The witness, Simon Wellings (HN118), is questioned on the second phase of his undercover deployment, specifically his infiltration of the 'descent network' and other autonomous left-wing groups. A significant portion of the session focuses on a 2007 SDS note that describes his access as 'excellent' and 'comprehensive,' which Wellings repeatedly characterizes as an exaggeration and inaccurate.
00:22:42 Good morning, everybody. Today's proceedings will be livereamed after the usual 10-minute delay. Those with mobile devices may use them to report what they hear to the outside world, but only
00:22:53 hear to the outside world, but only after 10 minutes have elapsed. Since the event that they're reporting, they may not be used for recording or photography. Yes.
00:23:03 Yes. 118. Yesterday, we were beginning to talk about your transition from your deployment into globalized resistance in relation to reporting on the descent
00:23:15 relation to reporting on the descent network.
00:23:17 network. You've described and we covered in some detail the compromise. After that compromise, did that lead to a different approach by you in relation
00:23:29 a different approach by you in relation to your spying? Um, I don't think so. Not as a direct result of the compromise. It it was always in my mind because I was um you
00:23:40 always in my mind because I was um you know I I was very aware that as I started attending meetings which were more dissent focused and and getting around the network that uh at any moment I could be challenged because of the
00:23:51 I could be challenged because of the previous compromise globalized resistance. You were on the steering committee. You were you describe yourself as web master and so you're you're very much in involved or
00:24:04 you're you're very much in involved or you were very much involved in globalized resistance. Did you ever have such a similar role for the rest of your deployment? No, I didn't. Okay. And so in terms of your reporting,
00:24:17 Okay. And so in terms of your reporting, were you more on the periphery, more on the edges of various actions? Yes, I think that's fair to say. Um, by the time I was moving sideways and retasked, you know, the descent network,
00:24:30 retasked, you know, the descent network, the core organizing group on that were were well established and it was a bit late in the game to try and get the same level, I suppose, of close relationship that I'd enjoyed previously.
00:24:43 that I'd enjoyed previously. So, in that respect, was it the second part of your deployment very different from the first part? It was.
00:24:54 in you've described yesterday descent being a network. What did you infiltrate o of that network? So in in terms of globalized resistance, very clear you infiltrated
00:25:05 resistance, very clear you infiltrated globalized resistance and we've covered what what you did, but could you just help us with the specifics of what precisely you did in relation to descent? Yes, of course. Um and it might be
00:25:18 Yes, of course. Um and it might be useful to to understand that I realized it was going to be a very different type of deployment almost immediately because of the fact that it was a network. It was decentralized and organizing was
00:25:30 was decentralized and organizing was already well established and it was clear that that was going on not in a London centric way but across you know the UK and Europe. Um I sought a meeting with um the C squad who were monitoring
00:25:42 with um the C squad who were monitoring it just to sort of try and establish the way forward. Uh made an effort to try and deconlict because I was uh aware by that stage that there were probably
00:25:54 that stage that there were probably other UCOs out covering various parts of work which might overlap and I was quite keen that we didn't duplicate our efforts. Uh but it was quite apparent
00:26:05 efforts. Uh but it was quite apparent that it wouldn't be possible to get up sort of tight, close and personal to um a core group of people. In my early
00:26:16 a core group of people. In my early meetings or you know just attending open meetings that were being organized at various spaces, it it was clear that that group was quite tight, was quite clicky. Um and you know, I just didn't
00:26:27 clicky. Um and you know, I just didn't feel it was going to be possible to get right up alongside them. You're talking about open meetings and of course this is a time 2004 onwards people are using year
00:26:38 time 2004 onwards people are using year on year the the internet more and more so there's more information available online in relation to justification does the justification for your deployment
00:26:49 the justification for your deployment drop right down because if you're attending public meetings if you're accessing material on the internet doesn't require the skills of an undercover officer does it
00:27:00 undercover officer does it well I think there were still there was still a lot of utility in becoming you know a familiar face if that was that makes sense. I I never with the amount of time that was available before the G8
00:27:12 of time that was available before the G8 actually happened which was only you know realistically 6 months away. Um you know it was immediately apparent to me that it was going to have to be a case of getting round to as many of the
00:27:23 of getting round to as many of the convergent spaces and uh places where this organizing was taking place and just hopefully becoming a familiar face. you know, was going to be able to have
00:27:35 you know, was going to be able to have conversations in the bar afterwards and and get tight to a couple of two or three people or tightish and then have access to some of the closed email lists
00:27:46 access to some of the closed email lists and things that were flying about. But it absolutely was probably the first mobilization I would say that was there was probably more information flying around on the internet. I I I
00:27:58 flying around on the internet. I I I want to explore what you've said about being a familiar face, becoming a familiar face. But before I do, something you said a couple of minutes ago is that when you were reorientating your deployment, you had discussions
00:28:10 your deployment, you had discussions with C squad not wanting to overlap with any other undercover operation. Yes.
00:28:18 Yes. Now, may I ask you specifically about the NPIU?
00:28:23 the NPIU? Were you briefed about the presence of NPIU
00:28:27 NPIU UCOs?
00:28:32 I I was I don't think it was quite at that stage. Uh but certainly that there I remember that word word came back quite early on uh that there was at
00:28:43 quite early on uh that there was at least one officer deployed from the NIU into this specific area. And did you know who they were? No, not not at that stage. I I became aware
00:28:56 not at that stage. I I became aware relatively soon after that.
00:29:08 Did you ever meet any of them? Yes.
00:29:15 And when you met them, was that in undercover as Simon Wellings or was it outside that context?
00:29:24 context? It was at Simon Wellings undercover.
00:29:30 Okay. All right. I'm going to come back to who you met in the PayU because you said it was that came later. Yes.
00:29:38 Yes. All right. I'm going to ask if we could please turn up um MPS73489.
00:29:48 Sir, this is at your tab B 106 at it's in volume 3, please.
00:29:58 Now 118, this is a document you can see from the top right SDS note dated towards the end of your deployment, April 2007. But it it does contain um information
00:30:12 But it it does contain um information about
00:30:13 about your deployment. Firstly, this document. Are you familiar with this document? No, I don't recognize this at all.
00:30:26 It's a document uh in your witness pack. If we just go through it then, can you see it says UCO ring access document? I can. Yes. So that's you UCO ring. Yes.
00:30:39 I can. Yes. So that's you UCO ring. Yes. Yes.
00:30:39 Yes. All right. Now if we just go through this, this document seeks to briefly detail the individuals and groups to which UCO ring has access for the purpose of intelligence reporting. It is
00:30:52 purpose of intelligence reporting. It is prepared for use in advance of the 2007 German D8 and as such deals specifically with the potential for intelligence reporting around that event. Um, as as I'm reading this, there's no
00:31:04 Um, as as I'm reading this, there's no familiarity with this document. This is this is new to you. All right. In very general terms, UCO ring has excellent access to a very broad sway of the autonomous extreme left wing both in the
00:31:17 autonomous extreme left wing both in the United Kingdom and in mainland Europe. I just want to explore this document in terms of firstly its accuracy and again in terms of that last
00:31:30 accuracy and again in terms of that last sentence excellent access to a very broad sway of the autonomous extreme leftwing in the United Kingdom again giving the date of this April 2007 is
00:31:42 giving the date of this April 2007 is that is that fair and accurate or is it exaggerated it's exaggerated it's exaggerated okay he she enjoys a less lesser degree of access to the more organized left. Uh
00:31:53 access to the more organized left. Uh that is those groups that organize themselves along party lines or employ hierarchical forms of organizing. Is that fair? Um
00:32:02 Um yeah, I would say so. Yes. Um as will be understood immediately, this leads to a vast amount of overlap with individuals or affinity groups often organizing within numerous
00:32:13 often organizing within numerous structures or networks. and then the following table attempt to uh take that into account. I just want to go through with you just some of what is set out here because this is uh about or on the
00:32:27 here because this is uh about or on the face of it a description of your uh deployment and it begins by referring to the descent network. Now pausing there,
00:32:38 the descent network. Now pausing there, the second part of your deployment after globalized resistance, was that the main focus of your undercover work, the descent network
00:32:49 undercover work, the descent network at that time? Yeah, absolutely. And going forward, so so we can see that it is the the first example that's given here. um excellent comprehensive and indepth
00:33:01 excellent comprehensive and indepth access to um it says at this point the remnants of UK descent network. Uh UCW was at the heart of this organization uh efforts to oppose the 2005 Glenn
00:33:13 uh efforts to oppose the 2005 Glenn Eagles G8 and is equally uh well placed now. Now, in terms of that uh description, I is that um
00:33:24 description, I is that um again an exaggeration when it describes you at the heart of this organization? Yeah, it is. I wasn't at the heart of it at all.
00:33:43 How would you describe it if this for example was an honest accurate document? If there was a heading descent network, how would how would you have phrased it in relation to the degree of access?
00:33:55 in relation to the degree of access? Because we can see that's the heading of the column explanatory notes and degree of access. What would the accurate description? I think it would be that I was, you
00:34:06 I think it would be that I was, you know, I was someone who was kind of on the scene, part of a small affinity group, somebody who could, I mean, a lot of these places, of course, anybody can walk into and anybody's welcome. Uh, but
00:34:19 walk into and anybody's welcome. Uh, but somebody who wouldn't be challenged, I suppose, if I turned up at a organizing meeting. Um I had I had become um close
00:34:30 meeting. Um I had I had become um close to a couple of people in sort of South London who were involved with descent as well. I quite early on in descent plugged into or plugged into I I made
00:34:41 plugged into or plugged into I I made contact with people sort of on the tact or the organizing groups transport just getting stuff like I was asked to pick up leaflets a couple of times and take them to various
00:34:53 them to various um squats and drop off. I took boxes and boxes of stuff up to the sort of pre-amp. You'll be aware that I'm sure that there was a a gathering about three months before the actual G8. I think I
00:35:06 months before the actual G8. I think I was someone who wouldn't be challenged, you know, in turning up for organizing meetings. Probably a fairly forgettable face, quite frankly. So, a a very forgettable face and we'll
00:35:17 So, a a very forgettable face and we'll we'll come on to it in due course, but have has your attention been drawn to it's a statement that has been recently produced. I just want to bring it up on the screen um now if we may. It's it's
00:35:29 the screen um now if we may. It's it's referred to as a collective statement. It's at UCPI 39749. I wonder if you can please bring that document up.
00:35:47 So you can see the way in which it's headed. Collective statement in response to documents relevant to your deployment. I wonder if we can just go to the penultimate page, please.
00:36:02 So we can see there that this is a document that's that's been signed on behalf of a number of people. And I just want to just go through so that you're aware of who's contributed to this
00:36:13 aware of who's contributed to this document. It's relevant to what's said in it. So you can see Donald O'Driscoll, Kate Wilson. Please could we turn over the page?
00:36:26 You can got Anthony Thompson, Ben Ley, Cherry Gibbons, Elellanena Fradera, Emily Apple, Guy Taylor, Indra Don Franchesco, Jason Kirk
00:36:37 Taylor, Indra Don Franchesco, Jason Kirk Patrick, Jay Jordan, Kim Brian, Martin Shaw, Null Douglas, Paul Chatteran, person recording PWE, Tom Fowler, person we're calling VSSP, Zoe Young. Now those
00:36:49 we're calling VSSP, Zoe Young. Now those names,
00:36:50 names, are you familiar with with some of them? Yes. Okay. Now, in relation to the document that we we were looking at before, and I wonder if we could please go back uh to um MPS7
00:37:05 could please go back uh to um MPS7 3489. So, B106 again. So, I just want to ask
00:37:11 ask you about again going through this document for accuracy and you've already made clear this is not your um document. Um but there are a number of comments in
00:37:23 Um but there are a number of comments in the statement that we've just looked at. Now we were looking at the descent network on page one. Can you see the next row is the London Action Resource Center Lark uh and the Rampart Social Center because
00:37:36 uh and the Rampart Social Center because here it says you RW is a well-known face at both of these venues often used for organizing meetings and social fundraisers by a wide variety of groups
00:37:49 fundraisers by a wide variety of groups drawn from the autonomous left and again it's the same question is that accurate in relation to Lark and Rampart I I I went to both those places
00:38:01 I I I went to both those places uh half a dozen times. So I wouldn't say I was a well-known face. No. So in terms of what was set out and the statement that we just looked at in
00:38:12 statement that we just looked at in response to this particular paragraph, it is said that is untrue. And the authors of that statement say, "We accept that he may have turned up at some of the hundreds of social events or
00:38:25 some of the hundreds of social events or even some of the meetings hosted in these spaces. However, to say he was a well-known face is significantly overstating the reality well known to who is the
00:38:37 the reality well known to who is the response." And so is that is that a fair response to this to say that it's significantly overstating the reality? a well-known face. It's somewhat
00:38:48 a well-known face. It's somewhat subjective, but yes, probably. Thank you. I wonder if you can just turn over the page, please. I'm not going to go through every uh example here. Um the
00:38:59 through every uh example here. Um the space hijackers. And so again, is that the space hijackers? Did they feature in the second part of your deployment? I I don't think so. Not very much. I
00:39:10 I I don't think so. Not very much. I mean, much more in the first phase. I knew I won't name them but I I well his name's I knew Robin and um his partner relatively well. I I you know Globaliz
00:39:23 relatively well. I I you know Globaliz did quite a lot of their work in organizing in their I think it was at Limehouse Town Hall. We built the orange and pink tank that we discussed yesterday briefly in their space. So, so
00:39:35 yesterday briefly in their space. So, so in terms of prop building in the globalized resistance days rather than after your expulsion from there. Is
00:39:46 than after your expulsion from there. Is that right? Yes.
00:39:48 Yes. So, and again we remind ourselves of when this document this SDS note was produced April 2007. This is three years after you left Globalize. So when it
00:39:59 after you left Globalize. So when it says very good access to this autonomous situationalist group currently organizing for Mayday and mobilizing for the G8 summit particularly good access
00:40:10 the G8 summit particularly good access to their de facto leader uh Robin Priestley and privacy and so in relation to that is that out of date?
00:40:21 to that is that out of date? Yes, absolutely. Okay. I mean, I think if I reached out to Robin, you know, I I then I would have a good conversation with him, unless he was cited on the GR compromise
00:40:32 unless he was cited on the GR compromise and just hung up. But yeah. Okay. Now, if we just drop down a couple of rows in this document, clandestine insurgent rebel, clown army, circa.
00:40:46 insurgent rebel, clown army, circa. So, again, I just want to um ask you about the description which is given of your deployments. very good access to this collective that will inevitably be of interest at the German G8 because of
00:40:58 of interest at the German G8 because of their very high visibility and tactic of clowning confrontation with frontline police units. RW was at the founding meeting of this group. Just pausing there. Is that
00:41:10 group. Just pausing there. Is that correct?
00:41:11 correct? Um I was definitely at an early meeting. I I couldn't confirm if it was the the very first one. I certainly did a a training there or a a clown workshop um
00:41:25 training there or a a clown workshop um quite early on. But um perhaps to add some clarity to that, I I remember that when I initially had conversations cuz conversations were
00:41:36 had conversations cuz conversations were ongoing, you know, with the squad and about the way to attack the G8 generally, I was basically indicated to me that there was
00:41:48 me that there was or was going to be uh good access to that group and I could back off completely from it. Okay. Just to continue with um this paragraph. So RW was at the founding
00:42:00 paragraph. So RW was at the founding meeting of this group and took part in their first trainings as they prepared for the Glenn Eagles G8. Good personal relationships with uh Isa Fmo, one of the collective founder activists and to
00:42:12 the collective founder activists and to a slightly lesser degree uh with her boyfriend John Jordan who is the de facto leader of the group. Now, and we can go to it if necessary.
00:42:24 Now, and we can go to it if necessary. In that collective statement that we were looking at at paragraph 586, it says this. J. Jordan categorically states that neither he nor his partner
00:42:36 states that neither he nor his partner recall Wellings in any way. We have no memory of him at all. May and in terms of what you said about being forgetful,
00:42:49 of what you said about being forgetful, does that make c can you help us with this? Because here there's a description of you having a good personal relationship with these people and then we have a statement saying that they
00:43:00 we have a statement saying that they charact categorically state that neither um he or his partner recall you. So how how could which is correct? I I I didn't have a good, you know, in-depth personal
00:43:11 have a good, you know, in-depth personal relationship with um Isra at all. I met her perhaps two or three times after after I can't remember where it went and probably had a drink with her amongst a
00:43:22 probably had a drink with her amongst a group of other people, but it wasn't anything more than that really.
00:43:28 This is an SDS note in April 2007. Yes. Now by that stage um what what was happening in the SDS that
00:43:41 what what was happening in the SDS that would lead and we haven't come to the end of this document to an exaggerated and inaccurate document such as this being produced. I I don't know. I'm I'm I'm quite surprised to see this in April 2007
00:43:54 surprised to see this in April 2007 because the writing had been on the wall, you know, for a long time before then. uh probably 15 months before then that the unit's days were numbered and could and could have closed at any
00:44:06 could and could have closed at any moment, you know, with perhaps 10 days notice. Um so I I I'm not sure is a frank answer. But are you are you shocked unsurprised
00:44:19 But are you are you shocked unsurprised given that the SDS in in your description an elites unit the focus of which was intelligence and here is a document describing a deployment of a
00:44:32 document describing a deployment of a UCO that has been in the SDS for many years exaggerated and inaccurate. Are you surprised or or not so surprised by this stage? No, I'm I'm I'm quite surprised. I mean it's you know you know the days were
00:44:45 it's you know you know the days were numbered quite frankly at this stage and I I don't know I can't offer any explanation I apologize just the next uh row is a reference to
00:44:56 just the next uh row is a reference to indie media and again just want to idea of accuracy of this document but it also informs um our understanding of the nature of your deployment after 2004. So
00:45:07 nature of your deployment after 2004. So for indie media, it says good solid access to this independent media outlet that is of such toemic importance to the UK autonomous movement.
00:45:20 UK autonomous movement. Is that accurate? Good solid access? Well, anybody's got good solid access to India really. It's a it's a website. It's a bulletin board.
00:45:33 So for someone who has no familiarity with indie media at all, someone who is completely new to this area, reading that
00:45:44 that they would not appreciate that not only do you have good solid access, but anyone with an internet connection would have the same. Yeah, I mean every obviously anybody's
00:45:56 Yeah, I mean every obviously anybody's got uh access to the website. I certainly assisted and you'll remember that my cover employment was about computer networking and that I took up a load of uh Cat 5 network cables up to
00:46:08 load of uh Cat 5 network cables up to Scotland with me. I did I did do something at the Forest Cafe. I can vaguely remember, but it wasn't much more than putting some switches and things in. Well, on that precise point, you can see the next sentence. RW has assisted in
00:46:21 the next sentence. RW has assisted in the setting up of numerous intermediate hubs with regard to both IT systems. Glenn Eagles above the forest cafes which you just referred to. So is that
00:46:32 which you just referred to. So is that sentence or that if we just I'll continue reading the rest of the sentence and supply of alt tech power various eco camps and festivals. Is is that at least accurate
00:46:43 festivals. Is is that at least accurate that you assisted setting up the IT systems forest cafe and the tech power? Yeah, the I took some solar panels up with me um when we went into
00:46:56 panels up with me um when we went into the main camp at Sterling for the G8 and some cabling again, but and I I took up a load of well not a load about four,
00:47:08 a load of well not a load about four, you know, 25 m extension cable sockets that were asked that somebody asked me to bring um and helped you know I mean for context when these events are
00:47:19 for context when these events are happening there's often an india hub. But an intermediate hub could just be an existing uh squatted space or a cafe or a tent in a field quite frankly with
00:47:30 a tent in a field quite frankly with some solar panels and a generator outside. It's an area where people can return to and access the IT there to upload stories onto onto the intermedia site perhaps or other websites, you
00:47:43 site perhaps or other websites, you know, to process digital photography or video, do some editing. Did you have a particular interest or were you developing a particular interest in in the media side of the groups that you
00:47:55 the media side of the groups that you were looking at? Um, not particularly. I I felt relatively comfortable with that. Um, and it was, you know, if you were asked to help out briefly, it was, you know, it was an area I felt quite comfortable
00:48:07 it was an area I felt quite comfortable with. Yes. Could you help us with photographs during your deployments? What photographs? So we're familiar with for example the fit team who
00:48:19 example the fit team who take photographs that that is what the focus but what about you what's in the context of media and you're just describing ind media and your connection there but what photographs were you
00:48:30 there but what photographs were you taking during this this period during this phase none I don't think I I had a a when I was with globalize I had a fairly b it's
00:48:42 was with globalize I had a fairly b it's fairly early days of digital photography so I a you know I had a camera I used to take and I took pictures on demos and things largely for the website uh to put up here but I think by this stage I
00:48:54 up here but I think by this stage I never carried a camera so I wasn't taking photographs myself at all and so sorry to go back to the globalized days so it would would this be correct just my understanding your
00:49:06 be correct just my understanding your evidence that at demonstrations you would be there with a camera but this these were photographs your evidence is that that would go on the globalized resistance website rather
00:49:17 globalized resistance website rather than going back to your managers and disseminated to cease. No, they'd go on to the website and if they if they had captured people who were of interest, I would absolutely put them into
00:49:28 absolutely put them into into the office as well. All right, going back to this document we have on screen. The last sentence says, and this is again about intermedia, RW holds one
00:49:39 is again about intermedia, RW holds one of only about 20 permanent access all areas plastic passes for UK intermedia. Is that sentence accurate? No, it's it's not. I don't I don't think
00:49:50 No, it's it's not. I don't I don't think there were any access all area plastic passes for UK. I did have a plastic laminated pass that just had indie media on it which someone had possibly seen
00:50:02 on it which someone had possibly seen but that was going all the way back to New York I think where you had to sort of check into the the intermedia hub that was set up there and I kept it as
00:50:13 that was set up there and I kept it as wallet litter really it was something quite useful to have them a wallet but it was it was largely meaningless it wasn't like a an accredited press pass or
00:50:21 or so in the collective statement that we looked about it. What is set out there is it states there were no plastic access all areas passes. So which
00:50:32 access all areas passes. So which reflects what you've just said. Yeah.
00:50:34 Yeah. So
00:50:34 So well I'm not cited on I would be very surprised if they had them. Can you help us with
00:50:40 us with and appreciate what your evidence is that you didn't you weren't involved in the drafting of this document, but can you help us with how that sentence could appear in this uh SDS note that you hold
00:50:51 appear in this uh SDS note that you hold one of only it's quite specific. you hold one of only about 20 permanent access all areas plastic passes for UK
00:51:02 access all areas plastic passes for UK indie media because I mean we can overanalyze the sentence but it's very specific about the number the nature of the pass the fact that it's plastic any idea how this could have ended up in
00:51:14 idea how this could have ended up in this this document at all none at all I'm afraid all right thank you if we could just go to the next uh entry please on the schedules as refers to um
00:51:25 please on the schedules as refers to um Earth first um climate camp collectives and I just again want to ask you the same question um about the accuracy and
00:51:37 same question um about the accuracy and therefore just giving us an indication of your deployment at this time. So it says comprehensive to good access into these groups. Uh very many of the activists involved in these networks and
00:51:48 activists involved in these networks and indeed the issue itself are also active in the descent network and others. Uh where this is the case eg those groups based in Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Sheffield, Leeds, Cambridge and to a
00:52:00 Sheffield, Leeds, Cambridge and to a lesser degree Edinburgh access I is is excellent. Now, uh to what extent, if any, is that an accurate description of
00:52:11 any, is that an accurate description of your uh access uh to Earth First and Climate Camp collectives? Yeah, it's it's an exaggeration at at best. I you know, I I would have diff
00:52:24 best. I you know, I I would have diff you know, difficulty differentiating Earth really from from descent. they often,
00:52:30 often, you know, there were communications out which came from both those those groups. But
00:52:34 But and to be fair to you 118, in your statement, you you say that you didn't in infiltrate Earth first. I I mean it's I I didn't but it's it's you know a lot
00:52:45 I I didn't but it's it's you know a lot of these groups are you know spring up the ven diagram of overlap would be you know would be quite dense but people wouldn't generally um identify themselves as only you know they
00:52:57 themselves as only you know they wouldn't identify themselves as being a member of earth first I think it was a cause it was an area of um of sort of activity that would be one of many areas that people would um take
00:53:10 many areas that people would um take part in
00:53:11 part in and just from the perspective of geography um Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Sheffield, Leeds, Cambridge, Edinburgh. Um it would have been difficult physically for you to be um
00:53:25 physically for you to be um regularly at all of those locations. Yeah. No, no, definitely. I I I went to the Cowi Club I don't know J 10 or 12 times. I would have thought ever. Um
00:53:36 times. I would have thought ever. Um I'm just going to pause you there. I wonder if we can because we can see there's a reference to the Cowi Club there. So you just mentioned that you had been um there about 10 about 10 or so times
00:53:48 so times and and so there is there is this is this document is not completely inaccurate. There are there are some details that are correct. Now, in
00:53:59 details that are correct. Now, in relation to what's written about the Cowi Club, Brighton, RW is a well-known face at the Cowi Club and has good access to meetings held there. Now,
00:54:10 access to meetings held there. Now, you've explained how many times that you went there about uh 10 times. Um would you describe yourself um there
00:54:22 Um would you describe yourself um there as a well-known uh face? No.
00:54:26 No. All right. Thank you. If we just go so very good access to a number of individuals nominally and if we just go over the page please. Um all right. Um
00:54:37 over the page please. Um all right. Um nor nominally resident in Brighton such as privacy and privacy good access to the smash EDO campaign. Is that accurate in a
00:54:46 in a no
00:54:47 no no? All right. Um the commonplace is the next um
00:54:56 group. the commonplace social centers leads comprehensive access to the center itself and many of the activists often found there such as privacy and Paul Chatterton.
00:55:08 Chatterton. So can I may I ask you about your deployment the second part of your deployment to what extent if any did you have any interaction with the commonplace social center in Leeds? I'm
00:55:19 commonplace social center in Leeds? I'm I'm sure I went there once, maybe twice. I knew someone. I don't have any memory of Paul Chhatton unless there's a picture I could see perhaps. But um if this well this I don't know whether
00:55:31 if this well this I don't know whether this would assist but in that statement the collective statement that we were looking at before there's a quote from Paul Chatterton who says I was involved
00:55:43 Paul Chatterton who says I was involved in the common place for several years uh and I have no recollection of Wellings attending any meetings or events there. Would that be fair?
00:55:55 Would that be fair? Yeah, I think it would. Yeah. All right. the reference. Then if we can just go through the next entry, the Sumac Center in Nottingham in the second part of your deployment to what extent did you have
00:56:07 deployment to what extent did you have um interaction or attend the Sumac Center in Nottingham, please? I I I certainly went there for at least one organizing meeting. I remember it
00:56:19 one organizing meeting. I remember it quite well because somebody who was very well known to me um in my previous uh work with GR turned up late to a meeting that had
00:56:33 turned up late to a meeting that had already started. We were sat in a sort of horseshoe or a circle um and she walked in and I thought this was going to be a very very short meeting for me because she's bound to
00:56:46 meeting for me because she's bound to point at me and say this guy we've you know we outed him and got rid of him as a an informant. So, I can remember I've got quite a vivid memory of quietly
00:56:58 got quite a vivid memory of quietly beginning to sort of pack my bag up because I thought I was going to have to um uh you know, I was going to be confronted at any moment. Um but I I see that I probably went there two or three
00:57:09 that I probably went there two or three times I would say. Um in in the same part it says RW has good access to this open social space and community cafe
00:57:21 open social space and community cafe which is often used for national gatherings of various autonomous groups such as descent and assorted hunt sab groups. And then this particularly good access into the vegan field kitchen
00:57:32 access into the vegan field kitchen group veggies that often provides catering facilities inside the eco camps that spring up around some advent. venues and so is we well we can see it's
00:57:44 venues and so is we well we can see it's very specific. It says that you um had particularly good access uh to veggies. Is is that correct? No, not at all. I did I did some very
00:57:55 No, not at all. I did I did some very limited work with um with food up in Edinburgh later on, including getting some supplies into the the camp, but so did dozens of other people. Um
00:58:10 um if we just finish off this the schedule, there's only three more entries just to um have your response. And the Matilda Collective in Sheffield, although the Matilda is currently evicted from its squat close to the main
00:58:22 evicted from its squat close to the main railway station, various activists remain active in the area primarily because of local studies. Access remains good.
00:58:32 good. What's your analysis of what's set out in that row? No, I I don't remember going to Sheffield ever. All right. I
00:58:43 All right. I um
00:58:45 um trying to remember. There was a squat somewhere I visited up that way. It might have been called the Jam Factory. Was that Sheffield? But I I don't remember going there. All right. Thank you. The next entry is Cardiff Anarchist Network, South Wales.
00:58:57 Cardiff Anarchist Network, South Wales. excellent access into this strategically important grouping including access to significant individuals uh such as and we um cipher them PWE and VSSP. Could
00:59:08 we um cipher them PWE and VSSP. Could you help us with your deployment? To what extent did it relate to the Cardiff Anarchist Network, please?
00:59:17 please? Um not very much at all. I knew a couple of there were a couple of very well-known activists from Cardiff I had met socially uh and at meetings half a dozen times
00:59:29 uh and at meetings half a dozen times perhaps I sus um I suspect I know who those people are underneath the privacy uh boxes but again not not um you know that's a an exaggeration quite frankly
00:59:42 that's a an exaggeration quite frankly again I may not be particularly relevant but I was there were a lot of meetings going on Um and I think I hinted at this earlier when I hinted but spoke about I
00:59:53 earlier when I hinted but spoke about I was trying to sort of make sure you know could we deconlict across this and again I had word came back down that I could you know that that was an area that was already very well covered and I could
01:00:05 already very well covered and I could you know there wasn't much point in expending any resource into it. The two people who I suspect are underneath those privacy boxes are both significant organizers.
01:00:18 Now we can see that the next part of it is headed international and I'm not going to ask you about any details of what you did outside of uh England. But
01:00:33 what you did outside of uh England. But I would like your just your broad comment on what is set out at the bottom of this page please
01:00:43 because it's it refers to your international access and it refers to a number of events and it says these events have taken place in countries
01:00:55 events have taken place in countries such as France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, the United states. Again, I'm not going to ask you about the details of what you did in
01:01:06 about the details of what you did in those countries, but did you attend all of those countries during your deployment?
01:01:14 Yes. If someone were to uh ask what has
01:01:23 what has what happens in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, and the United States? What has that got to do with policing in England, particularly in London? What what would
01:01:35 particularly in London? What what would your response to that be? Um, I I suppose I would say that it's it's possible to organize overseas um you know, for activity that was due to take place in London and the UK. Um, you
01:01:49 take place in London and the UK. Um, you know, the the sort of summit hopping nature of a lot of these protests meant that people, you know, certainly from Europe would try, you know, would reason. We knew that lots of people
01:02:00 reason. We knew that lots of people would travel from overseas to attend the G8 protests um in Scotland for sure. Would it be unfair if someone were to make um this criticism
01:02:12 make um this criticism that at public expense uh you um are paid to travel to these uh uh countries? Um and it doesn't really assist at all
01:02:26 Um and it doesn't really assist at all in public order policing in London or or England. It's not justified. I I I would agree that I, you know, I would I respectfully point out I was already being paid. So perhaps it didn't matter
01:02:38 being paid. So perhaps it didn't matter where I was at that time, but um you know to to get information from those countries or territories about the numbers and the the sort of demeanor of
01:02:50 numbers and the the sort of demeanor of people who are likely to come to for the G8, albeit not in London. I obviously um accept. I still think that would be useful. Um but I I I see your point.
01:03:01 useful. Um but I I I see your point. In your own mind, did you consider it a perk of the job that you were doing at the time were to travel to these countries? Yes.
01:03:10 Yes. No, I I didn't. And I you know I wasn't largely staying in hotels or um you know sightseeing. I would be working. So I I want to move away from that to what is
01:03:22 I want to move away from that to what is set out. I wonder if we can move to page seven. So this is the last uh page of the document.
01:03:32 And there's a reference to cyberspace. Okay, this is not meant in any sort of flippant way. The internet is of vital
01:03:44 flippant way. The internet is of vital importance when considering coverage of the autonomous left. 95% of the organizing that took place against the Glenn Eagles G8 took place online.
01:03:55 Glenn Eagles G8 took place online. Now, pausing there as we were talking about your um increased use of the internet in relation to
01:04:06 internet in relation to your your work undercover. I is that accurate? Would you align yourself with what's set out in that paragraph, particularly that 95% of the organizing in relation to that
01:04:19 of the organizing in relation to that event took place online? Is that accurate? No, but it's difficult to it's difficult to know you know organizing is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, isn't it? But a lot of communication clearly, but I you know
01:04:32 communication clearly, but I you know you can you can talk and communicate online as much as you like. It's what actually is happening on the ground which is uh important. Uh the next paragraph, the emergence of voice over internet protocol telefan
01:04:46 internet protocol telefan just pausing there. a number of times during your evidence you've referred to your IT expertise. Were you familiar with with VOIPE at this time? So this is about 2007. I not
01:05:00 this time? So this is about 2007. I not not about the intricacies of how VOIP works but certainly you know communication online by voice and I can remember I can remember quite a lot of excitement and no
01:05:13 quite a lot of excitement and no excitement is the wrong word interest in Skype telephony when it first came out the coming down from you know from the desk and others in trying to establish if people had that sort of technology at
01:05:26 if people had that sort of technology at their disposal and I can remember being asked about that on more than one occasion.
01:05:32 occasion. Being asked by your managers about that? Yes. Well, not specifically by my managers, but communication coming back down from the desk to try and establish. So, could this have come from you? The
01:05:43 So, could this have come from you? The emergence of VoIP has also had a significant effect on communications between significant activists over the last 18 months or so. Is that something that could come from you? I I would have mentioned it, but then it
01:05:54 I would have mentioned it, but then it was already being mentioned to me from RW has excellent access to a number of closed and moderated email lists that
01:06:05 closed and moderated email lists that are host to literally hundreds of emails a day as the German G8 approaches. Uh he also has author privileges on a number of significant websites and is a regular
01:06:19 of significant websites and is a regular and recognized contributor to a number of sites that carry theoretical debate about the future of the movement. Number of points in that paragraph, but
01:06:31 Number of points in that paragraph, but broadly is that accurate or not? No, it's not accurate at all. Not accurate at all. Well, I I I certainly had access to I had access to at least a couple of email lists, I
01:06:43 at least a couple of email lists, I think, where you had you'd had to know someone to get approved to be or someone had to vouch for you in some way, but you know, most people had access to any
01:06:54 you know, most people had access to any number of lists that were circulating. What's the reference to author privileges? Do you know? Does that mean anything to you? No, it doesn't. I Well, I I can speculate. I suppose it means that
01:07:07 speculate. I suppose it means that you were able to edit the content on that website, but I certainly didn't have any
01:07:13 have any a recognized contributor to a number of sites
01:07:18 sites that carry theoretical debate about the future of the movement. No.
01:07:22 No. No. Now, we're going to move away from this document. Can you see at the end at the bottom if we zoom out it says this is a live document and will be amended as access increases or decreases in
01:07:35 as access increases or decreases in specific areas last updated the 25th of April 2007. Does that assist you in any way identifying the the provenence of this
01:07:46 identifying the the provenence of this document?
01:07:48 document? No, it doesn't, I'm afraid. Could we please take that down? I'm going to ask if we could please bring up on screen MPS75739.
01:08:00 Sir, this is at your tab B132. Um, and which is in volume three. I'm going to ask if we could Yes. Now
01:08:14 I'm going to return in due course to these logs and how they came about. But for for current purposes um firstly does this do you recognize
01:08:27 um firstly does this do you recognize this this document? Have you seen this before?
01:08:29 before? Yes, I think so. Is this uh something that you produced? Yes.
01:08:34 Yes. All right. So ring wraithraith events log week commencing Monday the 13th of August 2007 all timings approximate. So every so what we see if
01:08:45 approximate. So every so what we see if wonder if we can just go forward to page three please.
01:08:51 So there if we have a look we can see if we choose Friday the 17th of August. This is Friday the 17th of August 2007.
01:09:02 This is Friday the 17th of August 2007. So is this a snapshot of your deployment? This is of course coming to the end, but as far as you're concerned, it's a snapshot of of your day as an SDS
01:09:15 snapshot of of your day as an SDS undercover officer. Is that right? Yes, pretty much. And this is one of the things that came in with the new regime of management at the end of SDS. We had to account for every hour of every day,
01:09:27 to account for every hour of every day, seven days a week. When you started you were phoning the office how many times a day?
01:09:33 day? Uh a phone call in the morning, a phone call in the afternoon. Two two week uh a meeting twice a week. Yes.
01:09:40 Yes. But by this stage things have changed. Yes. Yes. Oh, very much so. All right. Now we can see work today. So 7:45 in the morning online. Check various websites and bulletin boards
01:09:52 various websites and bulletin boards associated with autonomous left. check email on various e-lists, some open and some closed moderated. Now, just pausing there when you say some closed, what
01:10:03 there when you say some closed, what does that mean, please? Um, I I think it just means that it was some of the lists that you were on. You you had to, you know, you had to be sort of approved or accessed. you there were
01:10:14 of approved or accessed. you there were lists, you know, there were lots and lots of e-lists, email groups in existence and some of them you only got um not invited to join, but someone would say, "Oh, here on this bit of
01:10:27 would say, "Oh, here on this bit of paper, you know, make sure you sign up to this and we'll we'll get you involved." Would it be unfair to say this that although described as closed groups, quite easy to access them?
01:10:39 quite easy to access them? Yeah, I mean, yes, absolutely. Sometimes sometimes if you went into a uh an organizing space, you know, a convergence center or something like that or, you know, there would be a
01:10:50 that or, you know, there would be a something up on the wall with little tear off bits at the bottom and you could pull one off. And well, you were describing yesterday the first half of your deployment a and
01:11:01 the first half of your deployment a and how it got to you in terms of living a lie and lying to all sorts of people. But by this stage, as you just described, to get into a closed group, sometimes it might just mean just
01:11:12 sometimes it might just mean just pulling off part of it's like these pieces of paper with the contact details repeated and you just tear that off. So, a very different type of uh deployment to compare to the
01:11:26 type of uh deployment to compare to the globalized resistance. It it was different. Absolutely. And I think by necessity, you couldn't you couldn't focus on one little group or geographical area. And in fact, I I
01:11:37 geographical area. And in fact, I I remember having or requesting a meeting about the sort of deconfeiction side and also to try and explore whether it would be possible that some of this type of work could be conducted, you know, if
01:11:48 work could be conducted, you know, if there was such a thing back then by an online undercover officer who never showed their face, if that makes sense. whether there was some, you know, whether it could be uh done by a department, you know, in a police
01:12:00 department, you know, in a police building where they could just open source it and have good access to the stuff that was was flying around and sign up. I was aware that there were undercover officers
01:12:11 that there were undercover officers working online in different types of crime. Um, and I was just hoping to explore whether that existed in this context as well. All right, can you just finish this entry here? So answer males contribute
01:12:24 entry here? So answer males contribute to various threads on message boards. Could you just give us a picture of a message board? What what sort of comments would be on there access? Is this just for example you could have a
01:12:36 this just for example you could have a newspaper article and people put all sorts of comments on the bottom? Is it similar to that? It's that sort of thing. Yes. And and also sometimes you could add clarity or useful information or if somebody needed
01:12:48 useful information or if somebody needed some resource or other you could say I can do that or you know vice versa and extract information for use in intelligence reports. I don't mean this as um a criticism or or belittling in
01:13:01 as um a criticism or or belittling in this way, but if someone were to say, well, what you were doing is you were going online to publicly available information and you were copy pasting them into intel reports and sending them
01:13:14 them into intel reports and sending them to your managers. Would that be an unfair description? No, not there was a lot of that going on and I think by necessity there was so much information flying around and and also it was it
01:13:25 flying around and and also it was it sounds very basic doesn't it but there was a very you know there was no understanding about where to go I think in sort of upstairs or you know back at
01:13:36 in sort of upstairs or you know back at the back at the desk about which sites to monitor which were serious which weren't and and also I was constantly being asked to provide context on what
01:13:47 being asked to provide context on what things meant if that makes sense. You know, what does this actually mean and and
01:13:52 and is this serious? Were you in a situation where your managers had very little uh expertise or knowledge on the
01:14:04 uh expertise or knowledge on the internet and so uh it is very easy for you to be in a position where you can provide information although publicly available because your managers perhaps were um were more uh traditional in the
01:14:18 were um were more uh traditional in the documents that they uh access that it was very easy to impress them or two. No, I don't think I don't think that's the case. I think they you know they could copy paste themselves, but it was
01:14:29 could copy paste themselves, but it was I what I was able to do and quite often did was to provide context about that information and sort of you know this means that and and that that was a you know something that happened very
01:14:41 know something that happened very frequently on the runup to certainly to the Glenn Eagles G8 and in fact we went up to meet senior officers. I went up I think two or three times in the end. Uh
01:14:53 think two or three times in the end. Uh meetings were sought from us to uh to try and get a handle on on the on the feel and and and look and the shape of the policing presence to to the G8 where where you know the organi where the
01:15:05 where you know the organi where the activist scene was um you know was was about to establish. So I asked you yesterday about a number of times feedback from managers and your response was that it was always positive
01:15:16 response was that it was always positive about your reporting. It was always positive. But did you ever receive any feedback in relation to the latter part of your deployment along the lines of well all of this this material is
01:15:28 well all of this this material is available on online? Does it why are you sending us this? Why are you not getting more involved in the groups of that nature? Did that No, no, not at all. and and I think there was an acceptance that it would have
01:15:39 was an acceptance that it would have been that actually trying to keep a lighter touch on six or seven areas throughout the UK even the context of the G8 was actually quite a sensible way
01:15:51 the G8 was actually quite a sensible way to do it. And also for context at this time when going into you know you never knew from one week to another whether the unit was going to exist at
01:16:03 whether the unit was going to exist at the end of the week. They blew constantly hot and cold. One week you'd go in and it was great. We're, you know, this is going to happen. The next week you went in and it was it
01:16:14 The next week you went in and it was it was sort of be prepared to pull stakes at any moment. You know, it we could be shut in 10 days time. So, light touch back off a bit. Sorry. The who could be closed in 10
01:16:25 Sorry. The who could be closed in 10 days time? The SDS.
01:16:27 The SDS. And who who said that? Um, it was well, it was coming from the new management regime really. I'm I'm talking forgive me I'm not confident of the date but when Mike Dell left um uh
01:16:41 the date but when Mike Dell left um uh other people came in to manage and from that moment on it was completely obvious the writing was on the wall that the SDS was going to be wound up. It was
01:16:53 the SDS was going to be wound up. It was a question of when not if DCI
01:16:57 DCI Mike Dell left about September 2005. Does that
01:17:02 Does that uh if you'd asked me point blank I would have put it so not right at the end not no
01:17:08 no December 2007 January 2008 um we we'll come to the closure of the SDS but you your evidence is that by the last period of DCIDell being in
01:17:21 by the last period of DCIDell being in charge it the writing was already on the wall as far as the SDS no forgive me it it not when Mike was still there but almost immediately after Um, forgive me, I can't remember if I can say his name. I'll look at it
01:17:33 can say his name. I'll look at it quickly. Uh, DCI Julian McKini that was referred to yesterday. Is that Yes. Yes. Him and um HN275
01:17:44 Yes. Yes. Him and um HN275 Frankie Flood. So that in that Frankie Frankie came in to replace Mike is my memory. But no, Julian did admit originally, didn't he? And then he was promoted superintendent and Frankie
01:17:56 was promoted superintendent and Frankie came in.
01:17:56 came in. All right. But yes, we will we will explore that that period toward towards the end of your evidence. May I just go back to this document here because afterwards it says the next entry 11:30 it says to
01:18:09 it says the next entry 11:30 it says to the to Duff which is to your your your Duff
01:18:12 Duff Yeah.
01:18:13 Yeah. accommodation. So where where were you from 7:45 to 11:30? Where would you have been at home or Yeah, I would have been working from my desk at home.
01:18:28 Was that a significant change as well in the in this post globalized resistance period of your deployment that you could spend more time at home because you all
01:18:39 spend more time at home because you all you needed was an internet connection to do a lot of um some of the time. Yes. Okay. All right. Other times, you know, I was on, you know, moving around the UK and attending other meetings and and stuff, but yeah,
01:18:51 other meetings and and stuff, but yeah, absolutely. Okay. And it says to Duff and then an hour later to camp for climate action. Uh and then it says arrive. Could you
01:19:03 Uh and then it says arrive. Could you just help us with the timings there just because this is a snapshot of Friday the 17th of August 2007. It allows us to see what you were doing. So could you
01:19:15 to see what you were doing. So could you just talk us through sort of 1130 to,400 hours that sort of period there? Forgive me. The camp for climb action
01:19:26 Forgive me. The camp for climb action was the Heathrow camp. Mhm.
01:19:28 Mhm. Um which Yeah. So I would have gone to to my D first. You'd never travel somewhere direct if that makes sense. And then clearly I made my way um to
01:19:40 And then clearly I made my way um to Heathrow and arrived at about 2:00. All right. All right.
01:19:50 I I I if it helps at all. I was very, you know, by by this stage, you know, um if forgive me, this is 2007, isn't it? It is. Yes, it is. August 2007. So, it's
01:20:04 It is. Yes, it is. August 2007. So, it's right at the end of your deployment. You know, it was, you know, literally the days were numbered by this stage and I was very, very keen not to attend the camp for
01:20:15 very keen not to attend the camp for climate action because I was meant to be halfway through my withdrawal phase, but um, you know, it was the word came down from on high that it had to be covered and I was pretty much ordered to go. Um,
01:20:28 and I was pretty much ordered to go. Um, I was quite reluctant quite frankly, but Okay. I wonder if we can take that down. So I want to move from uh your and we can take the whole document down your
01:20:41 can take the whole document down your your research um online to uh another uh topic and I wonder if we could please uh bring up 0526807
01:20:55 which is in volume three.
01:21:04 Now, this is a collection of um authorizations for your deployments. And I just want to have a look um at
01:21:17 have a look um at this is a tab B8 B86 in volume three. This I wonder if we could go to page nine in this document, please. So this is an authorization
01:21:29 is an authorization uh
01:21:31 uh this was an authorization from Mike Dell. the date of it, the 1st of September 2005.
01:21:40 A and I just want to again in terms of these sort of authorizations, you you mentioned yesterday that the uh management, the office try to protect
01:21:51 management, the office try to protect you from the bureaucracy o of the police and that maybe you might have glanced at a document or or or signed an authorization. But but this uh page and
01:22:02 authorization. But but this uh page and the authorization is that is that something that you remember seeing at the time or or difficult to remember? No, I I don't think I would have seen this at all. Now again in terms of what is set out
01:22:15 Now again in terms of what is set out here. says since the last update uh ring's conduct and use on the 7th of June05 the following intelligence has been gathered uh produced 137 intelligence reports uh and then I just
01:22:27 intelligence reports uh and then I just want to go through in terms of the summary of of the reporting that's sent out says the high volume of reporting during this period uh reflects the intense activity by an involvement in the buildup and execution of activity by
01:22:39 the buildup and execution of activity by UCO ring uh in relation to G8 protests in Scotland uh briefings continue to be provided to desk officers, the NPOIU and T-side police, particularly with
01:22:50 T-side police, particularly with reference to the anarchist elements intent on causing violence during the summit. Now, in relation to to G8, it's the first bullet point. Um, is it right
01:23:02 the first bullet point. Um, is it right that that's um took up a significant amount of your um focus, your time after you moved from globalized resistance? Yes.
01:23:13 Yes. I want to ask you about the briefings that are referred to and I would like you to be very specific in relation to these because I'm only going to be asking you about briefings that took
01:23:24 asking you about briefings that took place in England in this country. Yes.
01:23:27 Yes. What briefings did you provide uh in this country about the forthcoming G8?
01:23:38 this country about the forthcoming G8? Um well I I certainly spoke to desk officers a lot about the GA activity. I I have never briefed the NOIU or indeed knowingly met with any of
01:23:51 or indeed knowingly met with any of their management. Um I forgive me I we I definitely briefed officers from Tay-side at quite a senior level and I don't know whether we met
01:24:02 level and I don't know whether we met them in England. I'm not being mely mouthed. I have a recollection of if I if I can ask it in this way. Can you give us any evidence of anything to
01:24:13 you give us any evidence of anything to do with them that took place in this country?
01:24:15 country? No.
01:24:15 No. No. All right. Can we move to the second bullet point? The quality and quantity of both the strategic and tactical intelligence provided by Ringraith has been subject to high praise by Tesai
01:24:26 been subject to high praise by Tesai police and was a crucial factor in the successful policing of the anti-summit demonstrations. Did did you ever receive feedback from what's referred to as
01:24:37 feedback from what's referred to as customers generally in during your deployment? No, hardly. Hardly ever. So the feedback that you received, if any, was from your managers about your
01:24:48 any, was from your managers about your reporting? Yes,
01:24:51 Yes, I I I I do remember that that Tesai police had sent a letter or something back, I think, but I never saw it personally. You never saw it? All right. Moving to the next bullet point. UCO
01:25:02 Moving to the next bullet point. UCO ring was able at an early stage to provide potential positive investigative lead into a security compromise. G8 reporting of the planning by the descent network included targeting travel plans,
01:25:14 network included targeting travel plans, convergence center venues, leading activists and their mobile numbers, tactics, targets, and true intentions. Is that does that summarize your general
01:25:25 Is that does that summarize your general uh reporting on the descent network during the second half of your deployment? Yes. And then this at the last bullet point says, "The reaction of activists to the police shooting in
01:25:39 of activists to the police shooting in Stockwell following the London suicide bombings has been and will continue to be closely monitored uh by UCO uh ring.
01:25:50 be closely monitored uh by UCO uh ring. Could you just help us with uh with that? What that summary of your reporting, the reaction of the activists?" Well, I I
01:26:02 activists?" Well, I I I remember I remember being sort of asked or briefed just to keep an eye out for any organizing that may be going on as a result of of of the tragic, you
01:26:14 as a result of of of the tragic, you know, uh actions at Stockwell and to keep an eye on it um just to sort of inform the policing response. I can remember in particular
01:26:27 the fact that there were going to be some
01:26:30 some is this later the fact that there were going to be some sort of memorials or a meeting um on the sixth month anniversary or year I might be conflating this with something else but it was just there was there was a lot of
01:26:41 it was just there was there was a lot of sensitivity around it and wanted to make sure that the policing response was you know appropriate and was respectful and wasn't sort of over the top if that makes sense. Those
01:26:55 are your words. Be respectful. Ensure that the policing wasn't over the top. But were they the words of the managers that were briefing you of what they were interested in, what they wanted? How can
01:27:07 interested in, what they wanted? How can you remember? And of course, I'm asking you about something that was asked many years ago, but could you help us with the way this was communicated to you? What what did they say or and who and
01:27:19 What what did they say or and who and who said it about keeping an eye on it? It was no more than a watching brief. It was you know if anything comes across you know sort of if you come
01:27:30 across you know sort of if you come across any activity or whatever that's likely to be um you know connected with this we just want to make sure that it's you know done appropriately. Um I
01:27:43 those words watching grief could could they have been the words used or or difficult to possibly it may assist if we turn over the page please
01:27:54 we turn over the page please if we um
01:27:57 if we um I wonder if we can expand the third paragraph.
01:28:04 Thank you.
01:28:08 UCO Ringra's position within the two organizations will afford an opportunity to gauge and assess any attempt to subvert or hijack the nent campaign for
01:28:22 subvert or hijack the nent campaign for justice for Gene Charles Jean Charles dezzes the Brazilian man shot dead at Stockwell on the 22nd of July 2005. I'm going to ask if we can just expand out because it refers to two organizations
01:28:33 because it refers to two organizations just so that we're clear what's referred to here.
01:28:36 to here. We can just zoom out again. And so in relation to the two organizations that are referred to here,
01:28:48 organizations that are referred to here, we can see at the top there's a reference to globalized resistance and also descent. Is that was that the two organizations
01:28:59 Is that was that the two organizations that are being referred to here? Could you just assist us with that? So it says you you see Ringraith's position within the two organizations. Do do you know what those two organizations were
01:29:10 what those two organizations were looking at that please? I I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean clearly descent GR a name there but I didn't have access into GR at that stage at all.
01:29:18 at all. All right. Um I wonder if we can go back and just zoom in again on that third paragraph please. Thank you. So uh Ringray's position within two
01:29:29 So uh Ringray's position within two organizations will afford an opportunity to gauge and assess any attempt to subvert or hijack the nent campaign for justice for Jean Charles dezzes. So the
01:29:42 justice for Jean Charles dezzes. So the do you recall that as one of your briefs to uh gauge and assess attempts to subvert or to hijack justice for Jean Camp? No, not at all.
01:29:55 justice for Jean Camp? No, not at all. No,
01:30:00 I think any, you know, any the likelihood of any attempt to subvert or hijack those campaigns is highly unlikely.
01:30:13 In this same document, I wonder if we can go to page 17, please.
01:30:26 So on page 17, it's the last paragraph we have another mention of descent. While Descent's future revolves, UCO ring's access to the activist and
01:30:39 ring's access to the activist and extreme left-wing scene also ensures coverage on a number of associated groups and issues including currently the ongoing reaction to the recent
01:30:50 the ongoing reaction to the recent terrorist attacks and more particularly for the NBS the accidental shooting of Jean Charles Domineszes. So in terms of again this description here
01:31:01 again this description here whilst defense's future evolving your uh access ensuring coverage of a number of associated groups including the ongoing
01:31:12 associated groups including the ongoing reaction
01:31:14 reaction is is that an accurate description? No it's not.
01:31:22 What what extent of your time and effort w was spent during your deployment uh on anything connected to uh the shooting of
01:31:34 anything connected to uh the shooting of Jean Charles Dimenezes? No. None whatsoever. I I I'd be surprised if I
01:31:41 I ever put a report in on it, quite frankly. You may you may know different. I I have a vague memory of perhaps putting in something when I saw
01:31:55 perhaps putting in something when I saw reference to a vigil um which was due to take place outside of the tube station perhaps on the anniversary of Mr. Manz's death. I I I wonder if we can pause
01:32:06 death. I I I wonder if we can pause there because staying on that topic, I wonder if we can take this document down please and move to it's um MPS64789.
01:32:17 So this is your tab C440 which is in volume 8. So this is again we're familiar with the the format of this. This is the raw reporting. So this
01:32:30 this. This is the raw reporting. So this isn't one of the process reports. Yeah, we can see a number of reports here, but it's the first one and if we can just focus on that, please.
01:32:41 focus on that, please. So, uh, Ring, obviously a reference to Ring R, your Mhm.
01:32:46 Mhm. undercover identity intelligence six-month commemoration of the death of Jean Charles dezzes. activists will mark this uh the sixth month anniversary of
01:32:57 this uh the sixth month anniversary of the death of Jean Charles de Mennez with a short commemoration service at Stockwell Tube Station at 1 p.m. on Sunday the 22nd of January. Flowers will be laid at the scene and speech is
01:33:09 be laid at the scene and speech is given.
01:33:09 given. The event has been co-organized by the Justice for Jeong campaign. uh the group maintain a website uh that can be uh found and then we can see the justice.com
01:33:22 justice.com uh website
01:33:31 in was this reflective of the request that you had received to keep a watching brief
01:33:39 brief this report is is that the reason that you submitted this report. Yes. But al also also it's you know I I have personal
01:33:51 also it's you know I I have personal experience or of reporting you know of somebody dialing 999 once for a vigil that was going on not at this but a a uh outside a police
01:34:03 not at this but a a uh outside a police station where you get a 999 call coming in saying there are a bunch of people congregating on the pavement outside a police station and they're setting fires. what they actually mean is
01:34:14 fires. what they actually mean is they're lighting lanterns and candles as part of the vigil. So at that what you could do then do occasionally um if you knew that was going to be happening on a basis you could get a marker put on the
01:34:26 basis you could get a marker put on the police system so that it as people would die you know if you if you're a 999 operator you would get a a marker come up saying look this this is probably a
01:34:37 up saying look this this is probably a candle light vigil that we know is going on just so that you didn't send three or four police cars down there with blue lights and two tones going when in fact it's some people trying to light a candle in a damar
01:34:49 candle in a damar in relation to what is set out in this report. Did did were you there? No.
01:35:04 Was this information in this report all from the justicefjon.com uh website? I I don't know. I don't remember
01:35:16 I I don't know. I don't remember if not from there. Where else would you have obtained this information from? It could have been just up on Indie Media. I might It might have been a footnote in another organizing email.
01:35:28 footnote in another organizing email. Sometimes people would put like as little bulletin board or just like a news group about things that were going on. I'd imagine it was from something like that.
01:35:40 If someone were to make an observation along these lines, I want your reaction to the the fairness of of such an observation that um police shot and
01:35:53 observation that um police shot and killed Jean Charles Dezes and at the sixmonth anniversary of the death um there's a report um about that commemoration service in an undercover
01:36:06 commemoration service in an undercover of police officers report being in appropriate. Can you see some justification in that criticism? I I I think that it, you know, there was
01:36:19 I I I think that it, you know, there was there was certainly a request for information about these things coming down from the desk, but you know, I don't we think we were I never any suggestion that you'd look to infiltrate
01:36:31 suggestion that you'd look to infiltrate a a group like this. That was never ever on the cards. And in fact, I felt that the request for information was much more light touch, watching breathe. We
01:36:42 more light touch, watching breathe. We don't want to go, we don't want anything to be heavy-handed or disrespectful or um any policing response to something going on on the street, a commemoration, a memorial. There was a huge amount of
01:36:55 a memorial. There was a huge amount of sensitivity about what had happened in the Met generally.
01:37:01 Was was that a as a result of the uh undercover policing around the Steven uh Lawrence inquiry? Did that
01:37:14 Lawrence inquiry? Did that I I don't know. I'm not sure what was in their minds. Was that was that ever mentioned to you? The policing in relation to Steven Lawrence inquiry in the context of this or this or anything?
01:37:26 or this or anything? Um I don't think so. I mean it was a it was always a sort of subtext running through uh people's minds but no I don't recall that
01:37:38 recall that I like us to take this document down you please move to another of your intelligence reports is MPS68851
01:37:47 please. So this is in your tab for C420 which is in volume 8.
01:38:18 I wonder if we could go to page four of this document. So this is again your raw reporting which contains a number of individual items
01:38:33 and we've got this report um at the end on page four. So intelligence Cambridge action network continue to plan attack on Metropolitan Police website.
01:38:44 website. Uh Privacy is an autonomous activist centrally involved with the descent network. He is based mainly in Cambridge where he holds a professorship in Cambridge. He is one of the key activists in a group called the
01:38:55 activists in a group called the Cambridge Action Network. Uh activists in that group continue to plan an attack on the Metropolitan Police's website. This hijacking of the site would apparently involve seizing control of
01:39:07 apparently involve seizing control of the various web pages and replacing text and images on the site's front page and other pages that can be reached from links that are already in existence. The nature of the attack is believed to be a
01:39:18 nature of the attack is believed to be a cross-sight scripting or XSS attack. The intention will be to post a raft of material that will form part of an attempt to further undermine the position of the commissioner and will
01:39:29 position of the commissioner and will include text and images with regard to the shooting of Jean Charles Dezes. And just pausing there, could you just assist us with where you obtained this
01:39:40 assist us with where you obtained this this intelligence from? I I don't have a clear memory of it. Um, it would have been with conversation, I would imagine, with the individual named at the top there.
01:39:57 And this the the the
01:40:02 target of uh this action is the uh police's own website. Is that is that right?
01:40:11 right? Yeah, that's right. I I remember that it was Yeah, it was literally the Met Police's outward facing public website. All right.
01:40:21 Could we please take that document down and move to MPS76107?
01:40:32 So this is at your tab C509 which is in volume 9. It's a report or we've put and the acquirer have put a date of the 17th of
01:40:43 acquirer have put a date of the 17th of September
01:40:45 September 2007 on this document. Now
01:40:50 Now we can see the first page if we look at the first page of this. Could you just help us with the format because this is reflective of your reporting in this
01:41:04 is reflective of your reporting in this period. So we were we were looking before at raw reporting the processed reports but we see increasingly references to email addresses, website
01:41:15 references to email addresses, website addresses. Could you just help us with We can see different fonts on this document. Could you help us with what this document is? Is there something that you produced and how did you produce it? quite possibly, but it looks
01:41:27 produce it? quite possibly, but it looks like it's literally information that's flying around and been cut and pasted in and would that be
01:41:38 standard for you to do by this stage? You talked about providing context. Yeah.
01:41:42 Yeah. You would cut and paste from the various parts of the website. You do the research and then you would forward that on to your your managers. Yeah, absolutely. When would this be? Is this 2007? We've dated it 17th of September 2007.
01:41:56 dated it 17th of September 2007. Yeah. I mean, this was literally at the end and it it for context, I was spending,
01:42:02 spending, you know, more time being full-time in meetings um about the winding up of SDS. Really, probably at least two or three days a week were spent in the office um
01:42:15 days a week were spent in the office um as part of that windup process. C could we go please to page 12 of this uh document? So it's quite a lengthy document in terms of reports because of the nature of it here. And so
01:42:29 the nature of it here. And so I wonder if we can show page 13 as well. I'm just going to ask in relation uh to this. So we can see there is Jean Charles de Mennez's public meeting uh Monday 23rd of July London.
01:42:42 Monday 23rd of July London. Uh and then just looking at what's under that it says the war on terror is a lie. And then we've got a date 19th of July 2007 and the time and and then the reference here. Um I wonder if we can
01:42:53 reference here. Um I wonder if we can just just zoom out again just see the documents side by side. So may I just ask um
01:43:03 ask um who the customers were for this type of material. So what we can see here so what who would we can see for example it talks about speakers members of Jean's family uh and the names there but who
01:43:16 family uh and the names there but who was why were you providing this sort of um information uh to your managers but again different from the type of reporting that you were doing earlier
01:43:27 reporting that you were doing earlier on. settling purely for information for the for the desk just so they were aware of the meeting.
01:43:40 To what extent did you discuss the Jean Charles dezzes campaign with your managers? What recollection do you have of that?
01:43:48 of that? I don't think I discussed it with them at all. I don't recall any discussions or conversations about it. As I said, it was a, you know, light touch, watching brief. If anything crosses you, you
01:43:59 brief. If anything crosses you, you know, your desk almost, can you just make sure it's included just so we're aware of what's going on be
01:44:06 be before we have we can take that document down. Thank you. Before we have our midm morning break, I want to ask you about a disc discreet topic and this has been referred to by a number of individuals
01:44:18 referred to by a number of individuals that
01:44:20 that the
01:44:22 the um they experienced for example burglaries happening uh and suspicious burglaries where in fact items of value were not taken but maybe computers um were uh taken and and data was taken. To
01:44:37 were uh taken and and data was taken. To what extent were you ever asked to provide
01:44:42 provide details that would assist say a fake burglary? So, so providing the details of what the layout of a of a a particular location looked like so someone else could then go in and and
01:44:54 someone else could then go in and and say steal a laptop or or a a paper file. Did that feature at all in your deployment? No, it didn't. I would I I was never asked to provide information with
01:45:06 asked to provide information with regards to a burglary or a theft. I I was asked quite specifically details about the globalized office in the um the old Truman Brewery in Brick
01:45:18 the um the old Truman Brewery in Brick Lane and about the security on that office.
01:45:26 And so in relation to maybe help if we just turn up a report if we can go please to MPS4 3182
01:45:39 which is in volume 7 tab C302.
01:46:05 Okay,
01:46:11 sorry. It's um43182.
01:46:30 So you've already described for example you you were asked to take photographs of the globalized resistance office and in this report here in the last
01:46:41 in this report here in the last paragraph there's a reference to details about
01:46:46 about padlock block. Mhm.
01:46:47 Mhm. And again, in terms of that information, um to what extent were you specifically asked to do that?
01:46:59 asked to do that? Um I I I I don't remember specifically. I know that they were interested in the security of the office. All right. And I would imagine I mean you you spoke earlier about potential. I I have no
01:47:11 earlier about potential. I I have no idea whether there was ever a an entry made, but it wouldn't, you know, it only have been a burglary, of course, if that entry was unlawful and that was not the sort of activity. No, that was a serious thing if that was ever on the cards and
01:47:24 thing if that was ever on the cards and would only ever no part of what you were involved in. Not not at all. But I I when I was asked to report on that, I suppose my immediate thought was, well, why would
01:47:35 immediate thought was, well, why would you need to know that? And I can only imagine it would be in connection with something like that. All right. And if we can just again before the break just go to one more document and then and then we'll break for the morning. And the next document is O and it is 429.
01:47:57 Um this is a tab C233 volume 6. So it's 0 429
01:48:05 429 and it's uh if we can go to page four of this document.
01:48:23 So in conversation on Saturday 21st of June, privacy of the stop the war coalition reported that the coalition section of the officers had been burgled in the last three days or so. Uh despite some fairly desirable flat screen
01:48:35 some fairly desirable flat screen displays, the only items taken were all the computer hard drives. Not surprisingly, this has led to the conclusion that the state was responsible for the burglary. John Ree is reportedly furious and doubly so as
01:48:48 is reportedly furious and doubly so as it seems that much of the valuable data such as membership lists and the like was not backed up properly. Uh this will be a significant blow to the effectiveness of the coalition. It
01:48:59 the effectiveness of the coalition. It also raises other questions with regard to security as the office workers for the coalition were recently provided with an encryption package provided by an activist in the United States but failed to install it in time to lessen
01:49:11 failed to install it in time to lessen this incident's impact. Now, yesterday when we were looking at your compromise, one of the documents we looked at was
01:49:23 one of the documents we looked at was potentially suggesting disrupting as a possibility uh globalized resistance and your evidence was that you wouldn't be able to do that or you had no knowledge of
01:49:35 to do that or you had no knowledge of that. But in terms of this incident, the burglary that is reported, um, if it was suggested that or asked whether that was
01:49:47 suggested that or asked whether that was anything to do with an attempt to disrupt, uh, stop the war coalition, what would your response be to that? Could you help us with that? I think I mean I I think that is highly unlikely. I have no knowledge of that at
01:49:59 unlikely. I have no knowledge of that at all. I remember this conversation relatively clearly I with the person whose name we were in in central London doing something. We got chatting. I literally stood on the street over a
01:50:10 literally stood on the street over a coffee and she told me about what had happened.
01:50:14 happened. Was any part of your deployment involved in disrupting uh any of the groups that you spied on uh disrupting their effectiveness?
01:50:28 uh disrupting their effectiveness? No, not at all. No. All right. So, I don't know whether that is now convenient moment for the midm morninging break. Certainly. Uh we'll have the usual 15minute break now.
02:09:10 Yes. Uh HN118. I'm going to ask you about uh Patrick Mccertie. Is that is that a name that you recall? Yes. Um C could you help us with what
02:09:21 Yes. Um C could you help us with what connection you had with Patrick McCertie uh during your deployments? Um yes, I'm met him my first I'm sure we met at a a squatted
02:09:35 my first I'm sure we met at a a squatted space or a convergent space in Glasgow ahead of the Glenn Eagles G8. In fact, I've I've got a recollection of
02:09:46 In fact, I've I've got a recollection of waking up. We slept on a you know you know open space wooden floor where activists were who were attending the meeting were able to to sleep. Um I had um gone to sleep and when I woke up he
02:09:58 um gone to sleep and when I woke up he was literally two feet away from me in his sleeping bag sort of parallel to where I was and we met that morning. In the second half of your deployment, and by that I mean after you left Globalized
02:10:10 by that I mean after you left Globalized Resistance, was Patrick McCertie one of those that you became closest to or or not? Yes.
02:10:20 And in general terms, so a lot of my questions yesterday related to Guy Taylor.
02:10:27 Taylor. How close were you to Patrick McCertie compared to how close you were to to Guy Taylor? Just for a comparison, not not as close, nowhere near.
02:10:39 Is this because in the second part of your deployment you were less uh involved in centrally in the various organizations that you
02:10:51 in the various organizations that you were uh spying upon? Yes, I think that's fair. In the second half of your deployment, would you agree that uh Patrick McCertie there was no one that you were closer
02:11:03 there was no one that you were closer you were closer to than than him during that second phase or that he represented as as close as you got to anyone? Yes, that's probably accurate. Okay.
02:11:17 I'm going to ask you about a document I wonder if we can put up on screen. It's UCPI 39735. which is at tab B 150 which is in volume
02:11:31 which is at tab B 150 which is in volume four
02:11:33 four um s of your bundle. I'm just going to bring this up on screen.
02:11:41 So we can see here um an article part of the undercover research portal. Is is this something that you've seen before?
02:11:50 before? It's not. No.
02:11:56 There is reference um in this section to u it's headed Simon Wellings Mccurie interviews. Um do you remember that
02:12:07 interviews. Um do you remember that Patrick McCertie uh did a PhD uh research project? Does does that something that you recall from your deployment? Yes.
02:12:20 What was your involvement in that PhD? I it I'm have a I've forgotten about it until literally seeing this, but I have a recollection that he interviewed me as
02:12:32 a recollection that he interviewed me as part of that work. Uh would it be right that he interviewed you on more than one occasion for his PhD?
02:12:40 PhD? I don't recall that, but it it's possible. I wouldn't dispute it if he says that's the case.
02:12:48 Can you remember why he uh interviewed you uh for his PhD? I I think his work was
02:12:56 was um from memory he was involved or he's I wouldn't pretend to know the outline of his thesis completely but I know he was interested in the sort of tension that
02:13:08 interested in the sort of tension that he thought existed between mainstream media coverage and sort of independent media coverage around showpiece summit demonstrations and protests.
02:13:19 demonstrations and protests. Were your managers aware that you participated in interviews for Patrick McCert's PhD whilst you were deployed as an undercover officer?
02:13:34 I genuinely can't remember. I I I would have thought it would be something that I would have spoken to them about, but I I can't remember. Did participating in th in those uh interviews um have anything to do with
02:13:49 interviews um have anything to do with um your work as a UCO uh in any way? No, apart from maintaining my cover. Um no, not at all. I'd like to ask you because in this um
02:14:02 I'd like to ask you because in this um online article there's there are a number of references um to what you your interaction with Mr. Kurdie and I just want to ask you some questions about them.
02:14:12 them. You can see that in the second paragraph on the first page and saying that you were redeployed in 2005 into the descent network predominantly anarchist mobilization against the G8
02:14:25 anarchist mobilization against the G8 summits which in 2005 was taking place at Glint Glenn Eagles Scotland. So we can agree that that that is correct. He then said, "When Newsight released the photo of Wellings in March 2011,
02:14:36 photo of Wellings in March 2011, researcher Patrick Mccertie active uh with Descent Media Team uh called the Counter Spin Collective for the 2005 G8 Mobilization realized that he had known
02:14:49 Mobilization realized that he had known uh the undercover corresponding with him into 200
02:14:56 into 200 six."
02:14:57 six." Is that right that you uh corresponded with him into 2006 as a time period? Is that is that right? I would have thought we were still um
02:15:08 I would have thought we were still um communicating in 2006. Yes, I Patrick quite well. So yeah. So he says that further Wellings participated in McCert's PhD research project in which he was twice interviewed principally on
02:15:20 he was twice interviewed principally on his assumed activist persona's attitude to the media but also about his past activities whilst he was with globalized uh resistance. Is is that right that you
02:15:35 uh resistance. Is is that right that you were discussing um the media in relation to disscent and previously in relation to globalized resistance? Yes, I think so.
02:15:46 Yes, I think so. Did you have any concerns at the time um communicating uh with uh Mr. Kurdi about uh your experience in globalized resistance and
02:15:59 experience in globalized resistance and descent knowing that he was producing a PhD.
02:16:04 PhD. No, not particularly that I recall.
02:16:09 Wonder if we can turn over the page, please. Page two, there's a heading on page two. Mccertie and Wellings contact 2004 to 2006. Can you see it? says
02:16:22 2004 to 2006. Can you see it? says McCertie was in contact. It's in the middle of the page. I wonder if we can blow up the middle of the page, please. So, if we expand the middle section, it says McCertie was in contact with
02:16:33 says McCertie was in contact with Wellings between 2004 and 2006, though laterally only through email correspondence. So, again, this is is that a fair reflection of the contact
02:16:46 that a fair reflection of the contact between the two of you? No, I think we spent quite a lot of time in each other's company physically. So we that's not strictly accurate I don't think.
02:16:56 think. And what was the nature of that contact? It was more being physically in his presence as opposed to just by emails. No, in his presence too on on occasion.
02:17:07 No, in his presence too on on occasion. We we kept in touch quite frequently. I remember we got involved with a um we did some work in Edinburgh. I say work I don't over it. We we got involved
02:17:20 work I don't over it. We we got involved in distributing some sort of uh camp kitchen vegan food around various convergent spaces and uh places where people meeting up before the actual protest got going properly with a camp
02:17:33 protest got going properly with a camp kitchen that was attached to a mosque up there. And then we did something around that I believe when we got back to South London. But we I you know I knew
02:17:44 London. But we I you know I knew wasn't anywhere near as close to Patrick as I had been to leading people in globalize but we saw each other quite a lot. Um he was um looking to
02:17:57 um looking to make contacts with various groups about communication in the media which we did. What was the poling purpose of your contact with Mr. McCertie? Was it more
02:18:09 contact with Mr. McCertie? Was it more for your cover or in terms of obtaining any intelligence? It it was more for my cover. Um there was the occasional bit that came out from an intelligence perspective as I recall, but it it was mainly for cover
02:18:23 recall, but it it was mainly for cover because in would you agree with this that in fact the the information flow was rather than from him to you was was you to him because he was for example interviewing you for the PhD.
02:18:35 interviewing you for the PhD. Um yeah. Yes. with regard to that specific thing. All right. And just specific in terms of timing, it says that he first encountered uh you at the European Social Forum in London uh between the
02:18:47 Social Forum in London uh between the 15th and 17th of November 2004. So this is
02:18:52 is right after the time that you were expelled from globalized resistance. Yes.
02:18:57 Yes. Yes. Um, Mccertie was studying for his PhD at the London School of Economics and previously been involved in the 2002 counter GH mobilization in Canada. So, was he the person that you sort of took
02:19:11 was he the person that you sort of took hold of after you left Globalized Resistance in relation to making your move into the descent network and moving away from Globalized Resistance? Was he
02:19:22 away from Globalized Resistance? Was he someone that you you turned to as a new target? I um yes I wouldn't say I wouldn't describe the per you know solely in the purpose of a target but
02:19:34 solely in the purpose of a target but certainly was someone who was when I met him and we you know we got to know each other a little bit he was certainly plugged into so many layers and different groups of activity that were going to be centrally involved in the
02:19:46 going to be centrally involved in the effort to um protest the G8 that he was an obvious person to you know keep in touch with. Now if we could turn over the page please on page three. Um so he
02:19:57 the page please on page three. Um so he says according to Mccertie Wellings told him his job was to install fiber optic cables work which took him across the world. Is that is that the
02:20:08 world. Is that is that the just so that we have an understanding we have a perspective here from Mr. McCertie in relation to your legend. But is is that the legend that you continued
02:20:19 is is that the legend that you continued with in this the latter part of your deployment? Yes.
02:20:23 Yes. All right. Now, here it says, "At the time of the interviews in 2005, he claimed and then quoting from the interviews, I've been involved in political activism on and off now for about 10 years. Current wave of
02:20:35 about 10 years. Current wave of involvement started just after Genoa in 2001. Genua was an amazing seinal moment in the movement and I missed it. I spent the whole weekend glued to my mate's laptop on indie media with a really slow
02:20:47 laptop on indie media with a really slow shaky dialup connection that kept dropping out and watching it on some of the mainstream news reports. I kept thinking I should have gone but that kind of piqued my interest again. I started going to some stuff meetings and
02:20:59 started going to some stuff meetings and bits and bobs. So this does does that um jog your memory in relation to the types of things that you were saying to Mr. Mccertie?
02:21:08 Mccertie? Yes. Would it be fair to say that as is an insight into how you were presenting during your deployment in terms of your persona?
02:21:18 persona? Yes, probably. All right. Now, if we just drop down to a couple of paragraphs says, "Having become active again, he claimed to have been part of an affinity group. We're kind of relatively tight little, I
02:21:29 kind of relatively tight little, I suppose you would call us an affinity group. We do sort of fairly direct action type stuff mixed with, you know, just building and helping out where we can on other big mobilizations and
02:21:40 can on other big mobilizations and stuff. And again, is that the way in which you presented that you were involved in those doing quote fairly direct action type stuff to to Patrick? Yes.
02:21:50 Yes. Yes.
02:21:51 Yes. But were you did you have any involvement um in fairly direct action type stuff? whatever in my deployment or in Yes.
02:22:02 in Yes. Um I mean I suppose it's how you interpret direct action but yes every now and again I mean it this is post Glenn Eagle's G8 or Yes.
02:22:14 or Yes. Well at at any Could you give us an example of because here you are presenting uh to McCertie at the time well you say you're someone who we do sort of fairly direct action type of
02:22:26 sort of fairly direct action type of stuff. Okay. And firstly in terms of what you yourself did, what what did you do during your deployment yourself that could be classified as
02:22:38 yourself that could be classified as direct action? Well, certainly in in uh take the Glenn Eagles G8 first. I was involved in, you know, a number of the sort of attempts to go out and uh do the blockades. Um
02:22:51 to go out and uh do the blockades. Um going out certainly from the Sterling camp um for the main day of action to take part in the attempt to sort of well we thought it was going to be to break out of the camp but we just walked out
02:23:02 out of the camp but we just walked out the main door or the main gate. If in if in giving examples I'm going to ask if you could restrict yourself to England in England during your deployment from the day you started to the end as far as
02:23:14 the day you started to the end as far as you were concerned yourself what is the what is the the high point of any direct action that you were personally involved in
02:23:23 in in England. Yes. Yes.
02:23:24 Yes. Yes. Um probably no more than sitdown protests or block you know bridge blocks that type of stuff. a sitdown protest.
02:23:35 a sitdown protest. Would you agree that sitdown protests can be limited in in time that it can can just be for 30 seconds or 60 seconds
02:23:46 can just be for 30 seconds or 60 seconds or so? It can be a a brief it can be. Yes. And is it um also the case that and did you experience this when you were involved in sitdowns that it can also be done um with notifying
02:23:59 it can also be done um with notifying the the police at the time say look we're going to do a sit down here we're going to be there for a minute or two and then then we're going to move on. Is that is that your experience? I I suppose you could I've never
02:24:11 I I suppose you could I've never experienced one where the aim was to take it for one or two minutes but yes it could be. when um we heard evidence uh last uh week from for example Guy Taylor, it was
02:24:24 week from for example Guy Taylor, it was made clear that um globalized resistance um was not involved in any violent direct action. Would you agree with that in terms of
02:24:35 Would you agree with that in terms of the entirety in fact of your deployment that anything direct action related firstly it would not come under the category of violent direct action in England?
02:24:46 in England? Yes.
02:24:47 Yes. Yes.
02:24:47 Yes. And in terms of uh other direct action that the high point is is sitdown protests.
02:24:57 protests. Yes, probably. Um yeah I Yes. All right. I wonder if we can just move further just in this art um this article. Just a few other parts of it I
02:25:08 article. Just a few other parts of it I want to ask you about. Please if we turn to page five.
02:25:17 Now I have been asking you about how you became involved in the descent network but this is a topic that you at the time were also discussing with uh Patrick
02:25:28 were also discussing with uh Patrick Mccertie. Is is that right? Because we can see it says here in the article says taking part in descent on being asked on how he got involved in the descent network. Wellings said is that right
02:25:39 network. Wellings said is that right that Mr. Mccertie was asking you about that sort of thing at this time. Yes, I think so. Okay. And this our understanding is this is quote from what you've said to him.
02:25:51 is quote from what you've said to him. Everybody kind of knew the uh G8 was coming here and stuff and I kind of really completely cut my ties and links with the other groups. Having been involved on this, I don't know how you
02:26:04 involved on this, I don't know how you would call it this sort of side of the movement before. I was just very keen to get back involved. I really didn't do anything much more sophisticated than speak to a couple of people, have a look round. It was obvious that descent was
02:26:16 round. It was obvious that descent was very energetic and it was quite it seemed quite sorted and started quite early. So I was quite keen to get involved in that. So that's how really.
02:26:27 involved in that. So that's how really. So when it says there I really didn't do anything much more sophisticated than to speak to a couple of people and have a look around. In fact, is that accurate in terms of what you actually did
02:26:38 what you actually did about how I got involved? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And then he says, "But I signed up to a few of the e-lists." Now, this again, is that true what you you're
02:26:49 again, is that true what you you're obviously presenting to Mr. Mccertie at the time in your um undercover persona as Simon Wellings, but is what you're describing here accurate in the sense that you're telling him at the time that
02:27:00 that you're telling him at the time that you signed up to a few of the e-lists? I would have signed up to the list. Yes. Okay. And spoke to some people. And you know, the guys and girls in our group are happy with the politics and the way it's organized. We are certainly not
02:27:11 it's organized. We are certainly not interested sort of hierarchical leadership. And again, is this you accurately describing the people that you're interacting with with the activists you're interacting with as
02:27:22 activists you're interacting with as opposed to putting on or giving a story? Yes, I think so. Um I haven't got a particular beef with that. You know, it's just not for us. Uh and that's how really I've been along to
02:27:35 and that's how really I've been along to some of the meetings, some of the London meetings uh beyond ESF trapze. you just start going to some of the gatherings and you get a little bit more involved. Um, I've also been able to help move
02:27:46 Um, I've also been able to help move stuff about. And again, is that in fact an accurate description of what you were doing at the time that you were getting your words a little bit
02:27:58 were getting your words a little bit more involved and helping move stuff about. Is that in fact accurate description of the the level of your involvement at the time? Yeah, at the beginning absolutely.
02:28:10 Yeah, at the beginning absolutely. Okay, wonder if we can turn over the page um in the report to page six and it's in fact just below halfway down um on policing of protests and associated media attention.
02:28:23 Policing of protests is a topic Welling speaks to on multiple occasions in his interview interviews with Mr. McCertie. Is that was that is that correct?
02:28:34 Is that was that is that correct? Yes, probably. Why uh were you as an undercover SDS uh officer
02:28:42 officer uh speaking to Mr. McCertie uh about the policing of of protests? I think it's just naturally a thing that would come up in conversation. It was something that he was equally equally
02:28:53 something that he was equally equally interested in himself.
02:28:58 The these conversations were recorded. I don't remember. Did he not say, "Well, I'm going to Did he explain he was doing a PhD?" You knew he was doing a PhD and these interviews
02:29:09 he was doing a PhD and these interviews were for his PhD. Yeah, I do. I think he I think he had a Yeah, I think he did. He had a compact disc player or something like that. I remember.
02:29:18 remember. So, he has a compact disc player. He did he say that you would be uh quoted in his PhD or on the whole purpose of
02:29:29 his PhD or on the whole purpose of interviewing you was so he could use this material in in the PhD did that topic arise I I don't remember but yeah quite possibly
02:29:40 looking back on it do do you not consider um it unusual that an SDS undercover officer was participating in
02:29:51 undercover officer was participating in interviews giving information to an activist uh and particularly on the topic of policing of protests.
02:30:01 protests. I suppose it is quite unusual. I don't think I was giving him information but um we were certainly certainly seems that the tact you know the police tactics had come up in the course of that conversation. I don't dispute that.
02:30:13 that conversation. I don't dispute that. So policing of protests is a topic Welling speaks to on multiple occasions in his interviews with Mccertie in relation to various protests around the G8 summit in the UK. He notes and this
02:30:24 G8 summit in the UK. He notes and this appears to be a quote from you. I also think that there is a lot of tactics being used by the state to intimidate people. You get the use of these police
02:30:36 people. You get the use of these police camera teams, the forward intelligence team everywhere you go. Now, is that
02:30:45 is that accurate? Do you remember saying words to that effect? Would you agree that that is a quote from Mr. McCert's interview of you for his PhD?
02:30:56 interview of you for his PhD? I I don't remember it at all, but but quite possibly. Now, the words there in your undercover role, are they reflecting your
02:31:11 role, are they reflecting your personal
02:31:12 personal um views? Are they reflecting uh the views of the persona of Simon Wellings or or a cross between the two? Can you just help us
02:31:23 Can you just help us with that? So, in terms of this view, I also think this are your words. I also think that there's a lot of tactics being used by the state to intimidate people. You get the use of these police camera teams, the forward intelligence
02:31:35 camera teams, the forward intelligence team everywhere you go. Was that something that you were putting on a a a fake persona of Simon Wellings or this is the sort of thing an activist would say or was it in fact your genuine
02:31:46 say or was it in fact your genuine No, it was much more something that I thought Wellings would would would feel and say.
02:32:06 It goes on. He particularly comments at the overpleasing for a protest called at a meeting of G8 environmental and development ministers on the 17th of March 2005 in Darbashier and which had
02:32:20 March 2005 in Darbashier and which had seen a low turnout of demonstrators. And then it appears again a quote from you. I went to Derby for the G8 environment ministers meeting and I swear I had never seen anything like it. I don't
02:32:32 never seen anything like it. I don't think anybody, you know, expected it to be a huge and I wonder if we can go over the page demonstration. There was a critical mass called at the railway station. I was in a car looking
02:32:43 station. I was in a car looking at like a dreadful activist arriving in a four- seat car on my own. Anyway, I parked up, walked around to the railway station, and there was just row after row of police vans full of guys in full
02:32:56 row of police vans full of guys in full riot gear at 9:00 in the morning, camera teams on all the platforms at the railway station, videoing everybody who got off the train. It was just extraordinary. The critical mass was
02:33:07 extraordinary. The critical mass was about 15 people on bikes, a mly collection as you hope for and expect on bikes, scooters, you know, micro pushing along scooters. And they had behind them like a huge police four-wheel drive,
02:33:19 like a huge police four-wheel drive, like a police carrier with doors open, people pecking away on laptops. You know, there was like two huge vans of riot cops following us around, two or three motorcycles and about 20 guys
02:33:31 three motorcycles and about 20 guys running behind it in yellow jackets. Honestly, I've seen nothing like it in my life. Now before just coming to the end of that is this all accurate what you're describing of the event in uh the
02:33:43 you're describing of the event in uh the uh in Derby the for the G8 environment minister's meeting so this is part of the interview that Mr. that mccertie conducts of view. But all this description of the event, is that
02:33:54 description of the event, is that physically correct? What happened? It's it's pretty accurate. Yeah. I mean, there was a I remember there being a a huge policing response for this in Derby.
02:34:02 Derby. I'm going to just read that last paragraph and then I'm going to turn to a report that you submitted to your SDS managers about that same event. Just so you can see, I had my own digital camera and I was snapping the cops and I got
02:34:15 and I was snapping the cops and I got stopped and turned over and searched and everything. I I don't know if you read about it, but the home secretary signed banning orders the night before. So, they made it basically illegal. An amazing thing really. They made it
02:34:26 amazing thing really. They made it unlawful to demonstrate in the confines of the whole derby apart from one bit in the market square. And so, that was the only place. And I got told very direct he had signed it from 12:00 noon. I got
02:34:38 he had signed it from 12:00 noon. I got told I got dragged into an alley by these two cops. Okay. Now I wonder if we can just take this document down for the time being and move to MPS41290
02:34:49 please. So what you were just describing or to Mr. McCertie in the interview for his PhD was the G8 environmental and
02:35:01 PhD was the G8 environmental and development ministers meeting on the 17th of March 2005. And if we look at this uh document uh here on screen,
02:35:17 can you see intelligence descent activists in Derby on March 17th? So this is 2005. So this is the intelligence report or the the raw intelligence that you provide to your
02:35:29 intelligence that you provide to your managers, but it's about the same event that you were describing to Mr. Mccertie in this excerpt from your interview. So if we go through it, several key descent activists were present in Derby last
02:35:40 activists were present in Derby last Thursday, March the 17th, for the small demonstration that marked the visit of the G8 environment and development ministers. Paul, surname unknown. Maybe Chatterton was present from Leeds along
02:35:51 Chatterton was present from Leeds along with Privacy, surname unknown from the Leeds Social Center and we can see other names mentioned there from Nottingham descent where there along with privacy from Sheffield. All were somewhat amazed
02:36:04 from Sheffield. All were somewhat amazed at the overwhelming police presence. Uh there were reportedly between 1,600 and 2,000 police officers on duty to police a protest by some 150 activists. The
02:36:15 a protest by some 150 activists. The home secretary, Charles Clark, had also signed banning orders, making it unlawful to protest outside of a 100 meter square box in the city's marketplace. Many considering the police response to be a sign of things to come,
02:36:27 response to be a sign of things to come, the presence of forward intelligence teams from Darbasher, London, Mur Mercyside, and Cheshure uh was also noted. And and so in relation to
02:36:40 noted. And and so in relation to um your what you told Mr. Mccertie, in fact, you provided Mr. McCertie with more more details in relation to the event than than you provided with to
02:36:51 event than than you provided with to your um SDS managers. Would you agree with that? Um yeah, I suppose so. I mean, you know, my SDS managers would would not need to know necessarily the level of, you know,
02:37:03 know necessarily the level of, you know, who was deployed where and what because if they needed to know that, they could find it out.
02:37:16 And was one of the reasons that you were uh content essentially to tell Mr. McCertie what you were telling your managers because this information was
02:37:27 managers because this information was not particularly um difficult to get. It wasn't particularly sensitive. It was it was well-known information. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yes, I would. for it. I wonder if
02:37:38 Yes. Yes, I would. for it. I wonder if we could turn back to the uh article that we were looking at. It was um UCPI 39735.
02:37:46 39735. Wonder if we can turn uh further on in that document to page eight, please.
02:38:05 So at the top I wonder if you can focus please uh on the enlarge the top paragraph.
02:38:12 So it's five lines down if you can just begin mid-sentence. So can you see it says and this is again referring to what you said. I mean, I'm involved in disscent organizing such that it is and
02:38:24 disscent organizing such that it is and we're building I've not been to any meetings where anybody is talking about rioting. It's not on people's radar, is it? How counterproductive is that for us to go up there and fulfill all their
02:38:35 to go up there and fulfill all their doom and gloom expectations? It's the very very worst thing that could happen. I'm not saying there will not be trouble, but I've I've been on lots and lots of protests and actions and things
02:38:46 lots of protests and actions and things and I've never seen an activist start a confrontation But I've seen the police start it many times. Now just pausing there
02:38:57 times. Now just pausing there is is that you
02:39:03 you being Simon Wellings saying things that you would expect an activist to say or or is that in fact accurate? Was that accurate what you
02:39:15 accurate? Was that accurate what you were saying to Mr. Mccertie? No, it's it's me presenting myself as Wellings.
02:39:22 A and in terms of the truth of that, I've been on lots and lots of protests and actions and I've never seen an activist start a confrontation, but I've seen the police start it many times. Are you saying that that is not accurate?
02:39:34 saying that that is not accurate? Yeah. Yes, I am. All right. I mean that with my hand on my heart, you know, I really have. They arrive, they are pumped up. They are testosterone fueled. They are not the sharpest pencils in the box.
02:39:46 sharpest pencils in the box. They don't realize when something is good humored or tongue and cheek or you know and I mean I've seen some of these pro- capitalist demonstrations and again the same question is this you acting or
02:39:58 the same question is this you acting or is there any truth in what you've set out to Mr. Mccertie it it's me acting
02:40:06 Were you ever concerned Mr. Mccertie's doing a PhD and you're pretending to be someone else's interview? Was that was that ever
02:40:13 that ever No, I I I
02:40:17 No, I I I literally in the last couple of minutes when we've been discussing it, I can remember it a bit better. Um, yeah, I I I think this is probably the third time he tried to get hold of me to do it. I um I'd certainly put him off a couple of times and I think it got to the stage
02:40:29 times and I think it got to the stage where it was just, you know, not tenable to keep doing that. Um, but yeah, it did it did it did absolutely cross my radar, I think, as well. I think I probably downplayed my role in globalize a bit
02:40:42 downplayed my role in globalize a bit because I didn't want him sort of fact-checking me back to globalize if that makes sense. But from these interviews, would you say that that gives us um a good impression of how you presented at the time to
02:40:53 of how you presented at the time to various activists that you came in contact with? All right. Could we please turn to page uh 10 um in this document before um leaving it? We can see this is right at the end. You can see the heading just below halfway
02:41:06 can see the heading just below halfway 2006 2011 Mccardium Wellings email correspondence. So here it says much of the email correspondence between Mccertie and Wellings is currently unavailable. However, two 2006 emails
02:41:18 unavailable. However, two 2006 emails that Mccertie retained are of interest. It says both contain references to McCert's family pending birth of a child. On this angle, Welling states that he accessed McCert's Flickr page to
02:41:30 that he accessed McCert's Flickr page to look at images of his family. Now, in relation to that, does that mean anything to you that the reference to Flickr?
02:41:41 reference to Flickr? Yeah, I mean, Flickr is a a repository for digital photographs up on on the internet.
02:41:48 internet. A a and in in terms of and it's it's flagged up in this in this article the the topic of collateral intrusion. If someone were to say, well, it's not
02:42:01 someone were to say, well, it's not necessary, appropriate, or proportionate for you to be accessing uh uh personal family photographs um of an activist on on a Flickr page.
02:42:14 um of an activist on on a Flickr page. Would looking back on that, would you agree with that? Yes. Yes, I would. Now, there's a there's a reference to the email said the first email stated that Wellings intends to travel uh to counter G8 camp in Germany, Camp Insky.
02:42:28 counter G8 camp in Germany, Camp Insky. And then there's a quote that's setting up a full year early to oppose next summer's summit. Wellings remarked that quote, I'm hoping that it'll have some of the same vibe that Sterling did, uh
02:42:40 of the same vibe that Sterling did, uh but with maybe better showers. And then in a second email sees Welling invite Mccertie to attend the Sack Parliament action stating that there's a bit of a buzz in the air about it. And so you are
02:42:53 buzz in the air about it. And so you are inviting the Mr. Mccertie to attend um a demonstration sack parliament.
02:43:04 demonstration sack parliament. Do you remember that? I'm asking you about emails sent some time ago. I I don't remember it, but it's entirely possible. Yeah. Um, why why would you be inviting him to attend an action?
02:43:16 attend an action? I I I think it would probably just be to to maintain that contact between us. I don't think it was um it was anything more than that really. I probably hadn't seen him for a while. It appears to be a quote from that last
02:43:28 It appears to be a quote from that last email to see if that jogs your memory. Sure. You know, but there's going to be a potentially interesting action on Monday from lunchtime onwards. The SAC Parliament action. slight shades of beef
02:43:40 Parliament action. slight shades of beef for vendetta and I don't know too much about it but apparently there's a bit of a buzz in the air and considerable interest from the media. I've organized next Monday around it. I'm going to go along. Maybe you'd be interested too.
02:43:53 along. Maybe you'd be interested too. Does that ring a bell in terms of the sort of email that it's entirely possible? I don't I don't have no memory of that at all but yes. Okay.
02:44:04 Okay. All right. Okay. Okay, I'm going to ask you just about one more paragraph in this document, then we'll take it down. It's the next page. It's just the top paragraph. So, it's following on from that email referring to the Sack
02:44:16 that email referring to the Sack Parliament event, saying it was a direct action with the intention to surround parliament and cause parliamentary activities to cease. Now, do you
02:44:27 activities to cease. Now, do you remember this event? Yeah, I've got a vague memory of it, I think.
02:44:31 think. Okay. It says it was also the first major demonstration to use images of the mask va vendetta later used by the anonymous hacking collective. Around 40 people were arrested after being surrounded by police and one
02:44:42 surrounded by police and one photographer was seriously injured. It is not known if Wellings attended the demonstration as suggested. However, it is known that the organizing group was targeted by one of Wellings's colleagues
02:44:54 targeted by one of Wellings's colleagues in the special demonstration squad, Rob Harrison, uh and who was present on that day. So um this is HN18. Did did you have um any interaction with
02:45:06 Did did you have um any interaction with HN18 in your persona as Simon Wellings? Did did you uh see him on any actions either this one in particular sack parliament or or generally and you've
02:45:18 parliament or or generally and you've got your
02:45:19 got your Yeah. Uh yes I did. Not not in England. Okay. or or indeed Wales.
02:45:30 All right. I'm going to wonder if we can um take that document down. Um something that you referred to in those interviews with Mr. McCertie
02:45:41 in those interviews with Mr. McCertie are the were the fit teams. I just want to ask you a few questions about the forward intelligence teams. M what interaction did you have with the
02:45:55 what interaction did you have with the fit teams outside of your persona as Simon Wellings? Did was there any contact between you and and and the and the fit teams? No, not none at all. Your managers would your managers as to
02:46:08 Your managers would your managers as to your knowledge have had any uh meetings with or communication with the fit teams?
02:46:15 teams? I I I don't not directly. I'd be very surprised if that was direct contact with people on the on the actual fit teams. I think it's entirely possible that they would have had contact with
02:46:26 that they would have had contact with the fit team's management in public order branch. So in terms of of course the the fit teams uh taking photographs following
02:46:37 teams uh taking photographs following act certain activists around and obviously that would not be uh productive from a police perspective if you were someone that was photographed
02:46:49 you were someone that was photographed and p pursued. But as far as you were aware, was there anything done to prevent that happening to you or were you told about that or something simply
02:47:00 you told about that or something simply just not in your knowledge? Not that I'm aware of. I was followed around by um a a fit team on a couple of occasions. Um I'm fairly confident they had no idea who I really was.
02:47:13 had no idea who I really was. On those occasions that you were followed by the fit team, I can ask you about those. Was Emily Apple present at any of those times that you were followed around by fit teams?
02:47:25 were followed around by fit teams? No.
02:47:27 No. Although I saw her being followed by fit teams on a number of occasions when I was out doing other things because there would be more than one fit team on a demonstration or or or if there was a
02:47:39 demonstration or or or if there was a big protest or something going on in central London. Sometimes there appeared to be half a dozen of them.
02:47:47 In relation to the times that you saw Emily Apple being pursued by fit teams, could you just help us with with those occasions, please? How how many
02:47:59 please? How how many times did you yourself see this happen?
02:48:07 I I can certainly recall two occasions. It might have been two or three.
02:48:14 and and those two occasions. C, could you provide us with a little more detail about what you recall of seeing Emily Apple uh interacting with fit teams?
02:48:25 Apple uh interacting with fit teams? Yeah, I I can recall being up in Whiteall for something. I I couldn't Oh, forgive me. I couldn't tell you what. Um, and
02:48:33 Um, and she had, well, it just looked like she had been quite recently picked up by one of the fit teams and was just I was walking one way down Whiteall and she was coming up the other way and I just
02:48:45 was coming up the other way and I just saw her with a couple of, you know, the fit team officers following her behind very closely. And you you put your hands out. What what what does that mean? Is that in relation
02:48:57 what does that mean? Is that in relation to what they Well, that that means that it it struck a rather odd sight. She was, you know, walking along white hall with, you know, two uniformed
02:49:09 white hall with, you know, two uniformed fit team officers, you know, really quite close behind her. Um, so that that's one occasion. What about the other occasion that in particular? Could you just help us with that? I I I can't remember exactly where we
02:49:20 I I I can't remember exactly where we were. I I saw her up on something else in the city of London, I think, and she was coming down one of the roads and was and was walking quite quickly and looked a
02:49:32 walking quite quickly and looked a little bit distressed and she had a a fit tune behind her again.
02:49:40 What you've just described sounds like you just saw her for a few seconds on each occasion. Is that is that right? Yeah, I I I think on one of the occasions I saw her again probably
02:49:53 the occasions I saw her again probably an hour or 90 minutes later and they were still sort of stuck to her like glue.
02:50:01 I I wonder if we can just bring up a document. It's MPS7459
02:50:07 please which is sir at your tab B99 and that is in volume three and it's page six of this document
02:50:18 and it's page six of this document please.
02:50:38 So in this document you can see at paragraph three reference to you in this context an extremely useful role
02:50:49 context an extremely useful role performed by RW so Ringrau is the provision of briefings on issues around activism and protests from the activist standpoint that can be used to brief
02:51:01 standpoint that can be used to brief officers involved in public order policing. CO11, TSGs, FIT teams, etc. Uh, two particular papers on
02:51:12 etc. Uh, two particular papers on firstly the current view held by activists of Metropolitan Police Order policing policy. Um and secondly, their attitude to SOCKEA provided extremely
02:51:23 attitude to SOCKEA provided extremely useful relevant useful for the relevant gold commander in charge of policing demonstrations in Westminster and directly impacted on the policing plan. Now, in terms of the reference here to
02:51:37 Now, in terms of the reference here to your role being extremely useful in briefing officers, particularly in relation to the fit teams, you help us what is that a reference to? did because from your earlier description, you were
02:51:48 from your earlier description, you were never briefing the fit teams yourself. No.
02:51:52 No. And and they would never, you know, that wouldn't be a, you know, a very good idea for obvious reasons. I mean, I wouldn't want the fit teams to treat me any differently on the street if they saw me. Um, and if I'd been briefing
02:52:03 saw me. Um, and if I'd been briefing them face to face, clearly they're going to know who I am. Um, but I I I can remember being asked to put something together about SOP. Um, but
02:52:15 something together about SOP. Um, but I I wonder if if this may assist. I wonder if you can take this document down and go move to MPS6945,
02:52:22 please. So, this is in your tab C425, which is in volume 8.
02:52:33 Now, the the document we were just looking at referred to you providing helpful uh briefings and one of them referred to the current view held by activists of the Met Police Order
02:52:47 activists of the Met Police Order policing and this document here does this have a look at clo it closer. Does does that look familiar to you? SDS branch note September 2006. Yes. So if we look at the beginning of it, this
02:52:59 we look at the beginning of it, this note deals with the attitude of political activists to the effectiveness of the Metropolitan Police Services public order policing. It is written from the point of view of activists
02:53:10 from the point of view of activists drawn from both anarchist autonomist groupings and from more organized groups of protests that might be mobilized by organizations such as the Socialist Workers Party. Now this document um goes
02:53:24 Workers Party. Now this document um goes on but this is is this what you believe was one of the documents referred to in the the previous item in terms of briefing the fit teams. Yeah quite possibly. Yes. So if we go perhaps to page six please
02:53:37 So if we go perhaps to page six please in this. Thank you.
02:53:48 I'm I'm
02:53:53 Yes. Sorry, last page. Thank you. So, um, penultimate paragraph, one police tactic that has proved effective in recent years is the use of forward
02:54:04 recent years is the use of forward intelligence teams. fit. They have been able to disrupt the activities of key individuals on the ground by close overt surveillance. This can and has worked to
02:54:16 surveillance. This can and has worked to the activist advantage. However, where police fit teams have been led away as they are tasked against the same old faces, effectively following a decoy away from other clean skins who will
02:54:27 away from other clean skins who will attempt to organize on the ground in their uh place. in relation to uh that description there
02:54:39 in relation to uh that description there it's it refers these are your words saying that they have been able to disrupt the activities of individuals activists
02:54:48 activists so on that theme of disrupting activities but what did you mean by that because here what you're saying is that the forward intelligence teams um are
02:55:02 the forward intelligence teams um are effective and can updrupt the activities of of key individuals. What did you mean by that?
02:55:09 by that? Well, I meant that if you you know, if you if you put extremely overt close, you know, police presence behind somebody, it's clearly going to disrupt their ability to
02:55:20 their ability to um do whatever they were hoping to do that day.
02:55:28 If it was said that this um sort of action um has u and some of the words that have used to describe it a chilling effect on legitimate protest. What would
02:55:42 effect on legitimate protest. What would your reaction to that criticism be that here you are an undercover officer giving feedback saying the fit teams are effective. They are um effective in
02:55:53 effective. They are um effective in disrupting uh activities of key individuals. What's your response to um the potential criticism that well in fact what's happening it's having a chilling chilling effect on legitimate
02:56:05 chilling chilling effect on legitimate protest? What would your response be to that?
02:56:08 that? I I I think looking back on that I would say yeah it's quite quite possibly the case.
02:56:19 Uh, and so looking back on that and just to be clear in relation to that, the chilling effect on legitimate protest, do you have any uh concerns looking back
02:56:32 do you have any uh concerns looking back on the nature of your work in particular as an undercover officer, but more generally the SDS um doing just that having a chilling effect on legitimate protests? Do do you have concerns about
02:56:44 protests? Do do you have concerns about that or or I hope that's not the case. Um, but you know, I can I can see that the criticism, you know, in some areas would be would probably be justified.
02:57:00 And in terms of, for example, Emily Apple, there are number of undercover SDS reports on on Emily Apple.
02:57:11 SDS reports on on Emily Apple. Would you agree that the the risk of reporting multiple times on individuals has the effect of
02:57:23 has the effect of increasing the attention they received by for example forward intelligence teams. So by having a large amount of reporting about specific individuals,
02:57:34 reporting about specific individuals, that intelligence feeds into goes to for example forward intelligence teams and therefore these individuals um suddenly receive a huge amount of attention from say the the fit teams in
02:57:47 attention from say the the fit teams in an inappropriate way as a result of SDS reporting. If if what would you say to that criticism, that connection that you're overreporting on certain individuals, the result of that
02:57:58 individuals, the result of that intelligence doesn't go into a box, it is disseminated and it results in activists such as Emily Apple being, as you described it, followed around. Yeah, I I I can see there's a clear risk
02:58:10 Yeah, I I I can see there's a clear risk there. You know, you can you can end up being very well traced for being well traced, if that makes sense. you know, you could the amount of reporting that went in would clearly I hope that there were checks and balances above that to
02:58:21 were checks and balances above that to try and ensure that those people, you know, were a legitimate target of that type of activity. But I I can see the risk. Yes. I wonder if we can take that document down. Could we please move to MPS73090?
02:58:36 So this is in your tab C445 which is in volume 9. I wonder if you could please turn to uh the top of page two of this. So we can see this um
02:58:48 two of this. So we can see this um report here. Sorry if we can just go back to the first bit just for context. So we can see top right. This is a 29th of March 2007 uh report o of yours
02:59:00 uh report o of yours and we can see the the format of these process reports changed uh by this period. But if you can go to the top of page two, please. Uh, and says the group were not unduly
02:59:12 Uh, and says the group were not unduly surprised that the meeting uh was covered by a police forward intelligence team, FIT, although the presence of a uniformed police spotter from Brighton was considered somewhat unusual. Uh, it
02:59:24 was considered somewhat unusual. Uh, it was a remarked upon that the FIT had apparently arrived in one of their own private cars rather than um a a a marked uh police car. And so in relation to uh
02:59:37 uh police car. And so in relation to uh that you had an awareness o of fit t teams from your perspective of an undercover officer. Yes, I knew that existed. I wonder if you can just um zoom back
02:59:48 I wonder if you can just um zoom back out of that please.
02:59:55 I want to go to another um of your reports. Please could we go to MPS73081?
03:00:01 It's in the same volume. It's tab C443 please.
03:00:14 So this is your report about um DSI arms fair 2007 organizing meeting.
03:00:30 And if we You can see the the just about third of the way up. Can you see it is likely there will be police photographer outside the meeting that
03:00:42 photographer outside the meeting that you may wish to wear a scarf in this cold weather. And what you've done here is you've copy pasted an email um haven't you from from the particular group disarm DSCI. So this is not your
03:00:54 group disarm DSCI. So this is not your words. This is your copy pasting an an email in an email group. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. And so again, you were aware um uh this reference to police photographers, is that um again another
03:01:07 photographers, is that um again another reference to um the fitness team? Yeah, I would imagine so. Yes, definitely. All right. Could we please take that down and move to uh MPS74614,
03:01:22 please? So, this is in tab C470. It's in volume 9.
03:01:28 9. I wonder if we could turn to again this is raw this is the raw reporting from you if you go to page 14 please.
03:01:42 So here we have example of your raw reporting uh privacy continues to attempt to build practical opposition to the Met Police's fit teams. uh privacy
03:01:54 the Met Police's fit teams. uh privacy in conjunction with Emily Apple continues to in appears to be a typo continues to her in her attempts to build opposition to the Metropolitan
03:02:05 build opposition to the Metropolitan Police's forward intelligence teams fit her initial call to arms distributed to various activists and e-lists is attached uh below.
03:02:17 attached uh below. Thought some of you may be interested in the following call to action. read the fit team and police surveillance. Uh this may be relevant to those attending descent meetings. Uh we have all been
03:02:29 descent meetings. Uh we have all been pissed off to varying I wonder if we can just go to the next page please. This is varying degrees by their habit of camping outside meetings. Perhaps we should consider what our future response
03:02:41 should consider what our future response should be. Pictures taken outside the Reading Descent meeting of an individual attempting to hide her identity were recently used by the Met as intelligence to try and justify remanding me in
03:02:53 to try and justify remanding me in custody for a crap charge of obstruct police. It was supposed to indicate that I was the sort to commit offenses. The original charge didn't even have anything to do with the G8 or descent.
03:03:04 anything to do with the G8 or descent. Fortunately, the argument didn't wash, but clearly the police are now happy to use photos of people at meetings to try and indicate criminality. Anyway, the following call out is for a DSEI meeting
03:03:16 following call out is for a DSEI meeting on Saturday, but I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the general theme and check out the blog spot and that's given there. I wonder if we can continue
03:03:27 given there. I wonder if we can continue zoom out again, please.
03:03:34 If we just
03:03:40 All right. And then it say, "Take action against the cops. Take action against the fit teams. 30th of June 2007, University of London, Union, Mallet
03:03:51 University of London, Union, Mallet Street. A call for solidarity outside the next disarmed DSI public meeting. And every time there is a forward intelligence team presence at a meeting or a uh protest
03:04:03 or a uh protest at the last disarm public meeting, as with every other public meeting called by the group since 2002, they were placed in attendance from the Mets fit teams. For anyone who doesn't know,
03:04:14 teams. For anyone who doesn't know, these are the cops who are paid to Harris anarchists and the far-right football fans and Islamic fundamentalists. They follow known people on protest and they stand outside
03:04:25 people on protest and they stand outside public meetings taking photos and writing copious notes. The personal is political. Over the last six years, I have been harassed, wrongfully arrested, assaulted, and driven to a nervous breakdown as a direct result of the
03:04:37 breakdown as a direct result of the treatment I have received from the fit teams. I know people who will not attend meetings or protests because they can't deal with the fit teams. I do not want to watch another person being driven to
03:04:48 to watch another person being driven to the edge by their actions. I do not want to hear of one other person being discouraged from joining our actions because of their behavior. Now just pausing there.
03:05:00 pausing there. This is copy pasted into a report to your uh managers and there's reference uh here uh from Emily Apple describing
03:05:12 uh here uh from Emily Apple describing the effect on her uh her words driven to a nervous breakdown as a direct result of the treatment received from fit teams. Now, in the context of what the
03:05:23 teams. Now, in the context of what the document we looked at earlier of you saying that the use of fit teams is effective and in relation to disrupting um particular activists,
03:05:35 um particular activists, were you concerned about Emily Apple when you read that? Were you concerned about her? Um,
03:05:48 Um, I I don't recall being concerned about her. No.
03:05:58 I wonder if we can um please take that document down and go to uh MPS76324.
03:06:07 So this is your tab B138 in volume 4. I wonder if we can This is again one of your the authorities um for your um undercover deployment. I'm going to ask
03:06:18 undercover deployment. I'm going to ask you if we can turn to page two, please.
03:06:31 Now on this uh page if we just read from the top UCO ring continues to provide excellent strategic and tactical intelligence on the autonomous anarchist scene in London, the UK, Europe, it says
03:06:43 scene in London, the UK, Europe, it says there and Australia. Um after just just pausing there not concerned with anything in particular that you did abroad but what the reference to
03:06:55 abroad but what the reference to Australia does that's mean anything to you
03:06:57 you I I can only think of one activist that I was quite close to who had who had returned to Australia by that point for the avoidance of doubts did you ever travel to Australia as part of your SDS
03:07:09 travel to Australia as part of your SDS undercover operation all right after UCO RW successful operation during the camp for climate action in August. His recent focus was on the bianual defense systems and equipment international DSI exhibition
03:07:22 equipment international DSI exhibition which was held in Docklands between 11th and 14th of September. A premeating was held with officers from the extreme leftwing desk which resulted in very favorable feedback. UCO um RW has
03:07:35 favorable feedback. UCO um RW has submitted 23 reports in this review period. Some of the more notable reports are as follows. Now, just before we go on, that feedback from the extreme left-wing desk, very favorable feedback
03:07:48 left-wing desk, very favorable feedback was contained in this authorization, but did that feedback ever reach you? Um, no, I don't think it did. And no. All right. I wonder if we can just go to the next paragraph, please.
03:08:01 the next paragraph, please. So, it says that RW continues to report on the anti-fit activists uh Privacy and Emily Apple who want to disrupt the FIT team's effectiveness in public order situations. There have now been several
03:08:14 situations. There have now been several instances of activists setting out to frustrate the FIT as they attempt to carry out their duties. This has involved activity such as trying to physically obstruct the movement of the officers and holding up sheets or
03:08:26 officers and holding up sheets or tarpolins to block the photographers's view. DCI flood will take this difficult issue forward at a senior level to try and reduce its impact on f um future
03:08:37 and reduce its impact on f um future public order events. C can you just assist us in relation to um that last reference DCI flood will take this difficult issue forward at a senior
03:08:48 difficult issue forward at a senior level to try and reduce its impact on future public order events. Was this something that you had any awareness of or or or or not? No, not at all.
03:09:00 No, not at all. Could we please take that document uh down and turn to 052693?
03:09:09 So this is in your tab B89 B89 volume 3. And this is a long document. I wonder if you could turn all the way. This is a
03:09:21 you could turn all the way. This is a collection of a number of your um CHIS authorizations. I want to go down all the way to page 52, please.
03:09:44 All right.
03:09:51 Now firstly in in this um I'd like to ask you about can you see the the redaction
03:09:57 redaction block in the middle of the page just below there there's a paragraph. I wonder if we can just focus in on that. So here it says that you RW also immersed himself at the climate action
03:10:08 immersed himself at the climate action near to Heathrow airport in August 2007 and again his product was of the highest quality. It prompted commanders Broadhurst and K to personally thank DS
03:10:21 Broadhurst and K to personally thank DS that's redacted from the DATE public order desk and obviously by association RW. He has also been able to closely monitor the activities of FITWatch led
03:10:35 monitor the activities of FITWatch led by hardened anarchists Emily Apple and Privacy which seeks to disrupt the FIT team at public order events. The description of Emily Apple as a
03:10:46 The description of Emily Apple as a hardened anarchist. Is that something that originated from you? Do you recall? No.
03:10:55 What is your reaction to that uh description in this authorization of Emily Apple as a hardened anarchist? I think probably Emily Apple would
03:11:08 I think probably Emily Apple would wouldn't object to the use of the word anarchist, but I I think hardened is rather
03:11:14 rather strident and unnecessary possible. In terms of the disruption of the fit team. So here it was saying that you have been able to closely monitor the
03:11:27 have been able to closely monitor the activities of fit watch. How were you able to closely monitor the activities of Fitwatch? Is that accurate?
03:11:33 accurate? No, it's not.
03:11:42 again you you have been you were in the um SDS for a number of years. You described it a as um an elite unit.
03:11:54 a as um an elite unit. Do you are you concerned to read um sentences like that that that are inaccurate in documents which are essentially authorizing your deployment? Are you surprised? What is your reaction
03:12:06 Are you surprised? What is your reaction to reading? Because here it says that you have been able to closely monitor the activities of Fitwatch and your evidence just now is that that's that's not correct.
03:12:17 not correct. How how do sentences like that appear in these authorities? What what's your view on on the on the number of inaccuracies in these documents? What's the cause of that?
03:12:28 that? I I I don't know what the cause of it is. I I would imagine it's someone making a case to get an authorization uh through the system again and perhaps
03:12:41 uh through the system again and perhaps not being uh properly familiar with with that particular officer's work or perhaps
03:12:50 perhaps I I don't know. I I I'm not cited. I have no idea. Would you agree with with this observation that as the SDS reached its closing year, so 2007,
03:13:04 SDS reached its closing year, so 2007, the beginning of 2008, as it approached that period that the description of the utility of the reportings exaggerated um
03:13:15 um in order to help continue the SDS. So for example, we have references to u people being ex
03:13:26 we have references to u people being ex extremely close monitoring all of these organizations very very good um uh infiltration of groups um wide knowledge and and the description that's given
03:13:37 and and the description that's given would you accept as a general observation that as the years went by this became increasingly exaggerated with increasingly inaccurate information to try and big up the SDS. Would that be
03:13:48 to try and big up the SDS. Would that be fair? I I I think there's a clear element of some exaggeration. Yes. And I'm surprised because there was no if this was that that date, there was no prospect of being, you know,
03:14:00 prospect of being, you know, reauthorized going forwards. Anyway,
03:14:06 before we break for lunch, I just want to ask you about a specific topic and it is reporting on Muslim groups. Were you ever asked to provide any particular
03:14:18 ever asked to provide any particular intelligence on people from the Muslim faith or Muslim community? Was that ever mentioned
03:14:26 mentioned perhaps earlier in your deployment or as as a as a target? Does that I don't think so. No. I just want to ask you about a couple of your reports and just in that context it may help if to refer you to the specific
03:14:38 may help if to refer you to the specific documents. Could we please put up on screen? NPS307357.
03:14:44 Uh this is in s your tab C38 which is in volume 4. This is going back. It's a report of yours from the 15th of November 2001. Uh but you can see the
03:14:58 November 2001. Uh but you can see the this is in your Groundhog Day days Muslims for justice and peace. So, the report of yours states, "A Muslim woman who attended the South London Stop the
03:15:09 who attended the South London Stop the War Coalition rally at St. Matthews Church, uh, Brixton Hill on the evening of Monday the 12th of November, uh, distributed flyers to other women, apparently downloaded from the internet,
03:15:20 apparently downloaded from the internet, detailing a new group, Muslims for Justice and Peace. One of the organizers is apparently an individual named Privacy. The ethos behind the group's formation is apparently to attract those
03:15:33 formation is apparently to attract those Muslims who are naturally disincined to get involved politically in a movement which is so dominated by groups such as the SWP and CND. Uh the group apparently have an email address or website and
03:15:45 have an email address or website and then it's provided there. Um could you help us with why uh you reported on Muslims for justice and and peace? I mean I it was just as a part of you
03:15:59 I mean I it was just as a part of you know activity that you saw or or came across that could be of potential in interest for the desk. Could it simply be as a result someone's giving out flyers or leaflets. You pick up the leaflet and you do a bit of
03:16:11 up the leaflet and you do a bit of research on it have a look at the website. Could it be something like that?
03:16:13 that? Possibly.
03:16:15 Possibly. Could we take that down and move to MPS treble 6910? So this is at tab C14 which is in volume four.
03:16:26 four. It's a report. It's quite an old one of your reports. It's 5th of October 2001.
03:16:41 So we can see this is focused or the title of it is arrow uh activity and we can see the the description of that group active resistance to roots of war but it's the last sentence that I want
03:16:53 but it's the last sentence that I want to ask you about. It says the meeting attracted a number of Muslim women uh two from Afghanistan. Uh also present was a woman from the pressure group Women in Black and a representative uh
03:17:06 Women in Black and a representative uh from CND. Was there any particular reason that you referred to um a a number of Muslim women? Is this you
03:17:17 number of Muslim women? Is this you hoovering up all the information that you could find? Was there any specific reason why there is such reference in your reporting? No, no, not really. I mean I you know I I would have been out for 35 days you
03:17:29 I would have been out for 35 days you know I think from just doing the mental maths in my head it would have been very very early days of my activity and I think I was you know literally must have been one of my very first reports I would have thought but
03:17:42 would have thought but if you can take that down and just one more report from your very early days before we move a little later if we could turn up please MPS treble 06968.
03:17:54 MPS treble 06968. So at your tab C19 again in volume four. This is
03:18:00 This is a report less than a week later. So this is the 11th of October.
03:18:07 Uh difficult to see the paragraph breaks but it's the second paragraph. Can you see it says a number of local residents and students who would not normally describe themselves being politically
03:18:18 describe themselves being politically engaged or in some instances even sympathetic to the left also attended. In total, nearly 30 people were present, including two Muslim Muslim men who
03:18:29 including two Muslim Muslim men who joined the meeting almost as it finished at 8:45
03:18:32 at 8:45 p.m. Again, this is going back right at the start of your deployment as you've just indicated, but there seem to be a number of references to either men or
03:18:43 number of references to either men or women um being Muslim. Did that ring any bells in terms of what you were asked to look at or was it something that you yourself just felt that was relevant? I think no it was just something I must
03:18:56 think no it was just something I must have felt relevant at the time perhaps to make them identifiable if it was required to but no there's no agenda there.
03:19:02 there. I'm going to move forward in time to 2004 and the next report I want you to look at is MPS325.
03:19:15 It's tab C294.
03:19:18 Uh this is in volume seven. It's a report of yours and we've the inquir put a date of the 25th of March 2004 to this. So this is the this is the year
03:19:29 this. So this is the this is the year that you
03:19:31 that you leave globalized resistance. But again in terms of this um report here it's could we turn to sorry it is a series of your reports. Turn to page two please.
03:19:42 your reports. Turn to page two please. It's the top report. We can see globalized resistance privacy as an activist for globalized resistance. Uh he has recently moved in with an Asian uh female friend after
03:19:53 with an Asian uh female friend after previously living alone for some years in a bed sitting room in the Camden area. Uh he is to rent a pair of rooms from the woman, a bedroom and a smaller room that he intends to equip as an office. The pair are not a couple in the
03:20:05 office. The pair are not a couple in the romantic sense and it is understood that the female friend has considerable trust issues with men and that privacy is the only male friend uh she has that she would ever consider allowing into her
03:20:16 would ever consider allowing into her home on a permanent basis. The friend apparently works in radical theater and enjoys close links with the Muslim community in the West London area,
03:20:28 community in the West London area, particularly in women women's groups and community care projects. And so in terms of this reporting, so this is not right at the start of your reporting. This is
03:20:42 at the start of your reporting. This is um three or so years into your deployment. Um, why are you reporting on someone who has links with a Muslim community group?
03:20:53 community group? Again, just it just in the context, I mean, it looks like the focus of that particular report is actually the male described in the first paragraph. Um,
03:21:04 described in the first paragraph. Um, and it's just some detail around that really some extra detail. It's just the kind of detail we were asked to provide. And in terms of the u
03:21:16 And in terms of the u the the reference um to an individual having trust issue trust issues with men and and we can see the description there. Do do you agree that um looking
03:21:28 there. Do do you agree that um looking back on on such reporting that that it was um inappropriate to go into that detail about um individuals that were not your targets? Yes. Yes, I would. All right. Um, one um, last um, item I
03:21:42 All right. Um, one um, last um, item I want to refer you to before we break for lunch. It is is in relation to HN72's witness statement. There's something that HN72 set out in his witness statement I want to ask you about before
03:21:53 statement I want to ask you about before we break for lunch. It's a MPS0749345.
03:21:59 And I wonder if we can go to page 160 because I want to ask you about um, what is set out in paragraph there. So if we can take come out of
03:22:10 there. So if we can take come out of this document. So it's paragraph 351. Okay.
03:22:17 Okay. So it's about six lines up from the bottom. Can you see it says some of HN118's targets were taking advantage of a free kitchen in a mosque somewhere in South London. I think this is what you
03:22:29 South London. I think this is what you referred to uh when you were talking about your discussions with Mr. McCertie. Is that Yeah, possibly. the the the kitchen in the mosque. So, some of HM118's targets were taking advantage of a free kitchen
03:22:41 were taking advantage of a free kitchen in a mosque somewhere in South London. HN118 said at a meeting that he was well placed to report on the level of extremism in the mosque. I refused. I
03:22:52 extremism in the mosque. I refused. I think that was beyond collateral intrusion and more like targeting. I was pleased that he raised it and he responded to my views. Now do do you
03:23:05 responded to my views. Now do do you recall
03:23:07 recall that um as described by HN72 saying you say well look I'm well placed to report on extremism in the mosque and HN72
03:23:19 on extremism in the mosque and HN72 saying words well thanks for bring for bringing that to my attention but no um it's um collateral intrusion. Does that ring any bells at all? It it yeah it does. Um not really in the
03:23:30 It it yeah it does. Um not really in the context of of collateral intrusion. It was more that there were some, you know, there was a um a suggestion that there might be some activity around that particular place,
03:23:43 activity around that particular place, but but he definitely told me to stay in my lane and told me to back off and I did.
03:23:48 did. So, I don't know if that's a convenient time to break for lunch. Certainly. Uh we'll resume at two.