggerations, that despite the fact that they thought they needed to be in our movements, that they didn't stop anything happening. And they still didn't understand our movements. They've Or, you know, or they
02:36:29 movements. They've Or, you know, or they willfully not understood our movements or what we were about to to justify what they were doing. And yeah, it it it's a profound impact. It's quite difficult to put into words
02:36:43 It's quite difficult to put into words quite
02:36:45 quite what
02:36:46 what this gross intrusion in our lives has done.
02:36:50 done. Now, at this point, we uh uh we would stop for a short while to see if there are any Rule 10 questions, and of course, uh to allow uh time after that
02:37:01 course, uh to allow uh time after that for any re-examination. But But at this point, is there any further direct factual evidence you would like to give before we have that break, please? Yeah,
02:37:12 before we have that break, please? Yeah, um
02:37:12 um there's a couple of really small points I want to make and one more substantial point. Um,
02:37:22 I think it's really important to note, and I'm saying this as a as a as still a current NEJ member, about the targeting of journalists. We've seen reports on NEJ members. We've seen like press
02:37:34 NEJ members. We've seen like press interest in Section 44 searches. We've seen reports that there's going to be embedded journalists at protests. Um, the
02:37:45 the independence and the supposedly free press of our country is supposed to be one of the foundations of our democracy, and that has been totally undermined in SDS reporting and how they look at what
02:37:56 SDS reporting and how they look at what could be sympathetic journalists. I've got, um, you know, that continues to this day because I've got criminal intelligence reports from 2017 when I was working as a journalist where the police say, "Oh, Emily's focused on
02:38:07 police say, "Oh, Emily's focused on working as a journalist." Well, why record it? And I think the targeting of journalists is really, really, really important, uh, and why why that was necessary. Um,
02:38:20 Um, I think, and this is going to be even more of a problem going into Trump 4, the issue over closed offices. I think if the evidence of pretty much all the
02:38:32 if the evidence of pretty much all the officers that we'd heard from had just been taken on face value, if we hadn't kept records, um, if we hadn't been willing to come here and say what we've
02:38:43 willing to come here and say what we've been through, about what we believe, and why we organize, those records could be taken on face value, and I don't doubt that there would be
02:38:54 and I don't doubt that there would be stuff that would undermine what what is in those, um, what's this? Reports. And I think that's that's going to be more of an issue moving forward is is how do we
02:39:05 moving forward is is how do we how do we contradict that evidence? You know, like just even like that Grosvenor House hotel arrest. If I hadn't kept those videos and I hadn't kept all my court papers and and those records, then
02:39:16 court papers and and those records, then it would just be my word against, you know, a detective inspector saying I'd fabricated my evidence. Um,
02:39:23 Um, you know, like there there is just so much there. Um,
02:39:29 Um, I think there is
02:39:35 I'm only going to touch on this very very very very briefly, I promise, cuz I know the inquiry doesn't want to go here. But, I think there is an issue with corporate spies. I think so, um, Martin Hogbin, who was due to be my
02:39:47 Martin Hogbin, who was due to be my child's, um, godfather, who infiltrated Cat for years, um, knew HN3 very very well. He also knew Simon Wellings, um, and Simon Wellings reported on him.
02:39:59 reported on him. Um,
02:40:01 Um, they were supposed to be reporting back on corporate spies. That's one of the things they even in the management statements they say about, um,
02:40:12 say about, um, one of the roles was to, um, report on people they suspected to be, um, corporate traitors. Um,
02:40:20 Um, HN3 wasn't directly He was He was asked some roundabout questions about it, but he wasn't directly asked about Hogbin, how he knew him. Um, and also unfortunately, what happened after Cat exposed him, because
02:40:32 happened after Cat exposed him, because we had this period of time when we didn't believe the allegations against him,
02:40:38 him, um, because of bad legal advice at the time to Cat, um, and we weren't sent the files. And so, we carried on working with him, with HN3. So, you then got the situation where an undercover officer is knowingly working
02:40:53 undercover officer is knowingly working with with a corporate spy. So, um, what risk assessments were done around that? Um,
02:41:01 Um, I even if they didn't know beforehand, but I mean he seemed to imply that he could recognize them very easily. So, um that's interesting. Um but
02:41:11 Um but it it but in terms of yeah, I mean what risk assessments were done by that? Um was it you know, at the point at which they realized was there then an intelligence sharing protocol if there hadn't been before? Um because we we've got nearly a 2-year
02:41:24 Um because we we've got nearly a 2-year period where HN3 is
02:41:29 HN3 is spying on me and working in our groups, but the whole thing is still involved in.
02:41:33 in. And we've got we know that between '95 and '99 there were six to eight corporate spies in CAT.
02:41:40 CAT. We know later in 2006 that Paul Mercer was contracted by Rod Leeming to um
02:41:48 um provide information on CAT. And Rod Leeming was the former head of the ARNI. We've got this revolving door between the corporate spies and senior police officers that are infiltrating our
02:41:59 officers that are infiltrating our movements and reporting on us. And that
02:42:03 And that that and we've heard in tranche two evidence of the fact that they knew about each other and and and I'll
02:42:11 I'll I do believe that there was delayed information sharing. And obviously I can't prove it, but I but I think there are some real questions around it and especially around that period when the
02:42:22 especially around that period when the SDS knew
02:42:23 SDS knew um and when we were still working with Martin.
02:42:29 Martin. I think there's issue um with missing voices. I was put on the green list um by the consulting association
02:42:40 association um
02:42:41 um and was essentially blacklisted, but I'm not construction worker. It had no impact on my life whatsoever. And we should be hearing from Dave Smith and the impact of the people who had
02:42:52 and the impact of the people who had their livelihoods ruined by the SDS and the reporting on them. Um
02:43:01 And Sorry, I'm nearly finished. I promise.
02:43:07 I think the other legacy of the SDS is that it its words, its narrative still exists today. So, the SDS they they built a
02:43:18 today. So, the SDS they they built a narrative about all of us, whether it was fake bomb plots, whether it was um
02:43:26 um you know, uh plans to firebomb charity shops in my case that I wanted to target um fit officers' families. They created a narrative of threat of extremism that
02:43:38 a narrative of threat of extremism that still exists today. The same language that the SDS using, they're still using now. So,
02:43:45 now. So, I had um subject access request data from 2023 from SA15. And in that, they've made assumptions about a young person that I was with
02:43:57 about a young person that I was with saying that, "Oh, they might be my daughter." Now, this is someone I'm very close to.
02:44:02 close to. Um but I don't have a daughter. And they've just made another wild assumption. They've said they followed us from a cafe to the the camp at DSE. They said, "Oh, you know, Emily was
02:44:14 They said, "Oh, you know, Emily was checking out the fence on the way, probably looking for weak points." And again, it's these like wild assumptions out of nowhere. And that same language that's being used in in 20 That was in 2023. I have no doubt the same language
02:44:27 2023. I have no doubt the same language is on my police files now. Um
02:44:30 Um So, we've got this narrative that that was built to justify a threat. That to justify their jobs. A narrative that was to justify political policing.
02:44:43 that was to justify political policing. That is still running through policing today. And And that is a real legacy of the of the SDS. And right now we are living in the one of the most repressive climates that I have
02:44:54 the most repressive climates that I have ever seen for protest. Um
02:44:58 Um and that is possible because of the SDS, because of that language, because of those threats that still run through the reporting. The The the threats that they made up in relation to me
02:45:10 relation to me 20 years ago is is still coming up today.
02:45:15 today. Um
02:45:16 Um and it can't be just looked at and historically because it's still going on today.
02:45:22 today. Um
02:45:25 But ultimately um
02:45:30 the whole thing is about political policing. In the '90s we had this amazing hope. Um you know, another world is possible.
02:45:41 Um you know, another world is possible. It wasn't a slogan. It was something we believed we could achieve positive social change. We wanted to occupy spaces. We wanted to have street parties. We wanted to create
02:45:54 have street parties. We wanted to create children's play areas. Um we wanted to be creative and um
02:46:02 um do things differently. And we were policed out of existence. And they've done the same thing now. They've done the same thing with Extinction Rebellion with Just Stop Oil. They've been policed out of existence.
02:46:15 They've been policed out of existence. And
02:46:17 And we need to look at how we treat protest. That protest should be celebrated. We can't call all protest disorder. We
02:46:28 can't call all protest disorder. We can't call all protest extremist. We can't other all protesters. We need to be celebrating that incredibly rich, beautiful history
02:46:40 that incredibly rich, beautiful history of people being prepared to do what's necessary to bring about social change. And that social change does not happen through just signing a petition and
02:46:52 through just signing a petition and going on a march. Those things are important, but it's that diversity of tactics. It's having the people who are prepared to push those boundaries and to take things further, to to create
02:47:03 and to take things further, to to create those moments that change the narrative. But it's so important that we wouldn't be sitting where we are today. We wouldn't have the rights that we have
02:47:14 wouldn't have the rights that we have today without those people. I'm really proud that I've played really small and insignificant part in that. And I hope that I can carry on doing that.
02:47:23 that. But
02:47:25 But when you've got a policing strategy that is to police a group out of existence, that is a fundamental attack on our rights. That is a fundamental attack on
02:47:37 rights. That is a fundamental attack on how all of us live, how we should want a democracy to look. And I think that is the legacy of the SDS. I think in what terms of what they did, they didn't achieve anything.
02:47:49 did, they didn't achieve anything. They They manufactured lies. They did appalling things. But they you know, they they weren't you know, they weren't gathering evidence. They were just gathering reams
02:48:01 evidence. They were just gathering reams and reams and reams and reams of intelligence.
02:48:05 But they created that narrative and
02:48:10 I don't know what would happen without them. I don't know what would happen without that narrative. But if we'd been allowed to create those spaces, we're in a really dark time at the moment. We've got the repression of protest.
02:48:21 got the repression of protest. We've got the most horrendous war going on.
02:48:24 on. We've got the rise of fascism. We've got race riots on our streets. We've got the climate catastrophe raging.
02:48:33 raging. And who knows? If we'd been given that chance to create, to occupy those spaces, maybe we could have averted the rise of fascism. Maybe we could have diminished the influence of the arms trade. Maybe we could put a break on the
02:48:46 trade. Maybe we could put a break on the climate catastrophe. Now, that's all very grandiose. I don't think it's it's likely you know, I'm not saying that we would have achieved those things, but I would have really really been allowed to try. I
02:48:58 try. I that we could have attempted to do that, that we could have been allowed to use our voices, to occupy spaces, and and to create that change. And that was shut down.
02:49:09 shut down. And I think the SDS has so much to answer for, not only in terms of political policing, not only in terms of what they did to in us individually, but into the situation
02:49:21 us individually, but into the situation that we find ourselves in today, and what we are facing today. And that's the legacy of the SDS.
02:49:34 So, we have not been alerted to any rule 10 questions. I don't know whether appropriate to rise for that to be confirmed.
02:49:44 Is there any re-examination? Yes, I'll be maybe 6 or 7 minutes. I'm happy happy to do it now. I think if you were to do that now, and I will then rise, and I don't anticipate
02:49:57 I don't anticipate needing to come back in to deal with rule 10 questions, but if there were to be any, then I I could wait and do that. Thank you, sir. I think that's most efficient use of time. Thank you. Sorry I went on a bit. No, don't worry
02:50:08 Sorry I went on a bit. No, don't worry at all.
02:50:09 at all. Thank you. Just three hopefully short points from from me. The first one is Fairford. You've been asked a series of questions about the involvement of HN3, Jason
02:50:20 about the involvement of HN3, Jason Bishop,
02:50:21 Bishop, before
02:50:23 before leading up to the third Fairford coaches, and them being stopped and turned back. I just want to briefly ask you about his involvement in the fallout from that incident, so after that.
02:50:35 incident, so after that. Now, we don't need to put it up, but in your witness statement to paragraph 5-187,
02:50:41 5-187, you refer to HN3's report of the 31st of March, which is just over a week after the third
02:50:50 the third uh coaches, the the ones that were stopped and turned back. And just for the record, that's MPS0028778.
02:51:00 Now, that shows that he was present at a dicey coordinating group uh which you you were present. Um um
02:51:10 Um um would it be correct to say that whenever he was or wasn't around at the time, he was certainly involved very shortly after that incident? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, now he he
02:51:21 Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, now he he was involved very shortly afterwards, and I think there's a report from him from the BPOLDM that's beginning of April, so. Yes, indeed there is. That's I think that's the next paragraph in the statement. Correct. And would it be right that um he would
02:51:33 And would it be right that um he would have been involved in or uh at least cited on discussions regarding responses to what had happened with the Fairford coaches? absolutely, cuz we we would have been talking about it a lot because it was
02:51:45 talking about it a lot because it was such a big deal. It was a big deal. Yeah. Um And of course it led on to the um litigation that we all know about. Um and so that the proposals for legal claims would also have Oh, yes, yeah, he would
02:51:57 also have Oh, yes, yeah, he would absolutely have known about those. And also because like we weren't on the coaches, but we were working with the people who were on the coaches because we had because we were helping people like contact other passengers on the
02:52:08 like contact other passengers on the coaches cuz we had to coordinate. Right, so he'd have been cited at least involved in those discussions. Yeah. Second point, different topic. Um a theme of your evidence is that the exaggerated intelligence uh about your
02:52:23 exaggerated intelligence uh about your activities and the activities activities of others led to excessive policing responses. Now,
02:52:32 Now, I'm going to refer to a few documents, but I'm not going to ask them put up in the interest of time, and I know you're familiar with them. So, I'll just take snippets out of them and put the
02:52:43 snippets out of them and put the put the documents on the record. Um so, from the disclosure, it's clear that there was briefing from the SDS, at least two sources of
02:52:54 from the SDS, at least two sources of the idea
02:52:54 the idea of the SDS to Tayside police
02:52:58 police regarding the GEA, to which you've given a little bit of evidence earlier. Uh the first of those was from Simon Wellings, HN 118, and the reference is
02:53:09 Wellings, HN 118, and the reference is MPS 0526933
02:53:14 at page 43, and that refers to, quote, "personal briefings" uh by him to Tayside police, described by them as, quote, "invaluable."
02:53:26 by them as, quote, "invaluable." And secondly, by HN3, Jason Bishop, uh and the reference is MPS 0526873
02:53:35 at page 22, and he, quote, uh provided time-critical intelligence, which assisted Tayside police in connection with planning a large-scale
02:53:48 connection with planning a large-scale public order event. That was obviously the event that we know about. And then,
02:53:53 And then, from
02:53:54 from jumping forward from that, uh the two undercover officers arrested, Jason Bishop himself, HN3, uh in his Operation Herne notes at MPS
02:54:06 uh in his Operation Herne notes at MPS 0723153
02:54:09 at page eight, uh said, "We had genuinely done nothing wrong." And HN60, Dave Jones, again Operation Herne notes, MPS 0738067
02:54:24 Herne notes, MPS 0738067 at page four, said This is a document Mr. Amble took you to earlier where he says we were fitted up, quote unquote. So, it's apparent
02:54:36 So, it's apparent um from those reports that their view that there was no they were arrested with you, of course, um no proper basis for your arrest and indeed the charges against you were
02:54:47 indeed the charges against you were dropped.
02:54:49 dropped. Uh I'm not going to ask you about the events itself. Um but can you describe the impact this has had on you finding out first of all that the SDS
02:55:01 finding out first of all that the SDS had influenced um the the policing itself, but also that the SDS officers themselves arrested with you have viewed the um arrests as
02:55:12 have viewed the um arrests as effectively improper. What what effect, given the evidence of your circumstances at the time with the baby, the fact that the police were talking about social services involvement, what what impact
02:55:24 services involvement, what what impact has this all had on you? So,
02:55:28 So, that arrest was deeply deeply traumatic because I had made the decision that I would just help with driving because I had my baby with
02:55:40 with driving because I had my baby with me and that was something useful that I could do.
02:55:45 could do. Um it was the first night that I'd been separated from my child. He was like My friend was amazing. She came collected him.
02:55:53 him. Um
02:55:54 Um but you know, he he was really upset when when I had to to hand him over. Um
02:56:01 Um I was still breastfeeding him. Um
02:56:07 I hadn't slept night before either. And I was
02:56:13 I was hugely hugely upset. And then when we were in court the next day we had news of the 7/7 bombings and I knew that my partner at the time would
02:56:25 I knew that my partner at the time would be on
02:56:26 be on his way to um to Scotland in in case he was needed to to look after him. And so then I had the added sort of worry that he was he would have been
02:56:37 worry that he was he would have been traveling at at the time that happened. And
02:56:43 I remember sort of just afterwards um me and my friend who also had her his daughter there. We were just like we need to get out of Scotland. It is not safe us being here with our children.
02:56:55 with our children. Um
02:56:55 Um you know, the fact that you can't be around a protest with a child and and the fact it was such a massive police operation as well. Learning about the fact of the police briefing and the
02:57:08 the fact of the police briefing and the fact of what the police have subsequently said about the arrests. Has that given you any Has that had any impact on you in terms of the SDS reporting itself? Yeah, I mean
02:57:19 reporting itself? Yeah, I mean I mean it's quite quite depressing, isn't it?
02:57:21 isn't it? Um Wellings has been praised for all these invaluable briefings and they turned out to be time critical intelligence that led to an arrest of their two officers. Like they
02:57:32 their two officers. Like they Yeah. I I like God knows what they were doing. I think really. Um
02:57:37 Um because it's it's just it's beyond ridiculous. I mean Wellings could not have possibly been providing um that good intelligence anyway given what we know about him. But the fact
02:57:48 what we know about him. But the fact that they they were sup- posedly providing this invaluable intelligence that then led to us and you know, the two of them being arrested.
02:57:59 arrested. I mean if it if it didn't have such an impact, it would be farcical. Yes. Um But also I'd say that the way I was asked before about
02:58:10 asked before about um
02:58:11 um whether there was any suspicions with um Harrison Hastings' arrest when when when those charges were dropped and then they weren't but there was always something very very strange about the way the
02:58:22 very very strange about the way the Scottish arrest were dropped because they were treating it so seriously and telling us that we were going to be remanded. Finally from from me and just a short point you referred to your
02:58:33 a short point you referred to your awareness that there's a violence marker against you going back at least 16 years and that remains on your record given that
02:58:44 that given your evidence that you've no convictions for violence no convictions for public order uh
02:58:51 uh what impact does that have on you now and what do you think should happen to the violence marker? Well, the violence marker should be removed. It should never been placed there in the first place.
02:59:02 there in the first place. But it but it has a massive impact so after
02:59:08 after after I had my second mental health breakdown, I wasn't able to do any frontline stuff at all. And then I started going back to stuff and I went back to stuff as a journalist and I was very very strict when I worked as a journalist. I I would not get
02:59:20 as a journalist. I I would not get involved in anything because I actually you know, I treat that role as being a journalist really seriously and you know, I wouldn't want to jeopardize other journalists and it was important to me that I was there I was just reporting on things.
02:59:31 reporting on things. So I I did that for a while and then I started going back to things. But I'm very very wary of my mental health and how things impact me and how
02:59:44 health and how things impact me and how I know policing is going to impact me. And I have to be very very mindful of the situations that I'm in, how I respond to situations and how the police
02:59:55 respond to situations and how the police might treat me. Having those kind of markers still on the record means that I'm still over policed. I am still um treated more harshly than I should be
03:00:08 um treated more harshly than I should be treated that the police are still treating me as a violent threat despite not having any convictions for violence. Um
03:00:18 Um despite none of the undercover officers that I've heard so far given any evidence that I was involved in any violence, that they are still on my record and having an impact today. I
03:00:29 record and having an impact today. I mean
03:00:31 mean I find it really upsetting, actually. It impacts my ability to organize and be on the streets. Thank you very much. That's all I have said. Thank you. Um on this
03:00:42 Um on this forgive me. On the assumption that there are no further questions, this will be the last time that you will be sitting in that chair and
03:00:53 sitting in that chair and uh listening to what I have to say. May I say thank you to you. Um
03:00:58 Um I have heard an enormous amount of evidence
03:01:02 evidence from a very wide variety of people.
03:01:08 It is of the greatest assistance to hear it from
03:01:13 all sorts of different people including if I may say a person as striking as yourself. I'm very grateful to you. Thank you. I I wish we'd heard from more of us in this trial and she's
03:01:24 from more of us in this trial and she's all I can say from that.
03:01:27 There isn't I I do have a statutory duty to have regard to the amount of money this always is costing and I'm afraid these hearings are expensive and therefore but if you're not hearing from the
03:01:38 but if you're not hearing from the people actually targeted it's quite difficult, isn't it?
03:01:46 Now is not time for me to engage in a debate with you about that. all. I'm not suggesting it. Thank you. No, there is.
03:02:39 Mhm.