Mark Jenner (HN15) continues his evidence covering his infiltration of Red Action, invitation to join the organization in July 1998, and 'Jamie's plot' - a potential serious criminal conspiracy. He discusses travel to Belfast/Derry in August 1995, the mixing with IRA allegation, and SDS exaggeration of intelligence about Red Action's connections to Irish Republican terrorism. Jenner admits managers' reports overstated threats to impress their chain of command. He also covers his reporting on building workers groups and the IWCA formation.
00:10:12 Good afternoon everybody. This afternoon's proceedings like this morning's are being uh transmitted but only after a 10-minute delay. Those with mobile telephones may use them to to
00:10:23 mobile telephones may use them to to report to the outside world what they've heard, but only 10 minutes after the event that they're reporting about has elapsed. They may not be used for recording or photography. Mr. Bar,
00:10:35 recording or photography. Mr. Bar, thank you, sir. Could we go please to your tab B45749
00:10:41 473.
00:10:47 Thank you. Uh this is a document which records the fact that you went to Northern Ireland between the 9th and the 15th of August 1995.
00:11:01 15th of August 1995. If we look at the text in the middle um the of the gist
00:11:10 witness disturbances at both venues that being London Derry in West Belfast as part of an informal community anarchist delegation from the Colin Roach Center in Stoke Newington the officer mixed
00:11:22 in Stoke Newington the officer mixed freely with the provisional IRA. Can I ask you first of all how did that trip come about?
00:11:33 trip come about? It was as far as I was aware that it was something that Mark Metaf had organized and I think I'm not sure if Headley was involved or not but he he'd got contacts
00:11:44 involved or not but he he'd got contacts over there. I don't know who they were or what it was. We just told it was happening and conveniently I had a means of transport. Uh so I that's as I
00:11:55 of transport. Uh so I that's as I understood it. What role did you play in the decision to go? None whatsoever. Uh Mr. Metaf said in evidence that you encouraged the trip.
00:12:06 encouraged the trip. That's nonsense. No, I didn't. Uh what role did you play in organizing it other than contributing the van? None whatsoever. Was there any attempt to dissuade you
00:12:18 Was there any attempt to dissuade you from going in the van? No, I was useful. Uh you are a long way from the Metropolitan Police District uh in
00:12:30 Metropolitan Police District uh in Northern Ireland. Why did you go? Because it's that was what was required of me. Uh the activists were going there and obviously it was quite interesting as well. So yeah, that was the reason.
00:12:42 as well. So yeah, that was the reason. Quite interesting in what sense? Well, because it was going to Northern Ireland and it was the first indication that there were contacts between the CRC, whatever they were, uh and Northern Ireland. So that's sort of reasonably
00:12:53 Ireland. So that's sort of reasonably flagged up as being interesting to me. Now we've heard evidence last week to the effect that there were various local events all of which were
00:13:06 various local events all of which were lawful. Is that true? Yes. Social events that you attended. Yeah. Yeah. The gist said mi that said that you
00:13:17 The gist said mi that said that you mixed freely with the provisional IRA. Can I ask you to give me a yes or no answer? Is it true that you personally
00:13:29 answer? Is it true that you personally mixed freely with people that you actually knew to be members of the provisional IRA at that time? No.
00:13:41 at that time? No. Were you satisfied with the arrangements that were made to ensure your safety in Northern Ireland? I didn't even consider that.
00:13:52 I didn't even consider that. Did you feel as if you were under any risk when you were there? Well, there's always a risk and particularly so there, but that was a risk that I was prepared to take and I
00:14:04 risk that I was prepared to take and I depended upon myself to mitigate that. And Allison accompanied you on that trip, didn't she? She did. Yeah. Did you encourage her to go?
00:14:15 Did you encourage her to go? No.
00:14:15 No. Are you sure about that? Absolutely.
00:14:20 Could we take that document down now please and go to file two tab C 32 245537.
00:14:39 This is a report dated the 4th of October 1995. If we could look at the text, please
00:14:47 give you a moment to absorb that.
00:15:12 Okay. Can you help us with what you meant by serious anti-fascist activity? I can't actually remember making this report, but I I obviously did do. But by
00:15:23 report, but I I obviously did do. But by that reading that uh serious anti-fascist would be proactive uh physical activity against known fascists.
00:15:33 fascists. Why proactive? Because there was a no platform for fascism
00:15:38 fascism and whoever it was. When you say physical, do you mean just turning out to face down the far right? Both physical and confront them as well.
00:15:51 Both physical and confront them as well. And when you use the phrase capable street fighters, what do you mean by that?
00:15:58 that? People who are capable of physical conflict
00:16:02 conflict in self-defense or offense or both? Both.
00:16:08 Both. The gist of this uh report appears to be uh that the group's concerned didn't have the capacity to do that at that time.
00:16:19 time. Correct.
00:16:21 Correct. Can you help us with how explicit discussions were about what anti-fascist activity would was aspired to?
00:16:33 was aspired to? Well, again, this is uh discussions I had with Metcov. It was a I think I can't remember the timeline of this, but he was trying to turn the Colin Roach Center into a like a a party as such and
00:16:47 Center into a like a a party as such and anti-fascism was a part of that party. I think he called it resistance or something. Um and so his obviously he'd had previous experience in AFA and the
00:16:59 had previous experience in AFA and the tactics that they adopted of confronting u fascism in however it reared its head whether that's by debate on the one hand
00:17:10 whether that's by debate on the one hand or a physical confrontation and being proactively inactive in driving them out of the community. Are you suggesting that there were people from the NMP
00:17:23 people from the NMP who were explicitly advocating physically attacking people as opposed to exercising the lawful right to self-defense? No, I don't. Uh that's not
00:17:36 self-defense? No, I don't. Uh that's not I wouldn't have what I mean I I knew of the NMP uh through Metaf, but from what I knew of them, they would be more an ideological opposition rather than an
00:17:47 ideological opposition rather than an actual physical confrontational. The same with the Dayare uh group as well, I put them in in a similar category. And as for people at the Colin Roach Center,
00:17:57 Center, I would say that yes, there were individuals there. Certainly Metaf was minded of that who were capable of physical confrontation albeit not large numbers
00:18:07 numbers in self-defense self-defense proactive. I come back to that in more detail later. For the moment can we take that down and can we have up tab C39245571.
00:18:29 This is a report 13th of October 1995.
00:18:36 1995. Uh can we have the main the first three paragraphs of text expanded please?
00:19:21 Okay.
00:19:25 The first paragraph tells us that the CRC was going to produce an anti-fascist bulletin. Can you help us with identifying that? Is this a publication called RPM or a different publication? I
00:19:37 called RPM or a different publication? I I I don't know. No, I think RPM came that was more of an umbrella thing. Mark Metaf had various fantastic ideas about producing
00:19:48 fantastic ideas about producing bulletins and newspapers and all of this sort of stuff. Um I can't ever imagine or I can't remember this actually ever coming into fruition. So I can't really answer that. It it may have been a
00:20:00 answer that. It it may have been a standalone pamphlet. I don't know. I can't remember because at the bottom of paragraph three it says the at its inception the editorial board of this bulletin will comprise of privacy Mark Cassidy and
00:20:11 comprise of privacy Mark Cassidy and Mark Metaf. How did you come to be one of the three uh members of the editorial board? I was probably co-opted by Metaf.
00:20:23 I was probably co-opted by Metaf. What role did you play? I can't remember. Did you actually write anything for the CRC? I don't not in relation to that. I don't think I did. No, I can't even remember it.
00:20:34 remember it. Did you ever contribute to their literature? I think I did. Yeah. When writing um on behalf of the CRC, what how did you decide what line to
00:20:46 what how did you decide what line to take in your journalism? Go through Moff.
00:20:52 He he he had overview of everything. So anything I would do or write would have to go through him for approval. Did you give any consideration to
00:21:06 Did you give any consideration to the the fact that how you wrote might influence people? No.
00:21:13 No. Can we take that down now please? And can we have up uh C41245619
00:21:23 uh 27th of October 1995. Now, if we could have the three paragraphs of text up, please. Um, I'll let you familiarize yourself uh with it, but the my
00:21:34 yourself uh with it, but the my questions are going to arise from the first two paragraphs.
00:21:51 Yeah. So, can I take it? You attended the anarchist book fair on Saturday the 21st of October 1995. Yes, I did. Why would you go to an anarchist book fair?
00:22:01 fair? Well, it was a general book fair. You didn't have to be an anarchist to go there. It was a talking shop and it was books and just of interest. It was open to the public and I wanted to go as part of your cover.
00:22:12 as part of your cover. Yeah.
00:22:13 Yeah. To meet activists? Not necessarily. So, no. Just to see what was going on. You end up though attending in the upstairs room an impromptu meeting of
00:22:25 upstairs room an impromptu meeting of the map liel support campaign. Can I take it from the word impromptu that this was entirely spontaneous on your part?
00:22:34 part? As far as I was concerned it was. I can remember someone coming down and saying there's a a meeting upstairs. So I didn't think that there was any pre-planning involved in that. I happened to be there along with us just drifted up. And self-evidently you've reported on
00:22:46 And self-evidently you've reported on it.
00:22:47 it. Yes. Why did you report on it? Because it's a group that's of interest to the SDS. Why was the MLE support campaign of interest?
00:22:57 interest? Because they had been reporting on it from its inception. Um Dave Morris was known a known person though I'd never met him prior to that. Um yeah, it was
00:23:09 met him prior to that. Um yeah, it was of interest. And And what did you understand the Matt Liel support campaign to be doing? I think at the time that they were trying to sue McDonald's over something or other. I don't know. But certainly
00:23:20 or other. I don't know. But certainly you mentioned their London Greenpeace were mentioned and I that is an organization that I remember being associated with Bob Lambert which stood out.
00:23:32 out. Had you gathered then your your knowledge that the Matt Liel support campaign was of interest from Bob Lambert or from other sources as well? It was it was a well-known campaign. Um,
00:23:44 It was it was a well-known campaign. Um, and I was there and I reported it as as part of hooing up intelligence wherever I found it. Did you have any knowledge of previous reporting on the Mac Libel support campaign?
00:23:54 campaign? No.
00:23:58 You are right to summize that the M Liel support campaign was supporting uh Dave Morris and Helen Steel uh in taking uh well defending liable action taken
00:24:11 well defending liable action taken against them. Why was the why did special branches interest in these people extend to their defense of
00:24:23 these people extend to their defense of civil litigation? I have no idea.
00:24:28 Did you can you help us with what you anticipated would be done with this reporting? Uh, I should imagine just there'll be a file on Dave Morris and it would be
00:24:42 file on Dave Morris and it would be attached to a file. That's all. I I never really gave it any thought as to what was going to happen with the uh intelligence afterwards. The second paragraph uh talks about uh
00:24:55 The second paragraph uh talks about uh forthcoming revelations and uh there is a suggestion that on four occasions uh the campaign had been infiltrated.
00:25:07 uh the campaign had been infiltrated. Can you help us with your understanding of whether it was being said the campaign had been infiltrated um sorry London Greenpeace had been infiltrated by commercial or police
00:25:19 infiltrated by commercial or police spies?
00:25:21 spies? No idea. This was just something that Dave Morris again this was a public meeting. It wasn't a a private secret meeting. So it was just a general background on on the organization.
00:25:33 background on on the organization. Were you aware of any contacts between uh special branch and McDonald's? No.
00:25:41 No. Did you think that this uh intelligence might be used um to inform McDonald's of what was going on?
00:25:51 on? Not at all. No. When you say not at all, do you mean you don't know? I I don't know. because it was again it was just one of a number of you know I also mentioned the vegetarian society
00:26:02 also mentioned the vegetarian society and all that sort of thing that was all part and parcel of that what happened to this and where it went and who it would have been of interest no idea Mr. Metaf gave evidence that the CRC
00:26:13 Mr. Metaf gave evidence that the CRC supported this campaign and leafleted on its behalf. Is that correct? It may well have done. I don't recall that. But yeah, I don't Were you involved in doing that? I don't remember doing that. No,
00:26:25 I don't remember doing that. No, if you could take that document down now. Um,
00:26:30 now. Um, John Dyn,
00:26:32 John Dyn, whilst you were an undercover officer, uh, did it come to your attention, uh, that Helen Steel was searching for John Dyn.
00:26:47 I can't, it certainly didn't come from any of the activists. I think later on it was mentioned I think Bob Lambert
00:26:58 it was mentioned I think Bob Lambert might have mentioned it um in relation to some visit overseas that she'd made in relation to to that. What steps did you understand the SDS to
00:27:09 What steps did you understand the SDS to be taking in response to Helen Steel's search for John Dyn? I wasn't aware of any steps that was something that the management were dealing with.
00:27:21 dealing with. Could we have up please from tab C58245850
00:27:26 please
00:27:31 this uh document if we look on page this is it's 13th of January 1996 now at the Devon Center White Chapel it's a meeting of the solidarity federation I'd like to
00:27:45 of the solidarity federation I'd like to go please to page two in the last paragraph
00:27:53 I'll uh let you uh read that. But I'm particularly interested in the last two or three lines.
00:28:53 Okay. Uh, the last few lines talk about make an observation about Mr. Blair, Miss Steel, and Mr. Morris. These are the type of anarchist prepared to live out their
00:29:06 anarchist prepared to live out their beliefs and as such will always be about to present problems. What did you mean by that?
00:29:14 by that? Well, it was a measure of their commitment and I can't remember. Well, obviously I did mention Norman Blair, but he must have been at that uh thing. That was just a general assessments because they were prepared to
00:29:27 because they were prepared to a lot as I said earlier in that a lot of the anarchist type was they were sort of very middle class lifestyle people they weren't polit politically they weren't committed anarchists in the in you know
00:29:39 committed anarchists in the in you know I don't like some of the other organizations the solid solidarity federation for example um but what the likes of Helen Steel Dave Morris and the they were people who
00:29:52 Dave Morris and the they were people who not only sort of lived that lifestyle as far as I could see but were committed politically to it as well. So what did you mean by problems? Uh well problems in any sort of case in
00:30:05 Uh well problems in any sort of case in interesting uh from an SDS and special branch point of view. Yeah. the problems of causing um public or potential public order issues or just coming to notice
00:30:17 order issues or just coming to notice because of their background. Although I wasn't involved in that in that particular thing, but they've been around for a long time. So yeah, problems is perhaps a bit of a generalization that respect.
00:30:28 generalization that respect. Did you report these views essentially because of their notoriety?
00:30:37 It probably is an element of that. Yeah. because I they were not people who I would mix with or you know I had any interest in in what they were doing that was could have been happening elsewhere
00:30:50 was could have been happening elsewhere it was just a generalization on my part notoriety definitely to the SDS and special yeah I think so yeah longevity as well can we take that down please could we have from tab C44245647
00:31:14 Uh this is a report 4th of November 1995 of a meeting of Republican Forum at the London Welsh Center Grazin Road. From
00:31:27 London Welsh Center Grazin Road. From the first paragraph, you will see um the speakers are recorded and they were Michael Donigan of the Olter executive committee of Republican
00:31:38 Olter executive committee of Republican Shinfane and Kevin McQuillin of the Liam Meadows Committee and it records McQuillin was formerly vice chair of the IRSP, the Irish Republican Socialist
00:31:51 IRSP, the Irish Republican Socialist Party.
00:31:53 Party. Were you at this meeting? I was. Can we go to paragraphs two and three, please?
00:32:02 Paragraph two summarizes uh Mr. Donigan's uh speech and the role which is about the Republican Shin Feain. I'll let you
00:32:15 Republican Shin Feain. I'll let you absorb the content of those two paragraphs.
00:32:41 Okay. Would it be fair to summarize these speakers as men who were talking about the Irish question through the prisms of class, communism, and socialism?
00:32:52 class, communism, and socialism? Yes.
00:32:53 Yes. And if we go to paragraph four,
00:33:02 uh, I'll let you absorb that, but is the bottom the question will be the bottom line is they were anti- the ceasefire then in place and they were in favor of
00:33:13 then in place and they were in favor of the resumption of the arms struggle. Correct.
00:33:17 Correct. And what was the significance of that line to you as an SDS undercover police officer?
00:33:27 officer? Well, looking at the uh at that particular time 1995, everybody uh the government led everyone to believe that the ceasefire that come
00:33:40 to believe that the ceasefire that come into peace in 94 was a permanent thing. certainly an an element of that to move on.
00:33:47 on. Um and that that certainly was the case when I wrote this report and went to that meeting, but there were still and then Inla or IRSP or the political wing
00:33:59 then Inla or IRSP or the political wing of hadn't agreed to a ceasefire yet. Um, and so they were looking to put their
00:34:08 put their viewpoint
00:34:10 viewpoint to the forefront of why they shouldn't accept the the uh the ceasefire because it was um completely the struggle wasn't over.
00:34:20 over. How prevalent were anti- peace protest views in the circles you were mixing in? Well, up until the point that I got in
00:34:31 Well, up until the point that I got in involved in Republican Forum, uh there weren't any. I don't know. I don't remember seeing any in Belfast. I did speak to a couple of people in
00:34:42 did speak to a couple of people in Republican Shinfane um in West Belfast who yeah, they were they were skeptical rather than critical. They had to be careful what they were saying there.
00:34:53 they were saying there. It it wasn't it was pretty an unusual line to take in my experience anyway. And the paragraph we've got expanded here includes the uh sentence, "Many in
00:35:04 here includes the uh sentence, "Many in the audience expressed disqu about the platform's rejection of the ceasefire. Was that disqure?"
00:35:15 Was that disqure?" No, I just got a feeling that, you know, I think they expected to get a bit more support from the ground floor. I mean, I don't there were various it was a public
00:35:26 don't there were various it was a public meeting, so I don't know. Uh, there were various people in there. They weren't all necessarily supporters of the IRSP in that respect. So, yeah, I think people were at that time very optimistic
00:35:39 people were at that time very optimistic about the success of the peace process in Northern Ireland. Um and so yes and that that was my assessment at the time focusing on those who were arguing against it in terms of what they were
00:35:51 against it in terms of what they were actually doing. How much of what they were doing was talk and how much of it was action. What the people who we're talking about
00:36:02 What the people who we're talking about here the
00:36:02 here the the people who were against the ceasefire
00:36:06 ceasefire well I don't know in terms of action I mean this is all happening in Northern Ireland. I mean, McQuillin had come over here at this particular time. He was still injured. He him and a colleague of his
00:36:17 his narrowly escaped being murdered during a few two years earlier. He'd come over here primarily for a rest and recuperation type of thing and an
00:36:28 recuperation type of thing and an opportunity for a platform to express his views on that. But it was still very much
00:36:34 much my understanding at this particular time there wasn't a great deal of support. It was a minority type of view in terms of the overall confidence in the peace process at that time
00:36:45 process at that time and they themselves were advancing their point of view through talk and argument. Yes.
00:36:55 How big was the Republican forum? Uh what in terms of numbers or groups? Both.
00:37:03 Both. Uh I expect there would have been what half a dozen maybe half a dozen groups. Um and then the meetings would be
00:37:14 Um and then the meetings would be there be it would vary like 20 people perhaps. They weren't huge but they were representing various strands of uh anti- peace process type points of view.
00:37:28 anti- peace process type points of view. At this stage, was the focus of Republican Forum all on Ireland or was it more widely on a Republican movement generally?
00:37:39 generally? I think the main focus obviously was on Northern Ireland, but there were I think there was uh it did try to offer a wider umbrella. So you'd had I don't think
00:37:51 umbrella. So you'd had I don't think there was certain an input from like Welsh nationalist type thing all that very sort of peripheral type of groups but yes the main focus was on Northern Ireland
00:38:02 Ireland and in terms of revolutionary potency to overthrow um our system of democracy with a constitutional monarchy. How potent was
00:38:14 constitutional monarchy. How potent was the republican forum? Well, as a forum, that's all. It was a forum. It was the constituents of that particular um or certain elements of them including
00:38:26 um or certain elements of them including the IRSP at that time would certainly fit that description. Well, in the terms of that's what they wanted.
00:38:33 wanted. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that is what Irish Republican My question is, uh what were their prospects of bringing it about through the Republican forum? Yeah, very little.
00:38:43 little. Can we uh take that document down now and go to from tab B24 sir 527890
00:39:02 page two please
00:39:06 following the chronology this is 31st of January 1996 it a completely different subject. It's an authority for you to work outside the
00:39:18 an authority for you to work outside the Metropolitan Police District. It says the above named officer has been requested by his organization to travel to Sunderland on the 30th of January 1996 for the purpose of a meeting. The
00:39:31 1996 for the purpose of a meeting. The officer will remain outside the Metropolitan Police District overnight. Official transport will be used. If we translate that from official
00:39:43 If we translate that from official administrative documentation to the ground truth, does that mean to say you used your van to drive you and Mark Metaf to the Sunderland against Tranmir Rovers match?
00:39:54 Rovers match? Yeah, but primarily, but it was on Metaf's Yeah, it was a long way. It was a night game, so it didn't, you know, and we didn't say overnight you came back, but he did say he had some paperwork he needed to pick up Colin
00:40:05 paperwork he needed to pick up Colin Roach's paperwork that was at his parents' address. So it was killing two birds with one stone. But yeah, essentially I was going up for the football.
00:40:13 football. But whatever. Uh certainly what you've described doesn't amount to a meeting. No, it's not. Well, it wasn't a meeting. No.
00:40:19 No. Can you help us why someone felt the need to uh write it up as a meeting as opposed to you traveling to a football match with one of the people you were mixing with undercover?
00:40:31 mixing with undercover? Well, I'm speculating here, but I was going out there going up there with Mark Meov and Allison, by the way. Um, and yeah, it was worth mentioning why it was dressed as a meeting. I don't know. This
00:40:42 dressed as a meeting. I don't know. This is these are all these authorities go up the line. It's just it's a box ticking exercise. So, you know, they could have written whatever they wanted. Then it got to a point where I didn't bother
00:40:53 got to a point where I didn't bother telling them in the end, but there we are.
00:40:54 are. Was Allison's presence the sensitivity?
00:40:59 Say sensit the sensitivity. Was Alice's Allison's presence why this is written up in the way it is and not entirely truthfully?
00:41:10 not entirely truthfully? No, I don't think they she wasn't even mentioned. I don't think. Sorry. When you say not even mentioned, do you mean? I don't think I I mentioned her. She came up because it was a jolly she's
00:41:21 came up because it was a jolly she's going to see a football game up in in Sunderland. Was that It might even been midweek. I can't remember now, but we were there back in the day. Could we take that document down now please?
00:41:33 we take that document down now please? Tab C108. Next 246303.
00:41:41 Now coming on to the theme of the Independent Working Class Association. This is a document dated the 23rd of May
00:41:52 This is a document dated the 23rd of May at 19
00:41:54 at 19 1996.
00:41:57 I'll give you an opportunity to look at paragraph one first of all.
00:42:04 In fact, forgive me. We need to look at another document first. Could we have a uh tab C47245678
00:42:24 and 14th of November 1995 if paragraph one up please.
00:42:47 How closely were you involved uh with the instigation of the IWCA? I wasn't involved at all. Only made aware of it when they came to the Colin
00:42:59 aware of it when they came to the Colin Roach Center. At this stage, how strong were your connections with Red Action? Uh, what date is this? November. November 95. Well, I mean, a couple of weeks earlier,
00:43:11 Well, I mean, a couple of weeks earlier, I had come into contact with them. Um, but I didn't have any real contact with them up until I met met them at this particular meeting.
00:43:22 particular meeting. Paragraph two, please.
00:43:29 In private, RA leaders admit that the ICW, the IWCA is simply a front for red action to enable it to sustain its position in workingclass politics. Is
00:43:41 position in workingclass politics. Is that were you privy to those in private conversations or are you getting this secondhand? I well I'm getting I think it's a mix of secondhand and also in my opinion.
00:43:55 secondhand and also in my opinion. Can you help us then as to why you formed the opinion that the IWCA was simply a front? Well, it's like a lot of organizations, you know, Red Action were they've been
00:44:06 you know, Red Action were they've been going for a long time back then. Um, but they set up an organization which was community-based on a national they had quite grandiose
00:44:17 on a national they had quite grandiose schemes to make that successful. But the political direction of it and all the ideas and pushing for it to happen came from within that organization. Was it an organization whose membership
00:44:30 Was it an organization whose membership over overlapped with but was not the same as Red Action? Yes, I would say so. Not in all cases but mostly. Yeah. An organiza an organization which had a
00:44:42 An organiza an organization which had a purpose which was different from Red Actions
00:44:45 Actions on the face of it. Yeah. says, "The Earthworld magnet which drew people into the RA orbit, anti-fascist action is less attractive now that the LA the right is largely inactive. Red
00:44:59 LA the right is largely inactive. Red Action feels its influence sliding.
00:45:04 sliding. It's right, isn't it, that the far right uh were confronting um people publicly far less than they
00:45:15 um people publicly far less than they were earlier in the '90s. Well, I'm not sure I probably dispute the fact they were confronting anybody. I think it was the other way around. Certainly, Red Action had done uh huge
00:45:26 Certainly, Red Action had done uh huge strides into physically beating them off the streets successfully so as well. So to understand your evidence by this stage they had been successfully beaten off the streets pretty much. Yeah.
00:45:40 The hope they hope that the IWCA will appeal to the same type of activists who joined AFA namely workingclass street fighters with little political sophistication. Such raw material will
00:45:51 sophistication. Such raw material will be very valuable to RA. Could you explain in what way that sort of person would be very valuable? Well, I think that like in a lot of
00:46:02 I think that like in a lot of organizations, you have people who make the political decisions, uh, have all the policy in that, but you still need people to to be the foot soldiers to make that happen. Be it leafleting or
00:46:15 make that happen. Be it leafleting or ensuring security around leafleting because they were going into communities where probably some of the left-wing groups would shy away from the white workingclass type of estates in London
00:46:27 workingclass type of estates in London certainly. So they needed a core of people who they could rely on for security really. Why if the fascists had been beaten off the street, did they need that? Well,
00:46:40 the street, did they need that? Well, you said the fascists have beaten off the streets in in as much that there were no or very few overt paper sales like there had been year and years previously, but there was a still a
00:46:51 previously, but there was a still a strong
00:46:54 strong anti- red attitude, shall we say, in certain places in London where it wasn't a safe place to be espousing left-wing
00:47:05 a safe place to be espousing left-wing politics, shall we say?
00:47:08 Can we now go to the document we had up a moment ago? C108246303
00:47:24 paragraph one. We're moving now from November to November 95 to May 96. And this is about the launch of the
00:47:35 And this is about the launch of the IWCA.
00:47:37 IWCA. We were looking 6 months earlier at its formation. Can you explain the difference between formation and launch and what was happening? I mean the the I think that the the the
00:47:50 I mean the the I think that the the the other report the early report refers to when two red action members came to the Colin Roach Center. they'd been invited to speak on behalf of and I think at that stage they were just sounding out
00:48:03 that stage they were just sounding out uh for support amongst community groups that they had sort of minimal contact or knowledge of and then if they were amanable to that
00:48:14 and then if they were amanable to that to in you know obviously take sides or support the IWCA the actual launch meant that the it was strong enough or was felt to be strong enough to actually
00:48:25 felt to be strong enough to actually launch it as a political entity. at that later date. Can we look at paragraph three please?
00:48:38 This is about strategy. The IW.CA is aware, however, just how controversial is its policy of relegating the issue of immigration to become secondary to the housing problem for white working-class
00:48:50 housing problem for white working-class communities. This will rankle the politically correct left who are seen as middleclass reformists, but it is aimed at attracting the racist white workingclass who might otherwise be
00:49:01 workingclass who might otherwise be expected to vote for the BMP. As its policies become more publicly known, the IWCA will be fighting a political battle with the broad left. It will either
00:49:13 with the broad left. It will either succeed in its own right or fail and in consequence be reduced to a white male dominated group rather like Red Action Circa 1982. Mhm.
00:49:23 Mhm. Can I take from that that the methodology of the IWCA was going to be participation in the democratic process? Yes.
00:49:34 Yes. And uh it was focused on contesting elections rather than promoting disorder.
00:49:41 disorder. Yes. But not obviously that wouldn't be the candidates that uh they were hoping to encourage would be community activists. Red Action themselves
00:49:52 activists. Red Action themselves wouldn't be taking a part in in that type of thing cuz as I've said there they had a bit of a a bad reputation. It's not certainly not one that would attract anyone to vote for them in a in
00:50:03 attract anyone to vote for them in a in a in a local election for example. And does it follow that in so far as the IWCA wanted to change this country um it was seeking to do so entirely through
00:50:16 was seeking to do so entirely through democratic means? Well, that was what they said. Yeah, that was the intention. Is it what they did? Well, that's time will tell, but at the time they they I I know certainly they had one there was
00:50:28 know certainly they had one there was one counselor who was a former member of Red Action, but and whether or not they were successful in doing that, I don't know. But I I I think I've I've said in other um reports
00:50:42 think I've I've said in other um reports that they mirrored very much that the Shinfane approach in in Northern Ireland. So, it was like a Shinfane um Pyra dynamic on a smaller scale.
00:50:55 um Pyra dynamic on a smaller scale. That may begin to answer my next qu question which is if the IWCA is not involved in public disorder and it is behaving democratically
00:51:07 and it is behaving democratically and it has no chance of seizing power. Why is it being reported on? Well, there's having political aims on the one
00:51:19 there's having political aims on the one hand and there's the way of how how you know that's it was aspirational at this stage.
00:51:25 stage. Yes. All very noble. I think every leftwing group probably have those perception of one or two of you know going down that road of democratic elections and all the rest of it.
00:51:36 elections and all the rest of it. Whether that would actually come to anything or not it seemed a bit of a leaf of imagination. So at that stage that was my view on it. perfectly legitimate way of uh reporting on this
00:51:47 legitimate way of uh reporting on this what at the time was a clear red action front.
00:51:54 Why does being if just assume for the moment it's a red a for the purpose of this question it's a red action front. Why does that justify reporting on an entirely peaceful democratic
00:52:05 entirely peaceful democratic organization? Because they're related to red action in a different name. And what is it about Red Action that causes a concern? Well, not a concern. It's a wellstated fact. You know, if you look at the left
00:52:18 fact. You know, if you look at the left wing, in my opinion, Red Action were the premium predators. They were the top of the tree. They'd had two, well, in the time I was there, they had two members
00:52:30 time I was there, they had two members arrested and convicted for terrorism, access to firearms, explosives, even firing on on police officers. That makes them pretty dangerous. Yeah, we'll come to that in a in in due
00:52:42 Yeah, we'll come to that in a in in due course. But just to be clear, that's in your time in special branch. Yes.
00:52:49 Can we go now to C 111 246 345?
00:53:06 This is um dated the 2nd of June 1996. It's a meeting of anti-fascist action uh at the Tutenshrive Public House Upper Street Islington. Uh
00:53:20 Public House Upper Street Islington. Uh it's about um AFA's relationship with the IW.CA
00:53:25 the IW.CA in the context of a report in of a meeting in this pub. If you want to have a quick look at that page um to refresh your memory, we'll then once you're ready go over the page to the source
00:53:38 ready go over the page to the source comment.
00:54:35 Okay, if we go over the page to the source comment. Now, the overall impression given by this meeting was that AFA is an integral part of the IW.CA with its own emphasis on white
00:54:46 IW.CA with its own emphasis on white working-class males who enjoy violence. Since Red Action runs AFA and AFA will end up running the IWCA, it is almost inevitable that the IWCA will end up
00:54:58 inevitable that the IWCA will end up being run like Red Action, namely being confrontational and antagonistic towards other groups on the left. Harold is keen to promote AFA as an IWCA pritorian
00:55:10 to promote AFA as an IWCA pritorian guard, which clearly will serve the interests of Red Action. So you seem to be describing in the earlier reports IWCA as a red action front and here
00:55:23 IWCA as a red action front and here you're describing a a chain red action to AFA to IWCA. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah. Why the change? I don't think there is a change. They're all the same. It's an umbrella
00:55:34 all the same. It's an umbrella organization. Um and that's what it looks exactly the same to me. I treat them as exactly the same. they are one and the same. It just allowed the IWCA
00:55:47 and the same. It just allowed the IWCA allowed more people who would not want to be involved with Red Action or maybe AFER even to give them a wider platform. Well, the significance being the IWCA was committed to democratic campaigning
00:56:00 was committed to democratic campaigning whereas you on your evidence red action is
00:56:04 is far more predisposed to violence. Yeah. In crude terms. Yeah. But you know Yes. They wanted to be sort of regarded as normal. Again, look at the model in
00:56:15 as normal. Again, look at the model in Northern Ireland. Exactly the same. Keen to promote Afer as an IWCA pritorian guard. First of all, Mr. Metaf's evidence was
00:56:26 First of all, Mr. Metaf's evidence was that by this stage uh June 1996, whatever its aspirations were, AFA did not have the capacity to do this. Do you agree?
00:56:37 agree? No. Could you explain why you disagree with Metaf? Uh he he wasn't trusted by Red Action. Um I never really found out what their fallout was. Uh and he
00:56:50 what their fallout was. Uh and he certainly wasn't. Uh although I noted early on that he'd been involved in AFA. As I got to know him, I thought there's no way that he has been effective in AFA
00:57:01 no way that he has been effective in AFA and he certainly wasn't trusted. I knew that from Red Action members. Um, so he was anti them anyway. He was anti being involved or the Colin Rose Center being involved with the IWCA. So yes, of
00:57:14 involved with the IWCA. So yes, of course his uh his memories are sort of prejuditial against anything to do with Ben action. I would suggest why does IWCA need a pritorian guard if
00:57:25 why does IWCA need a pritorian guard if the far right have been battered off the streets? A lot of AFA members joined AFA because they like beating up fascists. It's as simple as that. You
00:57:36 fascists. It's as simple as that. You don't want to alienate these people. You want to think they've still got some sort of uh job to do. And like I said earlier, the IWCA were taking that message to places where the left wouldn't normally go. You're looking at
00:57:48 wouldn't normally go. You're looking at places in Burmany and places like that which would the left would run a mile from because they were notoriously, you know, a hot bed of BNP activists in the
00:57:59 know, a hot bed of BNP activists in the past. So yes, they needed that uh a backbone of ready street fighters and keep them busy. Could we take that document down now and
00:58:10 Could we take that document down now and go to Suffach? Tab C50245736.
00:58:17 This is a report dated the 1st of December 1995. It's about uh the Saddak Council Labor Dispute. I'll ask first of all for
00:58:29 Dispute. I'll ask first of all for paragraph one to be expanded.
00:59:01 Okay.
00:59:05 So, this is an industrial dispute that you are reporting on. Yes. It's um a dispute between workers for Southern Council who are being moved
00:59:17 for Southern Council who are being moved uh into
00:59:20 uh into the uh direct labor organization and it is a dispute which is not being supported by the union UKAT
00:59:34 not being supported by the union UKAT because they had advised their members to accept the new conditions and transfer of employer something like it.
00:59:46 something like it. Uh SWP positively chased off
00:59:53 militant labor Frank Smith has merely put in an appearance. The picture appears to be that the far left uh is not really involved in this
01:00:06 left uh is not really involved in this dispute.
01:00:07 dispute. I think that's a fair assessment. I mean, Frank Smith, obviously, I think he was an actual building worker. Uh, but again, I mean, this the SWP, they were like flies, you know, they they turn up
01:00:18 like flies, you know, they they turn up at at anything and they just get in everyone's way. So, it doesn't surprise me they were chased up. So, the dispute is John Jones and Terry Mason who are not accepting the UKAT
01:00:30 Mason who are not accepting the UKAT advice um and are resisting transfer on the terms offered. Oo have been sacked.
01:00:41 the terms offered. Oo have been sacked. You were reporting on the other side of the union dispute, namely the union convenor Tony O'Brien describing him as despised by the sacked
01:00:54 describing him as despised by the sacked workers and their supporters. Is that fair?
01:00:57 fair? Yes.
01:00:59 Yes. If we go to paragraph two.
01:01:11 I'll let you read that.
01:01:44 In a nutshell, the workers having been abandoned by UKAT are now supported by the building workers group and they have some funding
01:01:55 workers group and they have some funding from the trade union unison. Yes. Yeah. And further reporting about Mr. O'Brien's role as the villain of the
01:02:06 O'Brien's role as the villain of the piece.
01:02:07 piece. Yeah. Yeah. If we then zoom out and before zooming back in again, I'd just like you to note the length of paragraph 1 and paragraph
01:02:18 the length of paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 in comparison to paragraph 3. Then can we have paragraph 3 up, please?
01:02:27 With unison backing and solid support, this dispute is set to run and run. Escalation is possible and sacked workers are considering a concerted attempt to disrupt the next full meeting of Soduk Council. No details of what
01:02:43 of Soduk Council. No details of what that disruption might look like. Did you have any idea what sort of disruption was being talked about? No, that was that would have come from either Metaf or the other person
01:02:56 either Metaf or the other person mentioned in that report. I'm not sure. I can use his name.
01:03:22 the person that was uh I was in the building workers group with I'm not sure whether his name's been redacted or not. Right. Do you want to write it down? Yeah, I'll just do the safe side.
01:04:03 Brian Higgins. Oh, okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Yes. Either himself. I got on with Brian very well. And the reason I I was taking when was
01:04:14 And the reason I I was taking when was this? December 95. I'd already been involved I think with the Republican forum. So it was important that I m maintain contact with Brian Higgins purely from that point of view. This was
01:04:26 purely from that point of view. This was secondary. Disruption uh in support of an industrial dispute can take many forms including ones which are entirely legal, can't it?
01:04:36 can't it? Absolutely. Yeah. You have put in a report which has very considerable detail about trade union activities
01:04:48 activities and um about the building workers group and then a mention of without any
01:04:59 and then a mention of without any particulars the possibility of disruption. Did you report this because of what you were able to say about the maneuverings
01:05:11 were able to say about the maneuverings between the different groups? I'm not sure I understand that question. The maneuverings between different leftwing groups between the building workers group, UKAT, and Unison.
01:05:23 UKAT, and Unison. Well, I reported it because it was brought to my attention and it was and it was I think on one of the the pickets they had down. I actually went down there with people from the building workers group. I don't think it
01:05:35 building workers group. I don't think it was anyone else from Colin Roach. I can't remember. So yes, it was something I had been directly involved in and reported it as I was told. Could you just expand upon why you
01:05:48 Could you just expand upon why you thought it necessary to report this? Well, because as I've stated the it was important for me to stay on side as it were with Brian Higgins. He was important through the Republican forum.
01:06:01 important through the Republican forum. So I couldn't just pick and choose when I'm invited. I originally got involved with the public Republican forum through my being a building worker. Uh and so I
01:06:12 my being a building worker. Uh and so I couldn't just pick and choose where I'd want to get involved with if Brian wanted me. You mean you're talking about a group of about two or three people here?
01:06:19 here? This is all lawful activity, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yeah. Trade union activity. trade union activity.
01:06:30 What did you think was going to be done with this intelligence? No idea. didn't didn't even occur to me what been I I was involved uh to the extent that I've just said and you know
01:06:42 extent that I've just said and you know for all I know they they it was worth nothing
01:06:45 nothing was one of the things uh that special branch did uh to track the involvement of people who agitated in industrial
01:06:56 of people who agitated in industrial disputes
01:06:57 disputes not to my knowledge no
01:07:01 can we take that down now tab C-512457 790.
01:07:16 This report dated 19th of December 1995 is about the CRC's affiliation to the East London AFA
01:07:28 to the East London AFA and you are on the face of this report nominated as a delegate in that relationship between the CRC and East
01:07:39 relationship between the CRC and East London AF. FA. Mhm.
01:07:42 Mhm. If you need to refresh your memory, do so.
01:07:46 so. But my first question is going to be how did you come to be so nominated? I think um because I think St. Metaf's
01:07:58 I think um because I think St. Metaf's idea of having some sort of anti-fascist uh element to this new party that he was trying to get off the ground that you know that be obviously I was put in that
01:08:09 know that be obviously I was put in that position um and I think Hedley was involved as well and the approach to
01:08:17 to uh AFA was actually made initially's behest because he knew people there uh and I was obviously co-opted into that as as that role as the anti-fascist
01:08:29 as as that role as the anti-fascist person at the Colin Road Center. How did that benefit your deployment? Uh very much. It accelerated it considerably in the direction I wanted it to go,
01:08:40 it to go, which was
01:08:41 which was to get into Red Action. What did it involve? What the
01:08:48 What the being the liaison between East London AFA and the CRC? Well, I think um initially I think we just we were the conduit between the two. I think it was
01:08:59 conduit between the two. I think it was a bit of a I remember that meeting. It was a bit of a tense meeting because obviously Metaf I think he was afraid of them actually the two individuals that came you know he wasn't he was
01:09:10 came you know he wasn't he was uncomfortable. Um why?
01:09:13 why? Well, they obviously had previous history. Um I as I said earlier I don't sure what that is but they I don't think they trusted him and I'm sure the feeling was was mutual. So he he tried
01:09:25 feeling was was mutual. So he he tried to stay right down the middle as respect to that but Headedley was quite keen if we were going to have an anti-fascist capability or an involvement uh that
01:09:36 capability or an involvement uh that really the only effective way to do that would be through an affiliation with AFA.
01:09:43 AFA. Did you support the affiliation? Yes, I did. Did you push for it? Say I push for it. I think we voted on it
01:09:51 it and I voted in favor of it. Did you uh advocate for it before the vote in any way? I can't remember if our opinions were
01:10:03 I can't remember if our opinions were canvased.
01:10:04 canvased. Um but if if if I would, I would have been in favor of it. Yeah. Was that because it was going to benefit your deployment? Yes. And I think if they were going to be serious from there was that side of
01:10:15 be serious from there was that side of it. But clearly if they wanted to have a credible established anti-fascist aspect to this organization, that was the only possible route they could go down in my
01:10:26 possible route they could go down in my opinion.
01:10:27 opinion. There came a time, didn't there, when the CRC also affiliated with the IW.CA. Yes, they did. Did you support that? I did. We vote on it. I can't. If we
01:10:38 I did. We vote on it. I can't. If we vote, if there was a vote on it, yes, I would have supported it. Um I can't I don't know what the timeline was in relation to that but uh yes I would have supported that but again Metaf was
01:10:49 supported that but again Metaf was reluctant because I think it was an element of jealousy there as well. They were progressing something which he wanted to aspire to but he was limited by the size of his position. And
01:11:00 by the size of his position. And why did you support affiliation with the the IWC
01:11:03 the IWC to red action? Can we take that document down now? Go to C57245835.
01:11:15 This is a report on Dr. Smith 12th of January 1996. And if we look at the text, please.
01:11:29 Graeme Smith has not joined the Colin Roach Cent's political group, Resistance, but has continued to follow his own agenda working within the
01:11:40 his own agenda working within the community against the police. Can you help us with why you understood Dr. Smith had not joined resistance?
01:11:52 resistance? I think or my impression of it was that he he liked it being the way it used to be before Metaf's influence really and
01:12:03 be before Metaf's influence really and Metaf was trying to change a a community organization with its many established community links into something which just appeared to be a bit more like a
01:12:15 just appeared to be a bit more like a political another left-wing party. I suspect that's why is another way of describing that is he was focused on his police accountability work
01:12:24 work by the looks of it. Yeah. Which you have described here again as within working within the community against the police. Yeah.
01:12:37 Yeah. I asked you a lot of questions this morning about that. Is this just an expression of the same feeling that assisting people with complaints against
01:12:50 assisting people with complaints against the police is anti police? It's against the police. Yeah.
01:12:56 Smith helps people with grievances against the police. And one grateful client presented him with a brand new motorcycle on winning some 70,000
01:13:07 motorcycle on winning some 70,000 compensation from the commissioner. Uh,
01:13:13 Uh, Dr. Smith says that's simply not true. Might you have been mistaken about that fact?
01:13:20 fact? No, but Metaf would have been because that's where I got it from. He was prone to exaggeration times, but there we are. And to be clear about winning some
01:13:31 And to be clear about winning some £70,000 from the commissioner, do we mean that either the commissioner has agreed to settle litigation in the sum of £70,000 or a court has ordered him to pay
01:13:43 or a court has ordered him to pay £70,000?
01:13:45 £70,000? I wrote that as it was described to me by Mr. Metaf by Mr. I can hear him say it now. Yeah.
01:13:56 If we look at at paragraph two, Smith is currently working on his PhD, the subject of which is policing in Stoke Newington. Once this is complete, he intends to establish a charitable
01:14:07 intends to establish a charitable foundation with friends in the legal profession which will focus on allegations of police crime and corruption. He firmly believes that the reputation of the HCDA is alive and well
01:14:19 reputation of the HCDA is alive and well and that it can be built on without any sort of left-wing or anarchist politics attached to it. Would you agree that if one wanted to
01:14:30 Would you agree that if one wanted to write a PhD on the subject of police crime and corruption, the Stoke Newington Police Station in the early 1990s is a good place as any?
01:14:41 1990s is a good place as any? I should imagine so. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Uh, and
01:14:46 Uh, and is it right uh that Dr. Smith was pursuing his interest in police accountability and addressing police crime and corruption in ways uh that
01:14:59 crime and corruption in ways uh that were absent any sort of left-wing or anarchist politics. That was my impression. But this again, this is all this that information came from Metaf directly, but I think that
01:15:10 from Metaf directly, but I think that was that would have been my spin on it. Yes.
01:15:13 Yes. So why are you reporting on Dr. Smith? Again, I'm hoovering up all the intelligence that I I was doing, whether or not it was relevant or that's not for me to say. Could have gone to the office
01:15:24 me to say. Could have gone to the office and they said, "Well, that doesn't matter anymore." It wasn't my concern. Any management reaction? What? To that particular report? Yeah.
01:15:32 Yeah. No.
01:15:34 No. To the question of reporting on Dr. Smith at all? No.
01:15:38 No. Can we take that down now, please? Tab C62 245891.
01:15:51 Uh this is a nominal performer dated the 30th of January 1996. It's about Mr. Steve Hedley from whom we have heard
01:16:03 Steve Hedley from whom we have heard evidence. At the bottom of that page, after the usual descriptors, it describes him as violent, strong Irish
01:16:15 describes him as violent, strong Irish accent.
01:16:16 accent. Can you help us with the basis for reporting that Mr. Hedley was violent? Well, I knew that he I What? What was the date of this? 30th. 30th of January, 96.
01:16:28 30th of January, 96. Um I I'd known that he'd been in physical confrontations. um that was well was spoken about in the in the Colin
01:16:39 was spoken about in the in the Colin Roach Center though I didn't witness that not at this stage myself anyway um and I don't know what the context of that was but he certainly was an intimidating person
01:16:51 intimidating person um well people found him intimidating at at the center intimidating and violent are two different things they are but he's he did have a violent reputation yeah
01:17:02 reputation yeah so if at this stage age you working purely on what you've heard about Mr. Hedley. Can you help us with what you had heard about specific acts of violence?
01:17:14 violence? There was uh I I think he'd been well obviously in Northern Ireland. Um but he'd been in I I thought it was some kind of anti-fascist confrontation
01:17:26 kind of anti-fascist confrontation way before I I knew him. Certainly Metaf was aware of that. Um but it was a you know a violent or propensity to to violence. I think it was you know I was
01:17:37 violence. I think it was you know I was I was convinced of that. Had you
01:17:41 Had you been told about any single specific instance
01:17:47 instance of Mr. Headley using violence? Uh if I had I can't remember them no.
01:17:56 Is this report then based upon your impression of him? Yes. And just to explore part of your answer a couple of questions ago, when I asked
01:18:09 a couple of questions ago, when I asked you about violence, you said he'd been in Northern Ireland. Why does being in Northern Ireland make one violent?
01:18:19 violent? He was been in violent situations where he was from that part of uh his very strong Republican area from the bogide. No. No. Well, I think his family might have been from
01:18:30 have been from Derry.
01:18:31 Derry. Yeah, he
01:18:33 Yeah, he part of London, Derry, sir, but there was he had family in the bogite, but he was from Shantalo in the northern part of the city.
01:18:45 Are you you were making an assumption that because he was an abrasive working man of large build with a strong Northern Irish accent who had been
01:18:57 Northern Irish accent who had been brought up in London Derry. He must have been involved in not just that. No, I mean there were there were other I think I can't even remember when he was he left Northern Ireland to come over to to London, but
01:19:09 Ireland to come over to to London, but he'd been
01:19:11 he'd been I'm sure he'd spoken in it might have been him or sort of met or he'd been in a confrontation with fascists before. In what context that was, I don't know, but
01:19:22 what context that was, I don't know, but that's gave me he he certainly had a propensity to to violence and and that had to be flagged up. Can we take that down? Tab C82246066.
01:19:40 This is another report about Mr. Headley 13th of March 1996. And if we go to the PEX paragraph, we
01:19:51 And if we go to the PEX paragraph, we see again described as violent, strong Irish accent to which has been added heavy drinker. And then if we uh have the text at the bottom of the page,
01:20:03 the text at the bottom of the page, give you a moment to read that.
01:20:18 Yeah. Did you witness this arrest? No.
01:20:22 No. And so what was the basis for reporting that Hedley was tempted to use violence against the arresting officer? And this is what Metoff's told me. I think Metaf was slightly afraid of him
01:20:34 I think Metaf was slightly afraid of him as well.
01:20:37 as well. Mr. Hedley uh has denied that when he was detained for fly posting before being released without charge using any violence or being tempted to use any
01:20:50 violence or being tempted to use any violence. Have you got any basis on which to gain say that? No idea. I wasn't there.
01:21:00 So we've looked at two reports about Mr. Headedley, which describe him in unflattering terms as a violent, heavy drinker.
01:21:13 drinker. Can I take it that Mr. Hedley's file might be used to inform police who had to deal with him and in particular if he was involved in
01:21:25 and in particular if he was involved in a
01:21:27 a public order, a demonstration with a risk of public disorder? I don't know because a lot of the those markers that are on that that's on a a special bant report violent markers in particular
01:21:39 report violent markers in particular would be put on a PNC file which obviously is accessible by any police officer. What the crossover is between that type of reporting and somebody
01:21:50 that type of reporting and somebody being put on a police national computer? I I didn't know there was one. I wasn't thinking about the police national computer. I was thinking about the sort of reports which TO20 prepared
01:22:01 the sort of reports which TO20 prepared for uniform police when there were demonstrations in the offing. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. someone has what is a risk of being uh violent or a propensity to violence absolutely right
01:22:13 propensity to violence absolutely right they needed to know that and that might sorry no no sorry and how they make that ass a risk assessment using that particular I don't know but yes I think that's that is a relevant uh
01:22:25 is a relevant uh and so that could lead to uniform police on the day keeping a special eye out for him
01:22:31 him well I don't know about that I'm not that's out of my uh agreement. Could we take that down now please? From tab B25 527328.
01:22:46 Uh page two, please. This is about the assistant commissioner special operations David Vanessa's visit to the SDS on the 15th of February 1996.
01:23:04 Do you recall that visit? I do. Yeah. Could we go to page six, please?
01:23:13 There is a summary on that page at the top of the page of your deployment. If we could have that expanded, please.
01:23:24 This is a gist. Um but it records the groups that you were involved with as being HCDA, Colin Roach Center, IWCA
01:23:35 being HCDA, Colin Roach Center, IWCA and uh Sundry Anarchist groupings. We have seen plenty of reporting on the HCDA, the CRC resistance and the IWCA
01:23:47 HCDA, the CRC resistance and the IWCA in investigating your deployment, Mr. Jenner. But what is the basis for the s sunundry anarchist groupings? Can you explain who they are? No, I can't quite honestly. I put it in
01:23:58 No, I can't quite honestly. I put it in the same This looks like a cut and paste thing from one of Bob's repertoars with the HCDA anarchist, you know, crops up. There weren't any. While maintaining an inside view of all
01:24:10 While maintaining an inside view of all public order events in the Hackne area, the officer has unique access to a range of anti- police campaigns in London. commenced operations
01:24:22 commenced operations February 1995.
01:24:26 And does that accurately reflect what you were doing? It's well, I say I didn't write it. No, I didn't. I had access to a lot of things, not just the anti- police
01:24:38 things, not just the anti- police campaigns. But no, that's a an overstatement and a generalization. Uh the reference to anti- police campaigns is being made in the context
01:24:50 campaigns is being made in the context of a summary for a very senior officer coming to visit the unit. Uh did you get the impression that your managers were seeking to trumpet the access that you
01:25:02 seeking to trumpet the access that you had to a range of anti- police campaigns to the ACSO? What was the what was the date of this again? You know me? 15th of February 96.
01:25:15 Yeah, I think so. I think that was part of the internal politics is you want to make your uh your charges uh look as important and as having much influence
01:25:26 important and as having much influence as possible. That's a natural enough thing to to do. uh and the atmosphere is such that trumpeting access to a wide range of anti- police campaigns is
01:25:37 range of anti- police campaigns is something that is likely to find favor with the ACSO in the opinion of I would imagine so. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
01:25:45 course. Could we take that down now please? At tab C67245928.
01:25:58 We're now into March uh 1996 and we're back to the Trevor Monavville campaign.
01:26:09 campaign. Now, the march and rally in memory of uh Trevor, due to be held on the 16th of March, 1996
01:26:20 March, 1996 in Stoke, Newington, to which 50 or 100 people were likely to attend, but where disorder is recorded as being unlikely. Could we have the text expanded, please?
01:27:05 Okay.
01:27:08 There was considerable concern about Mr. Monavville's treatment by police in Stoke Newington, but he met his death after being knifed
01:27:20 but he met his death after being knifed to death. Uh, and so it he did not die directly as a result of the police. Did you know that at the time?
01:27:31 Did you know that at the time? No.
01:27:35 How much contact did you have with the Trevor Monavville campaign during the first year of your deployment? Uh, none other than what I was I I I
01:27:46 Uh, none other than what I was I I I don't recall even going to this thing. Again, this is a a thing that Metcov dealt with exclusively and the any information related to that would have been based on what he told me.
01:27:58 been based on what he told me. Did you have any direct contract with Trevor's family? No, not not that I recall. No, I wouldn't need to. This was always the sort of event that
01:28:09 This was always the sort of event that was going to be a peaceful and dignified affair, wasn't it? As far as I could assess. Yeah. Was it really of any value to report that
01:28:20 it really of any value to report that disorder was unlikely? Well, that's a standard question in any sort of public order type thing. You know, give your assessment on that. Uh, and of course, it is unlikely. You can
01:28:31 and of course, it is unlikely. You can never say never. And that's not pointing the finger at the the people involved. Do I take from that answer that whatever you might think of the merits of the question, you were doing what you were
01:28:42 question, you were doing what you were expected to do? Absolutely. Yeah. Did you attend this event? I don't think I did. No.
01:28:52 And this is a campaign that would be considered anti- police. Um and in in light of the fact it's going to happen outside of was it
01:29:03 going to happen outside of was it happening outside of Stoke Newington or it's a Stoke Newington police thing? Yes. In that general sort of uh term it would be. Yeah. Can we take that down now please? Could we have from tab C68245929?
01:29:24 This is a report dated at the bottom the 13th of February 1996 well in advance of uh the event reported on 20th of April
01:29:37 uh the event reported on 20th of April 1996.
01:29:39 1996. Uh it is about a proposed march which is said to be being organized by the CRC and Cersa.
01:29:51 Could we go please to the first paragraph?
01:29:57 Plans are being made to stage a demonstration in Hackne or in the Islington Holloway area on the 20th of April to focus attention on the 80th anniversary of the Easter uprising in
01:30:11 anniversary of the Easter uprising in Ireland and on the plight of Republican prisoners. The cases of prisoners detained in the area, for example, Hayes and Taylor, will be given prominence. It
01:30:22 and Taylor, will be given prominence. It is hoped that Republican bands will take part and that prominent Republican speakers will attend. There will be a planning meeting on the 20th of February. This matter was discussed
01:30:34 February. This matter was discussed after the Pyra bomb blast on the 9th of February.
01:30:40 February. First of all, the Easter uprising, a toemic event for Irish Republicans. Indeed. Yeah. the cases of prisoners detained in the
01:30:52 the cases of prisoners detained in the area.
01:30:54 area. Pat Hayes, Jan Taylor, they the gentleman you were referring to earlier as having been convicted of terrorist offenses and sentenced to life
01:31:05 offenses and sentenced to life imprisonment. Uh, one of them, Hayes. Hayes.
01:31:09 Hayes. Yeah.
01:31:11 Yeah. And Mr. Taylor, can you help us with him?
01:31:13 him? Didn't know anything about him, his background. uh
01:31:19 uh the Pyra bomb blast on the 9th of February, that is to say 4 days before the date of this uh report.
01:31:30 the date of this uh report. Is that a reference to the large bomb that was detonated on South K on the aisle of dogs, killing two people and
01:31:41 aisle of dogs, killing two people and injuring more than 100? Yes.
01:31:44 Yes. and causing very considerable economic damage.
01:31:48 damage. Yes.
01:31:49 Yes. What was the reaction at the Colin Roach Center to that attack?
01:31:56 Some of the individuals that I spoke to were quite excited by it. Excited in what way? Oh, you know, because again,
01:32:07 Oh, you know, because again, very sort of secondary. They love all the sort of revolutionary stuff and here they always, you know, it's all kicking off again and that sort of sort of pure excitement I would describe as not
01:32:18 excitement I would describe as not everybody but certain individuals. Yeah. Celebrating the murder of two human beings.
01:32:24 beings. Allison for example thought it was quite an exciting development.
01:32:30 What was the reaction of Cersa? I didn't have any contact with Cersei directly. I think they they obviously were involved um or communicating to the
01:32:42 were involved um or communicating to the Colin Roach Center, but that would have been through Metaf himself.
01:32:50 Can I take it that the reaction was certainly not sufficient to stop planning for what at that stage was going to be a march? No. No, not at all. As far as I was
01:33:01 No. No, not at all. As far as I was aware, no. Were you at the planning meeting uh for the march? No, because this is this was a cert event as I understood it. So I think I think
01:33:14 as I understood it. So I think I think the Colin Roach's position would be to publicize it obviously and to get people to go down and join in as appropriate. And can we go to the next paragraph
01:33:25 And can we go to the next paragraph please?
01:33:30 SDS comment. 20th of April is Hitler's birthday and it is said that a big blood and honor gig in London is being planned for that day. Furthermore, it is reported that the extreme right will be
01:33:42 reported that the extreme right will be seeking a confrontation and that the redirection andor venue for the gig will be leaked beforehand. Obviously, especially in the wake of the Pyra bomb, any publicized Republican
01:33:55 Pyra bomb, any publicized Republican event could become the focus for extreme right
01:34:00 right anger. Just hold that information for the moment and can we take this document down and go to tab 84 245085.
01:34:14 This is moving on now to the 23rd of May at 19 95. And if we could
01:34:26 I think that's must be a wrong reference. I want um a document u about the further planning for the the benefits. Now I I see sir we're coming
01:34:37 benefits. Now I I see sir we're coming up to 3. Would that be a a moment to take the break to find your place? Certainly. Of course. Um is 10 minutes enough? We'll break for 10 minutes.
01:49:47 Thank you sir. Um the correct reference is 246085.
01:49:53 This is a report of the 19th of March 1996.
01:49:58 1996. If we could have paragraph one expanded first please. Following the decision by Shin Fain not to support a demonstration to mark the
01:50:11 to support a demonstration to mark the 80th anniversary of the Easter uprising through the streets of Hackne and Islington on the 20th of April. Organizers at the Colin Roach Center are determined to go ahead with a benefit night on Friday the 19th of April.
01:50:25 night on Friday the 19th of April. Proceeds from this will be donated to the Cersia campaign. So it would appear that the plan for a march was replaced by a plan for a
01:50:37 march was replaced by a plan for a benefits
01:50:39 benefits a fundraising event. Is that right? I I can't remember. Yeah. Reading that. Yes, it would have been right. And that the reason for the change in approach was not the conflict with the
01:50:50 approach was not the conflict with the blood and honor event, but was because Shinfeane did not support the demonstration. I can't remember the exact reason for
01:51:02 I can't remember the exact reason for that. No.
01:51:07 Can we go to paragraph two, please?
01:51:17 Should Metaf pull off this coup, it will show other groups on the left, particularly Red Action, which is supporting the benefit event, that the CRC has an active Irish political agenda. No other left-wing group has
01:51:30 agenda. No other left-wing group has plans to mark this important anniversary. Metaf regards the fact that Macski has had links with Republican Shinfane as an added bonus as far as his credentials and those of his group are
01:51:42 credentials and those of his group are concerned. The reference to Ms. Macalliski being that she was a potential speaker. Yes.
01:51:48 Yes. At this event. So this is your assessment is it of what Metaf is trying to do? Yes, it is.
01:51:59 Metaf is trying to do? Yes, it is. And what was it based on? Uh, I think as I touched on earlier, Metaf was
01:52:06 Metaf was he didn't like Red Action. I think it was his attempt to uh show them that he he too had the uh the political credentials and contacts to organize an
01:52:18 credentials and contacts to organize an event uh in spite of them. I think it was just oneupmanship on his part. And I think up to that point I didn't realize that he had allegedly these links to
01:52:30 that he had allegedly these links to Northern Ireland. Uh Mary Nellis I think was one.
01:52:34 was one. Do you have any doubts uh about the sincerity of Mr. Metaf's commitment to United Island? No, I don't I don't have any doubts about that. No.
01:52:45 about that. No. Could we take that document down now please and have our volume two tab C 100.
01:52:59 It's 246192. Thank you. Uh this is the report of the fundraising event itself. Uh if we could expand the text please.
01:53:16 records that some 70 people attended um with from political groups with Irish Republican links for example red action £320 is raised and this is presented to
01:53:31 £320 is raised and this is presented to Peter Middleton acting on behalf of the prisoners. Middleton ex is said to have explained to the audience that the Cersa campaign had been replaced by a new organization
01:53:42 had been replaced by a new organization um under the name of Fuchalt which means liberation and then it goes on to talk about the raffle prizes that had helped to raise this money. Were you present at
01:53:53 to raise this money. Were you present at this event? Yes, I was. And it was your understanding was it that the money was going to support Irish Republican prisoners? Yes.
01:54:05 During your deployment, did you ever obtain any intelligence about any active terrorist planning?
01:54:17 about any active terrorist planning? No.
01:54:19 No. Did you at any time during your deployment obtain any intelligence about any potential future terrorist activity? No.
01:54:31 No. Did you obtain any intelligence relevant to details of past unsolved terrorist offenses?
01:54:44 Not until I'd left. Not Not
01:54:49 Not Not Not until I'd left SDS. Not on Not as an SDS. Not as an SDS officer. No. No. Did you
01:54:57 Did you provide any intelligence or come across any information about any physical or material support for the
01:55:08 physical or material support for the Commission of Terrorist Offending, past or present? No.
01:55:13 No. Did you identify any members of prescribed terrorist organizations on the mainland? Yes.
01:55:23 Yes. Could you write down who? I have already mentioned them. Write them down.
01:55:43 Christ, I'm trying to think of his name. It was it was the same person that was at the public meeting in uh that I went to
01:55:51 to when the IRSP came across to the Republican forum meeting. Yes, that's it. Yeah, he was one of the attendees from there. That's one of the speakers. Yes, he was. Yeah.
01:56:02 Yes, he was. Yeah. So, at that stage, not exactly hiding away.
01:56:05 away. No, he wasn't. No. Okay.
01:56:07 Okay. Well, not not in the sense that you're inferring. He was hide. He's certainly having arrest from uh life at the sharp end in Northern Ireland. Yeah. Anybody else?
01:56:18 Anybody else? Not that I can recall though. Did you uh identify or report upon any fundraising other than that which was stated to be for
01:56:30 than that which was stated to be for prisoners?
01:56:33 No, I think all the fundraising that I saw would be prisoner or prisoner support group related. So So what intelligence did you obtain that
01:56:44 So what intelligence did you obtain that was of relevance to the fight against Irish Republican terrorism? Well, it's it's not a question of direct uh intelligence. It was it were going
01:56:56 uh intelligence. It was it were going into the sort of the red action uh movement for me given the their activity of their members as we've already mentioned it was and at that
01:57:07 already mentioned it was and at that stage where we'd had the the peace process had broken down um they were more there was uncertainty around it and there was certainly on the in the wider
01:57:18 there was certainly on the in the wider uh field
01:57:20 uh field pyra members in Northern Ireland land. Some of them weren't accepting the peace process. That was that was common knowledge and there was an attempt to recruit them as as I learned secondhand
01:57:33 recruit them as as I learned secondhand to the dissident Republican side of things. But at that time in the mid '90s, nobody really knew what that what those defections were and how that would filter down onto the mainland. My
01:57:48 filter down onto the mainland. My specific role in that respect would be to merely be in the orbit where in an organization like Red Action to pick up any indicators that there were people
01:58:01 any indicators that there were people bearing in mind they had members from both factions of not just Pyro but also in LA in their membership ranks who' done time there. I just needed to be in that or orbit to pick up any intelligence which would indicate
01:58:13 intelligence which would indicate whether there were defection. There was some sort of uh possibility of those things being picked up and used on the mainland as they had done previously.
01:58:26 You've talked about possibilities. Did you actually obtain any such intelligence with in hindsight? All I could at that
01:58:39 with in hindsight? All I could at that time it's difficult to evaluate that intelligence that was my role purely keep an eye on these people and more or less and also the sort the peripheral members so we talk about Republican
01:58:51 members so we talk about Republican forum which is obviously dissident support but they a lot of the people there were generally sort of mainstream politicos but they did attract other persons um on the fringes of that who
01:59:03 persons um on the fringes of that who may become interested in developing it on a much more direct stance, but nobody knew at that stage exactly what it was. The security services were unsighted on
01:59:14 The security services were unsighted on all of that. And I think really the state certainly special branch uh were wrongfooted when that device went off at uh Canary Warf and suddenly all bets
01:59:25 uh Canary Warf and suddenly all bets were on, you know. Sorry. In terms of a yes no answer to that to the question, did you actually obtain any intelligence which went to that the
01:59:39 any intelligence which went to that the question defections within the groups? Is the answer no? No. No.
01:59:46 Does it come to this that the high point of the intelligence that you gathered uh was the identity of people who sympathized with the proposition that
01:59:57 sympathized with the proposition that the peace process was a bad idea and supported the continuation of the arms struggle.
02:00:03 struggle. Well, I was involved in that. You know, you naturally gravitate towards those people. I can't just or I wasn't in a position just to um become a member of
02:00:14 position just to um become a member of Red Action and expect to be trusted on that particular thing. I had to move in a wider spectrum of all the Irish Republican support groups that were around at that time. That was all it
02:00:25 around at that time. That was all it was. And you say that's the high point. Well, that was the position I needed to be.
02:00:30 be. And being, as you say, in a position where you might have come across intelligence. Absolutely. Can we take that document down now
02:00:41 Can we take that document down now please? And can we go to tab C75245996
02:00:49 different territory now the first public meeting of the socialist labor party 21st of February 1996.
02:01:00 21st of February 1996. Um if we expand the text I'll give you a moment to familiarize yourself with the document. Um, I'm interested in paragraphs one and two.
02:01:32 Okay. Were you at this meeting? Uh yes, it was.
02:01:38 was. You refer about halfway down the first paragraph to the speakers being Bob Crowe of the RMT, Brenda Nixon, the
02:01:49 Crowe of the RMT, Brenda Nixon, the unsuccessful SLP candidate in the recent Hemsworth bi-election and Imran Khn brackets solicitor for the family of Steven Lawrence. Close brackets.
02:02:02 Steven Lawrence. Close brackets. Why did you refer to Imran Khn as a solicitor for the family of Steven Lawrence?
02:02:10 Lawrence? Because that's either he introduced himself or I think these were speakers on the stage and that's what he would have been introduced as.
02:02:21 have been introduced as. Did you know Mr. K to be the solicitor for the family of Steven Lawrence? Never heard of him to that point. even in connection with the longunning
02:02:34 even in connection with the longunning by then long-running Steven Lawrence campaign.
02:02:38 campaign. No, I mean I think I may have heard him on the news or something like that, but that was that would have been all but it didn't ring any particular bells to me. No,
02:02:44 No, he had a very prominent role. Not in my world in the campaign. No, that's I don't doubt it.
02:02:55 Are you sure this is not a reflection of the importance of that role to the Metropolitan Police Service? Absolutely not. No, I mean that the whole that campaign was mentioned um you
02:03:08 whole that campaign was mentioned um you know in the sense because it was it was such a high-profile thing. Yes. And his name might have been uh mentioned but it meant nothing to me. I mean I had no interest in that particular campaign.
02:03:19 interest in that particular campaign. Could we have the second paragraph please?
02:03:48 Okay. So, first of all, uh the position on the political spectrum of the Socialist Labor Party. Uh I'm taking that
02:04:01 Labor Party. Uh I'm taking that description uh to mean that it is seeking to occupy the territory recently vacated by old labor. Yeah,
02:04:12 vacated by old labor. Yeah, very recently vacated following um the abandonment of clause 4. And whatever it was, it was against and certainly a flip side to new labor of
02:04:24 certainly a flip side to new labor of the Tony Blair. Put another way, the same political territory as the official opposition in Parliament and on and off the ruling
02:04:36 Parliament and on and off the ruling party during the 1960s and the 1970s. Yeah, I think that's what they wanted to return to that sort of environment. Yeah.
02:04:45 Yeah. Was it thought that that aspiration was subversive? No idea. I went along to this meeting and it was, you know, it was just another left-wing group. I don't even
02:04:57 another left-wing group. I don't even know why I went there. I think it I imagine it Steve Hedley knew Bob Crowe and we went along, but I didn't really give it an awful lot of thought into the ins and outs of it. It was certainly
02:05:08 ins and outs of it. It was certainly nothing that was uh of interest to me personally. And again, I reported on this because I was there and what they did with it subsequently is intelligence. I have no idea.
02:05:20 intelligence. I have no idea. No threat to public order at that particular meeting, the Socialist Labor Party. Oh, their manifesto. Well, no, of course not. They're the the best thing in the world. That was the whole point of that meeting was to gather as much support as
02:05:33 meeting was to gather as much support as they could from as many people as they could.
02:05:36 could. I think you said at some point in an answer that you essentially reported this because you were there. That's right. And you went there because you were with Headedley and Metcov. Yeah.
02:05:49 Did either you or any of your managers stop to consider for a moment that you are reporting on the entirely legitimate political activities of a political
02:06:00 political activities of a political party. uh that was um simply uh a left-wing party. No.
02:06:10 The second part of that paragraph, Imran Khn expounded the virtues of the SLP's anti-racism policy, likening its enthusiasm to that of the Anti-Racist
02:06:22 enthusiasm to that of the Anti-Racist Alliance and the Anti-Nazi League. Pleasing those members of the SWP were in the audience. Kahn stated that the success of direct action taken by such organizations, citing the campaign
02:06:34 organizations, citing the campaign against the BNP headquarters in Welling as an example, should act as a model for the SLP in its intention to provide a presence at all parliamentary and extra
02:06:46 presence at all parliamentary and extra parliamentary activities. The BNP headquarters in Welling was closed down as a result of a very longunning campaign, wasn't it? Yeah, it was him.
02:07:01 Everything that you're reporting Mr. Khn saying here as a speaker at this SLP event is entirely legitimate political
02:07:13 event is entirely legitimate political expression, isn't it? Yes. I was I was reporting what he said and that's what he said. On a very important social issue.
02:07:24 On a very important social issue. Well, clearly it was important to him. Yeah. Was
02:07:28 Yeah. Was anti-racism important to you? Well, to me personally or the organization, to you personally? Well, of course it is. Yeah. But, you know, there were other people in the
02:07:39 know, there were other people in the organization probably in the SDS who were best uh you know, I didn't know anything really much about the anti-Nazi league other than what was in the and what other officing.
02:07:55 Why did you say important to him then in answer to my question about it being a pressing social issue? Well, because it clearly was important to him.
02:08:06 to him. Could we take that down now, please? Could we have tab 83 246068?
02:08:17 Uh this is a report on an individual. Um, and if we once you've absorbed the normal descriptors, if we can go to the two paragraphs of text at the bottom
02:08:33 and it runs slightly over leaf as well.
02:09:11 First matter that I'm interested in I want to ask you about is the reporting on the construction of homemade smoke bombs. Can you help us with what the source of your intelligence was here?
02:09:25 source of your intelligence was here? I I don't know. Is there a name for this person? I can't I don't remember this report.
02:09:31 report. If we haven't got one to hand, we will get one and I can come back uh to this um uh report. We'll do that. Can we take that down now, please?
02:09:44 Can we take that down now, please? And can we go to tab C87
02:09:48 246090?
02:09:58 This is now moving on to the Ibraham say campaign uh tab sorry this is 23rd of March 1996
02:10:10 uh tab sorry this is 23rd of March 1996 and it's um about a protest a picket followed by a march to Ilford police station 23rd of March 1919 96.
02:10:24 station 23rd of March 1919 96. At this stage, it's uh planning. The report is about uh a meeting on the 20th of March uh to plan.
02:10:35 of March uh to plan. I'll let you have a look. I think first of all it would be worthwhile you looking in detail at the first paragraph.
02:11:25 Okay. So, this is about a death in police custody in which CS Gas was involved. Oh, okay.
02:11:33 Oh, okay. Were you at the meeting?
02:11:38 I can't remember, but certainly I I No, I honestly can't remember if I was at that meeting, but there was a lot of detail there. I met would have been it could have been that I just um
02:11:50 it could have been that I just um written on the back of what he reported to me but I can't remember whether I was actually at the meeting or not.
02:11:59 Did you ever meet any of Mr. S's family? No, not knowingly. Could we have a look at the next paragraph please?
02:12:15 Let you read that.
02:12:48 Okay.
02:12:52 You are here reporting on a black justice campaign at its very inception, aren't you? Yes, it looks like it. Yeah.
02:13:04 Yes, it looks like it. Yeah. And you are reporting the involvement and positions of various left-wing and campaigning groups. Yes.
02:13:16 Yes. And would this be regarded as an anti- police campaign?
02:13:23 Um, I don't know. A campaign. It was a police invol that involved police officers. So, yes. I mean, I can see where that question going to, but yes, it would be anti police in as much
02:13:35 yes, it would be anti police in as much there were police. It was um a police offense that was being protested against there. So, in a generic sense, it would have been Yeah. Exactly. What did you ex understand you
02:13:47 Exactly. What did you ex understand you were expected to do reporting on the inception of a black justice campaign? What was I expected to do? What from SDS point of view? What was the intelligence
02:13:59 point of view? What was the intelligence requirement? Just report on what you hear. Um, and that's what I did. Again, this would have been in conversation with Metaf. There's a lot of detail here. And he
02:14:11 There's a lot of detail here. And he used to, you know, relay all of this stuff that he was up to or speaking to in me in the pub or whatever and and tell me about it. But that's all it was. Again, it was just hoovering up the
02:14:23 Again, it was just hoovering up the information that I was given uh and putting it into a report such as that. If we go back up to the first paragraph, please.
02:14:30 please. Yeah.
02:14:34 And towards the end of that, the last sentence, it is apparent that the NMP have the ear of the victim's family and intend the above event behind which it
02:14:46 intend the above event behind which it is putting all its resources to exploit the use of CS gas to the full in the knowledge that maximum media attention is guaranteed.
02:14:59 is guaranteed. Could you help us with why you are using the word exploit? Um
02:15:09 Um I was a bit I read this the CS gas was that was used in the original offense was it by the police or I can't remember what that the context of the use of CS gas was.
02:15:21 gas was. Mr. S dies in police custody whilst under restraint. I'm afraid you have to give the evidence and I have to ask the question. You have
02:15:32 and I have to ask the question. You have reported
02:15:34 reported that there was use of CS gas, right? Okay. Well, that's yeah, that's I would have heard that, but I I can't remember what the context of that was. I'm assuming that was it was used by the police and as a result of that um Mr.
02:15:47 police and as a result of that um Mr. Say died in in police custody. I'm assuming that's what happened. I can't remember.
02:15:52 remember. And so why are you saying exploiting the use of CS gas to the full? because it was an issue that's obviously, you know, it's a bit like a like a shooting thing. It's immediately grabs public attention
02:16:05 It's immediately grabs public attention and and public sympathy. That's all that was.
02:16:08 was. So, are you suggesting that this is being used to maximize a political opportunity? Well, I would say political opportunity, it's a publicity, certainly.
02:16:19 it's a publicity, certainly. Would
02:16:22 Would you accept the sincerity of the NMP's desire uh to prevent deaths in custody? Of course. Yeah. And that was an entirely legitimate
02:16:33 And that was an entirely legitimate concern.
02:16:34 concern. Yes. I I wouldn't contest that at all. No.
02:16:37 No. But was it in fact your view at the time uh that they were in simply seeking to exploit Mr. Se's deaths for their own purposes?
02:16:48 purposes? It wasn't my view. that would have been uh an opinion probably not quite so pointed as that in terms of metaf because there was always a I mean it sounds really cherish but there's a
02:16:59 sounds really cherish but there's a competitive instinct about who was the you know which group was better equipped to represent uh families um in this case in death in police custody. So there was
02:17:11 in death in police custody. So there was an edge of that but as I said earlier you know metaf is prone or was prone exaggeration. So yeah I'd use that as a caveat. Um but yes exploit but which is
02:17:22 caveat. Um but yes exploit but which is basically what it boiled down to also consistent with evidence you've given earlier today uh that it was essentially the SDS and special branch view that these campaigns were
02:17:34 view that these campaigns were exploited. Yes.
02:17:40 Can we go back to the second paragraph, please?
02:17:48 The middle of the paragraph. Following the inquiries, Graeme Smith made of Burnberg solicitors and Debbie Kohl's made of inquest. The general feeling at the CRC is that the
02:18:01 general feeling at the CRC is that the campaign will be a difficult one to uh coordinate. How do you know what inquiries Mr. Smith, Dr. Smith made of Bernbergs?
02:18:12 Smith, Dr. Smith made of Bernbergs? I well I don't I I don't know the specifics of all of that, but this would have been in a probably like a wash up Colin wrote center meeting where um the
02:18:23 Colin wrote center meeting where um the usual business was that Metco would stand up and he tell the membership what they've been doing and the ins and outs of it. So it was on the back of that really. I can't put it into any specific
02:18:34 really. I can't put it into any specific context. Can we take it from what we know of Dr. Graeme Smith's um activities that his purpose in contacting a highly regarded firm of human rights solicitors
02:18:46 regarded firm of human rights solicitors uh would have been to explore legal avenues of redress. Oh, very possibly. Yes, that would be his mo. Yeah.
02:18:57 his mo. Yeah. And Debbie Coohl's of Inquest. Inquest being a group that supports bereieved at inquests.
02:19:04 inquests. uh that thought is being given to the inevitable inquest. I think so. I think she was a personal friend of Metaf, so he had a better
02:19:15 friend of Metaf, so he had a better insight into that. I It wasn't something I was particularly well cited on and that being an important part of the
02:19:26 and that being an important part of the coronial response to the death entirely legitimate. Well, it would appear so. Yes. So I was just report reporting what I'd heard.
02:19:37 just report reporting what I'd heard. Why was the general feeling that the campaign would be difficult to coordinate? Well, again, I I as I said earlier, I think a it was not within the sort of
02:19:49 think a it was not within the sort of obvious catchment area of the CRC. Um, and
02:19:54 and so Metaf didn't have the influence that he would have liked to have done. That was my interpretation of it. So yes, from his point of view, the CRC wouldn't
02:20:05 from his point of view, the CRC wouldn't have got a look in really. What was your view of inquest? I didn't really have a view of them. I'd never heard of him until I'd been out in uh and I did I think she addressed a
02:20:17 uh and I did I think she addressed a meeting. Debbie Cole's addressed a meeting um explaining what she did to a Colin Road center uh meeting, but I can't remember all of that. I'd never heard of them prior to that.
02:20:29 heard of them prior to that. Can we look at the last sentence now? Notwithstanding this, the NMP is putting every effort into attracting a large number of people to the above event, even suggesting that the recent
02:20:40 even suggesting that the recent unrelated assault on the three police officers in Forest Gate has heightened tension in the area in the belief that such a ploy might attract the unpredictable presence of black youth
02:20:52 unpredictable presence of black youth onto the streets this weekend. What was the basis for describing NMP's actions in the way that you do there?
02:21:05 actions in the way that you do there? Uh
02:21:09 I think in the I I can't remember making this this comment, but in the context of the the rest of that report um again we we spoke earlier about
02:21:20 um again we we spoke earlier about exploiting opportunities. Well, I I can't remember this. assault on three police officers. But yes, certainly that had a heightening of tensions and of course it would make the NMP's
02:21:34 course it would make the NMP's um profile as the guardians of the local community that much sharper in my opinion. So I'm right to interpret this as you're
02:21:45 I'm right to interpret this as you're reporting the NMP as stoking the temperature. Not at all. No, I don't think heightened tension. Yeah, he heightened tension. That's different from uh stoking the
02:21:57 That's different from uh stoking the temp the uh the political tension in the area.
02:22:02 area. You're portraying NMP as take as making undertaking deliberate actions to heighten tension in the area.
02:22:11 Um no, it said I it had the result of heightening tensions in the area. Um but of course that was all within their remit anyway not to stoke up tensions
02:22:24 remit anyway not to stoke up tensions but if there were issues there which could they could go on a support from then of course they were going to do that wouldn't say that they were deliberately stoking up tensions in the area with their actions at all.
02:22:35 area with their actions at all. They describe it as a ploy which might attract the unpredictable pleasants of black youth on the to the streets this weekend.
02:22:41 weekend. Yeah, that was my opinion.
02:22:45 is the reality that the NMP wanted a properly stewarded and orderly demonstration. Undoubtedly, I think most of the ones
02:22:56 Undoubtedly, I think most of the ones that I'd sort of been these groups have been aware always want an orderly demonstration. Yeah. And with the phrase unpredictable presence of black youth, are we back into the realms of stereotyping young
02:23:08 into the realms of stereotyping young black people? Well, I think as this again this particular offense a bit like the Brian Douglas issue, it was it was made a racial issue because of the the color of the victim and the effects of
02:23:21 color of the victim and the effects of white police police officers involved in it.
02:23:24 it. They're being described here as unpredictable. Yeah. The their their motivations and their actions potentially unpredictable. Yes, I stand by that.
02:23:35 Yes, I stand by that. Can we take um that document down now please and have up from tab B90747764.
02:23:53 This is the report on the march itself. uh report reported as having been advertised tense and hostile but without disorder. 300 to 350 people attended. It
02:24:08 disorder. 300 to 350 people attended. It took place on the afternoon of Saturday the 23rd of March. Were you present on that march? I again I can't remember. I honestly can't remember if I was or not.
02:24:21 Can you So can you not help us at all with events on the day? Can I just have a read through? Yes.
02:24:26 Yes. If it will help jog your memory, please do.
02:24:34 If we could expand the text for the witness, please.
02:25:12 Yeah, I mean it's written as if I was there. So there Yeah, I'm I'm not trying to say I wasn't, but I can't remember it. So it looks like I probably was there with the amount of detail that's gone into that report.
02:25:23 gone into that report. Okay. Well, I'll I'll tailor my questions to the lack of recollection of the actual events. Why did you uh report the race of those attending?
02:25:35 Because that's what that's what they were. I just did. What's the significance of that? No significance. The fourth paragraph suggests that this event was in fact uh well stewarded. Uh
02:25:49 event was in fact uh well stewarded. Uh was that your experience of the NMP? Well, as far as I remember, yeah, there was no violence. So that would suggest that it was well stewarded. I accept that. Yeah.
02:26:00 that. Yeah. If we go over the page to page two, paragraph three.
02:26:13 If you uh just familiarize yourself with that.
02:26:30 Okay. It appears the picture you're portraying is that Mr. S's family were perfectly capable of standing up for themselves to
02:26:43 capable of standing up for themselves to attempts by left-wing groups to influence them. Yes. And yeah, that's fair to say. If we take that down now please and have tab C13246694.
02:26:59 We're now moving from March 96 to October 96 months after the death of Mr. SE.
02:27:07 SE. Uh and this is a prospective report on an event being planned for the 16th of October. It's a picket. And if we look
02:27:18 October. It's a picket. And if we look at the text, please
02:27:24 give you a moment to read that.
02:27:40 Yeah. Okay. You use the phrase uh support that the support the demo received from the local black community when say died in March
02:27:53 black community when say died in March will have lost much of its impetus and venom over the intervening months. Venom means extreme malice or
02:28:04 Venom means extreme malice or bitterness. Why did you choose that word in relation to the local black community? Well, because I think it was the venom. I don't know why I use that word, but it
02:28:15 don't know why I use that word, but it was um it was the the feeling um you know the impetus. It lost its sort of impetus. Whether that's the passage of of time as I've said there or
02:28:27 passage of of time as I've said there or or whatever, it didn't have the same sense of urgency. That was what was perceived at the times it had done previously. Did your use of the word venom reflect
02:28:38 Did your use of the word venom reflect the fact that you regarded the local black community as venomous? No, not at all. And again, and I'll say before, this is this is intelligence based on my reporting. That's not something I didn't write this report
02:28:50 something I didn't write this report myself.
02:28:52 myself. Uh but based upon your written report? Yes, I I Yes, but I Venom, you know, that's isn't as you described it there. Last sentence. It is anticipated that
02:29:03 Last sentence. It is anticipated that the picket will be small in number but loud and excited.
02:29:10 This is a picket to remember a man who had died in police custody 6 months earlier.
02:29:18 earlier. Mhm.
02:29:19 Mhm. Why did you choose the word excited? I I don't remember. But it' be vocal. I mean loud. Of course it's a picket. Um, but obviously they'd be as anticipated
02:29:30 but obviously they'd be as anticipated they'd be shouting and making themselves known. That's the whole point of it, not just sit there silent vigil. Did you regard the local black community as excitable?
02:29:41 as excitable? Me? No, not specifically. No, I don't know why that word's in there. Was there a view within the SDS uh that when
02:29:53 there a view within the SDS uh that when it came to dealing with black justice campaigns
02:29:58 campaigns uh you were dealing with people who were excitable
02:30:05 excitable and venomous? No, I think um in as as I've been said earlier and in that earlier report, the main problem for
02:30:17 earlier report, the main problem for these family type groups were being um not infiltrator is the wrong word, but they were sort of attracting the attention of the mainstream left-wing groups that was resented.
02:30:30 groups that was resented. Um so no, that's not how I would have described it. Did you become aware of the inquest verdict?
02:30:39 verdict? No, I still don't know what it was. The inquiry's understanding is that the verdict returned was one of unlawful killing.
02:30:48 killing. Okay.
02:30:52 Can we take that down please and have up C192
02:30:56 C192 721 323
02:31:04 page six please.
02:31:09 This appears to have come from a I'm afraid a corrupted file, but it appears to be a report dated the 22nd of March, 1996,
02:31:22 uh, which says, "Listed here are the names of the current members of the steering committee of the Anti-Nazi League, which meets infrequently
02:31:33 League, which meets infrequently and usually in the House of Commons." And then it lists a number of names. Is this your reporting?
02:31:45 Is this your reporting? I don't recognize it because I had no insight into the anti-Nazi league. Two of the names on the list are members of parliament, Bernie Grant and Peter Hayne. They're recorded as MP and it
02:31:59 Hayne. They're recorded as MP and it says House of Commons instead of the file references and addresses of the other people mentioned. Did you understand there to be a
02:32:11 Did you understand there to be a convention in the way that one reported on members of parliament? A convention in what how it was worded or the fact that they were being No, I think I don't rec I haven't seen this
02:32:24 think I don't rec I haven't seen this report before. I don't I don't know where this comes from, but in terms of yes, if somebody there was a a member of parliament, a Labour MP or something at a meeting, you could report on them, but
02:32:36 a meeting, you could report on them, but and say that they were there uh and that that would be it. What happened to that report later on? I have no idea. I had no control over that. But just because that person happened to be a member of
02:32:48 that person happened to be a member of parliament wouldn't mean that you would leave them out of a report saying that you'd seen them at an event. No. Can we take that document down now? Can we have up from tab B2728967?
02:33:08 This is the SDS annual report for the financial year 1995 1996. Could we go to page seven please?
02:33:25 At the bottom of the page, it says anarchism, community-based pressure groups, and Republican sympathizers. Um, that is referring to your
02:33:36 Um, that is referring to your deployment, isn't it? I've never seen this document before. I'm just
02:33:40 I'm just Okay. Well, in that case, I'll give you a moment to read it carefully. If you could read the rest of the page carefully, please.
02:34:11 Okay. And it goes uh over the page.
02:34:32 It does um appear to be a reference to your deployment, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. Uh how accurate is it uh in reflecting what you were doing? was a very general
02:34:45 what you were doing? was a very general broadbased thing. Um, and as you know, I said I hadn't seen this report before, but presum the the office management, but I
02:34:57 presum the the office management, but I don't know where this is disseminated to, probably to higher ranks within the um in special branch, but they're going to always paint a much more floury and involved picture because they're
02:35:09 involved picture because they're impressing their superiors. So yes, I mean in general terms I can recognize parts of my deployment strategy there, but yeah, it's very wide uh wide brushed
02:35:20 but yeah, it's very wide uh wide brushed and non-specific. If we have a look at the the bottom third of the next paragraph so that we've got the
02:35:31 we've got the um the words the group to which the SDS officer is affiliated has in consequence of the above been involved in an organizational or stewarding capacity in most of the justice campaign seen over
02:35:45 most of the justice campaign seen over the past year involvement in such issues for example the Brian Douglas campaign at an organizational level inevitably produces high-grade intelligence of the
02:35:57 produces high-grade intelligence of the aims and tactics of generally volatile and outraged groups. Well, I've never seen that before and it's a very flattering assessment of my
02:36:08 it's a very flattering assessment of my uh uh capabilities. The the the truth of it is is yes, I was involved in the Brian Douglas campaign to the extent that we discussed earlier. Um the rest
02:36:19 that we discussed earlier. Um the rest of it is um I don't recognize that at all. Now
02:36:23 all. Now so the statement involved in an organizational or stewarding capacity in most of the justice campaign seen over the past year I'm understanding you to be saying is either an exaggeration or a
02:36:36 be saying is either an exaggeration or a fabrication. I wouldn't say it was a fabrication. I think yes certainly the Brian Douglas campaign and also the the fact I was in the stewards there but I think this to extrapolate that into
02:36:47 I think this to extrapolate that into the activist involvement throughout the years a bit much so I don't think that's have they taken your involvement in the Brian Douglas campaign and the Ibrahim say campaign and uh inflated it uh to
02:37:00 say campaign and uh inflated it uh to suggest that you were in most of the justice campaign seen over the past year that's how I read it
02:37:11 Involvement in such issues, for example, the Brian Douglas campaign at an organizational level inevitably produces high-grade intelligence of the aims and tactics of generally volatile and
02:37:23 tactics of generally volatile and outraged groups. Can we take it then that that's uh based on an assessment of those supporting the Brian Douglas campaign and the Ibrahim say campaign?
02:37:36 campaign and the Ibrahim say campaign? Well, I think you'd have to ask the author of that. Um the as we discussed before with the Brian Douglas campaign, the my sets assessments were based on on that report and that report alone. the
02:37:48 that report and that report alone. the the rest of it is very sort of this has echo this resonates, doesn't it, with use of words such as excited and venomous.
02:37:59 and venomous. Well, exactly. Yeah, it's uh No, it's not I don't it's not the language I I didn't write in. I don't recognize that that sort of language either. So, no, I I can't really comment on what was going
02:38:12 I can't really comment on what was going through the author's mind. Does this language in truth represent the institutional view of black justice campaigns? You're asking for my opinion on that.
02:38:23 You're asking for my opinion on that. I'm asking for your uh knowledge from having been there. Well, I I'm no I I I don't know how management and those people who weren't involved directly in
02:38:34 people who weren't involved directly in the SDS itself, how they make their decisions based on on whatever views they have or you know of these organizations based on their
02:38:45 of these organizations based on their own knowledge or on the reports that we send up. I don't know what the the views are on that. So, I can't really answer that question though. Just one moment.
02:39:02 We've got the names now for the people involved in the smoke bomb report. I'm going to have those passed up to you so we can go back to that.
02:39:14 If we can take this document down, please, and have up C83246068.
02:39:35 Okay. I I don't recognize the first name there. Obviously, I know who this the second name is. Um, sorry.
02:39:51 Thank you. And if my learned friends can be shown this as well, please if we could have expanded the um
02:40:03 if we could have expanded the um two paragraphs at the bottom
02:40:09 uh and return to the reference to homemade smoke bombs. And perhaps if we zoom out and just look at the description in case that helps
02:40:21 at the description in case that helps you with the identity of the person, female, IC1, 5 foot five, slim with blonde, dyed dreadlocks, who wore wore crusty type clothing and combat fatigues, etc.
02:40:33 fatigues, etc. Uh, smoke bombs. Can you help us with the source of your information for this? on that particular one. It would been the second name on that uh piece of
02:40:45 the second name on that uh piece of paper you just shown me. And are we talking of smoke bombs of the kind that are intended to generate smoke?
02:40:53 smoke? That was my understanding of it. Yes. Were you in possession of information which would help us to understand whether or not these devices were
02:41:04 whether or not these devices were hazardous in any ways or would we need an expert for that? Well, you need an expert for that. And again, this is secondhand information from the second person uh on that. This
02:41:15 from the second person uh on that. This was an area that I it was an incidental piece of information which obviously given the context or it might be relevant. They were this person wasn't involved in any of the areas that I was.
02:41:26 involved in any of the areas that I was. So is
02:41:27 So is no suggestion that these devices are intended to harm anybody. No, as it was at completely at face value. Um, there was nothing like that
02:41:38 value. Um, there was nothing like that in implied to me anyway. And if we could go over the page,
02:41:53 we will see uh at towards the end of the second paragraph uh that it appears that she was um seeking to encourage her then partner uh to enroll as a security
02:42:06 partner uh to enroll as a security officer at Newbury in order to obtain information. Do you know whether or not that information would have been shared uh with the security company? I have no idea at all. I say that was a
02:42:19 I have no idea at all. I say that was a completely different feel from what I I put it in there because I picked it up. What became of it and if that was developed in any way, I have absolutely no idea.
02:42:28 no idea. Take that down now, please, and go back to the annual report. Um tab B27 728967
02:42:41 bottom of page eight please running over to the top of page nine.
02:42:51 So this is picking up where we left off and you'll see now why I digress for a moment. In a recent development, the SDS officer has uncovered a squatter anarchist in Hackne who is busily
02:43:04 anarchist in Hackne who is busily engaged making homemade smoke bombs for use in the ongoing Newbury bypass. The matter is under active investigation. That's a reference to the intelligence
02:43:16 That's a reference to the intelligence we've just been looking at, isn't it? Understood. Yeah. Well, appears to be. Yes. And if we um go over to the next page, please
02:43:31 top paragraph on that page. After only one year of this facet of the SDS operation, it is quite apparent that there is a rich seam of intelligence
02:43:44 there is a rich seam of intelligence relevant to public order, criminal and terrorist matters to be exploited. We've been through uh your reporting in
02:43:57 We've been through uh your reporting in the first year of your operation. uh rich seam of intelligence on terrorist matters
02:44:10 terrorist matters that that is not a fair description of uh your first year's deployment is it? I would have to agree with you there. Yes.
02:44:19 Yes. Rich seam of intelligence relevant to criminal activities likewise. No.
02:44:28 No. And although there is some reporting on public order matters, it's a bit of a stretch to describe
02:44:39 it's a bit of a stretch to describe um the people you were infiltrating in that year as providing a rich seam of public order intelligence,
02:44:50 rich seam of public order intelligence, isn't it?
02:44:51 isn't it? Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. That is a bit of a stretch.
02:44:56 Can we go to page 12, please?
02:45:11 Uh there is a summary of your deployment uh there. Uh and the penultimate paragraph says in addition he had cultivated contacts with Pyra
02:45:24 cultivated contacts with Pyra supporters in London. Uh can I help can you help me with what is meant by Pyra supporters? We've been
02:45:37 is meant by Pyra supporters? We've been through
02:45:39 through your intelligence. The reality, however it's described by your managers, is people who sympathized uh with
02:45:50 uh with uh the use of terrorist violence in order to secure a united Ireland is the high point of it. Yes, there were support groups
02:46:02 Yes, there were support groups certainly, but I think at that stage I'd made contact with uh Red Action. So I would say that they were not they had
02:46:14 would say that they were not they had obviously supported them in the past. So they weren't just casual or certainly the attitude of that organization wasn't like that of say the prisoners campaigns etc.
02:46:26 etc. Can we take that document down now please and go to tab C98 246172.
02:46:43 This is a report 16th of April 1996 uh about a loyalist march through central London stewarded by combat 18
02:46:54 central London stewarded by combat 18 planned for Saturday the 27th of April. Uh it is understood that three pipe bands from Ireland will take part and then there is intelligence about a
02:47:07 then there is intelligence about a redirection point about AFA's plan to mobilize
02:47:12 mobilize and then it describes um in paragraph three that it is accepted that a fullscale attack on the march will not be possible. They will have to be
02:47:23 be possible. They will have to be content with picking off isolated targets as and when they present themselves. Can you help us first of all with how you obtained this intelligence?
02:47:35 with how you obtained this intelligence? Um, that would well it would have been from AFA. Um, I attended I'm trying to get the the dates organized, but I attended an AFA
02:47:47 dates organized, but I attended an AFA meeting. Um it was a big meeting out in uh in South I think it was a lot of different contacts uh from around London and elsewhere and it was discussed there
02:48:00 and elsewhere and it was discussed there that this this was the uh the likely uh outlook on that particular day but then again that sort of meeting you're chatting to other contacts as well and
02:48:12 chatting to other contacts as well and so it's an amalgamation of that but that was essentially how the day was going to pan
02:48:20 the final sentence of paragraph three. Is that your opinion or was that something that people were actually saying they were going to do?
02:48:32 actually saying they were going to do? That's what they'll do. If if in this case combat 18 who were the stewards type of group, if as is consistent with
02:48:43 type of group, if as is consistent with their attitude all the time, you stop fascism wherever it pops up and if someone is a fascist as an opportunity to beat them into the ground, then that's what will be done uh in any
02:48:55 that's what will be done uh in any opportunity and try not to get arrested in the process. That was normal policy. Were you at um this demonstration? Yes.
02:49:06 Yes. Can you help us with whether or not there was any disorder? Yes, there was. Can you tell us uh in your own words what happened? Uh well, on a particular occasion, um
02:49:21 Uh well, on a particular occasion, um don't think they could get near the march. There were very few, as I remember, combat 18 members around on the street because the inference
02:49:32 on the street because the inference being that they were expected to to be opposed quite robustly. Um, information was then received by I don't know who that a group of them had gone into a
02:49:46 that a group of them had gone into a pub. Um I can't remember exactly where it was but it was in central London just off the route of the um um of the march itself gone it barricaded themselves into a pub. They'd been discovered and
02:49:58 into a pub. They'd been discovered and the pub was attacked. Who was the pub attacked by? Uh well, it was AFA members trying to get into where
02:50:10 was AFA members trying to get into where they believed Combat 18 and some members of the bands were drinking including you. I I was in the area. I wouldn't actually attack the pub. No, but I did see it.
02:50:23 attack the pub. No, but I did see it. Was Mr. Metaf involved? Didn't see Metaf at all that day, which was, you know, predictable. Mr. Headedley, I don't know if he was there or not.
02:50:34 I don't know if he was there or not. Well, he certainly wasn't involved in that particular aspect. Uh what happened? Um the I think the certainly the I
02:50:46 Um the I think the certainly the I remember the front window of the pub went in. There was a hail of beer bottles, pine pots flying out of the place. I think some members managed to get in to the pub itself that were
02:50:57 get in to the pub itself that were beaten back by the people inside. And eventually when the police did arrive, there were some fairly nasty injuries to both sides as I remember.
02:51:09 both sides as I remember. And I just want to be unequivocal about this violence initiated on this occasion by the far left as I recall it. Yes. Because that's where they believed that the uh combat
02:51:21 where they believed that the uh combat 18 people were. Can we take that document down now? Tab C103
02:51:29 C103 246252.
02:51:43 This is a 14th of May 1996 report on a planned 19th of June 96 public meeting.
02:51:55 planned 19th of June 96 public meeting. Uh it is a public meeting in support of Malcolm
02:52:01 Malcolm Kennedy
02:52:03 Kennedy says that up to 100 people may come. Disorder is unlikely. Could we look at the text please?
02:52:16 I'll give you a moment to familiarize yourself with that again.
02:52:27 Okay. Yeah. Can you help us with in outline um what uh the Malcolm Kennedy campaign was
02:52:38 uh the Malcolm Kennedy campaign was about?
02:52:39 about? Well, as I understood it, I mean, Malcolm Kennedy himself, I think he did come to a meeting, address the meeting. Was the first time I'd ever heard of this particular case, but he was uh
02:52:50 this particular case, but he was uh apparently convicted. Well, as I've said there, convicted of murdering his cellmate in Hammersmith Police Station um and and claiming that it wasn't him. That was essentially the the event.
02:53:04 That was essentially the the event. I don't know when what date that particular thing happened. Does this ring any bells? Malcolm Kennedy was in a police cell with Patrick Quinn. Mr. Quinn was murdered.
02:53:16 Patrick Quinn. Mr. Quinn was murdered. Uh the issue was who murdered Mr. Quinn? Uh, was it Malcolm Kennedy or Yes, I remember the the background. Or was it the police officer? Exactly. Yeah.
02:53:28 Exactly. Yeah. So, uh, would this meet the test for an anti- police campaign? I in broad terms, yes. It was an an action against the police because of the
02:53:39 action against the police because of the police, etc., etc. So, yes, to want to group it into a general um intelligence group. Yes. But this was a particular um an event that was quite not unique
02:53:53 um an event that was quite not unique but it was important for the Colin Mo Center because obviously there was a I I understood there was a personal connection um in that I don't know if if it was Smith but certainly Metaf uh knew
02:54:06 it was Smith but certainly Metaf uh knew Malcolm Kennedy and spoke to him regularly. So and I think that I think they published a book or on this as well. So it was it was quite a well-known story. I have to say until I
02:54:17 well-known story. I have to say until I got involved with the Colin Roach Center, I'd never actually heard of it. What interest did you take in uh this campaign?
02:54:29 Me personally, well, I've reported on it because it was an event that was being organized by the Corin Colin Roach Center. I wasn't in involved in the campaign in as much as organizing
02:54:40 campaign in as much as organizing anything on on behalf of it. Um it was something that was the center was involved in and I reported on that. That's it. Did there come a time when uh Mr.
02:54:51 Did there come a time when uh Mr. Kennedy was on bail? I don't know.
02:54:58 Did you give Mr. Kennedy lifts? Not that I can remember. No. No. Did you talk to him about his case? No. No, not I can't remember.
02:55:10 No. No, not I can't remember. Are you sure? Well, I'm as sure as I can be, but I know didn't have I would have met him probably at a meeting when he came to address that meeting. Uh, but I can't remember beyond that. No.
02:55:24 remember beyond that. No. Did you report on Mr. Kennedy's case? in as much that this is the the campaign around it. Yeah. Because it featured
02:55:35 around it. Yeah. Because it featured quite heavily and it was a common thing that was raised in the Colin Mo Center meetings.
02:55:42 meetings. Do you know what was done with your reporting on the Malcolm Kennedy campaign?
02:55:46 campaign? Absolutely no idea at all. No. And any reporting on Mr. Kennedy himself?
02:55:51 himself? No.
02:55:54 The inquiry has heard evidence to the effect that it was thought that you recall that you had given him lifts and spoke to him about his case. Do you have
02:56:07 spoke to him about his case. Do you have any reason to disbelieve that evidence? I don't re you know I I had I was one of the if not only the person there who had a vehicle. It it's possible I I gave him a lift home or whatever, but I had no
02:56:20 a lift home or whatever, but I had no reason to talk to him about his case. Could
02:56:25 Could we take that down now and have tab C106246264?
02:56:37 This is a report dated the 14th of May 1996.
02:56:42 1996. It's about the East London anti-fascist action uh planning. Could you have a look at paragraph one uh with a particular focus
02:56:54 particular focus on after you've read that the uh source comment
02:57:18 Okay.
02:57:50 Okay. Yeah. Uh, were you at that meeting? Uh, yes, I would have been. Yeah. Was Mr. Headedley? I can't remember if he was there. I as I was the sort of the delegate who would
02:58:01 was the sort of the delegate who would went to East London Affeades. I can't remember if he was there or not. Was Mr. to me. No, Metaf wouldn't have gone there. Can you help us in terms of plans for
02:58:13 Can you help us in terms of plans for actions? What was discussed? Well, similar to as I I've said here, um they'd get information about the BNP
02:58:25 they'd get information about the BNP activists or supporters in the particular area. In this case, it was East London. um find out where they were, what their movements were, and which would come down to intelligence
02:58:37 which would come down to intelligence gathering in that respect, and if possible, um attack them if they were still known to be, uh active members of the BNP or whoever it was.
02:58:49 the BNP or whoever it was. It's worded to suggest it's intelligence gathering first and then there's a pregnant silence as to what will happen next. Was there any discussion as to what would happen next?
02:59:00 what would happen next? Well, I don't remember that, but again, this is a sort of this is aspirational at this stage. Um, they had the they were lacking members to do this, but this is what they did. But it it stands by the, you know, the AFA code of
02:59:14 by the, you know, the AFA code of conduct, you know, find out who they are and beat them into the ground simply as that. Nothing. What actually happened after the meeting?
02:59:22 meeting? After that particular meeting? Yeah. Did they to pick up your last answer? Did they uh pick pick anybody up and beat them into the ground? Not that I can uh remember. No, they were short of they were it was a small
02:59:34 were short of they were it was a small group and I I moved. I was I went across the North London AFA at the time. But that was what again this is all important stuff because for them is to
02:59:46 important stuff because for them is to keep the members such as they were active and involved and this was a part and parcel of that. I'm getting the feeling of all talk and no action. Is that what it was? Well, possibly so in this case, yes. But
02:59:59 Well, possibly so in this case, yes. But and not, you know, to give them their credit, they they were conscious of the need to keep on top of the the background of confronting fascists in or in East London in this case, even though
03:00:11 in East London in this case, even though they were quite thin on the ground or visibly. So, anyway, can we take that down and have up C127246635?
03:00:22 Uh, we're back to reporting on Dr. Smith. This is now the 17th of September, 1996. If we could expand the text, I'll give you a moment to read it.
03:00:51 Yeah. Okay. Uh, all of this activity you're reporting entirely lawful. As far as I was concerned, it was Yes. It was useful intelligence and I passed it on as such. And the defendant um information service
03:01:06 And the defendant um information service would fit the definition of an anti- police um activity. Again, we're talking in general terms here, but it was yeah, the the most of the work that was being done in my from my point of view was complaints against
03:01:19 my point of view was complaints against the police. The penultimate line seeks to expose inverted commas corrupt police officers.
03:01:30 police officers. Why inverted commas? Uh, not my report. I didn't write it. By this stage, corruption at Stoke Newington Police Station was well known, wasn't it?
03:01:41 wasn't it? Well, apparently. So I mean I I I think in general as I said earlier there were issues at Sto Police Station which was known throughout the police service. The details of it I wasn't aware of until I
03:01:54 details of it I wasn't aware of until I got involved with the Colin Mo Center. When it came to actions against the police was there a sense that the courts were getting it wrong. What in my opinion or the SDS opinion?
03:02:05 What in my opinion or the SDS opinion? Let's start with your opinion. Well not at all has nothing to do with me
03:02:08 me within the SDS. Again, nothing to do with it. It's something you can't influence. You can report on it. What the courts do is down at them and you can have an opinion though. I could have an opinion. Yes. But I'm a
03:02:19 I could have an opinion. Yes. But I'm a police officer. What was your opinion? Because the police can do no wrong in that sense, but I that's an opinion I would but you know, frivolous, but that's what I wouldn't share that with anybody.
03:02:27 anybody. Well, maybe not frivolous. Um, the view the police can do no wrong would explain the use of inverted commas.
03:02:38 the use of inverted commas. Was there
03:02:40 Was there a view
03:02:42 a view uh that these campaigns were leading to police officers being produced? Well, in this case, it would certainly you'd have to ask the author of this
03:02:53 you'd have to ask the author of this particular report, but I think you know it's almost you're in a polarized position as a police officer where everyone hates you. That's accepted. So
03:03:05 everyone hates you. That's accepted. So yes, you know, we are there is a them and us general attitude and I think that just reflects that really. I wasn't in a position to we weren't going into it in such detail that we'd
03:03:16 going into it in such detail that we'd know what the ins and outs of individual cases were. That was just a a general attitude.
03:03:23 Uh given his track record, it must be anticipated that such an organization would prove to be highly successful.
03:03:34 would prove to be highly successful. Uh
03:03:34 Uh yeah,
03:03:35 yeah, factually correct. Yeah.
03:03:38 Yeah. And a good thing. Yeah. Clearly he was good at what he did. No two ways about that. Yeah. Not good at what he did, but exposing corrupt police officers is a good thing.
03:03:51 corrupt police officers is a good thing. Okay. Yeah. Well, if if corruption exists, yes, of course it is. No one's condoning corruption. No. And I sense in your answer some doubts about whether there really had been.
03:04:02 about whether there really had been. Well, I think it's, you know, it's a very wide brush, isn't it? These are, you know, bismerched. You're not just single police officers. It's the police in general, which covers a lot of very innocent, hardworking police officers.
03:04:13 innocent, hardworking police officers. Undoubtedly, there were corrupt officers. We know that. Why was Dr. Smith reported on long after he'd left the HDCA? He as I've said previously um he's his
03:04:27 He as I've said previously um he's his name gets mentioned and this would again this has all come from metaf um it's worthy of of reporting who he was. Was the fact he had an RF file um a
03:04:39 Was the fact he had an RF file um a factor
03:04:40 factor possibly. Yeah. Yeah. As best you can recall. Is there any missing reporting about Dr. Smith from myself? Yes.
03:04:49 Yes. No. I mean this is all just hearsay isn't it from from uh Metcov but no I mean these are just tip bits I picked up as and when he deemed deemed it necessary to chat usually in a
03:05:00 deemed it necessary to chat usually in a pub or something like that. Sir may we uh and well may I invite you to rise for the day? Yes indeed. And we will resume at 10:00 tomorrow.